WEBVTT 00:00:04.159 --> 00:00:06.780 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity 00:00:06.780 --> 00:00:09.699 Talks. My name is Kyla and I am excited to be 00:00:09.699 --> 00:00:12.939 joined by Dorothy Peng who works at the Tyndale 00:00:12.939 --> 00:00:15.119 Intercultural Ministry Center and we're going 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:17.260 to chat a little bit more about what it means 00:00:17.260 --> 00:00:20.920 for us as Christians to live in inter... cultural 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:23.800 context and how we do that really well. So thank 00:00:23.800 --> 00:00:25.920 you for joining me, Dorothy. Thanks. I'm excited 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:27.820 to be here, Kyla. Yeah. Do you want to maybe 00:00:27.820 --> 00:00:29.879 start by introducing yourself a little bit, telling 00:00:29.879 --> 00:00:31.940 us a bit about who you are and how you got to 00:00:31.940 --> 00:00:34.920 this work with the Tim Centre? Yeah, sure. So 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:37.560 I'm a second generation Chinese Canadian. My 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:41.359 parents are immigrants from Hong Kong. They came 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:44.939 to this country in 1967 when the government first 00:00:44.939 --> 00:00:48.020 opened the policy for immigration based on a 00:00:48.020 --> 00:00:51.590 point system. So they landed in Saskatchewan 00:00:51.590 --> 00:00:55.469 of all places. So yeah, my mother did not speak 00:00:55.469 --> 00:00:57.549 a word of English when she arrived in this country. 00:00:57.750 --> 00:01:02.530 And Saskatchewan was 97 % Euro -Canadian at that 00:01:02.530 --> 00:01:05.510 time. I came along about a year later, and so 00:01:05.510 --> 00:01:08.810 I grew up in this Chinese cocoon for the first 00:01:08.810 --> 00:01:11.810 five years of my life. Spoke only Chinese, ate 00:01:11.810 --> 00:01:14.810 only Chinese food, and just learned all the mannerisms 00:01:14.810 --> 00:01:17.049 of what it means to be a Chinese daughter. Sure. 00:01:17.170 --> 00:01:19.829 And then I went to public school, and my whole 00:01:19.829 --> 00:01:22.989 world changed. Sure. So I learned from a very 00:01:22.989 --> 00:01:26.930 early age how to be bicultural, meaning... A 00:01:26.930 --> 00:01:30.150 certain set of behaviors at home was considered 00:01:30.150 --> 00:01:33.689 respectful. And then a certain set of behaviors 00:01:33.689 --> 00:01:38.469 at school had to be adapted. And so I tried, 00:01:38.590 --> 00:01:42.590 I learned really early in life how to step in 00:01:42.590 --> 00:01:45.609 one culture and then step into a different culture 00:01:45.609 --> 00:01:49.370 and to operate in two very diverse cultures. 00:01:49.609 --> 00:01:55.099 And to read the underlying. cultural dynamics. 00:01:55.140 --> 00:01:58.260 You know, all those unspoken rules of what proper 00:01:58.260 --> 00:02:01.959 behavior is and how behavior would be interpreted. 00:02:02.180 --> 00:02:04.519 So I learned that at a very early age. Okay. 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:08.500 Yeah. Yeah. And so as I grew up, I went to law 00:02:08.500 --> 00:02:10.919 school and then eventually the Lord led me into 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:13.580 ministry. So I co -led a large intercultural 00:02:13.580 --> 00:02:16.939 church and then I also then moved into Tyndale. 00:02:17.099 --> 00:02:20.360 Okay. So Tyndale has a division that is outward 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:22.699 facing. We work with leaders who are leading 00:02:22.699 --> 00:02:25.659 in intercultural spaces and we help them develop 00:02:25.659 --> 00:02:29.879 skills and mindsets about how to navigate all 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:32.580 those cultural dynamics. So it's such a timely 00:02:32.580 --> 00:02:34.979 conversation in Canada right now. it's a privilege 00:02:34.979 --> 00:02:37.199 for me to be in the middle of all those conversations 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.639 yeah yeah and i think neat that like it comes 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:43.259 both from your like passion and the sort of the 00:02:43.259 --> 00:02:45.020 skills that god has given you but also like this 00:02:45.020 --> 00:02:47.620 deeply personal story too yeah right yeah because 00:02:47.620 --> 00:02:50.039 god doesn't waste anything yeah right he always 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:52.539 connects all the dots and so whatever our experiences 00:02:52.539 --> 00:02:56.259 are he uses them all for his glory for sure yeah 00:02:56.259 --> 00:02:59.419 so When you think about the Canadian context, 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:02.340 why do you think it's important for followers 00:03:02.340 --> 00:03:05.319 of Jesus in Canada to be thinking about intercultural 00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:08.259 ministry? Yeah, so