Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm really
excited because I have three very special guests
with me today who also all have a connection
to World Vision Canada. And actually, Trinity
Church has been working with World Vision Canada
in lots of different ways since about the 1980s.
And in that time, especially in the last few
years, we've had this really special connection
with Honduras. and with the community of Nueva
Frontera, where Trinity has been part of the
Chosen program. And so many families and children
have been sponsored and been impacted by that
work. But yeah, we also have these three wonderful
folks and a very special sort of personal connection
to Trinity as both Dave Toyson and Michael Messenger
call Trinity their church home. So I'm so excited
to be joined by you folks and by Allison, the
current president and CEO of World Vision Canada.
So thank you so much for joining me, folks. Great
to be here. Thanks for having us. Yeah, so maybe.
We'll just do some really brief introductions.
First, you can just say your name, sort of what
your experience with World Vision has been. So
maybe we'll start here. Yeah, thanks. I'm Michael
Messinger, and my wife Yvonne and I call Trinity
home. So we have been here for a number of years,
and we live in Oakville. Okay. at World Vision
in one role or another for 30 years, including
most recently a CEO about a year ago. So I'm
about to pass it over to Allison as my successor.
Awesome. Yeah. Amazing. Well, I'm Allison Alley.
It's a joy to be with you today. My husband,
Tommy, and I live in St. Catharines, Ontario
with our two teenage daughters. And God called
me to serve as the CEO of World Vision Canada
just over a year ago. So it's been the privilege
of my life to follow after Michael. And maybe
I won't say your name. You can bring your own
introduction. So thanks for having me. Yeah,
no, thank you for being here. Yeah, go ahead,
Dave. Well, let's see. I started. With World
Vision in the US in 1973. Okay. And that's all
I've done my whole life. Okay. Wow. I've been
in Australia, US, and then here in Canada. And
then here in Canada. Okay. And what years were
you CEO in Canada? Let's see. I started in 1980.
81, I think. Okay. Something like that. Something
like that. And CEO in the 90s. CEO through the
90s. Okay. Awesome. Cool. Yeah. So I think it's
really cool to have all of this sort of history
building on each other. This is the first time,
by the way, we're having a conversation together.
Yeah. Very cool. Thanks for bringing us together.
I mean, we've talked together. Sure. Yeah, that's
awesome. Yeah. So maybe, Allison, as I sort of
said, Trinity's really had this partnership with
Honduras, with Nueva Frontera specifically. Can
you just tell us, you know, from from your sort
of point of view, like what has been the impact
of that partnership? You know, it's interesting.
I think of the video that we saw this morning
or you'll see next if you haven't tuned in with
Pastor Rob and Tony, right, who works for World
Vision Honduras and the depth of relationship
and friendship and shared experience that was
just representative of what happens when you
bring two communities together who are praying
for one another and encouraging one another and,
you know, playing one. significant part in fueling
the vision that this community has right for
their own children and their own families. And
so the impact, I would say, has been far reaching.
In ways that are beyond our imagine. Sure. And
will be enduring far beyond, you know, the partnership
as we just heard or you'll hear later, right?
Comes to a close. So it's the relationship. It's
the emotional impact of knowing that people care
for you. They're praying for you. They're cheering
you on. And practically on the ground, the life
-saving and life -transforming impact is remarkable.
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think like both of those
pieces are really sort of important, right? That
it's, it is. a very practical partnership, but
it is that emotional, spiritual, relational partnership
too, I think is what makes it so powerful. Yeah.
So yeah, you said you're sitting down here with
these two leaders who've been sort of part of
World Vision in the past and yeah, leading through
a lot of changes and now you coming into this
role. What would you say are some of the biggest
challenges for you in sort of leading an organization
like World Vision today? you often preach about
something that you need, right? And so certainly
today when I talked about just like everything
happening everywhere all the time and the sense
of overwhelm, and yet what does God call us to,
right? The one, the next step. So for me, really
practically in any given moment, there is a lot
to consider, a lot to do. There's urgency, lots
of different stakeholders. We work in over a
hundred countries, right? And yet, you know,
my role and the challenges is to be present in
the one moment, to be present in the one meeting,
right? To be here and nowhere else right now.
And to not just be used by God, but to be attentive
to what He would have for me in those everyday
moments. So it sounds maybe... high level, but
it really is one of the more challenging things
and where God has been meeting me in this season.
