1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Tis I, Lord Podcast. Are you yearning to equip yourself with the confidence to record? 2 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:17,000 Elijah, the skilled podcast professional, is preparing himself for a tale of tools and skill that only a mighty podcaster may employ in one's podcast journey. 3 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:26,000 Elijah, I do believe that we shall teach our weary wanderer the confidence that they strive to achieve. Shall we start a podcast? 4 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:31,000 We shall. It's settled. Let's start a podcast. 5 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:42,000 Vicki here is the least boring lawyer you'll ever experience in your entire life, even though we're talking about IP and copyrights and all those things that she nerds out on, but nobody else cares. 6 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:51,000 But you should really care when you're starting a podcast. Vicki, thank you for being the coolest IP lawyer on the planet. Appreciate you joining. 7 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,000 Do I get an award? Can I get a plaque that says that? Because it's kind of like a plaque. 8 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,000 I can afford bragging rights. That's the budget. 9 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,000 I mean, okay, fine. I'll take bragging rights. 10 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,000 I'll sign up for a Starbucks gift card and send it your way. 11 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:10,000 No, that's fine. Nothing tangible. Just like a plaque that I could just hang in the background and people could be like, oh. 12 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Just something meaningless that only you care about. 13 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,000 Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's right. 14 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,000 Anything to stroke my ego. 15 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,000 I'm with you. Absolutely. We all need a little boost of confidence, even if it's just ourselves. 16 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:30,000 Totally. Exactly. Can you educate the uneducated about IP? Can you give us an idea what that means and why we should care? Start there. 17 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Yes. Well, let's talk about it in the podcast sense, right? Because that's what we're here for. 18 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:48,000 So there are two, maybe three types of intellectual property. That's what IP stands for that are relevant in the podcast sense. 19 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:55,000 And nobody really talks about them. Nobody really thinks about them because it's not fun to think about stuff like that. 20 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:08,000 So the three types of intellectual property that really can affect the podcast and you as the owner of the podcast, your rights, that is trademark. 21 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:18,000 And the trademark is really just the name, the logo, any sort of tagline that your podcast goes by. 22 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:25,000 And that is very important. And I'm going to talk about that in a minute. Why I just want to list them first. 23 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:33,000 Then you have the copyright, which is sort of the creative aspect of it. Right. 24 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:48,000 So you have the copyright, which is like the recordings, the jingles, the things like that, the things that people sort of connect to your to your podcast. 25 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:58,000 But, you know, if those things get stolen or if someone comes along and starts using them improperly, you want to be able to make sure that you can get that under control. 26 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:03,000 So you want to be able to make sure that you can get that under control. 27 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:22,920 And then you have the copyright, which is the kind of the 28 00:03:22,920 --> 00:03:34,920 desktop type thing or the kind of what is that tree background stuff that you're showing that makes you ready for the event. 29 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,920 ups skull. 30 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,920 A do you know what else that is, right? 31 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,400 Project! 32 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,720 piece which is the trademark piece right so like I said trademarks are your 33 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:52,040 podcast name your logo your tagline right and why is that important well 34 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:57,720 think about it right like if you are starting out well first let me let me 35 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,680 let me let's talk about statistics right and I don't know if you know this 36 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:06,920 because I did this I looked into this a while ago but do you know how many active 37 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:12,160 podcasts are out there right now like do you have a number 300 500 million some 38 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,200 bonkers number yeah but that's insane right like how many people are doing 39 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,920 this and it's like every day there's a new one right and so like everybody 40 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,720 puts out this podcast thinking they're gonna be like the next best thing yeah 41 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:29,640 but like sure you can be right because you you can hit it big but if you're 42 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:35,800 just gonna go out there and you're just gonna like wing it without having any 43 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:39,880 sort of strategy in place and then I'm not just talking about like the 44 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:45,440 strategy for your podcast and why your podcast is unique but your IP strategy 45 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:50,640 which again most people do not think about you're not gonna get anywhere 46 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:56,800 right because these things you have to build this sort of foundation for your 47 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:02,720 podcast if the plan is to leverage this podcast and eventually you know sell it 48 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,600 take it to Spotify do whatever you want to do like if you're fine if you're 49 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,520 cool just like doing the podcast for you know a couple of people and you're just 50 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,120 finding it fun and it's not a business for you then do whatever you want but if 51 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:19,520 you are really thinking about it in like the big sense then it makes sense to be 52 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,960 prepared because like you said three five million I don't know how many of 53 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,800 them are out there but they're all trying to do the same thing so if you 54 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,880 are not protecting yourself if you're not differentiating yourself from the 55 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,040 start it's gonna be really hard to do that and