Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity
Talks. My name is Kyla and I am excited to be
joined by Dorothy Peng who works at the Tyndale
Intercultural Ministry Center and we're going
to chat a little bit more about what it means
for us as Christians to live in inter... cultural
context and how we do that really well. So thank
you for joining me, Dorothy. Thanks. I'm excited
to be here, Kyla. Yeah. Do you want to maybe
start by introducing yourself a little bit, telling
us a bit about who you are and how you got to
this work with the Tim Centre? Yeah, sure. So
I'm a second generation Chinese Canadian. My
parents are immigrants from Hong Kong. They came
to this country in 1967 when the government first
opened the policy for immigration based on a
point system. So they landed in Saskatchewan
of all places. So yeah, my mother did not speak
a word of English when she arrived in this country.
And Saskatchewan was 97 % Euro -Canadian at that
time. I came along about a year later, and so
I grew up in this Chinese cocoon for the first
five years of my life. Spoke only Chinese, ate
only Chinese food, and just learned all the mannerisms
of what it means to be a Chinese daughter. Sure.
And then I went to public school, and my whole
world changed. Sure. So I learned from a very
early age how to be bicultural, meaning... A
certain set of behaviors at home was considered
respectful. And then a certain set of behaviors
at school had to be adapted. And so I tried,
I learned really early in life how to step in
one culture and then step into a different culture
and to operate in two very diverse cultures.
And to read the underlying. cultural dynamics.
You know, all those unspoken rules of what proper
behavior is and how behavior would be interpreted.
So I learned that at a very early age. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. And so as I grew up, I went to law
school and then eventually the Lord led me into
ministry. So I co -led a large intercultural
church and then I also then moved into Tyndale.
Okay. So Tyndale has a division that is outward
facing. We work with leaders who are leading
in intercultural spaces and we help them develop
skills and mindsets about how to navigate all
those cultural dynamics. So it's such a timely
conversation in Canada right now. it's a privilege
for me to be in the middle of all those conversations
yeah yeah and i think neat that like it comes
both from your like passion and the sort of the
skills that god has given you but also like this
deeply personal story too yeah right yeah because
god doesn't waste anything yeah right he always
connects all the dots and so whatever our experiences
are he uses them all for his glory for sure yeah
so When you think about the Canadian context,
why do you think it's important for followers
of Jesus in Canada to be thinking about intercultural
ministry? Yeah, so there is a missiologist, his
name is Andrew Walls, and he talks about how
this is our Ephesians moment. He's referring
to Ephesians 2, where different countries and
people groups are coming together and the walls
that divide us are coming down because we are
centering on Jesus. And so I think that is...
Canada's moment right now. It is our Ephesians
moment. God is bringing the different people
groups from around the world to Canada. Now,
why is he doing that? I think Canadian churches
need to ask ourselves, what is God doing and
how can we join him in that? Because this is
not a fluke. It's not by accident. God is strategically
bringing people groups from around the world
to Canada. I think our culture is looking for
an alternate to itself. In other words, you turn
on the news, we see nothing but hatred, division,
silos, oppression, subordination. And so I think
our culture is looking for an alternate to itself.
I think our culture is desperately needing an
alternate to itself. What is that alternative?
It's the church. It's the body of Christ, right?
Where we have shared belonging. It is the body
of Christ where through Jesus, we are a family
together. Right. Yeah. The church done well,
I think I would say. Yes, exactly. I think there
are ways and spaces sometimes where the church
can perpetuate those silos, but like... The work
that you're doing is to try and bring all of
those pieces together, I think. Yes. And so that's
the encouraging thing for me. Leaders are calling.
Leaders are saying, help me see my blind spot.