Yeah, for sure. Right. Cause there's so many
priorities. Yeah. So are there ways that you
think like you've been able to sort of help focus
yourself in that? Yeah. You know, one of the
practices that I started, so I have a, what's
called a personal rule of life, which is basically
like pre -deciding how you want to spend your
time to ensure that you're rooted in the Lord
and your relationships are prioritized and you
know, you're staying whole and well as a whole
human being. And practically to your question,
I practice silence in the morning. I get up real
early. I light a candle and I sit and work to
empty out my mind and the stress of what may
come and give it to the Lord and be open to what
he may receive. And I find it, it's one small
practice that just helps me be present and to
empty of my worry. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think
that's super helpful to just have that moment
of grounding, that moment of letting go because
yeah, there's so many things that are flying
at you. you. I think all of us, but like, especially
as CEO of a organization that's so large, that's
dealing with so much crisis, I think most of
the time. Yeah. Kali, you'll probably hear from
each of us that no matter what time we served,
the needs of the world are always greater than
the resources available to them. And so that
always adds an urgency and a stress to no matter
what season we're in. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Yeah. And so, Dave, when you were leading in
World Vision, you led through this sort of really
significant period of growth. And so, yeah, can
you just talk to us about like what was that
time like? What was it like to sort of build
that team and that supporter base as you were
serving as CEO? Well, one of the challenges I
had when I first came, I'd been in Australia
and then worked in U .S. as well. And so when
I came here and we were struggling a bit in terms
of our fundraising, and it was a sensitive situation.
My team around me, especially actually doing
film and so forth, they liked documentaries.
Okay. And and that was kind of the high bell.
Sure. So I here am coming from Australia and
the US where we had television programs. OK.
And we had both discovered that. documentaries
don't raise money. Okay, sure. Right? And so
my first kind of negative thing I had to deal
with, the guys were okay, but a couple of them
actually left. Sure. And it also meant we hired
the U .S. organization to help us, and that wasn't
very popular at the beginning, at the time. But
the numbers and everything just took off. And
so that was probably my biggest challenge, I
think, at the beginning. Because I didn't want
to make it bad or whatever. And I think what
helped is it was so dramatic in terms of our
increasing the money that we were raising. Sure.
So I think that was my biggest. Australia helped
me. Because it's kind of in between the U .S.
and here. So I did, you know, typically Americans
are kind of goofy sometimes. And so I probably
was, too. I don't know. But it helped me to not
be that way. Sure. So that was one of the really
important things that was there. And then the
other thing that I think, as I think back, we
just had great staff. I think of Bradlock, Names,
people. I think of Linda Tripp. She ran our government
relations. And we raised a lot of money. And
we had the other thing that was important. We
had an older gentleman. He was a retired Presbyterian
minister. Help me, Michael. Ken McMillan. Ken
McMillan. And he would wander around, you know,
and he had great... He was our minister at large.
Minister at large. Great title. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, and that was important. And then the other
person that I think was great was Don Pusterski.
He was an interesting character. He had been
part of InterVarsity. That was his background.
But he had a unique talent. Sure. He came up
with his own research. And he did a research
on young people, what their attitudes were. And
he would do that every year or two. And everybody
read it. I mean, the teachers, professors, whatever.
And he had a really great handle on what Christianity
was and what we needed to do. Sure. And his sort
of frame was to... Let me just give you you practice
the Great Commission. Yeah. And then you practice
the I've written this down because my memory
is not so hot. That's OK. Yeah. So and he had
these three pieces that that the great requirement,
the great requirement, the great command, the
Great Commission. And what's the other one? Hang
on. The Great Commandment. Great Commandment.
OK. That covers the whole thing. Okay. This sounds
pretty good. And the great requirement, by the
way, I'm stealing from his nose, is Micah 6 .8,
right? What does the Lord require of you? To
act justly, to love mercy, and to walk up to
the Lord. Right, right, right. Okay. And to love
your neighbor as yourself. Yeah. Okay. And his
book doing this? Yep. You can only get it now
for $150. Okay. Pocket change, really. But the
message is still cheap. Yeah. But meaningful.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, as you sort of described,
you know, making some hard choices, but then
seeing the fruit of that. Yeah. Right? And I
think, as you sort of described, surrounding
yourself with really good people. Absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah. And our... I'm thinking of our finance
leader. We've always had great responsibility
there. That was really important. And never had
any... We didn't really have any troubles with
that. Sure. That's awesome. Yeah. I'm sure there
were some smaller things, but overall it was
really, really strong. Yeah. So that was another
part of the organization that was really important.
