Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I am joined
here by two folks who are members of our congregation
here at Trinity. And we're going to talk a little
bit more about race and faith and Black history
and just like what it is like to sort of be people
of color in the midst of a multicultural church.
So thank you for joining me, folks. Happy to
be here. Yes. Happy Black History Month. Yes.
Yeah, so maybe we'll get started, do a little
bit of introduction. So Jen, do you want to start
us off here? Sure. My name is Jen Agard. I've
been going to Trinity for 29 years. My parents
are from Barbados. They met and married in England
and I was born in England. I came to Canada when
I was three. Okay. So I'm pretty much Canadian.
Yes. Okay. You know, I always thought that you
were born in Barbados and then went to England.
Ah, okay. Well, there you go. Learn something
new every day. Yes. Okay. And my name's Curlin
McLean. You'll probably recognize me for making
all the noise in there. back there playing the
drums. I was born in the island of St. Vincent,
and St. Vincent is across the street from Barbados,
actually. If you look at the map, and you'll
see that all the islands in the Caribbean go
in an arc, and Barbados, they're special, they
stick out by themselves. And if you look directly
across from Barbados, you'll see St. Vincent
right there. And I used to go to, when I was
a kid, I went to a Methodist church in St. Vincent.
And the church, it's an old, I wouldn't be surprised
if that church was built in the 1800s. Okay,
wow. And my memories of going to that church
as a kid, I was 11 years old when I came to Canada.
Sure. It was just about 30 years ago. What I
remembered most about the church is that we used
to have an event called Harvest around October,
November. you know the kids in the church would
participate in the harvest event we'd have to
memorize scripture or read a poem or something
like that and there was always music music music
music everywhere it's always vibrant music in
the church and that was one of the things that
i brought from the caribbean with me here to
further my faith journey here so it's So people
from Vincent are called Vincentians or Vincy
for short. And yeah, so my journey is the Vincy
journey, the Vincy experience and the Caribbean,
sorry, and the Canadian journey afterwards. Okay,
very cool. Yeah. So are there any ways that you
think, like, I guess you've already sort of brought
us into this a little bit, Carolyn, like that
your race or your like cultural background have
impacted the way that you. believe or the way
that you practice your faith um yeah it's been
well i mentioned the the harvest harvest was
the big community thing for for us and and what
i see here at trinity well when i started coming
to trinity i came i came here i think in like
1994 i'm aging myself uh back in 1994 and um
It just kind of grew from there. The church kind
of grew from there culturally, I find. I find
that there's a lot more different. It's a lot
more diverse now than it was back in 1994. There's
more cultures. But what I see is that the harvest
and the community spirit that we have here at
Trinity is what I look forward to most. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, for sure. So I grew up at St. Brad's
Church. Okay. Which was, there were a few Caribbean
families there. It was predominantly white. But
my mother exposed us to a lot. Like I joined
youth group. And I was pretty much the only kid
of color in youth group. Okay. But I never felt
that I was any different than anybody else. We
had different events that would happen. My mom
sang in the choir. And they did actually give
us an opportunity to have like an evening of
diversity where we would sort of. introduce our
Caribbean roots to them. I wouldn't say that
my Caribbean roots really were any different
than what I was experiencing at St. Bride's.
Because my parents, the foundation of Christianity
was how we were raised. And in our home, it wasn't
like we prayed together or we read scripture
together. We did watch Billy Graham. That was
a staple in our house. Every Sunday we had to
watch Billy Graham. There was no talking when
that was happening. And as far as coming to Trinity,
I don't think there is any difference. The only
big difference is what Carolyn mentioned is diversity.
Right. The huge amount of diversity that is here
at Trinity as compared to St. Bride's. Right.
But I mean, I had a really good experience at
St. Bride's being in youth groups singing. I
sang in a folk group. That's when I first started
singing. My mom sang in the choir. So eventually
she made me sing in the choir. Sure. But yeah,
I don't think there was really any difference.
Okay. I felt the same too. There was a bit of
a difference for me. When we came to Canada,
my mom didn't come. She was Anglican, and that
was baptized Methodist. To be honest, I don't
even know what Methodist is. But anyhow, when
we were living in Don Mills, and she found an
Anglican church across the street. sort of across
us, but we had to walk a bit of a distance to
get there. And she sent me and my younger brother
to this Anglican church. And when we went, we
had to dress in suit and tie every Sunday. And
same in St. Vincent. When I lived in St. Vincent,
we always went to church. Church for us in St.