so the trademark for example is 56 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:39,600 one of the ways that you can use to leverage whatever you're trying to do 57 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,640 right so the trademark will protect your name your logo your tagline and you 58 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,900 start with a really unique name right because if you actually go and you look 59 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:53,760 at all those like three or five billion podcasts like I work with podcasters all 60 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,800 the time right so they think that oh I'm so unique I have this like really unique 61 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,880 name and I'll just literally I'll do a quick Google search like I'm not even 62 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,040 talking about the trademark section I'm like really do you know there's like 12 63 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:09,200 other podcasts with the same exact name so how would somebody who's looking for 64 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:15,940 you find you if there are 12 with the same exact name right and so when you 65 00:06:15,940 --> 00:06:22,840 have this trademark you have the exclusive right to use that name and 66 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:29,920 exclude others from doing the same so that trademark if you're planning on 67 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,000 doing something big with this podcast ends up being really important right and 68 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:41,480 at the same time you also are protecting yourself in the sense that when you are 69 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,680 doing this trademark registration and search is like a whole formal process 70 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,600 you're making sure that there's already nobody out there doing the same thing as 71 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:55,240 you and you're not the one stepping on any feet and I think I showed you like 72 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:00,320 the content that I did on that a while ago which is Kristen Bell a couple of 73 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,400 years ago started her own podcast and she was talking about you know 74 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:10,300 inspirational women and so she started this podcast and it was called shattered 75 00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:15,160 glass I want to say right so she thought she was being unique just didn't bother 76 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,120 to do a search didn't bother to do anything just started this podcast she's 77 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:23,640 a very big personality obviously I was listening to it and then I noticed four 78 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:29,440 episodes in the name changes to we are supported by and I know where that came 79 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,880 from because her husband has a pretty big podcast armchair expert and that's 80 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,040 like a phrase that he uses in his podcast and I'm like why did they 81 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:43,200 suddenly just change the name of this podcast that everybody knew by this name 82 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,080 it was like related to the content of the podcast was a great name well it 83 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,960 turns out that there was already a shattered glass podcast doing the exact 84 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:56,320 same thing for like four years really like easily discoverable right like 85 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:01,400 you're Kristen Bell you probably have lawyers you probably have the ability to 86 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:08,600 Google but yeah and so it happens all the time it happens all the time like I 87 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,680 get podcast clients that come to me say you know what I have this great name I'm 88 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,560 gonna and I'm just like well did you at least do a Google search like are you 89 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,920 sure it's available and then literally just a Google search like you don't even 90 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,080 have to go too much in depth and you're like there's like 15 of them out there 91 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,640 that are like pretty much the exact same thing that you're doing what extent you 92 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,680 have to get to Vicki to be exhaustive or is that something that you would take on 93 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:36,800 part of your package to you know do all that's a great question 94 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:42,240 exhaustive again Google search tip of the iceberg exhaustive really is like a 95 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,960 full-blown trademark search because if you're gonna go ahead and you're going 96 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:52,040 to register it with like in the US it's the USPTO if you're in other countries 97 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:58,120 it's there whatever trademark office is over there you really do need to make 98 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,440 sure that you have that exclusive right because if you don't a you're gonna 99 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,480 waste time and money trying to register something that can't be registered and 100 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,560 B you're putting a big-ass target on your head and you're like please sue me 101 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:13,000 because I'm now trying to register this thing that I can't register so it's a 102 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:18,800 very thorough search it searches again at least in the US it searches already 103 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:24,400 register trademarks it searches state databases to make sure because if you're 104 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:30,720 trying to use something in a trademark capacity it requires a very specific 105 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,200 search so just because something is out there doesn't necessarily mean that 106 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,480 somebody's using it in the trademark capacity it's sort of it's an analysis 107 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,800 it's a legal analysis and people are free to do it on their own like I have a 108 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,640 anybody's interested in wants to do it on their own I have a course you can 109 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:54,840 take but to do it on your own but it really is sort of an extensive legal 110 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,520 analysis with lots of databases and I don't even pretend that I like to do 111 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,240 that search on my own because it's literally like hundreds of databases 112 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:07,720 that would take me days if not months so I have like an AI program that does it 113 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,860 why would a big company go into this late in the game you talked about an 114 00:10:12,860 --> 00:10:20,000 