WEBVTT 00:00:03.819 --> 00:00:06.080 Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:09.619 of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I am joined 00:00:09.619 --> 00:00:12.599 here by two folks who are members of our congregation 00:00:12.599 --> 00:00:15.119 here at Trinity. And we're going to talk a little 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.219 bit more about race and faith and Black history 00:00:19.219 --> 00:00:22.079 and just like what it is like to sort of be people 00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:25.379 of color in the midst of a multicultural church. 00:00:25.379 --> 00:00:28.420 So thank you for joining me, folks. Happy to 00:00:28.420 --> 00:00:30.600 be here. Yes. Happy Black History Month. Yes. 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:34.079 Yeah, so maybe we'll get started, do a little 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:35.920 bit of introduction. So Jen, do you want to start 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:39.140 us off here? Sure. My name is Jen Agard. I've 00:00:39.140 --> 00:00:42.479 been going to Trinity for 29 years. My parents 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:46.159 are from Barbados. They met and married in England 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:48.619 and I was born in England. I came to Canada when 00:00:48.619 --> 00:00:50.880 I was three. Okay. So I'm pretty much Canadian. 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:53.979 Yes. Okay. You know, I always thought that you 00:00:53.979 --> 00:00:56.820 were born in Barbados and then went to England. 00:00:57.079 --> 00:00:59.500 Ah, okay. Well, there you go. Learn something 00:00:59.500 --> 00:01:03.060 new every day. Yes. Okay. And my name's Curlin 00:01:03.060 --> 00:01:06.260 McLean. You'll probably recognize me for making 00:01:06.260 --> 00:01:08.609 all the noise in there. back there playing the 00:01:08.609 --> 00:01:11.730 drums. I was born in the island of St. Vincent, 00:01:11.870 --> 00:01:16.010 and St. Vincent is across the street from Barbados, 00:01:16.049 --> 00:01:19.569 actually. If you look at the map, and you'll 00:01:19.569 --> 00:01:21.390 see that all the islands in the Caribbean go 00:01:21.390 --> 00:01:24.010 in an arc, and Barbados, they're special, they 00:01:24.010 --> 00:01:26.230 stick out by themselves. And if you look directly 00:01:26.230 --> 00:01:28.010 across from Barbados, you'll see St. Vincent 00:01:28.010 --> 00:01:32.590 right there. And I used to go to, when I was 00:01:32.590 --> 00:01:36.170 a kid, I went to a Methodist church in St. Vincent. 00:01:36.650 --> 00:01:40.390 And the church, it's an old, I wouldn't be surprised 00:01:40.390 --> 00:01:42.909 if that church was built in the 1800s. Okay, 00:01:42.909 --> 00:01:46.849 wow. And my memories of going to that church 00:01:46.849 --> 00:01:49.870 as a kid, I was 11 years old when I came to Canada. 00:01:50.030 --> 00:01:56.469 Sure. It was just about 30 years ago. What I 00:01:56.469 --> 00:01:58.310 remembered most about the church is that we used 00:01:58.310 --> 00:02:01.769 to have an event called Harvest around October, 00:02:01.890 --> 00:02:05.390 November. you know the kids in the church would 00:02:05.390 --> 00:02:08.509 participate in the harvest event we'd have to 00:02:08.509 --> 00:02:12.310 memorize scripture or read a poem or something 00:02:12.310 --> 00:02:16.229 like that and there was always music music music 00:02:16.229 --> 00:02:19.229 music everywhere it's always vibrant music in 00:02:19.229 --> 00:02:21.590 the church and that was one of the things that 00:02:21.590 --> 00:02:25.210 i brought from the caribbean with me here to 00:02:25.210 --> 00:02:28.819 further my faith journey here so it's So people 00:02:28.819 --> 00:02:31.419 from Vincent are called Vincentians or Vincy 00:02:31.419 --> 00:02:38.099 for short. And yeah, so my journey is the Vincy 00:02:38.099 --> 00:02:40.300 journey, the Vincy experience and the Caribbean, 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:43.340 sorry, and the Canadian journey afterwards. Okay, 00:02:43.340 --> 00:02:47.580 very cool. Yeah. So are there any ways that you 00:02:47.580 --> 00:02:49.919 think, like, I guess you've already sort of brought 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:51.500 us into this a little bit, Carolyn, like that 00:02:51.500 --> 00:02:54.139 your race or your like cultural background have 00:02:54.139 --> 00:02:57.340 impacted the way that you. believe or the way 00:02:57.340 --> 00:03:02.020 that you practice your faith um yeah it's been 00:03:02.020 --> 00:03:05.360 well i mentioned the the harvest harvest was 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:10.159 the big community thing for for us and and what 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:14.240 i see here at trinity well when i started coming 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:16.840 to trinity i came i came here i think in like 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:22.479 1994 i'm aging myself uh back in 1994 and um 00:03:23.500 --> 00:03:25.960 It just kind of grew from there. The church kind 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:30.219 of grew from there culturally, I find. I find 00:03:30.219 --> 00:03:32.520 that there's a lot more different. It's a lot 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:35.919 more diverse now than it was back in 1994. There's 00:03:35.919 --> 00:03:43.120 more cultures. But what I see is that the harvest 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:45.639 and the community spirit that we have here at 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:48.219 Trinity is what I look forward to most. Yeah, 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:51.900 yeah, yeah, for sure. So I grew up at St. Brad's 00:03:51.900 --> 00:03:55.719 Church. Okay. Which was, there were a few Caribbean 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:58.360 families there. It was predominantly white. But 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:01.780 my mother exposed us to a lot. Like I joined 00:04:01.780 --> 00:04:04.840 youth group. And I was pretty much the only kid 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.159 of color in youth group. Okay. But I never felt 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:10.199 that I was any different than anybody else. We 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:11.740 had different events that would happen. My mom 00:04:11.740 --> 00:04:14.919 sang in the choir. And they did actually give 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:17.939 us an opportunity to have like an evening of 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:21.199 diversity where we would sort of. introduce our 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.720 Caribbean roots to them. I wouldn't say that 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:28.519 my Caribbean roots really were any different 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:30.639 than what I was experiencing at St. Bride's. 00:04:31.019 --> 00:04:34.040 Because my parents, the foundation of Christianity 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:38.920 was how we were raised. And in our home, it wasn't 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:40.899 like we prayed together or we read scripture 00:04:40.899 --> 00:04:43.339 together. We did watch Billy Graham. That was 00:04:43.339 --> 00:04:45.079 a staple in our house. Every Sunday we had to 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:47.060 watch Billy Graham. There was no talking when 00:04:47.060 --> 00:04:51.470 that was happening. And as far as coming to Trinity, 00:04:51.709 --> 00:04:53.509 I don't think there is any difference. The only 00:04:53.509 --> 00:04:55.829 big difference is what Carolyn mentioned is diversity. 00:04:56.089 --> 00:04:58.529 Right. The huge amount of diversity that is here 00:04:58.529 --> 00:05:01.490 at Trinity as compared to St. Bride's. Right. 00:05:01.629 --> 00:05:03.490 But I mean, I had a really good experience at 00:05:03.490 --> 00:05:05.490 St. Bride's being in youth groups singing. I 00:05:05.490 --> 00:05:07.110 sang in a folk group. That's when I first started 00:05:07.110 --> 00:05:09.949 singing. My mom sang in the choir. So eventually 00:05:09.949 --> 00:05:13.810 she made me sing in the choir. Sure. But yeah, 00:05:14.149 --> 00:05:15.569 I don't think there was really any difference. 