Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. My name is
Amalvel. My name is Elizabeth. And I'm Hugh.
And we are here to continue our conversation
about spiritual practices. What are some of the
habits, the things that we can do to help us
grow in our walk with Christ? And today we're
talking about the spiritual practice of witness.
And witness is kind of a... I don't know if it's
a fancy word, but it's a Christian word that
we use for sort of telling people about our faith.
And so we're going to talk through, you know,
what are some of the things that makes that really
great? What are some of the things that make
that really hard? Why do people not want to tell
other people about their faith sometimes? Yeah.
And hopefully we can find some encouragement
in the midst of the conversation as well. But
yeah, just as we start thinking about, you know,
what is the spiritual practice of witness? What
would you sort of say to help define it? Do you
want to start us off, Hugh? Sure. I would describe
witnessing as different from evangelism. Yeah.
Witnessing is really living and walking with
someone out of deep love. It's journeying with
someone. Evangelism would be more like speaking
about Christian principles, maybe to a large
audience or maybe to a small group. But it's
using words more than attitude or more than your
life. Right. Witnessing is living out of deep
love from your life. So that's how I would say
it. Yeah, so it's like more relational in some
ways. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. What
would you add to that, Elizabeth? I would say
the spiritual practice of witnessing is to bear
witness to the truth of the gospel, helping to
bring others to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
It is understood that while... Believers are
called to communicate the message. It is the
Holy Spirit who actively converts the earth.
Then on the other hand, evangelism actively explaining
the biblical story of salvation to a friend or
an individual leading a Bible study or preaching
the gospel message. in a structured way right
so then like evangelism can kind of be like a
subset of witnessing sometimes like sometimes
we use these words interchangeably but they are
focused a little bit differently And I think
I really appreciate the point that you made about,
like, relying on the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I
think we think, oh, when I'm witnessing or when
I'm sharing my faith with someone, it's my job
to, like, convince them, right? And that's not
our job, right? We have to depend on the Holy
Spirit to lead. We do the part that we can do,
and we leave the rest up to God. Yeah. What would
you sort of add to that, Amalvel? I would sort
of look at it almost like witnessing as in, like,
even from like a like a justice standpoint like
in the sense of can other people recognize you
as christian in your life you know even if they're
not christian themselves can they recognize you
as christian through your words your actions
how you live your life can you look at somebody
and say there goes a christian person right okay
yeah yeah just that ability to so then it doesn't
even need to be necessarily about the things
that we say It can be, but it's about living
with integrity and living like Jesus. Yeah, exactly.
In all of the places that we live our lives,
at work, at school. Because we can say that we're
Christian and then be the complete opposite of
it. Sure. That's why Jesus says in the Sermon
on the Mount, you know. That many will say, Lord,
Lord, and say that they did things in his name.
Right. You know, but Jesus will say to some,
depart from me, I never knew you. Right. So witnessing
is making sure that you're living while respecting
and honoring Jesus. Right. You're living a life
where Jesus can say, you know, you did well.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Okay, so that gives us a sort
of conceptual idea of what witnessing is. Can
we make that a little more practical? Like, what
does witnessing look like? What does it look
like to sort of share your faith with other people?
What are ways that we might do that? Well, I
think Jesus gave us the first clue, if you want.
He said, love one another. And that's how they'll
know that you're Christians. And so the various
forms of love that we can extend to people. If
someone is struggling, you give them a call or
you take them out to lunch. Or one of the most
powerful ways, I think, of loving someone is
to deeply listen to them. And that's easier said
than done, because when you deeply listen to
someone, it means that you suspend your own agenda,
you suspend your own noise in your head. And
for that very moment, the person that's sitting
in front of you is the most important person
in the world. That's kind of deep listening.
And that's a real example, I think, of the kind
of love that Jesus was talking about. And that's
that to me is is powerful witnessing. And I think
that's a really important part of it that we
don't often think about. Like often when we think
about witnessing or sharing our faith, we think,
oh, I need to be saying things. I need to be
doing things. But actually, the practice of just
listening to another person's story and being
able to reflect that back to them and being able
to say, yeah, you know what? That was really
hard. Yeah. You know what? Like, I want to walk
with you through that. Like that is. sharing
our faith in really meaningful ways. Yeah. Yeah.
What else does it maybe look like to sort of
share our faith with other people? Some of the
ways that the individual witness and share their
faith is through a combination of lifestyle.
