Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla and I am so
glad to be joined here by two folks who are part
of our Trinity family and we're going to be talking
about Father's Day together and specifically
about what it's like being a dad or being grandfather
and yeah how all of those bits of life connect
to our faith. So thank you so much for joining
me folks. You're welcome. Yeah, maybe we'll just
start with some introductions. You can say your
name and a little bit about your family. We'll
start over here. Okay. Well, my name is Ken and
I'm a retired police officer. I've been married
now for quite some time since 1978. I have two
wonderful children. I have four fantastic grandchildren
and I even had an opportunity to act as a foster
parent for some time. Okay, very cool. And over
here. Okay, I'm Bruce and I worked in the justice
system and I tried to retire and one day I will
be successful at it. Today is not that day? Today
is not that day and I also have two children.
I only have two grandchildren so far but we have,
oh can I say this? Yeah, I'm gonna say it anyways.
We have one on the way. Okay. I think everybody
knows and I think that's it. Okay. Great. Thank
you so much. So maybe we'll start by thinking
about, you know, what is one of the things that
surprised you the most or that was sort of unexpected
for you when you became a father or then later
when you became a grandfather? Yeah. What would
you say, Ken? For me, I would think it would
be just how wonderful each stage was as the children
and the grandchildren grow. And I didn't really
expect that. I certainly appreciated every phase.
And there's points when the children, especially
when they're little and they're toddlers and
they're so cute and you're thinking, I'd like
them not to grow to this. But then the next phase
comes along the next stage of development. And
there's just so much more you can do with them,
so much more you can interact. So I really didn't
anticipate that. But each each stage has a wonderful
gift and promise. And later on challenges. Sure.
That's totally fair. Yeah. Yeah. What about for
you, Bruce? For me, I never expected to be able
to love another human being so instantaneously
as when our children were born. It floored me
just how my heart was bursting with love for
this child who I met like a minute before. Sure.
And same with my grandchildren. It was like,
I remember, like, I don't take a good picture.
And I remember one of the best pictures ever
taken of me was the first time I held my granddaughter.
And you could just see how much I loved Evelyn
right from the start. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I'm going to just add on to what we said
that the very first time Melissa came home, my
oldest, and she was swaddled. And I was lying
on the couch and Pearl put her on my chest. Yeah.
And just the incredible emotional feeling. Sure.
This child is sleeping and totally unexpected.
Didn't expect to experience that at all. But
it was just a wonderful, wonderful experience.
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's something
that's like. Unique or at least different for
dads than for moms, right? Because mom has all
of this time You know if it's a biological child
like carrying this child like bonding with this
kid as they're sort of growing in them But then
yeah dads don't get quite that same thing, but
it's yeah to hear that like instant connection
Hold that kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah for sure
So what's something that you have learned as
a dad? Something that, you know, maybe before
you were like, oh, I don't know, or like you
just felt like this was sort of foreign. But
now you're like, ah, this is like what I've learned
as a as a dad. What would you sort of say? Want
to start us off? Yeah, I think for me, I learned
that you. Babies are born babies because you're
not ready for them to be toddlers and you're
not ready for them to be. you know teenagers
and and you are teaching your children as much
as you can but you're also learning sure how
to be a dad as it goes along sure um and about
being a grandfather i learned that there's a
reason you have children when you're young because
we spend the day with our grandchildren and like
laura and i come home and we are dead to the
world. Sure. And it's like, how do they do this
day in and day out? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We used
to do it day in and day out when we were young.
Sure. Not anymore. So we do it once a week. Right.
Yeah. Yeah. So those bits sort of go really well
with what Ken was saying earlier about the different
stages. Right. Like in each stage of your life,
in each stage of the kid's life, you're like.
ready for the next thing, even if it doesn't
feel like it yet. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And
like if I had to deal with some of the issues
we dealt with when they were teenagers, when
they were just born. Yeah. I would have messed
up terribly. Sure. But you sort of like you you
grow with them and you learn with them. And by
the time they're teenagers, you're ready for
it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say?