there is a missiologist, his 00:03:08.259 --> 00:03:11.099 name is Andrew Walls, and he talks about how 00:03:11.099 --> 00:03:13.879 this is our Ephesians moment. He's referring 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:17.800 to Ephesians 2, where different countries and 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:20.659 people groups are coming together and the walls 00:03:20.659 --> 00:03:23.099 that divide us are coming down because we are 00:03:23.099 --> 00:03:26.379 centering on Jesus. And so I think that is... 00:03:26.509 --> 00:03:29.569 Canada's moment right now. It is our Ephesians 00:03:29.569 --> 00:03:32.909 moment. God is bringing the different people 00:03:32.909 --> 00:03:36.930 groups from around the world to Canada. Now, 00:03:37.069 --> 00:03:39.930 why is he doing that? I think Canadian churches 00:03:39.930 --> 00:03:42.889 need to ask ourselves, what is God doing and 00:03:42.889 --> 00:03:44.949 how can we join him in that? Because this is 00:03:44.949 --> 00:03:48.389 not a fluke. It's not by accident. God is strategically 00:03:48.389 --> 00:03:51.409 bringing people groups from around the world 00:03:51.409 --> 00:03:55.979 to Canada. I think our culture is looking for 00:03:55.979 --> 00:03:59.580 an alternate to itself. In other words, you turn 00:03:59.580 --> 00:04:03.800 on the news, we see nothing but hatred, division, 00:04:04.259 --> 00:04:10.240 silos, oppression, subordination. And so I think 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.819 our culture is looking for an alternate to itself. 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:16.860 I think our culture is desperately needing an 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:19.480 alternate to itself. What is that alternative? 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:24.160 It's the church. It's the body of Christ, right? 00:04:24.220 --> 00:04:26.839 Where we have shared belonging. It is the body 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:29.500 of Christ where through Jesus, we are a family 00:04:29.500 --> 00:04:33.220 together. Right. Yeah. The church done well, 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:36.160 I think I would say. Yes, exactly. I think there 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:38.339 are ways and spaces sometimes where the church 00:04:38.339 --> 00:04:41.939 can perpetuate those silos, but like... The work 00:04:41.939 --> 00:04:43.920 that you're doing is to try and bring all of 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:46.379 those pieces together, I think. Yes. And so that's 00:04:46.379 --> 00:04:50.740 the encouraging thing for me. Leaders are calling. 00:04:50.939 --> 00:04:53.139 Leaders are saying, help me see my blind spot. 00:04:53.220 --> 00:04:56.720 So look at me. I am a woman. I'm a person of 00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:59.920 color. And the leaders who are calling me are 00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:04.660 typically older men, typically European background, 00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:08.379 asking. me right to help them see their blind 00:05:08.379 --> 00:05:11.180 spots right that is a type of christ -centered 00:05:11.180 --> 00:05:14.259 humility that only the holy spirit can prompt 00:05:14.259 --> 00:05:16.540 so that is like we should be encouraged that 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:20.560 god is working yeah yeah and so on that like 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:22.360 humility piece like we've had a conversation 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.100 before where you talked about not just being 00:05:25.100 --> 00:05:28.180 like consumers of a culture, but being like humble 00:05:28.180 --> 00:05:30.259 learners in a culture. So can you like tease 00:05:30.259 --> 00:05:32.360 apart those differences for us? And what does 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:34.319 that look like? Sure. So for your listeners, 00:05:34.379 --> 00:05:36.540 it might be easy to think of two C words. So 00:05:36.540 --> 00:05:40.240 consumer of culture or being curious about culture. 00:05:40.339 --> 00:05:44.259 So I would say lean into curiosity. So some of 00:05:44.259 --> 00:05:45.959 the things that churches love to do these days, 00:05:45.980 --> 00:05:48.139 and it's wonderful that they do it, is they have 00:05:48.139 --> 00:05:51.680 these multicultural food. festivals, right? Where 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:53.720 they ask their congregants to come together, 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:57.120 everyone bring a piece of some food to share 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.420 from their cultural heritage. And I think those 00:06:00.420 --> 00:06:03.139 are wonderful gatherings. I think they're just 00:06:03.139 --> 00:06:07.240 fun and it brings the church together. I would 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:10.540 say push it a little bit further instead of, 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:13.279 in addition to having all the fun of going from 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:16.279 booth to booth, enjoying the food and the music. 