00:05:15.750 --> 00:05:19.959 Okay. I felt the same too. There was a bit of 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:23.379 a difference for me. When we came to Canada, 00:05:23.540 --> 00:05:26.339 my mom didn't come. She was Anglican, and that 00:05:26.339 --> 00:05:29.279 was baptized Methodist. To be honest, I don't 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.800 even know what Methodist is. But anyhow, when 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.000 we were living in Don Mills, and she found an 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.509 Anglican church across the street. sort of across 00:05:37.509 --> 00:05:39.189 us, but we had to walk a bit of a distance to 00:05:39.189 --> 00:05:41.430 get there. And she sent me and my younger brother 00:05:41.430 --> 00:05:44.509 to this Anglican church. And when we went, we 00:05:44.509 --> 00:05:47.129 had to dress in suit and tie every Sunday. And 00:05:47.129 --> 00:05:49.910 same in St. Vincent. When I lived in St. Vincent, 00:05:49.970 --> 00:05:54.389 we always went to church. Church for us in St. 00:05:54.410 --> 00:05:56.829 Vincent, we had the whole family was there in 00:05:56.829 --> 00:05:59.410 the morning. And then in the afternoon, the kids 00:05:59.410 --> 00:06:00.910 would go back for Sunday school. So it wasn't 00:06:00.910 --> 00:06:03.930 incorporated. It was a whole day event. Then 00:06:03.930 --> 00:06:08.709 when I left, my parents in Pickering and moved 00:06:08.709 --> 00:06:11.629 to Mississauga, I was in search of a church because 00:06:11.629 --> 00:06:15.930 my mother was shoving the Anglican church on 00:06:15.930 --> 00:06:19.329 me. She wasn't really shoving it on me, but I 00:06:19.329 --> 00:06:24.269 appreciate it. That's it. I started searching 00:06:24.269 --> 00:06:26.509 for a church and I landed here. This was the 00:06:26.509 --> 00:06:28.250 first church that I found and it's the only church 00:06:28.250 --> 00:06:30.069 that I've ever explored. I've been to other churches, 00:06:30.110 --> 00:06:32.230 but this is the only church that I stayed at. 00:06:32.970 --> 00:06:35.649 It was the first one that I found and came here. 00:06:35.689 --> 00:06:39.329 And I came dressed in suit and tie. And I looked 00:06:39.329 --> 00:06:41.990 around and everyone else was wearing just casual. 00:06:42.110 --> 00:06:44.089 And I came the second time and I dressed in suit 00:06:44.089 --> 00:06:46.529 and tie again. I looked around. It was so different 00:06:46.529 --> 00:06:51.009 from what I was accustomed to. Back in St. Vincent 00:06:51.009 --> 00:06:54.250 and going to the Anglican Church out in Don Mills. 00:06:55.019 --> 00:06:56.680 And then after that, I just started dressing 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:58.920 casually like everyone else. But I would say 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:00.939 that's more of a cultural thing because in the 00:07:00.939 --> 00:07:03.720 West Indies, because at St. Bride's, we always 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:06.660 dressed up. But the whole church did. Sure. So 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:09.680 coming to Trinity, it was like that when I first 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:12.639 came. But then I noticed that it became more 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:15.779 casual. And I think that was more to introduce 00:07:15.779 --> 00:07:18.959 other people into the church who may not be able 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:21.550 to dress. you know? Sure. The way we grew up, 00:07:21.550 --> 00:07:23.649 we had Sunday school clothes that were just for 00:07:23.649 --> 00:07:25.170 Sunday school. That's right. Yes. That was our 00:07:25.170 --> 00:07:27.209 respect for the church. And it's not to say that 00:07:27.209 --> 00:07:29.410 people don't dress, but that's just the way that. 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:31.959 you know, Caribbean, I guess black people are 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:34.300 when it comes to church, it's someplace that 00:07:34.300 --> 00:07:36.660 is respected and honored. So you dress that way. 00:07:36.740 --> 00:07:39.259 Sure. So a lot of people still in this church, 00:07:39.300 --> 00:07:40.899 I see there are still people that dress that 00:07:40.899 --> 00:07:44.040 way. Yeah. And they may not understand when they 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:45.920 see other people that are not dressed that way. 00:07:45.939 --> 00:07:48.160 And that's where it comes from. It's not necessarily, 00:07:48.259 --> 00:07:50.399 it's not a judgment. It's just a cultural thing. 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:52.040 Sure. Where when you go to church, you dress 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:55.139 properly, right? Or what's considered proper. 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:57.930 Right. By dressing up. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm 00:07:57.930 --> 00:08:00.529 wearing jeans today, which I rarely do because 00:08:00.529 --> 00:08:02.410 it's still in the back of my mind that I have 00:08:02.410 --> 00:08:05.370 to dress properly. But today is not one off for 00:08:05.370 --> 00:08:07.790 me. Well, they're black jeans, so they're a little 00:08:07.790 --> 00:08:10.209 nicer, right? It didn't matter. I remember asking 00:08:10.209 --> 00:08:13.110 once if I could wear jeans or cords to church, 00:08:13.189 --> 00:08:15.569 and my mother just stared at me like I had two 00:08:15.569 --> 00:08:18.949 heads. You're never allowed to mix the two together. 00:08:19.029 --> 00:08:21.709 They're separate. When you come to church, you 00:08:21.709 --> 00:08:23.889 honor church by dressing appropriately. Okay. 00:08:23.889 --> 00:08:30.480 Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. yeah um so when 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:32.919 you think about maybe it's culture maybe it's 00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:36.960 race like are there ways that that those aspects 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:39.980 of your identity have like created challenges 00:08:39.980 --> 00:08:43.259 or have created like moments of joy as you mix 00:08:43.259 --> 00:08:46.080 you know like your cultural and racial identity 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.980 with your like faith identity I think the only 00:08:48.980 --> 00:08:51.279 challenge for me growing up was I never saw anyone 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:54.320 in leadership that looked like me. I'm staying 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:55.759 in the choir, but I wouldn't say that was really 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:57.740 leadership. Sure. There was nobody like in the 00:08:57.740 --> 00:09:00.279 pulpit. No, there was no one in the pulpit. And 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:04.139 there were maybe a few groups, volunteer groups, 00:09:04.220 --> 00:09:06.620 but still in those groups, you never saw anyone 00:09:06.620 --> 00:09:09.299 that was different. And I think even now when 00:09:09.299 --> 00:09:11.120 we're looking at diversity here at Trinity and 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:13.299 we're trying to engage people, when it comes 00:09:13.299 --> 00:09:14.779 to black people, I think that's what part of 00:09:14.779 --> 00:09:18.200 it is, is that. never saw that before. So, you 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:20.120 know, why now are they interested in having me 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:22.480 join this group? But it's nice to see that people 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:25.200 are starting to do it, which is great. But that's 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:26.860 probably where it comes from. That would be the 00:09:26.860 --> 00:09:28.980 only challenge for me at that time. I don't find 00:09:28.980 --> 00:09:31.720 that challenge here anymore because I've had 