Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla and I am joined
here by Pastor Rob. Hi Kyla. Hello and we're
gonna sit down and chat about some of the upcoming
changes that are happening here at Trinity as
we continue to sort of step into our strategic
plan and in particular chatting about what's
happening with the online engagement ministry
here. What's happening with you? What's happening
with me? Hey, what's happening with you? What's
happening with all of us? Yeah, and talk about,
you know, what has been some of the things that
we've been learning, what's, you know, coming
next for us, and yeah, where all of this is going.
So thanks for joining me, Rob. I'm very happy
to be here. And as people probably heard at the
beginning of the service, there is a lot of changes
happening, but this is the best way to talk about
them. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so maybe just to
get us started, you can take us all the way back.
When you or when the church first started thinking
about online engagement at Trinity, what was
the sort of vision and reasoning behind that?
Well, like many churches, I think it was the
pandemic that forced us to kind of start thinking
about things. I arrived right in the middle of
the pandemic, like five and a half years ago,
and at that point, online ministry was just,
that's how you... just survived. If you were
going to stay in touch with your existing church
family or if I was even going to get to know
this new church or if they were going to get
to know me, we had to have some kind of online
presence meeting in person was just not possible.
So we just started there. That's how it kind
of began. But then As you guys will remember,
some people started to trickle back that we were
allowed to start meeting again. And that's when
all of a sudden the thing was hybrid, hybrid
online ministry, which meant that you were now
doing an in -person service, but still many,
many people had not come back yet. So you had
to keep... still doing an online service as well.
So you were reaching one congregation here and
you were reaching another congregation there.
And then I think as restrictions continued to
ease, more and more people started coming back
to church, but it still felt like there was a
good number of folks who said, you know what?
I kind of like this online thing. I like doing...
church in my pajamas on my couch. So I'm going
to kind of stay here." And so we kind of just
kept on offering an online version of our Sunday
morning service and stuff like that because certain
people just seem to prefer it. But as we kept
up with that, we were just kind of grew aware
there's a bit of a gap that's forming, right?
Because the people who were coming in person
were getting They were starting to reconnect
in community and rebuild friends and be able
to enjoy their life groups again and all that
good stuff. But on the other side of the gap,
there were these people online who were enjoying
the service, but were they engaging with us?
That was something that we just started asking
more and more questions. What would it take to
make that group of people who are joining us
online feel more engage, not entertained, but
actually engage. Could we form real community
with people online? And even if you just think
of the word engage, what does it mean to engage
someone? It means that you're like, if we're
having an engaging conversation, then we're like...
we're really like paying attention. We're keeping
like, you know, like, or even like, there's like,
like back and forth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and
or engagement actually sometimes when you're
talking about tools and mechanical things like
engagements, when like two pieces of a two pieces
of a piece of machinery come together and they
start like turning together. And so what we really
wanted to do is our online congregation and our
in -person congregation to kind of really be
to pieces of the life of this church that we're
turning and growing together. So we said, okay,
if we want to really invest in that, we're going
to have to do some experimenting and what would
it look like? And so we actually reached out
to the Diocese of Toronto and we said, hey, we're
curious about these kinds of questions. We want
to experiment in this world of online engagement.
What do you think? And they said, we're curious
about those kinds of things too. And so they
ended up funding us. for a five -year period
of time to invest in some equipment, but mostly
to invest in people to really explore both the
possibilities and the limits of online engagement.
And one of the greatest things that we invested
in was people like you, Kyla. You're a big part
of that. Yeah. So you hired an online engagement
director to sort of oversee some of this work,
to do all of that experimenting. So how have
you seen that role sort of shift over the last,
I think, three or four years now? Yeah. I think
you're right to say that it shifted. And that's
actually very, very intentional because this
was an experiment, after all. So we had to be
paying attention. Is this working? No. Let's
shift. Is that working? Yes. Let's shift toward
it. Let's shift away from this. Let's shift toward
it. It was always about the shift. It was always
about the adjustment. It was always about the
experiment. So that was one of the... So yeah,
we expected to see things change, not just to
get it right and now we're going to do this forever.
