WEBVTT 00:00:12.870 --> 00:00:15.929 Welcome back to On the Road Again. I'm Jack Alvey 00:00:15.929 --> 00:00:20.089 here with Emily Collette who is fresh off her 00:00:20.089 --> 00:00:23.969 Scandinavian cruise. Welcome back. Thank you. 00:00:25.129 --> 00:00:29.030 We've missed you. I hope the transition hasn't 00:00:29.030 --> 00:00:32.829 been too Bumpy, but I'm excited to dive right 00:00:32.829 --> 00:00:36.149 into episode four. Can you be spiritual but not 00:00:36.149 --> 00:00:38.490 religious or even flip the question? Can you 00:00:38.490 --> 00:00:43.109 be religious but not spiritual? a lot to weigh 00:00:43.109 --> 00:00:46.750 here, but first I want to go Start with the original 00:00:46.750 --> 00:00:49.270 question and ask Emily. What do you think people 00:00:49.270 --> 00:00:53.590 mean when they say I'm spiritual but not religious? 00:00:54.570 --> 00:00:57.390 In my personal experience the best way I can 00:00:57.390 --> 00:01:01.320 describe people who who I have encountered who 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:03.640 are spiritual but not religious, most of them 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:06.900 seem to have given up on the idea of organized, 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:10.599 institutionalized religion, but they have not 00:01:10.599 --> 00:01:14.640 given up on the idea of God as like a concept, 00:01:14.700 --> 00:01:20.280 as a being. So they are tired of religion itself, 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:23.180 this like institutional religion, but they are 00:01:23.180 --> 00:01:27.540 not, they're not done with God. That's my working 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:30.730 definition. Do you think that like they're tired 00:01:30.730 --> 00:01:32.950 of it because they've been burned by the church, 00:01:32.969 --> 00:01:34.590 they've been exhausted by the church, all the 00:01:34.590 --> 00:01:37.109 above? Yeah, all the above for whatever reason. 00:01:37.829 --> 00:01:40.750 I'm sure there's all I mean, hypocrisy is a big 00:01:40.750 --> 00:01:45.510 one. I hear people complaining about. Yeah, I 00:01:45.510 --> 00:01:49.590 mean. You know, there's just we can acknowledge 00:01:49.590 --> 00:01:52.829 the fact that the church has done. That has not 00:01:52.829 --> 00:01:54.750 always done good things, right? Like the church, 00:01:54.870 --> 00:01:58.099 I mean, think about all the current. groups of 00:01:58.099 --> 00:01:59.519 religious people who are having to pay out money 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:03.219 because of sexual assault and abuse of People 00:02:03.219 --> 00:02:04.700 you know that they've been put in charge of caring 00:02:04.700 --> 00:02:06.400 for and then not only that but then covered it 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:08.219 up right for years and years and years in order 00:02:08.219 --> 00:02:12.060 to protect themselves as an institution so there's 00:02:12.060 --> 00:02:14.020 There's a lot of hurt in the system. I think 00:02:14.020 --> 00:02:17.800 from some of those people There's also like what 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:20.280 they're seeing and experiencing in the world 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.900 was not always lining up with What they learned 00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:26.840 in whatever denomination or religion they're 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:32.199 leaving Yeah, and also like something that I'm 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:34.419 reminded of and we might have talked about it 00:02:34.419 --> 00:02:37.219 on this podcast. I can't remember so excuse me, 00:02:37.219 --> 00:02:41.039 but Dietrich Bonhoeffer is talking about an experience 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:44.979 that seminarians had did I talk about this already 00:02:44.979 --> 00:02:50.800 sort of they went to a seminary in Germany, you 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:55.219 know during the late 1930s they were sort of 00:02:55.219 --> 00:03:02.000 anti -Nazi movement and they had very high ideas 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.300 of what the church should look like and what 00:03:04.300 --> 00:03:07.379 the community of faithfuls should look like and 00:03:07.379 --> 00:03:10.930 when they got there they realized that the seminarians 00:03:10.930 --> 00:03:13.289 they were with were just a bunch of sinners. 00:03:15.150 --> 00:03:17.430 And Dietrich Bonhoeffer kind of had to say, you 00:03:17.430 --> 00:03:20.229 know, if you love your dream of community more 00:03:20.229 --> 00:03:22.449 than the community itself, you're going to destroy 00:03:22.449 --> 00:03:25.949 the community. And so I hear the hypocrisy thing, 00:03:25.969 --> 00:03:28.169 and I definitely think the church should be held 00:03:28.169 --> 00:03:30.750 to a higher standard. I definitely think the 00:03:30.750 --> 00:03:33.110 church is being called to repent on many accounts. 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:36.060 But at the same time, I also wonder if it's somewhat 00:03:36.060 --> 00:03:39.060 of a messaging problem. Like, you know, the church 00:03:39.060 --> 00:03:41.620 sort of presents itself as being, oh, we're all 00:03:41.620 --> 00:03:46.659 high and holy. But we're not a museum of saints. 00:03:46.900 --> 00:03:49.180 We're a hospital for sinners. I'm obviously stealing 00:03:49.180 --> 00:03:52.360 that from someone else. But I think some of it 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:55.879 is just sort of a PR problem. Like, who are the 00:03:55.879 --> 00:04:00.139 people that make up the church? We are not any... 