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:34.240 the opportunity to be involved in a lot of different 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:37.440 ministries and some leadership, some, you know, 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:39.639 all volunteer, but some leadership, some just 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:43.389 walking alongside. So that's been. a joy rather 00:09:43.389 --> 00:09:45.669 than a challenge. Sure. But that would be the 00:09:45.669 --> 00:09:47.669 only challenge that, you know, just knowing that 00:09:47.669 --> 00:09:50.230 from my past and not being sure whether, you 00:09:50.230 --> 00:09:52.409 know, can I actually do that? Am I okay to do 00:09:52.409 --> 00:09:55.429 that? Right. But watching Trinity over the years, 00:09:55.529 --> 00:09:58.129 it's evolved quite a bit. Sure. Where it's opened 00:09:58.129 --> 00:10:01.049 the doors to allow anybody to do anything. Yeah. 00:10:01.090 --> 00:10:03.929 Yeah. So that's really positive. For sure. Yeah. 00:10:03.929 --> 00:10:07.080 And like you were serving as like a warden. for 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:08.720 our church for a while. So like, that was like 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:11.419 one of like the, the top three sort of leadership 00:10:11.419 --> 00:10:15.019 roles, kind of, kind of in the church. And so 00:10:15.019 --> 00:10:17.379 like, yeah, in some ways I think you're like 00:10:17.379 --> 00:10:19.639 blazing a path so people can like look at that. 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:22.480 That's true. That's true. Jen did that. So like 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:24.580 I can do that. Well, and that's what I hope. 00:10:24.659 --> 00:10:26.259 Yeah. Because there are a lot of people that 00:10:26.259 --> 00:10:28.500 want to do a lot of things and they don't necessarily 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:30.879 want to be involved because they're not sure. 00:10:31.059 --> 00:10:34.470 Yeah. And sometimes. They look to me to be the 00:10:34.470 --> 00:10:36.350 person involved and I try to encourage people. 00:10:36.529 --> 00:10:38.230 Now you get involved and I see that there are 00:10:38.230 --> 00:10:39.549 a lot of people getting involved in different 00:10:39.549 --> 00:10:42.070 things, you know, that, you know, that are not 00:10:42.070 --> 00:10:44.629 actually in the forefront, but still, I think 00:10:44.629 --> 00:10:47.889 it's a slow progression to that. Yeah, for sure. 00:10:48.250 --> 00:10:51.610 And similar to Jen, I was able to participate 00:10:51.610 --> 00:10:55.789 in some of the. The activities here at the church. 00:10:55.870 --> 00:10:59.149 I was a deputy warden, if you want to call it 00:10:59.149 --> 00:11:02.690 that, or advisory. I was on the advisory committee 00:11:02.690 --> 00:11:05.490 on the Trinity as well. But I started playing 00:11:05.490 --> 00:11:09.850 with the worship team here in 2008, I think it 00:11:09.850 --> 00:11:13.570 was. And I actually never saw myself up there 00:11:13.570 --> 00:11:17.450 up front. At one point, I was actually assisting 00:11:17.450 --> 00:11:20.309 with leading worship up there. And I never saw 00:11:20.309 --> 00:11:24.389 myself in that capacity at this church. I was 00:11:24.389 --> 00:11:28.190 given that opportunity in my professional career. 00:11:28.389 --> 00:11:32.049 I did experience this is external to the church. 00:11:32.110 --> 00:11:37.350 I did experience a challenging time where I was 00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:39.710 a police officer and I was pretty much forced 00:11:39.710 --> 00:11:41.809 out of the police service because of racial discrimination. 00:11:41.909 --> 00:11:44.370 We won't get into all the dirty details of that. 00:11:44.470 --> 00:11:49.070 But when we come to church and when I come to 00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:53.480 church and. I bring that weight of me as a Black 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:58.080 person with that challenge of navigating what 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:03.320 was supposed to be me helping enforce justice 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:07.840 out there in the community and navigating around 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:10.500 the injustices of the racial discrimination that 00:12:10.500 --> 00:12:12.639 I experienced in the police service. And when 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:14.700 we come into the church, I bring that weight 00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:18.419 with me into the sanctuary. And some people don't. 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:23.559 We all come into the church for different reasons. 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.539 And sometimes some of my friends who don't go 00:12:26.539 --> 00:12:30.679 to church or are non -believers, why do you go 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.940 to church? Well, I still need my spiritual nourishment. 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.779 That's why I come in. But not everybody comes 00:12:36.779 --> 00:12:41.179 in sharing the same. experience that I endured. 00:12:41.779 --> 00:12:45.539 And so when we walk in, you don't know what's 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:48.600 Curlin carrying today. When he goes up for communion, 00:12:48.860 --> 00:12:50.899 what's he carrying with him? When we're in the 00:12:50.899 --> 00:12:54.419 moment of prayer, what's he praying for? What's 00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:57.740 so heavy on his heart? What's so heavy on Jen's 00:12:57.740 --> 00:13:00.879 heart today that we need to pray for? Sure. You 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:05.299 never know what we're carrying, what we're experiencing. 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:07.899 And on that, I think that a lot of people don't 00:13:07.899 --> 00:13:11.039 believe that we that we experience racism now. 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:14.919 They believe that, oh, you know, it doesn't happen 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:17.519 here or, you know, even in the States, people 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:19.360 don't believe that some of the stuff that's going 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.620 on is real. Yeah. And and I think what Kerlin 00:13:22.620 --> 00:13:25.200 is saying, what I feel, too, is that sometimes 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:28.009 people need to. to think about what it's like 00:13:28.009 --> 00:13:30.570 to walk in our shoes because I experienced that 00:13:30.570 --> 00:13:33.590 in my, in my workplace too. And that was in 2018. 00:13:33.929 --> 00:13:36.129 Right. And people still experience it today. 00:13:36.470 --> 00:13:38.950 And, and it's not to say that, you know, the 00:13:38.950 --> 00:13:41.049 church is kind of the sanctuary. It's a place 00:13:41.049 --> 00:13:45.309 where we can bring that to God. But I, I also 00:13:45.309 --> 00:13:47.669 think that we can't forget that it happens everywhere, 00:13:47.750 --> 00:13:49.649 like even in a church. And I'm not saying Trinity, 00:13:49.690 --> 00:13:53.259 but I, when I was. asked to do this, I was talking 00:13:53.259 --> 00:13:55.360 to a couple about what I was going to do. And 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:58.059 they mentioned that maybe five to 10 years ago, 00:13:58.100 --> 00:13:59.679 they were in a church where they sat in a pew 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:02.179 by themselves, even during the holidays when 00:14:02.179 --> 00:14:04.200 it was packed, nobody would sit in their pew 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.740 because they were the only people of color in 00:14:06.740 --> 00:14:09.039 their church. And that's disappointing, but it's 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:10.820 real. And I think that people need to recognize 00:14:10.820 --> 00:14:13.059 that this is real. This is not something that 00:14:13.059 --> 00:14:15.200 just happens or that we just believe in our minds. 