Welcome back to On the Road Again. I'm Jack Alvey
here with Emily Collette who is fresh off her
Scandinavian cruise. Welcome back. Thank you.
We've missed you. I hope the transition hasn't
been too Bumpy, but I'm excited to dive right
into episode four. Can you be spiritual but not
religious or even flip the question? Can you
be religious but not spiritual? a lot to weigh
here, but first I want to go Start with the original
question and ask Emily. What do you think people
mean when they say I'm spiritual but not religious?
In my personal experience the best way I can
describe people who who I have encountered who
are spiritual but not religious, most of them
seem to have given up on the idea of organized,
institutionalized religion, but they have not
given up on the idea of God as like a concept,
as a being. So they are tired of religion itself,
this like institutional religion, but they are
not, they're not done with God. That's my working
definition. Do you think that like they're tired
of it because they've been burned by the church,
they've been exhausted by the church, all the
above? Yeah, all the above for whatever reason.
I'm sure there's all I mean, hypocrisy is a big
one. I hear people complaining about. Yeah, I
mean. You know, there's just we can acknowledge
the fact that the church has done. That has not
always done good things, right? Like the church,
I mean, think about all the current. groups of
religious people who are having to pay out money
because of sexual assault and abuse of People
you know that they've been put in charge of caring
for and then not only that but then covered it
up right for years and years and years in order
to protect themselves as an institution so there's
There's a lot of hurt in the system. I think
from some of those people There's also like what
they're seeing and experiencing in the world
was not always lining up with What they learned
in whatever denomination or religion they're
leaving Yeah, and also like something that I'm
reminded of and we might have talked about it
on this podcast. I can't remember so excuse me,
but Dietrich Bonhoeffer is talking about an experience
that seminarians had did I talk about this already
sort of they went to a seminary in Germany, you
know during the late 1930s they were sort of
anti -Nazi movement and they had very high ideas
of what the church should look like and what
the community of faithfuls should look like and
when they got there they realized that the seminarians
they were with were just a bunch of sinners.
And Dietrich Bonhoeffer kind of had to say, you
know, if you love your dream of community more
than the community itself, you're going to destroy
the community. And so I hear the hypocrisy thing,
and I definitely think the church should be held
to a higher standard. I definitely think the
church is being called to repent on many accounts.
But at the same time, I also wonder if it's somewhat
of a messaging problem. Like, you know, the church
sort of presents itself as being, oh, we're all
high and holy. But we're not a museum of saints.
We're a hospital for sinners. I'm obviously stealing
that from someone else. But I think some of it
is just sort of a PR problem. Like, who are the
people that make up the church? We are not any...
better than anyone else. We are human beings
who are seeking salvation from a world that is
broken by sin and death. And so, you know, I
think some of it is a messaging problem. I've
heard people say, and I've even said it, like,
the church is not full of hypocrites. There's
plenty of room for more. You know, take that,
take that as you will. But part of me wonders
if it's somewhat of a messaging problem. We're
sort of You know who are what is the purpose
of the church? You know, I guess Paul would say
to reconcile all people to To God yeah, what
are you gonna get when you come to church, right?
Like what do you what's the point of coming to
church on Sunday morning? Like what's the point
or during the week? I mean, what's the point
of being a member of a Like worshipping community
and I think that maybe that's our PR shortcoming
to like what are you gonna get when you come
here? Yeah, and it's you know, I think you're
not getting a ticket to heaven like that's not
what we're promising you Right, like that's not
like come here and be a member of us and like
that's it You get into heaven and then you're
done and nothing else you do after that matters,
right? I think there's a like what's the purpose
of like being in a church community? I think
over time like, you know, maybe you come into
it It's like what am I gonna get out of this
and then over time, you know Hopefully the grace
of God works on you and you're like, oh, okay.
I see what it is It's not about what am I gonna
get out of this is what? What am I going to do
because I've encountered the grace of God? Consumerism.
You can put that down. Yeah, no, absolutely.
And the church at its best is a direct, is a
rebuttal, I don't know if that's the right word,
but is a contrast to a consumeristic culture.
We want her to be. We want what? We want the
church to be. What? A direct contrast. Oh, yeah.
I mean, that's the ideal. But again, the church,
like any human institution, falls short. Why?
Because it is made up of human beings. Humans!
Anyway, so that's sort of the age -old question.
Why does God use imperfect people to accomplish
His purposes on earth? Well, because imperfect
people are all there are. So I think a sort of
recovery of what is the church for is a part
of how to begin to address this problem. I also
think... the church needs to take ownership and
responsibility for the ways in which it has abused
the vulnerable, the very people that the church
is supposed to protect, the very people the church
is supposed to look out for. Instead, the church
will sometimes seek its own interests and seek
relationships with those in power so that the
church can stay in power. So these are all a
part of that larger conversation. Do you want
to define some of these? I think it's important
for us as we're continuing to talk about this.
