Tis I, Lord Podcast. Are you yearning to equip yourself with the confidence to record?
Elijah, the skilled podcast professional, is preparing himself for a tale of tools and
skill that only a mighty podcaster may employ in one's podcast journey.
Elijah, I do believe that we shall teach our weary wanderer the confidence that they strive
to achieve. Shall we start a podcast?
We shall! It's settled.
Let's start a podcast.
Let's start a podcast, shall we? James Cridlin, the mister of pad news, a 30-year veteran.
James, welcome. Thanks for joining. Thanks for having time to talk shop. I appreciate
it.
Well, it's a great pleasure to be here. Thank you very much. Obviously, I'm not a 30-year
veteran of podcasting because that would be impossible, but certainly a 30-year veteran
of audio, yeah.
I knew you would clarify once in a while. It's night time for me, daytime for you. You're
fresh. I'm still trying to figure out if I need a nap. So thank you for that.
That's great.
May I ask if you always sign up for podcast interviews after your 14-hour flights? Is
this just life for you? It's pure craziness?
Yeah, well, you know. Yes, I have. Yeah. So I've just come off a 14-hour flight from
LA and before that, a three-hour flight from Mexico. So obviously, I'm top of the world,
completely awake and everything else. But there we are. But yeah, so I was down in Mexico
for a podcast conference down there. It was fascinating. It was my first time in the country.
And yeah, and there's a real movement there and real sort of excitement about what podcasting
can be all about. So yeah, that was really good.
Good. And then you had the podcast movement. That was recent. I know on your highlights
and something exciting to hit Denver. Does that compare? Are they all the same in every
country or do they have their own little flares?
I think there are two big events that I go to every year, podcast movement and podcast
movement evolutions. But I also go to the podcast show in London, which is again a very
large event, lots of people there. And to be honest, the first time I went there, you
can tell that I'm a Brit, even though I'm speaking to you from Australia. But when I
went there to the podcast show in London, it kind of almost made me feel patriotic.
That we see America thinking that they invented podcasting and thinking that podcasting is
us. And then finally, actually seeing a really big event run in the UK where I was born,
where I grew up. And yeah, that was a really exciting thing. But yeah, there are events
all across the world these days. And it's great to be at some of those, whether they're
podcast events or radio events, which I still do a fair amount of. So yeah, it's always
good to go around the world and see some of those.
Do you think that you'd still be doing radio events, even if you didn't get the, I think
it's a Foster's box of cereal where you got the radio back when you're six or seven years
old?
Oh, the Frosty's box. Yeah.
Do you think that would change the world that happened if you didn't save up those tokens?
Or do you think it's to be the same?
I think, well, you know, so I mean, I've found that little free radio that I got with some
Frosty's. I found absolutely fascinating. I couldn't work out where the voices were
coming from. And so of course, being a six or seven year old boy, I had to take the thing
apart to find out where the voices were coming from, which was really interesting. But I
actually didn't listen to it as much as perhaps I should do because I was worried that I would
use up all of the content that was inside. I didn't really fully understand how radio
works back in those days. But yeah, so that was certainly a thing that got me involved
and interested in audio and interested in all that sort of stuff. So yeah, it was a
great first toy, I guess, into understanding what audio is all about and understanding
the sorts of things that you could do with that.
And now you've understand how things click, I hope. Have you counted how many guest appearance
you've had on radio and podcasts or is it just forget it? It's too many.
Oh, you know, I mean, I always enjoy being a guest on other people's shows. That's always
good. But I also, you know, I mean, I write about radio every so often, I write about
podcasting every single day. And, you know, so I'm always in contact with lots of different
people. And I think that that's one of the most exciting parts about, you know, being
involved in an industry, particularly the audio industry for over 30 years, means that,
you know, there's a lot of people who I can help put other people in contact with and
can, you know, and a lot of experience from across the world. And I think, you know, possibly
that's one of the differences between radio and podcasting. Whereas radio is very much
focused on where you are. It's focused on your city or your state or maybe the country.
But that's about as far as it goes. No one is really very interested in the radio business.
You know, if you're in the US, why would you be interested in what's going on in Norway
or what's going on in, you know, other parts of the, you know, of the world as well? So
I think from that, from that point of view, I think there's an awful lot to be learned
from from different people across the world. And podcasting has always been a little bit
more global, a little bit more open. But, you know, but I think that radio is very,
very much focused on just itself. And I think that that's a bit of a mistake.
