Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I am joined
here by two Trinity parishioners, and we're going
to chat a little bit more about the Holy Spirit.
Yeah, and the role that the Holy Spirit plays
in our faith and in our life. And yeah, kind
of. try to demystify this mysterious being, I
think, a little bit. So thank you so much for
joining me, folks. Thank you. Do you want to
just go ahead and do some introductions first?
Do you want to start us off here? Sure. My name
is James Chung. I've been attending Trinity since
1998. I'm married with two children. My wife
is Anne -Marie, and the children are Karen and
Kevin. And yeah. That sounds great. Thank you.
And what about you? Hi, I'm Rick. Rick Bradshaw.
I've been here since 2004. Most famous for being
Ali's husband. Okay. It's a good, important role.
Good. So first I want to start us off with a
little bit of word association. So when you hear
the word Holy Spirit, what's the first word that
sort of pops into your brain? Peace. Peace. Okay.
I don't know why. Okay. That's lovely. I love
that for you. What about for you, James? For
me, it's presence. It's the kind of presence
that changes people inside out. That once you
start thinking about it, you can't stop. that
basically comforts you it helps you sure when
when you ask for it sure yeah yeah yeah that's
so cool i think both of those answers are coming
from like deep experiences with the holy spirit
i think right because if i was to sort of ask
the general public when i say holy spirit what
comes to mind i think it would be like one of
the first things that came to mind for me is
like Yeah. Because people talk about like the
Holy ghost and they're like, there's, I remember
as a teenager, someone like talking about the
Holy spirit as a Holy ghost and then being like,
well, but it's a friendly ghost. It's not like
a scary, you know, like blue kind of ghost. But
yeah, I don't know. I think there's just lots
of different ideas about what the Holy spirit
is and people don't really sort of know what
to do with the spirit. I think. Yeah. One, one
other word that. actually came to mind when we
were talking about it is something that i learned
i guess a trinity yeah um the word stool and
and what i mean by that is i was explaining the
holy spirit is it's like if the trinity is like
a free legged stool okay so we all know god the
father god the son yeah but we always miss the
holy holy spirit sure and without that third
leg the stool won't stand sure so that to me
it's always like a explains to me what the holy
spirit is It's God. Sure. The Trinity is without
the third leg. Yeah. It doesn't explain it. So
that to me was always something that I appreciated
learning from, you know, it's not as mysterious
as, you know, what is it? You know, we, we know
God is father. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You like, you
need all the bits. Right. Right. Yeah, so then,
as you sort of said, sometimes people don't learn
about the Holy Spirit or they neglect to think
about the Holy Spirit. So in your lives, when
do you think you sort of first really learned
about the Holy Spirit? And how did that happen
in your life? Do you want to start us off? Yeah,
I mean, it's interesting you mentioned the Holy
Ghost, right? I remember that as a child. That's
just weird, right? I don't think it's a helpful...
very helpful term actually i don't know where
it came from but i'm not dissing any religion
any branch of christianity but it's um so yeah
growing up i think i did the alpha holy spirit
weekend yesterday and uh they talk about the
guy who starts off he says yeah i remember with
prayers at school the father son the holy ghost
or the holy spirit right but he said we never
ever talked about it apart from that so some
some parts of christianity don't really focus
on it whereas you've got pentecostals the people
that really get it right and the whole focus
so when did i so yeah so fast forward i i you
know i came to jesus when i came to trinity um
so it was talked about um but i yeah i guess
probably like equivalent of an alpha course like
we did uh christianity 101 i think okay yeah
that's when they start to talk about how you
can have a personal relationship with sure with
Jesus with God um through the Holy Spirit and
then I was like oh because I remember Pentecost
it was Pentecost Sunday right sure but that's
the kind of the the tongs of fire just remember
from Sunday school but that's not really that
personal relationship and I think that's that's
a big change in your when you're thinking and
you're when you actually experience uh god through
the holy spirit then you're like oh it's not
it's just a way it's a way of explaining how
he connects with us i guess sure yeah yeah yeah
yeah so it's that i think interesting then for
you that like it sort of came around the same
time as like experiencing the rest of christianity
in some sense right that it was it was a really
sort of integrated model and i think that's super
helpful What about for you, James? For me, it's
kind of different. I first learned about the
Holy Spirit when reading the Bible about Pentecost.