Sure. For sure. Yeah. I know you also sort of
have a more personal connection with World Vision
as well, sort of through your late daughter,
Jocelyn. So maybe do you want to tell us a little
bit about your family and how all of those pieces
overlap? Yeah. No. So we had our son and our
daughter. Son is older. And he when we came here,
he decided he wanted to go not do his university
here, but to do it in the United States. OK.
I had two sisters and their husbands in Seattle
area. So that's where he went. And so he got
his degree there. And then. He wanted to work
at World Vision. So he's now been working at
World Vision for the last decade. Okay. And he
leads the work they do with their major donors.
Okay. And pastors. And he does a major event
of each of that. And they raise billions of dollars.
Sure. It's unbelievable. But he's a very strong
Christian. He lost his wife to cancer as we lost
our daughter to his sister. But he's remarried
now. They've got five kids. Okay, yeah, yeah.
And they're doing really well. And let's see,
the oldest daughter is getting married this summer.
Okay, awesome. So that's another part that was
really, really interesting for us. Sure, sure.
And the hardest thing for me was I needed to
leave World Vision. but losing our daughter -in
-law was very difficult. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for
sure, for sure, yeah. Yeah, so you led World
Vision for a while, and then, Michael, you led
World Vision Canada for a little bit. And, yeah,
lots of ups and downs and through a pandemic
and all of these sorts of things. Yeah, so maybe
can you tell us a little bit about, you know,
what were some of the changes and what were some
of the stability that you found through your
time as leader? Yeah, I came back to World Vision.
I worked for them for five years before I left,
but came back in 2007 working for Dave, actually,
and got the privilege to do that for almost eight
years before I stepped into the role in 2015
and then served for a decade. That was my plan.
Oh, that was your plan. And his plan for me was
two weeks, right, Michael? What can I say? You
were probably a faster learner than I was. I
was Allison, so I think that's fair. But yeah,
so I mean, Dave and I worked closely together.
I was his number two chief operating officer
for a period of time. But you know what? I mean,
I think all of us would say that no matter what
the season. Yep. The world changed. So the things,
for example, that brought huge growth to World
Vision during the 80s and 90s through Dave's
early years, they just weren't the same anymore.
Sure. Think of how we consume media or images
and how we share information. And this was all
pre -internet. And it was when we could work
on a single channel of a telethon or something
like that. Sure. So it really required us to
look and look at a very dynamic, changing Canadian
environment. Yeah. But always coming back to
the same thing, which is how do we make sure
that we appeal to Canadians and show that they
can make a difference in the world? Sure. No
matter what their values are, what their perspectives
are, we wanted to offer that opportunity. Again,
with this idea that the needs of the world were
always greater than the resources available.
Sure. We had to figure out what needs to stay
the same. Yep. And what needs to change. So even
during the pandemic, which is probably, you know,
we all, you know, the giant shift in that time,
it changed everything. Sure. So often in our
world vision, we would talk about, you know,
think about disasters that were happening somewhere
else. Sure. The pandemic was really a disaster
that was happening somewhere else and here at
home. And it made a connection, but it fundamentally
had to change everything that we did, the way
we did our programming in places like Nueva Fonterra
and Honduras, and in how we connected with our
donors and supporters and our churches and all
of our partners here in Canada. So through those
times, we kind of took three things. One, we
always wanted to make sure that we, responded
to the needs. You had to look around to say what's
changing and how can you get ahead of those things
so that we can adapt, you know, using technology
differently, ways of connecting, even messaging
and recognizing what it means in a multicultural
world. But in addition to responding, we also
wanted to make sure that we protected what was
most important, particularly the needs of children
so that they were being served, protecting our
mission and our vision and our Christian identity.
