Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm really
glad that you are joining us. I am excited about
this conversation. I'm welcoming Alex Lee, who
is a PhD candidate at Fuller and works at the
Tyndale Intercultural Ministry Center. And I
think what I'm most excited about in this conversation
is to get your perspective on interfaith conversations
and on what it looks like for us to live the
gospel in really diverse contexts and worlds.
Yeah. So thank you so much for joining me. Well,
thanks so much for having me, Kyla. It's a pleasure
to be here. Yeah. Do you want to just introduce
yourself a little bit, say a bit about your background
and what's brought you here? Yeah. I mean, so
you mentioned that a lot of my work is through
the Tyndale Intercultural Ministry Center. But
before this, I was a pastor for about 15 years.
And most of those years were spent overseas in
various contexts in East Asia, Central Asia.
And so working with local believers and neighbors
who may not have ever stepped foot in a church
or feel any good reason to. That's part of my
ministry and pastoral context. So I'm based out
in Markham now. My wife, Vanessa, and our two
kids. Okay, great. So what sort of brought you
from that pastoral world into this work in the
Tim Center in, you know, studying for your PhD?
Right. Yeah. Well, when I came back from ministering
overseas, It was an awesome time. It was a blessing
in many, many ways. But I also realized that
there were questions that had come up that I
had to wrestle through that coming back and pursuing
the PhD gave me an opportunity to dive head into.
Sure. And to do that at an academic level. But
I think the interesting thing about pursuing
your PhD at a seminary is that it does offer
you plenty of opportunities for spiritual growth.
formation along the way. So even thinking about
mission, um, my PhD is in missiology, um, to,
to engage that both academically and it's theology,
it's history, but also how that shapes us as
the people of God or how that shapes me as a
minister becomes, um, front and center. So that,
that happened first. And then when I got connected
with folks at the Tim center, um, that there
was just a, I think a convergence of, of interests
and passions there. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No,
that's that's really interesting. So then like
when you think about this work of pastoring overseas,
like what what are some of the pieces that like
stand out to you from that? Like what just describe
like what that experience was like? Sure. I think
when I first began my pastoral journey, especially
in the overseas context, it was still as a young
man. I was not married at the time, pretty much
fresh out of college, in fact. And so I. had
a lot of ideas and ideals about what that should
look like sure and a certain understanding that
This is the gospel. These are folks who don't
have the gospel, who need the gospel. And here's
me and maybe my team. And we're going to come
and bring it and offer it to them. And I think
over the course of years, even in the first year
or two, really in the first few months, you begin
to realize it's not that simple. It's not that
easy. It's messier than that. It's more complex.
But also, if you can hang on. through that messiness
and through that discomfort and through this
shift from certainty to mystery, then it becomes
more beautiful. Sure. Yeah. And even as I was
communicating in today's sermon, this openness
to being surprised by a God whose spirit continues
to work. In the world and sometimes even beyond
the four walls of the church. Sure. And to to
receive from others this mutual sharing and giving
of, yes, the gospel, but to hear it preached
back to you with some with from a different angle.
Sure. That's all been very life giving. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. I think that's that's really
interesting just to like reflect on. Yeah. Maybe
the ways that we go into mission and ministry
versus like, you know, what, what are the opportunities
that like God is already there. Right. And so
like what, stopping to ask what is God already
doing in this context. Right. I think is, is
super important. Absolutely. Yeah. And so then
in a lot of your work, as I understand was in
like Muslim majority contexts. Right. So like
how did interfaith dialogue like show up and
like, what was the role of that in your ministry?
Well, a lot of it is this dynamic of hospitality
in which you are sometimes a host, in which oftentimes
you're a guest. And fundamentally, you know,
you're for someone like me who's coming from
North America into any country that's not in
North America. I am at the baseline guest. Sure.
And so but more concretely, I think this give
and take between having folks come into our spaces,
but then also being. vulnerable enough to step
outside of one's comfort zone. Sure. Because,
you know, one of the things that's interesting
about hospitality is that it can still take on
these power dynamics. For sure. Where if you're
often, if not always, the one hosting, you're
still setting the table, right? The agenda is
still dependent on the host. Sure. And so to,
I think, practice hospitality well, what we learned
was that We can't just always be the ones in
control. And in many ways, this is very basic,
fundamental stuff. But again, as somebody who
had to learn along the way, as someone who started
off as a young man, this was actually quite...
uh, formative earth shattering for me at the
beginning to learn how to receive from others
as well. And to be a guest and to not set the
table, um, but to what, to eat what is served
and to take what is given. Sure. So like, what
does that look like in like really practical
terms? Sure. Yeah. I think in like in, um, let's
put it back into our. Sure. I think you had this
awesome graphic at the beginning of like how
diverse Mississauga is. I learned a lot. I did
a little bit of research, too, given my interest
in Christian Muslim dialogue. And I noticed how
in Mississauga, almost one in five residents
here are from a Muslim background, about 17 percent.