And the image that always stayed in my head at
the time was the flame over people's head. That
to me was the Holy Spirit. Very dramatic and
scary. So that's the first part when I learned
about the Holy Spirit. And when I first, when
I felt, I believe that I received the Holy Spirit
was at my confirmation. So I was around 13 and
the laying of the hands of the bishop to me that
was like as a symbol. So it was me accepting
Jesus from my godparents and parents who baptized
me. So it was an intention. to accept Jesus.
And I felt the symbolism, I guess, of the sacrament
of confirmation was the laying of the Holy Spirit.
I don't know whether it's true or false, but
that's what I learned. Sure. So that was my first.
And the first time I really experienced it was
at a youth retreat where I guess I saw the Holy
Spirit acting up in other people. Like they were
filled with emotions. I guess in some ways now
it's more of a charismatic way of feeling the
Holy Spirit. But I remember praying to God, how
come I never felt that? I see all these people
feeling it, but is there something wrong with
me? So it was kind of three ways. And basically,
after a while, I learned that really God is not
that far. God is in us. And that's through the
Holy Spirit. I kind of accept it. I don't have
to feel the same. my transformation was a little
bit slow and different. Sure, sure. But yeah.
So the three first times were the Holy Spirit,
but that's how it was. Yeah, I think that like
there is sometimes that feeling like maybe we're
missing something if we're not having a really
dramatic experience or a really emotional experience.
And like those are really real. Like people feel
that and that happens, but that's not how the
Holy Spirit works in every single person, right?
Like we don't need to have these, These really
dramatic moments. Not to say that those are bad.
No. At all. They're good. They're very good.
Yeah. But yeah, to sort of say the Holy Spirit
works in us in different ways. Yeah. Yeah, for
sure. Okay. So how would you say that the Holy
Spirit has sort of been part of your life? Like,
what does it look like? Are there moments or
stories where you can say, ah, this was the Holy
Spirit sort of working in me? Yeah. To move on
from what? James said, I've done the same thing.
I've done the, again, mentioned the Alpha Holy
Spirit weekend, but that's when you see it in
other people. Yeah. And you experience it together,
actually, as well, in those situations. But that's
a dramatic, very obvious sign. Yeah. But then,
now I look back and realize that times, the nudges,
the things, why did I... you know god is sort
of nudging you more gently and you realize afterwards
oh actually there's the holy spirit was guiding
me but i actually didn't realize it sure right
so um that's that's fascinating to me i start
look back okay yeah i just didn't know it so
if you feel it in a dramatic way and then you
realize oh and then so you start to um look out
for that sure aware of it and you think it's
like it's some people call it conscience as well
i don't know i don't know the answer but yeah
sure it's it's more than conscience i think it's
okay uh you know and you have to learn to be
open to it yep and to recognize it when it's
happening sure sure easy to say but not always
yes not always easy to do for sure for sure yeah
and then like i think the point that you raised
there but like being able to see it retrospectively
is like really helpful because yeah i think sometimes
we just don't know in the moment we're just doing
the thing that feels right to do or the thing
that feels like we should do for some reason
um But yeah, to be able to look back on it and
say, oh, God was actually in that, right, is
really valuable. And yeah, a skill that we have
to hone, I think. Yeah, I think that's the key
is to recognize it and look out for it and be
aware of it. And then you feel it more. You really
get God can talk to you. You've got to test it.
You've got to be careful. Is it my voice or is
it God's voice? You've got to test these things.
It's not simple. It was easy. There won't be
much point, I guess. We have free will. We've
got bad free will and good free will. For sure.