Example, have personal testimony and direct father
invitation. Common method include act of kindness.
praying for others, sharing personal testimony
of God's impact in their lives, inviting the
individuals to church events, and engaging in
a respective conversation about the faith. Right,
yeah, yeah. So it is... Some of that acts of
kindness, that listening, like you just said,
it's, yeah, inviting folks to church, whether
it's Sunday morning church or to, you know, a
dinner that's happening or the Easter egg hunt
that we did yesterday. Just inviting people to
come along with you and sort of experience the
love of Jesus. Yeah. And then I think there is
a part of witnessing, a part of sharing our faith
that does involve sometimes saying words. And
that's the part I think that's really hard for
people. Um, but yeah, I think it is an important
part that like, you know, often I think when
we tell, when we talk about like sharing your
faith, we're like, oh yeah, just live by example,
like live, live the way that Jesus calls you
to live. And other people will notice that. But
then when other people notice that the Bible
instructs us, be ready to sort of give an answer.
right when people notice hey amava why are you
like this right to be able to say well actually
i'm like this because i believe this thing because
jesus has asked me to live this way right right
yeah and not doing it in a super pushy way but
just in a like this is where i'm coming from
kind of way yeah i mean we should be able to
you know like go to church do what we gotta do
and if people are curious genuinely curious and
not trying to be trolling not trying to you know
push buttons or whatever you know if they're
actually curious yeah invite them along you know
be like listen I go to 1115 service you're welcome
to come if you want I'm going either way sure
you know yeah and just sort of let them let them
come on their own you know I mean I think one
thing that that turns people away from religion
is when it's sort of like you're going because
you're you're kind of forced to you know i mean
yes as a as a kid you kind of have to be of course
but sure you know but when you're an adult i
mean that's when you you know you should be going
because you actually want to sure and so if people
are curious about the faith or feel like they
have a calling to go allow them to go with you
which can be tough because sometimes you look
at them and you're like you've done a lot of
damage already you know you've done you know
you whether it's mocking or whether it's not
believing or it's just you know how they act
or so and maybe they're not your favorite person
but then you're to deal with but at the end of
the day If you're helping to save a soul, that
that should count for something. Sure. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that that being willing to
bring someone along with you to church or to
whatever it is, is, I think, super important.
Like sometimes we'll just say, you know, we'll
give somebody this invitation, be like, hey,
go to church. Right. And that's fine. Maybe that
works. But actually, I think what works better
is to say, hey, come with me to church. Or like,
hey, I'll pick you up. Or like, hey, I'll meet
you at the door. We'll sit together through the
service. Or if you'd like to go, let me know.
Yeah, or whatever. It has to be willingness.
Because there was a song that said, I was glad
when they said unto me, let us go into the house
of the Lord. So it has to come from the heart,
not just... pushing or forcing the individual
to the church service. I mean, God gave us all
free will. So, I mean, this is free will in action,
you know, to go to church. Nobody should be forcing
you. You should just go because you want to,
because you're curious, because you're compelled.
Yeah. And that, you know, just like you have
the free will to say no every time to church
if you want to. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think
it's, as we said earlier, witnessing is relational.
And so before we use words, and words are very
appropriate at the right time, I think we have
to ensure that we have the person's confidence.
Sure. uh permission because jesus never violated
the integrity of anyone you always respect people's
integrity and that's i think what we need to
do as christians when i was a new christian i
didn't know i didn't know i didn't know that
and i didn't do it i i was i i went out and i
wanted to convert everybody overnight sure sure
somebody said you know what you should do with
new christians is lock them up for six months
They're too passionate. They're too passionate
about it. But once you have the relationship
and you have the person's permission, then you
can say, listen, this is what the Christian walk
has meant for me. This is what Jesus has meant
for me. And here's what it's done for me. And
offer it to them. And then it's their choice.
It's their free will, as you were saying. Yeah.
And I think what you were just saying there,
Hugh, about, you know, really sharing your perspective
and your story. I think that's a really important
part of witnessing that we also sometimes neglect
to sort of think about. We think like, oh, if
I'm going to share my faith with other people,
I need to like have all the Bible verses lined
up. I need to have all the right arguments. I
need to be able to answer all of the really hard
questions. But that's not. what a witness does.
Like if you think about a witness in a courtroom,
the witness's job is to say, here's what I saw.
Here's what I heard. Here's what my experience
of things has been. Right. You don't need to
rebuttal all of the arguments. You don't need
to have all the answers. No. And we think, I
think we need to be more comfortable with saying,
I don't know. Right. When someone comes at you
and they're like, ah, there's this thing that
I'm like really sort of on a, rant about or when
they're like oh here's a really hard question
that you just won't be able to answer for me
be like yeah no i don't know but i believe anyway
yeah right and here's what my experience of god
has been even if i don't know the answer to that
specific thing right like just giving ourselves
that freedom and love is the key you know once
you've had the the privilege and the honor of
of walking with someone in love And then they
will be more open. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So there's
this piece around sort of hard questions and
not knowing what to say. Are there any other
challenges or things that you think keep people
from wanting to share their faith with others?
