WEBVTT 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:04.799 Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:07.339 of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm really 00:00:07.339 --> 00:00:09.560 glad that you are joining us. I am excited about 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:13.140 this conversation. I'm welcoming Alex Lee, who 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:17.000 is a PhD candidate at Fuller and works at the 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:19.640 Tyndale Intercultural Ministry Center. And I 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:21.940 think what I'm most excited about in this conversation 00:00:21.940 --> 00:00:25.399 is to get your perspective on interfaith conversations 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:29.100 and on what it looks like for us to live the 00:00:29.100 --> 00:00:32.539 gospel in really diverse contexts and worlds. 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:34.619 Yeah. So thank you so much for joining me. Well, 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:36.600 thanks so much for having me, Kyla. It's a pleasure 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:38.859 to be here. Yeah. Do you want to just introduce 00:00:38.859 --> 00:00:40.939 yourself a little bit, say a bit about your background 00:00:40.939 --> 00:00:43.659 and what's brought you here? Yeah. I mean, so 00:00:43.659 --> 00:00:45.399 you mentioned that a lot of my work is through 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:47.719 the Tyndale Intercultural Ministry Center. But 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:50.880 before this, I was a pastor for about 15 years. 00:00:51.299 --> 00:00:54.179 And most of those years were spent overseas in 00:00:54.179 --> 00:00:56.539 various contexts in East Asia, Central Asia. 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:01.909 And so working with local believers and neighbors 00:01:01.909 --> 00:01:04.909 who may not have ever stepped foot in a church 00:01:04.909 --> 00:01:07.890 or feel any good reason to. That's part of my 00:01:07.890 --> 00:01:11.609 ministry and pastoral context. So I'm based out 00:01:11.609 --> 00:01:14.950 in Markham now. My wife, Vanessa, and our two 00:01:14.950 --> 00:01:18.769 kids. Okay, great. So what sort of brought you 00:01:18.769 --> 00:01:22.189 from that pastoral world into this work in the 00:01:22.189 --> 00:01:25.069 Tim Center in, you know, studying for your PhD? 00:01:25.349 --> 00:01:28.250 Right. Yeah. Well, when I came back from ministering 00:01:28.250 --> 00:01:33.030 overseas, It was an awesome time. It was a blessing 00:01:33.030 --> 00:01:36.010 in many, many ways. But I also realized that 00:01:36.010 --> 00:01:39.090 there were questions that had come up that I 00:01:39.090 --> 00:01:42.750 had to wrestle through that coming back and pursuing 00:01:42.750 --> 00:01:46.310 the PhD gave me an opportunity to dive head into. 00:01:46.530 --> 00:01:50.629 Sure. And to do that at an academic level. But 00:01:50.629 --> 00:01:52.469 I think the interesting thing about pursuing 00:01:52.469 --> 00:01:56.290 your PhD at a seminary is that it does offer 00:01:56.290 --> 00:01:58.450 you plenty of opportunities for spiritual growth. 00:01:58.459 --> 00:02:00.680 formation along the way. So even thinking about 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:05.200 mission, um, my PhD is in missiology, um, to, 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:07.980 to engage that both academically and it's theology, 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:11.639 it's history, but also how that shapes us as 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:13.419 the people of God or how that shapes me as a 00:02:13.419 --> 00:02:16.139 minister becomes, um, front and center. So that, 00:02:16.139 --> 00:02:18.599 that happened first. And then when I got connected 00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:23.159 with folks at the Tim center, um, that there 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:25.979 was just a, I think a convergence of, of interests 00:02:25.979 --> 00:02:28.759 and passions there. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:31.659 that's that's really interesting. So then like 00:02:31.659 --> 00:02:34.500 when you think about this work of pastoring overseas, 00:02:34.860 --> 00:02:37.099 like what what are some of the pieces that like 00:02:37.099 --> 00:02:39.620 stand out to you from that? Like what just describe 00:02:39.620 --> 00:02:43.180 like what that experience was like? Sure. I think 00:02:43.180 --> 00:02:45.819 when I first began my pastoral journey, especially 00:02:45.819 --> 00:02:48.879 in the overseas context, it was still as a young 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:51.500 man. I was not married at the time, pretty much 00:02:51.500 --> 00:02:56.770 fresh out of college, in fact. And so I. had 00:02:56.770 --> 00:03:00.090 a lot of ideas and ideals about what that should 00:03:00.090 --> 