Hello and welcome to episode one of the interior design podcast. We're here, we're here. Cheryl
and I, we're not going to do a catch up for the week this week because
we have been working on this episode for quite a few weeks but what we are going to do is
we're going to have a little chat about the psychology of colour which is this week's
subject. Yes. So I think it was really interesting, so a few weeks ago obviously we caught up
with Karen and she had some really interesting points on the psychology of colour. Which
we'll share with you after this. We just wanted to try and kind of summarise our thoughts
I guess on psychology of colour and how you can use that, how you use that in design.
I suppose what is the psychology of colour is probably a good question to answer initially.
It's the study of hues as a determination of human behaviour. Colour influences perceptions
that are not obvious such as the taste of food. Colours have qualities that cause certain
emotions in people. How colour influences individuals may differ depending on age, gender
and culture. Although colour associations can vary contextually between cultures, colour
preferences are thought to be relatively uniform across gender and race. So that's kind of
a very short summary of what it means but it's just such a huge subject. It's massive
and I think that's something that came out from the conversation. We were talking to
Karen for a couple of hours and we touched on it but I don't think it's so vast isn't
it? It's so vast. We've just spoken about whether we discuss certain colours and how
you can use them in design but I think the point I was making Hayley was that it almost
is quite contradictory of what the psychology of colour is about. Rather than looking at
greens for example and saying this week we're going to talk about greens and how you can
use greens in design. This is actually about saying the psychology of colour isn't about
selecting a colour based on what you like or don't like. It's about trying to understand
the space, how you want to create that space, what the use of it is, how you want it to
make you feel and then reflecting. This has all come from the conversation we had with
Karen about how you then, you really have to delve into your own feelings and thoughts
on what makes me feel calm, what makes me feel alive, what is it that you're trying
to create in that space and how do you replicate that and therefore that will dictate what
colours you use. I think that's really relevant to residential and if you're designing your
own space but when you're designing a commercial space or you're designing something else you've
got to look at the culture, you've got to look at the different colours. For example
we're talking about green, green is the colour of money in the USA. This is from Karen's
book. It's also the colour of nature and symbolises the environment. In the East green can symbolise
fertility and new beginnings. It can also represent infidelity. In China to wear a green
hat is an expression that means your wife has been unfaithful to you. In Britain it's
the colour of jealousy. Green eye jealousy was first used by Shakespeare in his play
The Merchant of Venice and in Ireland it's the colour of good luck. Green was the Prophet
Muhammad's favourite colour and is the colour of paradise. In South America though green
is the colour of death. The contrast of that is huge isn't it? That's obviously from her
section of symbolism of colour across the world and I think that goes back to what we
were just saying about culture. As a designer it's not just about looking at the colour
wheel. As Karen was saying it's not just about looking at the colour wheel and saying what
colours go with what. It's about delving so much deeper. So whether it be on a personal
level with a client to try and understand what makes them feel calm and be able to reflect
in a space if they want a space to feel calm, like a bedroom for example, but if you're
working on a commercial project, whether you're working just in the UK or whether you're working
internationally there's so many layers to it isn't there? I think when you're doing a commercial
project for example you have to be, what is your target market? For example I've got an
enquiry at the moment which I think will come in in the next few weeks for a Jewish restaurant.
So my research on that is going to be is there any colours that Jewish people associate with.
And so researching into the colour and what you're doing is really really important. I
think also it kind of goes without saying that there's potentially with any new commercial
project in hospitality that there may be an element of branding that's already been done,
in which case there's probably a lot of information and research that's already been undertaken
from a branding point of view, from a branding exercise that then kind of filters through
into design. It may be that that's not the case so you've kind of got a bit of a task
on your hands to start kind of unraveling and unpicking. I think, do you know what,
I think we should do another, an actual episode on brand because I'm a massive geek on brand
and I think, because we do branding and interior design so what I really love to do is to create
everything in synergy together. But when someone's already got a brand, like you say you can
have a brand identity, you've already got Pantone colours possibly and then you have
to tap into all of that. But also think about what the space is going to be used for. You
might, you know, not, you know, we're doing at the moment we're doing a restaurant where
the brand is orange and navy blue. I'm not going to literally make the whole interior
orange and navy blue. I've got to kind of have a nod to it.
And it's almost like there needs to be an understanding of, okay well why is the branding
orange and blue? Is there some background behind that? You know, has thought been given
to and maybe even, you know, maybe that there hasn't been any consideration given to the
psychology of colour in terms of branding and ultimately branding does filter through
into design and because it's got to, it's got to be cohesive, hasn't it? But that's
a challenge, isn't it? If potentially you've got a brand that's got, you know, that there
is no kind of psychology of colour behind the brand that already exists and that is
already present and it's got, has got some presence, presence in the market. You know,
you've got a brand that's already present in the market and it's got a following. You
are limited to, to what you, what you have.