Another shift that actually happened was, our
first online engagement director was Elizabeth
Archer, who many of you will remember. Hi, Elizabeth,
if you're watching. Elizabeth and her family
moved to London, and then about two years ago,
you took her role. That was a shift. You brought
different ideas and different vision and just
a different presence to it all. You've both been
wonderful in your own ways. shift that you and
I talked about a lot was almost a shift from
having you think of your job as the online engagement
director, as someone who's just offering online
programs, to seeing your job as a pastor of an
online congregation. So, in the same way that
I'm pastoring the in -person congregation, what
would it be like for you to envision this job?
not just about, let's offer this, let's offer
this, but this is your flock, your online flock.
How can you care for them in a way that's analogous
to how we care for those who are in person? And
part of that thinking was because we realized,
it's one of our learnings, that actually the
people who are watching, the people who are participating,
the people we're trying to reach are actually
maybe not the people we originally thought. It
turned out, and you'll probably say more about
this, that most of the people who are engaging
with us on Sunday mornings are people who...
are shut in to their house, maybe they're elderly,
and it's just, yeah, that's how they stay connected,
because they physically can't come to church
anymore. And that was like, oh... That's our
online congregation, not everybody, but most.
Yeah, yeah, I think it was interesting because,
you know, when you were describing the like pandemic
situation, you said, you know, there were lots
of people who maybe didn't come back to church.
And I think we assumed there are some people
who didn't come back because they didn't want
to, right? Because it was more comfortable for
them to do it from home. But there are all kinds
of people that weren't able to come back into
church because of health reasons, because they
had moved, because, you know, family situations...
whatever it was, right? And so, yeah, just sort
of seeing them as still a really valid part of
our Trinity family. And still people who need
connection and care the same as everybody else.
And I don't think we expected that, because I
think we thought, oh, the people who are going
to be interested in online are the young folks
and the techies. They're the ones we're going
to be reaching. But that's not what we have found
as we have kept watching the metrics. learning
who's out there. Yeah. Yeah. I think, like, when
I think about, you know, when I first started
this role and, like, what were some of the things
we were talking about? Like, I know originally
when you guys had done some visioning on this,
you were like, what if we do, like, a VR church
sort of situation, like virtual reality? Or,
like, even when I started, I was like, OK, what
are the, like, platforms and, like, you know,
Discord or TikTok or whatever it is? Like, where
do people want us to be? And the answer that
we kept getting was Just keep being faithful
in where you're at. Right. And keep showing up
and making those connections deeper. more than
trying to make the connections broader, I think.
Yes, that's true. And that's always one of the
temptations of the online ministry, is there's
always something new and exciting. You can try
this, you can try that. Yeah, I mean, well, you've
already started talking about this, but like,
so you must have seen shifts. You've been at
this two years. What have you seen kind of change?
Yeah, and I think, yeah, for me, it was really
interesting to learn who our online congregation
is and what what their needs are, what they're
looking for. Right. And then to think about,
OK, how what are the ways that we can bring them
into the in -person or the hybrid elements of
our church family? Right. So like doing. hybrid
courses, doing online life groups with folks
who are sometimes always online and sometimes
in person. And doing, you know, like we went
through a time where we were doing a lot of like
scripture readings and things like that with
with online congregants. Right. So just getting
those folks more part of the life of Trinity
in a really sort of regular way, I think was
really an intentional shift. Yeah, and then I
think the the other thing that I would sort of
say was just recognizing, you know, the value
of having a really active social media like that
wasn't something that Trinity Trinity has had
social media for numbers of years. Right. But
to to sort of say, OK, how do we take what's
happening on a Sunday morning and make it, you
know, like taking clips from sermons, taking
clips from podcasts, you know, making posts about
Bible readings and prayers and like getting the
life of the church out there in a way that people
can see really easily and and then seeing the
fruit of that as people who come to church in
person will say, you know, they're they're new
here and they'll say, hey, I saw this thing on
Facebook or hey, I watched this on YouTube and
like it's giving people a taste of what our church
is like. before they even get to walk through
the doors. Yeah. You know what was another shift
to something that we wrestled with the whole
way along is how do you even count? How do you
even know who's out there? Like, so you have
a service, there's this many views, or you put
a TikTok up or whatever, and oh, there's like
2 ,500 or 10 ,000 views. What does that even
mean? Sure. So that was, I felt like a learning
that I had to get my head around is like, It's
it's you don't these numbers they mean something
but maybe they don't mean all that you you sure
I mean, that's just I mean you must have had
some other learnings like you learned along the
way. Yeah, I think Recognizing to going back
to who our online congregation is I think it
was also really interesting for me to learn and
to think about the fact that our on our online
congregation isn't a consistent group of people
there are some people who are always online and
only ever online. Yes. But actually the largest
sort of chunk of people who check in on the app
on a Sunday morning are people who come in person
at least half of the time. OK. Right. So people
who are here when they can be. And then, you
know, they're at the cottage or they're working
or they're. So you're not on either or you're
not either you're part of an online congregation
or you're part of an in person. But one of your
learnings was that actually they're going back
and forth. A lot of people are both. Yeah. Yeah,
and that's really interesting because I think
that changes the job. Like that changes who I
care for. So like when I am going through a list
of being, okay, who checked in this Sunday? Who's
been checking in regularly? One of the criteria
that I use in my head as I'm going through this
is like, okay. Does this person have other connections?
