Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. And I am thrilled
to be joined here by Jess and Mike. And each
of us have different unique experiences in working
with churches or just being part of churches
and faith organizations around the world. And
so I'm excited to sort of, yeah, dive into our
stories a little bit more, get to hear what some
of that learning and things has been like. So
thank you for joining me, folks. It's great to
be here. Yeah, thanks for having us. Maybe we'll
start with a little bit of an introduction. So
Jess, do you want to start to say a little? little
bit about yourself and about, you know, what
are some of the places and the work that you've
been part of? Sure. Yes. So hello, I'm Jessica.
And so I grew up in London, Ontario. And I'll
just say, yeah, I kind of grew up in very monocultural
setting. But yeah, as time went on, I've had
a lot more, yeah, experiences out there. So the
first kind of experience I had was I did a semester
of university in Jordan and we also did some
regional travel there so that was about four
months and then um since graduating I've um worked
at Canadian Baptist Ministries and I've been
able to travel to India with them and then I'm
now working for Mennonite Central Committee and
I've recently been to Kenya okay very cool And
Mike, what's your background and experience been
like? Yeah, I also grew up in a very monocultural
world. I grew up in New Brunswick and was there
for a long time. But really, after university,
I joined World Vision as an intern. And really,
that was my career path for the next. 35 years
or so until just recently I was the CEO of World
Vision Canada and now doing consulting with international
organizations and still involved in that space.
Yeah. And been really privileged over the years
to have some pretty amazing cross -cultural experiences.
Sure. Everything from, yeah. being in Timbuktu
with the Tuareg people in Mali to Afghanistan,
South Sudan, you name it. Very cool. Some really
interesting places, East Africa. Yeah. And then
also experiencing cross -cultural understanding
of Christians, even in the organization. Sure.
The work that I do with people from all different
backgrounds. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I think so. I also grew up, I grew up in
rural Nova Scotia, again, in a very sort of monocultural.
place overall. And yeah, first, probably experience
of, of at least living and working internationally.
You know, I did a couple of short term mission
trips in high school and early university, and
then spent six months living in Albania to go
to Bible school there. Um, and then, yeah, uh,
finished up, uh, did my, uh, degree in international
development and then started working with Canadian
Baptist ministries. And so had the privilege
of working mostly with folks in, uh, Asia and
Europe. Um, yeah. And just getting to sort of
see what some of that was like. Um, but then
I also think about like coming to Mississauga,
coming to Toronto, at least for me was again,
another, one of those experiences of being in
Canada and coming face -to -face with the multiculturalism
that exists here that just was not a reality,
I think, in rural Nova Scotia. I don't know if
you folks coming to the GTA, London's not quite
as far away, but it's a different world, right?
For sure, for sure. I'll say, I think, yeah,
growing up for the longest time, I was very much
just... Grew up in like Dutch circles. That's
my background. But then I think in high school,
I remember that's around when the Syrian refugee
crisis came about. Sure. And then I started to
notice a lot more changes. So I was working in
the summer as a lifeguard. at a pool that was
within an apartment complex. So that summer is
when I really noticed a big shift was when all
these refugees started moving into the building.
Sure. And yeah, just those interactions there.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Just starting to notice
even, yeah, like you said, sort of within our
cultural context, there's a lot of change happening
for sure. And we saw that even at World Vision,
which is actually based here in Mississauga.
And we had an incredibly diverse. staff background
people from all over the world yeah and i was
always amazed we had chapel services once a week
and somebody told me one time from the canadian
council of churches was there as a speaker yeah
and they said that they thought that this was
probably the largest multi cultural multi -denominational
gathering that happened every week across Canada.
Cause there were 400 people in this room and
different backgrounds and, you know, dozens of
different, different experiences. It was just
a really rich and you just realize how much you
can benefit from that diversity. Yeah, for sure.
