WEBVTT 00:00:03.269 --> 00:00:05.730 Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode 00:00:05.730 --> 00:00:08.800 of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. And I am thrilled 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:12.679 to be joined here by Jess and Mike. And each 00:00:12.679 --> 00:00:16.539 of us have different unique experiences in working 00:00:16.539 --> 00:00:18.879 with churches or just being part of churches 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:21.660 and faith organizations around the world. And 00:00:21.660 --> 00:00:24.300 so I'm excited to sort of, yeah, dive into our 00:00:24.300 --> 00:00:26.480 stories a little bit more, get to hear what some 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.079 of that learning and things has been like. So 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.059 thank you for joining me, folks. It's great to 00:00:31.059 --> 00:00:33.719 be here. Yeah, thanks for having us. Maybe we'll 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:35.619 start with a little bit of an introduction. So 00:00:35.619 --> 00:00:37.280 Jess, do you want to start to say a little? little 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:39.219 bit about yourself and about, you know, what 00:00:39.219 --> 00:00:40.979 are some of the places and the work that you've 00:00:40.979 --> 00:00:43.939 been part of? Sure. Yes. So hello, I'm Jessica. 00:00:44.859 --> 00:00:49.799 And so I grew up in London, Ontario. And I'll 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:53.619 just say, yeah, I kind of grew up in very monocultural 00:00:53.619 --> 00:00:57.460 setting. But yeah, as time went on, I've had 00:00:57.460 --> 00:01:01.640 a lot more, yeah, experiences out there. So the 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:06.620 first kind of experience I had was I did a semester 00:01:06.620 --> 00:01:11.239 of university in Jordan and we also did some 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:13.640 regional travel there so that was about four 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:18.959 months and then um since graduating I've um worked 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:20.760 at Canadian Baptist Ministries and I've been 00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:23.920 able to travel to India with them and then I'm 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:26.180 now working for Mennonite Central Committee and 00:01:26.180 --> 00:01:30.060 I've recently been to Kenya okay very cool And 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:32.420 Mike, what's your background and experience been 00:01:32.420 --> 00:01:35.500 like? Yeah, I also grew up in a very monocultural 00:01:35.500 --> 00:01:38.540 world. I grew up in New Brunswick and was there 00:01:38.540 --> 00:01:41.659 for a long time. But really, after university, 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:45.379 I joined World Vision as an intern. And really, 00:01:45.420 --> 00:01:49.180 that was my career path for the next. 35 years 00:01:49.180 --> 00:01:52.760 or so until just recently I was the CEO of World 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:54.799 Vision Canada and now doing consulting with international 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:57.739 organizations and still involved in that space. 00:01:57.840 --> 00:01:59.819 Yeah. And been really privileged over the years 00:01:59.819 --> 00:02:02.180 to have some pretty amazing cross -cultural experiences. 00:02:02.299 --> 00:02:06.680 Sure. Everything from, yeah. being in Timbuktu 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:10.340 with the Tuareg people in Mali to Afghanistan, 00:02:10.780 --> 00:02:13.759 South Sudan, you name it. Very cool. Some really 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:16.080 interesting places, East Africa. Yeah. And then 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:18.879 also experiencing cross -cultural understanding 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:22.080 of Christians, even in the organization. Sure. 00:02:22.139 --> 00:02:24.120 The work that I do with people from all different 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:27.400 backgrounds. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. 00:02:27.620 --> 00:02:30.159 Yeah, I think so. I also grew up, I grew up in 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:32.500 rural Nova Scotia, again, in a very sort of monocultural. 00:02:32.990 --> 00:02:37.889 place overall. And yeah, first, probably experience 00:02:37.889 --> 00:02:41.629 of, of at least living and working internationally. 00:02:42.389 --> 00:02:44.189 You know, I did a couple of short term mission 00:02:44.189 --> 00:02:47.289 trips in high school and early university, and 00:02:47.289 --> 00:02:50.110 then spent six months living in Albania to go 00:02:50.110 --> 00:02:53.509 to Bible school there. Um, and then, yeah, uh, 00:02:53.629 --> 00:02:57.449 finished up, uh, did my, uh, degree in international 00:02:57.449 --> 00:02:59.830 development and then started working with Canadian 00:02:59.830 --> 00:03:02.009 Baptist ministries. And so had the privilege 00:03:02.009 --> 00:03:05.289 of working mostly with folks in, uh, Asia and 00:03:05.289 --> 00:03:07.490 Europe. Um, yeah. And just getting to sort of 00:03:07.490 --> 00:03:10.990 see what some of that was like. Um, but then 00:03:10.990 --> 00:03:13.849 I also think about like coming to Mississauga, 00:03:13.930 --> 00:03:16.750 coming to Toronto, at least for me was again, 00:03:16.849 --> 00:03:18.830 another, one of those experiences of being in 00:03:18.830 --> 00:03:22.860 Canada and coming face -to -face with the multiculturalism 00:03:22.860 --> 00:03:25.599 that exists here that just was not a reality, 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:28.500 I think, in rural Nova Scotia. I don't know if 00:03:28.500 --> 00:03:32.020 you folks coming to the GTA, London's not quite 00:03:32.020 --> 00:03:34.439 as far away, but it's a different world, right? 