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:03.539 better than anyone else. We are human beings 00:04:03.539 --> 00:04:09.259 who are seeking salvation from a world that is 00:04:09.259 --> 00:04:12.159 broken by sin and death. And so, you know, I 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:14.120 think some of it is a messaging problem. I've 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:16.279 heard people say, and I've even said it, like, 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:18.879 the church is not full of hypocrites. There's 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:22.279 plenty of room for more. You know, take that, 00:04:22.379 --> 00:04:24.620 take that as you will. But part of me wonders 00:04:24.620 --> 00:04:27.220 if it's somewhat of a messaging problem. We're 00:04:27.220 --> 00:04:31.160 sort of You know who are what is the purpose 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:34.740 of the church? You know, I guess Paul would say 00:04:34.740 --> 00:04:40.579 to reconcile all people to To God yeah, what 00:04:40.579 --> 00:04:42.240 are you gonna get when you come to church, right? 00:04:42.259 --> 00:04:44.180 Like what do you what's the point of coming to 00:04:44.180 --> 00:04:46.300 church on Sunday morning? Like what's the point 00:04:46.300 --> 00:04:48.399 or during the week? I mean, what's the point 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:52.259 of being a member of a Like worshipping community 00:04:52.259 --> 00:04:55.139 and I think that maybe that's our PR shortcoming 00:04:55.139 --> 00:04:56.360 to like what are you gonna get when you come 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:58.889 here? Yeah, and it's you know, I think you're 00:04:58.889 --> 00:05:00.290 not getting a ticket to heaven like that's not 00:05:00.290 --> 00:05:02.370 what we're promising you Right, like that's not 00:05:02.370 --> 00:05:03.870 like come here and be a member of us and like 00:05:03.870 --> 00:05:05.750 that's it You get into heaven and then you're 00:05:05.750 --> 00:05:07.610 done and nothing else you do after that matters, 00:05:07.750 --> 00:05:09.990 right? I think there's a like what's the purpose 00:05:09.990 --> 00:05:12.430 of like being in a church community? I think 00:05:12.430 --> 00:05:14.689 over time like, you know, maybe you come into 00:05:14.689 --> 00:05:16.649 it It's like what am I gonna get out of this 00:05:16.649 --> 00:05:19.629 and then over time, you know Hopefully the grace 00:05:19.629 --> 00:05:21.790 of God works on you and you're like, oh, okay. 00:05:21.850 --> 00:05:23.750 I see what it is It's not about what am I gonna 00:05:23.750 --> 00:05:27.069 get out of this is what? What am I going to do 00:05:27.069 --> 00:05:31.230 because I've encountered the grace of God? Consumerism. 00:05:32.209 --> 00:05:34.410 You can put that down. Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:05:35.709 --> 00:05:40.810 And the church at its best is a direct, is a 00:05:40.810 --> 00:05:42.290 rebuttal, I don't know if that's the right word, 00:05:42.569 --> 00:05:47.750 but is a contrast to a consumeristic culture. 00:05:47.930 --> 00:05:50.709 We want her to be. We want what? We want the 00:05:50.709 --> 00:05:53.689 church to be. What? A direct contrast. Oh, yeah. 00:05:53.709 --> 00:05:56.939 I mean, that's the ideal. But again, the church, 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:59.420 like any human institution, falls short. Why? 00:05:59.540 --> 00:06:01.560 Because it is made up of human beings. Humans! 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:05.339 Anyway, so that's sort of the age -old question. 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:09.100 Why does God use imperfect people to accomplish 00:06:09.100 --> 00:06:12.060 His purposes on earth? Well, because imperfect 00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:15.459 people are all there are. So I think a sort of 00:06:15.459 --> 00:06:19.579 recovery of what is the church for is a part 00:06:19.579 --> 00:06:22.560 of how to begin to address this problem. I also 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:25.779 think... the church needs to take ownership and 00:06:25.779 --> 00:06:29.819 responsibility for the ways in which it has abused 00:06:29.819 --> 00:06:33.160 the vulnerable, the very people that the church 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.040 is supposed to protect, the very people the church 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:40.839 is supposed to look out for. Instead, the church 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:48.199 will sometimes seek its own interests and seek 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:50.339 relationships with those in power so that the 00:06:50.339 --> 00:06:53.269 church can stay in power. So these are all a 00:06:53.269 --> 00:06:57.750 part of that larger conversation. Do you want 00:06:57.750 --> 00:07:00.189 to define some of these? I think it's important 00:07:00.189 --> 00:07:02.009 for us as we're continuing to talk about this. 00:07:02.089 --> 00:07:03.410 I think it's helpful for us to talk about what 00:07:03.410 --> 00:07:07.089 you mean with spiritual, but religious or spiritual. 00:07:07.649 --> 00:07:09.949 Yeah, well, I think that's a good thing. I think 00:07:09.949 --> 00:07:11.649 spiritual and religious, I think, well, first 00:07:11.649 --> 00:07:14.329 of all, it's a false binary or false dichotomy. 