And also I think that a lot of clients, from my perspective, I mean, I've, I've been given
a light foot for my, one of my projects recently, you know, they're going to spend hundreds
of thousands of pounds on their interior design on their interior fit out. I'm not that expensive
on their interior design. I'm very expensive. But they're going to spend all that money,
but they haven't actually thought about the brand and they've just gone, Oh, I've got
someone to design, design my logo and it's, and it's this, you know, and then, and, and
then you've got to kind of try and go, okay, but you're telling me that you want a green
forest, but your brand is purple. Yeah. Or, you know, and it's really difficult because
if someone isn't invested in, if they don't understand the psychology of color and they
don't understand, they don't value the branding process, they might value the interior design
process, but they are, they do work together. I mean, when I think about the conversation
that we had with Karen and what we learned from her, I mean, I found it very, very interesting
because you know, probably quite naively from a design point of view, I, you know, you,
you look at a color swatch or a fan of colors and you, you know, as she said, you kind of,
the first thing that you think about doing is getting out a color swatch and saying,
okay, well, what colors am I drawn towards? What colors do I like? Do I not like? Never
actually really thinking about why you like that color, what it actually makes you, how
it makes you feel when you look at it. Do you know what I mean? Like I think fundamentally,
and that's why we wanted this to be the first episode really, I think is that it is such
a core part of design. And I, whether it's interior designers as a profession or whether
it's, you know, Joe public, I think that a lot more consideration should be given to
stopping before you even start, as Karen said, before you even start looking at color, stopping,
reflecting on the space, the, the feelings, what you're trying to achieve, the behavior,
yeah, the behavior of what you're doing in that space, how you want it to feel, how you
want it to look natural date, like, you know, things like natural daylight and the context
and the constraints that you've got based around that, that space, whether it's a bedroom,
whether it's a restaurant, whatever it is. I mean, I, I'm sort of thinking about like
when I designed my bedroom, right? So I think about what kind of behavior I want in my bedroom.
I'm not going to go too far into that one. But I really struggled to sleep. So in my
bedroom, I have to have blackout. So I've got blackout curtains, blackout blinds as
well. And I painted my ceiling really dark. I've got like a really lovely sort of warm,
gray, pinky dark color. And I've painted the ceiling and the walls the same color. And
I've got, and I'm not really a massive pink fan, but because I know that pink is kind
of a quite a warm, it sort of makes me feel a little bit looked after. And sort of dusty,
dusty pink really love that. I really love that dusty pink at the moment. I'm kind of
like, right, I'm going to put some pink in here and with sort of white bed sheets and
sort of a bit of gray and it just looks wicked. And I go into my bedroom now and I'm like
really happy. So it's sort of like a little hug when I go in there. And I think for me,
that's in my house, it's like where I've used color to change the behavior. Because my bedroom
was always really light and I always struggled to sleep. And I actually sleep better now
and I feel more like I'm being prepared for sleep when I enter the bedroom.
Probably because like, we should be doing other things as well. Probably though, because
you've considered the, what that space, what you want that space to actually do for you.
Do you know what I mean? I think it's always a difficult one, isn't it? Because I've done
things in the past, like at home that I've got totally wrong. I think I mentioned to
you when we spoke about my lounge and you know, I decided to paint it, I decided to
paint it really dark. I'm a very dark person anyway, as you know. I mean, I thought about
painting it black, but I was like, it's probably a bit extreme. So I went for like, obviously,
you know, very much on trend, this really, really dark blue. All of the walls, all of
the woodwork, like all of the woodwork is all the same color, the backs of doors, all
of the window frames, picture rails, ceiling, everything. And it was really, I mean, I loved
it. It was really cool. The fireplace, all of the fireplace I've painted in the same
color. Really, really cool. But, and it feels like this cocoon. It's like very, very cozy.
And that's great. And I live in an old Victorian house and it's great in the winter, but I
don't use that room. And I don't use it because I'm really...
You use it in the winter.
I don't use it anywhere near as much as I should. And it's because whilst I wanted it
to feel like a cocoon, that's not the right, that's not the right room for it. Because
all of a sudden I found myself feeling quite oppressed by it. I would go in and it was
really oppressive. And even though I have all, you know, my entire wardrobe, as you
know, Haley is black. So, you know, I'm not fearful of dark color. I don't wear any other
color other than black or khaki green, but I like, it was really oppressive. And I thought,
shit, I've totally fucked this right up. So I painted the ceiling out in white again,
just to try and lift it. And it's still, it's better, but it's still not right. And I hadn't
considered that actually, yeah, I thought I wanted that room to be quite cocoony and
snug, but that works really well in certain seasons. Autumn and winter, it's great. So
I put the lights on and it's got a real, like real ambience in there, but I don't use the
space. I don't use it because I find it too much. So I, you know, that's another fucking
job to add to the list, to change it.