extensive research Apple for example has a giant list of lawyers I'm sure of it 115 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,520 and now they decide to go after the fruit union in the Swiss to fight for 116 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:32,520 the Apple is that in that's their aisle they just jump is there a bullet okay 117 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:38,920 that's what Apple does that's just yes Apple is very very protective of their 118 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:45,360 IPs Apple is one of the most protective companies they will patent everything 119 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:53,000 trademark everything secure everything they go after any trademark that has an 120 00:10:53,000 --> 00:11:01,760 eye in it an Apple in it no matter for what industry they just want to make 121 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:07,360 sure that because what happens is when you have a big name like Apple they can 122 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,880 technically have their hand in everything right so like when you have a 123 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,960 trademark you only technically own that trademark in connection with how you're 124 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,400 using it right so like if you had a trademark for your podcast name that 125 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,400 doesn't necessarily mean that somebody who's making I don't know handbags can't 126 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,520 go and have the same exact name for a handbag brand right because you're using 127 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,000 they're using it for handbags you're using it for podcasts that's not related 128 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:36,200 but when you have a giant brand like Apple who can technically have their 129 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:42,320 hands in everything they're sort of awarded a much more broader spectrum of 130 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:49,400 protection and so because they are so vigilant enforcing those rights like 131 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,720 they don't care they want to be able to have you know access to anything they 132 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:59,760 want to do in the future and so at least at the USPTO they're very vigilant so I 133 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:06,560 was not so when I said I mean is it stupid is it a little like out I think 134 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:12,680 they're just testing the waters to see just how far they can get and you notice 135 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:19,040 that that wasn't in the United States I cannot speak to Swiss trademark law I'm 136 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:24,360 not licensed there but I'm guessing they're there they're testing the 137 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,480 waters just to see how far they can take this interesting I caught the article on 138 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,840 Wired magazine mid-june but I know you picked it up as well I also caught in 139 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:38,520 that Swiss Railway back in 2012 set a precedent where they had a settlement 140 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,760 showing that Apple copied the design of the clock for Swiss Railway I don't know 141 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,600 I love gossip so I'm thinking is this retaliation is this a thing that Apple 142 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,840 is doing and I wonder if you got all the time where people are just going tit-for-tat 143 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:56,320 no no they're not this is a very expensive game to play again not well 144 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,840 versed in Swiss trademark or patents or whatever how that works but I think with 145 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,680 this Apple really is just trying to see how far they can take it and how much 146 00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:11,560 they can get is there is there precedent set on setting an example or do they 147 00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:15,840 just go throw balls or spaghetti at the wall if you will and just with something 148 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,800 like this yeah I mean again in the United States very very vigilant no 149 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:26,000 matter like you know if a trademark is trying to get registered and it has an 150 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,280 Apple in it they've gone after pears too like they don't care they want all they 151 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:36,240 want a monopoly on all the fruit yeah they're there Apple has an entire 152 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:42,240 department of IP lawyers that do nothing but sit around and just monitor for 153 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:48,840 infringement all day and they're very good at it they find they find 154 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:54,280 everything like I've had in the past a client who had a mark that had the word 155 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:59,320 Apple in it and it was completely unrelated to anything that Apple does 156 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:04,600 like I can't say exactly but just trust me when I say is a completely 157 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:08,840 completely completely unrelated thing that Apple will never get into and they 158 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,320 opposed it and that's what they do because they know that these smaller 159 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,760 brands they don't have the money to fight them so so they kind of just like 160 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:20,040 whenever I tell people I'm like listen I anything Apple anything don't do it it's 161 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,000 not worth it doesn't matter related not related it's not worth it I have an a in 162 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:29,000 there hopefully I'm okay but we'll see yeah I think I mean you should be okay 163 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,440 the States that's more of your expertise and maybe stick there but if I have I 164 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:39,920 don't know Vicky podcast is is there some worry for me like if I don't listen 165 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,920 to the decent assist and deceased letter then obviously that could mean that I 166 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,240 could be in a whole lot of trouble yeah yeah I mean if you get a cease and 167 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:55,120 desist and depending on how it's worded and it really depends on you know a lot 168 00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:00,100 of lawyers will throw out cease and desist depend again depends on who it 169 00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:03,240 came from but a lot of companies will just throw out cease and desist if it's 170 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,280 like from Apple I would just drop everything because you're not gonna 171 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,920 fight them or any of the other big brands but just from a smaller brand it 172 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,400 really depends