Vincent, we had the whole family was there in
the morning. And then in the afternoon, the kids
would go back for Sunday school. So it wasn't
incorporated. It was a whole day event. Then
when I left, my parents in Pickering and moved
to Mississauga, I was in search of a church because
my mother was shoving the Anglican church on
me. She wasn't really shoving it on me, but I
appreciate it. That's it. I started searching
for a church and I landed here. This was the
first church that I found and it's the only church
that I've ever explored. I've been to other churches,
but this is the only church that I stayed at.
It was the first one that I found and came here.
And I came dressed in suit and tie. And I looked
around and everyone else was wearing just casual.
And I came the second time and I dressed in suit
and tie again. I looked around. It was so different
from what I was accustomed to. Back in St. Vincent
and going to the Anglican Church out in Don Mills.
And then after that, I just started dressing
casually like everyone else. But I would say
that's more of a cultural thing because in the
West Indies, because at St. Bride's, we always
dressed up. But the whole church did. Sure. So
coming to Trinity, it was like that when I first
came. But then I noticed that it became more
casual. And I think that was more to introduce
other people into the church who may not be able
to dress. you know? Sure. The way we grew up,
we had Sunday school clothes that were just for
Sunday school. That's right. Yes. That was our
respect for the church. And it's not to say that
people don't dress, but that's just the way that.
you know, Caribbean, I guess black people are
when it comes to church, it's someplace that
is respected and honored. So you dress that way.
Sure. So a lot of people still in this church,
I see there are still people that dress that
way. Yeah. And they may not understand when they
see other people that are not dressed that way.
And that's where it comes from. It's not necessarily,
it's not a judgment. It's just a cultural thing.
Sure. Where when you go to church, you dress
properly, right? Or what's considered proper.
Right. By dressing up. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm
wearing jeans today, which I rarely do because
it's still in the back of my mind that I have
to dress properly. But today is not one off for
me. Well, they're black jeans, so they're a little
nicer, right? It didn't matter. I remember asking
once if I could wear jeans or cords to church,
and my mother just stared at me like I had two
heads. You're never allowed to mix the two together.
They're separate. When you come to church, you
honor church by dressing appropriately. Okay.
Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. yeah um so when
you think about maybe it's culture maybe it's
race like are there ways that that those aspects
of your identity have like created challenges
or have created like moments of joy as you mix
you know like your cultural and racial identity
with your like faith identity I think the only
challenge for me growing up was I never saw anyone
in leadership that looked like me. I'm staying
in the choir, but I wouldn't say that was really
leadership. Sure. There was nobody like in the
pulpit. No, there was no one in the pulpit. And
there were maybe a few groups, volunteer groups,
but still in those groups, you never saw anyone
that was different. And I think even now when
we're looking at diversity here at Trinity and
we're trying to engage people, when it comes
to black people, I think that's what part of
it is, is that. never saw that before. So, you
know, why now are they interested in having me
join this group? But it's nice to see that people
are starting to do it, which is great. But that's
probably where it comes from. That would be the
only challenge for me at that time. I don't find
that challenge here anymore because I've had
the opportunity to be involved in a lot of different
ministries and some leadership, some, you know,
all volunteer, but some leadership, some just
walking alongside. So that's been. a joy rather
than a challenge. Sure. But that would be the
only challenge that, you know, just knowing that
from my past and not being sure whether, you
know, can I actually do that? Am I okay to do
that? Right. But watching Trinity over the years,
it's evolved quite a bit. Sure. Where it's opened
the doors to allow anybody to do anything. Yeah.
Yeah. So that's really positive. For sure. Yeah.
And like you were serving as like a warden. for
our church for a while. So like, that was like
one of like the, the top three sort of leadership
roles, kind of, kind of in the church. And so
like, yeah, in some ways I think you're like
blazing a path so people can like look at that.
That's true. That's true. Jen did that. So like
I can do that. Well, and that's what I hope.
Yeah. Because there are a lot of people that
want to do a lot of things and they don't necessarily
want to be involved because they're not sure.