It's nice to not have to have a shortwave or ham radio license to hear someone across
the world either. Just it's a tech. It's just all the barriers are gone. You just push a
button and I can hear you across the pond. It's wonderful.
Yeah, yeah, no, indeed. Indeed. It's, it's, you know, I mean, if you were asking me whether
I would have, you know, expected to be, you know, just having a chat with somebody across
the internet, across the internet, when I was 30 years ago, I mean, obviously not, you
know, I mean, it's made a tremendous change to all of us, hasn't it?
Absolutely. Have you made any tremendous changes since 2005 and podcasting? Have you been a
part of any grandeur or exciting things that have kind of changed the evolution of podcasting?
Well, I mean, you know, early 2005, I was part of the team that made the first daily
podcast for a radio station where I was working in London. And, and also on in the same month,
actually, we also the radio station launched the first, well, we called it a 3G tuner.
It was the first mobile phone app that you could stream a radio station from anywhere
in the world. And it was available on, I think, four Symbian phones. So, you know, so there
you go, there's a, there's a thing. But it was quite fun in terms of, you know, in terms
of getting that going, but then very interesting in terms of being able to move that on and
to, you know, work with some, some pieces of technology to make, you know, radio and
audio available in lots of different forms. And I think that that's been a really interesting
time.
Is that where you get the nickname, the Futurologist? Or is this something you just stamped on a
business card in college one day?
Well, I talk about the radio Futurologist as if, as if it's a thing. Of course, the
card is really Futurist, not Futurologist, but I've always fancied Anology. So I thought
I would get that. Someone actually said to me one day, oh, you should, you should be,
you should call yourself a radio Futurologist. And I thought, well, I quite, I quite like
that. So yes, I will do that. But, you know, certainly my last 20 years in the industry,
I've been a radio DJ, I've written radio commercials, but the last 20 years in the
industry has been really very much around helping people understand what's next. And
particularly in terms of radio, helping them understand what's next, looking at the consumption
of radio, looking at how people are consuming audio, and whether that's live radio or on
demand or podcasting, you know, it's been very much focused on that sort of, on that
sort of thing. So, you know, if, if anything, calling yourself a radio Futurologist means
that you'll be the only one. There is in fact, one other radio Futurologist who is a nice
man who I know in Ghana, who decided that after I did some, some training, he will call
himself a radio Futurologist as well, which I thought was quite funny.
That's nice. Yeah, yeah, but it's a good, you know, it's a good, it's a good name,
isn't it? So yeah, I think that that works.
That plays a part in the community presence in podcasting that we feel, right? You teach
somebody something, they absorb your title and think it's okay. It's great. And then
everybody's happy and nobody seems to get upset about it, which is kind of funny.
Yeah, but I think also, you know, podcasting is a very open and friendly industry. I mean,
as so we should be, we're still tiny and, and actually growing is a very important part
of what we can do to the industry to make it better. And so, you know, I think if you
go to a podcast movement, if you go to, you know, the podcast show, it seems a much more
friendly experience than if you go to, you know, a bit more of a legacy medium where
you get people who aren't very keen on sharing, sharing much, if anything. And actually, you
know, sharing your successes, but also frankly, sharing your, your failures is probably a
good thing for all of us. And so I'm, you know, always really excited when you hear
so much, um, working together in podcast conferences. That's always a good thing.
Blunders, you care to share? Am I leading down a path that to get me punched in the
face, James, so now you're talking about failure. So I thought I'd ask, I'm curious.
Any blunders? I don't think so. I mean, I think, you know, um, um, you know, I mean,
I think, I think from a point of view, everything is a learning experience, isn't it? And even
if you, um, you know, even if you do something that probably wasn't the right move, you know,
eventually, um, you still learn an awful lot of things out of that. So, you know, I'd,
I'd worked, I've been, you know, relatively successful working at the original Virgin
Radio in, um, uh, the early 2000s and was head hunted to go and work for the BBC. And,
you know, if, if you've ever, you know, followed media, you'll know, my goodness, you know,
the BBC, it's a tremendous place and you should definitely work there. And, you know, and
so I, I jumped at the chance and, you know, in retrospect, probably that was a bit of
a mistake. I lasted a couple of years there, um, but it wasn't a great time for the, for
the corporation. Um, wasn't a particularly good time for me either. Um, and, um, you
know, I've, I've certainly learned a lot about my skills and, um, and, and some of my lack
of skills and that's probably a useful thing, but I certainly wouldn't be, you know, I wouldn't
be doing what I do now. Um, uh, you know, had, had that gone a little bit differently
anyway. So, um, you know, I think, I think you learn from, uh, from everything, don't
you?