Yeah, I would say the fact is that you don't
know how they're going to react to you being
Christian. especially if they're coming from
another faith you know there's a wide variety
of reactions from sure from anger or violence
to apathy to mocking to to people being like
oh that's great for you right you know right
yeah that's great for you but i'm never gonna
do that or whatever you know what i mean i'm
never gonna be christian you know or whatever
you know so you don't know how you're How are
you going to react? But, you know, and especially,
I mean, fortunately, most people, at least in
the Western world, are at least somewhat civilized
that you can, you know, we're not fortunately
at the point where Christianity is persecuted
like in other places. But, you know, it is sort
of it can be tough because, you know, because
you've got to be prepared that. People are not
going to like the fact that you're Christian.
Sure. Or even worse, they're just not going to
care. Sure. You know, they're not going to see
it as a great thing or, you know, it's just like,
oh, whatever, you know. Right. Yeah. So there's
often that fear of like, OK, how are other people
going to react to this? Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's
a big barrier for sure. What about other things,
other challenges that sometimes come up? The
challenging part of. about witnessing is sharing
my faith or the gospel with others. Some individuals
will try to intimidate or start arguments. So
before you do that, you should pray within yourself
for the Holy Spirit to intervene and direct what
you're going to say. Then overcoming the challenges
often require shifting the focus from pressure
of converting someone to simply being a faithful
witness by relying on the Holy Spirit to guide
the conversation and focusing on loving others.
So that would be your main focus. You know, address
them in a proper way and, you know, present what
you're going to say to them in a simple format,
not too grammatic. Or maybe, you know, because
some people, they will say, lower your, the way
you talk, you know, because they are still baby
Christians, so we should approach them in a normal.
way yeah yeah yeah and i think that like one
of the things that you said was like yeah that
the pressure is not to convert people the pressure
is to do the part that you can do and if you're
one part of planting a seed if you're one part
of watering whatever sort of stage you are in
that right like i just think about like friends
that i had in high school specifically that like,
you know, would talk to them about faith things
from time to time, but like never really saw
anything come of it. And then it was years later
when I was like, oh, this person is like now
attending church and like following Jesus. And
I had nothing to do with the final moment where
that happened. right with where like the switch
was flipped but like maybe something that i said
along the way you contributed to the journey
in some way yeah yeah i think one of the challenges
too is to to understand from our own journey
how delicate we are and how delicate everyone
is. Everyone really needs to be affirmed. Someone
said to me one time, speak ill of no one, but
speak the good you know about everyone. So when
you're sitting in front of a person, you say,
well, what is it in their life that they need
to be affirmed on? Because we all need it. And
there's a beautiful book and video, actually,
of Desmond Tutu and his relationship with the
Dalai Lama. Two different fates, but a beautiful
love coming together. And, you know, the real
key to... various faiths, various religions,
is to really deeply listen to each other and
learn from each other and affirm what is good
in each tradition. Because there are some good
things in every tradition. We have the truth
as Christians, but maybe not a monopoly on it.
And so sometimes that's a challenge because we
know... we you know in our mind you know we're
going to convert everybody everybody should be
a christian by tomorrow but but but no you know
jesus walked with people we're called we're called
to walk but more more important i think we're
called to to a deep love and a deep listening
and i think that's one of the things that really
uh that that really got me to um to want to be
christian is the fact that You know, like coming
from Islam, the idea is that everyone's supposed
to be Muslim or, you know, right. With Christianity,
we just want the good word to be spread. That's
it. That's it. You know, we just want the good
word to be spread and heard. And then you do
what you do. You do whatever you want. You know,
if you want to read the Bible, go to church,
follow Christ. Amen. You know, but if you choose.
But if you hear the good news and you still deny
Christ, at least, you know, well, that's, that's
your choice. You know, you make that choice,
you know, and you know, it's, you know, what
happens in the, in the, after you die is determined
by what you do in this life. So if you choose
to deny in this life after hearing the good word,
well, then, you know, you made that choice, but
if you choose to follow Christ, You know, especially
if you're coming from a different faith and you
say, no, Jesus is the truth, the way and the
life. And I believe in him, you know, then, you
know, that that's the power of free will. And
that's the power of the good word, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. Our job is really just to be faithful
to Christ. And it takes time. Sure. It's a process.