What would you add to that, James? I think it's
very similar to what Rick just said. Holy Spirit
is part of everyday life so to me the way I would
think is I have to think of it more as something
I intentionally want like asking and receiving
like yeah so if I if I feel like anxious or anything
I would ask and I would I would say automatically,
but I would feel at peace. And if I get angry
or anything, I would say, just help me. So I
kind of, in that way, in everyday life, I try
to get the Holy Spirit as a helper. Whenever
I feel there's a need for it, and like you say,
it's hard to know whether it's my decision or
whether it's God's will wanting me to do it.
But I feel that when you're, When your nudge
is the word I normally use to go help somebody,
do it. Don't even question because it's something
good. It must be coming from God, right? And
when I'm tempted, I know it's something bad because,
again, to me, it's the Holy Spirit telling me,
well, think about it. Why are you so anxious
about this thing? Maybe it's not something you
should be doing, right? It's just this kind of
nudge. It's not. But you just feel, I guess,
the way to approach it is ask. Sure, sure. Yeah,
I think that that's such an important piece,
right? That the Holy Spirit, we can ask God and
God will give us the Holy Spirit, right? Scripture
promises us that, right? And it's not something...
we ask for one time and then we're set for life,
right? Like, yes, we can receive the Holy Spirit
really powerfully in one particular moment. But
every day you need to go back and say, God, lead
me through this thing. Spirit, like, be present
here. Speak to me. Yeah. It's that continually
going back to prayer and asking again and again.
Yeah, for sure. So if you then think about, you
know, we sort of said, like, that the holy spirit
we can sometimes think of it like our conscience
right and and but it it is a bit different i
think so there were things that you guys would
say like would help people sort of distinguish
between those two things yeah yeah i think we
talked about testing yeah testing so what does
that testing look like yeah so i i mean there's
a number of ways but i think it's like one way
is is this um you know like in in line with what
we think is it is it good right i mean we know
what's good and we know what's bad right sure
sometimes but you know not always but you know
okay so is it good is it um you know is it in
line with like you know read the bible we know
scripture we know what god's plan is sure for
the world you can pretty much often Is this really
part of God's plan or not? Maybe you don't know,
but there's that. Sure. Yeah, and is it building
someone up or is it something that builds people
up? Is it something that is helpful as opposed
to selfish, I guess? Sure. It's not easy. It's
not always clear -cut. Yeah, what would you add
to that? I would say the same thing. Normally,
when I try to think of whether it's the Holy
Spirit who's guiding me or not, I try to memorize
the spirit, the fruits of the Holy Spirit. So
I would say, does it bring joy? Does it bring
peace? Is it self -control? Does it nudge me
to serve others? That's kind of how I see the
work, I guess, in my life, so to speak. You're
feeling anxious and you're really desperate and
you pray to God and say, I'm surrendering this
to you. And then you feel that peace. You know
where it's coming from, right? And similarly,
when I'm nudged to see somebody and help and
I'm willing to listen and take the time and try
to help. Again, to me, it's the works. It's the
result of the Holy Spirit. I wouldn't call it
the works. To me, when I read the fruit of the
Holy Spirit, it's basically the result of Him
working in us. Sure. And that's what it can bring
so much. Yeah, the other thing I should have
said is also you can ask other people. That's
the bit I missed. You've got people you trust
in your life. faithful christians and yeah run
it by them that's right yeah yeah yeah yeah so
i think like what this makes me think about is
therefore we don't follow the holy spirit like
in isolation right it's not just like ah this
spirit this sense of god in me is the only thing
that guides me no we are led in community we're
led through scripture through the example of
jesus right like all of these things come together
to help us understand how the holy spirit works
in our lives yeah Yeah. And I think the other
thing, yeah, I would also sort of highlight the
fruit of the spirit as like a way to think about
that. Right. Because Jesus says in the gospels,
you know, there's going to be all kinds of false
teachers who come up. And how will you know what
is true and what is not? You will know them by
their fruit. Right. Right. And then Paul gives
us later in Galatians, this list of love, joy.
Peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness, self -control. I think that's all.