And natural daylight, I don't get natural, much natural daylight in there because it's
not, you know, it's not south facing. And, and again, that, you know, stupidly, I kind
of just went gung ho, you know, hell for leather. Oh, that's a great idea and did it. And I
guess it's, you know, it's not a bad thing because you learn from these mistakes, don't
you, as a, as a designer, whether you're doing well, hopefully, you know.
It's great to experiment in your house and then you don't screw it up for a plane.
The, they had a Google, there was a, there was a Google meeting room and I don't know
how factual this is, so don't quote me on it, but I heard that there were, they, because
the color blue is supposed to be productive. Google painted all of their meeting rooms
really like a really, not a bright blue, but like a royal blue. And they had blue lighting
and they went a bit mad with the blue from an interior design perspective. And they actually,
Google actually stopped using it because it was so oppressive. So it, there's, there's
like a, a lot, there's a balance, isn't there? So, you know, that's a really interesting
point though, just really quickly on that. The, you know, the added complexity of, of
design from a, you know, when you're designing in residential, you're designing for a family
or a couple or an individual, you're, you're thinking about two, three, four people. You've
got to think about four people's, you know, thoughts, feelings, how spaces make them feel.
When you start talking about a commercial project, whether it be restaurant, whether
it be office space, working environments, all of a sudden the task as a designer to
try and understand and tick all of the boxes for, you know, a team of 15, 20, 50, a hundred
people, that is a big task to have to be able to, to be able to deliver for every single
person.
You're never going to please everyone, are you?
You're never going to please everyone. That's, that's, you know, it's quite a challenge.
But then that's why you have different venues. That's why you have different types of offices
because you attract a certain type of person. So it's really important to get under the
skin of who is going to be using that space and what they're going to be doing in there.
And, and, and like, so for example, okay, so let's have a look at blue. So Karen's book
says in Japan, blue means fidelity. It's also one of the colors for good luck in the West.
Blue is associated with sadness and feeling low. Hence the phase feeling, feeling blue,
but blue is the color of Krishna in Hinduism and represents love and divine joy. So there's
nothing in there about productivity. So I don't know where that's come from. But yeah,
I always thought blue was quite a productive color, but obviously Karen has very rightly
so corrected me on Googling, on Googling the psychology of color. Um, but yeah, no, it's
just, it's just really fascinating. And it is very, it's so very subjective. And also,
um, you know, just going through Karen's book here, there is so much more to it than just
specific color. And you're talking about blues, greens, yellows, reds. We're not, there are
within that color group, there are so many intensities and tonal levels. So just picking
up on the, what were you talking about blue? So I'm just reading on page one of, um, one
of the pages in Karen's books, you know, she, um, you know, the effects of blue on your
minds depends on the intensity of the tone. Light blue is soothing, which makes it a great
color for sleeping and dreaming. The darker, the more mentally stimulating you'll find
it. So it might help you to focus, boost your concentration. Um, it, regardless of its intensity,
blue will always evoke a mental, a mental reaction. Whereas turquoise is uplifting,
rejuvenating, like there's so many levels to it. Do you know what I mean? Like it isn't
just about a color, about picking a color. It's the color, how that, how that makes you,
how that reacts, how you react to that. And then you have to start thinking about the,
the intensity of that color and the hue of that color. It is massive. I mean, it's so
interesting. I think it's so interesting. It's fascinating. And then things like trends,
like we're, we're talking about sort of, you know, current is really kind of like, well,
why, why are people using color of the year? Like when they don't like it and actually
you've got your color of the year and it is a trend. And you know, from a design perspective,
if you're designing something that's supposed to be on trend and so if you're designing
a bar that people want to go to and it's got to be on trend and that's one of your briefs
from the client, you should be using some colors that are on trend. So looking at the
color of the year would be a natural like draw for that. But if I'm designing something
and I don't like it, it doesn't work. Like I can't make it work. So I think having, it's
just, it's just, it's really, it's so interesting and it's so deep. Like, and like, and Karen
rightly says, you know, it's like going down a rabbit hole. So episode one, our first guest
for the first ever podcast is Karen Haller. Karen works with businesses and design professionals
to use color and design to improve wellbeing, support mental health and create positive
change in the world. Karen is the author of the little book of color, how to use the psychology
of color to transform your life. And we are really excited to bring Karen into the podcast.