And realizing that, you know, God is beyond,
it's beyond time. So he's not too concerned about
time. He has all the time in the world. We're
concerned about time. You know, C .S. Lewis used
to say I was the greatest skeptic in all of England.
So it took him time and it was a process for
him to come to Jesus. And for him it was more
of an intellectual process. And for some people
it's an emotional process. Or some people it's
a spiritual process. But sometimes It takes the
intellectual, emotional, spiritual work. And
that takes time. Yeah. So we've talked about
what makes it hard to witness or to share our
faith with other people. But then on the flip
side, are there things that make it joyful or
that make it feel really meaningful? Like, why
do we do this, even though it's hard? I think
part of it is, Part of the joy is just seeing
how there's many ways that people can come to
Christ. It's not just one way, you know. For
some, it's reading a verse in the Bible that
confirms what they've believed all along. For
others, it's getting to a low point and a dark
point in their life. For others, you know, their
journey is, well, my parents are Christian. My
grandparents are Christian. I lived in a Christian
household. That's the only way. And praise them
for that, you know? So it really, we all have
our different story. We all have a different
reason why, like how we came to Christ. So it's
nice to know because it's, at least for me, I
find it easy, especially with most of my family
not being Christian. It's easy to give up hope.
Sure. It's easy to be like, you know what, they're
all lost causes, right? But then again, I was
a lost cause until 36 when I came to Christ.
So, you know. Everybody has their own journey
and maybe for most of them, they will never turn
to Christ. Sure. But you know what? It's again,
it's it's everybody's choice. And, you know,
you just have to, you know, you just have to
understand that, you know, if people come to
Christ, it may not be, you know, at the time
you think it is. And you just have to now that
you're Christian, you have to focus on making
sure that. you're still on the right path and
that you're still following Christ. And our responsibility
is to walk with them in love and then to share
the words, if appropriate. But it's not our responsibility
to pull them in. That's the Holy Spirit's responsibility.
I love what Jimmy Carter used to say. There are
two loves in the world, one for God and one for
the person. happening to stand that happens to
be standing in front of you and i i really like
that you know so our responsibility is to love
it's not to convert yeah that's jesus's responsibility
that's god's responsibility yeah yeah yeah and
i think the piece that you were saying a novel
about like all of these different stories i think
the joy for me in that is that like as I hear
different people's stories and different ways
that they have come to understand God, different
ways they've come to experience God, like I actually
get to learn more about who God is as well and
how God works in the world, right? Like God works
through our family history. God works through
scripture. God works through intellect. God works
through creation. Like all of these things are
ways that people come to know and experience
the love of Christ. And it's so cool to get to
like see that. And, like, hear that from people,
I think. Yeah. Yeah. The joy for me is just sharing
with people my journey, you know. Yeah. The grace
of God in my life, you know. Yeah. I could have
gone through so many ways, you know. I remember
at one point in my career, early in my career,
I was the chief psychiatric social worker in
the Kingston Penitentiary. Okay. And I remember.
interviewing an inmate one time, and he said
to me, you know, Hugh, given different circumstances,
you could be behind bars and I could be where
you are. Absolutely. And he was absolutely right.
And for the grace of God, why? And I could have
been there. Sure. And if I had been there, I'm
sure that God would have met me there. Sure.
As I experienced in my time there, that where
God was very present there. Yeah. But, yeah,
so the joy for me is to say, oh, my gosh, look
at me. I'm a broken human being. And God has
poured his grace on me throughout my life. And
I can give examples of that. And I just share
that with people. And that's joyful. Yeah. For
sure. The joyful part of witnessing is that it
makes me feel good within me because it's a privilege
to witness to other people. And it's a great
rewarding for the kingdom of God, bringing the
vulnerable individual to Christ. During my routine
rounds at the hospital doing spiritual care,
most patients, they call me sunshine, you know,
because they said I bring something good to them,
you know. Not merely talking about the Bible,
but the way I approach the individuals, you know,
because some of the patients, they don't have
family to visit them. And, you know, They are
just lying there, so they need somebody to uplift
them. So I always do the best I can to actively
listen to their story, you know. Because a lot
of things are happening around the world that
a lot of stress contributes to a lot of sicknesses
that people encounter in life. I thank God for
my life to be part of the instrument that God
is using for people, you know, to encourage and
uplift them. Yeah. Yeah. So just like it. It's
encouraging to us as we get to encourage other
people and walk with them. Yeah, for sure. So
I think I want us to end on a sort of practical,
like, what do we do with all of this? What are
some tips? What's some encouragement that we
might offer to people who are feeling like, you
know what? That sounds okay. That still sounds
scary, though. Like, what do I do with this?