00:06:16.939 --> 00:06:20.560 Go with curiosity. Ask the person who is offering 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:23.899 the dish. what is the story behind this dish? 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:26.959 Right. Why is this meaningful to you? One church 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:29.500 I know did a dumpling night. And they define 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:32.779 dumpling as anything with something that is wrapped. 00:06:33.060 --> 00:06:35.279 So it doesn't have to be, you know, the dumplings 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:38.579 that say in my Chinese culture, it's pork wrapped 00:06:38.579 --> 00:06:41.519 in like wonton wrappers. It could be a taco. 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:44.560 It could be an apple blossom where you have apples 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:47.300 within a pastry. Anything that has, that's being 00:06:47.300 --> 00:06:48.720 wrapped by something. Something wrapped in something 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:51.839 else. Yes. So every culture, has something like 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:54.660 that. Sure. And as they did that night, they 00:06:54.660 --> 00:06:56.699 had people go up to the microphone and share 00:06:56.699 --> 00:07:00.819 the story of why that dish was meaningful. So 00:07:00.819 --> 00:07:03.980 in my heritage, dumplings, we serve them every 00:07:03.980 --> 00:07:07.019 year on Chinese New Year's. Right. And we don't, 00:07:07.019 --> 00:07:10.220 we wrap them as a family. So we put a big vat, 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:14.360 this big pot of minced pork with vegetables in 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:16.699 it right in the center. Yeah. And everyone has 00:07:16.699 --> 00:07:18.899 wrappers. Yeah. And there's a certain way to 00:07:18.899 --> 00:07:20.870 wrap it because everyone. has their own technique 00:07:20.870 --> 00:07:24.069 okay and we chat and we laugh and we tell stories 00:07:24.069 --> 00:07:26.829 and then we cook all the dumplings and we serve 00:07:26.829 --> 00:07:29.660 it to each other And the shape of the dumplings 00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:33.319 is significant. Okay. See, in the old times, 00:07:33.459 --> 00:07:36.319 Chinese money was shaped like those dumplings. 00:07:36.420 --> 00:07:38.120 Or I should say the dumplings are shaped like 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:40.899 the Chinese money. And so when we offer it to 00:07:40.899 --> 00:07:43.060 each other, it's a sign of saying, I wish you 00:07:43.060 --> 00:07:45.579 good fortune in the new year. So now that you 00:07:45.579 --> 00:07:48.259 know that's my story, when you enjoy our dumplings, 00:07:48.459 --> 00:07:50.779 you know, right? I'm wishing you good fortune. 00:07:50.939 --> 00:07:53.319 I'm actually blessing you and your family for 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:55.899 this new year. Yeah. It brings a whole new layer 00:07:55.899 --> 00:07:57.879 of meaning to it. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And 00:07:57.879 --> 00:07:59.699 you feel like you know me a little bit better. 00:07:59.740 --> 00:08:02.319 And if you shared your story, I'd feel like I 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:04.100 knew you a little bit better. Right. And that's 00:08:04.100 --> 00:08:06.699 how shared belonging with Christ at the center 00:08:06.699 --> 00:08:09.800 happens in the family of God. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. 00:08:09.819 --> 00:08:12.740 So then it requires us to sort of start with 00:08:12.740 --> 00:08:14.560 that posture of humility and that willingness 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:17.180 to ask questions and that sort of thing. Exactly. 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:18.779 As opposed to just like, these are delicious 00:08:18.779 --> 00:08:21.339 dumplings. Yeah. Like, tell me about them. Yeah, 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.959 exactly. Yeah. So move from consuming to curiosity. 