00:07:14.329 --> 00:07:17.250 I don't think it's not like you have spiritual 00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:20.350 over here and religious over here. I think I 00:07:20.350 --> 00:07:22.269 read somewhere, they're really, they're two different 00:07:22.269 --> 00:07:25.389 accesses. Like, you might be better off putting 00:07:25.389 --> 00:07:28.509 them in a sort of quadrant, you know, you have 00:07:28.509 --> 00:07:31.930 as opposed to spiritual but not religious. But 00:07:31.930 --> 00:07:34.329 what would you, like, when we say spiritual, 00:07:34.550 --> 00:07:36.170 what do you think people are actually saying, 00:07:36.470 --> 00:07:39.920 Emily? A lot of times when I think of spiritual 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:41.699 and people talk about that, it's almost like 00:07:41.699 --> 00:07:45.480 this personal, like, individualized, I think 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:51.000 it's very, like, it's not, like, completely solo 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:52.879 sometimes, but a lot of times it is. Like, I 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:54.980 think sometimes, like, when I, and this is maybe 00:07:54.980 --> 00:07:56.800 a stereotypical, but a lot of times people will 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:58.300 be like, well, I don't go to church because I 00:07:58.300 --> 00:07:59.920 can just go for a walk in the woods and I see 00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:02.079 God so much clearer. Of course you're going to 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:04.759 see God in the woods, right? Like, you see... 00:08:04.699 --> 00:08:06.759 the artist and the art, right? Of course you're 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:09.040 going to see God in the woods because God created 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.360 all of this, right? So of course you should see 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:14.220 God in creation and things like that. Of course 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:16.680 that's true, but you know, and that's not a bad 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:18.899 thing. Please go on a walk and see God in the 00:08:18.899 --> 00:08:22.079 woods. That's fantastic. I just don't think that 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:25.579 replaces Sunday morning being in a community. 00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:28.680 Yeah. And I think, you know, yes, the first thing 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:33.200 God does is create. nature, right? And then, 00:08:33.259 --> 00:08:37.899 finally, human beings. And then, God looks upon 00:08:37.899 --> 00:08:42.039 the humankind that he has made and says, it is 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:45.440 not good for them to be alone. So, God creates 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.600 community. Well, and, I mean, he could also argue 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:50.740 that the very character of God is community. 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:55.419 And we define that on Trinity Sunday. And, you 00:08:55.419 --> 00:08:58.000 know, it's apparent in the opening verses of 00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:02.940 of Genesis. God refers to God's self as us, or 00:09:02.940 --> 00:09:05.899 we, and so there's already this communal element. 00:09:06.139 --> 00:09:07.740 This sort of reminds me of an article I read 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:12.299 not too long ago talking about a similar sort 00:09:12.299 --> 00:09:15.320 of thread of spiritual but not religious, and 00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:19.019 the author talks about the Beatitudes in particular 00:09:19.019 --> 00:09:21.740 and says, you know, something to the effect of 00:09:21.740 --> 00:09:26.460 is, you know, how can you know what it is like 00:09:26.460 --> 00:09:31.419 to to give and receive mercy, if you're not in 00:09:31.419 --> 00:09:33.919 community with people with those whom you hurt 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.700 and who hurt you. And so our fundamental growth 00:09:37.700 --> 00:09:41.039 as human beings, as Christians, as witnesses 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:46.659 to grace, is the experience of receiving and 00:09:46.659 --> 00:09:49.879 giving mercy, being forgiven as we forgive others. 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:53.240 And that's a part of our growth as people of 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:59.139 God. as painful as it is, it is a necessary part 00:09:59.139 --> 00:10:01.840 of the salvation story. You know, just like the 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.639 cross, like you can't have the salvation of God 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:09.879 and Christ without the cross. And so I think 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:12.100 that's another, you know, so going back to this 00:10:12.100 --> 00:10:16.559 idea of spiritual, but not religious. So yes, 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:19.419 there this, you know, I think one way to think 00:10:19.419 --> 00:10:21.059 about it is I think sometimes people are saying, 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.500 well, spirit, I'm spiritual. A .K .A. I have 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:29.059 a relationship with God on my own. And religious 00:10:29.059 --> 00:10:31.679 is like, well, those are those hypocrites that 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:34.980 gather every Sunday, act one way on Sunday and 00:10:34.980 --> 00:10:37.500 then a different way the rest of the week. I 00:10:37.500 --> 00:10:40.440 think that might be a crude way of distilling 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:42.559 it, but I think that's sort of what we're... 