I think that. Maybe the most important lesson
I might have learned is the balance between authority
and influence. You want to guide your children
to grow and to be joyful, responsible adults.
And to do that at first when they're very young,
of course, you've got authority. But that has
to change. And you have to maintain... you have
to maintain an attitude that's going to develop
your ability to influence your child. So you've
got to develop, as time goes on, a relationship
that involves them understanding that you are
truly interested in their welfare. And that comes,
that's the influence portion. And other influences
are going to come into their lives that you can't
control. And so that I think it's really important
that you maintain as a father that that thought
that I have a certain level of authority, but
that has to drop and the level of influence I
have has to increase so that I can maintain that
proper relationship and hope to have good guidance.
I think one of the most important lessons from
the Bible is seeing how Jesus talks about. hypocrites.
And I think that how damaging if I behave hypocritical
behavior that can be to those relationships and
thus decrease the trust and the influence that
I can have in helping my children grow and my
grandchildren as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
And do you feel like like over time that that
those levels like change, like maybe when they're
young, it's more of an authority and less of
an influence. And then it like shifts over time
or does it? Absolutely. And it's and it's a constant
change. Sure. And certainly for me, it's not
perhaps as challenging. I don't think is it's
going to be for for current parents and certainly
for my children as parents, because. We didn't
have social media to influence the children the
same way. I mean, the internet was available,
but it wasn't available to the same extent. There
wasn't so much influence. So in order to maintain
my influence, I think that it's something that
is constantly under adjustment, but it's so important
to maintain that trust and to be just basically
forthright on us with your children. Avoid manipulation
whenever possible because people will detect
it. Yeah, and it's very damaging to relationships.
Yeah. Yeah for sure for sure. Yeah So, what would
you say is the best part about being a father
and or the best part about being a grandfather?
Yeah, you want to start us off there Bruce? Best
thing. Yeah, I'm going to start with grandfather.
Sure. Best part about being grandfather is that
you get to be with your grandkids. You get to
play with them. You get to spoil them. And then
when there's a dirty diaper, you get to pass
them off. Yes. Or if they're cranky or if they're
cranky, you get to pass them off. Sure. And you
don't have to worry about disciplining them.
That's not your job anymore. Yep. I think the
best part about being a parent, kind of building
on what Ken said with respect to the authority
influence is Transitioning making that transition
sure because we were exactly the same in that
like we were much stricter with our kids When
they were younger than when they were older But
I think we didn't have to be as strict with them
when they were older because they had learned
sure and making that transition and then coming
out at the end and being friends with your kids.
I think that's the ultimate is by the time they
are grown and married, you want to be friends
with them. Sure. So you want to go to the baseball
game with them. You want to be able to spend
time with them and just enjoy their company.
Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good
sort of for all of the parents right now who
feel really in the trenches of it. Yeah. Yeah.
It's a good thing to look forward to. There's
light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. Yeah, for
sure. For sure. What about for you, Ken? Favorite
parts? I'm going to have to say almost ditto.
It's a wonderful thing to enjoy the grandchildren.
For example, yesterday we had all four grandchildren
over and mom and dad's got their date night.
Sure. But but. Having having them together watching
how they play together sure stuff. It is is a
delight and The thing is that because I am retired
and my wife was retired then also we Don't have
to rush the way we did with their children sure
so it's not When they're there, I it's not like
okay. I just finished work. I've got a rush get
dinner on the table I've got to do all these
things so yeah, so the The ability to schedule
yourself and to really enjoy quality time with
the grandchildren is there. Having said that,
I also, though, I think as much as I loved the
children when they were young, I still have a
very wonderful relationship with my children.
And we do spend time together. We go to activities
together. We spend vacations together. And even
my daughter even dropped in just to give me a
hug one day. It's just. There is no specific
special time, but it's just how healthy that
relationship is. It's wonderful. Yeah, yeah.