a lot of people try to enforce rights that they don't really 173 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:19,120 have that's a big thing and then you know a lot of these brands they don't 174 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,400 really want to spend the money on an attorney they'll either try to fight it 175 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,880 themselves and then end up winding it up in court in another state where they're 176 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,600 nowhere close to where they are and or they'll just end up getting sued or or 177 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:37,080 you know they'll lose their own rights so cease and desists are our tricky 178 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,600 little a tricky little topic but it really depends it's highly case 179 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,880 specific for sure every unique situation depending on the experts and how 180 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,320 dedicated they are that makes sense yeah but for jingles for example you mentioned 181 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,040 those you touched on them if I go out to the the internet find a free royalty 182 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,800 free jingle background music of some sort and I get the rights to use that 183 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:05,160 but in if I'm following the specifications of the copyright rules 184 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:10,800 and I still make something into my own depending on the copyright rules am I 185 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,520 able to claim that as my own intellectual property or is that kind of 186 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:19,080 money there so first of all you have to make sure that you are you have the 187 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,000 specific license that's required in order to make commercial use of that 188 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,980 jingle right so if you have that and for example let's say you included it in a 189 00:16:27,980 --> 00:16:32,760 podcast episode and the podcast episode was very popular and you wanted to go 190 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:37,240 and you wanted to copyright that that podcast episode to make sure that you 191 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,160 know nobody's gonna be stepping on your toes and you have the exclusive right to 192 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,120 do whatever you want with that podcast episode then when you are registering 193 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:50,760 that podcast episode as a copyright you would just exclude the portion of from 194 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,960 your application that includes the jingle because there's a way for you to 195 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,360 say like they ask you like do you own the entire copyright like do you own the 196 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:04,080 music and the this and the that and that and you could say no I am and I'm you 197 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:10,320 know disclaiming this piece of it so but so you would not own the copyright in 198 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,280 that jingle but you would own the copyright in whatever it is that you created 199 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,280 so it's very compartmentalized it can get very correct 200 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,040 yes this is why you lock their note on this stuff it's like a giant puzzle that 201 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,560 you may not really is it really is and it's again like I said it's like super 202 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,000 duper case specific right so like when people are like well can you tell me in 203 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:36,160 general and I'm like no I really I can't it's because there is no general when it 204 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:41,480 comes to this every single case is different so is it like right in the 205 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,480 history books every single case you go in front of a jury or a judge well no we 206 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:52,360 don't have judges and juries really in I mean we do but not not in this sense in 207 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:58,840 this sense it's really just all strategic right it really is what do you 208 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:04,280 want to do like what's the goal right so when at least when I think about it 209 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:09,840 right I don't like to do things piecemeal which a lot of people do they'll 210 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,160 be like all right well I'm just gonna go register a trademark or I'm just gonna 211 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,840 go and I'm gonna copyright this because this was a popular episode and I'm like 212 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,120 no you're just throwing money out the window like what are you trying to do 213 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:22,640 here let's talk about what you're trying to do what you're doing now what you 214 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:28,400 plan on doing in the future and then then I could draw you a picture and you 215 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,640 could see sort of what the best option for you is otherwise you're just 216 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,000 throwing money at it and that's not always necessarily the best case right 217 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,600 like everyone's like I need the trademark and I'm like do you need the 218 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,800 trademark I mean all right if you got a spare I don't know three thousand 219 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,000 dollars laying around sure let's go do it but like you might not need it so 220 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,200 it's a great question to bring up a light bulb went on how far along in the 221 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:58,800 podcast segment do I need to start thinking about this is it from the get-go 222 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,560 I want to be professional or do you just throw throw everything down kind of 223 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,600 wing it and then kind of grow and say okay now I'm getting serious I should 224 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:14,060 check so funny it's a question I get all the time about trademarks and every 225 00:19:14,060 --> 00:19:22,200 vertical never a specific answer but it always starts with strategy right like I 226 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:27,240 couldn't tell you that without knowing a what you're doing and B what you plan on 227 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:33,600 doing for some people it makes sense to write up before you even start anything 228 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,320 like you can preemptively go and you can secure that name with the USP to in the 229 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,120 United States that's really the only way to like call dibs on a trademark 230 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:46,240 because in the United States and I do believe in Canada as well you have to 231 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,560 