00:08:25.060 --> 00:08:27.720 Yeah, exactly. I think sometimes when we think 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:30.240 about intercultural conversations and contexts, 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.340 we think, OK, I need to learn about the other 00:08:33.340 --> 00:08:36.340 person or the other culture. But one of the things, 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:38.440 again, that I've heard you talk about is the 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.159 connection between intercultural awareness and 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.669 self -awareness. Yeah. And so like, how does 00:08:43.669 --> 00:08:46.950 knowing ourselves fit into all of that? Yeah. 00:08:47.029 --> 00:08:49.690 So self -awareness is actually the first step 00:08:49.690 --> 00:08:52.870 to developing intercultural competency. So we 00:08:52.870 --> 00:08:56.090 all view the world through a certain lens. And 00:08:56.090 --> 00:08:58.490 sure, we've gone so used to that lens, we don't 00:08:58.490 --> 00:09:01.409 even see it anymore. You know, sometimes we compare 00:09:01.409 --> 00:09:04.450 it to a fish in a fishbowl. The fish doesn't 00:09:04.450 --> 00:09:07.049 see the water that it's swimming in. But someone 00:09:07.049 --> 00:09:10.470 from the outside can see the color of the water. 00:09:10.549 --> 00:09:13.090 And if you put a new fish into the fishbowl, 00:09:13.090 --> 00:09:17.110 the new fish can definitely taste and see and 00:09:17.110 --> 00:09:21.610 experience that water. But it's become invisible 00:09:21.610 --> 00:09:24.850 to the original fish, right? So that's what I 00:09:24.850 --> 00:09:28.029 mean by we need to start with self -awareness. 00:09:28.190 --> 00:09:33.309 So ask yourself, how did I learn how to be this 00:09:33.309 --> 00:09:35.970 way? So sometimes when I do consulting, I'll 00:09:35.970 --> 00:09:38.870 say to someone, what does it mean to be on time? 00:09:39.230 --> 00:09:41.350 right and some people will say well being on 00:09:41.350 --> 00:09:44.409 time would be to arrive 10 minutes early have 00:09:44.409 --> 00:09:46.889 everything set out and then when the time for 00:09:46.889 --> 00:09:49.389 the meeting comes i'm ready to start so all the 00:09:49.389 --> 00:09:51.789 chit chat is done in the first 10 minutes before 00:09:51.789 --> 00:09:55.110 the meeting starts so to be on time is to be 00:09:55.110 --> 00:09:59.970 10 minutes early in my culture being on time 00:09:59.970 --> 00:10:03.549 for say for church means rolling into the parking 00:10:03.549 --> 00:10:06.779 lot at at 11 a .m., let's say the start. And 00:10:06.779 --> 00:10:09.360 so even though it takes time for me to walk into 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:12.740 the parking lot, get the kids settled into Sunday 00:10:12.740 --> 00:10:16.279 school, I am still on time because I rolled into 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:18.960 the parking lot at 11 o 'clock. So different 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:21.799 cultures, but where did I learn that? So where 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:26.139 did you learn what it means to be on time? That's 00:10:26.139 --> 00:10:30.179 culture. That's the unspoken rule of how to be 00:10:30.179 --> 00:10:34.399 and how to behave in your world. And so you have 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:37.080 to, so starting with self -awareness, knowing 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:40.539 where you learned those rules that are normal 00:10:40.539 --> 00:10:43.860 to you, that's the first step to developing a 00:10:43.860 --> 00:10:46.080 cultural awareness and intercultural competency. 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.159 And I think it's interesting that like you use 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:51.039 this example of like being on time because I 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:52.720 think people just don't think of that as part 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:55.100 of culture, right? We often think of culture 00:10:55.100 --> 00:10:57.100 as like the way that I dress, or the food that 00:10:57.100 --> 00:10:59.220 I eat or the language that I speak. But like 00:10:59.220 --> 00:11:02.419 it is these other how we show up in the world. 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:05.220 Exactly. Part of our culture. Yes. So sometimes 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:07.720 when I'm teaching, I'll use the iceberg metaphor. 00:11:08.340 --> 00:11:10.639 Right. So the things that you mentioned about 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:13.360 culture, dress, food, music, that's all above 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.000 the waterline. Yeah. But there's so much more 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.919 deeper culture that we need to dig for. And that 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:21.480 is cultural awareness. Right. Yeah. That's intercultural 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:24.120 competency. And I guess then the connection to 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:26.720 self -awareness being like. that my understanding 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:29.039 of this thing is different than the next person's 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.000 understanding of this thing. And maybe you didn't 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.200 even realize that to start with, right? Like 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:36.519 I just assumed everybody thinks that being on 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:39.620 time is being 10 minutes early. Yes. That's not 00:11:39.620 --> 00:11:42.700 it. Exactly. Yeah. So sometimes I encourage, 00:11:42.899 --> 00:11:45.419 I encounter people who say, well, I have no culture. 