Absolutely. I know Top Gear, the three gentlemen, uh, James, um, Jeremy Clarkson, he, he always
had his, his stick, his personality and very far out there. And he had the issues with
BBC. And I thought that may be just a bit of drama in the media, but perhaps there's
something about it. Some bigger companies, they don't always have the right frame of
mind for the people who work there, I suppose. I don't know.
No. And I, and I think it's different. Uh, I, you know, I think the BBC, um, looks after
its talent very well. Um, uh, and, um, but is full of red tape and you know, anything
that you do has to go through 400 different people. Um, all of one, you know, all of one
can turn around and say, and say, no, um, no, you can't do that. Um, and so I think,
you know, it's just a very large, as, as that happens with, you know, with Google, as that
happens with Microsoft, it's just a very large organization and it's quite difficult to make
changes. And I think, you know, having moved from Virgin Radio where we had a total employee
count of, I think, 83 moving over from Virgin Radio to the BBC, which had 23,000 employees,
um, uh, you know, it's, it, it, it's a different world. Um, but I think that what you can do,
um, you know, at the, um, you know, as a company that's as large as that, once you've, um,
once you understand how to, you know, get, get around it and how, how to, you know, get
things actually done in that, in that sort of organization, then you can clearly affect,
um, far greater change because it's such a large organization. There are so many things
going on, you know, inside it.
May I ask if Podnews is approaching BBC size or do you still have some way to go?
Um, oh, in terms of what, in terms of employees?
Success. I mean, there's 30,000 followers and subscribers, right? You got to be there.
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's lovely to, it, uh, the, the strange thing about Podnews, we've
got about 20, um, about 29,500 ish, but the strange thing about, um, that is that, um,
we're quite, um, we're quite sensitive to, um, cuts in the industry. Um, so we've gone
through this year, we've gone through, um, some periods of, um, cutbacks in the industry,
whether that's from Spotify, whether that's from public radio in the U S, um, or other
companies as well. And actually that has impacts on the amount of people that are getting the
Podnews newsletter every single day, um, which is, which is fascinating. So, you know, you
look at that and you go, oh, well, you know, um, uh, may, maybe, uh, maybe this has reached
a natural, um, a natural reach figure and it's, and it's probably going to stay here
for quite some time. Um, but also, you know, of course, as a business, it doesn't necessarily
matter how many people are getting that particular newsletter. Um, because once you're a particular
size, you know, you're not going to get another, another $5,000 if you've got another hundred
people, you know, getting it. It doesn't, it doesn't work that way. So, you know, there
is a, there is a fine out size to all of this, but certainly, you know, what, what I find
quite humbling is you walk through the, um, you know, the halls of, of, um, of podcast
conferences and I'm normally wearing a, a Podnews branded shirt. Um, and people stop
me and they say, you're the guy, you're the guy from, from, from that newsletter that
I read every single morning. Um, and that's quite, and that's quite, uh, you know, quite,
quite sort of humbling and exciting that, uh, there is so much recognition for a brand
that I basically came up with, um, after a chance conversation in a pub in, in, in LA,
weirdly enough. So, um, yeah, so it's nice to, to actually see that seven or eight years
later.
That's pretty cool. You can go into any bar in the Western hemisphere and say, Hey, everybody
knows this. That's, that's kind of nice. That's a legacy that you're, you're starting perhaps,
you know, it's not a bad feeling.
Yeah. But, but, but I think, you know, I mean, I'm trying to help the industry. I'm trying
to move parts of the industry forward. Um, I think I understand enough about what drives
the industry and what, you know, what drives creators having been, you know, uh, create,
create a radio presenter myself a long, long time ago, but also being a podcaster myself,
you know, I think I would hope that I understood, you know, what, what drives us, what we find
interesting. Um, and you know, and the things that are bad and need to be talked about.
Yeah.
Are there things that you have reported on that are hitting the internet airwaves on
pod news before industry experts got ahold of it? Have you been at that, um, sort of
cusp of news?