00:03:03.110 look like sure and a certain understanding that 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:06.699 This is the gospel. These are folks who don't 00:03:06.699 --> 00:03:09.199 have the gospel, who need the gospel. And here's 00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:11.539 me and maybe my team. And we're going to come 00:03:11.539 --> 00:03:15.500 and bring it and offer it to them. And I think 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:19.060 over the course of years, even in the first year 00:03:19.060 --> 00:03:21.580 or two, really in the first few months, you begin 00:03:21.580 --> 00:03:25.080 to realize it's not that simple. It's not that 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:28.939 easy. It's messier than that. It's more complex. 00:03:29.020 --> 00:03:33.409 But also, if you can hang on. through that messiness 00:03:33.409 --> 00:03:36.770 and through that discomfort and through this 00:03:36.770 --> 00:03:40.289 shift from certainty to mystery, then it becomes 00:03:40.289 --> 00:03:43.689 more beautiful. Sure. Yeah. And even as I was 00:03:43.689 --> 00:03:48.090 communicating in today's sermon, this openness 00:03:48.090 --> 00:03:52.110 to being surprised by a God whose spirit continues 00:03:52.110 --> 00:03:56.400 to work. In the world and sometimes even beyond 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:59.120 the four walls of the church. Sure. And to to 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:03.259 receive from others this mutual sharing and giving 00:04:03.259 --> 00:04:06.300 of, yes, the gospel, but to hear it preached 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:10.199 back to you with some with from a different angle. 00:04:10.300 --> 00:04:13.340 Sure. That's all been very life giving. Yeah. 00:04:13.460 --> 00:04:15.479 Yeah, for sure. I think that's that's really 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:19.579 interesting just to like reflect on. Yeah. Maybe 00:04:19.579 --> 00:04:22.259 the ways that we go into mission and ministry 00:04:22.259 --> 00:04:25.000 versus like, you know, what, what are the opportunities 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:27.139 that like God is already there. Right. And so 00:04:27.139 --> 00:04:29.160 like what, stopping to ask what is God already 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:31.620 doing in this context. Right. I think is, is 00:04:31.620 --> 00:04:34.879 super important. Absolutely. Yeah. And so then 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:37.360 in a lot of your work, as I understand was in 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:40.160 like Muslim majority contexts. Right. So like 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.759 how did interfaith dialogue like show up and 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:44.620 like, what was the role of that in your ministry? 00:04:45.149 --> 00:04:48.230 Well, a lot of it is this dynamic of hospitality 00:04:48.230 --> 00:04:50.889 in which you are sometimes a host, in which oftentimes 00:04:50.889 --> 00:04:53.610 you're a guest. And fundamentally, you know, 00:04:53.629 --> 00:04:55.610 you're for someone like me who's coming from 00:04:55.610 --> 00:04:59.170 North America into any country that's not in 00:04:59.170 --> 00:05:03.149 North America. I am at the baseline guest. Sure. 00:05:03.209 --> 00:05:07.129 And so but more concretely, I think this give 00:05:07.129 --> 00:05:10.750 and take between having folks come into our spaces, 00:05:10.790 --> 00:05:14.750 but then also being. vulnerable enough to step 00:05:14.750 --> 00:05:17.829 outside of one's comfort zone. Sure. Because, 00:05:17.870 --> 00:05:19.750 you know, one of the things that's interesting 00:05:19.750 --> 00:05:22.730 about hospitality is that it can still take on 00:05:22.730 --> 00:05:27.490 these power dynamics. For sure. Where if you're 00:05:27.490 --> 00:05:32.069 often, if not always, the one hosting, you're 00:05:32.069 --> 00:05:34.370 still setting the table, right? The agenda is 00:05:34.370 --> 00:05:38.790 still dependent on the host. Sure. And so to, 00:05:38.949 --> 00:05:41.970 I think, practice hospitality well, what we learned 00:05:41.970 --> 00:05:45.269 was that We can't just always be the ones in 00:05:45.269 --> 00:05:48.329 control. And in many ways, this is very basic, 00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:51.269 fundamental stuff. But again, as somebody who 00:05:51.269 --> 00:05:53.930 had to learn along the way, as someone who started 00:05:53.930 --> 00:05:56.649 off as a young man, this was actually quite... 