actually start using the trademark in like a very specific way in order for 232 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,840 the rights to attach and you will still have rights once you start using it in 233 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,880 that way without registering them and they're gonna be very very limited 234 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:05,560 especially in like how you can enforce them so it's honestly just it's not it's 235 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,920 a non-starter for me when somebody says like oh well I mean I have the 236 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,360 trademark rights like yeah you have them but you can't really enforce them and 237 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:14,680 they're not that great so like if you really want them go register them but 238 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:21,600 like it's it's really just again so case specific so like for some people it 239 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,880 makes sense to do it right off the bat for other people it makes sense to start 240 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:32,320 and then like see how it goes and then register it like is it always a good 241 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,520 idea to check and make sure you're not stepping on anybody else's toes before 242 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:43,240 you do it yes it is you can do you know like a very simple Google search you can 243 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:48,040 go even into the trademark database and look it up and see if you see anything 244 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:53,160 similar in there there are ways to do it I show people how to do it all the time 245 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,320 like LinkedIn I have content on Instagram I have content about that it's 246 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,800 not it's difficult but it's not that difficult you could do like a like a 247 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:08,240 very you know basic search at least that right at least that to make sure that 248 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:14,840 you are not getting yourself into any trouble before making sure that like no 249 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,920 one is stepping on your toes put a little effort in maybe just just yeah 250 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,360 and if you pick yourself she's not gonna laugh at you for not putting in the 251 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:29,720 effort maybe um no I don't laugh at anybody because I don't I honestly like 252 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:35,560 all of this is just very unfortunate because people don't know right people 253 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:42,040 don't know people and even people that know I guess I guess if you know and you 254 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,240 ignore it then you had it coming and I'm not gonna feel bad for you but a lot of 255 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,640 people don't know they don't think about it that way they're just like I'm 256 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,720 starting a podcast like who cares like I got a cool name I'm just gonna go and do 257 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:59,640 it right and they don't think about anything right like for example like I 258 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:05,560 always tell people okay like do you have like a podcast guest form that you give 259 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:11,000 to people and they're like well I'm like yeah all right well um do you own the 260 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,040 rights to what people are like I'm on your podcast right now like do you own 261 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:21,120 do you have the my permission to put this on display do you have my permission 262 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:23,960 to use my voice do you have my permission to use my sound clips and the 263 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:29,120 things that I'm saying if that's not in writing today I say yes tomorrow I say 264 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:37,000 no and you have no podcast yeah so so lots of little things because this is 265 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,600 my IP this is my intellectual property my is my speaking what I'm saying right 266 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,960 so I have to be able to you have to have that permission to to use that for me 267 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,360 because tomorrow I can change my mind and then it's on you or tomorrow you 268 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:54,240 decide to go and you decide to you know rearrange my voice in a certain way or 269 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,800 or you know arrange these clips in a certain way and I'm like oh no I didn't 270 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,920 say that I don't like that I'm gonna go sue you now people don't think about 271 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,880 that they're like I'm just gonna do a podcast and I'm like all right cool well you have fun with that 272 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:11,000 I'm that that happens in your experience with clients that people say well I said 273 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,840 yes and now I change my mind I just want to make their day miserable yeah it's 274 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,480 not because they want to miserably change your mind yeah you know they 275 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,760 didn't like the way that you you made them look they didn't like the way that 276 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:27,000 you made them sound or you know maybe sometimes someone can take something 277 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:33,160 totally out of context and and you know yeah in newspapers people will kind of 278 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,800 reporters perhaps will take the the words and kind of jig them just a little 279 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:42,360 bit to get the the clickbait right and that's when it gets a little muddy yeah 280 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:46,000 generally you would hope that people don't change your mind but we're all 281 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:51,920 human beings right exactly exactly and so like important to protect yourself in 282 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,600 that way and to get those those rights from third parties that are that are on 283 00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:00,760 your on your show ahead of time make sure that everybody knows whose IP is is 284 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,720 whose IP right like this one's mine this one's yours this is what I'm allowed to 285 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,920 do with it this is what you're giving me permission to do with it you know if you 286 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,480 change your mind you got to let me know but you got to let me know in advance 287 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,600 or you know I mean whatever those these you know these guests podcast guest 288 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:21,680 forms they're all over the internet and normally I do not