I think it's helpful for us to talk about what
you mean with spiritual, but religious or spiritual.
Yeah, well, I think that's a good thing. I think
spiritual and religious, I think, well, first
of all, it's a false binary or false dichotomy.
I don't think it's not like you have spiritual
over here and religious over here. I think I
read somewhere, they're really, they're two different
accesses. Like, you might be better off putting
them in a sort of quadrant, you know, you have
as opposed to spiritual but not religious. But
what would you, like, when we say spiritual,
what do you think people are actually saying,
Emily? A lot of times when I think of spiritual
and people talk about that, it's almost like
this personal, like, individualized, I think
it's very, like, it's not, like, completely solo
sometimes, but a lot of times it is. Like, I
think sometimes, like, when I, and this is maybe
a stereotypical, but a lot of times people will
be like, well, I don't go to church because I
can just go for a walk in the woods and I see
God so much clearer. Of course you're going to
see God in the woods, right? Like, you see...
the artist and the art, right? Of course you're
going to see God in the woods because God created
all of this, right? So of course you should see
God in creation and things like that. Of course
that's true, but you know, and that's not a bad
thing. Please go on a walk and see God in the
woods. That's fantastic. I just don't think that
replaces Sunday morning being in a community.
Yeah. And I think, you know, yes, the first thing
God does is create. nature, right? And then,
finally, human beings. And then, God looks upon
the humankind that he has made and says, it is
not good for them to be alone. So, God creates
community. Well, and, I mean, he could also argue
that the very character of God is community.
And we define that on Trinity Sunday. And, you
know, it's apparent in the opening verses of
of Genesis. God refers to God's self as us, or
we, and so there's already this communal element.
This sort of reminds me of an article I read
not too long ago talking about a similar sort
of thread of spiritual but not religious, and
the author talks about the Beatitudes in particular
and says, you know, something to the effect of
is, you know, how can you know what it is like
to to give and receive mercy, if you're not in
community with people with those whom you hurt
and who hurt you. And so our fundamental growth
as human beings, as Christians, as witnesses
to grace, is the experience of receiving and
giving mercy, being forgiven as we forgive others.
And that's a part of our growth as people of
God. as painful as it is, it is a necessary part
of the salvation story. You know, just like the
cross, like you can't have the salvation of God
and Christ without the cross. And so I think
that's another, you know, so going back to this
idea of spiritual, but not religious. So yes,
there this, you know, I think one way to think
about it is I think sometimes people are saying,
well, spirit, I'm spiritual. A .K .A. I have
a relationship with God on my own. And religious
is like, well, those are those hypocrites that
gather every Sunday, act one way on Sunday and
then a different way the rest of the week. I
think that might be a crude way of distilling
it, but I think that's sort of what we're...
Like a protest almost. Yeah, it's almost a protest.
But even still, if you say you're spiritual,
you're still relying on some kind of community.
You're reading some kind of book. you're going
on some kind of hike and a preserve that is maintained
by some group of people. So you can't, you know,
it's not completely solo. I think it's just a
rejection of the church as an institution sometimes,
or I don't even know if it's a full -on rejection.
I do know some people who have been hurt by the
church and who it is very much a protest. I believe
in God, but I do not like religion. But then
there are other people who just don't see the
need in it, who just don't understand or don't
care to be a part of that community anymore.
We can get a bad rap. I mean, I know I have said
in times in the past like I'm a Christian, but
I'm not that kind of Christian, right? You know,
like there are times when like you've had to
distinguish yourself from like pop culture Christianity
sometimes sure and Yeah, so obviously, you know
that for me that there's like another side of
the question Almost almost what you're saying
is like can you be religious but not spiritual
and you know, I think that's another sort of
I think that's probably more likely than the
spiritual but not religious. I think you can
program God out of the picture. And I think that
is what the Pharisees probably get in the most
trouble for, is they've sort of programmed God
out of the picture in the sense that the law
is no longer an instrument that points to God's
love. and God's desire for God's people, it becomes
an instrument by which they measure themselves
against others. It becomes its own idol. And
I think that's what Jesus gets most frustrated
with them about. And the very thing that is supposed
to create a community that is loving, that is
merciful, becomes a thing that... that is used
to exclude, that is used to judge. And I think
that's ultimately. I need to get power. I think
that's a huge aspect of this too, right? Like
Christianity, and not just Christianity, like
all religion can do the same thing, right? Like
it's an easy path, or it can be an easy path
to getting power. And it becomes almost like
unassailable power, because who are you to question
God, right? If I say that I'm operating on behalf
of God, who are you to question that? So it becomes
almost this unassailable power structure. You
know, we can critique and should critique politicians,
but how can you critique your church, right?