Are they part of a life group? Do they show up
regularly on Sunday morning? Right. Because if
they have some of those other connections, it's
not that I won't check in with them. Right. But
I will prioritize the people that I know are
feeling more isolated. Yes. Right. Yeah. Fair.
Fair. Yeah. I think that there's. Oh shoot, what
was I going to say? Okay, so we've learned that
this congregation is not like here or there.
They're kind of coming back and forth. I mean,
was there any other like kind of key learnings,
big learnings? Yeah, I think the other piece
is trying to figure out how we build a community
online and how you build trust online. No, I
know this was something you talked a lot about
trust. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That it's it's just
so much harder than I kind of imagined, I think.
Right. Right. That that you if people never see
each other face to face, it's not that they can't
build trust. There's lots of people who can.
do that. But I think it's a lot harder. It takes
a lot more time. It takes a lot more intentionality,
right? And so even trying to have a life group
with people who never see each other aside from
this one hour a week on the internet, right?
Yeah, it's not that it's impossible. It's that
it's really challenging. Yeah. I'll share a quote
a little bit later that I always remember you
said, and I think you're right. That is a huge
learning. Remember, this is all about experimenting.
And that was a big learning. Yeah, trust. Can
you build trust online? But maybe in addition
to learnings, if I think back over the last two
years, you must have had some high points. You
must have had some real memorable moments, whether
it was in here or out there. What were some of
the highlights for you? Yeah, I think I was surprised
at how much I enjoyed doing podcasts. Like I
when I sort of came into this job, I was like,
okay, I guess I'll do that But like what I found
about it was that it's a opportunity for me to
get to like hear different people's stories Right,
like everybody who is on the podcast. I know
Better than I would have known any other time
right because I'm also Not the kind of person
who really loves like small talk and like hey,
let's chat about the weather I like want to be
like, okay. No, tell me your life like let's
get into it And so the podcast provides me with
a space where like that's the job Yeah, and so
yeah just getting to to hear people's stories
and and the way seeing people open up and like
be vulnerable and willing to share more of themselves
with our church family. Did that feel like really
natural to you in the end that we're just, I'm
just legitimately interested in hearing more
about this isn't a script or this isn't a...
Yeah, I mean, yeah, usually you come in with
a set of questions and with a, you know, this
is what we're going to talk about. But yeah,
it is often, I really try to make it flow like
a conversation, right? And so just jumping in
and yeah, and I think especially like there's
been a few times where we've done like a panel
sort of series so there's been you know three
or four people who have really continued through
a whole sermon series or through a whole church
season. And those, I think, were also really
interesting. Yeah, I agree. The more voices you
get around the table, the more perspectives,
you get a wild conversation and the time has
gone just like that. Yeah, yeah. So that was
really cool. I think the other piece that's really
meaningful to me was just getting to know some
of our online congregation. And especially whether
it was doing some scripture reading recordings
and getting to visit people in their homes or
getting to go visit folks in the hospital and
that sort of thing, right? Just like, yeah, spending
that time putting face and flesh to like what
I'm doing, right? Cause a lot of times it's,
I'm looking at numbers in a spreadsheet or I'm
looking at these statistics and that information.
