1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Tis I, Lord Podcast. Are you yearning to equip yourself with the confidence to record? 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:12,160 Elijah, the skilled podcast professional, is preparing himself for a tale of tools and 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:17,480 skill that only a mighty podcaster may employ in one's podcast journey. 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,760 Elijah, I do believe that we shall teach our weary wanderer the confidence that they strive 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,760 to achieve. Shall we start a podcast? 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,240 We shall! It's settled. 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,320 Let's start a podcast. 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:37,640 Let's start a podcast, shall we? James Cridlin, the mister of pad news, a 30-year veteran. 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,800 James, welcome. Thanks for joining. Thanks for having time to talk shop. I appreciate 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:42,800 it. 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,840 Well, it's a great pleasure to be here. Thank you very much. Obviously, I'm not a 30-year 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,520 veteran of podcasting because that would be impossible, but certainly a 30-year veteran 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:51,520 of audio, yeah. 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:58,080 I knew you would clarify once in a while. It's night time for me, daytime for you. You're 15 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,880 fresh. I'm still trying to figure out if I need a nap. So thank you for that. 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,360 That's great. 17 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:09,520 May I ask if you always sign up for podcast interviews after your 14-hour flights? Is 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,560 this just life for you? It's pure craziness? 19 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,160 Yeah, well, you know. Yes, I have. Yeah. So I've just come off a 14-hour flight from 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:26,320 LA and before that, a three-hour flight from Mexico. So obviously, I'm top of the world, 21 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:31,240 completely awake and everything else. But there we are. But yeah, so I was down in Mexico 22 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:38,200 for a podcast conference down there. It was fascinating. It was my first time in the country. 23 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:43,480 And yeah, and there's a real movement there and real sort of excitement about what podcasting 24 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,680 can be all about. So yeah, that was really good. 25 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:52,580 Good. And then you had the podcast movement. That was recent. I know on your highlights 26 00:01:52,580 --> 00:01:56,580 and something exciting to hit Denver. Does that compare? Are they all the same in every 27 00:01:56,580 --> 00:01:59,360 country or do they have their own little flares? 28 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,480 I think there are two big events that I go to every year, podcast movement and podcast 29 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,400 movement evolutions. But I also go to the podcast show in London, which is again a very 30 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,880 large event, lots of people there. And to be honest, the first time I went there, you 31 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:20,240 can tell that I'm a Brit, even though I'm speaking to you from Australia. But when I 32 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:26,440 went there to the podcast show in London, it kind of almost made me feel patriotic. 33 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:35,720 That we see America thinking that they invented podcasting and thinking that podcasting is 34 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:42,800 us. And then finally, actually seeing a really big event run in the UK where I was born, 35 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:49,000 where I grew up. And yeah, that was a really exciting thing. But yeah, there are events 36 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:54,920 all across the world these days. And it's great to be at some of those, whether they're 37 00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:59,960 podcast events or radio events, which I still do a fair amount of. So yeah, it's always 38 00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:03,600 good to go around the world and see some of those. 39 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:08,880 Do you think that you'd still be doing radio events, even if you didn't get the, I think 40 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,240 it's a Foster's box of cereal where you got the radio back when you're six or seven years 41 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:14,240 old? 42 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:15,240 Oh, the Frosty's box. Yeah. 43 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:20,160 Do you think that would change the world that happened if you didn't save up those tokens? 44 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,560 Or do you think it's to be the same? 45 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:29,960 I think, well, you know, so I mean, I've found that little free radio that I got with some 46 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:35,140 Frosty's. I found absolutely fascinating. I couldn't work out where the voices were 47 00:03:35,140 --> 00:03:43,160 coming from. And so of course, being a six or seven year old boy, I had to take the thing 48 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:50,640 apart to find out where the voices were coming from, which was really interesting. But I 49 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:56,560 actually didn't listen to it as much as perhaps I should do because I was worried that I would 50 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,800 use up all of the content that was inside. I didn't really fully understand how radio 51 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:08,320 works back in those days. But yeah, so