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:45.000 Like a protest almost. Yeah, it's almost a protest. 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.240 But even still, if you say you're spiritual, 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:51.159 you're still relying on some kind of community. 00:10:51.299 --> 00:10:53.950 You're reading some kind of book. you're going 00:10:53.950 --> 00:10:59.309 on some kind of hike and a preserve that is maintained 00:10:59.309 --> 00:11:02.970 by some group of people. So you can't, you know, 00:11:03.070 --> 00:11:08.889 it's not completely solo. I think it's just a 00:11:08.889 --> 00:11:11.669 rejection of the church as an institution sometimes, 00:11:11.730 --> 00:11:13.809 or I don't even know if it's a full -on rejection. 00:11:14.509 --> 00:11:16.830 I do know some people who have been hurt by the 00:11:16.830 --> 00:11:19.490 church and who it is very much a protest. I believe 00:11:19.490 --> 00:11:22.309 in God, but I do not like religion. But then 00:11:22.309 --> 00:11:24.009 there are other people who just don't see the 00:11:24.009 --> 00:11:26.789 need in it, who just don't understand or don't 00:11:26.789 --> 00:11:31.389 care to be a part of that community anymore. 00:11:33.980 --> 00:11:36.259 We can get a bad rap. I mean, I know I have said 00:11:36.259 --> 00:11:38.419 in times in the past like I'm a Christian, but 00:11:38.419 --> 00:11:39.919 I'm not that kind of Christian, right? You know, 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:42.419 like there are times when like you've had to 00:11:42.419 --> 00:11:44.440 distinguish yourself from like pop culture Christianity 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:50.240 sometimes sure and Yeah, so obviously, you know 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.000 that for me that there's like another side of 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:56.080 the question Almost almost what you're saying 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.340 is like can you be religious but not spiritual 00:11:59.340 --> 00:12:02.919 and you know, I think that's another sort of 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.279 I think that's probably more likely than the 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:10.480 spiritual but not religious. I think you can 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:15.120 program God out of the picture. And I think that 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.320 is what the Pharisees probably get in the most 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.179 trouble for, is they've sort of programmed God 00:12:21.179 --> 00:12:24.100 out of the picture in the sense that the law 00:12:24.100 --> 00:12:31.340 is no longer an instrument that points to God's 00:12:31.340 --> 00:12:35.029 love. and God's desire for God's people, it becomes 00:12:35.029 --> 00:12:37.269 an instrument by which they measure themselves 00:12:37.269 --> 00:12:40.950 against others. It becomes its own idol. And 00:12:40.950 --> 00:12:43.649 I think that's what Jesus gets most frustrated 00:12:43.649 --> 00:12:49.549 with them about. And the very thing that is supposed 00:12:49.549 --> 00:12:54.009 to create a community that is loving, that is 00:12:54.009 --> 00:12:56.779 merciful, becomes a thing that... that is used 00:12:56.779 --> 00:12:59.019 to exclude, that is used to judge. And I think 00:12:59.019 --> 00:13:01.580 that's ultimately. I need to get power. I think 00:13:01.580 --> 00:13:03.940 that's a huge aspect of this too, right? Like 00:13:03.940 --> 00:13:05.840 Christianity, and not just Christianity, like 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:07.720 all religion can do the same thing, right? Like 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:12.580 it's an easy path, or it can be an easy path 00:13:12.580 --> 00:13:14.379 to getting power. And it becomes almost like 00:13:14.379 --> 00:13:16.399 unassailable power, because who are you to question 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.360 God, right? If I say that I'm operating on behalf 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:23.779 of God, who are you to question that? So it becomes 00:13:23.779 --> 00:13:27.259 almost this unassailable power structure. You 00:13:27.259 --> 00:13:29.759 know, we can critique and should critique politicians, 00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.059 but how can you critique your church, right? 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:34.559 Because this is like this unassailable, you know, 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.480 God is, you know, who are you to question that? 