No, that's that's really sort of encouraging
to hear. OK, so then on the flip side of it,
what are some of the challenges that you've experienced
as parents and and what are some of the ways
that you think those challenges have helped to
shape your life or or your faith? Well, I'm going
to do. go away from my children to the person
we were trying to foster. Sure. And that person
had come from his relationship with his mother
was very broken. Sure. It was very toxic. And
and to see I think it's important lesson to learn
that undoing damage takes a lot more effort than
preventing it in the first place. Sure. And so
that there was not. In that particular relationship,
there was not trust. There was definitely a lot
of manipulation going on. And the relationship
was, whenever a conflict would come up, the conflict
resolution was establishing blame. It was not
about true resolution. And so I think that having
seen that and experienced that, it's really important
to... to prevention is so much easier than cure.
Sure. And so to deal with the very toxic relationship
where there isn't layers of trust, there isn't
levels of seeking. How do we fix this? Yeah.
It's how do we establish blame? That's really,
really, really difficult to overcome. And I sure.
And I cannot say that it's been successful to
overcome in that relationship at all. Sure. Which
is very unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's
really hard. Right. Because like. Yeah, especially
when I think you're caring for someone that like
you don't have that history with right that it's
really hard to sort of step in and be Be the
parent be the person that like can can really
rebuild what is already broken. Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately
I think it's also important to mention that if
you have those damage relationships the child
will extend those damaged relationships to other
people. Sure. And so the young man in this case
was involved in counseling. And when he was very
upset at his mother, that came out of the counselor.
Sure. And so that kind of thing was very damaging,
of course, for the relationship. How can the
counselor help him heal if what he's doing is
projecting his frustration and his anger at the
counselor? Again, I just can't stress how important
prevention is. Take the time. Make sure things
don't go sideways because once they've gone sideways,
it's a lot more effort to fix it. Sure, sure.
Yeah. And how would you say that like that experience
has like shaped your own life and faith in some
way? Well, I think it's certainly done a huge
amount for me to. To think about to think about
all my relationships not just those ones but
to think about all my relationships the importance
of Honesty the importance of integrity the importance
of vulnerability and being consistent and not
being hypocritical. Yeah To see those things
and of course, that's also my police experience
because I had to intervene in some very violent
very dysfunctional family situations sure and
so So there's just all of those factors that
that come in that that really I think all of
the ways that we're being taught in the Bible
how to have a good relationship Those things
they're timeless and they're absolutely true
and they are going to result in healthy relationships.
Okay. Yeah now Having said that I mean we don't
have to stick strictly to the law like in Deuteronomy
Which goes a little overboard in the disciplining,
but yeah, I think that just Generally speaking,
as we're looking at those relationships, the
importance of honesty, integrity, consistency
can't be overstated. Yeah, leading with those
values first and being like, OK, this is who
I am. This is how I want to be. And yeah, exactly.
Thank you for finishing. Yeah, for sure. What
about for you, Bruce? What would you say some
of the challenging moments have been? I think
for me, the biggest challenge is when for children
when your child is going through a struggle sure
and You want to do everything you can to fix
it. Yep, but you can't and That's part of their
growing up and that's part of their learning.
Yeah, and you can be there and you can support
them But you can't fix it. Yeah, and that's a
that's a real challenge. Mm -hmm And from a grandparent,
it's just learning that Your child is the parent,
so when you try to give your one -year -old grandson
ice cream and his mother says no, you have to
pay attention. Yes. That's an interesting dynamic
when the child becomes the parent. You just have
to respect boundaries. Sure. Yeah. I remember
when my aunt became a grandmother. I remember
her saying at one point she was like, yeah, our
kids have kids. And so now we've learned all
of the things that we apparently did wrong as
parents. Yeah, exactly. Right. But just different
moments, different times. Yeah. And it's interesting
because like parenting now is very different.