So look at me. I am a woman. I'm a person of
color. And the leaders who are calling me are
typically older men, typically European background,
asking. me right to help them see their blind
spots right that is a type of christ -centered
humility that only the holy spirit can prompt
so that is like we should be encouraged that
god is working yeah yeah and so on that like
humility piece like we've had a conversation
before where you talked about not just being
like consumers of a culture, but being like humble
learners in a culture. So can you like tease
apart those differences for us? And what does
that look like? Sure. So for your listeners,
it might be easy to think of two C words. So
consumer of culture or being curious about culture.
So I would say lean into curiosity. So some of
the things that churches love to do these days,
and it's wonderful that they do it, is they have
these multicultural food. festivals, right? Where
they ask their congregants to come together,
everyone bring a piece of some food to share
from their cultural heritage. And I think those
are wonderful gatherings. I think they're just
fun and it brings the church together. I would
say push it a little bit further instead of,
in addition to having all the fun of going from
booth to booth, enjoying the food and the music.
Go with curiosity. Ask the person who is offering
the dish. what is the story behind this dish?
Right. Why is this meaningful to you? One church
I know did a dumpling night. And they define
dumpling as anything with something that is wrapped.
So it doesn't have to be, you know, the dumplings
that say in my Chinese culture, it's pork wrapped
in like wonton wrappers. It could be a taco.
It could be an apple blossom where you have apples
within a pastry. Anything that has, that's being
wrapped by something. Something wrapped in something
else. Yes. So every culture, has something like
that. Sure. And as they did that night, they
had people go up to the microphone and share
the story of why that dish was meaningful. So
in my heritage, dumplings, we serve them every
year on Chinese New Year's. Right. And we don't,
we wrap them as a family. So we put a big vat,
this big pot of minced pork with vegetables in
it right in the center. Yeah. And everyone has
wrappers. Yeah. And there's a certain way to
wrap it because everyone. has their own technique
okay and we chat and we laugh and we tell stories
and then we cook all the dumplings and we serve
it to each other And the shape of the dumplings
is significant. Okay. See, in the old times,
Chinese money was shaped like those dumplings.
Or I should say the dumplings are shaped like
the Chinese money. And so when we offer it to
each other, it's a sign of saying, I wish you
good fortune in the new year. So now that you
know that's my story, when you enjoy our dumplings,
you know, right? I'm wishing you good fortune.
I'm actually blessing you and your family for
this new year. Yeah. It brings a whole new layer
of meaning to it. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And
you feel like you know me a little bit better.
And if you shared your story, I'd feel like I
knew you a little bit better. Right. And that's
how shared belonging with Christ at the center
happens in the family of God. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
So then it requires us to sort of start with
that posture of humility and that willingness
to ask questions and that sort of thing. Exactly.
As opposed to just like, these are delicious
dumplings. Yeah. Like, tell me about them. Yeah,
exactly. Yeah. So move from consuming to curiosity.
Yeah, exactly. I think sometimes when we think
about intercultural conversations and contexts,
we think, OK, I need to learn about the other
person or the other culture. But one of the things,
again, that I've heard you talk about is the
connection between intercultural awareness and
self -awareness. Yeah. And so like, how does
knowing ourselves fit into all of that? Yeah.
So self -awareness is actually the first step
to developing intercultural competency. So we
all view the world through a certain lens. And
sure, we've gone so used to that lens, we don't
even see it anymore. You know, sometimes we compare
it to a fish in a fishbowl. The fish doesn't
see the water that it's swimming in. But someone
from the outside can see the color of the water.
And if you put a new fish into the fishbowl,
the new fish can definitely taste and see and
experience that water. But it's become invisible
to the original fish, right? So that's what I
mean by we need to start with self -awareness.
So ask yourself, how did I learn how to be this
way? So sometimes when I do consulting, I'll
say to someone, what does it mean to be on time?
right and some people will say well being on
time would be to arrive 10 minutes early have
everything set out and then when the time for
the meeting comes i'm ready to start so all the
chit chat is done in the first 10 minutes before
the meeting starts so to be on time is to be
10 minutes early in my culture being on time
for say for church means rolling into the parking
lot at at 11 a .m., let's say the start. And
so even though it takes time for me to walk into
the parking lot, get the kids settled into Sunday
school, I am still on time because I rolled into
the parking lot at 11 o 'clock. So different
cultures, but where did I learn that? So where
did you learn what it means to be on time? That's
culture. That's the unspoken rule of how to be
and how to behave in your world. And so you have
to, so starting with self -awareness, knowing
where you learned those rules that are normal
to you, that's the first step to developing a
cultural awareness and intercultural competency.