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.039 We actually experienced it. But it's nice to 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.399 know that you can come to a church where There's 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.899 so much diversity and everybody respects everyone 00:14:22.899 --> 00:14:25.519 and everyone is so welcoming. And I think that's 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:27.340 why we have so many people coming to Trinity. 00:14:27.539 --> 00:14:29.320 It's because they feel welcome. They look around 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:32.139 and they see that. And they now see everybody 00:14:32.139 --> 00:14:34.159 up on the pulpit doing different things, whether 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:36.259 it's worship, whether they're reading scripture 00:14:36.259 --> 00:14:40.360 or praying or serving or welcoming, whatever 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:44.379 it is. Everybody's there. Everybody's there. 00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:48.379 Not to belabor Jen's point, but it's really, 00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:52.200 really heartbreaking when I'm talking to somebody 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:55.340 who's white, for example, and you tell them about 00:14:55.340 --> 00:14:57.759 some of the things that we experienced. And as 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.379 Jen said, they would respond with, that doesn't 00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:04.220 really happen. And it's really, really heartbreaking. 00:15:05.220 --> 00:15:09.279 I was really, I think it was September when Charlie 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.879 Kirk was shot and killed. I absolutely don't 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:17.580 condone violence in any form, sort or shape or 00:15:17.580 --> 00:15:22.039 form. But when that event happened, I was surprised 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:25.600 to find that some people actually from this church 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:29.840 was posting on social media their sorrow and 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:32.860 their support for Charlie Kirk in a way. Yes, 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:36.860 grieve for Charlie Kirk that he was violently 00:15:36.860 --> 00:15:39.519 killed, but they supported him in a way that 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.580 was deplorable. Because Charlie Kirk had made 00:15:43.580 --> 00:15:46.039 some really, really disparaging comments about 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:47.820 black people. Actually, I think I've made a couple 00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:50.360 of notes about what he had said. One of the things 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:57.879 what he had said was Joy Reid was a TV reporter. 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:01.379 Joy Reid, Ketanji Brown Jackson, the Supreme 00:16:01.379 --> 00:16:05.379 Court Justice and Michelle Obama. They stole 00:16:05.379 --> 00:16:08.220 white people's jobs because they did. And they 00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:09.879 shouldn't have because they don't have the brain 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.700 capacity to be in those roles. I think it was 00:16:12.700 --> 00:16:16.399 something to that effect. He also said something 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:20.200 about, if I see a white pilot at the airport, 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:26.159 I have to stop and wonder if he's a diversity 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:29.840 hire and if he's properly qualified to fly the 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.679 plane. But he wouldn't say that about somebody 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:37.730 who's white. Really broke my heart to see people 00:16:37.730 --> 00:16:42.049 who I thought were my friends support that ideology. 00:16:42.549 --> 00:16:45.710 Sure. I think in that case, and I'm not making 00:16:45.710 --> 00:16:48.149 excuses, I think people have a hard time separating. 00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:52.169 Sure. You know, what that person is from the 00:16:52.169 --> 00:16:55.350 fact that they are, you know, yes, they've lost 00:16:55.350 --> 00:16:57.289 their lives and that's understandable. But I 00:16:57.289 --> 00:17:01.830 think sometimes. They may be separating the fact 00:17:01.830 --> 00:17:03.610 and thinking, oh, you know, but he's still a 00:17:03.610 --> 00:17:05.569 person. And yes, he is still a person. But you 00:17:05.569 --> 00:17:08.109 can't, as Carly was saying, you can't forget 00:17:08.109 --> 00:17:11.150 where he was coming from. And it's hard for us 00:17:11.150 --> 00:17:13.210 to feel, you feel sorrow because you don't want 00:17:13.210 --> 00:17:15.470 anyone to be hurt ever. I don't want to do violence 00:17:15.470 --> 00:17:18.029 either. But be real about who the person is. 00:17:18.190 --> 00:17:20.390 You know, don't try to hide behind it because 00:17:20.390 --> 00:17:22.730 he lost his life. It's unfortunate he lost his 00:17:22.730 --> 00:17:25.210 life. But the type of person he was was not a 00:17:25.210 --> 00:17:27.250 good person. Right. And didn't care for people 00:17:27.250 --> 00:17:29.650 like myself and Carolyn. Right. And other diverse 00:17:29.650 --> 00:17:32.150 people in the world. Right. So it is hurtful. 00:17:32.509 --> 00:17:35.049 And you can't really talk about it because then 00:17:35.049 --> 00:17:38.230 your loved one is being angry because black people 00:17:38.230 --> 00:17:41.789 are angry, apparently. And we're not angry. We 00:17:41.789 --> 00:17:44.130 just want justice like anybody else does. Not 00:17:44.130 --> 00:17:46.690 that that's justice, but in terms of understanding 00:17:46.690 --> 00:17:49.210 what we go through and what's said about us and 00:17:49.210 --> 00:17:51.789 how we perceive those things and how we feel 00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:54.369 when we hear those things. For sure. Yeah. And 00:17:54.369 --> 00:17:57.990 just figuring out how do we hold sorrow for the 00:17:57.990 --> 00:18:01.740 loss of a life and also. sorrow for the damage 00:18:01.740 --> 00:18:05.799 that that life did yes right like it's yeah and 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:08.099 Jen might feel differently about this but when 00:18:08.099 --> 00:18:10.779 I saw that uh people who I associate with or 00:18:10.779 --> 00:18:13.839 associated with were posting those types of comments 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.740 yeah and I reflected on it and I thought there 00:18:17.740 --> 00:18:22.559 there's that's their view and I thought that 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:25.579 I should have taken an opportunity to um because 00:18:25.579 --> 00:18:28.180 they don't believe that These things actually 00:18:28.180 --> 00:18:30.440 happened to us. Sure. And I should have taken 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.059 that opportunity to sort of correct them and 00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:35.960 say, like, we actually really do experience these 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:40.480 things. And but I didn't. I just left it alone. 