Yeah. And sometimes. They look to me to be the
person involved and I try to encourage people.
Now you get involved and I see that there are
a lot of people getting involved in different
things, you know, that, you know, that are not
actually in the forefront, but still, I think
it's a slow progression to that. Yeah, for sure.
And similar to Jen, I was able to participate
in some of the. The activities here at the church.
I was a deputy warden, if you want to call it
that, or advisory. I was on the advisory committee
on the Trinity as well. But I started playing
with the worship team here in 2008, I think it
was. And I actually never saw myself up there
up front. At one point, I was actually assisting
with leading worship up there. And I never saw
myself in that capacity at this church. I was
given that opportunity in my professional career.
I did experience this is external to the church.
I did experience a challenging time where I was
a police officer and I was pretty much forced
out of the police service because of racial discrimination.
We won't get into all the dirty details of that.
But when we come to church and when I come to
church and. I bring that weight of me as a Black
person with that challenge of navigating what
was supposed to be me helping enforce justice
out there in the community and navigating around
the injustices of the racial discrimination that
I experienced in the police service. And when
we come into the church, I bring that weight
with me into the sanctuary. And some people don't.
We all come into the church for different reasons.
And sometimes some of my friends who don't go
to church or are non -believers, why do you go
to church? Well, I still need my spiritual nourishment.
That's why I come in. But not everybody comes
in sharing the same. experience that I endured.
And so when we walk in, you don't know what's
Curlin carrying today. When he goes up for communion,
what's he carrying with him? When we're in the
moment of prayer, what's he praying for? What's
so heavy on his heart? What's so heavy on Jen's
heart today that we need to pray for? Sure. You
never know what we're carrying, what we're experiencing.
And on that, I think that a lot of people don't
believe that we that we experience racism now.
They believe that, oh, you know, it doesn't happen
here or, you know, even in the States, people
don't believe that some of the stuff that's going
on is real. Yeah. And and I think what Kerlin
is saying, what I feel, too, is that sometimes
people need to. to think about what it's like
to walk in our shoes because I experienced that
in my, in my workplace too. And that was in 2018.
Right. And people still experience it today.
And, and it's not to say that, you know, the
church is kind of the sanctuary. It's a place
where we can bring that to God. But I, I also
think that we can't forget that it happens everywhere,
like even in a church. And I'm not saying Trinity,
but I, when I was. asked to do this, I was talking
to a couple about what I was going to do. And
they mentioned that maybe five to 10 years ago,
they were in a church where they sat in a pew
by themselves, even during the holidays when
it was packed, nobody would sit in their pew
because they were the only people of color in
their church. And that's disappointing, but it's
real. And I think that people need to recognize
that this is real. This is not something that
just happens or that we just believe in our minds.
We actually experienced it. But it's nice to
know that you can come to a church where There's
so much diversity and everybody respects everyone
and everyone is so welcoming. And I think that's
why we have so many people coming to Trinity.
It's because they feel welcome. They look around
and they see that. And they now see everybody
up on the pulpit doing different things, whether
it's worship, whether they're reading scripture
or praying or serving or welcoming, whatever
it is. Everybody's there. Everybody's there.
Not to belabor Jen's point, but it's really,
really heartbreaking when I'm talking to somebody
who's white, for example, and you tell them about
some of the things that we experienced. And as
Jen said, they would respond with, that doesn't
really happen. And it's really, really heartbreaking.
I was really, I think it was September when Charlie
Kirk was shot and killed. I absolutely don't
condone violence in any form, sort or shape or
form. But when that event happened, I was surprised
to find that some people actually from this church
was posting on social media their sorrow and
their support for Charlie Kirk in a way. Yes,
grieve for Charlie Kirk that he was violently
killed, but they supported him in a way that
was deplorable. Because Charlie Kirk had made
some really, really disparaging comments about
black people. Actually, I think I've made a couple
of notes about what he had said. One of the things
what he had said was Joy Reid was a TV reporter.
Joy Reid, Ketanji Brown Jackson, the Supreme
Court Justice and Michelle Obama. They stole
white people's jobs because they did. And they
shouldn't have because they don't have the brain
capacity to be in those roles. I think it was
something to that effect. He also said something
about, if I see a white pilot at the airport,
I have to stop and wonder if he's a diversity
hire and if he's properly qualified to fly the
plane. But he wouldn't say that about somebody
who's white. Really broke my heart to see people
who I thought were my friends support that ideology.