that was certainly a thing that got me involved 52 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:14,680 and interested in audio and interested in all that sort of stuff. So yeah, it was a 53 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:23,440 great first toy, I guess, into understanding what audio is all about and understanding 54 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,200 the sorts of things that you could do with that. 55 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:31,740 And now you've understand how things click, I hope. Have you counted how many guest appearance 56 00:04:31,740 --> 00:04:36,880 you've had on radio and podcasts or is it just forget it? It's too many. 57 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:43,120 Oh, you know, I mean, I always enjoy being a guest on other people's shows. That's always 58 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,880 good. But I also, you know, I mean, I write about radio every so often, I write about 59 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:54,000 podcasting every single day. And, you know, so I'm always in contact with lots of different 60 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,320 people. And I think that that's one of the most exciting parts about, you know, being 61 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:05,280 involved in an industry, particularly the audio industry for over 30 years, means that, 62 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:10,240 you know, there's a lot of people who I can help put other people in contact with and 63 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:15,840 can, you know, and a lot of experience from across the world. And I think, you know, possibly 64 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:20,660 that's one of the differences between radio and podcasting. Whereas radio is very much 65 00:05:20,660 --> 00:05:28,120 focused on where you are. It's focused on your city or your state or maybe the country. 66 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:33,440 But that's about as far as it goes. No one is really very interested in the radio business. 67 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,480 You know, if you're in the US, why would you be interested in what's going on in Norway 68 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,640 or what's going on in, you know, other parts of the, you know, of the world as well? So 69 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,760 I think from that, from that point of view, I think there's an awful lot to be learned 70 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:51,180 from from different people across the world. And podcasting has always been a little bit 71 00:05:51,180 --> 00:05:56,320 more global, a little bit more open. But, you know, but I think that radio is very, 72 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:01,240 very much focused on just itself. And I think that that's a bit of a mistake. 73 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,800 It's nice to not have to have a shortwave or ham radio license to hear someone across 74 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,960 the world either. Just it's a tech. It's just all the barriers are gone. You just push a 75 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,680 button and I can hear you across the pond. It's wonderful. 76 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:19,440 Yeah, yeah, no, indeed. Indeed. It's, it's, you know, I mean, if you were asking me whether 77 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:25,880 I would have, you know, expected to be, you know, just having a chat with somebody across 78 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,520 the internet, across the internet, when I was 30 years ago, I mean, obviously not, you 79 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,840 know, I mean, it's made a tremendous change to all of us, hasn't it? 80 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:38,240 Absolutely. Have you made any tremendous changes since 2005 and podcasting? Have you been a 81 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,960 part of any grandeur or exciting things that have kind of changed the evolution of podcasting? 82 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:49,600 Well, I mean, you know, early 2005, I was part of the team that made the first daily 83 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:57,600 podcast for a radio station where I was working in London. And, and also on in the same month, 84 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:03,880 actually, we also the radio station launched the first, well, we called it a 3G tuner. 85 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,600 It was the first mobile phone app that you could stream a radio station from anywhere 86 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:16,040 in the world. And it was available on, I think, four Symbian phones. So, you know, so there 87 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,800 you go, there's a, there's a thing. But it was quite fun in terms of, you know, in terms 88 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,680 of getting that going, but then very interesting in terms of being able to move that on and 89 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:33,840 to, you know, work with some, some pieces of technology to make, you know, radio and 90 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:38,480 audio available in lots of different forms. And I think that that's been a really interesting 91 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:39,640 time. 92 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,280 Is that where you get the nickname, the Futurologist? Or is this something you just stamped on a 93 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,560 business card in college one day? 94 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:51,120 Well, I talk about the radio Futurologist as if, as if it's a thing. Of course, the 95 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,160 card is really Futurist, not Futurologist, but I've always fancied Anology. So I thought 96 00:07:56,160 --> 00:08:02,080 I would get that. Someone actually said to me one day, oh, you should, you should be, 97 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,400 you should call yourself a radio Futurologist. And I thought, well, I quite, I quite like 98 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:11,320 that. So yes, I will