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.220 uh, formative earth shattering for me at the 00:06:00.220 --> 00:06:03.339 beginning to learn how to receive from others 00:06:03.339 --> 00:06:06.199 as well. And to be a guest and to not set the 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.579 table, um, but to what, to eat what is served 00:06:09.579 --> 00:06:11.980 and to take what is given. Sure. So like, what 00:06:11.980 --> 00:06:14.060 does that look like in like really practical 00:06:14.060 --> 00:06:17.939 terms? Sure. Yeah. I think in like in, um, let's 00:06:17.939 --> 00:06:22.910 put it back into our. Sure. I think you had this 00:06:22.910 --> 00:06:25.470 awesome graphic at the beginning of like how 00:06:25.470 --> 00:06:28.129 diverse Mississauga is. I learned a lot. I did 00:06:28.129 --> 00:06:30.290 a little bit of research, too, given my interest 00:06:30.290 --> 00:06:33.769 in Christian Muslim dialogue. And I noticed how 00:06:33.769 --> 00:06:36.930 in Mississauga, almost one in five residents 00:06:36.930 --> 00:06:40.269 here are from a Muslim background, about 17 percent. 00:06:40.430 --> 00:06:44.389 OK. And that offers a church like Trinity, I 00:06:44.389 --> 00:06:49.000 think, ample opportunities to. to be a neighbor. 00:06:49.100 --> 00:06:51.959 And perhaps you are already engaged in that in 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:54.699 some way, if not as an institution, then individually, 00:06:54.740 --> 00:06:58.379 because if you're a parent, chances are your 00:06:58.379 --> 00:07:03.519 kids' friends are Muslim and the other coaches 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:04.839 on the house league baseball team, because that's 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:07.300 what I do, they might be from a Muslim background 00:07:07.300 --> 00:07:09.560 or a Hindu background or whatever other non -Christian 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:12.420 background it may be. And so I think what I would 00:07:12.420 --> 00:07:16.189 want to emphasize is that practically a lot of 00:07:16.189 --> 00:07:18.610 this, it doesn't have to remain. It shouldn't 00:07:18.610 --> 00:07:20.829 remain in the realm of academia or for the experts 00:07:20.829 --> 00:07:24.850 to engage in. Every person is invited to practice 00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:27.889 interfaith dialogue. We might even just call 00:07:27.889 --> 00:07:30.790 it interfaith relationships. And that I think 00:07:30.790 --> 00:07:34.769 involves the humility to just be who you are, 00:07:34.870 --> 00:07:40.540 to be vulnerable, to. make friends with folks 00:07:40.540 --> 00:07:43.939 that might not always be in the church context. 00:07:44.019 --> 00:07:48.459 So I would, I would really emphasize that capacity 00:07:48.459 --> 00:07:51.379 and skill of just getting to know folks who are 00:07:51.379 --> 00:07:55.220 not like yourself. Sure. Especially in a place 00:07:55.220 --> 00:07:57.139 like Mississauga, Markham's not too different 00:07:57.139 --> 00:08:01.560 either, where literally our neighbors, our coworkers 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:07.040 and so forth are. people from a different background 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:10.319 religiously. Um, and I think increasingly in 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:13.480 Canada statistics, Canada also shows that this, 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:17.079 um, involves particularly our Muslim sisters 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:20.420 and brothers, our neighbors. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.660 So then like if interfaith dialogue and relationships 00:08:23.660 --> 00:08:27.079 are about, you know, the people who coach baseball 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:28.860 with you or your coworkers or whatever, like 00:08:28.860 --> 00:08:32.440 does. interfaith dialogue like i think that phrase 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:34.559 makes me think well we need to be talking about 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:37.759 faith but like is that true or can we have interfaith 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:40.419 dialogue where we're like just doing life i don't 00:08:40.419 --> 00:08:43.080 know yeah that's a yeah that's a great distinction 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:45.379 and i appreciate you bringing that up yeah um 00:08:45.379 --> 00:08:48.600 yes because dialogue right it's it's an exchange 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:54.639 of words right but dialogue it is At various 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:57.139 levels, to be sure. And I think shared life, 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:00.399 shared practice. For instance, I think churches 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:04.440 and mosques, as an example, can frequently find 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:08.480 points of common ground when it comes to issues 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:11.679 that concern the community. Sure. And so it doesn't 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:14.679 mean that you're going to always agree on these 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:16.820 issues. Sure. Or always see eye to eye. Certainly 00:09:16.820 --> 00:09:19.279 not theologically and