Because this is like this unassailable, you know,
God is, you know, who are you to question that?
Especially if you don't have any religious authority
and you're just a member of a congregation. Like,
who am I, you know, to question that? And so
I do think there's an element of power that's
running through this conversation as well. Like,
I don't want to be in the church anymore because
it's wielding power and like a potentially gross
and Yeah, and I think you know, you know reminds
me of a lot of people say well most major wars
are About you know some fight over religion.
I was like well religion is the tool that they
use Yeah to fight the wars not necessarily religion
in and of itself Right religious is religion
we can become a power tool that people used to
lord it over others And I think you know people
do that with any human sort of Institution and
so I don't think that's unique to Christianity.
You see Jesus reject Explicitly over and over
again in his ministry, right? And I think it
is one of the things he runs up against with
the Pharisees quite a few times Is that like
he does not? Want power he is not trying to take
power from them but a lot of their fear is of
course like here comes Jesus getting this following
and followings with people can equal power and
so sometimes I you can read in the Pharisees
this fear that Jesus is starting to encroach
upon their authority. Yeah and I think you know
you know what is power sort of you know according
to the kingdoms of this world power is acquired
according to the kingdom of heaven power is looks
like love given away. Yeah which is what Jesus
does it's a self -empty thing right like he is
not looking for even to I think some you know
the frustration of some of his own followers
right like they want him to come in and like
overthrow Oppression and overthrow Rome and Jesus
is like I'm not literally not here to do any
of that. That's just another power grab, right?
Yeah, he's I'm not here for that. I'm here to
do something totally beyond that right like I'm
Rome is on top of a foundation that Jesus is
addressing right like it's Jesus is knocking
out the foundation underneath all of human existence
so there's a It's a total different, it's a total
mind shift. Yeah, I mean, because if you look
at the sort of the civilization, it's, you know,
just nations rising and falling, right? And so
Jesus is not here to enable the same pattern
happening again and again and again. You know,
Israel at one point does come into power as a
nation over their region, but what did they do
with that power? They squander it, just like
any other nation squanders their power when they
become... Too powerful. Even though God has said,
y 'all don't want a king. You do not want a king.
Yeah, trust me. You don't want a king. You do
not want a king. They're like, yes, we do. We
want to be like everyone else. Everyone has a
king. We want one. Yeah, because that's always
a good idea. God's like, you don't need a king.
You've got me. Why would you want a king? And
he gives the people what they want. But God remains
faithful even when we do not. That's the covenant.
I will make of you a great nation. It's not going
to look like brick and mortar. It's going to
look like a people who were faithful. Which brings
us back. A people, right? A community. Exactly.
That's the community that's so important there.
Exactly. I think that that's one of the things
that I would say is the biggest downside to spiritual
but not religious. community with each other.
We have got to be in community with each other.
A, we were created for that. So like we were
never meant to do any of this alone. We were
never meant to be out here just like floundering
through life alone at all. But the trade -off
for that is tension sometimes, right? Like the
trade -off for community and relationship is
tension within that system. It just happens.
I mean, we have tension within ourselves, so
how can we not expect to have tension with each
other? But that's the place from which we grow,
I think, too, right? I think about, like, I just
got back from a special session this summer,
and, you know, it's a tough place for a lot of
our teenagers because they're caregiving for
the first time ever, and most of you listening
to this will know that caregiving is a really...
difficult task and so it's the first time that
these kids have ever been put in the role of
like true caregiver 24 7 for people with disabilities
and it's a lot of growing it's a lot of learning
it's a lot of tension it's a lot of heartache
but you can see these kids that come back if
they live into that tension in that community
that new role that they have in community they
grow so much and i think that that's part of
the gift of community have i just gone off on
a tangent here no you're you're doing great i
think I mean, that's ultimately what God is doing.
Under the cross, God is gathering a community.
And this is a part of what Jeff was talking about
last week, is under the cross, God is gathering
a people who are not defined by what the world
says they are, Jew or Greek, slave or free, male
or female, able -bodied versus those with disabilities.
You know, not that those things are erased, at
least not in this lifetime, it's that we're not,
that's not our ultimate identity. Our ultimate
identity is that we are sinners of God's own
redeeming. We're, you know, lamb of his own flock.
And so that is our ultimate identity. That is
what makes us one. And so I think about, it reminds
me of something that Episcopal priest and writer,
you know, Robert Capon talks about. And I think
it's in his book for you know noon to three talking
about the crucifixion and the purpose of it And
this is a very crude Telling of what he said,
but he said something to the effect of Jesus
did not come to start a new religion Christianity
is not a new religion Christianity is actually
the end of of religion and The cross is a signal
that God has gone out of the religion business
all together that no amount of human striving
can turn this ship of fools around. The only
hope that we have is a God who will intervene
on our behalf and that God is revealed in Jesus
Christ, the one who died for the sins of the
world. And so obviously we sort of come full
circle here and it's almost like, well, yeah,
you just said God put an end to religion. I did,
you're right, you got me there. But I think what
capon is saying specifically is that religion
can't can't get us to God What is religion for?