Sure. It's a whole different world. It's a different
way. And right from the very beginning. Yeah.
Like, what the heck is sleep training? You know,
we just put our kids to bed. Sure. But now they
now they're sleep training. And that's a that's
that's a new challenge because we have to understand
how things are done now. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And how would you say some of those challenges
have like shaped your life and faith? I threw
it all. I don't understand how. people who do
not have faith are able to cope with the challenges.
Sure. I think that's where there is so much family
dysfunction because we have such a phenomenal
example of what it means to be a father from
our faith in God. And I think we just, if you
don't have that, It must be it must be a real
challenge. And I have I just I'm so glad that
I have it. Sure. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And
I think that it goes back to sort of what what
you were saying there about, you know, that we
have this example, we have our faith that grounds
us and what you were saying, Ken, you know, about
like all of these values in scripture that like
faith that like shape us and help us to sort
of create functional families. And obviously,
that doesn't mean that it works all of the time.
There are lots of families of faith that are
also dysfunctional in different ways. Right.
But it gives us something to ground us. It gives
us something to to go back to, I think. Yeah.
And at least at least a model of what this should
look like. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
So how has being a dad influenced your faith
or changed sort of your understanding of of God?
Do you want to start us off again, Ken? I'm going
to defer to Bruce just for a minute, just as
I gather my thoughts. Sure, yeah, yeah. For sure.
And I was going to defer to Ken if you asked
me. OK. OK, so I'll be on the hot seat. Yeah,
are there any? Yeah. You know, kids disappoint
you. Yep. And when our kids disappoint us, we
don't always react really well. Sure. But we
have to realize that we disappoint God. Well,
I was speaking personally, probably on a daily
basis. Sure. And yet God has this infinite forgiveness
and His infinite grace that He bestows on us.
Being a parent and feeling that disappointment
sometimes, it just kind of like instills how
great a gift God's grace and forgiveness is.
Sure. I don't think I have anything else to say.
No, no, no. Yeah, I think that's really profound,
right? So you sort of said before, you know,
we have this example of God as Father, God as
parent that we sort of emulate, but then that
also means that like, yeah, that God experiences,
we experience the thing God, God experiences
and God's response to that, obviously, because
God is God, is so much greater and more perfect
and whole and loving. But it's yeah, it just
puts our responses sort of into perspective.
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think that if if we could
all respond the way God responds to these things.
Wow, yeah, it'd be amazing to see what the world
would be like. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah for sure for
sure. Yeah Thanks for giving me a minute there
Bruce, I think that One of the things that we
are built by God to want a relationship with
God and if we don't have that then we have unrealistic
expectations Most likely of the people closest
to us. Sure. I have heard how many times going
to to weddings about how my spouse is supposed
to complete me. Sure. Totally unrealistic expectation
in my personal view. And I certainly would suggest
in my professional career and dealing with some
very disturbing situations that people have had
very unrealistic expectations of spouses and
children or parents. And and I will actually
say that I heard a mother once say that a child
should worship me only next to Jesus. I don't
think that's a healthy relationship. I don't
think that we can have. I think that we're destined
to have or more likely to have unhealthy relationships
when we don't have realistic expectations. And
so if we expect other people to fulfill that
longing that we have for relationship with with
Jesus, we are going to put. far too many demands
on other people and expect them to fulfill us.
Or we're going to then, in that we're going to
expect our careers perhaps. Or we're going to
expect something else to give us that fulfillment
that we know we're missing, that relationship
that we know should be there. And so then we
start expecting that if I dedicate myself far
too much to my career. then of course that damages
the family. If I dedicate myself far too much
to accumulating wealth, that's going to damage
my important relationships. So I'm not sure if
that answers the question, but I think it's an
important point to bring out. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, for sure. And I think that sometimes. Yeah,
so if we if we think of it as like we all have
this like longing inside of us for something
more for relationship. And as Christians, we
know that that's a longing for God. Right. But
I think sometimes people will be like, oh, if
I become a parent, that will fulfill that longing.