And, but to be able to say, no, this really matters
to these people. Yeah. And this is important.
And I hope everyone who's listening caught that.
that one of the most valuable and memorable things
you did as an online engagement director was
seeing people in person. Yeah. Them in their
homes, you know, having face -to -face interactions
with them. I mean, that alone is kind of a telling
insight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And not to say
that, you know, there's also been folks that
I've had Zoom calls with and those have also
been helpful. But I think, yeah, just that that
personal connection with people is is really
valuable, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Rob,
can you explain a little bit of what's coming
next? Okay. So, yes, there are changes coming.
You're probably like, okay, get to the changes.
Well, here's what's happening. As we said at
the beginning, this was kind of always a bit
of an experimental space. We were going to practice
things. We were going to learn things. We were
going to try things. Our goal was to say, can
we bring these online viewers into deeper membership,
deeper engagement, deeper kind of community?
And there's been some successes, but I think
sometimes as we, I mean, here's the hard thing.
Sometimes you have to step back and we have to
kind of be honest at times about what we're seeing
out there. And this is where I remember the quote
that you said to me a few months ago, but you
said something like, for true community to be
formed, what you were learning was that there
had to be trust. And trust was really, really
hard to achieve without some kind of in -person
embodied relationship. So community requires
trust, and your learning was trust requires some
kind of face -to -face interaction with people.
Now that is a big learning for people who are
trying to figure out online engagement, and it's
actually a difficult truth, in some ways a difficult
pill to swallow, that we can actually maybe only
go so far. in reaching you and connecting with
you and drawing you into the life of this church
through this particular medium. This is a great
medium for a lot of things and it's not going
away, but we are going to have to make some changes
to how we do this. Sorry. Yeah, no, just like
on that point that like this medium is really
important. Like I think one of the... biggest
things that we've seen, and like you just chat
with Sally, right? Every newcomer that she talks
to, she'll ask them, you know, how did you hear
about Trinity? And so, so many of them started
as online viewers, right? And then they become
in -person sort of congregants, right? So, so
to say this is really important, but it's not
the be all and end all. That's right. It is,
have you all heard it before? It's like the front
door, right? But it never, our online viewers
never kind of are like fully satisfied I don't
think with just the online portion, it's always
leading them into a community, maybe our community,
maybe in a community. I don't know. But all that
learning has made us to say, OK, we need to be
good stewards of our resources here at Trinity.
And so I want everyone to know Kyla is going
to continue to work. We might have to give you
a different title. I don't know a job, but in
a halftime capacity in this role instead of a
full time capacity. But. it's not going to be
quite the same that way, just because this is
what we're learning. But the second thing that
I want to mention, another reason why we're making
these changes, is because we just did a strategic
planning process as a church, where we discovered
what God's good way was for us here at Trinity.
The whole congregation got a chance to participate.
We launched this strategic plan maybe like five
or six weeks ago. And what we learned was God
is calling us to dig deeper into discipleship,
to strengthen our care ministry here at Trinity,
to invest in the next generation, like youth
and young adults, to build leaders and to extend
our reach by maybe partnering with other churches
in our city and beyond. And so those have now
kind of become some of the guiding pillars in
our vision as a church. And online ministry has
stuff, you know, you could say it's connected
to all of those things. But really, I think what
we're being called to by our congregation and
by God is to invest more heavily in those areas.
And with only so many resources to go around,
we have to also maybe therefore pull back from
other areas. And so, that's another reason why
we decided to pull back a little bit from our
investment in online engagement, is to enable
some of these other things to happen. We are
still going to have a strong social media presence.
We are still going to have a website. We're still
going to live stream the services. We're still
going to have sermon notes and hybrid courses.
We're still going to offer hybrid courses, but
it's especially the Sunday morning stuff that
involves you. I don't know what's going to become
of the podcast yet. We don't have all the answers
yet. So, anywho, it's our strategic plan that's
kind of driven us in this way, partly, too. But
there's actually a third thing that's happened,
and that has nothing to do with me or the church.