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:43.740 And sometimes I think you have to you needed 00:18:43.740 --> 00:18:46.359 a chance to step back, though, and look at it 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:48.319 and determine how do I want to respond to it? 00:18:48.339 --> 00:18:50.539 Because sometimes when you see things like that, 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:52.519 you initially want to respond in a way that may 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:55.980 not be, you know, correct. And you don't it's 00:18:55.980 --> 00:18:58.319 not about. having a debate back and forth is 00:18:58.319 --> 00:18:59.920 about trying to understand each other and where 00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:02.880 we're coming from yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.700 i think there's a lot of moments where we ask 00:19:04.700 --> 00:19:06.539 ourselves okay what what is the right thing for 00:19:06.539 --> 00:19:08.660 me to do here right and like sometimes it is 00:19:08.660 --> 00:19:11.220 to engage and sometimes that's just like not 00:19:11.220 --> 00:19:13.759 the work i can do today yeah and it depends on 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:15.059 the people that you're dealing with because if 00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:16.819 they're not going to be open to hearing it right 00:19:16.819 --> 00:19:18.980 then why are you wasting your breath to say anything 00:19:18.980 --> 00:19:21.599 you just understand you appreciate that they're 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:24.339 letting you know where they stand yeah and i 00:19:24.339 --> 00:19:26.599 appreciate that more than anything i know where 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:31.019 you stand now so yeah yeah so like when you think 00:19:31.019 --> 00:19:34.700 about bringing all of these experiences into 00:19:34.700 --> 00:19:39.119 the church like has church felt like a place 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.759 where you can like do that well and like be able 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:43.599 to like come together and like share some of 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:47.569 that that sorrow and that heaviness I mentioned 00:19:47.569 --> 00:19:53.349 my police career. Back in 2000, I had a very 00:19:53.349 --> 00:19:57.849 dramatic incident that happened with me at work. 00:19:58.450 --> 00:20:03.210 And around that time, we were meeting at Hazel 00:20:03.210 --> 00:20:06.529 McAllen Public School. The event happened on 00:20:06.529 --> 00:20:10.170 the Friday, and I went to church on the Sunday, 00:20:10.269 --> 00:20:13.890 and I was just sitting there in the pew. I think 00:20:13.890 --> 00:20:17.710 it was Diane Toyson and Dave and Harold Percy 00:20:17.710 --> 00:20:19.869 was the pastor at the time. And they actually 00:20:19.869 --> 00:20:24.789 came and grabbed me out of the pew and took me 00:20:24.789 --> 00:20:27.970 into a room. They had heard about what had happened. 00:20:28.109 --> 00:20:31.009 Yeah. And they prayed for me. Yeah. I didn't 00:20:31.009 --> 00:20:33.230 know that they were aware, but it was coming 00:20:33.230 --> 00:20:38.130 into the church and having the community pray 00:20:38.130 --> 00:20:41.400 for me in such a way that was really like. They're 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:45.480 here for me. They knew what happened and they 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:49.740 came and they got me. And that's what I see in 00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:55.079 Trinity, that this whole community of diverse 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.079 people are all coming together and sharing together, 00:20:58.299 --> 00:21:01.519 much like when I was in St. Vincent and we had 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.430 our harvest. in October or November, whenever 00:21:04.430 --> 00:21:07.150 it was. And that whole community came together 00:21:07.150 --> 00:21:09.750 and there was, you know, there was joy, there 00:21:09.750 --> 00:21:12.490 was music, there was, you know. But that's what 00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:16.210 I appreciated was that the community was there 00:21:16.210 --> 00:21:18.630 to support me. And that's what I appreciate about 00:21:18.630 --> 00:21:21.289 the fact that I was accepted into a Trinity. 00:21:21.509 --> 00:21:24.069 Yeah, it's intentional fellowship. You know, 00:21:24.089 --> 00:21:26.349 it's, yes, we have culture, we have diversity, 00:21:26.430 --> 00:21:28.869 but at the end of the day, we have a church community. 00:21:29.029 --> 00:21:32.690 And to me, For example, my faith doesn't have 00:21:32.690 --> 00:21:35.009 a color. My faith is about my relationship with 00:21:35.009 --> 00:21:38.109 Christ. It's not because I'm black. My relationship 00:21:38.109 --> 00:21:41.349 with Christ is different. Everybody's faith is 00:21:41.349 --> 00:21:45.410 different. That I agree with. But having a relationship 00:21:45.410 --> 00:21:48.230 with Christ is not about the color of your skin 00:21:48.230 --> 00:21:50.089 or the culture or diversity that you belong to. 00:21:50.250 --> 00:21:52.289 It's that relationship that you have with Christ. 00:21:52.430 --> 00:21:56.009 And that goes into the community and fellowship 00:21:56.009 --> 00:21:58.789 as well. It's not about... the color of anyone's 00:21:58.789 --> 00:22:00.890 skin. It's about what is that person going through? 00:22:01.190 --> 00:22:03.150 Let's pray with that person. It's not about, 00:22:03.210 --> 00:22:05.650 well, is it okay because they're different? It 00:22:05.650 --> 00:22:07.430 doesn't happen here at Trinity. Everybody cares 00:22:07.430 --> 00:22:10.109 about everyone. I mean, and it's not to say that, 00:22:10.109 --> 00:22:11.730 yeah, you may have people in the church that 00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:13.730 may not agree with that, but that really doesn't 00:22:13.730 --> 00:22:16.150 matter because God's working on those people, 00:22:16.250 --> 00:22:20.569 right? So we're focused as a community to care 00:22:20.569 --> 00:22:23.650 for each other and help each other and acknowledge 00:22:23.650 --> 00:22:27.990 each other and see each other. that's the most 00:22:27.990 --> 00:22:29.750 important thing is that we see each other. And 00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:31.829 I think at Trinity, we do that. Yeah. We see 00:22:31.829 --> 00:22:35.809 each other. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So are 00:22:35.809 --> 00:22:37.930 there things, I know we've sort of talked a little 00:22:37.930 --> 00:22:39.490 bit about this, but are you thinking, are there 00:22:39.490 --> 00:22:42.289 things that you wish like more people understood 00:22:42.289 --> 00:22:45.970 about like black people's experiences of faith 00:22:45.970 --> 00:22:50.569 or of church? I know we already talked about 00:22:50.569 --> 00:22:54.809 this, but as far as the way that we dress. Yeah. 00:22:54.869 --> 00:22:58.099 No, like. As casual as Trinity is, I can tell 00:22:58.099 --> 00:22:59.640 you there are a lot of Caribbean people who are 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:01.980 not going to dress casual. Sure. Because it's 00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:05.200 ingrained in their mind, as Carolyn said, that 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:08.940 this is the way. Sure. But it's not to put anybody 00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:10.740 else down. They're just like that. And if you 00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:12.339 do have someone say something, it's just because 00:23:12.339 --> 00:23:15.339 it's ingrained in them. Sure. That's how you 00:23:15.339 --> 00:23:17.460 dress for church. Yep. And the other thing, too, 00:23:17.539 --> 00:23:20.079 is we move when we worship. Like, I can't stay 00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:22.779 still when music is going on. I have to move. 00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:25.799 And, you know, sometimes... Sometimes I'm the 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:29.059 only one moving. Sure. But I don't. It's just 00:23:29.059 --> 00:23:31.019 who we are. Because if you ever go to the islands, 00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:32.799 people do not stay still when they're worshiping. 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:34.640 Sure. They don't. If you go to a Pentecostal 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:36.799 church, they definitely don't stay still. My 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.220 sister -in -law came here. We had the Toronto 00:23:39.220 --> 00:23:41.119 Mass Choir here one time. Oh, yeah. I remember 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:44.039 that. And my sister -in -law is white and she's 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:46.039 Pentecostal. Yeah. So we were sitting in the 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.740 pew and she got up and I wondered where she was. 