And I think so cool. Like often we think about,
and I think we're going to go on to talk about
cross -cultural experiences where we leave Canada
and experience life in another culture, but it's,
it's so real here as well. Like you don't need
to travel across the ocean to get it. Yeah, so
when you think about what some of your cross
-cultural experiences have been like, what are
some of the things that surprised you about those
experiences? Do you want to start us off, Mike?
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Maybe this
is going to sound like a strange comment maybe,
but some of it has surprised me as I look back
on how my understanding about what cross -cultural
understanding actually looks like has changed
over the years. I think when I started, you know,
I was... I think I'm a naturally curious person.
I really enjoy difference. I don't get threatened
by that. It's like it's really interesting. But
I think I kind of went in idealistic to say,
oh, well, at the end of the day, we're all just
the same. Sure. I mean, which is actually. true
we're all created in god's image but i think
that if if we risk flattening those differences
too quickly then we actually realize we're missing
so much more of what diversity really looks like
cross -cultural understanding yeah and so it's
been a surprise just recognizing that actually
the more i've been in this space working with
people from all around the world actually the
more humble i need to be to realize that actually
my way may not be the best way and it's actually
if we if we just flatten differences we're going
to actually miss the opportunities to to really
experience sure what we can learn from each other
i don't know jess if you've experienced that
too yeah so when i was preparing to go to jordan
and when we were there we did a lot of work studying
around yeah cross culture um and just learning
Yeah, as much as we could about all the differences.
Like, for example, Rob mentioned today, like
people have different understandings of time.
Right, exactly. In the West, we're very much,
you got to be on time and it's got to start on
time. Right, you follow the clock. In the Middle
East, when I was there, that's very much not
the case. So we had to adjust our expectations
and our understanding of what that means. And
it's not wrong, it's just different. Sure. We
have to get used to that. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Time is a great example, but even things like
what's truth? How direct are you? What do relationships
look like? How do you handle conflict? How do
you deal with authority? Like all of these things,
if you just sort of assume those away, you know,
assume that they're all the same, then you're
going to really miss out on that deeper level
of understanding. For sure. Yeah, I think some
of the things that surprised me the most in some
of these cross -cultural experiences was just
like what I learned about myself. just as much
as like what I learned about the culture, like
learning, oh, I really value my independence
and my ability to like read a room and understand
what's happening. And when I can't do that because
of cultural differences or because of linguistic
differences, like that irritates me to my core.
And so this is the thing I need to like then
learn and deal with and like figure out what
I want to do about that. But like. Yeah, I think
just the learning about myself is also a really
big piece of that. And it's the hidden things,
too, right? It's the assumptions that we make
about ourselves and about other people. Yeah.
And you can kind of really, you don't realize
until you're kind of in these contexts that it's
like, oh, yeah, I just assumed everybody thought
this way. Right. Or maybe every Christian thought
this way. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, having
these experiences has really strengthened. the
muscle I'll say of discomfort, like just, yeah.
Like working your way through discomfort and
unknowns and just like being okay with that.
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Getting, yeah. Being
okay with that for sure. Yeah. I think one of
the other things that I don't know if surprise
is the right word, but one of the things that
I sort of. realized again and again in some of
these experiences was just that like that there
are so many differences but like some of the
core things are the same and like just getting
to recognize so for example I had an experience
like talking with some youth and young adults
in the Philippines and they were like sharing
about their struggle with like finding their
own place in the church and like figuring out
how do I lead in this space that like doesn't
quite fit the way that I think things should
be done and that sort of thing right and feeling
like I can identify with that like we are experiencing
some of the same things just like in a different
context right like yeah just like those moments
of like bonding i think are really important
i've sometimes thought about it as as if it's
it's the the curiosity and understanding gets
built the deeper insights come when when we allow
our stories and other people's stories to overlap
sure right and that so those those youth it's
not you're not talking a um like a generic values
conversation. It's about their lived experience,
similar to your lived experience. And you find
those points of connection in the middle of that.