condone downloading 289 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:29,800 forms off of the internet but there are some decent ones for anybody that 290 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,960 doesn't want to download off the internet and wants a customized one 291 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:39,480 that's what I do also but generally you can't find them online and you can you 292 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,080 can if you know at least a tiny bit about it which if you listen to this and 293 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:48,640 you should now know you'll be able to sort of tweak it to your for yourself 294 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:54,560 I guess it's better than nothing if you at least have some yes form or it can 295 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,880 get worse if you have something without your expert I mean it could if you 296 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,800 really don't know what you're doing don't do it let's put it that way but if 297 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:09,320 you kind of understand it then it's okay gotcha safe rule thank you yeah is there 298 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:14,440 anything that you get into very specific can we look at trademarking words 299 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,560 specifically like if I try to use a word in my description for the podcast would 300 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:24,760 that be out of context or is there a something I should think about can you 301 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,120 be a little bit more specific because so the trade you're talking about 302 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:35,440 trademarking say a phrase or graphic or email address something that's maybe a 303 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,440 trade secret is there specific words in the English language that we can shy 304 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,840 that we have to shy away from because there's a potential property around 305 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,240 that particular word or is that just free reign because it's in the 306 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:54,160 dictionary no so you know there are certain rules right that we have to 307 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,680 follow like for example if you had you know the Elijah podcast podcast 308 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,960 describes the services that you're trying to register and so that's 309 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:08,640 considered descriptive and so the USPTO would not give you the exclusive rights 310 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,560 to use the word podcast so you would only have the exclusive rights to use 311 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,680 Elijah even though it's you know it's Elijah podcast so you have things like 312 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:28,520 that there are certain limitations on for example last names last names are 313 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,960 very difficult to register because we have this balance where we want to 314 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,480 balance free speech and we want to balance the rights of trademark owners 315 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:43,520 to protect their trademarks and so you know arguably a last name is somebody's 316 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:49,560 name you don't want to prohibit them from using it so last names there was 317 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:56,400 there did used to be a prohibition on improper words and curse words that has 318 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:02,560 been lifted because that was also found to be a violation of First Amendment so 319 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,840 I mean there's there's there's certain things there's certain words that I know 320 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,000 just by virtue of being a trademark attorney because I have experience with 321 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,240 them there are certain brands that like I said are very very vigilant about 322 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,920 enforcing their rights so like Apple being one of them Monster the energy 323 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:26,100 company they are insane trademark bullies anything that has an M or the 324 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:31,360 word monster or like claw marks or like whatever doesn't matter what it is they 325 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:35,760 will come after people for using that so there's a couple of companies like that 326 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,600 that just like don't care like if there's nothing to do with them they're 327 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,520 just gonna you know enforce it anyway just because they have they have money 328 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,760 and they have a team of lawyers and they don't care right or they're very 329 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,480 protective yes yes I mean they don't have they shouldn't be that protective 330 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,280 because it really like some of these things that they're going after have 331 00:27:54,280 --> 00:28:00,000 absolutely like nothing to do with them but they do it anyway so I don't want to 332 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,440 risk putting you out of the job Vicki but could we just go back to a place in 333 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:09,040 time where people are just kumbaya and cool about the stuff or no no because 334 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:15,040 it's business right I can think about it right how much time how much energy how 335 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,920 much resources do we put into building our brands and that's what I tell people 336 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,200 right like some people are like well I don't care well like you should care you 337 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,600 should care think about it right think about it if you had to put a dollar 338 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:37,080 amount on it it's a lot of money so like you should think about protecting that 339 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,760 right because you don't want anyone to just come in and just like decide one 340 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:47,040 day oh I like what he's doing I'm gonna do that too and then your customers 341 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,880 right all this like goodwill that you have invested so much money and like 342 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,160 you know like everybody loves you everybody knows who you are all of a 343 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,680 sudden they're like wait a minute who's that what are they doing is that are you 344 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,720 the same like is that you again right because I've had that all the time I get 345 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,400 that all the time with my with my clients right why do they come to me when 346 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,320 it's too late and the dumpster is on fire and they're like shit well like I 347 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,680 meant to