Sure. I think in that case, and I'm not making
excuses, I think people have a hard time separating.
Sure. You know, what that person is from the
fact that they are, you know, yes, they've lost
their lives and that's understandable. But I
think sometimes. They may be separating the fact
and thinking, oh, you know, but he's still a
person. And yes, he is still a person. But you
can't, as Carly was saying, you can't forget
where he was coming from. And it's hard for us
to feel, you feel sorrow because you don't want
anyone to be hurt ever. I don't want to do violence
either. But be real about who the person is.
You know, don't try to hide behind it because
he lost his life. It's unfortunate he lost his
life. But the type of person he was was not a
good person. Right. And didn't care for people
like myself and Carolyn. Right. And other diverse
people in the world. Right. So it is hurtful.
And you can't really talk about it because then
your loved one is being angry because black people
are angry, apparently. And we're not angry. We
just want justice like anybody else does. Not
that that's justice, but in terms of understanding
what we go through and what's said about us and
how we perceive those things and how we feel
when we hear those things. For sure. Yeah. And
just figuring out how do we hold sorrow for the
loss of a life and also. sorrow for the damage
that that life did yes right like it's yeah and
Jen might feel differently about this but when
I saw that uh people who I associate with or
associated with were posting those types of comments
yeah and I reflected on it and I thought there
there's that's their view and I thought that
I should have taken an opportunity to um because
they don't believe that These things actually
happened to us. Sure. And I should have taken
that opportunity to sort of correct them and
say, like, we actually really do experience these
things. And but I didn't. I just left it alone.
And sometimes I think you have to you needed
a chance to step back, though, and look at it
and determine how do I want to respond to it?
Because sometimes when you see things like that,
you initially want to respond in a way that may
not be, you know, correct. And you don't it's
not about. having a debate back and forth is
about trying to understand each other and where
we're coming from yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah
i think there's a lot of moments where we ask
ourselves okay what what is the right thing for
me to do here right and like sometimes it is
to engage and sometimes that's just like not
the work i can do today yeah and it depends on
the people that you're dealing with because if
they're not going to be open to hearing it right
then why are you wasting your breath to say anything
you just understand you appreciate that they're
letting you know where they stand yeah and i
appreciate that more than anything i know where
you stand now so yeah yeah so like when you think
about bringing all of these experiences into
the church like has church felt like a place
where you can like do that well and like be able
to like come together and like share some of
that that sorrow and that heaviness I mentioned
my police career. Back in 2000, I had a very
dramatic incident that happened with me at work.
And around that time, we were meeting at Hazel
McAllen Public School. The event happened on
the Friday, and I went to church on the Sunday,
and I was just sitting there in the pew. I think
it was Diane Toyson and Dave and Harold Percy
was the pastor at the time. And they actually
came and grabbed me out of the pew and took me
into a room. They had heard about what had happened.
Yeah. And they prayed for me. Yeah. I didn't
know that they were aware, but it was coming
into the church and having the community pray
for me in such a way that was really like. They're
here for me. They knew what happened and they
came and they got me. And that's what I see in
Trinity, that this whole community of diverse
people are all coming together and sharing together,
much like when I was in St. Vincent and we had
our harvest. in October or November, whenever
it was. And that whole community came together
and there was, you know, there was joy, there
was music, there was, you know. But that's what
I appreciated was that the community was there
to support me. And that's what I appreciate about
the fact that I was accepted into a Trinity.
Yeah, it's intentional fellowship. You know,
it's, yes, we have culture, we have diversity,
but at the end of the day, we have a church community.
And to me, For example, my faith doesn't have
a color. My faith is about my relationship with
Christ. It's not because I'm black. My relationship
with Christ is different. Everybody's faith is
different. That I agree with. But having a relationship
with Christ is not about the color of your skin
or the culture or diversity that you belong to.
It's that relationship that you have with Christ.
And that goes into the community and fellowship
as well. It's not about... the color of anyone's
skin. It's about what is that person going through?