But then also the third element, and this was
always key in any change, was to adapt. So responding,
protecting, but also adapting. If we weren't
also investing in new ways of thinking and trying
to get ahead of what was coming, then we grew
and became more effective because we were investing
in innovation and doing new things, all with
the drive, trying to drive toward that mission
and vision. So those aren't very specific examples,
but the overall approach was really key. And
I suspect that was the same for Dave and Allison
in their own context. Culture and context is
always shifting, right? So, yeah, I think that's
really helpful to think about the adapting and
the protecting and, yeah, responding to those
needs. So you mentioned protecting sort of the
Christian vision and values and identity of World
Vision. So, like, what did that look like? How
do you do that? Yeah. Well, that's a huge question,
right? Because World Vision is a Christian organization.
But we really have wanted to not only just talk
to other Christians. Sure. but to invite all
Canadians to join us to say, look, we are motivated
by our Christian faith to reach out to those
in need. It's Jesus who said life in all its
fullness that we want to have for every child.
But you don't have to be a Christian to join
us. And so it was always that really interesting
balance. And Dave modeled this from the start.
How do we remain true to who we are and the values
and our motivation and even making sure that
we know that the way that we do our program work
is different because we're Christians? But how
do we invite others to join us no matter what
their perspective? And in a multicultural society
like Canada. It's that can be pretty tricky to,
you know, what is, what does it mean to be open
and, and listen, but also be really true to our
vision and mission without compromising those,
those kinds of things. So it's about focusing
on the things that hold us together rather than
the things that take us apart. For sure. Even
within the Christian community. So it's been,
it's been wonderful. And God has blessed us,
I think, to, and I love the fact that we have
supporters from, I can still say we yell. Yes,
you can. I'm enjoying this. I'm paying lots of
attention. We have supporters. from all different
backgrounds. Sure. But we're firmly grounded
in the church, including partnerships like the
one we have here. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I would
just add, right, that this expression of our
Christian faith here in Canada reflects what
we do on the ground. Our effectiveness is because
we partner across, you know, in technical terms,
we'll say Christian faith, faith, other faith
and non -faith actors to drive whole life and
whole community transformation. Right. And we
do that being grounded in our faith and in our
witness to Christ. We talk about being a witness
to Christ in life, in word, in deed, and in sign,
which means we can faithfully express his goodness
in any place in the world. Right. And so we live
that out in Canada as well. And do it without
any strings attached. Yeah. I think that's the
really important thing. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think
I love that, that sense of like, we're grounded
in our faith, but our faith doesn't limit what
we're able to do or who we're able to work with.
Right. That our why is Jesus. Exactly. But Jesus
is. In all of the places, even if people don't
know he's there yet. Very often it's coming alongside
and just joining Jesus in the work that he and
the Holy Spirit are already doing. Yeah, for
sure. That was really important for me when I
came here, that I need to read right away because
the U .S., it was all Christians. Sure. And I
think Michael's handled this, and you're handling
it too, is that we've got lots of people that
don't go to church. Sure. but they've got Christianity
somewhere in the background, or they see us at
least we're honest or we care, whatever, and
that needs to be respected. And I think that's
been consistent with all of our leaders here.
Sure. Yeah, I mean, you've managed to do that
too, because you're coming from what would be
an area where it was more Christian. than probably
in terms of our supporters. You know what I mean?
We always wanted to show integrity. You know,
you don't want to present as an onion and peel
the onions. back layer by layer. And then all
of a sudden in the middle, I don't know, you
find a surprise. So you want to be able to express
that. And so you want to make sure that no matter
how you say and who you are, you're clear on
who you are, what values motivate you and you
can go deeper, but that there's integrity all
the way. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
So, um, Allison, as you think about Trinity's
partnership with Nueva Frontera, is there one
thing that you think our church family should
sort of know about that? Is there like one piece
that you're like, this is really important? You
know, I think it would be what I left you with
today is to recognize that God is the one who
multiplies your, in some ways it might feel seemingly
small. In other ways, it feels like a really
significant sacrifice, right? But God is at work
multiplying your yes. and your investment in
one child and one family and one community in
ways that only he can. So I would say, you know,
as you think about the season ahead and getting
to that, what is it, two years and three months,
you know, towards us celebrating them graduating
into self -sufficiency. To keep walking that
faith with the Lord, right? And we were reminded,
right, the great commandment to continue to love
God with all our heart and soul and mind and
strength. And as an outpouring of that, to love
our neighbors as ourselves. And so to keep following
that path with Jesus one step and one day at
a time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I just add
to that? Because I think what Allison's message
is today. speaks to our Christian identity, which
is that God does multiply. We're not just a ministry
of programs, but we're a presence, prayer, and
this promise of transformation. And it's only
through the work of the Holy Spirit and the partnership
alongside that we can multiply. And that's pretty
amazing. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sometimes
when I am talking to people about the story of
the five loaves and the two fish, I'll look at
it and say, yeah, you know what? Five loaves
and two fish is not enough to feed 5 ,000 people
until you add Jesus. Yes. Right? That without
the Jesus bit, the multiplication doesn't happen.