do that. But, you know, certainly my last 20 years in the industry, 99 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:16,720 I've been a radio DJ, I've written radio commercials, but the last 20 years in the 100 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:22,000 industry has been really very much around helping people understand what's next. And 101 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,960 particularly in terms of radio, helping them understand what's next, looking at the consumption 102 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:32,240 of radio, looking at how people are consuming audio, and whether that's live radio or on 103 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:39,320 demand or podcasting, you know, it's been very much focused on that sort of, on that 104 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:44,640 sort of thing. So, you know, if, if anything, calling yourself a radio Futurologist means 105 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:51,140 that you'll be the only one. There is in fact, one other radio Futurologist who is a nice 106 00:08:51,140 --> 00:08:56,560 man who I know in Ghana, who decided that after I did some, some training, he will call 107 00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:00,840 himself a radio Futurologist as well, which I thought was quite funny. 108 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:07,040 That's nice. Yeah, yeah, but it's a good, you know, it's a good, it's a good name, 109 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,580 isn't it? So yeah, I think that that works. 110 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:14,400 That plays a part in the community presence in podcasting that we feel, right? You teach 111 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:19,680 somebody something, they absorb your title and think it's okay. It's great. And then 112 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:23,600 everybody's happy and nobody seems to get upset about it, which is kind of funny. 113 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:30,880 Yeah, but I think also, you know, podcasting is a very open and friendly industry. I mean, 114 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:36,760 as so we should be, we're still tiny and, and actually growing is a very important part 115 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:42,520 of what we can do to the industry to make it better. And so, you know, I think if you 116 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:47,600 go to a podcast movement, if you go to, you know, the podcast show, it seems a much more 117 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:55,000 friendly experience than if you go to, you know, a bit more of a legacy medium where 118 00:09:55,000 --> 00:10:01,600 you get people who aren't very keen on sharing, sharing much, if anything. And actually, you 119 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:07,400 know, sharing your successes, but also frankly, sharing your, your failures is probably a 120 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:12,080 good thing for all of us. And so I'm, you know, always really excited when you hear 121 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:17,840 so much, um, working together in podcast conferences. That's always a good thing. 122 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,000 Blunders, you care to share? Am I leading down a path that to get me punched in the 123 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:27,600 face, James, so now you're talking about failure. So I thought I'd ask, I'm curious. 124 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:33,560 Any blunders? I don't think so. I mean, I think, you know, um, um, you know, I mean, 125 00:10:33,560 --> 00:10:38,480 I think, I think from a point of view, everything is a learning experience, isn't it? And even 126 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:45,240 if you, um, you know, even if you do something that probably wasn't the right move, you know, 127 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:50,640 eventually, um, you still learn an awful lot of things out of that. So, you know, I'd, 128 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,640 I'd worked, I've been, you know, relatively successful working at the original Virgin 129 00:10:54,640 --> 00:11:02,800 Radio in, um, uh, the early 2000s and was head hunted to go and work for the BBC. And, 130 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:09,040 you know, if, if you've ever, you know, followed media, you'll know, my goodness, you know, 131 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:14,080 the BBC, it's a tremendous place and you should definitely work there. And, you know, and 132 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,040 so I, I jumped at the chance and, you know, in retrospect, probably that was a bit of 133 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,960 a mistake. I lasted a couple of years there, um, but it wasn't a great time for the, for 134 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:29,400 the corporation. Um, wasn't a particularly good time for me either. Um, and, um, you 135 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:35,300 know, I've, I've certainly learned a lot about my skills and, um, and, and some of my lack 136 00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:40,440 of skills and that's probably a useful thing, but I certainly wouldn't be, you know, I wouldn't 137 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:45,800 be doing what I do now. Um, uh, you know, had, had that gone a little bit differently 138 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,680 anyway. So, um, you know, I think, I think you learn from, uh, from everything, don't 139 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:51,680 you? 140 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:57,640 Absolutely. I know Top Gear, the three gentlemen, uh, James, um, Jeremy Clarkson, he, he always 141 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,800 had his, his stick, his personality and very far out there. And he had the issues with 142 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:08,280 BBC. And I thought that may be just a bit of drama in the media, but perhaps there's 143 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:13,840 something about it. Some bigger companies, they don't always have the right frame of 144 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,880 mind for the people