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:39.620 Especially if you don't have any religious authority 00:13:39.620 --> 00:13:41.519 and you're just a member of a congregation. Like, 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:43.639 who am I, you know, to question that? And so 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.259 I do think there's an element of power that's 00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:48.480 running through this conversation as well. Like, 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:50.159 I don't want to be in the church anymore because 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:53.220 it's wielding power and like a potentially gross 00:13:53.220 --> 00:13:56.919 and Yeah, and I think you know, you know reminds 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:59.159 me of a lot of people say well most major wars 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:02.460 are About you know some fight over religion. 00:14:02.460 --> 00:14:04.620 I was like well religion is the tool that they 00:14:04.620 --> 00:14:08.100 use Yeah to fight the wars not necessarily religion 00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:11.899 in and of itself Right religious is religion 00:14:11.899 --> 00:14:15.779 we can become a power tool that people used to 00:14:15.779 --> 00:14:19.539 lord it over others And I think you know people 00:14:19.539 --> 00:14:23.590 do that with any human sort of Institution and 00:14:23.590 --> 00:14:25.809 so I don't think that's unique to Christianity. 00:14:25.809 --> 00:14:29.129 You see Jesus reject Explicitly over and over 00:14:29.129 --> 00:14:30.669 again in his ministry, right? And I think it 00:14:30.669 --> 00:14:32.330 is one of the things he runs up against with 00:14:32.330 --> 00:14:34.330 the Pharisees quite a few times Is that like 00:14:34.330 --> 00:14:37.649 he does not? Want power he is not trying to take 00:14:37.649 --> 00:14:40.509 power from them but a lot of their fear is of 00:14:40.509 --> 00:14:42.570 course like here comes Jesus getting this following 00:14:42.570 --> 00:14:45.429 and followings with people can equal power and 00:14:45.429 --> 00:14:47.690 so sometimes I you can read in the Pharisees 00:14:47.690 --> 00:14:51.100 this fear that Jesus is starting to encroach 00:14:51.100 --> 00:14:56.100 upon their authority. Yeah and I think you know 00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:58.419 you know what is power sort of you know according 00:14:58.419 --> 00:15:00.700 to the kingdoms of this world power is acquired 00:15:00.700 --> 00:15:03.899 according to the kingdom of heaven power is looks 00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:06.700 like love given away. Yeah which is what Jesus 00:15:06.700 --> 00:15:09.399 does it's a self -empty thing right like he is 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:12.940 not looking for even to I think some you know 00:15:12.940 --> 00:15:14.679 the frustration of some of his own followers 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:17.919 right like they want him to come in and like 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:21.669 overthrow Oppression and overthrow Rome and Jesus 00:15:21.669 --> 00:15:23.730 is like I'm not literally not here to do any 00:15:23.730 --> 00:15:25.389 of that. That's just another power grab, right? 00:15:25.490 --> 00:15:27.230 Yeah, he's I'm not here for that. I'm here to 00:15:27.230 --> 00:15:31.210 do something totally beyond that right like I'm 00:15:31.210 --> 00:15:33.250 Rome is on top of a foundation that Jesus is 00:15:33.250 --> 00:15:35.049 addressing right like it's Jesus is knocking 00:15:35.049 --> 00:15:38.350 out the foundation underneath all of human existence 00:15:38.350 --> 00:15:41.389 so there's a It's a total different, it's a total 00:15:41.389 --> 00:15:43.289 mind shift. Yeah, I mean, because if you look 00:15:43.289 --> 00:15:45.610 at the sort of the civilization, it's, you know, 00:15:45.690 --> 00:15:49.649 just nations rising and falling, right? And so 00:15:49.649 --> 00:15:53.769 Jesus is not here to enable the same pattern 00:15:53.769 --> 00:15:56.990 happening again and again and again. You know, 00:15:56.990 --> 00:15:59.730 Israel at one point does come into power as a 00:15:59.730 --> 00:16:02.669 nation over their region, but what did they do 00:16:02.669 --> 00:16:05.710 with that power? They squander it, just like 00:16:05.710 --> 00:16:08.549 any other nation squanders their power when they 00:16:08.549 --> 00:16:11.960 become... Too powerful. Even though God has said, 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.159 y 'all don't want a king. You do not want a king. 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:15.460 Yeah, trust me. You don't want a king. You do 00:16:15.460 --> 00:16:17.200 not want a king. They're like, yes, we do. We 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:18.620 want to be like everyone else. Everyone has a 00:16:18.620 --> 00:16:20.940 king. We want one. Yeah, because that's always 00:16:20.940 --> 00:16:22.940 a good idea. God's like, you don't need a king. 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.559 You've got me. Why would you want a king? And 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:29.570 he gives the people what they want. But God remains 00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:34.509 faithful even when we do not. That's the covenant. 00:16:34.610 --> 00:16:37.350 I will make of you a great nation. It's not going 00:16:37.350 --> 00:16:39.230 to look like brick and mortar. It's going to 00:16:39.230 --> 00:16:43.210 look like a people who were faithful. Which brings 00:16:43.210 --> 00:16:45.570 us back. A people, right? A community. Exactly. 00:16:45.590 --> 00:16:47.970 That's the community that's so important there. 