So I think the first thing that comes to mind
for me is we talked about in the challenges how
we don't know how other people are going to react.
And sometimes it might be with aggression or
with indifference or whatever. And I think that
that's definitely true. I think we need to be
careful not to like over inflate that, though.
Like, I think we need to be able to say, yeah,
some people will react that way. But. In my experience,
and maybe my experience is just particular, but
like in my experience, most people aren't aggressive
about it. Right. They're maybe not enthusiastic
about it. They're not like, oh, wow, tell me
more. But they're not going to be like grumpy
about it. Yeah. And I think especially. if we
start with relationship, like you was talking
about, right? Like if, if we talk about faith
in the context of building trust and of sharing
love, if someone knows that we have their best
interest in mind, rather than random stranger
on the street, random stranger on the street
might be grumpy about it because we just interrupted
whatever they were doing. But if we're doing
this from a context of relationship and love,
then like, I think most people. are willing to
hear us out even if they don't change their mind
about it they're willing to sort of let us share
so i think that relationship is really important
and having some level of optimism i think we
have to earn the right to do this yeah and we
do that through building a relationship with
them yeah yeah for sure so prayer is the key
you know you pray and ask holy spirit to intervene
and uh in what you're going to say and you have
to be humble you know be like christ the way
he was kind and compassionate towards others
and um Not to be judgmental, you know. Sure,
sure. And you set boundaries, you know. There
is some rules that you have to follow. So don't
be too pushy, pushy. Yeah. Yeah, it goes back
to, again, what Hugh had said earlier about respecting
each person's integrity, respecting their free
will, not... driving the argument too hard. And
yeah, I think prayer is a super important place
to start praying for yourself, that God would
give you the words, God would give you that sense
of peace and confidence, but also praying for
the other person. We're all, you know, every
human being is searching, whether they are really
fully recognizing that or not. You know what
Pascal used to say, you know, In every human
being, there's a God -shaped vacuum. And so everybody
has a God -shaped vacuum. And our responsibility
is to try to fill that vacuum. where they're
at as human beings. We may just be pouring a
cup and the other person will pour another cup
and somebody might pour a gallon. But that rod
-shaped vacuum will be filled, if not by us,
by someone else. We're part of the process. For
sure, for sure. Yeah, what would you add, Amavo?
Any practical advice or encouragement? Yeah,
I would say one, Be unapologetically Christian.
Stand by your beliefs. Stand by what you, you
know, stand by the word. And I think what the
thing is to understand is it's okay if people
don't accept that you're Christian. It's okay
if people don't accept Christ. It's okay if they
don't have a good reaction, you know. At the
end of the day, God is always with us. Jesus
is always with us. And always remember, we always
have our community. Yeah. We always have, you
know, even if you're the only Christian in the
family. Yeah. It's like, you know, go to your
life group. Go to church on Sunday. Meet up with
fellow Christians. Keep each other in, you know,
like help each other and support each other.
Because even if your blood family don't have
your back or they're not following Jesus, you
know, we all have brothers and sisters in Christ.
Yeah. Yeah. So lean on each other. Know that
as we're sharing our faith, even if we're alone
in that moment, we're not doing it alone. Right.
We have people who have our back. We have that
seed that we're planting that someone else will
water. Yes. Right. Yeah. And everyone is created.
Everybody's created in God's image. So whether
they believe what you believe, they're still
created in God's image. So our responsibility
is to respond to the God in them. Yeah. I think
you had a Bible verse you wanted to end this
with. I just want to end with Acts 1 .8, which
says, But you will receive power when the Holy
Spirit comes on you. And you will be my witness
in Jerusalem and in Judea and Samaria and to
the ends of the earth. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
So that, that remember the reminder that it comes
with God's power, that we don't do this work
on our own. And that all of these spiritual practices
that we've been talking about for the past number
of weeks. Feed us in such a way that allow us
to go out and share our faith with other people.
Right. Like if you're not in prayer and scripture
and community, and if you're not intentionally
spending time with God, you're not going to be
a good witness. Right. And so building our life
first. Founded in Christ, founded in these, all
of these practices so that we can go out and
share the good news of Christ with other people.
Yeah. So thank you so much, folks. And thank
you for tuning in to this week's episode of Trinity
Talks. I pray that you find your foundation in
Christ, that you are able to find ways to then
share that faith with the people who are around
you, whether that is in your words or your actions
or just in simple acts of light and love. And
we will see you again next week.