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:48.799 Right. And I, and I, so when they say that, there's 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.679 no judgment there. It just tells me that there's 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:55.309 a person who's at the beginning. journey a beginning 00:11:55.309 --> 00:11:57.950 of their journey of cultural awareness and self 00:11:57.950 --> 00:12:01.090 -awareness because we all have culture sure so 00:12:01.090 --> 00:12:04.230 yeah yeah so what would you say in your work 00:12:04.230 --> 00:12:06.289 are some of the biggest barriers that people 00:12:06.289 --> 00:12:09.509 experience to like coming to better self -awareness 00:12:09.509 --> 00:12:12.570 or intercultural competency? Yeah, I would say 00:12:12.570 --> 00:12:16.330 the biggest barrier is discomfort. When we encounter 00:12:16.330 --> 00:12:18.809 someone who is different from us, someone who 00:12:18.809 --> 00:12:22.809 has a different set of unspoken rules of how 00:12:22.809 --> 00:12:25.929 to behave in this world, how to understand this 00:12:25.929 --> 00:12:30.809 world, there's tension. it's really uncomfortable. 00:12:31.289 --> 00:12:34.769 And as church leaders, as Christ followers, we 00:12:34.769 --> 00:12:37.970 just want to get along. We just want harmony 00:12:37.970 --> 00:12:42.450 in our relationship. So one of the common ways 00:12:42.450 --> 00:12:45.159 to deal with that tension is just to... push 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:47.639 it down sure we're not going to deal with it 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:50.080 right and kyla and i can find something else 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.200 in common i'm just not going to talk about why 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.460 she is always late for our meetings right and 00:12:55.460 --> 00:12:57.240 you're not going to talk to me about how i'm 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:00.120 always frowning at you when you walk in on time 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.159 and you're on time right yeah we're just not 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:04.039 going to talk about that sure and so i think 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:09.000 the discomfort and the inability to work through 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:12.360 the tension that can be the biggest hurdle for 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:16.500 how we can operate as the family of god right 00:13:16.500 --> 00:13:19.240 because we're really there's now this unspoken 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:22.740 barrier between us that we're just tolerating 00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:25.299 each other's business uh differences instead 00:13:25.299 --> 00:13:27.240 of actually leaning in and say tell me about 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.360 that right where did you learn that where did 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.460 you learn that being on time is to be 10 minutes 00:13:31.460 --> 00:13:33.559 early right and dorothy where did you learn that 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:36.000 being on time means to roll in just at the specified 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.440 time right like we need to understand each other 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:41.700 right to have shared belonging and if you were 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:43.539 having that conversation so if that was a real 00:13:43.539 --> 00:13:47.580 situation and and you wanted to ask me okay how 00:13:47.580 --> 00:13:49.980 how did you learn to always be 10 minutes like 00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:52.360 is that how you would word that question or like 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:54.480 how how would you start that conversation yeah 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.759 yeah so i would say kyla i noticed that when 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:00.440 our when we have Let's say worship service at 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:04.200 11 o 'clock. You're here by 1030. I'm really 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.340 curious. Tell me about that. Where did you learn 00:14:06.340 --> 00:14:09.580 to come in so early? I would say so early. And 00:14:09.580 --> 00:14:11.899 then you might say, Dorothy, that's not early. 