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this. I'm really looking forward to hearing what
her thoughts are, because there's a lot of information in this book, not just in terms
of color from a design perspective, but you know, color symbolism of the world, like color
in relationships, color, color in your personality. I mean, there's loads in here. It's very,
it's a cute little book. And yeah, I'm excited. Let's go. Let's do this.
What's the biggest piece of advice that you can give to interior designers about color?
I think that is, is that the world of color does not start and stop at the color wheel.
It seems to be in, and even when I studied interior design, all we got was, I think half
a day on the color wheel. And I can understand that a lot of teachers, when they have so
much to teach in the curriculum, and when you open up color, it is a Pandora's box,
right? So what do you teach that's very condensed, very contained, and there's a kind of a start
and a finish to it. And so the color wheel is something that's very, very contained and
very small. And you can, you can teach the color wheel in 10 minutes, actually. Once
you start going down the color rabbit hole. It is a rabbit hole, and it's a wonderful
rabbit hole that you can just dive and dive and dive. And if you want to make color your
specialty in your business, step, step, you know, step away from the color wheel and see
what else is out there. And you will just, it will be a lifetime of learning. So even
though this is my, you know, color psychology is my area of specialty, I will never ever
stop learning because it's to do with humans and behavior and how we react, how we respond,
what's going on in society. That is always shifting and always changing. So our relationship
to color is shifting and changing. And the colors that we need and what that means and
our response to color. And I am, I'm learning all the time. So if you really love color,
then let's say put the color wheel just to one side and just dive in and the most like
exciting, amazing world will open up to you. I guess though it's like anything, isn't it?
That there's ultimately, there's a fun, like, you know, the color wheel is kind of classed
as this fundamental, you know, it's the kind of starting point. It's like kind of the building
blocks almost of design in terms of color is how far you then want to, and you know,
if you, whether you're an interior designer, you know, by profession or whether you're
just interested in, you know, doing a project at home, and we've spoken about this before,
is kind of how far you want to kind of take it and how far you want to push yourself,
you know, in terms of professionally, I think, you know, really, really good designers should
be able to, you know, understand the fundamentals, but ultimately be able to push even harder
than that. And we've spoken about this, about thinking outside the box and pushing it as
far as you possibly can. I did just, Curran, want to ask you, you mentioned earlier about
the fact that you wrote the book because you wanted to get the world to fall in love with
color again. Why, can I ask, in your opinion, what do you think, why do you think we found
ourselves in a position where people weren't, were scared of color or were everything was
very, very bland? Like, why do you think, why do you think we've got to that point?
And we're still there now a little bit, I think, you know, I almost feel, I actually
feel like there's a part of, you know, people maybe, people want to be accepted. So, you
know, it's kind of this, you know, not keeping up with the Joneses, but that whole concept
of, oh, well, I'll do what Iber's done, or I'll do what they've done over there. And,
you know, without being maybe as original as they could be. And I think it takes courage
to really push yourself to the, you know, to the limits and push your boundaries in
certain color. But yeah, that was my, my thought earlier was why do you think that we found
ourselves in a position where people were scared?
With us as human beings, and this still comes back from our caveman times. If you think
back then, put yourself in that position. We, we lived in clans, we lived in groups.
And if you did something in that group, and the group didn't agree, you were pushed out
of the group. Now back then, that meant that would have meant that you couldn't survive,
because it would have been death, because you would have been on your own. So this,
the need to belong, and the need to be a part of a group and part of a community and not
be ostracized and not be cast out. We still have that in us. Some of our biggest, biggest
fears are being judged, not being accepted, not not belonging, and not being accepted
by our, our peers, our friends, our family, our social group, our community, etc. There
are people that don't care about that. And we're at a point now that we can survive on
our own, you know, and we aren't, we aren't, we aren't meant to be alone. We are, we are
meant to be in communities, we are meant to, you know, we're not, we're not hermits, we're
not, we're not, you know, everyone wanting to be isolated. But the biggest thing is that
we want to belong, we want to feel accepted, and we want to ultimately be loved. That's
the ultimate thing for human beings, because the two polar opposites is fear or love, right?
And everything else is in between those two things. So if we want to be accepted, we look
to see what our community is doing or what our friends doing. Therefore, the Keeping
Up With The Joneses, therefore going to the dinner party and saying, Oh, I've got, you
know, elephant's breath on my wall. Oh, yes, so do I. Do you know what I mean? Because
they were that that was the dinner party conversation at that time. So people were thinking, Oh,
I'm feeling accepted, because I've got this color, or I've got this design style in my
home, like other people that I admire, other people that I want acceptance from. And therefore,
we are getting our needs met from outside external to us. This is also what trends do.