maybe not always all the 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:23.299 time socially. To build these relationships, 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.879 institution to institution, frequently it involves 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:29.700 what's best for the community in which we both 00:09:29.700 --> 00:09:32.000 inhabit. Sure. So I think that there is this 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:35.559 dialogue of, we might say, not just orthodoxy 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:38.120 in terms of like exchanging our theological beliefs, 00:09:38.220 --> 00:09:41.179 but also sharing our practices and practices 00:09:41.179 --> 00:09:44.080 in the community, in the wider society. in which 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:48.019 we live. And from there, the relationships emerge. 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.039 And from there, I think the conversations become 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:53.519 a lot more organic. Sure, sure. Yeah. So it's 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:56.419 about maybe starting in recognizing like, what 00:09:56.419 --> 00:09:58.940 are some of the areas where we can collaborate? 00:09:59.019 --> 00:10:01.840 Well, exactly. Right. And I think interesting 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.279 to then think about, like, maybe we agree on 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:08.580 the common action. But we maybe didn't come to 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:10.559 our reason for that action from the same place. 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:12.419 That's right. But like we can collaborate together 00:10:12.419 --> 00:10:15.600 anyway on the action. And frequently what happens 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:19.399 is then whoever it may be that you're collaborating 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:21.740 with in this particular instance, they'll say, 00:10:21.779 --> 00:10:23.500 well, so why are you here? You know, you haven't 00:10:23.500 --> 00:10:25.500 you haven't gone away. So we know you're not 00:10:25.500 --> 00:10:28.799 just extracting some like relationship that you're 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.259 hoping to make. But you're really concerned here 00:10:31.259 --> 00:10:35.490 for our community, for our shared. Yeah. And 00:10:35.490 --> 00:10:37.990 so what motivates you to be here? Sure. And I 00:10:37.990 --> 00:10:41.330 think to be able to say, well, actually, I follow 00:10:41.330 --> 00:10:44.889 Jesus and I believe that he taught a lot about 00:10:44.889 --> 00:10:48.330 living well with one's neighbor. Right. And for 00:10:48.330 --> 00:10:51.370 that witness to flow out of those relationships 00:10:51.370 --> 00:10:53.169 that are already formed through cooperation. 00:10:53.389 --> 00:10:57.429 Yeah. In in focusing on the common good and building 00:10:57.429 --> 00:11:00.159 that up. It feels very natural. And I think it's 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:02.519 more not only does it feel more natural, it's 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:07.100 it's more likely to last longer term. Sure. Sometimes 00:11:07.100 --> 00:11:09.299 it's just it is that way. Right. Like when when 00:11:09.299 --> 00:11:12.000 we recognize we already have that shared relationship. 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.720 Yeah. That that then the theological exchanges 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:20.480 don't merely take on this head to head kind of 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:22.500 apologetics. It's not to say that there isn't 00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:26.000 a time for that, but it often. means more when 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.679 there's the safety and buffer of relation of 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:32.720 relationship sure to anchor are more Sometimes 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.740 intense exchanges sure so there's a time for 00:11:35.740 --> 00:11:38.279 those but sometimes we feel like we need to foreground 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:40.860 those and so we train ourselves apologetically 00:11:40.860 --> 00:11:43.120 to share our faith which again is I'm not dismissing 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:47.419 that but fronting something else as something 00:11:47.419 --> 00:11:50.100 that's equally important too sure and i think 00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:52.840 that actually makes it then so much more accessible 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:57.080 for like non -theologians right it's like i don't 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:00.100 actually need to understand how my muslim neighbor 00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:01.940 got to this