OK. And that offers a church like Trinity, I
think, ample opportunities to. to be a neighbor.
And perhaps you are already engaged in that in
some way, if not as an institution, then individually,
because if you're a parent, chances are your
kids' friends are Muslim and the other coaches
on the house league baseball team, because that's
what I do, they might be from a Muslim background
or a Hindu background or whatever other non -Christian
background it may be. And so I think what I would
want to emphasize is that practically a lot of
this, it doesn't have to remain. It shouldn't
remain in the realm of academia or for the experts
to engage in. Every person is invited to practice
interfaith dialogue. We might even just call
it interfaith relationships. And that I think
involves the humility to just be who you are,
to be vulnerable, to. make friends with folks
that might not always be in the church context.
So I would, I would really emphasize that capacity
and skill of just getting to know folks who are
not like yourself. Sure. Especially in a place
like Mississauga, Markham's not too different
either, where literally our neighbors, our coworkers
and so forth are. people from a different background
religiously. Um, and I think increasingly in
Canada statistics, Canada also shows that this,
um, involves particularly our Muslim sisters
and brothers, our neighbors. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
So then like if interfaith dialogue and relationships
are about, you know, the people who coach baseball
with you or your coworkers or whatever, like
does. interfaith dialogue like i think that phrase
makes me think well we need to be talking about
faith but like is that true or can we have interfaith
dialogue where we're like just doing life i don't
know yeah that's a yeah that's a great distinction
and i appreciate you bringing that up yeah um
yes because dialogue right it's it's an exchange
of words right but dialogue it is At various
levels, to be sure. And I think shared life,
shared practice. For instance, I think churches
and mosques, as an example, can frequently find
points of common ground when it comes to issues
that concern the community. Sure. And so it doesn't
mean that you're going to always agree on these
issues. Sure. Or always see eye to eye. Certainly
not theologically and maybe not always all the
time socially. To build these relationships,
institution to institution, frequently it involves
what's best for the community in which we both
inhabit. Sure. So I think that there is this
dialogue of, we might say, not just orthodoxy
in terms of like exchanging our theological beliefs,
but also sharing our practices and practices
in the community, in the wider society. in which
we live. And from there, the relationships emerge.
And from there, I think the conversations become
a lot more organic. Sure, sure. Yeah. So it's
about maybe starting in recognizing like, what
are some of the areas where we can collaborate?
Well, exactly. Right. And I think interesting
to then think about, like, maybe we agree on
the common action. But we maybe didn't come to
our reason for that action from the same place.
That's right. But like we can collaborate together
anyway on the action. And frequently what happens
is then whoever it may be that you're collaborating
with in this particular instance, they'll say,
well, so why are you here? You know, you haven't
you haven't gone away. So we know you're not
just extracting some like relationship that you're
hoping to make. But you're really concerned here
for our community, for our shared. Yeah. And
so what motivates you to be here? Sure. And I
think to be able to say, well, actually, I follow
Jesus and I believe that he taught a lot about
living well with one's neighbor. Right. And for
that witness to flow out of those relationships
that are already formed through cooperation.
Yeah. In in focusing on the common good and building
that up. It feels very natural. And I think it's
more not only does it feel more natural, it's
it's more likely to last longer term. Sure. Sometimes
it's just it is that way. Right. Like when when
we recognize we already have that shared relationship.
Yeah. That that then the theological exchanges
don't merely take on this head to head kind of
apologetics. It's not to say that there isn't
a time for that, but it often. means more when
there's the safety and buffer of relation of
relationship sure to anchor are more Sometimes
intense exchanges sure so there's a time for
those but sometimes we feel like we need to foreground
those and so we train ourselves apologetically
to share our faith which again is I'm not dismissing
that but fronting something else as something
that's equally important too sure and i think
that actually makes it then so much more accessible
for like non -theologians right it's like i don't
actually need to understand how my muslim neighbor
got to this point i don't need to understand
theologically here's the bible verses to back
up why i got to this point right like let's work
together as people and then maybe some sort of
faith conversation will come out of that but
like We're just people first caring for this
common concern. Yes, absolutely. For sure. So
then, because I think people get in a little
bit of anxiety when they think about like interfaith
spaces. And I think some Christians will think
of that. Well, the reason I go to an interfaith
space is to evangelize, is to get them to believe
in Jesus. Like what would be your sort of take
on that? Well, to build off what we were already
saying. And some of the things that have already
come up in our conversation include this mutuality,
right? And I think that's where interfaith dialogue
is not a substitute for evangelism or proclaiming
the gospel. But one, like we said before, oftentimes
that proclamation feels a lot more organic and
lands differently when there is a relationship.