take care of that but I didn't and now like look I got this copycat and 348 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,800 I'm like well guess what now my hands are tied so I don't know what's gonna 349 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:30,400 happen so really important to just you know I get it's an uncomfortable thing 350 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,000 for people to think about right it's uncomfortable because it's not imminent 351 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,880 it could happen it could not happen but like if you're serious about it right 352 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,800 like if you're starting a podcast and your intention is like you know what I'm 353 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,280 gonna sell this thing to Spotify or I'm gonna you know grow a hundred thousand 354 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:51,640 listeners you got to think about these things yeah it's it's not that easy just 355 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,760 to let it go because this is how you make your money this year like it's your 356 00:29:54,760 --> 00:30:00,640 life exactly exactly so don't make money in the world world revolves around that 357 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,240 that's it that's a tough one swallow yeah it is so you know I mean we could be 358 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:10,680 kumbaya but not really I think then you're not making money and that's not 359 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,080 gonna happen now especially in business people are serious yeah definitely so 360 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:21,040 you mentioned it costs a few bucks to get started you have an entry-level course 361 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,240 still going I saw that on the Instagram is that something that you have out 362 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:29,960 still to help people if anybody wants to try to do it themselves then yeah they 363 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:36,800 can I did not hold back with that one it's really just all my secrets all my 364 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:43,680 tips and tricks I wasn't like trying to you know gatekeep it's I'm not gonna lie 365 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,920 it's an insanely difficult process but if your brain works that way that there's 366 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,600 no reason why you couldn't do it yourself just even thinking of getting 367 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,560 down the basics and understand what the heck's going on with that would that 368 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,840 help yeah absolutely I mean it shows you like I said that the trade that the 369 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,680 trademark process itself is done in two steps first where you do the the search 370 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:11,320 and make sure that you actually have the right to use that that name or that logo 371 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,960 or that tagline and then once you've sort of done that analysis and you see 372 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,520 that that is available then you can go and you can you can register it 373 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,720 otherwise registration is just gonna be like a total waste of your time and and 374 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,120 yeah I show people how to do everything where do you live on the internet to 375 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,600 Vicki that would help somebody get started if they wanted to show up and 376 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,840 say hey I need some help where do they go I'm on LinkedIn I am most active on 377 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:45,360 on on LinkedIn now and it's a good one I guess it's slash Vicki B I CKY Smoliar 378 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:51,800 SM OLY AR I'm sure you could you could put that no put in the show notes no 379 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,280 sweat yeah you could put that in the show notes that's really where I am most 380 00:31:55,280 --> 00:32:01,280 active these days I'm also on Instagram and that's at trademark attorney Vicki 381 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:09,160 but I haven't really been too great on there if you like the Instagram archives 382 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,720 from a year ago still yeah well they're not from a year ago they're about from a 383 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:19,480 couple months ago but yes they they go way back so they go way back yeah mostly 384 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,760 it's on it's on unlinked in these days beautiful the last words of wisdom from 385 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:29,240 the the coolest IP lawyer on the planet I'm telling you I'm gonna use that like 386 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:35,600 I'm gonna quote you on that if we can use each other's IP freely is that a 387 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,160 good Tracy's or should we write that down no I think I'm good you won't hear 388 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,760 you won't be hearing from me but just for future you know people do change 389 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:51,200 their minds so so you know words of wisdom take this stuff seriously take 390 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,520 this stuff seriously I know it's it's very difficult and dense topic to wrap 391 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:01,960 your brains around if you go and you follow me on LinkedIn I really do try 392 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:07,400 my best to break it down and make it simple that's really my one goal and in 393 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,520 what I do that's that's why I call myself you know not your grandpa's lawyer 394 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,360 because I understand how difficult and overwhelming it is but it really doesn't 395 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:21,160 have to be but take it seriously because you know everybody thinks that it's not 396 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:27,360 gonna happen to them until it happens to them and once that dumpster is on fire 397 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,680 I'm telling you there's not much that can be done and I like to joke that I 398 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:37,680 have a dumpster fire surcharge it's and you don't want to get there you do some 399 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,260 search the basics and then if you're lost and stuck it's it's wise to take it 400 00:33:42,260 --> 00:33:46,880 seriously hit up Vicki see what's up and then I take it from there but yeah yeah 401 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,360 make sure it's important because it could be the difference of life or 402 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,440 sitting in the dumpster and we don't want yeah yeah 100% it's been great chat 403 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:01,280 thank you so much for joining Vicki and we'll see you soon whether it's you 404 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:08,240 change your mind or if it's my quotes all I ask is pay it forward give somebody 405 00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:17,800 outside awesome I will do that let's start a podcast