Trends, if you follow a trend, you are accepted and you belong to a group of people that you
don't even know. Like when people queue up at two o'clock in the morning to get their
latest iPhone, they believe and feel that they are a part of a community of millions
of other people that they don't even know. But that's enough for them to feel like they
belong. I often will do everything that we think everyone else will agree with in order
to be liked and order to be judged, which is something that happens from childhood,
you know, until the day we die, that can happen. I would just like to hear an example of a
challenging situation you've been in, whether it be with a designer or whether it be with
an end user, with a client that you're working with directly, just to try and get a better
understanding of, you know, in layman's terms. I had a client and this was the initial briefing
meeting that we had. They didn't know what they wanted to do. I followed this process
and we came to the conclusion that this is what we were going to do.
So what I will share and something that helped me put my whole process together and my whole
framework. When I first started, I would sit down with the clients and start asking them,
you know, what, you know, after the whole rapport building and all the, you know, so
that that initial side, when I started, I talked about color very early on and I would
show them, you know, ask them what colors they like, what colors they don't like. I
would show them fan decks of color thinking great, because then I can whittle it down
and I can start getting an idea of the color palette. And I realized that was the biggest
mistake. And it took me a few times to realize it was that was the biggest, biggest mistake
to make. As soon as I started showing them colors, because they were becoming so emotionally
connected because we, when we see color, we are already having an emotional experience.
It's like when, you know, we go into any shop, any restaurant, going into anyone's home.
That's why people straight away are emotionally connecting. And I couldn't and they, they
went down this rabbit hole of, oh, I like this color, I don't like this color, this
color reminds me of this. And I couldn't get them, I couldn't get them back up to do the
rest of the, the, the consultation. They were, they were stuck in this. This is why I now
don't talk about color when I am speaking to them. And why I ask them lots of questions
that inform me about color and inform me actually about them and their personality. Karen, what
is your favorite color and why? Inside the book, you will see that there is an orange,
and that's a marigold orange of a marigold flower. And I've actually got marigold flowers
in the garden. I thought I must pick one to show. That is my favorite marigold orange
is my favorite color. So quite often when people say, oh, what's my favorite color?
And they, you know, and the someone might say pink or green or blue, really go down
to the specific color, because it's not just any orange, it is absolutely that marigold
orange. In color psychology terms, the positive is all about fun and playfulness. And it's
that childlike mischievous. Now every color has a positive and adverse. And a lot of people
see orange as being very flippant and very childish and not to be taken seriously. And
so sometimes when people get very annoyed with the color orange or the color orange
being around that sometimes that they won't take it seriously. So they might not take
a brand seriously or, you know, they might say I have an orange personality. And they
might just think we all just too silly and not growing up and you're really childish.
And I'm just like, that's okay. Yeah, when I do business, I'm I keep that I keep I keep
her in a box, right? She's in a box. But soon as I'm allowed, I can bring her out. She's
out. But I'm not like that when I work with corporates, my work with brands, when I work
with, you know, clients, you know, if I work with kids, I would, because it would be appropriate.
But that color comes out. And it also reminds me not to take things too seriously. You know,
orange flowers or something very small orange in the house, like I don't have a lots of
around me. That just reminds me just to lighten up and to bring more fun in and not not to
take things too seriously. Yeah, so that's what might that color means to me.
So and so going back to what we can teach designers, what what do you think the biggest
faux pas designers make regarding color?
Um, I think I think this is a subconscious thing was that we can put our own preferences
and meaning into what our client is saying. So for instance, if our client is saying,
Oh, I'd like a living room that was really relaxed and calming. If we don't find out
and really dig into, but if we don't, you know, explore under that, and okay, well,
what does calming mean to you? What does calming look like? How would I know that if I did,
this is the question, one of the questions I do ask for this room to be calming for you,
what would it need to look like for it to become for you? Because calming for you is
likely be different calming for me. But if I hear you might have your own version of
calming and your own version of what relax means, and your client has just said those
two words and you go, yet got it, I know what it means. You might not realize that you've
actually put your own version of that onto it, because some people's idea of calming
is your idea of stimulating and your idea of probably noisy. But some people can live
in spaces because of their personality, it can be still quite lively and vivid, but
for them, it's calming. But for me, I'd be exhausted in it. But then it's not it's not
it's not for me to go, this isn't a calming space. It is. If you think if this is calming
for you, then we will design around this.