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:14.519 That's on time, right? And then we would have 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:17.039 a conversation about it. No judgment. Hopefully 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.379 some laughs and some smiles. And then we go, 00:14:19.460 --> 00:14:22.580 oh, okay. Then we would say, well, you know, 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:24.919 if we're going to work together as, let's say, 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:29.120 colleagues. how would we do it together? What 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.259 would we together consider to be on time? And 00:14:32.259 --> 00:14:35.539 so we would co -create those rules together so 00:14:35.539 --> 00:14:37.320 that if you and I ever serve together, we'll 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:40.159 say, okay, Dorothy, to be on time, let's show 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:42.799 up at 1045. I might be, I, Kyla, might be here 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:46.200 at 1030, but if we can agree 1045, let's do that 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:48.340 together. Sure. And we'll say, sure. Right. Right. 00:14:48.340 --> 00:14:50.700 Yeah. But you're not imposing your rules on me 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:53.919 and I'm not imposing my rules on you. Sure. We're 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:55.720 actually having a conversation and we're going 00:14:55.720 --> 00:14:58.259 to co -create it together. Sure. Yeah. And so 00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:01.360 then I think it seems like it then requires both 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.879 some sort of pre -existing relationship where 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:06.909 like we. This would not be my first conversation 00:15:06.909 --> 00:15:09.870 with you, hopefully. And yeah, that attitude 00:15:09.870 --> 00:15:13.730 of curiosity and non -judgment is so key. Yes, 00:15:13.750 --> 00:15:16.970 exactly. You nailed it. Yeah. So if folks are 00:15:16.970 --> 00:15:20.570 wanting to sort of... dive more into this world 00:15:20.570 --> 00:15:23.570 and figure out how do I do intercultural competency 00:15:23.570 --> 00:15:26.610 well? How do I do this? Like what are some resources 00:15:26.610 --> 00:15:30.029 or next steps? Yeah, great question. So at the 00:15:30.029 --> 00:15:32.149 TIM Center, we do an assessment. So if you've 00:15:32.149 --> 00:15:35.870 ever done Myers -Briggs, those kinds of DISC, 00:15:35.909 --> 00:15:38.389 those kinds of assessment, this is similar. So 00:15:38.389 --> 00:15:40.970 we do an assessment. It's 50 questions. It's 00:15:40.970 --> 00:15:44.789 online. And it measures how you are handling 00:15:44.789 --> 00:15:46.990 that tension. Okay. Right. Just like we had talked 00:15:46.990 --> 00:15:49.919 about that discount. Are you squishing it down? 00:15:50.100 --> 00:15:52.320 Are you avoiding it? Are you leaning in with 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.940 curiosity? So that's an assessment tool that 00:15:54.940 --> 00:15:58.090 you can do. A different assessment tool. equally 00:15:58.090 --> 00:16:02.509 as good is to measure your skill level, your 00:16:02.509 --> 00:16:05.409 knowledge, and your strategy. So there's two 00:16:05.409 --> 00:16:08.210 different assessment tools. I like to use the 00:16:08.210 --> 00:16:10.110 analogy of a personal trainer. Let's say you're 00:16:10.110 --> 00:16:14.029 hiring me as your personal trainer. I can give 00:16:14.029 --> 00:16:16.549 you a workout plan and you can do it for eight 00:16:16.549 --> 00:16:20.309 weeks. But if that's all I give you, then once 00:16:20.309 --> 00:16:22.690 you stop doing those exercises and I haven't 00:16:22.690 --> 00:16:25.789 changed your attitude about food, about sleep, 00:16:26.009 --> 00:16:28.700 about... you deal with stress you're going to 00:16:28.700 --> 00:16:30.909 go right back to your old Sure. Bold habits. 00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:33.830 So that's the difference between these two assessments. 00:16:33.970 --> 00:16:36.629 Okay. One is about transforming your mindset. 00:16:36.929 --> 00:16:39.389 Right. The other one is about changing your behaviors. 00:16:39.610 --> 00:16:42.769 Okay. You actually need both, but depending on 00:16:42.769 --> 00:16:44.830 where the leader is, we can have a discussion 00:16:44.830 --> 00:16:46.970 about which of the assessments they want to do 00:16:46.970 --> 00:16:49.250 first. Sure. Because we really do need both. 00:16:49.429 --> 00:16:51.470 Sure. Okay. Yeah. And then, of course, there 00:16:51.470 --> 00:16:53.990 are books that you can read. Okay. Perhaps I 00:16:53.990 --> 00:16:55.389 can give those to you and you can put them as 00:16:55.389 --> 00:16:57.549 your podcast notes. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, some 00:16:57.549 --> 00:16:59.559 books. Yeah. For recommendations. Okay. cool 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:01.779 okay are there any that come to mind for you 00:17:01.779 --> 00:17:05.660 right now or yeah so uh i like uh many colors 00:17:05.660 --> 00:17:09.779 by sun chan raw he is an american uh korean theologian 00:17:09.779 --> 00:17:13.000 and professor uh there is a great book if you 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:15.960 want to go even deeper on contextualizing theology 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.740 because we all approach scripture we don't approach 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:22.319 it empty -handed we approach it through our cultural 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:26.380 lens yeah so that's a great book and if you really 00:17:26.380 --> 00:17:29.140 want to be poked yeah uh there There's a great 00:17:29.140 --> 00:17:35.200 book on our understanding of... indigenous Christianity. 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.019 And it's called Rescuing the Gospel from the 00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:42.160 Cowboys. So it's a great title by Richard Twist. 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:44.299 So yeah, those might be some books, depending 00:17:44.299 --> 00:17:46.339 where you're coming in on the conversation from, 00:17:46.460 --> 00:17:49.059 that you want to look into. Yeah, no, that's 00:17:49.059 --> 00:17:51.420 awesome. Okay. Yeah. Is there anything else you 00:17:51.420 --> 00:17:53.019 wanted to sort of leave us with? Any closing 00:17:53.019 --> 00:17:55.240 thoughts as we think about, yeah, what's important 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:58.079 in this realm of intercultural competency? Yeah, 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:01.579 I want to, I would say, I've been thinking a 00:18:01.579 --> 00:18:05.369 lot about the Church of Antioch. a place where 00:18:05.369 --> 00:18:08.809 people were coming in from all parts of the world. 00:18:09.009 --> 00:18:13.049 And yet with Christ at the center, with all those 00:18:13.049 --> 00:18:15.829 social categories gone now, right? There's neither 00:18:15.829 --> 00:18:18.910 Greek nor Jew, male or female, slave or free, 00:18:19.049 --> 00:18:23.549 right? The only term to call this new group that 00:18:23.549 --> 00:18:26.859 emerged was... christian yeah and so i would 00:18:26.859 --> 00:18:30.220 say that embedded into the word christian so 00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:32.259 if we consider ourselves to be christ followers 00:18:32.259 --> 00:18:37.539 yeah embedded into that name is our multicultural 00:18:37.539 --> 00:18:42.079 intercultural dna sure right to be a christian 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:46.109 is to be people where the social categories are 00:18:46.109 --> 00:18:48.589 eliminated they're like obliterated and there 00:18:48.589 --> 00:18:52.950 is no other word to describe us than christ followers 00:18:52.950 --> 00:18:55.630 and so i go back again to our ephesians moment 00:18:55.630 --> 00:18:59.390 this is our ephesians moment sure let's let's 00:18:59.390 --> 00:19:02.089 um be that body of christ an alternative that 00:19:02.089 --> 00:19:04.069 our culture is looking for for sure where everybody 00:19:04.069 --> 00:19:06.569 belongs yeah that's awesome that's so beautiful 00:19:06.569 --> 00:19:09.849 i think to think about especially Yeah, like 00:19:09.849 --> 00:19:14.369 the ways that our faith is enriched by the diversity 00:19:14.369 --> 00:19:18.130 of it. And yeah, to sort of go back to where 00:19:18.130 --> 00:19:20.650 Rob began our whole teaching series was like, 00:19:20.690 --> 00:19:23.269 this was God's plan from the very beginning that 00:19:23.269 --> 00:19:25.970 we all get to be part of this diverse family 00:19:25.970 --> 00:19:28.950 of God and learn from each other and reflect. 00:19:29.589 --> 00:19:33.109 the fullness of God in our diversity. Yes, 100%. 00:19:33.109 --> 00:19:35.450 For sure. Well said. Yeah. Well, thank you so 00:19:35.450 --> 00:19:37.670 much for joining me, Dorothy. Yeah. This has 00:19:37.670 --> 00:19:40.130 been a really good conversation. Yes, it has 00:19:40.130 --> 00:19:42.369 been. Thanks for having me. Yeah. And thank you. 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:44.920 for tuning in to this week's episode of Trinity 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.680 Talks. I hope that you have found some little 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:50.160 nuggets to be able to grasp onto and to think 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.359 about how are you affected by the culture in 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.180 which you have sort of been raised in, but then 00:19:56.180 --> 00:19:58.519 also how can you become more curious about the 00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:00.980 culture of your neighbors? And we will see you 00:20:00.980 --> 00:20:01.579 again next week.