Sure. But also, two, the sharing. Is indeed that
it's, it's a sharing. It's not a unidirectional.
Here's what I'm giving to you without any expectation
of possibly receiving something back. And it's
not to say that you always will, or that that
must be a condition, but chances are, if you
are open to that surprise, or as we said, Mary
was cultivated that wonder. Then my experience
has been, there have been times in which my non
-Christian neighbor. whoever that may be sharpens
my faith in some way. Right. And sometimes there's
even an insight that causes me to go back to
my knees in prayer or to the, to the word and
study. And there's something more expansive about
Jesus that I would not have known apart from
this dialogical relationship. So I think having
that baseline of openness. Sure. is, is really
key to, it's a very important posture to maintain
and practice when you're engaging with, um, interfaith
conversations and relationships. Sure. Yeah.
That like the humility is, is key for sure. And
I, yeah, I, I like, I think I really appreciate
that your like emphasis on the mutuality of it
that like, yeah, folks don't need to believe
all of the same things that I believe. They maybe
don't believe any of the same things I believe.
I don't know, but like I can still learn from
them. And they can still like, God can work through
people who don't believe like I do. Right. God
speaks through them to me. Yes. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
And like there there's. Again, I come back to
this word surprise because it's not as though
it is only you receiving either. There is a trust
that the Spirit is sovereignly at work in the
other person's life. And many times it ends up
being the case that there is an insight that
clicks about the gospel as well. And what is
that besides grassroots evangelism? Sure. Right?
Yeah. So there is a trust that... God is working
through that relational dialogical process. For
sure. For sure. Yeah. So then like we've talked
a bit about inter faith spaces. I wonder if you
can speak a bit to like how culture fits into
that. Like, I think there's some difference between
culture and faith and I think there's overlap
there, but like how, how would you distinguish
like inter faith spaces, intercultural spaces?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would like to say that. Any
interfaith space is going to be intercultural,
too. Sure. Even if intercultural does not always
include the faith component. Sure. So I think
culture is much more broadly and loosely defined.
And you can think of it in one way as any group
with which you feel a sense of connection, affinity.
Okay. Then that can be considered part of your
culture. Okay. But anyone else who doesn't share
in that same sense of affinity and belonging.
Sure. would be considered someone who's part
of another culture. Now, of course, that includes
the big ones like ethnicity, generation, socioeconomics,
religion. Yeah. But it could also include like
I'm a Jays fan and I'm a, you know, the Expos
back in the day, whatever. Sure. Yeah. But you
know what I mean? And those are real cultural
differences. When I was in Turkey. In many senses,
it was monocultural. Most people there are Turkish
and from a Turkish background. But football or
soccer is really, really important to Turkish
culture. And yet the different teams really take
on cultural dynamics that are different from
one another. And so there is a meaningful way
in which a supporter of this group and a supporter
of that club are... they're having an intercultural
relationship. There's like a different grammar
happening there to be sure. And so in that sense,
I think culture can work at a very wide and broad
level to help us understand how we navigate similarities
and differences across the board. And then religion
becomes a part of it. But the interesting thing
that happens is if religion is one intercultural
component, there may be other components that
are overlapping. And I think that's what allows
us to build, bridges, surprisingly, with people
who may be religiously different from us. Sure.
There can be a tendency to be like, if you're
Hindu or Buddhist or Muslim or an atheist, then,
oh, it's some this this huge barrier, this fundamental
gap. We cannot understand each other. Right.
And yet with the definition of culture that we
just worked with. there could be many other overlapping
points of cultural affinity. So I think that
dynamic really helps because then we're not as
put off by the religious other as we might be
otherwise. And that, again, postures us in a
position to be surprised, to be open to the possibility
that the spirit might be... prompting something
in my heart through this person. Right. Yeah.
So like when we're, we're maybe not the same
religion, but like maybe we're both parents.
Maybe we are both, you know, from a same generation.