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:50.480 She was in the back getting into it. And she 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:52.650 said to me, what's wrong with these people? I 00:23:52.650 --> 00:23:54.289 said, they're very Anglican, but they're learning. 00:23:55.950 --> 00:23:58.910 But I think too that, and that's an opportunity 00:23:58.910 --> 00:24:01.470 for us to maybe show people that it's okay to 00:24:01.470 --> 00:24:03.069 move to music. And I noticed there's a lot of 00:24:03.069 --> 00:24:05.009 people that will, but there's still some people 00:24:05.009 --> 00:24:07.109 that are very still because in the Anglican church, 00:24:07.269 --> 00:24:09.630 you know, it's not really known that you do that, 00:24:09.650 --> 00:24:12.089 but I've always been like that. I just, you know, 00:24:12.089 --> 00:24:13.750 when I first came in and I noticed that people 00:24:13.750 --> 00:24:16.589 didn't do it, I thought, should I be doing this? 00:24:16.630 --> 00:24:19.190 And eventually I, and I didn't, but eventually. 00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:21.720 It can't be helped. And as I hear music, my body 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:24.039 just starts to move. Sure. And that's how I worship. 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.619 Remember that time I was leading worship this 00:24:26.619 --> 00:24:30.099 one time and the congregation, they were clapping 00:24:30.099 --> 00:24:32.640 on one and three and I had to stop the music. 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:36.460 And I said, you people are driving me nuts. You 00:24:36.460 --> 00:24:38.319 don't clap on one and three, you clap on two 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:44.869 and four. It's like this. Clap, clap. The following 00:24:44.869 --> 00:24:47.109 weeks after that, everyone started doing the 00:24:47.109 --> 00:24:50.910 clapping thing on 214. But Jen, that was great 00:24:50.910 --> 00:24:52.609 that you brought up the whole music thing because 00:24:52.609 --> 00:24:55.829 I'm part of the worship team and I play the drums. 00:24:55.950 --> 00:24:58.549 If you go to the Caribbean, even today, you get 00:24:58.549 --> 00:25:02.250 on a bus going into the city, there's music blasting 00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:06.250 in the bus that's going into the city. And nobody 00:25:06.250 --> 00:25:08.930 cares that they're blasting the music. And very 00:25:08.930 --> 00:25:11.450 often you will hear them playing Christian music 00:25:11.450 --> 00:25:17.089 in the buses. There was one song that we play 00:25:17.089 --> 00:25:20.109 here. I forgot what it is, but it has a bit of 00:25:20.109 --> 00:25:22.250 an island beat to it. It would have been great 00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:25.329 today. I saw Pat playing the bass up there today. 00:25:25.549 --> 00:25:28.170 And I thought that because often when he plays, 00:25:28.170 --> 00:25:31.490 we play this song. And like I said, it's got 00:25:31.490 --> 00:25:34.029 a bit of a Caribbean beat to it. And it would 00:25:34.029 --> 00:25:35.809 have been perfect for today with the weather 00:25:35.809 --> 00:25:37.829 being so cold outside. It brought some of that 00:25:37.829 --> 00:25:42.410 Caribbean sunshine. We had actually tried to. 00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:47.759 To bring Julie Frost. As a matter of fact, Julie 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.279 passed away four years ago today. Okay. Wow. 00:25:51.380 --> 00:25:53.380 As a matter of fact, around this time was when 00:25:53.380 --> 00:25:57.700 her husband said goodbye to her. She had a group 00:25:57.700 --> 00:26:00.440 of people from this church that got involved 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:02.279 with playing the steel drums. I was one of them. 00:26:02.299 --> 00:26:05.799 Okay. Very cool. Wow. Yeah. It was a lot of fun. 00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:08.809 Yeah. But we had like. It wasn't just us, though. 00:26:08.930 --> 00:26:12.650 We had, I think, Carol. Yes, and Ted. Ted. They 00:26:12.650 --> 00:26:15.589 were both there, too. Carol and Ted Smith. Yeah. 00:26:15.650 --> 00:26:19.450 Okay. Very cool. And we actually had the steel 00:26:19.450 --> 00:26:23.230 band come here to the church and play out in 00:26:23.230 --> 00:26:25.769 the lobby here. Very cool. And perform two or 00:26:25.769 --> 00:26:29.349 three songs, I think it was. It was very nice 00:26:29.349 --> 00:26:32.599 to get that. that Caribbean experience into the 00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:37.079 church. But sadly, um, Julie passed and we didn't 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:40.039 get to carry on. Sure. Somebody else could have 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:44.079 taken up the torch, but maybe you get some steel 00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:47.359 drums back in the sanctuary. Music is a big part 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:50.660 of who we are. And I've been singing since I 00:26:50.660 --> 00:26:53.140 was a kid. Cause my mom, she was one kind of 00:26:53.140 --> 00:26:55.680 encouraged me, kind of enforced me to do it. 00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:58.599 But it's always part of who we are. And that's 00:26:58.599 --> 00:27:00.519 how one of the ways that I mean, when you go 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:02.400 back to slavery times, that's the way they communicated 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.559 in the fields. Sure. Most of those hymns that 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:07.720 you hear, like Swing Low, Sweet Chariot. Yeah. 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:10.799 And there's a whole bunch of them. I can't think 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:13.420 of them. Michael Rowe, The Boat of Shore. Those 00:27:13.420 --> 00:27:17.220 were songs that were actually messages to the 00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:19.480 slaves in the field and to also the slaves that 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:22.150 were on the run. Yeah. To let them know. That 00:27:22.150 --> 00:27:24.890 they were safe when it was time to go or in the 00:27:24.890 --> 00:27:26.569 field, letting them know that I'm going to be 00:27:26.569 --> 00:27:28.930 going. Are you going to come with me? Yeah. You 00:27:28.930 --> 00:27:31.490 know, so it's always been a part of who you are. 00:27:31.509 --> 00:27:33.410 It's a part of our communication. That's right. 00:27:33.490 --> 00:27:36.670 So back in the days of slavery, as Jen pointed 00:27:36.670 --> 00:27:39.529 out, they used the drums and the music for communicating 00:27:39.529 --> 00:27:43.630 messages. big part of the Caribbean culture. 00:27:43.710 --> 00:27:45.970 As a matter of fact, right now in Trinidad they're 00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:49.009 having Carnival. And Carnival stems from that 00:27:49.009 --> 00:27:53.490 whole Days of Slavery thing where they use the 00:27:53.490 --> 00:27:57.910 music to communicate all. And we have Caravana 00:27:57.910 --> 00:28:02.049 here in August. August is probably a better time 00:28:02.049 --> 00:28:05.130 to be having a festival outdoors than the middle 00:28:05.130 --> 00:28:11.900 of February. Yeah, for sure. So then like, yeah, 00:28:12.059 --> 00:28:13.759 I just, as I think about all of this, like there's 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:17.759 so much like richness in like what you're saying 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:20.200 and like so much richness in like just being 00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:23.299 part of this really diverse sort of group of 00:28:23.299 --> 00:28:26.339 people and being able to like be yourselves and 00:28:26.339 --> 00:28:29.640 like bring yourself into that space. Yeah. It 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:31.700 just like seems really important. It is important. 