point i don't need to understand 00:12:01.940 --> 00:12:04.299 theologically here's the bible verses to back 00:12:04.299 --> 00:12:06.759 up why i got to this point right like let's work 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:10.399 together as people and then maybe some sort of 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:12.100 faith conversation will come out of that but 00:12:12.100 --> 00:12:15.100 like We're just people first caring for this 00:12:15.100 --> 00:12:18.440 common concern. Yes, absolutely. For sure. So 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:21.759 then, because I think people get in a little 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:23.980 bit of anxiety when they think about like interfaith 00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:26.600 spaces. And I think some Christians will think 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:28.299 of that. Well, the reason I go to an interfaith 00:12:28.299 --> 00:12:31.179 space is to evangelize, is to get them to believe 00:12:31.179 --> 00:12:34.000 in Jesus. Like what would be your sort of take 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:36.860 on that? Well, to build off what we were already 00:12:36.860 --> 00:12:39.690 saying. And some of the things that have already 00:12:39.690 --> 00:12:43.610 come up in our conversation include this mutuality, 00:12:43.629 --> 00:12:48.049 right? And I think that's where interfaith dialogue 00:12:48.049 --> 00:12:52.090 is not a substitute for evangelism or proclaiming 00:12:52.090 --> 00:12:56.190 the gospel. But one, like we said before, oftentimes 00:12:56.190 --> 00:13:00.529 that proclamation feels a lot more organic and 00:13:00.529 --> 00:13:02.289 lands differently when there is a relationship. 00:13:02.509 --> 00:13:08.269 Sure. But also, two, the sharing. Is indeed that 00:13:08.269 --> 00:13:11.529 it's, it's a sharing. It's not a unidirectional. 00:13:12.210 --> 00:13:15.289 Here's what I'm giving to you without any expectation 00:13:15.289 --> 00:13:18.730 of possibly receiving something back. And it's 00:13:18.730 --> 00:13:20.690 not to say that you always will, or that that 00:13:20.690 --> 00:13:23.909 must be a condition, but chances are, if you 00:13:23.909 --> 00:13:27.230 are open to that surprise, or as we said, Mary 00:13:27.230 --> 00:13:31.429 was cultivated that wonder. Then my experience 00:13:31.429 --> 00:13:35.009 has been, there have been times in which my non 00:13:35.009 --> 00:13:39.690 -Christian neighbor. whoever that may be sharpens 00:13:39.690 --> 00:13:43.070 my faith in some way. Right. And sometimes there's 00:13:43.070 --> 00:13:46.549 even an insight that causes me to go back to 00:13:46.549 --> 00:13:49.289 my knees in prayer or to the, to the word and 00:13:49.289 --> 00:13:53.830 study. And there's something more expansive about 00:13:53.830 --> 00:13:56.330 Jesus that I would not have known apart from 00:13:56.330 --> 00:14:00.190 this dialogical relationship. So I think having 00:14:00.190 --> 00:14:04.620 that baseline of openness. Sure. is, is really 00:14:04.620 --> 00:14:07.779 key to, it's a very important posture to maintain 00:14:07.779 --> 00:14:11.639 and practice when you're engaging with, um, interfaith 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:14.480 conversations and relationships. Sure. Yeah. 00:14:14.539 --> 00:14:17.299 That like the humility is, is key for sure. And 00:14:17.299 --> 00:14:19.460 I, yeah, I, I like, I think I really appreciate 00:14:19.460 --> 00:14:22.759 that your like emphasis on the mutuality of it 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:26.220 that like, yeah, folks don't need to believe 00:14:26.220 --> 00:14:28.440 all of the same things that I believe. They maybe 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:30.360 don't believe any of the same things I believe. 00:14:30.419 --> 00:14:32.779 I don't know, but like I can still learn from 00:14:32.779 --> 00:14:35.779 them. And they can still like, God can work through 00:14:35.779 --> 00:14:39.240 people who don't believe like I do. Right. God 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.620 speaks through them to me. Yes. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:46.509 And like there there's. Again, I come back to 00:14:46.509 --> 00:14:50.549 this word surprise because it's not as though 00:14:50.549 --> 00:14:54.850 it is only you receiving either. There is a trust 00:14:54.850 --> 00:14:57.190 that the Spirit is sovereignly at work in the 00:14:57.190 --> 00:15:00.629 other person's life. And many times it ends up 00:15:00.629 --> 00:15:02.490 being the case that there is an insight that 00:15:02.490 --> 00:15:06.750 clicks about the gospel as well. And what is 00:15:06.750 --> 00:15:10.870 that besides grassroots evangelism? Sure. Right? 