You mentioned earlier, when you were explaining the book, Karen, that that this book naturally
evolved into a kind of a bit of a Bible for designers, you actually wanted this to be
accessible to everyone, didn't you? You wanted to just, you know, a book that was that should
read it to understand colour. It's great if you have got if you can get an interior designer
on board. But if you obviously just at home and you've got a new project, a new scheme,
you know, you're redecorating the lounge or the kitchen or whatever, whatever. If people
are not in a position to instruct an interior designer to assist with choosing and advising
on colour, whether that be a designer or yourself, what advice would you give to the general
public? Because I think a lot of people struggle with this if they can't if they cannot take
on the professional services of an interior designer. I get it a lot with friends that
will message me and say, help. And they'll be on the wall of them saying, we don't know
what colour, what colour, what colour should we go for? And I'll go around and I'll have
a chat with them. And obviously, the beauty of that is that I know them. So I know who
they are. I know a bit about their personality. I feel like it's always a case of do you is
it about trying to understand a client's personality, to be able to understand what feels calming,
what feels exciting, what feels stimulating, which you can then directly reflect into colour
psychology potentially. How does somebody when they're doing it on their own, get to
that point where they fully understand what makes them tick? What is it that gets them
excited or gets them or, you know, allows them to feel relaxed? So this is personal
development. This is what we do for the rest of our lives is exploring discovering who
we are. This is exactly why this book this I was going to say read the book because this
is the book is exactly what you said this. So when I wrote when I was writing this book,
and the whole time I'm writing it, I'm just thinking, it's got to be more than colour.
This book just can't be about colour. And I was three quarters of the way through and
I went, Oh, my god, this isn't a book about colour at all. This is a book about self expression.
Colour is just the vehicle. So at the very beginning, when you read the introduction,
you will see, and there's there's one paragraph in there that still makes me tear up because
it is it is all about who we are as people. When we can connect to ourselves and we get
clearer and we all the the stuff all the negative self belief talk all the stuff that we have
going on in our head all this negative talk, as we clear all of that, we get clearer and
clearer to who we are. And then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, because we
we are using colour as a as a way of expressing who we are from the inside out. And that's
what and colour is just a vehicle for that. There's many other you know, when I say vehicle,
people do that expression through music, they do it through food, they do it through sport,
you know, I mean, there's there's there's there's a number of universal languages that
you don't need to say a word, you know, you don't need to speak and colour is one of those
universal languages that doesn't matter where you are in the world. It is it is something
that we connect to. That's what I would say to you is to read because when you read the
book, you'll go now and get what she's saying. There's little frameworks in here. There's
little exercises, there's, you know, little processes. And this is this that that's exactly
why this book was written is to get people to start to discover who they are to to the
amount of emails that every single day on Instagram, I get a private message of people
saying, My God, your book has absolutely changed my life. And I say, Well, that's great. But
it's you. It's you that that's changed. I've had people read this and just go, Well, I
thought it'd be more on interior design. Oh, I oh, it's doesn't really tell me anything.
But they but they're people who, who misunderstood what the book is about. Yeah. And that's fine.
And then other people just go, gosh, this is life changing. I am now I'm I now have
more confidence to be who I am. And I don't care what other people think. I'm now going
to decorate my home. And I don't mind what other people think anymore. And to me, like,
I just write this guy, oh, my God, you have made my week, right? Because this is what
I want to hear. This is up. And it makes me tear up. People really, really connect back
to themselves. Oh, I need to. I need a tissue. I have one handy. Yeah, but that's what it's
about. Because that's what color is color is a form of self expression. And so we're
either using it. So in the book, I talk about Darwin's theory. And just like nature, we're
either using it to attract, we're using it to hide or to camouflage, we're using as a
warning sign. And that's exactly why we use color, we're using colors for those, you know,
and to attract is to be liked. And that's that's how the animals use it in the animal
kingdom. And we and we are just the same. We're just like in this moment, I'm sat here
thinking, well, I've clearly got a lot to learn because I my entire wardrobe is black.