Well, I mean, I, you know, I mean, I think, um, quite a lot of the time I'm breaking a
fair amount of news. And I think what was, um, what was interesting, uh, in early 2018,
I did quite a lot of technical work on looking at, um, the I heart radio, um, podcasts and
trying to understand why they were so high in the pod track data, particularly their
short form, um, podcasts. There used to be a short form podcast chart, which, um, uh,
I heart was number one in, um, and I was looking at that chart and I was going, I don't, I
literally don't understand why some of these shows are as successful as they claim to be
in this chart. I wonder whether there's anything going on. And after doing a fair amount of
digging around, found out that I hearts are very successful commercial radio stations.
We're all linking to the audio and getting it played on every single page load of every
single, um, website, um, you know, on the I heart network. So if you went to visit Z 100,
um, then, uh, that, um, would silently download the, the audio for this particular show. Um,
and that was another tick onto the, onto the pod track numbers. And so I thought to myself,
wow, uh, you know, that is, that is a proper story. Um, and, uh, I think, you know, I'm,
I was lucky that, you know, that was about four, five, five months into what I was doing.
And all of a sudden that was a story that no one else had seen. No one else had had
completely understood. And I was very lucky to be able to break that then. Um, and you
know, and to help people understand, yeah, you know, that actually those numbers that
you were seeing weren't necessarily as correct as you might, might've thought that they were
and lots of, and, and, you know, has, uh, and, uh, we've changed, changed the industry
in terms of that, in terms of how you embed audio, um, you know, how you count a, you
know, a download, uh, all of that kind of information has really changed after the reporting
of, you know, this was clearly bogus, bogus numbers and advertisers weren't being served
and nor was, was, w w were the public in terms of those particular numbers. So, you know,
I think that there's been, um, a few big stories like that every year that I've been able to,
um, to, to a break and being able to slightly, slightly change the industry. But hopefully
for the better, I think. Hopefully. I mean, if somebody is taking SEO back linking to a
whole new level and you can uncover that it's kind of nice, but what about, what about,
um, the future? I know YouTube is pretty good at figuring out when, um, say videos can trail
off and I haven't seen great podcast stats to do that. Do you find that that would be
something coming up or is there maybe a hope or dream and that would maybe take us past
the niche and into mainstream once and for all? Yeah. I mean, you can get that information
by the way, um, in both Apple and in Spotify's data. So if you go and have a look at your
show in the, in the Apple podcasts connect, I think they call it or in Spotify for podcasters,
then both of those will show you where people are, um, skipping and where people are just
sort of, um, I can't be bothered to listen any longer. Um, and all that kind of stuff.
So you can grab that from Apple, you can grab that from Spotify and also grab demographic
information and everything else. And I think that's probably one of the, um, one of the,
the, of the fake stories about podcasting is that it's analytics is bad. Um, actually
we've probably got better analytics in the podcasting world than any other media in terms
of being able to see, um, a lot of, um, a lot of consumption, uh, uh, detail both from
Apple and from Spotify and from download numbers to be able to actually look at all of those
different pieces of pieces of information. You can put that information, uh, public if
you want, so that other people can actually see, you know, some of that, um, uh, too.
Um, and if you compare that to something like, you know, broadcast radio, which is so much
bigger in terms of revenue. Um, but what you're measuring with, uh, by measuring broadcast
radios numbers is you're measuring a tiny amount of, uh, you know, 1% of the people
out there who are carrying around a little electronic device. And then those numbers
are times up by how many people live in that, in that particular area. And you get this
sort of estimate, which is not a bad estimate, but there again, you can compare that with
a, where we are in podcasting and you can see that we are in actually a tremendous place.
Um, so, you know, so I think that that's, um, you know, uh, analytics isn't necessarily
a thing. I think from my point of view, where the future is going is, um, the, the future
is a bit of a, of a dangerous place. Some, some, somehow in that we've got three ways
forward. We've got one way forward of, um, Spotify being, um, being the market leader
and controlling everything. We've got YouTube snapping at its heels and indeed Apple podcasts
actually snapping at Spotify's heels in some way, um, uh, launching their own proprietary
systems and, um, and different ways of doing podcasting, or you've got open podcasting.
What podcasting was conceived at being 20 years ago, um, was something which was open,
something where you have a direct connection with your listener. Um, something which is,
um, which is available on any number of different, uh, of different apps, um, and is, you know,
an open and growing industry. And I think, um, we kind of need to remember that podcasting
is open and that's one of its strengths. That's why it's as big as it is. And it wouldn't
be anywhere near as big as it, as, as it currently is, if it was just hidden away in some, uh,
you know, in some apps somewhere. I don't think that that would be particularly helpful.