Let's pray with that person. It's not about,
well, is it okay because they're different? It
doesn't happen here at Trinity. Everybody cares
about everyone. I mean, and it's not to say that,
yeah, you may have people in the church that
may not agree with that, but that really doesn't
matter because God's working on those people,
right? So we're focused as a community to care
for each other and help each other and acknowledge
each other and see each other. that's the most
important thing is that we see each other. And
I think at Trinity, we do that. Yeah. We see
each other. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So are
there things, I know we've sort of talked a little
bit about this, but are you thinking, are there
things that you wish like more people understood
about like black people's experiences of faith
or of church? I know we already talked about
this, but as far as the way that we dress. Yeah.
No, like. As casual as Trinity is, I can tell
you there are a lot of Caribbean people who are
not going to dress casual. Sure. Because it's
ingrained in their mind, as Carolyn said, that
this is the way. Sure. But it's not to put anybody
else down. They're just like that. And if you
do have someone say something, it's just because
it's ingrained in them. Sure. That's how you
dress for church. Yep. And the other thing, too,
is we move when we worship. Like, I can't stay
still when music is going on. I have to move.
And, you know, sometimes... Sometimes I'm the
only one moving. Sure. But I don't. It's just
who we are. Because if you ever go to the islands,
people do not stay still when they're worshiping.
Sure. They don't. If you go to a Pentecostal
church, they definitely don't stay still. My
sister -in -law came here. We had the Toronto
Mass Choir here one time. Oh, yeah. I remember
that. And my sister -in -law is white and she's
Pentecostal. Yeah. So we were sitting in the
pew and she got up and I wondered where she was.
She was in the back getting into it. And she
said to me, what's wrong with these people? I
said, they're very Anglican, but they're learning.
But I think too that, and that's an opportunity
for us to maybe show people that it's okay to
move to music. And I noticed there's a lot of
people that will, but there's still some people
that are very still because in the Anglican church,
you know, it's not really known that you do that,
but I've always been like that. I just, you know,
when I first came in and I noticed that people
didn't do it, I thought, should I be doing this?
And eventually I, and I didn't, but eventually.
It can't be helped. And as I hear music, my body
just starts to move. Sure. And that's how I worship.
Remember that time I was leading worship this
one time and the congregation, they were clapping
on one and three and I had to stop the music.
And I said, you people are driving me nuts. You
don't clap on one and three, you clap on two
and four. It's like this. Clap, clap. The following
weeks after that, everyone started doing the
clapping thing on 214. But Jen, that was great
that you brought up the whole music thing because
I'm part of the worship team and I play the drums.
If you go to the Caribbean, even today, you get
on a bus going into the city, there's music blasting
in the bus that's going into the city. And nobody
cares that they're blasting the music. And very
often you will hear them playing Christian music
in the buses. There was one song that we play
here. I forgot what it is, but it has a bit of
an island beat to it. It would have been great
today. I saw Pat playing the bass up there today.
And I thought that because often when he plays,
we play this song. And like I said, it's got
a bit of a Caribbean beat to it. And it would
have been perfect for today with the weather
being so cold outside. It brought some of that
Caribbean sunshine. We had actually tried to.
To bring Julie Frost. As a matter of fact, Julie
passed away four years ago today. Okay. Wow.
As a matter of fact, around this time was when
her husband said goodbye to her. She had a group
of people from this church that got involved
with playing the steel drums. I was one of them.
Okay. Very cool. Wow. Yeah. It was a lot of fun.
Yeah. But we had like. It wasn't just us, though.
We had, I think, Carol. Yes, and Ted. Ted. They
were both there, too. Carol and Ted Smith. Yeah.
Okay. Very cool. And we actually had the steel
band come here to the church and play out in
the lobby here. Very cool. And perform two or
three songs, I think it was. It was very nice
to get that. that Caribbean experience into the
church. But sadly, um, Julie passed and we didn't
get to carry on. Sure. Somebody else could have
taken up the torch, but maybe you get some steel
drums back in the sanctuary. Music is a big part
of who we are. And I've been singing since I
was a kid. Cause my mom, she was one kind of
encouraged me, kind of enforced me to do it.
But it's always part of who we are. And that's
how one of the ways that I mean, when you go
back to slavery times, that's the way they communicated
in the fields. Sure. Most of those hymns that
you hear, like Swing Low, Sweet Chariot. Yeah.