00:16:48.350 --> 00:16:50.450 Exactly. I think that that's one of the things 00:16:50.450 --> 00:16:53.289 that I would say is the biggest downside to spiritual 00:16:53.289 --> 00:16:58.570 but not religious. community with each other. 00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:00.610 We have got to be in community with each other. 00:17:00.769 --> 00:17:02.529 A, we were created for that. So like we were 00:17:02.529 --> 00:17:04.730 never meant to do any of this alone. We were 00:17:04.730 --> 00:17:07.750 never meant to be out here just like floundering 00:17:07.750 --> 00:17:13.950 through life alone at all. But the trade -off 00:17:13.950 --> 00:17:16.470 for that is tension sometimes, right? Like the 00:17:16.470 --> 00:17:19.549 trade -off for community and relationship is 00:17:19.549 --> 00:17:22.529 tension within that system. It just happens. 00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:24.619 I mean, we have tension within ourselves, so 00:17:24.619 --> 00:17:26.359 how can we not expect to have tension with each 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.619 other? But that's the place from which we grow, 00:17:30.740 --> 00:17:32.380 I think, too, right? I think about, like, I just 00:17:32.380 --> 00:17:34.140 got back from a special session this summer, 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:37.980 and, you know, it's a tough place for a lot of 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:39.740 our teenagers because they're caregiving for 00:17:39.740 --> 00:17:42.319 the first time ever, and most of you listening 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.539 to this will know that caregiving is a really... 00:17:44.589 --> 00:17:47.529 difficult task and so it's the first time that 00:17:47.529 --> 00:17:49.089 these kids have ever been put in the role of 00:17:49.089 --> 00:17:52.410 like true caregiver 24 7 for people with disabilities 00:17:52.410 --> 00:17:54.950 and it's a lot of growing it's a lot of learning 00:17:54.950 --> 00:17:57.029 it's a lot of tension it's a lot of heartache 00:17:57.029 --> 00:17:59.769 but you can see these kids that come back if 00:17:59.769 --> 00:18:01.809 they live into that tension in that community 00:18:01.809 --> 00:18:05.109 that new role that they have in community they 00:18:05.109 --> 00:18:07.690 grow so much and i think that that's part of 00:18:07.690 --> 00:18:11.289 the gift of community have i just gone off on 00:18:11.289 --> 00:18:13.609 a tangent here no you're you're doing great i 00:18:13.609 --> 00:18:17.299 think I mean, that's ultimately what God is doing. 00:18:17.420 --> 00:18:22.019 Under the cross, God is gathering a community. 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:24.680 And this is a part of what Jeff was talking about 00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:28.180 last week, is under the cross, God is gathering 00:18:28.180 --> 00:18:32.099 a people who are not defined by what the world 00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:34.160 says they are, Jew or Greek, slave or free, male 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:38.980 or female, able -bodied versus those with disabilities. 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:42.480 You know, not that those things are erased, at 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.440 least not in this lifetime, it's that we're not, 00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:47.700 that's not our ultimate identity. Our ultimate 00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:51.839 identity is that we are sinners of God's own 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:55.720 redeeming. We're, you know, lamb of his own flock. 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:58.400 And so that is our ultimate identity. That is 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.180 what makes us one. And so I think about, it reminds 00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:06.519 me of something that Episcopal priest and writer, 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:09.880 you know, Robert Capon talks about. And I think 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:12.519 it's in his book for you know noon to three talking 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:15.980 about the crucifixion and the purpose of it And 00:19:15.980 --> 00:19:19.160 this is a very crude Telling of what he said, 00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:21.400 but he said something to the effect of Jesus 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:24.119 did not come to start a new religion Christianity 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.940 is not a new religion Christianity is actually 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:33.500 the end of of religion and The cross is a signal 00:19:33.500 --> 00:19:36.319 that God has gone out of the religion business 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:40.589 all together that no amount of human striving 00:19:40.589 --> 00:19:45.369 can turn this ship of fools around. The only 00:19:45.369 --> 00:19:49.069 hope that we have is a God who will intervene 00:19:49.069 --> 00:19:52.910 on our behalf and that God is revealed in Jesus 00:19:52.910 --> 00:19:55.450 Christ, the one who died for the sins of the 00:19:55.450 --> 00:19:57.809 world. And so obviously we sort of come full 00:19:57.809 --> 00:19:59.650 circle here and it's almost like, well, yeah, 00:19:59.750 --> 00:20:04.150 you just said God put an end to religion. I