You got it. Okay, great. Thank you. Yeah, so
if those are the things that are the result of
our works or the result of whatever this decision
is that we're making, right? We ask, okay, is
this decision going to be one full of love, full
of kindness and gentleness and faithfulness?
There's a pretty good chance that that's God.
That's the Spirit leading you, right? Yeah. What
about in terms of, you know, like spiritual gifts
or in terms of, you know, like how we experience
a conviction or comfort? Like how would you say
you know when you're experiencing the work of
the Holy Spirit in sort of those ways? Or like
how do those pieces relate, do you think? Yeah,
I guess in many ways it's related. For me, for
example, it's like if I feel kind of a peace
that I can't explain. I know I shouldn't be that
relaxed about it, but certainly I do, right?
Or if I'm feeling... That I need to do something
about a certain situation and helping other people.
Again, I go back to, I guess, what Jesus told
us we are supposed to do is love God, love others,
and then, you know, come back with the Holy Spirit
to fill us every day, right? Sure. When you think
about those things that's happening in everyday
life, sometimes I would even feel like I'm watching
a sunset from a beautiful beach. I said, that's
God at work. I mean, who can create that, right?
So it's little things, but also big things. It's
like, you know, on an everyday basis. And what
I always say is like... trying to have an attitude
of gratitude. If you think of the things that
God is doing in your life that's good, that to
me is basically, it's the Holy Spirit just telling
you these are the good things that can happen.
I often thought about the gifts of the spirit.
And, you know, in the Bible and everywhere else,
the Holy Spirit. I don't have much of that. So
how do I fit in? But when I think and try to
kind of reflect on it, I think there's a certain
kind of wisdom and counsel that I'm comfortable
with. Like people come to me for a lot of advice.
And I say, why is that? Ever since I was from
university college, right? People used to call
me a nickname like Papa, which is Father. Because
they like the advice from me. I've never learned
to do that. To me, it's something else. And when
I reflect back after learning about the Holy
Spirit more, I say, it must be. So these are
the kind of things that to me shows that the
Holy Spirit does work in life. Often, And how
do you say it? When I feel like I'm tempted,
there's weaknesses. To me, if I don't do it again,
it's the Holy Spirit. Because I do pray about
it. I feel I need to get that help. And just
realizing that it is a weakness and something
that I need to work on is the conviction to me
from the Holy Spirit that tells me, well... You
should do something about it or not do something
about it, right? Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. So these
are the kind of things that, again, it's what
the intention, I guess, is important. Yeah, so
the Holy Spirit both, like, gives you these good
gifts, these abilities to do things, and guards
you from the things that you shouldn't be doing.
Right, right. And this is, yeah, these different
sort of roles are both part of what's happening.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What would you sort of add
to that? Yeah, no, I'd like that. It has started
off with saying peace, right? So you're at peace,
you know, that feeling that it's probably okay.
Yep. But equally the absence of peace, agitation.
Yep. You're kind of, you just know, right? You're
not as kind of uncomfortable. Yep. You know,
man, shouldn't be doing this, right? Sure. And
as you said, then you just pray on it. and so
the first step is always acknowledge right you've
got to acknowledge you okay god i shouldn't be
doing this and then help me yeah please help
me yeah and he does right and that's that's the
spirit comes alongside to help you sure um and
you know pokes you why am i so uncomfortable
yeah because you don't be doing it right you
know what this is you need to do something else
yeah i like that yeah and okay so then i also
think though like And we're talking about, you
know, sometimes experiencing the Holy Spirit
is uncomfortable, like when we're being convicted,
when we're being told, you know, like maybe you
shouldn't be doing that thing. But I also wonder
if sometimes the things that the Holy Spirit
asks us to do positively, like is also uncomfortable
sometimes, right? Like it's not always super
happy. It doesn't always feel like the most loving,
joyful thing, right? So like, yeah, how do we...
know or how do we experience the Holy Spirit
in those challenging times as well, do you think?