And there's a whole bunch of them. I can't think
of them. Michael Rowe, The Boat of Shore. Those
were songs that were actually messages to the
slaves in the field and to also the slaves that
were on the run. Yeah. To let them know. That
they were safe when it was time to go or in the
field, letting them know that I'm going to be
going. Are you going to come with me? Yeah. You
know, so it's always been a part of who you are.
It's a part of our communication. That's right.
So back in the days of slavery, as Jen pointed
out, they used the drums and the music for communicating
messages. big part of the Caribbean culture.
As a matter of fact, right now in Trinidad they're
having Carnival. And Carnival stems from that
whole Days of Slavery thing where they use the
music to communicate all. And we have Caravana
here in August. August is probably a better time
to be having a festival outdoors than the middle
of February. Yeah, for sure. So then like, yeah,
I just, as I think about all of this, like there's
so much like richness in like what you're saying
and like so much richness in like just being
part of this really diverse sort of group of
people and being able to like be yourselves and
like bring yourself into that space. Yeah. It
just like seems really important. It is important.
It's important to feel like you're part of something,
especially growing up when you, from my childhood
mostly. That was a time when you would hear,
you know, comments about you. Sure. From other
kids. And, you know, even as a teenager joining
a youth group, it was kind of uncomfortable and
I didn't want to go. But, you know, my mother
said, you're going. So I went. Yeah. And then
so those people in my youth group, we still connect
from time to time, you know, and which is pretty
awesome. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. Feeling connected
there, feeling connected here at Trinity. You
know, it doesn't matter what you're doing. You're
always connected to something and something.
Like I have the opportunity of helping out with
a community dinner, which is pretty awesome.
I get to sit with people in our community and
just chat with them. And they don't care about
color or anything like that. They're just happy
to have someone sit and talk with them. And when
I'm looking at them, I'm looking at them as people,
not, oh, they're, you know. So being able to
come out of that and not have to worry about
the fact that I'm different. I know who I am.
When I'm in my fellowship group, whether it's
life group, whether it's worship, it doesn't
matter. I'm just Jen. Yeah, that's awesome. So
if folks are sort of thinking about this and
maybe there's some new information that folks
are hearing or maybe it's just stuff they haven't
thought too deeply about, are there things that
you would encourage people to do to better understand
diversity, to better understand racial experiences
and that sort of thing? And one of the things
that people can do, and it's one of the things
that Rob has talked about or encouraged people
to do. If you see someone new here at the church
that you don't recognize, go up and talk to them.
But to me, that's just being polite. But you
should just go and speak to somebody who doesn't
look like you. And then beyond that, go. Go past
just being polite. Sure. Get to know that person.
Sure. Invite them out for coffee. Invite them
over for dinner. Don't just be polite at church
just for the sake of being polite. Get to know
them over dinner or coffee or something else
like that. So for me, there is someone in our
church whose culture that I'm very interested
in. She and I are going to go out. We haven't
had some time yet to have a coffee just so I
could get to know her culture a little bit more.
I've always been interested. And there's this
person in my church who is that culture. So I
should. Why not? So I have approached her to
say, you know what? I'd really like to learn
more about you. And so we are going to go out
and have a coffee and just see, you know, and,
you know, and as you get to know people, then
it's a little bit more comfortable for you to
ask them out. you know, to have dinner together.
But I think the beginning part is just to, to
just saying hello is, is the first. Sure. Right.
Yeah. And then, so I'm really excited to go out
and learn about more about her culture. Yeah.
So that's one way that you can do it. You know,
if you want to learn about a specific culture,
we have so many diverse people here. Just approach
them and say, Hey, you know what? I'm really
interested in knowing about how your faith, just
what we're doing right now. You might even have
her, but I'll still go out and have coffee with
you just to get to know her better. So there's
always those opportunities and Taste of the World
is a great thing. It's a great way to start because
now we have a cookbook coming out of that. That's
pretty amazing. So that's pretty amazing. I couldn't
come because I had to go to a 40th birthday party.
But I heard it was amazing. And I remember years
ago when we had it, it was pretty amazing. Yeah.