Yeah. And yeah, rather than kind of assuming
that, you know, we're all the same, that's actually
not the destination. That's really, it's a starting
point. Sure. But then it's layering on that understanding
of. of story and experience and when our story
and their story and then God's story kind of
all interact, that's where that's the pretty,
something pretty powerful happens. Yeah, for
sure. For sure. Yeah. So as you think about some
of the different experiences that you've had,
like what, what are challenges that come to mind
for you that, that you've faced? Yeah. Um, yeah.
So living abroad for four months. Yeah. Uh, the
biggest challenge was of course, communication
and language, um, in a completely different language
context. So yeah, just learning the language
is very challenging. Um, especially Arabic. It's
one of the more challenging languages to learn.
Um, yeah, so that's a big thing. And I think
just personally for myself, like I'm, I'm more
of a like perfectionist, so I don't want to like
try try the language until like i feel like i
know it really well right you don't want to like
try it and get it wrong yeah so but you have
to do that to learn language sure yeah yeah yeah
definitely yeah what are a few mic challenges
i think some of it for me um again Moving from
the sort of idealistic perspective was recognizing
that cultural differences, it's not just differences
in what you wear or what you eat. And you can
celebrate that. And I'm glad that we're going
to be doing that at Trinity, for example. But
if we just limit it there, then we kind of reduce
their cultural differences to something very
shallow and almost kind of like put it on its
side. Those are just like the visible layers
of culture, but not the hard part. Here's an
example. I traveled a lot in East Africa. You
said you've been in Kenya. And there's always
wonderful singing and dancing. The culture is
often about honoring people who are there. Sure.
As somebody who's in a space to kind of get something
done, it's like, well, let's just let's skip
the speeches and the singing and the dancing
and let's move right to the conversation. Surely
that's going to be the meat of things. Right.
And I realized over the years that actually probably
as I look back, like my desire to kind of get
beyond that ignored what was really a very significant
cultural expression of honor and the way that
you establish relationship is through celebration.
It's through. It's through formality. It's about
sitting in different places. I just, I, you know,
we have this kind of egalitarian approach to
maybe in North American culture where it's like,
oh, that's, we're all the same. Let's just sit
on the ground and have a conversation. Right.
No, there, it actually was a, there was something
significant about being honored and letting people
honor and kind of speak, making that space that
was the necessary relational. lubricant if you
will for the for the conversations you're going
to have and that was a learning for sure I really
had to kind of get my head around to let go of
my assumptions around actually this is this you
know 45 minutes of speeches is a waste of time
we're not getting to what we actually need to
get to yeah yeah actually what we need to get
to is exactly this which is to honor and understand
and to speak yeah I think like I think about
because often in the work that I was doing like
with Canadian Baptist Ministries I was going
in like representing an organization and a partnership
that had sometimes existed for for decades or
even like hundreds of years right and and so
to go into those spaces like what they are doing
in some of those moments is like honoring this
legacy that we're building together right and
it does it I have felt really awkward in some
of those moments where I've been like this is
Like because it feels like it's an honoring of
me and like I don't feel worthy of that. I don't
feel like I really represent that. But like to
think of it as an honoring of a partnership of
the kingdom of God that we're building together.
That's right. I think kind of helps soften it
a little bit. No, it's a great that's a great
insight. But it is you have to grapple with that
and realize that culturally it's kind of like
this. you know, cognitive dissonance a little
bit around who we think we are and what we're
representing and so on. And that was a real,
that was a learning. It took a long time for
me to get my head around. Yeah, for sure. For
sure. I think the other thing that I have often
struggled with in cross -cultural spaces is just
like figuring out like what colonization looks
like in that particular context. Because I, as...
someone who comes with a lot of privilege just
by my appearance, let alone by my wealth and
where I come from and the organizations that
I represent. Right. Like I always walk into a
space and like I try to be cognizant of that.
But the way that that shows up in East Africa
is different than the way that that shows up
in Southeast Asia or in Thailand or wherever.
Right. Like it's and so just trying to understand
how do I steward my power well? And how do I
share that power well with the people that I'm
trying to work with there? I think has always
been a tricky bit of the work, I think, for me.