who work there, I suppose. I don't know. 145 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:22,480 No. And I, and I think it's different. Uh, I, you know, I think the BBC, um, looks after 146 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:29,200 its talent very well. Um, uh, and, um, but is full of red tape and you know, anything 147 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:36,440 that you do has to go through 400 different people. Um, all of one, you know, all of one 148 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:43,040 can turn around and say, and say, no, um, no, you can't do that. Um, and so I think, 149 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:48,320 you know, it's just a very large, as, as that happens with, you know, with Google, as that 150 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,460 happens with Microsoft, it's just a very large organization and it's quite difficult to make 151 00:12:52,460 --> 00:12:58,360 changes. And I think, you know, having moved from Virgin Radio where we had a total employee 152 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:05,520 count of, I think, 83 moving over from Virgin Radio to the BBC, which had 23,000 employees, 153 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:12,720 um, uh, you know, it's, it, it, it's a different world. Um, but I think that what you can do, 154 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:19,560 um, you know, at the, um, you know, as a company that's as large as that, once you've, um, 155 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:25,000 once you understand how to, you know, get, get around it and how, how to, you know, get 156 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,400 things actually done in that, in that sort of organization, then you can clearly affect, 157 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:35,220 um, far greater change because it's such a large organization. There are so many things 158 00:13:35,220 --> 00:13:37,640 going on, you know, inside it. 159 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:43,000 May I ask if Podnews is approaching BBC size or do you still have some way to go? 160 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,600 Um, oh, in terms of what, in terms of employees? 161 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:51,880 Success. I mean, there's 30,000 followers and subscribers, right? You got to be there. 162 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:57,520 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's lovely to, it, uh, the, the strange thing about Podnews, we've 163 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:07,880 got about 20, um, about 29,500 ish, but the strange thing about, um, that is that, um, 164 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:14,480 we're quite, um, we're quite sensitive to, um, cuts in the industry. Um, so we've gone 165 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:21,760 through this year, we've gone through, um, some periods of, um, cutbacks in the industry, 166 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:26,320 whether that's from Spotify, whether that's from public radio in the U S, um, or other 167 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:32,040 companies as well. And actually that has impacts on the amount of people that are getting the 168 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,440 Podnews newsletter every single day, um, which is, which is fascinating. So, you know, you 169 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:44,720 look at that and you go, oh, well, you know, um, uh, may, maybe, uh, maybe this has reached 170 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:50,400 a natural, um, a natural reach figure and it's, and it's probably going to stay here 171 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:55,940 for quite some time. Um, but also, you know, of course, as a business, it doesn't necessarily 172 00:14:55,940 --> 00:15:02,080 matter how many people are getting that particular newsletter. Um, because once you're a particular 173 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:08,000 size, you know, you're not going to get another, another $5,000 if you've got another hundred 174 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,640 people, you know, getting it. It doesn't, it doesn't work that way. So, you know, there 175 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,440 is a, there is a fine out size to all of this, but certainly, you know, what, what I find 176 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:22,640 quite humbling is you walk through the, um, you know, the halls of, of, um, of podcast 177 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:28,120 conferences and I'm normally wearing a, a Podnews branded shirt. Um, and people stop 178 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:32,160 me and they say, you're the guy, you're the guy from, from, from that newsletter that 179 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,880 I read every single morning. Um, and that's quite, and that's quite, uh, you know, quite, 180 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:42,840 quite sort of humbling and exciting that, uh, there is so much recognition for a brand 181 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:50,200 that I basically came up with, um, after a chance conversation in a pub in, in, in LA, 182 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,200 weirdly enough. So, um, yeah, so it's nice to, to actually see that seven or eight years 183 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:55,200 later. 184 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:01,320 That's pretty cool. You can go into any bar in the Western hemisphere and say, Hey, everybody 185 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:06,320 knows this. That's, that's kind of nice. That's a legacy that you're, you're starting perhaps, 186 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,280 you know, it's not a bad feeling. 187 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,640 Yeah. But, but, but I think, you know, I mean, I'm trying to help the industry. I'm trying 188 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:18,320 to move parts of the industry forward. Um, I think I understand enough about what drives 189 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:25,320 the industry and what, you know, what drives creators having been, you know, uh, create, 190 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:31,520 create a radio presenter myself a long, long time ago, but also being a podcaster myself, 191 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:36,400 you know, I think I would hope that I understood, you know, what, what drives us, what we find 192 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,920 interesting. Um, and you know, and the things that are bad and need to be talked about. 