Am I attracting? Am I? And actually, interestingly, there's a little part in the book that Haley
pointed out to me earlier about using color in. Is it fashion? Oh, I like how to draw
what to wear. Yeah, dressing for color. So when you go to your clients, I've got reading
at that point, because I was really interested in the other bits, because it's all interior
design. I really need to read that. So when you go to your client and you're having a
client meeting, you can wear colors to not only support how you want to feel, but also
how you want to interact with your clients. Because you might want to come across as authority
or you might want to come as very approachable. Or if you're designing for children's room,
you want to come across as really playful. So the children open up to you. You wouldn't
use I'm a one trick pony. I just go dressed as Morticia Adam every single day. I'm so
obsessive about what I wear when I go to a client meeting. I know you are. I know you
are. Yeah, because I just I wear navy a lot. So I when I'm going to the client meeting,
I'm always kind of like, All right, who are they? What are they doing? What am I going
to wear? And I dress to the to the client. And I constantly wear navy because I am blue
and things like that. Because I know that's quite well, I, I, I googled is a good color
to wear when you meet a client. But that will mean it moves us very nicely on to the Google
question. Because when I first started speaking to you, Karen, you said to me, how do you
find out about the psychology of color? And I said, I just Google it. And I got a bit
of a telling off. No, you didn't. I just went, Oh, no, no, no. So now I now I'm writing all
this. I'm like, Oh, my God. It's just the same as but it's like, I know people who are
doctors and they go, you know, I get I get clients, my patients coming in all the time
going, Well, I've got this problem with my knees. So I googled it. And it said I've got
this, this and this. And that, you know, the doctor says, Well, let me let me have a look
at it. You know, like, why don't I why don't I have a look? And people are self diagnosing
themselves. Now, the thing with color psychology, you and everyone can do this. Google color
psychology infographics, you will see 1000 infographics come up, I actually take those
infographics and put them into my course and get my students to dissect them. Everything
is called color psychology. So when you look at those, I look, I can see I can see some
color color psychology, I see color and culture, I see personal color association, I see bus
new I see function, I see chakras, all different modalities, all under the umbrella color psychology.
So no wonder when you look at that, and you think, Oh, well, if it says it, it must be.
It's not everybody just lumps everything. People lump color healing, like color therapy,
all under color psychology. It's not it's very, very different things. I get journalists call
me up a lot. And they go, Oh, we want to talk about color therapy. And I say, I'll just have
to let you know, I don't do color therapy. This is what I do is and I explain the girl. Oh,
no, that's what we want. But everyone, or I get called a color therapist, I get called a color
healer. And I'm like, Oh, no, I don't know colors, that color psychology does not heal.
It's not, you know, what can heal is chroma therapy, which is colored lights. And if you're
you're got, you know, even you probably had a sporting injury injury, and you've had infrared
on your muscles, you know, different colored lights have been said to have different effects
and heal, but that is by someone who actually is trained in color therapy. So that is something
very different again, but everything gets lumped under. And that's why I just went, Oh, no, no,
no, don't go don't go on to Google. Don't. So that's why so no, it wasn't a telling off. It
was just a love being a word of caution. Judgment. What is it that I like? What do I love? What makes
me feel good? What are my happy colors? What are colors that make me feel restful? Think of all the
different moods, different feelings, different behaviors, relaxed, calm, lively, excited,
optimistic, happy, all these different whole range of emotions, like positive emotions. You might
need more energy or you might need to be more feel need a bit more motivation. Think about all
those colors that will give that to you. Sure, my book, I have lots of tables that say what that is
in color psychology. Sometimes when we have our own associations to color, that are personal to us,
it might transcend what that color means psychologically. What I mean by that is,
you might absolutely love the turquoise because it reminds you of swimming in the ocean or going
to the Caribbean or it might give you those beautiful, wonderful memories. And that becomes
a conscious that's very conscious for you. That's what I mean by it's transcends psychology because
you have that conscious association. Then in the book with the color psychology, you'd be able to
see that, okay, I love that and it reminds me of the holidays. What I wouldn't do is put it in my
bedroom because it's a blue that actually wakes up body and wakes up mind. So it wouldn't be conducive
for sleeping, but I could put it into the bathroom because in the morning I need some help to wake up.
If I've got blue light or I've got some blue turquoise towels or I've got something that is
blue like a turquoise blue in there, it helps me to feel more refreshed and more alive. That might
actually give me a boost in the morning. You can do it. You can do things like that.
I think that's really, really good advice for people that, because I genuinely think
that people that are redecorating or have got a new project that they're looking at doing at home,
don't give that level of thought to these things. They look at a color swatch, a color chart,
and they go to the DIY store, they pick up all these swatches and they think about what they like,
but they don't actually investigate what is it about that that you do like? What is it that you
like about that? How does it make you feel? How can I utilize that in the right setting?
As you say, actually, it just takes maybe a little bit of time for people to
not focus so much on having an array of color in front of you, but picking out a select few that
do make you feel good and then starting maybe to just analyze that a little bit. What do you think
about that color that I like? Why do I think I like it? How does it make me feel?
Okay, is that the right color for the bedroom? Because it could be too stimulating, for instance.