Jess, how does that look at MCC? Because, I mean,
the justice orientation and so on, that you must
have to grapple with those kinds of dynamics
as you do your work. Yeah, for sure. And, yeah,
I feel like I'm still, like, very much at the
start. Like, I'm learning so much every day.
Yeah, it's definitely something you want to,
when you're going to all these different places,
you want to have that awareness and learn as
much as possible. And I think the biggest thing
I've learned so far is leaning on those local
partnerships as you're visiting. They know the
context. well and they'll be able to guide you
through it yeah and i think the other thing that
i've really appreciated is in almost in every
context where i've gone into i am there very
temporarily and there are other folks other canadians
even who are there on a on a more long -term
basis and so just to like debrief with them and
to say hey this is what i'm experiencing like
how How have you managed to navigate this tension?
And like, what's the best thing to do? Like really
leaning into those other people with the solid
relationships, I think is super helpful. Absolutely
that. And, you know, have that ongoing learning
posture as a piece, but also recognizing that
you can't ever, you can't just wish away your
differences. Sure. I still remember actually
my very first kind of big challenging. uh cross
-cultural experience i was in the west africa
country of mali in the seventh region up in the
desert actually with the tuareg people and it
was in the middle of a a drought and there was
a food crisis and i remember sitting down we
were there getting stories from from families
that was there and i remember sitting really
under this leather shelter with her grandmother
and her child. And she was explaining to us,
you know, opening up her life and her stories
to say how difficult it was for her to feed her
grandchild. And the only thing that she had option
was like, you know, kind of look through the
sand for these grains of wheat that may have
blown from somewhere else. And just a really
challenging thing. And I was struck by the fact
that, yeah, she's opening up. I'm trying to make
this connection. Yeah. But at the same time,
I've got an airline ticket in my back pocket,
like ready to go back. At any moment, like I
can't ever really be in that same space. And
that was a moment to say there's some of those
cross -cultural moments like you can't. Yeah,
you just need to like sit in the challenge of
it. You have to sit in the challenge. Exactly.
And the more, you know, going through life, it's
just like context change, power dynamics more
even than good intentions matter. It's not an
easy space. Cross -cultural conversation that
goes beyond. reductionist, simple flattening
of differences, or even just celebrating dress
and music and food, misses out on some of those
differences. And you have to grapple with that,
especially as Christians. Totally. What does
that look like? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we've talked
through some of the challenges, but I'm sure
there are also many blessings, many things that
bring us joy in some of this work. So what has
that been for you folks? Yeah, Jess, what have
been some of the blessings that you've experienced?
I think the biggest thing is a greater appreciation
for hospitality and receiving hospitality, especially
in the Middle East. where I was there for four
months. Um, yeah, hospitality is just such a
huge part of the culture and it's like, everyone's
just so welcoming and yes, really, really incredible.
Um, yeah, like they don't know us at all. Like
we had our, um, our travel agent invite our whole
cohort of 20 some odd young people over to his
house um to throw us a huge dinner and yeah it
was just incredible yeah yeah Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. I think the same for me is like that, just
like noticing the generosity of people, like
materially, but also just like with their lives,
right. That like, there is this often sense that
like, you are just being welcomed. You're being
invited into something that, like I said, I just,
I feel like I don't deserve that, but like to
get to partake in it and to feel the unity of,
of Christ and of church in, in the midst of all
of that, for sure. Yeah. What about for you?
Yeah, for me, I think it is. I mean, I know I've
said a lot about how challenging cross -cultural
stuff is and all that kind of stuff, but it is
those moments of connection, particularly as
followers of Jesus. I've had these moments of
being, you know, in churches and in challenging
parts of the world and this deep sense of, you
know what, I have come, I'm from such a different
culture. different background, different denomination.