Religion is the finger pointing to God gone out
of the religion business in the sense that Religion
is not going to save us religion is not going
to Find our you know, but all the way to God.
Our only hope is God Coming to us descending
to us. So why living among us? I'm sorry. I cut
you off. No, you're fine. Go ahead. Why should
you if you were going to tell someone who's spiritual,
but not religious, why should they come to church?
Why should they be a member of a church? Like
if you're trying to get somebody out of that,
why come to church? What are you going to get
here? Yeah, I think you are going to sort of
going back to what Jeff was talking about last
week, the church. through the cross, removes
you from the center of your own story, where
you can get out of your own way and where your
life is no longer revolves around you, but revolves
around something much bigger than you. And that
being that God creates a community that is defined
by acts of compassion, by acts of mercy. by acts
of justice, a community that is defined by people
who pay attention to those no one else is paying
attention to. And I think ultimately that is
when the church is at her best. Not when the
church is trying to look better than everyone
else, but by being morally superior to everyone
else, the church is at her best when she is serving
the least, the last. and the lost, and that is
a direct result of the cross, where God is gathering,
where Christ is gathering all different kinds
of people and defining them not by, you know,
who the world says they are, but by who they
are in Christ, beloved children of God. And so
I think that's ultimately what I would say the
why. Ask me any given moment and I'll give you
a different version of that answer, but how would
you say it? I really liked what you said about
de -centering the self. I think that's so important,
because when we do these things on our own, I
can understand the tendency to move away from
religion. I can understand their... Like like
pop culture religion right now the news there
really isn't a lot of good stories about what
the church is up to right now Out in the world
so I can understand this like movement away from
that I get it but I would say that like this
is it when we get on our own we tend to do two
things right we tend to either just self -affirm
like we're doing great we're doing good on our
own or we tend to be hyper critical of the self
and both of those need other people to come in
and hold up a mirror to us. Like this, we've
got to have other people who help us. Like if
I'm getting so hyper critical of myself, like
other people, I need them to affirm me and vice
versa. If I'm getting so self -assured and so
self -important, like I need other people to
be like, hey, look, let's put you back into the
scope of humanity, right? Let's put you back
in the scope of other people. And so I think
we have to have other, we have to have people
hold up a mirror. to us. And I would also say
this, if you are critical of religion, religion
needs you. If you are the kind of person who
has seen the ugly side of religion, I do think
that religion needs you. I think about the prophets,
and it's really no fun being a prophet. Sorry
about that. But I think about the prophets being
called to point out what's wrong, but they have
to do that in community. Throwing rocks from
outside is not very helpful. But, you know, building
up something from the inside is hard and it takes
work, but it also is like where change happens.
Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, God is transforming
the system from within, not from without. That's
why God literally enters into human life. God
is not, you know... Most of the prophets come
from inside Israel. You know what I mean? It's
like they're coming from inside that. Absolutely.
Because they love it. You know, they love and
they don't want it to get off. Absolutely. Another
Bonhoefferism, but there's nothing more cruel
than the leniency that abandons someone to their
sin. There's nothing more loving than the severe
rebuke that calls someone back from their sin.
A different way of saying what you just said
is we need people to affirm us when we're self
-loathing and we need people to... call us back
when we're a little bit arrogant. So I love that
image. Also reminded of a Kellerism, Tim Keller,
he said, you know, people are messy, relationships
are messy, expect messiness. And I think that's
what you're going to find in the church. I'm
not going to sugarcoat it for you. You're going
to meet annoying people. You're going to meet
people who aren't like you. They're going to
you're going to meet people who drive you crazy.
But that's actually what part of the design and
through that messiness God enters. And that is,
you know, the good news of the gospel is God
enters that messiness and he might not, you know,
smooth it out in the way that we would like,
but God redeems it from within, helping us see
in the other our common humanity. That we're
all a little bit messy, but we're all worth loving
because God died for or Christ died for us all
Yeah, it's good Okay, so Next time I will not
be here Emily will be here with Ashley Monticelli
our directory of you're promising a lot right
now ministries they're gonna talk about the Eucharist
and what all that means, like why do we do it?
Is Jesus really present? And if so, how present?
So anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing about
that. Well, on my vacation, hopefully it happens.
Hopefully it happens. It's a technology. It'll
be a technology thing. It'll be a technology
thing. Anyway, well thank you for joining us,
and I pray for Emily and Ashley, and really Olivia.
Bye!