Maybe we are both Jays fans and we can really
get on board with that. Right. Like there are
those connection points, even as there are different
points. Exactly. Yeah, for sure. So then when
you think about like. Churches and followers
of Jesus today, what are some of the biggest
opportunities and challenges that you've seen
people face as they try to navigate these spaces?
Yeah, that's a good question. I think the opportunity
is, again, reflected in the statistics. Sure.
That's not changing. If anything, it's increasing.
It being the influx. to Canada of newcomers from
places where the majority of religion is not
Christianity. And many of these newcomers are
bringing those traditions with them. And so it's
incumbent upon the church if they want to be
faithful to God's mission to engage neighborly.
No one doesn't have to go overseas anymore. I
think that old assumption, it's still... holds
pretty firmly in many church spaces where in
order to witness across religious barriers, you
have to travel somewhere far. Right. Not in Mississauga,
right? Like I just drove past the Hindu Heritage
Center, a masjid, also a Muslim place of worship
on the way here. Yeah. Right. So it's literally
down the street. Yeah. So I think the opportunity
presents itself if you're in Canada, especially
if you're in the GTA, if you're in Mississauga.
Yeah. And so the opportunities are there. I think
the challenge is, is to to make that shift. Sure.
Right. Then to and just to circle back to what
we already talked about, to to feel like this
is only for the experts. Right. That dialogue
is for those who are theologically trained. Right.
Well, the shepherds are not, you know, they didn't
have access to all that, but they had theological
knowledge and everybody has a relationship through
the spirit with with Christ. And so I think we're
all equipped more than we know spiritually to.
to engage. But I think there is that barrier
because it feels like such a, a chasm. For sure.
For sure. But again, recognizing that we do share
a lot in common. Yep. Can, can be a helpful,
not even a first step. It just kind of starts
you off already a few steps. Sure. Down the line.
It gets your head in the right place. For sure.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then are there any like
resources or next steps that you might like offer
to folks who like want to do this well? Well,
yeah, I will focus again just on the Christian
Muslim dialogue. Sure. Since that's part of my
work. Yep. And I think the resources that come
to mind are the ones that help us see how much
we do have in common. Sure. Because it's so easy
to see. to focus on what isn't similar. Sure.
So, um, I think of some of, uh, these CBC documentaries
that are freely accessible online and I'll, I'll
send them to you. Maybe you can post them in
the show notes or something like that. Um, but
I think of one called 14 and Muslim. Okay. And
I think of one last year, I think, or two years
ago was released called. So you want to be a
Muslim. Now these are films that are made by
Muslim filmmakers or in collaboration with, um,
Canadian Muslim stakeholders. And so it, it tells
their story and it gives folks who are interested
in the church to listen firsthand. Right. Right.
To listen deeply. And with curiosity, you do
not have to agree with everything, but you might
find yourself surprisingly resonating. Like I
get that. Right. I get how a 14 year old will
wrestle with. Being popular in school versus
being faithful to one's religious commitments
when those things feel like they're in intention.
Right. So I think those those documentaries give
us an artistic, accurate. connection with folks
outside our tradition. If you've never watched
Little Mosque on the Prairie, this is a bit of
an older sitcom, but it's incredible. You know,
only in Canada, this literally could not happen
in the United States, but where you have the
sitcom, which was a hit, critical hit and popular
hit. And that allows you as a Christian to step
into in a humorous way. um, some fundamentals
of like, um, Islamic belief, but told from this
Canadian prairies setting. It's like small towns.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I love those as
resources that can, that humanize the other.
Sure. Um, that put a face on them that allows
us to see. Eye to eye and connect. And then from
there, the disagreements will arise. Sure. But
it emerges first from that face to face encounter.
For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think just what sort
of is resonating with me from all of this is
just like the opportunity to get to know people
as people first. And like as here are the things
that we can have in common and learning about
difference. But doing that with that sense of
curiosity and humility, I think is. Yeah. The
way to go for sure. Yeah. Was there anything
else you wanted to leave us with as you reflect
on our conversation? No, I don't think so. I
think that's that's about it. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
thank you so much, Alex. This has been a really
helpful conversation, I think, to get some of
your experience, both practical experience and
sort of academic knowledge to bring that together
in a really encouraging way. I think like this
has been helpful for us to think about, you know,
that this is the work of the whole church. that
each one of us has a part to play in just loving
across difference, getting to know people across
difference. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you
so much, Kyla. Yeah. And thank you for tuning
in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I
pray that you are able to find spaces to love
and to engage with wonder and curiosity across
whatever sort of cultural differences you find
yourself in, and maybe even be surprised by how
God shows up there. And we'll see you again next
week.