Or sometimes kids are like, oh, no, my parent
is supposed to fulfill that longing. Right. And
yeah, I think you're right. They're like, if
we put too much pressure on on one particular
relationship, it it leads to that disappointment.
Um, yeah, and so needing to sort of go back to
God and be like, this is, this is really where,
where we get that, that all that we need. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. Um, okay. So as you think about,
um, you know, your experience, your life as,
as dads, as, as grandfathers, um, what is one
piece of advice that you might need to have to
offer, uh, to other dads or to other grand dads?
I'm gonna start us off again, Bruce. Sure. Don't
be afraid to allow your children to experience
disappointment at a young age. Okay. I think
Mick Jagger said it best, you can't always get
what you want. Sure. And that's something that
I think is really important. We live in a very
commercial society. Yep. If kids don't learn
that they don't always get what they want, I
think that in the years in the future, that can
cause them problems that are unforeseen. And
so, yeah, disappointment is not a bad thing at
a young age. In fact, I think it's good for children
to learn disappointment. Sure. That's one thing
and I guess my the biggest thing is Your kids
are gonna disappoint you. Yep Take a beat count
to ten. Yeah Don't overreact sure Because an
overreaction is probably going to be much worse
than not reacting sure Yeah, makes sense. Yeah.
Yeah. I think that like the first bit that you
were saying there about, you know, allowing kids
to experience disappointment, I think is so important,
but like so counter instinctual, I think. Yeah.
Right. Absolutely. Because you start off by saying,
I looked at this kid and I love them. Yeah, absolutely.
My whole being. Right. So why would I want them
to be sad? You want your kids to be happy all
the time. Yeah. But I think that when they grow
up, that's an unrealistic. Sure. You know, God
never promised us a rose garden. There's going
to be challenges. There's going to be things
that go wrong. Yeah. And if they learn from a
young age that things don't always go their way.
Right. I think that's a very valuable lesson
to learn. Sure. And not even just like that things
don't always go their way, but like then how
to cope with that. Exactly. Right. It's not just
learning that sometimes life sucks because we're
all just going to learn that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
But learning, OK, when things fall apart, how
do I build resilience? How do I respond? How
do I care for myself and others in that space?
Yeah. And resilience. Kids are resilient. We
get much less resilient as we get older. Sure.
So at a young age, that resilience is almost
built into them and it's easy to teach them that.
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say, Ken?
Well, first of all, I agree totally with what
Ruth just said. And that when I was actually
involved as an umpire. Yeah in in t ball. Yes,
um one coach got really upset with me when when
a child got out at second Sure, and I said, I
don't care if you leave them in I don't care
if you want them if you want them to keep running
the bases I don't care. It's it's not important,
but I think um children need to learn In those
kind of situations that it is possible to fail
sure and that there is times when things aren't
going to go exactly right and and to learn in
that situation rather than perhaps later in life
when the first time you're the first time that
you're going to fail is not getting the job that
you interviewed for. That's going to be devastating.
Sure. And so I totally agree with what you said,
but also on another point, I think I can't possibly
underestimate what's the influence that the Internet
is providing on children. Sure. And I think I
probably didn't keep myself as aware as I should
have. in regards to my children so their exposure
what they could find on the internet and how
to get around things and knowing that and also
I participated a bit in as a facilitator in a
parenting teens and tweens course at a previous
church and some of the horror stories that I
heard about what was happening sure from teachers
that were there present what was happening in
the schoolyard when parents gave their child
a phone and then without any limits on it sure
and so what they were able to to bring up on
their phone so there is we can't be blind to
that and I could be to some extent because of
the time that I was a parent sure but that can't
happen anymore people and so I really do support
any legislation that's coming up to to somewhat
restrict what's available but I I really think
is an important lesson to other parents you've
got Gotta keep an eye on what's happening and
control it and be diligent about it. Sure. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think an important sort of
reminder for all of us to be like praying for
and supporting parents because there are all
of these things that are coming up that like,
yeah, just a whole new world, a whole new sort
of set of issues to sort of think through. It's
complicated. It sure is. Do we have time for
me to add one more thing? Of course. Yeah. find
somebody who can have those conversations with
your kids that you may be not able to. Shocker,
there are conversations that parents shouldn't
have with their kids. Sure, or that the kids
will just never want to have with their parents.