But this is something that these people really
are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Like,
what does it mean to celebrate that and to be
together and to share communion? I remember being
in the Central African Republic in an area that
was... in the middle of a civil conflict. And
I was there on, on Palm Sunday and walking, going
with the local Catholic church and, and their
church for their, like a procession around the
church, around the whole community, waving palm
branches and just thinking, this is unbelievable.
Like it might, this is bringing an understanding
of what Jesus coming meant in this context so
differently, so meaningfully. And it's this common
bond of connection, you know, as we just. basically
went around and sang Hosanna to say, yeah, notwithstanding
all of the violence and despair and darkness
in this place and conflict, Jesus, the Prince
of Peace is coming. And that's the same in Canada.
It's the same here, same in Central African Republic.
And it was just profound. So those moments of
deep connection, particularly around faith, I
mean, it just brings me joy and it gives me hope
in the midst of all of that. And to realize that,
yeah. it's a really challenging story that we're
living right now, but God's already got the answer
written. Right. We know what that looks like
in his kingdom. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Yeah. I think just like bringing all of those
pieces of faith together is something again.
Yeah. Like you said, that brings me a sense of
joy that like. I've always like I grew up in
a particular denomination, but like I've always
sort of thought of my faith journey is like a
little bit bigger than that of being like, OK,
I don't want to be limited to one expression
of doing church and of faith. And so getting
to see. not just what faith looks like across
Canada, but like, what does faith look like in
these other nations in these other cultures?
Right. Like, yeah, it just gives me a bigger
picture of like who God is. Yeah. That's a huge
gift for sure. Yeah. I would say the same thing,
like being able to visit all these different
churches and faith communities around the world
is amazing. And I think back to going to church
regularly in Jordan, we had Um, we went to this
church that was, um, Arabic, but also had English
translations. Thank goodness. Um, but it's just
like, it just made me think like, wow, this is
like a little picture of the kingdom of God.
Like this is what it's going to be like. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. For sure. Um, so we think about
that. Are there any other ways that you would
say that like cross -cultural experiences have
shaped your faith or shaped your understanding
of God? I think, um, I think maybe one, one thing
I've learned over the years and I'm still learning.
And I would say actually, as I get older and
I continue to do this work, I realized I know
less than I think I ever did. In fact, it's,
it's, it's more reflecting that recognizing that
we can hold similar values. And they're going
to be expressed in different ways. And difference
does not mean better or worse, I think. This
is going to sound really strange, but I've done
a lot of work internationally within the network
of world vision and leadership conversations.
And it's been a real learning to say different
cultures approach making decisions and thinking
about things, even with the same values in place.
So a good example is in lots of East Asian countries.
Conflict is something that you minimize. You're
less direct. You have to kind of figure out more
oblique ways of getting at it and surfacing stories
and making space. I've learned so much from...
in terms of how to navigate change and understanding
and mission and focus from my brothers and sisters
from Taiwan or Japan or whatever. Their patience
and understanding actually have helped blunt
some of my North American directness, I think.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just getting to understand.
Yeah, I think I like the way that you sort of
phrased that, that like we can all have different,
they're the same values, but those can be expressed
differently. Right. Because I think like the
kingdom values of Christ don't change. This is
laid out, but the way that we express those as
individual bodies of Christ, I think, yeah, it
changes for sure. Yeah. Anything else you would
want to add to that? I think that. My experiences
have really enriched my picture of Imago Dei,
like who God is, like all these encounters of
people we label as other. Yeah. That's really
actually who God is. Right. God is made up of
all these different people. Sure. Coming together.
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I think,
yeah, that. Another thing that sort of, again,
layers into that is like the language piece,
because I am someone who loves the idea of learning
another language, but really struggles with it.
But to hear other people express worship and
praise and prayer in their language, and then
like sometimes to get a taste of that through
translation or through conversation later, like
just recognizing how much the words that we use
shape. our understanding of who God is. And,
and I, I will find myself sometimes being like,
I like that word in that language. I'm going
to like adopt that into my quasi English vocabulary
because that just like gives me a whole other
like word picture of like who God is. Um, yeah,
it's, it's super cool to get some of those experiences.