193 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:42,920 Yeah. 194 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,800 Are there things that you have reported on that are hitting the internet airwaves on 195 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:54,840 pod news before industry experts got ahold of it? Have you been at that, um, sort of 196 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,640 cusp of news? 197 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:02,040 Well, I mean, I, you know, I mean, I think, um, quite a lot of the time I'm breaking a 198 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:09,640 fair amount of news. And I think what was, um, what was interesting, uh, in early 2018, 199 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:18,400 I did quite a lot of technical work on looking at, um, the I heart radio, um, podcasts and 200 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:24,720 trying to understand why they were so high in the pod track data, particularly their 201 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:30,960 short form, um, podcasts. There used to be a short form podcast chart, which, um, uh, 202 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,920 I heart was number one in, um, and I was looking at that chart and I was going, I don't, I 203 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,440 literally don't understand why some of these shows are as successful as they claim to be 204 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:46,400 in this chart. I wonder whether there's anything going on. And after doing a fair amount of 205 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:52,400 digging around, found out that I hearts are very successful commercial radio stations. 206 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:58,200 We're all linking to the audio and getting it played on every single page load of every 207 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:06,000 single, um, website, um, you know, on the I heart network. So if you went to visit Z 100, 208 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:13,920 um, then, uh, that, um, would silently download the, the audio for this particular show. Um, 209 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:19,040 and that was another tick onto the, onto the pod track numbers. And so I thought to myself, 210 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:25,200 wow, uh, you know, that is, that is a proper story. Um, and, uh, I think, you know, I'm, 211 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:31,760 I was lucky that, you know, that was about four, five, five months into what I was doing. 212 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,880 And all of a sudden that was a story that no one else had seen. No one else had had 213 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,640 completely understood. And I was very lucky to be able to break that then. Um, and you 214 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,560 know, and to help people understand, yeah, you know, that actually those numbers that 215 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,880 you were seeing weren't necessarily as correct as you might, might've thought that they were 216 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:55,240 and lots of, and, and, you know, has, uh, and, uh, we've changed, changed the industry 217 00:18:55,240 --> 00:19:01,640 in terms of that, in terms of how you embed audio, um, you know, how you count a, you 218 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:07,240 know, a download, uh, all of that kind of information has really changed after the reporting 219 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:13,160 of, you know, this was clearly bogus, bogus numbers and advertisers weren't being served 220 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:18,520 and nor was, was, w w were the public in terms of those particular numbers. So, you know, 221 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:23,880 I think that there's been, um, a few big stories like that every year that I've been able to, 222 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,320 um, to, to a break and being able to slightly, slightly change the industry. But hopefully 223 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:35,680 for the better, I think. Hopefully. I mean, if somebody is taking SEO back linking to a 224 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:40,560 whole new level and you can uncover that it's kind of nice, but what about, what about, 225 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:46,880 um, the future? I know YouTube is pretty good at figuring out when, um, say videos can trail 226 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:52,840 off and I haven't seen great podcast stats to do that. Do you find that that would be 227 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,360 something coming up or is there maybe a hope or dream and that would maybe take us past 228 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:02,860 the niche and into mainstream once and for all? Yeah. I mean, you can get that information 229 00:20:02,860 --> 00:20:08,080 by the way, um, in both Apple and in Spotify's data. So if you go and have a look at your 230 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:13,000 show in the, in the Apple podcasts connect, I think they call it or in Spotify for podcasters, 231 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:18,440 then both of those will show you where people are, um, skipping and where people are just 232 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,680 sort of, um, I can't be bothered to listen any longer. Um, and all that kind of stuff. 