I do see that it's unfortunate, even though the barriers are dropping, right? The tech
barriers are not a thing anymore. Just press and go. But there's so many people that show
up and then all of a sudden, uh, seven episodes later, this is a lot of work. I'm out. Do
you think that there'd be an opportunity for people to maybe be more educated and plan
and understand what they're getting themselves into or who cares? Just have fun and figure
it out. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there are a lot of people who are really helping
podcasters understand, um, how to avoid, um, you know, that issue where you make something
and then after, um, and then after seven episodes, as you say, you just run out of steam. I think,
you know, a lot of the good podcast hosts are spending some time, you know, helping
people, um, holding people's hands, moving people on. Um, but I think, you know, what,
what, what we certainly saw during the pandemic, for example, was lots of people getting involved
in podcasts because, because they knew that they could, because this was something that
you can do from your house. Um, and then realizing that actually podcasting is quite difficult.
Um, Spotify has found that if you look at Spotify's, you know, whole strategy, Spotify
thought that if you just piled some money in, signed up some big names, um, that, uh,
they were, that that would guarantee people, um, you know, a big podcasting hit, it doesn't
quite work that way. And, um, what I think, um, comes as a surprise to people who are
new to the world of audio is that actually, you know what, it's quite difficult. It's
quite difficult to do a really good job with this. Um, and so you see lots of people having
real success, but you of course see lots of people not having particular success, but
I don't think it's necessarily different to any other industry. You know, I mean, there
are more than a million books published in the U S alone every year. Um, and nobody says
that there are too many books. Um, nobody looks at, yeah, nobody looks at, you know,
the fact that, you know, um, uh, so and so, and so he written two books and, and that's
it and says, well, that's book fade. It's book fade for you. Um, so I think, uh, you
know, we should cut ourselves a little bit of slack, you know, as an industry, I guess.
Absolutely. And, and I know you're a big fan of reading your newsletters because, uh, people
may not feel like reading them. Where can they go to learn more about things and where
you read things to people like bedtime stories? I don't quite read bedtime stories, but, um,
yeah, I mean, you know, the, the, the reason, uh, so pod news is obviously a newsletter
and please sign up pod news.net it's free. Um, and you can get ahold of that. Um, there
is a podcast version of it, um, which you'll find in your, in your favorite podcast app.
Um, and, um, the reason why it's there, by the way, is nothing to do with the fact that,
um, you know, it might be fun to do a podcast. I mean, it's got some, something to do with
that, but it's actually part of the workflow of producing a newsletter is that final read
through I've got to do a final read through anyway. I've got to read it aloud because
if you read something aloud that you've just written, if you read it aloud, then chances
are you'll spot far more mistakes, um, than if you're just reading it to yourself. So
read it aloud. Um, and then I thought, well, I'm reading this aloud. I might as well record
it. Um, so, you know, so there we are. So it's available as a podcast. If you want to end
up doing that, um, uh, then that's good. I would say that the podcast is good, but the
newsletter is better. Um, and then there's a, um, uh, there's a hour long version of
that. Um, well, it's not really a version of the newsletter. It's an hour long, you know,
opinion and an interview show called the pod news weekly review, um, which, uh, again is
available in your, in your favorite podcast app. Um, and that is, uh, and that contains
a bunch of interviews, a bunch of, um, conversations about some of the big stories over the past
week and so on. And that's great fun to do too. And if people aren't in the, uh, the
space or the privilege to, to advertise, uh, maybe they can just try the patron instead.
Throw a few bucks at James and pod news and at least support in their own way, right?
Get it out there and help you do your thing. Yeah. I mean, always, always grateful for
that. I think, you know, it's been very interesting seeing the support from individuals, the support
from, um, uh, you know, from companies, uh, and so on, and actually seeing how that works
alongside advertising. Cause obviously the newsletter contains, um, contains advertising,
whether it's classifieds or whether it's, um, you know, big, big, uh, big sponsorships
and things. But I think it's, it's been really interesting having that nice balance and quite
a healthy balance in between people that are desperate to advertise stuff, um, and people
who just want you to succeed and are helping you, um, with, uh, with, uh, you know, whether
it's, um, one or $2 a month through, through, uh, through a Patriot and everything, everything
helps. And I think it's a really nice, healthy balance to have a good mix of that kind of
income. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for dispelling all the myths about, uh, seasoned veterans.
James has been great. I open her and learn a few things. It's nice. Yeah. Yeah. It's
been a, it's been a great pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much. We should do it
again. Let's start a podcast.