Yeah. Anything else that any, either one of you
wanted to sort of add into our conversation?
Maybe I'll say that it's it's I think for me,
the biggest lesson, if I were to kind of summarize
it, is kind of learning to hold two things at
the same time. Sure. And one is this deep, common
humanity that we are all created in God's image.
And that's that's that's really that does connect
us. While also that that shared dignity is lived
out through so many different ways. Sure. And
we have to recognize that that that those things
we have to hold intention and sometimes actually.
That also means reflecting on what's most important
to us. Sure. And there are times when you can
engage in cross -cultural conversation. And sometimes
idealistically, we go in and say, well, everybody's
stories is fine. We'll just listen to their experience.
Sure. You still have to bring your own set of
values. Sure. You know, for a question of integrity
to kind of say, well, actually, I can go this
far, but not that far. And that's just a. being
authentic and open sure so it's it's allow if
we just listen and value other people's stories
without kind of the frame of our own and vice
versa then i think we're going to miss something
and there's a tension built into that sure i
guess i guess what i want to say is Cross -cultural
understanding really to go beyond the surface
is actually really hard. Sure. But it's an ongoing
important work. And it's a work. I think one
of the pieces you're highlighting there is it's
a work that requires us to get to know ourselves
as well. Right. Right. Because I don't come to
any situation as a blank slate. And so getting
to know, OK, what is my culture? What is my value?
And then being able to hold those loosely so
that we can have, you know, good conversation
with one another. But you need to start with
recognizing yourself. This is such a funny. still
the example but like I remember when my wife
and I first got married I didn't even realize
how many you know, family customs and cultures
I brought into our relationship. Like even like
a Christmas day, do you hand out presents one
by one or is it like a free for all? Even I remember
having a conversation with my father -in -law
who I still to this day don't quite understand
it, but he put the lights on his tree after putting
the ornaments on. I'm like, how is that even
a thing? But, but like I didn't, what I mean
to say, and that's a silly example, but it's
about, I actually had to question my own assumptions.
Well, sure. All right. I guess I just assumed
that everybody thought this way. Right. Everybody
puts their lights on first. Right. That's a tiny
example of the bigger understanding I've had
to have as we grapple with culture. Yeah. Just,
I have to question my own understanding and it
does understanding and being curious about others
starts, as you said, with being understanding
and curious about our own backgrounds. For sure.
I would, I would say the same thing. Like that
was a big part of our studies as well. Going
into Jordan was, yeah. taking a look at yourself
and realizing that you also come to the plate
with all these different things about yourself
and your culture. Like oftentimes in North America,
we, we kind of forget like where we came from,
like, and like, we have all these different cultures
and traditions, like, even though there's often
kind of this like melting pot kind of like assimilation.
Yeah, we still have all these little differences
and unique things about us. Yeah. We kind of
assume that everyone thinks like us or they want
to think like us. Right. And that's not necessarily
the case. No. I don't actually think that's what
real diversity and unity look like. No, I don't
think so either. I think, yeah, it's this getting
to experience the church in all of these different
places, getting to experience people even outside
of the church in all of these different places
gives us a picture of. what the kingdom of God
is like. And the kingdom of God is not just like
Trinity Church Streetsville. It is like all of
these things in all of these different places,
for sure. Yeah, well, thank you so much, folks.
I think this has been a really interesting conversation
to get to dive into some of these stories, some
of these learnings, but also really good encouragement
for us to think about how do we engage across
difference? How do we engage with people who
maybe are coming from a different culture or
who just think differently than we do? And doing
that all with this lens of like learning more
about who we are and who God is through the diversity
of people that God has created. So thank you
very much. Thanks, Kyla. Thank you for tuning
in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I
hope that you have also been blessed and encouraged
and challenged by this conversation and that
you know that who you are is a part of the Imago
Dei, but also who your neighbor is, is a part
of that Imago Dei and that together we represent
the fullness of God. Amen. We'll see you again
next week.