What helps us get through that? To me, it's praying
and talking to God. When things like that happen
to me, I always say, God, are you sure you want
me to do this? I'm not sure I'm equipped to do
this, right? Are you sure? you know what i just
do it and then if it works out i know it's from
you if it doesn't work out so that's how i kind
of got get around it i said if i really feel
i need to do something and i feel it's coming
from the god i don't necessarily think of the
holy spirit but it is him working in us right
yeah yeah so then i would do it and then from
the result of it and i would say okay that was
what you wanted me to do, and I now know why,
even though I wasn't comfortable, like you say.
There are many things. I'm still, to me, with
the Holy Spirit, I'm still worried that I'm not
doing as much of the commission, of bringing
other people to Jesus. I find it hard. And when
I feel it's happening, I pray to God, give me
something to talk about. Sure. I don't know that
person. On the other hand, I have like my daughter
and my son -in -law, they will go out and talk
to anybody. Sure. They're just traveling now
and they're just saying how they talk to somebody,
the Uber driver, and they were now praying, let's
pray for, hopefully he can. Yeah. But this is
the kind of, I would love, but I know it's not
me. It's like my personal character, I guess.
But I know it's something that I'm required to
do because God did say, love God, love others,
but bring others to me, make disciples. And that's
the part I feel I'm still weak. Sure. And I still
need lots of prayers for that. Sure. Yeah. There's
all. sorts of areas where we all need to grow
right yeah and i think the spirit works with
our different personalities right so like yeah
i'm also probably not the person who's going
to pray with her uber driver that's just not
my personality but in the like sort of as you
were saying you know people would come to you
for advice and come to you for support right
and that is also a way of bringing people to
jesus so just yeah working with these different
sort of ways yeah yeah Yeah, there's a previous
pastor at this church said that if you want God
to show up, the Holy Spirit to show up in your
life, put yourself in a position where he has
to. I've done that a couple of times. I don't
know what I want to do. I don't know what to
do. I don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah. Okay,
I remember those words. I go and do it, and he's
going to be there for you, right? Sure. And it's
happened to me a couple of times where I just
didn't know what to do. Yeah. couple of times,
people were really sick. You don't know what
to say, what to do. Sure. But go and see them.
Go and read the Bible. Yep. Yeah. Pray with them.
Yep. And I said, Lord, I don't know what to do.
Don't worry. Yeah. Go. Yeah. And he shows up.
Yeah. In those situations, you put yourself where
you have no... You have no option. I don't know
what to do. God, you have to show up here. Because
I'm hopeless. I need you. Yeah. Yeah. That takes
so much faith. A lot of courage. I've done it
all the time. I've done it a few times. Sure.
Sure. But yeah. Yeah. And I think the other piece
when I think about, you know, dealing with the
challenging bits is like making sure that we
have a supportive community around us. Right.
That if God is calling me to do something that
feels really hard to do, chances are God is not
calling me to do that in isolation. Right. Right.
Or at least without the support and affirmation
of other people. Right. If I'm feeling like so,
for example, right. Like I've been thinking about,
you know, discerning this this call to ministry.
Does God want me to sort of pursue this this
path? Right. And it feels really hard and scary
to me. But there have been people all along the
way who have said, Kyla, like we're with you
in this. We see this in you and like all of these
things. Right. So. It's those people that help
me believe that this is what the Holy Spirit
is calling me to do, even though it's a hard
thing. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So we've talked a lot
about sort of our experiences of the Holy Spirit
and what that sort of looked like. How would
you say, like, are there specific resources or
specific practices that have really helped you
to grow in your understanding of the Holy Spirit?
Maybe things that other people might want to
sort of try as well to get a little bit more
meat, a little bit more understanding. To me,
it's basically intentionally spending time with
God. And that's through many things. It's reading
the Bible, doing prayers as a routine every day.
recognizing God's work in your everyday life,
trying to look for opportunities to serve others,
how you spend your time or money. Like it's intentionally
doing things that you feel God wants you to do
as part of his plan. Sure. And it always goes
back to what did Jesus call us to do? Yeah. Love
God, love others, and bring others to Him. Right.