233 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,080 So you can grab that from Apple, you can grab that from Spotify and also grab demographic 234 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:32,840 information and everything else. And I think that's probably one of the, um, one of the, 235 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:39,760 the, of the fake stories about podcasting is that it's analytics is bad. Um, actually 236 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:45,640 we've probably got better analytics in the podcasting world than any other media in terms 237 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:52,520 of being able to see, um, a lot of, um, a lot of consumption, uh, uh, detail both from 238 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:57,520 Apple and from Spotify and from download numbers to be able to actually look at all of those 239 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,320 different pieces of pieces of information. You can put that information, uh, public if 240 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:07,080 you want, so that other people can actually see, you know, some of that, um, uh, too. 241 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,360 Um, and if you compare that to something like, you know, broadcast radio, which is so much 242 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:17,200 bigger in terms of revenue. Um, but what you're measuring with, uh, by measuring broadcast 243 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:23,760 radios numbers is you're measuring a tiny amount of, uh, you know, 1% of the people 244 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:29,340 out there who are carrying around a little electronic device. And then those numbers 245 00:21:29,340 --> 00:21:34,260 are times up by how many people live in that, in that particular area. And you get this 246 00:21:34,260 --> 00:21:39,000 sort of estimate, which is not a bad estimate, but there again, you can compare that with 247 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,520 a, where we are in podcasting and you can see that we are in actually a tremendous place. 248 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,640 Um, so, you know, so I think that that's, um, you know, uh, analytics isn't necessarily 249 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:54,480 a thing. I think from my point of view, where the future is going is, um, the, the future 250 00:21:54,480 --> 00:22:01,520 is a bit of a, of a dangerous place. Some, some, somehow in that we've got three ways 251 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:07,240 forward. We've got one way forward of, um, Spotify being, um, being the market leader 252 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:13,240 and controlling everything. We've got YouTube snapping at its heels and indeed Apple podcasts 253 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:20,200 actually snapping at Spotify's heels in some way, um, uh, launching their own proprietary 254 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:27,820 systems and, um, and different ways of doing podcasting, or you've got open podcasting. 255 00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:35,240 What podcasting was conceived at being 20 years ago, um, was something which was open, 256 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:41,240 something where you have a direct connection with your listener. Um, something which is, 257 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:47,760 um, which is available on any number of different, uh, of different apps, um, and is, you know, 258 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:53,840 an open and growing industry. And I think, um, we kind of need to remember that podcasting 259 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,480 is open and that's one of its strengths. That's why it's as big as it is. And it wouldn't 260 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:04,560 be anywhere near as big as it, as, as it currently is, if it was just hidden away in some, uh, 261 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,280 you know, in some apps somewhere. I don't think that that would be particularly helpful. 262 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:13,560 I do see that it's unfortunate, even though the barriers are dropping, right? The tech 263 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,400 barriers are not a thing anymore. Just press and go. But there's so many people that show 264 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,640 up and then all of a sudden, uh, seven episodes later, this is a lot of work. I'm out. Do 265 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:28,200 you think that there'd be an opportunity for people to maybe be more educated and plan 266 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,560 and understand what they're getting themselves into or who cares? Just have fun and figure 267 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:38,040 it out. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there are a lot of people who are really helping 268 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:44,440 podcasters understand, um, how to avoid, um, you know, that issue where you make something 269 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:50,240 and then after, um, and then after seven episodes, as you say, you just run out of steam. I think, 270 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:55,200 you know, a lot of the good podcast hosts are spending some time, you know, helping 271 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:00,600 people, um, holding people's hands, moving people on. Um, but I think, you know, what, 272 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,600 what, what we certainly saw during the pandemic, for example, was lots of people getting involved 273 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,400 in podcasts because, because they knew that they could, because this was something that 274 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:14,640 you can do from your house. Um, and then realizing that actually podcasting is quite difficult. 