And I think it's interesting that like you use
this example of like being on time because I
think people just don't think of that as part
of culture, right? We often think of culture
as like the way that I dress, or the food that
I eat or the language that I speak. But like
it is these other how we show up in the world.
Exactly. Part of our culture. Yes. So sometimes
when I'm teaching, I'll use the iceberg metaphor.
Right. So the things that you mentioned about
culture, dress, food, music, that's all above
the waterline. Yeah. But there's so much more
deeper culture that we need to dig for. And that
is cultural awareness. Right. Yeah. That's intercultural
competency. And I guess then the connection to
self -awareness being like. that my understanding
of this thing is different than the next person's
understanding of this thing. And maybe you didn't
even realize that to start with, right? Like
I just assumed everybody thinks that being on
time is being 10 minutes early. Yes. That's not
it. Exactly. Yeah. So sometimes I encourage,
I encounter people who say, well, I have no culture.
Right. And I, and I, so when they say that, there's
no judgment there. It just tells me that there's
a person who's at the beginning. journey a beginning
of their journey of cultural awareness and self
-awareness because we all have culture sure so
yeah yeah so what would you say in your work
are some of the biggest barriers that people
experience to like coming to better self -awareness
or intercultural competency? Yeah, I would say
the biggest barrier is discomfort. When we encounter
someone who is different from us, someone who
has a different set of unspoken rules of how
to behave in this world, how to understand this
world, there's tension. it's really uncomfortable.
And as church leaders, as Christ followers, we
just want to get along. We just want harmony
in our relationship. So one of the common ways
to deal with that tension is just to... push
it down sure we're not going to deal with it
right and kyla and i can find something else
in common i'm just not going to talk about why
she is always late for our meetings right and
you're not going to talk to me about how i'm
always frowning at you when you walk in on time
and you're on time right yeah we're just not
going to talk about that sure and so i think
the discomfort and the inability to work through
the tension that can be the biggest hurdle for
how we can operate as the family of god right
because we're really there's now this unspoken
barrier between us that we're just tolerating
each other's business uh differences instead
of actually leaning in and say tell me about
that right where did you learn that where did
you learn that being on time is to be 10 minutes
early right and dorothy where did you learn that
being on time means to roll in just at the specified
time right like we need to understand each other
right to have shared belonging and if you were
having that conversation so if that was a real
situation and and you wanted to ask me okay how
how did you learn to always be 10 minutes like
is that how you would word that question or like
how how would you start that conversation yeah
yeah so i would say kyla i noticed that when
our when we have Let's say worship service at
11 o 'clock. You're here by 1030. I'm really
curious. Tell me about that. Where did you learn
to come in so early? I would say so early. And
then you might say, Dorothy, that's not early.
That's on time, right? And then we would have
a conversation about it. No judgment. Hopefully
some laughs and some smiles. And then we go,
oh, okay. Then we would say, well, you know,
if we're going to work together as, let's say,
colleagues. how would we do it together? What
would we together consider to be on time? And
so we would co -create those rules together so
that if you and I ever serve together, we'll
say, okay, Dorothy, to be on time, let's show
up at 1045. I might be, I, Kyla, might be here
at 1030, but if we can agree 1045, let's do that
together. Sure. And we'll say, sure. Right. Right.