00:15:10.950 --> 00:15:15.850 Yeah. So there is a trust that... God is working 00:15:15.850 --> 00:15:20.590 through that relational dialogical process. For 00:15:20.590 --> 00:15:24.269 sure. For sure. Yeah. So then like we've talked 00:15:24.269 --> 00:15:27.830 a bit about inter faith spaces. I wonder if you 00:15:27.830 --> 00:15:30.190 can speak a bit to like how culture fits into 00:15:30.190 --> 00:15:32.129 that. Like, I think there's some difference between 00:15:32.129 --> 00:15:33.970 culture and faith and I think there's overlap 00:15:33.970 --> 00:15:36.389 there, but like how, how would you distinguish 00:15:36.389 --> 00:15:38.509 like inter faith spaces, intercultural spaces? 00:15:38.669 --> 00:15:42.210 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would like to say that. Any 00:15:42.210 --> 00:15:45.029 interfaith space is going to be intercultural, 00:15:45.110 --> 00:15:47.809 too. Sure. Even if intercultural does not always 00:15:47.809 --> 00:15:50.250 include the faith component. Sure. So I think 00:15:50.250 --> 00:15:54.549 culture is much more broadly and loosely defined. 00:15:54.809 --> 00:15:58.509 And you can think of it in one way as any group 00:15:58.509 --> 00:16:01.789 with which you feel a sense of connection, affinity. 00:16:02.029 --> 00:16:04.309 Okay. Then that can be considered part of your 00:16:04.309 --> 00:16:07.610 culture. Okay. But anyone else who doesn't share 00:16:07.610 --> 00:16:10.409 in that same sense of affinity and belonging. 00:16:10.710 --> 00:16:12.799 Sure. would be considered someone who's part 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:15.620 of another culture. Now, of course, that includes 00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:19.879 the big ones like ethnicity, generation, socioeconomics, 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.299 religion. Yeah. But it could also include like 00:16:23.299 --> 00:16:28.399 I'm a Jays fan and I'm a, you know, the Expos 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:30.159 back in the day, whatever. Sure. Yeah. But you 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:31.879 know what I mean? And those are real cultural 00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:34.950 differences. When I was in Turkey. In many senses, 00:16:34.970 --> 00:16:37.990 it was monocultural. Most people there are Turkish 00:16:37.990 --> 00:16:40.590 and from a Turkish background. But football or 00:16:40.590 --> 00:16:44.190 soccer is really, really important to Turkish 00:16:44.190 --> 00:16:48.169 culture. And yet the different teams really take 00:16:48.169 --> 00:16:51.889 on cultural dynamics that are different from 00:16:51.889 --> 00:16:54.549 one another. And so there is a meaningful way 00:16:54.549 --> 00:16:56.889 in which a supporter of this group and a supporter 00:16:56.889 --> 00:16:59.870 of that club are... they're having an intercultural 00:16:59.870 --> 00:17:02.409 relationship. There's like a different grammar 00:17:02.409 --> 00:17:06.529 happening there to be sure. And so in that sense, 00:17:06.670 --> 00:17:09.390 I think culture can work at a very wide and broad 00:17:09.390 --> 00:17:12.430 level to help us understand how we navigate similarities 00:17:12.430 --> 00:17:16.910 and differences across the board. And then religion 00:17:16.910 --> 00:17:18.690 becomes a part of it. But the interesting thing 00:17:18.690 --> 00:17:22.269 that happens is if religion is one intercultural 00:17:22.269 --> 00:17:24.609 component, there may be other components that 00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:27.269 are overlapping. And I think that's what allows 00:17:27.269 --> 00:17:30.750 us to build, bridges, surprisingly, with people 00:17:30.750 --> 00:17:33.430 who may be religiously different from us. Sure. 00:17:33.509 --> 00:17:35.730 There can be a tendency to be like, if you're 00:17:35.730 --> 00:17:40.710 Hindu or Buddhist or Muslim or an atheist, then, 00:17:40.789 --> 00:17:44.650 oh, it's some this this huge barrier, this fundamental 00:17:44.650 --> 00:17:46.890 gap. We cannot understand each other. Right. 00:17:46.970 --> 00:17:49.089 And yet with the definition of culture that we 00:17:49.089 --> 00:17:52.880 just worked with. there could be many other overlapping 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.200 points of cultural affinity. So I think that 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.299 dynamic really helps because then we're not as 00:17:59.299 --> 00:18:03.339 put off by the religious other as we might be 00:18:03.339 --> 00:18:05.960 otherwise. And that, again, postures us in a 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:10.440 position to be surprised, to be open to the possibility 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:13.329 that the spirit might be... prompting something 00:18:13.329 --> 00:18:16.369 in my heart through this person. Right. Yeah. 00:18:16.470 --> 00:18:18.329 So like when we're, we're maybe not the same 00:18:18.329 --> 00:18:20.269 religion, but like maybe we're both parents. 00:18:20.289 --> 00:18:22.730 Maybe we are both, you know, from a same generation. 