Right. So we bring our bits, but like God does
some amazing things that we could never have
imagined. Okay. Yeah. So when you think about
like local churches in Canada, I think sometimes
there's a tension like between, you know, providing
for our community and providing for like the
international community. So like, how do you
find those pieces sort of coming together? You
know, I often think about, you know, add this
to another commission in Acts 1 verse 8, right?
And it says, and you will be my witnesses, right?
In Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends
of the earth. And so I inherently would say that
as a Jesus follower, we have a call to our local
neighbors first and foremost. And so I would
encourage everyone listening to, you know, consider
the way in which God calls you to care for your
local community, right? Whether that's prayer
or... you know, fellowship over meals, generosity
of home and spirit and sharing of life, right?
Volunteering at food banks, so many opportunities.
And what we know is that while there is so much
need in our country, we were reminded in 2020,
right? The great equalizer in some ways it felt.
And yet in Canada, we have safety nets and security
in ways that the most vulnerable simply don't
have. have, right? Whether that is in certain
forms of policy or in the provision of healthcare
or in access to education, the general protection
of your rights, food that is available in certain
ways for the majority. And so I would remember
that alongside the calling and the example of
Jesus, right? Who favored the outcasts, the marginalized,
the poor among Him, and to encourage you to go
and do likewise. Yeah, that's awesome. Thank
you so much. And I love that Trinity has a deep
connection with the local community, but also
makes space for partnerships like this. And I
think all three of us are child sponsors at World
Vision. I've been there with Trinity in 2023
in Honduras, and to hear from our sponsored child.
So it's a reminder, right, of that international
connection, even while we're right here. Yeah,
that it's not an either -or. It's let's figure
out how we can make space for both. So good.
Extending the table. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anything
else you want to sort of leave us with? Yeah.
Any, any final sort of words of encouragement
or wisdom? I looked at Michael or Dave. Well,
I had one story. Yeah. Of our, our daughter.
Yeah. And, and she went, it was kind of crazy.
There was a, a movement in Uganda and it was
just, It was unbelievable. And it was led partly
by a woman. And also, and it was Sudan was part
of it. Sure. And they were just, and it was called,
they had a movement and they were killing children.
It was just a disaster. And I don't know if it
was the greatest idea. Anyway, she had not traveled
overseas. She was 20 years old. And and then
I had a chance. We were going to go to see what
was going on. Yeah. And that was probably one
of the heaviest things in her life that she ever
experienced. Sure. She said that to me when we
got there and she was, you know, kind of observing.
But then there were these young girls who had
been raped and everything imaginable in a camp.
And she just walked in and started talking. Yeah.
Yeah. and talking and walking with these girls,
just comfort in them. And that was one of the
things she told me. She said, Daddy, I saw all
the things. I know what you're doing. But he
said, now I understand what you're talking about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one of the things
I'll never forget. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
That really personal experience, that personal
connection and knowing that like in all of this
work that world vision does, it's, it's so big
that I think sometimes we like stop to talk about
the numbers of it. And like, that's really important
to see that whole impact, but then yeah, to bring
it back in and to say, these are real kids. These
are real families, real lives being changed by
personal connection and impact is yeah. So important.
Yeah. So thank you so much. for sharing dave
and thank you all for being part of our podcast
today for taking this time to share your stories
and your ministry it's been so encouraging to
know yeah that this partnership that Trinity
has had with World Vision has been so impactful.
And yet that you're doing so much good work that
we are all able to participate in this work together.
And thank you for tuning into this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. Whether you are sort of part
of the Trinity family or not, whether you...
have been part of a partnership or a connection
with World Vision or not, I hope that you found
encouragement in this conversation. And I hope
that you feel challenged to go out to live the
Great Commission, the Great Requirement, and
the Great Commandment, and to love God, to love
your neighbor in all of the spaces where you
find yourself. And we will see you again next
week.