Yeah. But you're not imposing your rules on me
and I'm not imposing my rules on you. Sure. We're
actually having a conversation and we're going
to co -create it together. Sure. Yeah. And so
then I think it seems like it then requires both
some sort of pre -existing relationship where
like we. This would not be my first conversation
with you, hopefully. And yeah, that attitude
of curiosity and non -judgment is so key. Yes,
exactly. You nailed it. Yeah. So if folks are
wanting to sort of... dive more into this world
and figure out how do I do intercultural competency
well? How do I do this? Like what are some resources
or next steps? Yeah, great question. So at the
TIM Center, we do an assessment. So if you've
ever done Myers -Briggs, those kinds of DISC,
those kinds of assessment, this is similar. So
we do an assessment. It's 50 questions. It's
online. And it measures how you are handling
that tension. Okay. Right. Just like we had talked
about that discount. Are you squishing it down?
Are you avoiding it? Are you leaning in with
curiosity? So that's an assessment tool that
you can do. A different assessment tool. equally
as good is to measure your skill level, your
knowledge, and your strategy. So there's two
different assessment tools. I like to use the
analogy of a personal trainer. Let's say you're
hiring me as your personal trainer. I can give
you a workout plan and you can do it for eight
weeks. But if that's all I give you, then once
you stop doing those exercises and I haven't
changed your attitude about food, about sleep,
about... you deal with stress you're going to
go right back to your old Sure. Bold habits.
So that's the difference between these two assessments.
Okay. One is about transforming your mindset.
Right. The other one is about changing your behaviors.
Okay. You actually need both, but depending on
where the leader is, we can have a discussion
about which of the assessments they want to do
first. Sure. Because we really do need both.
Sure. Okay. Yeah. And then, of course, there
are books that you can read. Okay. Perhaps I
can give those to you and you can put them as
your podcast notes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, some
books. Yeah. For recommendations. Okay. cool
okay are there any that come to mind for you
right now or yeah so uh i like uh many colors
by sun chan raw he is an american uh korean theologian
and professor uh there is a great book if you
want to go even deeper on contextualizing theology
because we all approach scripture we don't approach
it empty -handed we approach it through our cultural
lens yeah so that's a great book and if you really
want to be poked yeah uh there There's a great
book on our understanding of... indigenous Christianity.
And it's called Rescuing the Gospel from the
Cowboys. So it's a great title by Richard Twist.
So yeah, those might be some books, depending
where you're coming in on the conversation from,
that you want to look into. Yeah, no, that's
awesome. Okay. Yeah. Is there anything else you
wanted to sort of leave us with? Any closing
thoughts as we think about, yeah, what's important
in this realm of intercultural competency? Yeah,
I want to, I would say, I've been thinking a
lot about the Church of Antioch. a place where
people were coming in from all parts of the world.
And yet with Christ at the center, with all those
social categories gone now, right? There's neither
Greek nor Jew, male or female, slave or free,
right? The only term to call this new group that
emerged was... christian yeah and so i would
say that embedded into the word christian so
if we consider ourselves to be christ followers
yeah embedded into that name is our multicultural
intercultural dna sure right to be a christian
is to be people where the social categories are
eliminated they're like obliterated and there
is no other word to describe us than christ followers
and so i go back again to our ephesians moment
this is our ephesians moment sure let's let's
um be that body of christ an alternative that
our culture is looking for for sure where everybody
belongs yeah that's awesome that's so beautiful
i think to think about especially Yeah, like
the ways that our faith is enriched by the diversity
of it. And yeah, to sort of go back to where
Rob began our whole teaching series was like,
this was God's plan from the very beginning that
we all get to be part of this diverse family
of God and learn from each other and reflect.
the fullness of God in our diversity. Yes, 100%.
For sure. Well said. Yeah. Well, thank you so
much for joining me, Dorothy. Yeah. This has
been a really good conversation. Yes, it has
been. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And thank you.
for tuning in to this week's episode of Trinity
Talks. I hope that you have found some little
nuggets to be able to grasp onto and to think
about how are you affected by the culture in
which you have sort of been raised in, but then
also how can you become more curious about the
culture of your neighbors? And we will see you
again next week.