It has to do with you, because there's also been
some changes that have happened in your life
or happening in your life. that are perhaps pulling
you into some new directions. And I think that
the congregation would love to hear about that
too. What's going on? Yeah. So yeah, for the
last few months, I guess this year, been sort
of discerning what it would look like for me
to enter into full -time ministry as a priest.
And so actually earlier this spring, I sat down
with some folks from the Diocese of Toronto,
went through some interviews and conversations.
And so I've been accepted as apostate. You passed.
I did. You're accepted. As a postulant in the
Diocese of Toronto. And for folks who don't know
what a postulant is, because it's kind of a funny
word, a postulant is someone who's on track towards
being ordained as a priest. So I do this two
year sort of postulancy process and then one
year of curacy. So when you sort of work underneath
of another priest and then you're finally ordained
as a priest to sort of... go out and serve in
churches. So yeah, spending the next two years,
I need to go back and do a little bit more education
at Wycliffe, doing some retreats and some meetings
with other postulants, other staff from the diocese.
Yeah. And then of course, continuing in this
part -time role here at Trinity as well. And
it's very normal as well. People should know
that you may be asked to do placements at other
churches that would take you away from Trinity
for periods of time as well. And so that's something
coming up. So that's big news. It's exciting
news. I think everybody's pumped about that.
But what I'm wondering is like, what led you
to this? Like, how did you make that decision?
It's a big decision. It's a big change. For sure.
Yeah. I think that like, if I'm really honest
with myself, I think that I've been feeling a
call towards full -time vocational ministry for
a really long time. But I think I've never really
had a clear sense of what that ministry might
look like. Like I've done some work previously
in like international missions and I had thought,
you know, even about doing like local, you know,
like outreach and ministry mission opportunities
and things like that. But I think this opportunity
of working in a local church, so sort of rooting
myself in this context, has helped me to sort
of both get a little bit of a taste of what that's
like to just work in one church with one congregation
with with this wonderful team of staff. And yeah,
to get a little bit of taste of, OK, what's it
like to do pastoral care? What's it like to do
discipleship to do Sunday mornings? Right. And
at the same time, feeling like actually more
of a draw towards some of those things that.
as online engagement director, I don't get to
spend all of my time doing teaching and discipleship.
I don't get to spend all of my time doing pastoral
care. Right. And so feeling like, oh, those are
actually things that I feel called and able to
be equipped to do their life giving and their
and their life giving. Yeah. Yeah. So feeling
like, OK, I want I want to be able to make more
space for that in my life and feeling like, OK,
so. if that's the kind of work that I want to
do, then I guess I'll be a priest. I mean, the
wonderful thing about it is that we don't just
decide, like you said, I guess I'll do this,
right? There's a process and it's a discerning
process and the diocese takes you through that
and the bishop walks you through that. And so
God can work through all of that to either affirm
that call or to say, hey, this isn't the right
place, not the right time. But it's really encouraging
that that not only have you felt it here, but
it's been affirmed by the wider church that,
no, we see this. We see this in you, Kyla. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's exciting. I don't
really know, you know, what the next two or three
or four or more years look like for sure. But
I think that, yeah, I'm excited to step into
more of that sort of church leadership and ministry
and see where God takes us. It's amazing. Yeah.
So again, Kyla is still going to be part of the
Trinity team here in a reduced capacity. But
that might, but this might, and I don't know
the future of the podcast, but this might be
your, this is probably your last podcast. I'm
so glad I got to be your guest on your last podcast.
And maybe I'll just shut my big mouth. You sign
up for what could be the last time. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, thank you so much, Rob, for sharing and
for being part of this whole journey with me.
And thank you for tuning in to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. If you have been part of our
online congregation, I just want to say thank
you. Thank you for tuning in so faithfully. Thank
you for all of the ways that you have challenged
and encouraged me and helped me grow through
this season. And if you're just tuning in for
first time that's okay too. We're glad to have
you around and maybe you can go back and watch
some of those other podcasts and yeah we would
love to continue to hear from you and connect
with you as Rob said. Our online presence is
not going anywhere and so we would love to have
you to continue journeying with us here at Trinity.