did, 00:20:04.430 --> 00:20:07.569 you're right, you got me there. But I think what 00:20:07.569 --> 00:20:10.450 capon is saying specifically is that religion 00:20:10.450 --> 00:20:16.230 can't can't get us to God What is religion for? 00:20:16.650 --> 00:20:20.190 Religion is the finger pointing to God gone out 00:20:20.190 --> 00:20:22.710 of the religion business in the sense that Religion 00:20:22.710 --> 00:20:25.589 is not going to save us religion is not going 00:20:25.589 --> 00:20:30.609 to Find our you know, but all the way to God. 00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:33.900 Our only hope is God Coming to us descending 00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:36.779 to us. So why living among us? I'm sorry. I cut 00:20:36.779 --> 00:20:38.839 you off. No, you're fine. Go ahead. Why should 00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:40.940 you if you were going to tell someone who's spiritual, 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:43.380 but not religious, why should they come to church? 00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:45.680 Why should they be a member of a church? Like 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:47.579 if you're trying to get somebody out of that, 00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:50.039 why come to church? What are you going to get 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:53.960 here? Yeah, I think you are going to sort of 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:59.059 going back to what Jeff was talking about last 00:20:59.059 --> 00:21:03.740 week, the church. through the cross, removes 00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:06.519 you from the center of your own story, where 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:09.720 you can get out of your own way and where your 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:13.799 life is no longer revolves around you, but revolves 00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:18.380 around something much bigger than you. And that 00:21:18.380 --> 00:21:25.880 being that God creates a community that is defined 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:30.160 by acts of compassion, by acts of mercy. by acts 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:35.180 of justice, a community that is defined by people 00:21:35.180 --> 00:21:39.279 who pay attention to those no one else is paying 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.799 attention to. And I think ultimately that is 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:45.819 when the church is at her best. Not when the 00:21:45.819 --> 00:21:48.079 church is trying to look better than everyone 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:51.500 else, but by being morally superior to everyone 00:21:51.500 --> 00:21:56.119 else, the church is at her best when she is serving 00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:58.799 the least, the last. and the lost, and that is 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:03.920 a direct result of the cross, where God is gathering, 00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:07.079 where Christ is gathering all different kinds 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:12.400 of people and defining them not by, you know, 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:16.480 who the world says they are, but by who they 00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:18.619 are in Christ, beloved children of God. And so 00:22:18.619 --> 00:22:20.740 I think that's ultimately what I would say the 00:22:20.740 --> 00:22:24.609 why. Ask me any given moment and I'll give you 00:22:24.609 --> 00:22:27.349 a different version of that answer, but how would 00:22:27.349 --> 00:22:29.829 you say it? I really liked what you said about 00:22:29.829 --> 00:22:32.029 de -centering the self. I think that's so important, 00:22:32.130 --> 00:22:34.769 because when we do these things on our own, I 00:22:34.769 --> 00:22:36.809 can understand the tendency to move away from 00:22:36.809 --> 00:22:41.619 religion. I can understand their... Like like 00:22:41.619 --> 00:22:44.460 pop culture religion right now the news there 00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:46.019 really isn't a lot of good stories about what 00:22:46.019 --> 00:22:48.920 the church is up to right now Out in the world 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.039 so I can understand this like movement away from 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.960 that I get it but I would say that like this 00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:56.819 is it when we get on our own we tend to do two 00:22:56.819 --> 00:23:00.019 things right we tend to either just self -affirm 00:23:00.019 --> 00:23:01.859 like we're doing great we're doing good on our 00:23:01.859 --> 00:23:04.359 own or we tend to be hyper critical of the self 00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:07.859 and both of those need other people to come in 00:23:07.859 --> 00:23:09.859 and hold up a mirror to us. Like this, we've 00:23:09.859 --> 00:23:12.359 got to have other people who help us. Like if 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:14.599 I'm getting so hyper critical of myself, like 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:17.180 other people, I need them to affirm me and vice 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:21.539 versa. If I'm getting so self -assured and so 00:23:21.539 --> 00:23:23.559 self -important, like I need other people to 00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:25.220 be like, hey, look, let's put you back into the 00:23:25.220 --> 00:23:27.819 scope of humanity, right? Let's put you back 00:23:27.819 --> 00:23:30.599 in the scope of other people. And so I think 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.180 we have to have other, we have to have people 00:23:33.180 --> 00:23:36.900 hold up a mirror. to us. And I would also say 00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:39.460 this, if you are critical of religion, religion 00:23:39.460 --> 00:23:42.319 needs you. If you are the kind of person who 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:46.619 has seen the ugly side of religion, I do think 00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:49.180 that religion needs you. I think about the prophets, 00:23:49.299 --> 00:23:51.819 and it's really no fun being a prophet. Sorry 00:23:51.819 --> 00:23:55.740 about that. But I think about the prophets being 00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:58.299 called to point out what's wrong, but they have 00:23:58.299 --> 00:24:01.259 to do that in community. Throwing rocks from 00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:05.140 outside is not very helpful. But, you know, building 00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:09.759 up something from the inside is hard and it takes 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.480 work, but it also is like where change happens. 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:17.079 Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, God is transforming 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:19.819 the system from within, not from without. That's 00:24:19.819 --> 00:24:23.359 why God literally enters into human life. God 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:25.619 is not, you know... Most of the prophets come 00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:27.299 from inside Israel. You know what I mean? It's 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:29.480 like they're coming from inside that. Absolutely. 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:31.660 Because they love it. You know, they love and 00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:36.589 they don't want it to get off. Absolutely. Another 00:24:36.589 --> 00:24:41.589 Bonhoefferism, but there's nothing more cruel 00:24:41.589 --> 00:24:44.869 than the leniency that abandons someone to their 00:24:44.869 --> 00:24:48.230 sin. There's nothing more loving than the severe 00:24:48.230 --> 00:24:50.230 rebuke that calls someone back from their sin. 00:24:52.430 --> 00:24:54.809 A different way of saying what you just said 00:24:54.809 --> 00:24:58.950 is we need people to affirm us when we're self 00:24:58.950 --> 00:25:02.799 -loathing and we need people to... call us back 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:06.400 when we're a little bit arrogant. So I love that 00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:10.599 image. Also reminded of a Kellerism, Tim Keller, 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:13.160 he said, you know, people are messy, relationships 00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:15.640 are messy, expect messiness. And I think that's 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:16.859 what you're going to find in the church. I'm 00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:18.779 not going to sugarcoat it for you. You're going 00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:20.519 to meet annoying people. You're going to meet 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:22.059 people who aren't like you. They're going to 00:25:22.059 --> 00:25:23.819 you're going to meet people who drive you crazy. 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:29.230 But that's actually what part of the design and 00:25:29.230 --> 00:25:32.490 through that messiness God enters. And that is, 00:25:32.509 --> 00:25:34.210 you know, the good news of the gospel is God 00:25:34.210 --> 00:25:39.029 enters that messiness and he might not, you know, 00:25:39.309 --> 00:25:41.089 smooth it out in the way that we would like, 00:25:41.690 --> 00:25:45.809 but God redeems it from within, helping us see 00:25:45.809 --> 00:25:48.809 in the other our common humanity. That we're 00:25:48.809 --> 00:25:53.170 all a little bit messy, but we're all worth loving 00:25:53.170 --> 00:25:57.490 because God died for or Christ died for us all 00:25:57.490 --> 00:26:05.809 Yeah, it's good Okay, so Next time I will not 00:26:05.809 --> 00:26:09.509 be here Emily will be here with Ashley Monticelli 00:26:09.509 --> 00:26:12.029 our directory of you're promising a lot right 00:26:12.029 --> 00:26:15.930 now ministries they're gonna talk about the Eucharist 00:26:15.930 --> 00:26:19.890 and what all that means, like why do we do it? 00:26:20.450 --> 00:26:24.089 Is Jesus really present? And if so, how present? 00:26:24.750 --> 00:26:27.750 So anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing about 00:26:27.750 --> 00:26:30.269 that. Well, on my vacation, hopefully it happens. 00:26:30.490 --> 00:26:32.829 Hopefully it happens. It's a technology. It'll 00:26:32.829 --> 00:26:34.230 be a technology thing. It'll be a technology 00:26:34.230 --> 00:26:36.589 thing. Anyway, well thank you for joining us, 00:26:37.470 --> 00:26:41.230 and I pray for Emily and Ashley, and really Olivia. 00:26:42.529 --> 00:26:42.710 Bye!