Or the kids will never want to have with their
parents. And I was one of those people who, because
I was a volunteer youth leader, parents would
come to me and they'd say, what can we do about
this? And I'd say, leave it with me. And because
of my relationship, I was able to have those
conversations with the kids that the parents
couldn't. And I think parents need to have those
resources available to them. And that probably
goes to the last question too. How can you help
a dad? It's like... Yeah, be that resource to
be the person who can have those conversations
with the child or with the children or the youth
or what have you. Yeah. Because really, kids
will listen to somebody who isn't their parent
much more than they will listen to their parent.
Yep, for sure. For sure, for sure, yeah. Yeah,
so then, yeah, so this being a support, being
the sort of secondary person who supports people's
kids, praying for them. What are some other things
that people can do to sort of help support and
care for dads in the world today? Okay, I'm gonna
go to the granddad. Yeah, sure. And to some extent,
grandmoms. Sure. It's difficult sometimes for
parents. I've seen myself do it. I've seen my
children do it in that we can't Once you're a
parent, you can't turn it off. Yeah, and so you
can't stop the caring and so It's going to come
out maybe at inappropriate times that I'm trying
to influence my child or or or help them sure
and but it's coming from an area of That's what
I've been doing for 30, 40, 50 years, whatever
the case may be. And it just can't, I just can't
turn it off. I can't, I'm not going to turn off
the carrying. I'm not going to turn off the loading.
I'm not going to turn off. I just, it's not built
in me to throw that switch. And so there are
good ways to handle it, but understand that that's
going to happen with just about every parent
and grandparent. It's going to happen. Be prepared
for it. Extending some patience and grace. Yeah,
it's just impossible to turn off. So there are
some things that we're maybe going to offer advice
on that we shouldn't. Sure. But we can't help
it. Sure. So be patient with us and show us some
grace. Yeah. Anything else you would add, Bruce?
Yeah, no, I think praying for parents. Yeah.
And praying for the relationship of the parents.
Being a parent is not the easiest thing and it's
a challenge and it can cause stress. Sure. And
so pray for the parents, pray for the children,
pray for the parents' relationship. Yeah. I think
that those are all things that are desperately
needed. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I just thought
of one other thing that might be appropriate
for some people is accountability partners. Sure.
There are things that you can't necessarily discuss
with your spouse or with your children about
how you're parenting, but you can certainly find
somebody of your faith that that you can trust,
that you can rely on, and it's going to give
you honest feedback. Yeah. And so if I'm trying
to improve how I'm doing at something, perhaps
I've been too short tempered with a child or
something like that. find somebody that you can
trust and speak to and hold you accountable and
in a very loving but honest way. Sure. And I
think that that's an important lesson that if
that resource is available, take advantage of
it. Sure. And offer yourself up that you could
be a you could be that that partner for somebody
else. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. No. Thank you so much,
guys. You're very welcome. I think this has been
a really helpful conversation. Yeah, just get
that insight into, you know, what is life like
for dads and granddads and what are some of the
challenges that you're facing, but also some
of the joys that come with just being part of
a family. And thank you for tuning in to this
week's episode of Trinity Talks. Whether you
are a granddad, dad, or a parent of another kind
or not a parent at all, I pray that you have
been encouraged in this conversation. and that
you are able to find ways to care for, to pray
for, to encourage and support kids and parents
that are in your life. And we'll see you again
next week.