00:28:31.859 --> 00:28:33.599 It's important to feel like you're part of something, 00:28:33.700 --> 00:28:36.680 especially growing up when you, from my childhood 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:38.920 mostly. That was a time when you would hear, 00:28:39.059 --> 00:28:41.900 you know, comments about you. Sure. From other 00:28:41.900 --> 00:28:44.380 kids. And, you know, even as a teenager joining 00:28:44.380 --> 00:28:46.400 a youth group, it was kind of uncomfortable and 00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:47.920 I didn't want to go. But, you know, my mother 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:51.640 said, you're going. So I went. Yeah. And then 00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:54.859 so those people in my youth group, we still connect 00:28:54.859 --> 00:28:57.180 from time to time, you know, and which is pretty 00:28:57.180 --> 00:28:59.980 awesome. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. Feeling connected 00:28:59.980 --> 00:29:02.279 there, feeling connected here at Trinity. You 00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:04.859 know, it doesn't matter what you're doing. You're 00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:06.359 always connected to something and something. 00:29:07.180 --> 00:29:10.019 Like I have the opportunity of helping out with 00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:12.039 a community dinner, which is pretty awesome. 00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:14.359 I get to sit with people in our community and 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:17.039 just chat with them. And they don't care about 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.680 color or anything like that. They're just happy 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:21.839 to have someone sit and talk with them. And when 00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.480 I'm looking at them, I'm looking at them as people, 00:29:23.539 --> 00:29:27.180 not, oh, they're, you know. So being able to 00:29:27.180 --> 00:29:29.559 come out of that and not have to worry about 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:34.059 the fact that I'm different. I know who I am. 00:29:34.990 --> 00:29:37.569 When I'm in my fellowship group, whether it's 00:29:37.569 --> 00:29:39.549 life group, whether it's worship, it doesn't 00:29:39.549 --> 00:29:45.529 matter. I'm just Jen. Yeah, that's awesome. So 00:29:45.529 --> 00:29:49.849 if folks are sort of thinking about this and 00:29:49.849 --> 00:29:52.150 maybe there's some new information that folks 00:29:52.150 --> 00:29:53.829 are hearing or maybe it's just stuff they haven't 00:29:53.829 --> 00:29:56.589 thought too deeply about, are there things that 00:29:56.589 --> 00:29:59.250 you would encourage people to do to better understand 00:29:59.250 --> 00:30:02.990 diversity, to better understand racial experiences 00:30:02.990 --> 00:30:06.180 and that sort of thing? And one of the things 00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:10.720 that people can do, and it's one of the things 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:13.779 that Rob has talked about or encouraged people 00:30:13.779 --> 00:30:18.599 to do. If you see someone new here at the church 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:21.680 that you don't recognize, go up and talk to them. 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.980 But to me, that's just being polite. But you 00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:29.700 should just go and speak to somebody who doesn't 00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:34.119 look like you. And then beyond that, go. Go past 00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:40.000 just being polite. Sure. Get to know that person. 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:42.240 Sure. Invite them out for coffee. Invite them 00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:48.079 over for dinner. Don't just be polite at church 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:51.640 just for the sake of being polite. Get to know 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.539 them over dinner or coffee or something else 00:30:55.539 --> 00:31:00.930 like that. So for me, there is someone in our 00:31:00.930 --> 00:31:02.690 church whose culture that I'm very interested 00:31:02.690 --> 00:31:05.289 in. She and I are going to go out. We haven't 00:31:05.289 --> 00:31:08.049 had some time yet to have a coffee just so I 00:31:08.049 --> 00:31:09.630 could get to know her culture a little bit more. 00:31:09.670 --> 00:31:11.650 I've always been interested. And there's this 00:31:11.650 --> 00:31:13.930 person in my church who is that culture. So I 00:31:13.930 --> 00:31:17.150 should. Why not? So I have approached her to 00:31:17.150 --> 00:31:18.849 say, you know what? I'd really like to learn 00:31:18.849 --> 00:31:21.250 more about you. And so we are going to go out 00:31:21.250 --> 00:31:23.910 and have a coffee and just see, you know, and, 00:31:23.950 --> 00:31:25.769 you know, and as you get to know people, then 00:31:25.769 --> 00:31:27.269 it's a little bit more comfortable for you to 00:31:27.269 --> 00:31:29.390 ask them out. you know, to have dinner together. 00:31:29.630 --> 00:31:31.910 But I think the beginning part is just to, to 00:31:31.910 --> 00:31:34.670 just saying hello is, is the first. Sure. Right. 00:31:34.829 --> 00:31:37.329 Yeah. And then, so I'm really excited to go out 00:31:37.329 --> 00:31:39.210 and learn about more about her culture. Yeah. 00:31:39.269 --> 00:31:41.269 So that's one way that you can do it. You know, 00:31:41.289 --> 00:31:42.970 if you want to learn about a specific culture, 00:31:43.049 --> 00:31:45.369 we have so many diverse people here. Just approach 00:31:45.369 --> 00:31:47.230 them and say, Hey, you know what? I'm really 00:31:47.230 --> 00:31:49.329 interested in knowing about how your faith, just 00:31:49.329 --> 00:31:51.829 what we're doing right now. You might even have 00:31:51.829 --> 00:31:55.009 her, but I'll still go out and have coffee with 00:31:55.009 --> 00:31:57.069 you just to get to know her better. So there's 00:31:57.069 --> 00:31:58.970 always those opportunities and Taste of the World 00:31:58.970 --> 00:32:01.430 is a great thing. It's a great way to start because 00:32:01.430 --> 00:32:03.490 now we have a cookbook coming out of that. That's 00:32:03.490 --> 00:32:08.309 pretty amazing. So that's pretty amazing. I couldn't 00:32:08.309 --> 00:32:10.869 come because I had to go to a 40th birthday party. 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:14.200 But I heard it was amazing. And I remember years 00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:16.339 ago when we had it, it was pretty amazing. Yeah. 00:32:16.420 --> 00:32:18.619 You know, it was a lot of fun. And we actually, 00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:20.400 I think we had a show too, where people were 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.119 able to do, and I'm not sure they did that with 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:24.799 this one, but people were able to perform and, 00:32:24.819 --> 00:32:26.180 you know, show a little bit of their culture 00:32:26.180 --> 00:32:28.839 that way, which was, and we had a fashion show 00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:31.339 too. Okay. Which was kind of fun, but it's a 00:32:31.339 --> 00:32:33.099 great way to get to know people and who they 00:32:33.099 --> 00:32:34.559 are and where they come from and what they're 00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:36.940 about and how their faith, you know, works into 00:32:36.940 --> 00:32:41.440 that. And for me, I guess faith doesn't, As far 00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:46.019 as what faith is and as far as diversity, I don't 00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:48.460 think that for me, it doesn't really have anything 00:32:48.460 --> 00:32:51.720 to do with my diversity or who I am. It does 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:54.039 in terms of how I was raised. But even that, 00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:58.180 I mean, I'm Canadian. So, like, you know, I didn't 00:32:58.180 --> 00:32:59.759 have the experience of going to church in the 