00:18:22.730 --> 00:18:25.029 Maybe we are both Jays fans and we can really 00:18:25.029 --> 00:18:27.210 get on board with that. Right. Like there are 00:18:27.210 --> 00:18:30.269 those connection points, even as there are different 00:18:30.269 --> 00:18:33.470 points. Exactly. Yeah, for sure. So then when 00:18:33.470 --> 00:18:35.700 you think about like. Churches and followers 00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:37.720 of Jesus today, what are some of the biggest 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:40.099 opportunities and challenges that you've seen 00:18:40.099 --> 00:18:43.079 people face as they try to navigate these spaces? 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.400 Yeah, that's a good question. I think the opportunity 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:49.059 is, again, reflected in the statistics. Sure. 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.859 That's not changing. If anything, it's increasing. 00:18:52.259 --> 00:18:57.259 It being the influx. to Canada of newcomers from 00:18:57.259 --> 00:19:00.680 places where the majority of religion is not 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.940 Christianity. And many of these newcomers are 00:19:03.940 --> 00:19:10.000 bringing those traditions with them. And so it's 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:11.880 incumbent upon the church if they want to be 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.359 faithful to God's mission to engage neighborly. 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:18.140 No one doesn't have to go overseas anymore. I 00:19:18.140 --> 00:19:21.690 think that old assumption, it's still... holds 00:19:21.690 --> 00:19:24.269 pretty firmly in many church spaces where in 00:19:24.269 --> 00:19:28.670 order to witness across religious barriers, you 00:19:28.670 --> 00:19:31.250 have to travel somewhere far. Right. Not in Mississauga, 00:19:31.349 --> 00:19:33.549 right? Like I just drove past the Hindu Heritage 00:19:33.549 --> 00:19:36.750 Center, a masjid, also a Muslim place of worship 00:19:36.750 --> 00:19:38.750 on the way here. Yeah. Right. So it's literally 00:19:38.750 --> 00:19:40.789 down the street. Yeah. So I think the opportunity 00:19:40.789 --> 00:19:43.789 presents itself if you're in Canada, especially 00:19:43.789 --> 00:19:46.829 if you're in the GTA, if you're in Mississauga. 00:19:46.930 --> 00:19:50.410 Yeah. And so the opportunities are there. I think 00:19:50.410 --> 00:19:53.369 the challenge is, is to to make that shift. Sure. 00:19:53.529 --> 00:19:57.069 Right. Then to and just to circle back to what 00:19:57.069 --> 00:19:59.490 we already talked about, to to feel like this 00:19:59.490 --> 00:20:01.829 is only for the experts. Right. That dialogue 00:20:01.829 --> 00:20:04.289 is for those who are theologically trained. Right. 00:20:04.410 --> 00:20:06.450 Well, the shepherds are not, you know, they didn't 00:20:06.450 --> 00:20:08.049 have access to all that, but they had theological 00:20:08.049 --> 00:20:12.650 knowledge and everybody has a relationship through 00:20:12.650 --> 00:20:15.190 the spirit with with Christ. And so I think we're 00:20:15.190 --> 00:20:17.990 all equipped more than we know spiritually to. 00:20:19.309 --> 00:20:21.009 to engage. But I think there is that barrier 00:20:21.009 --> 00:20:24.190 because it feels like such a, a chasm. For sure. 00:20:24.349 --> 00:20:26.950 For sure. But again, recognizing that we do share 00:20:26.950 --> 00:20:29.730 a lot in common. Yep. Can, can be a helpful, 00:20:29.809 --> 00:20:32.250 not even a first step. It just kind of starts 00:20:32.250 --> 00:20:35.089 you off already a few steps. Sure. Down the line. 00:20:35.089 --> 00:20:37.089 It gets your head in the right place. For sure. 00:20:37.170 --> 00:20:40.140 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then are there any like 00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:42.440 resources or next steps that you might like offer 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:46.019 to folks who like want to do this well? Well, 00:20:46.099 --> 00:20:47.900 yeah, I will focus again just on the Christian 00:20:47.900 --> 00:20:51.660 Muslim dialogue. Sure. Since that's part of my 00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:55.259 work. Yep. And I think the resources that come 00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:57.920 to mind are the ones that help us see how much 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.940 we do have in common. Sure. Because it's so easy 00:21:00.940 --> 00:21:03.829 to see. to focus on what isn't similar. Sure. 00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:07.470 So, um, I think of some of, uh, these CBC documentaries 00:21:07.470 --> 00:21:11.069 that are freely accessible online and I'll, I'll 00:21:11.069 --> 00:21:12.569 send them to you. Maybe you can post them in 00:21:12.569 --> 00:21:14.630 the show notes or something like that. Um, but 00:21:14.630 --> 00:21:17.769 I think of one called 14 and Muslim. Okay. And 00:21:17.769 --> 00:21:20.829 I think of one last year, I think, or two years 00:21:20.829 --> 00:21:23.009 ago was released called. So you want to be a 00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:26.710 Muslim. Now these are films that are made by 00:21:26.710 --> 00:21:30.250 Muslim filmmakers or in collaboration with, um, 00:21:30.619 --> 00:21:35.119 Canadian Muslim stakeholders. And so it, it tells 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:38.900 their story and it gives folks who are interested 00:21:38.900 --> 00:21:42.880 in the church to listen firsthand. Right. Right. 