So the other way to start is also think about what behavior you want in space. So I always start
my consultation at the end, then I come forward. So how do you want to feel in that space? How do
you want to behave in that space? Now a lot of people really find that question quite
important because it's like what do you mean by behave? And I say, what would you be doing in that
space to know that you're feeling, if you want to feel calm in this space, what would you be doing
to know that you were feeling calm? And then from what those behaviors are, which is this is,
you know, you can find this all in the book, then what the behaviors are, then you can then work
backwards and go, okay, it's these colors, but it's this color palette. It's this seasonal
personality because this is my personality. It's this saturation of color because very soft pink
is actually a light red, which is physically soothing and a stimulating pink is red, which is
a very different energy to a soft pink or a light blue is a very different energy to a turquoise,
to a dark blue. But it's not just, oh, I want blue in the space because I want to feel, you know,
my mind, you want to be mentally soothed or mentally stimulated. So it's, there are a number
of steps to go through. If you can always think about how is it that I want to feel in the space
and what would it look like? What would I be doing? Because everyone would be relaxing different.
Everyone does, you know, the party's different. Everyone does, you know, how they host, how they,
in the bedroom, some people want very stimulating bedrooms. Other ones want very soothing rooms.
Other people need very soothing workspace. Other people need it really lively to stimulate them
and to get them going. And if you're in sales, you do not want a palm for space at home. You know,
you need a really dynamic one because you have to be on the ball and dynamic. And in fact, you might
not even have a chair. You'd probably be standing doing all your chores. I was going to say that.
I'd say if I'm sort of in sales mode, yeah, you can hear it. You can hear the difference. So
there are a lot of things, but it's, it's not impossible at all. And it's just about having
the confidence, you know, experiment, give it a go, have fun, get curious, you know, don't,
don't get scared. Don't get worried. That's the biggest thing that we then do is like,
oh my God, I can't do this. I'm scared. What does everyone else got? That's how quick it can descend.
We revert back so quickly. It's like, well, the easy option is to just do what everyone else does.
Yeah. And do you know what? Everyone else is doing what everyone else has done.
Lauren, thank you so much. It's been a really, really fascinating conversation. And I've learned
from you and hopefully still continue to learn from you. How can we get in touch? How can we
follow you and can you thank you. Thank you. So I do have for interior designers, I do have a free
ebook, my rnhuller.com website in the top right hand corner. It says free ebook. That is the 10
myths that limit you using color successfully. It's a free book for designers and for the
everyday color lover, designers as well if they like, over on the little book of color.com,
the first chapter of my book is there for free as well. They can download the first chapter and read
that. And if it sounds the way that they want to use color, and it sounds like them, then
they can also buy the book. And then on social media, I always know that's all I talk about is
color. So I'll put your link on the show notes as well. Right, right. Yeah, so on Instagram,
it's Karen underscore huller underscore huller. It's been honestly, it's been incredible talking
to you really, really has. I love this conversation. It's been really, it's raw and natural and open
and honest. And I'm gonna go and spend some money on some clothes and change my wardrobe,
because I'm genuinely sat here thinking my house is a really good reflection of my,
my authentic self. But I've got so stuck in a rut. So the next time you see me on the next podcast,
I'll have all sorts of colors going on. And maybe you'll watch it, Karen and go,
she listened to me. I wore black, I used to wear a lot of black when I was in
corporate. And I know now I wore it protect myself because I was like a manager of 30
web developers. And to be taken seriously, I thought I had to wear black, I had to then work
out colors like when I when I left it and realized that's what I was doing, working out what colors
can I wear, still give me that authority or still make me feel very grounded and very centered, but
without pushing people away or isolating or coming across as like I came across as very, very stern
and my nickname used to be ice maiden at work. How do I how do I do that? Remove it straight away
would have been too much for me. So I actually had to wean myself off very, very gently,
because I had to find something that would be the supporting equivalent of that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thank you so much. Yeah, more than more than welcome.
Welcome.
So that was Karen Holler, who wrote a book about the little book of color, if you haven't got that
already. Very interesting. Oh, man. Fascinating. Yeah. It's like opening Pandora's box, isn't it?
Yeah. There are so many other subjects around that, that we can touch on in this podcast.
And it'd be cool to know if any of the listeners have got any area that they have around psychology
of color that they would like to kind of learn a bit more about or for us to kind of talk a bit
more about. Dive deeper into it. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. If anyone's got any ideas on that on
that front about what you would like to hear from us, what would you like to learn? Please, please
get in touch. We are on socials. I've got all the we're on Instagram and we're also on Facebook.
And we've got a section of the heart design website, which has a podcast area as well.
But if you've got any comments or any ideas that you want to share with us, we'd love to hear from
you. Any feedback? If you don't like our smuttiness, do we ramp it up? Do we ramp it down?
And there's lots more to come. So yeah, thank you very much for listening. Thanks for listening.
And we hope you can like and subscribe and listen to the next ones coming up. We've got some
interesting episodes coming up about cradle to cradle sustainability and fabrics. And so lots
of interesting content coming up. So keep subscribing and keep listening. See you soon. Thank you very
much.