You know, it was a lot of fun. And we actually,
I think we had a show too, where people were
able to do, and I'm not sure they did that with
this one, but people were able to perform and,
you know, show a little bit of their culture
that way, which was, and we had a fashion show
too. Okay. Which was kind of fun, but it's a
great way to get to know people and who they
are and where they come from and what they're
about and how their faith, you know, works into
that. And for me, I guess faith doesn't, As far
as what faith is and as far as diversity, I don't
think that for me, it doesn't really have anything
to do with my diversity or who I am. It does
in terms of how I was raised. But even that,
I mean, I'm Canadian. So, like, you know, I didn't
have the experience of going to church in the
Caribbean. I have gone back with my parents to
go to church. And even like the whole. back to
the dressing thing, even in 110 degree weather,
people are dressed into the nines. They got jackets
on and pantyhose. I'm like, you know, I'm dying,
but you know, but all of that is so important
to different people in different ways. And just
learning about that, you know, and understanding
where people are coming from. Sure. It helps
us to be better understanding. I did say understanding,
but maybe understanding is not the right word,
but. It helps us not even to be prepared, but
to just to just get ourselves more involved in
people's cultures and understand diversity for
what it is. Yeah. Understand is not the wrong
word, but having an understanding of who we are,
like black people, we're not all the same. Like
Jen, as I just find out that she was born and
raised in England, so she would have different
experiences in her. English church than I would
have had in my Caribbean church. Yeah, except
there's only three, so I don't really have any
experience. I know that we have some African
members of our congregation. They listen to different
music than some Black people listen to hip -hop,
some don't. Some Black people listen to Caribbean
music, some don't. Right. But to your point,
because I was brought up in Canada, I don't really
have any, I'm Canadian. Sure. I wish I could
say I was Caribbean, but I'm not. I grew up with
Caribbean music, but I grew up in the church
here. So I'm not familiar with Caribbean. Like
my parents played them, but I grew up in Canada.
So I was three. So I grew up in the church here.
So I'm very Anglican. The difference is that
evangelical is different for me, which is pretty
awesome because it's a different way to worship.
So for me, that's my different way of worshiping
and understanding my faith. At the end of the
day, we all pray to the same God. My most favorite
way of worshiping is through music. And you probably
know that a lot of our songs that we play up
on the stage comes right from scripture. We play
10 ,000 Reasons. That's right from scripture.
Sorry, I can't quote the passage right now. I
was going through a period back in 2023. I usually
keep some stuff to myself. But I was going through
a period back in 2023. And my anthem for a good
couple of weeks was Battle Belongs by Jeremy.
Is it Jeremy? No, it was Phil Wickham. And I
played that song daily. And that song is also
straight from scripture. The battle belongs to
God. And, you know, because I was saying that
at the end of the day, we all listen to scripture
through music. Yeah. Despite the fact that we're
all different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like
it's like just hearing you talk about, you know,
things like like how we dress and music and how
we move in church and all these different things.
Right. Like these are all important differences
that like. But they're kind of like surface level
differences, really. I mean, like there's different
ideologies and like thoughts and beliefs behind
it. But like Jesus is still Jesus. We're all
still doing the same faith thing, even if it
like looks different or even if we like emphasize
different parts differently. And I think that
was God's purpose, wasn't it? Sure. Day of Pentecost.
Yeah. He's the one that made everyone's, you
know, languages change and voices change. And
so. You know, I think as much as we have diversity
and we have different cultures, at the end of
the day, we all belong to God. Yeah. We're all
worshiping the same God. And it's nice to have
those differences. Yeah. But at the same time,
I think that we're all the same people. Yeah.
We're all Christians. And I won't be doing that.
That's how different we are. Okay. No high fives.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thank you so much, folks. I
appreciate. your like honesty and vulnerability
in this conversation. And I appreciate, yeah,
just the way that you have brought your whole
selves into this and been so willing to share
and help us get to have a little bit of a picture
of like what church looks like through your eyes
and how we can all. come together and support
and care for one another in the midst of our
diverse experiences. So thank you so much. Thank
you for having me. Thanks for the opportunity.
Appreciate it. And thank you for joining us for
this week's episode of Trinity Talks. Wherever
you find yourself, whether it's in a diverse
church or a monocultural church, whether you
are a person of color or not, I pray that God
meets you there and that you are able to find
a community that can walk with you and support
you in all. of the various areas of our lives.
We'll see you again next week.