00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:45.180 To listen deeply. And with curiosity, you do 00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.019 not have to agree with everything, but you might 00:21:47.019 --> 00:21:49.619 find yourself surprisingly resonating. Like I 00:21:49.619 --> 00:21:53.119 get that. Right. I get how a 14 year old will 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:57.400 wrestle with. Being popular in school versus 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:00.740 being faithful to one's religious commitments 00:22:00.740 --> 00:22:04.059 when those things feel like they're in intention. 00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:08.440 Right. So I think those those documentaries give 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:14.390 us an artistic, accurate. connection with folks 00:22:14.390 --> 00:22:17.890 outside our tradition. If you've never watched 00:22:17.890 --> 00:22:21.390 Little Mosque on the Prairie, this is a bit of 00:22:21.390 --> 00:22:24.450 an older sitcom, but it's incredible. You know, 00:22:24.450 --> 00:22:26.710 only in Canada, this literally could not happen 00:22:26.710 --> 00:22:29.009 in the United States, but where you have the 00:22:29.009 --> 00:22:31.450 sitcom, which was a hit, critical hit and popular 00:22:31.450 --> 00:22:35.750 hit. And that allows you as a Christian to step 00:22:35.750 --> 00:22:39.609 into in a humorous way. um, some fundamentals 00:22:39.609 --> 00:22:43.470 of like, um, Islamic belief, but told from this 00:22:43.470 --> 00:22:47.710 Canadian prairies setting. It's like small towns. 00:22:47.789 --> 00:22:50.670 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I love those as 00:22:50.670 --> 00:22:53.450 resources that can, that humanize the other. 00:22:53.509 --> 00:22:57.630 Sure. Um, that put a face on them that allows 00:22:57.630 --> 00:23:02.029 us to see. Eye to eye and connect. And then from 00:23:02.029 --> 00:23:06.049 there, the disagreements will arise. Sure. But 00:23:06.049 --> 00:23:08.789 it emerges first from that face to face encounter. 00:23:09.170 --> 00:23:12.750 For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think just what sort 00:23:12.750 --> 00:23:14.829 of is resonating with me from all of this is 00:23:14.829 --> 00:23:16.690 just like the opportunity to get to know people 00:23:16.690 --> 00:23:20.329 as people first. And like as here are the things 00:23:20.329 --> 00:23:22.589 that we can have in common and learning about 00:23:22.589 --> 00:23:24.789 difference. But doing that with that sense of 00:23:24.789 --> 00:23:28.299 curiosity and humility, I think is. Yeah. The 00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:31.079 way to go for sure. Yeah. Was there anything 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.359 else you wanted to leave us with as you reflect 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:36.799 on our conversation? No, I don't think so. I 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:38.619 think that's that's about it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, 00:23:38.700 --> 00:23:40.920 thank you so much, Alex. This has been a really 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.519 helpful conversation, I think, to get some of 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:47.180 your experience, both practical experience and 00:23:47.180 --> 00:23:49.640 sort of academic knowledge to bring that together 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:52.059 in a really encouraging way. I think like this 00:23:52.059 --> 00:23:54.839 has been helpful for us to think about, you know, 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.490 that this is the work of the whole church. that 00:23:57.490 --> 00:24:01.769 each one of us has a part to play in just loving 00:24:01.769 --> 00:24:04.029 across difference, getting to know people across 00:24:04.029 --> 00:24:06.150 difference. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you 00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:08.589 so much, Kyla. Yeah. And thank you for tuning 00:24:08.589 --> 00:24:11.329 in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I 00:24:11.329 --> 00:24:13.809 pray that you are able to find spaces to love 00:24:13.809 --> 00:24:16.849 and to engage with wonder and curiosity across 00:24:16.849 --> 00:24:19.329 whatever sort of cultural differences you find 00:24:19.329 --> 00:24:21.910 yourself in, and maybe even be surprised by how 00:24:21.910 --> 00:24:24.369 God shows up there. And we'll see you again next 00:24:24.369 --> 00:24:24.589 week.