And make disciples. So if you do any of those
things, and you do it every day, I feel the Holy
Spirit will help us, I hope, bring us closer
to God and to God's will. And, oh, there's one
thing I did mention. Yeah. Intentionally surrendering
our will to God to let Him do. His work is something
I do almost every day because I feel like I want
to do things, but I say, I will do them if God
aligns, will aligns with mine, right? And that's
the part which, as Rick mentioned, is the hard
thing to do. Which one is my wants and which
one is actually God's will, right? Both looks
very interesting. That's why I want them. So
doing that every day is, I think, that's when
the Holy Spirit really helps us. Right. Because
we're intentionally wanting His help. And the
way I explain this is God is never far from us.
He's in us, right? So He's in us through the
Holy Spirit. And He wants... to show others Jesus
through us. So through our actions, through our
thoughts. So if you choose kindness over anger,
that's one way. And you want other people to
see it because they can see those actions. And
if they know who is helping you, then... Hopefully
that will bring them to ask the question. Sure.
Yeah. Yeah. So it's a lot of prayer, right? And
a lot of like honesty with God too, right? Communicating.
And just sort of saying, yeah, here's where we're
at. Here's what I'm feeling right now and help
me God to walk through this. Yeah. Yeah. What
would you sort of add? Yeah, I think that's great.
And listening, right? Yes. Yeah, listening. I,
you know, often go to prayer, to go up with a
shopping list of prayer. Sure, sure, sure, sure.
And like, finished that, I finished, right? I'm
not listening. I'm just carrying like this list
of things. I'm just like, why? Just be, be with,
it's not like a, if you want a friendship with
someone, a relationship, you don't just ask them.
all these things you actually listen right yeah
so that's one but i think for me also it's with
other people right and and the most times i felt
the holy spirit is like in worship and when we're
all together yeah um i went to big like uh christian
conference in the uk and man everyone was worshiping
and it was just you could palpably feel the holy
spirit yeah so i think doing doing it together
right and i i would say people in their life
groups challenge you guys um guys and girls go
when you're in a small group say let's let's
ask the holy spirit to come let's actually spend
time in prayer together and let's ask the holy
spirit to come on us and and be with us okay
because we that's not very anglican right it's
not sure sure pentecostal guys people are you
know all over that right yeah so we don't have
to go that far but like Let's, I think we did
one time we did like a, we read the same thing
over and over. I can't really call that. Oh,
like the Lectio kind of? We're all reading the
same words together. Come Holy Spirit, come Holy
Spirit, bless me Father. And just kind of all
saying it together. Sounds a bit weird and culty,
but it's not. I promise you it's not. Sure, sure.
We were all sitting together and we did this
for quite a long period of time. Sure. Afterwards,
we were all just like, wow. We all felt like,
ah, I feel at peace. I felt the Spirit come.
It came with us. We're sitting there together.
I would say that's a challenge for the life groups.
Try and do that. Ask the Holy Spirit. Yeah, so
I think for folks who are wanting more of the
Holy Spirit in their life, getting yourself in
a community of Christians, people who want to
journey that journey with you. Um, yeah. And
spending time in prayer, listening in prayer,
which is really, I think, awkward sometimes,
especially silence. It's that space. Um, yeah.
Spending time in scripture, figuring out, you
know, that God, God speaks through scripture.
God speaks through people. God speaks in lots
of different ways, but when you're reading scripture,
God has given it to us as, as this conduit of
God's word. Right. And so. That's definitely
a way that God leads us. Yeah, and then there
are all kinds of other resources if people want
to sort of read things about the Holy Spirit
and understand. Yeah, I'd really sort of encourage
folks to ask questions. The Trinity, the Spirit,
is a really confusing concept. It is. But God
can handle all of our questions. Thank you so
much, folks, for this really, I think, encouraging
conversation. Thank you. And thank you for joining
in on this week's episode of Trinity Talks. Whether
you feel like you've had experiences with the
Holy Spirit or not, I pray that you have been
able to find some wisdom here. You've been able
to find some inspiration to, yeah, just ask God
for more of the Spirit's love and life in you.
And we will see you again next week.