00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:02.279 Caribbean. I have gone back with my parents to 00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:05.220 go to church. And even like the whole. back to 00:33:05.220 --> 00:33:08.859 the dressing thing, even in 110 degree weather, 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:11.720 people are dressed into the nines. They got jackets 00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:14.339 on and pantyhose. I'm like, you know, I'm dying, 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.000 but you know, but all of that is so important 00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:19.279 to different people in different ways. And just 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.319 learning about that, you know, and understanding 00:33:21.319 --> 00:33:23.099 where people are coming from. Sure. It helps 00:33:23.099 --> 00:33:28.680 us to be better understanding. I did say understanding, 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.000 but maybe understanding is not the right word, 00:33:31.059 --> 00:33:33.880 but. It helps us not even to be prepared, but 00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:37.619 to just to just get ourselves more involved in 00:33:37.619 --> 00:33:40.859 people's cultures and understand diversity for 00:33:40.859 --> 00:33:42.819 what it is. Yeah. Understand is not the wrong 00:33:42.819 --> 00:33:48.039 word, but having an understanding of who we are, 00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.859 like black people, we're not all the same. Like 00:33:50.859 --> 00:33:55.759 Jen, as I just find out that she was born and 00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:57.960 raised in England, so she would have different 00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:01.960 experiences in her. English church than I would 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:04.779 have had in my Caribbean church. Yeah, except 00:34:04.779 --> 00:34:06.440 there's only three, so I don't really have any 00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:12.280 experience. I know that we have some African 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:16.219 members of our congregation. They listen to different 00:34:16.219 --> 00:34:21.059 music than some Black people listen to hip -hop, 00:34:21.099 --> 00:34:23.619 some don't. Some Black people listen to Caribbean 00:34:23.619 --> 00:34:27.360 music, some don't. Right. But to your point, 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:30.079 because I was brought up in Canada, I don't really 00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:34.019 have any, I'm Canadian. Sure. I wish I could 00:34:34.019 --> 00:34:37.340 say I was Caribbean, but I'm not. I grew up with 00:34:37.340 --> 00:34:39.780 Caribbean music, but I grew up in the church 00:34:39.780 --> 00:34:44.619 here. So I'm not familiar with Caribbean. Like 00:34:44.619 --> 00:34:47.340 my parents played them, but I grew up in Canada. 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:50.280 So I was three. So I grew up in the church here. 00:34:50.420 --> 00:34:53.809 So I'm very Anglican. The difference is that 00:34:53.809 --> 00:34:56.690 evangelical is different for me, which is pretty 00:34:56.690 --> 00:34:58.670 awesome because it's a different way to worship. 00:34:58.809 --> 00:35:01.309 So for me, that's my different way of worshiping 00:35:01.309 --> 00:35:03.550 and understanding my faith. At the end of the 00:35:03.550 --> 00:35:10.190 day, we all pray to the same God. My most favorite 00:35:10.190 --> 00:35:13.110 way of worshiping is through music. And you probably 00:35:13.110 --> 00:35:15.929 know that a lot of our songs that we play up 00:35:15.929 --> 00:35:18.750 on the stage comes right from scripture. We play 00:35:18.750 --> 00:35:21.090 10 ,000 Reasons. That's right from scripture. 00:35:22.489 --> 00:35:25.489 Sorry, I can't quote the passage right now. I 00:35:25.489 --> 00:35:29.070 was going through a period back in 2023. I usually 00:35:29.070 --> 00:35:31.210 keep some stuff to myself. But I was going through 00:35:31.210 --> 00:35:36.769 a period back in 2023. And my anthem for a good 00:35:36.769 --> 00:35:40.070 couple of weeks was Battle Belongs by Jeremy. 00:35:40.610 --> 00:35:45.030 Is it Jeremy? No, it was Phil Wickham. And I 00:35:45.030 --> 00:35:47.909 played that song daily. And that song is also 00:35:47.909 --> 00:35:51.190 straight from scripture. The battle belongs to 00:35:51.190 --> 00:35:54.949 God. And, you know, because I was saying that 00:35:54.949 --> 00:35:57.530 at the end of the day, we all listen to scripture 00:35:57.530 --> 00:36:00.690 through music. Yeah. Despite the fact that we're 00:36:00.690 --> 00:36:04.789 all different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like 00:36:04.789 --> 00:36:07.650 it's like just hearing you talk about, you know, 00:36:07.670 --> 00:36:09.610 things like like how we dress and music and how 00:36:09.610 --> 00:36:11.489 we move in church and all these different things. 00:36:11.510 --> 00:36:14.730 Right. Like these are all important differences 00:36:14.730 --> 00:36:18.909 that like. But they're kind of like surface level 00:36:18.909 --> 00:36:20.849 differences, really. I mean, like there's different 00:36:20.849 --> 00:36:23.469 ideologies and like thoughts and beliefs behind 00:36:23.469 --> 00:36:26.570 it. But like Jesus is still Jesus. We're all 00:36:26.570 --> 00:36:29.210 still doing the same faith thing, even if it 00:36:29.210 --> 00:36:32.989 like looks different or even if we like emphasize 00:36:32.989 --> 00:36:35.289 different parts differently. And I think that 00:36:35.289 --> 00:36:38.050 was God's purpose, wasn't it? Sure. Day of Pentecost. 00:36:38.230 --> 00:36:40.210 Yeah. He's the one that made everyone's, you 00:36:40.210 --> 00:36:42.630 know, languages change and voices change. And 00:36:42.630 --> 00:36:46.599 so. You know, I think as much as we have diversity 00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:48.159 and we have different cultures, at the end of 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:51.079 the day, we all belong to God. Yeah. We're all 00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:54.139 worshiping the same God. And it's nice to have 00:36:54.139 --> 00:36:56.920 those differences. Yeah. But at the same time, 00:36:56.940 --> 00:36:58.860 I think that we're all the same people. Yeah. 00:36:58.980 --> 00:37:03.519 We're all Christians. And I won't be doing that. 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:07.300 That's how different we are. Okay. No high fives. 00:37:07.300 --> 00:37:12.619 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thank you so much, folks. I 00:37:12.619 --> 00:37:15.519 appreciate. your like honesty and vulnerability 00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.460 in this conversation. And I appreciate, yeah, 00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:21.000 just the way that you have brought your whole 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.199 selves into this and been so willing to share 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:26.460 and help us get to have a little bit of a picture 00:37:26.460 --> 00:37:29.000 of like what church looks like through your eyes 00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:31.630 and how we can all. come together and support 00:37:31.630 --> 00:37:34.110 and care for one another in the midst of our 00:37:34.110 --> 00:37:36.670 diverse experiences. So thank you so much. Thank 00:37:36.670 --> 00:37:38.110 you for having me. Thanks for the opportunity. 00:37:38.489 --> 00:37:41.369 Appreciate it. And thank you for joining us for 00:37:41.369 --> 00:37:44.070 this week's episode of Trinity Talks. Wherever 00:37:44.070 --> 00:37:47.210 you find yourself, whether it's in a diverse 00:37:47.210 --> 00:37:49.989 church or a monocultural church, whether you 00:37:49.989 --> 00:37:53.010 are a person of color or not, I pray that God 00:37:53.010 --> 00:37:55.429 meets you there and that you are able to find 00:37:55.429 --> 00:37:57.769 a community that can walk with you and support 00:37:57.769 --> 00:38:01.639 you in all. of the various areas of our lives. 00:38:02.219 --> 00:38:03.380 We'll see you again next week.