275 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:20,520 Um, Spotify has found that if you look at Spotify's, you know, whole strategy, Spotify 276 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,960 thought that if you just piled some money in, signed up some big names, um, that, uh, 277 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,960 they were, that that would guarantee people, um, you know, a big podcasting hit, it doesn't 278 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:36,720 quite work that way. And, um, what I think, um, comes as a surprise to people who are 279 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,520 new to the world of audio is that actually, you know what, it's quite difficult. It's 280 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:47,160 quite difficult to do a really good job with this. Um, and so you see lots of people having 281 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,200 real success, but you of course see lots of people not having particular success, but 282 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,600 I don't think it's necessarily different to any other industry. You know, I mean, there 283 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,960 are more than a million books published in the U S alone every year. Um, and nobody says 284 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:08,600 that there are too many books. Um, nobody looks at, yeah, nobody looks at, you know, 285 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,320 the fact that, you know, um, uh, so and so, and so he written two books and, and that's 286 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,840 it and says, well, that's book fade. It's book fade for you. Um, so I think, uh, you 287 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,880 know, we should cut ourselves a little bit of slack, you know, as an industry, I guess. 288 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:30,200 Absolutely. And, and I know you're a big fan of reading your newsletters because, uh, people 289 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,380 may not feel like reading them. Where can they go to learn more about things and where 290 00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:40,960 you read things to people like bedtime stories? I don't quite read bedtime stories, but, um, 291 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:46,800 yeah, I mean, you know, the, the, the reason, uh, so pod news is obviously a newsletter 292 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,360 and please sign up pod news.net it's free. Um, and you can get ahold of that. Um, there 293 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:57,560 is a podcast version of it, um, which you'll find in your, in your favorite podcast app. 294 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,920 Um, and, um, the reason why it's there, by the way, is nothing to do with the fact that, 295 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,680 um, you know, it might be fun to do a podcast. I mean, it's got some, something to do with 296 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,960 that, but it's actually part of the workflow of producing a newsletter is that final read 297 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,960 through I've got to do a final read through anyway. I've got to read it aloud because 298 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,980 if you read something aloud that you've just written, if you read it aloud, then chances 299 00:26:19,980 --> 00:26:25,040 are you'll spot far more mistakes, um, than if you're just reading it to yourself. So 300 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,120 read it aloud. Um, and then I thought, well, I'm reading this aloud. I might as well record 301 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:34,320 it. Um, so, you know, so there we are. So it's available as a podcast. If you want to end 302 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,440 up doing that, um, uh, then that's good. I would say that the podcast is good, but the 303 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:45,280 newsletter is better. Um, and then there's a, um, uh, there's a hour long version of 304 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,640 that. Um, well, it's not really a version of the newsletter. It's an hour long, you know, 305 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:56,060 opinion and an interview show called the pod news weekly review, um, which, uh, again is 306 00:26:56,060 --> 00:27:01,120 available in your, in your favorite podcast app. Um, and that is, uh, and that contains 307 00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:07,040 a bunch of interviews, a bunch of, um, conversations about some of the big stories over the past 308 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:13,280 week and so on. And that's great fun to do too. And if people aren't in the, uh, the 309 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,960 space or the privilege to, to advertise, uh, maybe they can just try the patron instead. 310 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,880 Throw a few bucks at James and pod news and at least support in their own way, right? 311 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,320 Get it out there and help you do your thing. Yeah. I mean, always, always grateful for 312 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,760 that. I think, you know, it's been very interesting seeing the support from individuals, the support 313 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:38,800 from, um, uh, you know, from companies, uh, and so on, and actually seeing how that works 314 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:44,360 alongside advertising. Cause obviously the newsletter contains, um, contains advertising, 315 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:49,100 whether it's classifieds or whether it's, um, you know, big, big, uh, big sponsorships 316 00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:54,280 and things. But I think it's, it's been really interesting having that nice balance and quite 317 00:27:54,280 --> 00:28:00,920 a healthy balance in between people that are desperate to advertise stuff, um, and people 318 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:07,360 who just want you to succeed and are helping you, um, with, uh, with, uh, you know, whether 319 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:12,520 it's, um, one or $2 a month through, through, uh, through a Patriot and everything, everything 320 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,320 helps. And I think it's a really nice, healthy balance to have a good mix of that kind of 321 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:23,040 income. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for dispelling all the myths about, uh, seasoned veterans. 322 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:28,320 James has been great. I open her and learn a few things. It's nice. Yeah. Yeah. It's 323 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,480 been a, it's been a great pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much. We should do it 324 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:50,280 again. Let's start a podcast.