00:03:34.539 --> 00:03:38.439 For sure, for sure. I'll say, I think, yeah, 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.259 growing up for the longest time, I was very much 00:03:41.259 --> 00:03:44.479 just... Grew up in like Dutch circles. That's 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.860 my background. But then I think in high school, 00:03:47.939 --> 00:03:52.800 I remember that's around when the Syrian refugee 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:56.819 crisis came about. Sure. And then I started to 00:03:56.819 --> 00:04:00.599 notice a lot more changes. So I was working in 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:04.310 the summer as a lifeguard. at a pool that was 00:04:04.310 --> 00:04:07.849 within an apartment complex. So that summer is 00:04:07.849 --> 00:04:11.370 when I really noticed a big shift was when all 00:04:11.370 --> 00:04:13.629 these refugees started moving into the building. 00:04:13.830 --> 00:04:17.029 Sure. And yeah, just those interactions there. 00:04:17.209 --> 00:04:19.430 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Just starting to notice 00:04:19.430 --> 00:04:21.589 even, yeah, like you said, sort of within our 00:04:21.589 --> 00:04:24.649 cultural context, there's a lot of change happening 00:04:24.649 --> 00:04:27.410 for sure. And we saw that even at World Vision, 00:04:27.470 --> 00:04:28.949 which is actually based here in Mississauga. 00:04:29.189 --> 00:04:32.360 And we had an incredibly diverse. staff background 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:35.100 people from all over the world yeah and i was 00:04:35.100 --> 00:04:37.199 always amazed we had chapel services once a week 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:39.060 and somebody told me one time from the canadian 00:04:39.060 --> 00:04:40.959 council of churches was there as a speaker yeah 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:42.699 and they said that they thought that this was 00:04:42.699 --> 00:04:46.040 probably the largest multi cultural multi -denominational 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.680 gathering that happened every week across Canada. 00:04:48.740 --> 00:04:50.379 Cause there were 400 people in this room and 00:04:50.379 --> 00:04:53.040 different backgrounds and, you know, dozens of 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:54.879 different, different experiences. It was just 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:57.160 a really rich and you just realize how much you 00:04:57.160 --> 00:04:59.639 can benefit from that diversity. Yeah, for sure. 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:01.899 And I think so cool. Like often we think about, 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:03.240 and I think we're going to go on to talk about 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.540 cross -cultural experiences where we leave Canada 00:05:05.540 --> 00:05:09.000 and experience life in another culture, but it's, 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:11.220 it's so real here as well. Like you don't need 00:05:11.220 --> 00:05:14.810 to travel across the ocean to get it. Yeah, so 00:05:14.810 --> 00:05:16.670 when you think about what some of your cross 00:05:16.670 --> 00:05:19.750 -cultural experiences have been like, what are 00:05:19.750 --> 00:05:22.230 some of the things that surprised you about those 00:05:22.230 --> 00:05:25.170 experiences? Do you want to start us off, Mike? 00:05:27.110 --> 00:05:29.610 Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Maybe this 00:05:29.610 --> 00:05:31.629 is going to sound like a strange comment maybe, 00:05:31.709 --> 00:05:33.810 but some of it has surprised me as I look back 00:05:33.810 --> 00:05:36.189 on how my understanding about what cross -cultural 00:05:36.189 --> 00:05:38.670 understanding actually looks like has changed 00:05:38.670 --> 00:05:41.769 over the years. I think when I started, you know, 00:05:41.769 --> 00:05:44.129 I was... I think I'm a naturally curious person. 00:05:44.189 --> 00:05:46.089 I really enjoy difference. I don't get threatened 00:05:46.089 --> 00:05:47.730 by that. It's like it's really interesting. But 00:05:47.730 --> 00:05:50.310 I think I kind of went in idealistic to say, 00:05:50.389 --> 00:05:52.069 oh, well, at the end of the day, we're all just 00:05:52.069 --> 00:05:54.579 the same. Sure. I mean, which is actually. true 00:05:54.579 --> 00:05:57.379 we're all created in god's image but i think 00:05:57.379 --> 00:06:00.500 that if if we risk flattening those differences 00:06:00.500 --> 00:06:03.860 too quickly then we actually realize we're missing 00:06:03.860 --> 00:06:06.100 so much more of what diversity really looks like 00:06:06.100 --> 00:06:08.560 cross -cultural understanding yeah and so it's 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:10.639 been a surprise just recognizing that actually 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:13.139 the more i've been in this space working with 00:06:13.139 --> 00:06:15.240 people from all around the world actually the 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:18.250 more humble i need to be to realize that actually 00:06:18.250 --> 00:06:20.389 my way may not be the best way and it's actually 00:06:20.389 --> 00:06:22.350 if we if we just flatten differences we're going 00:06:22.350 --> 00:06:24.850 to actually miss the opportunities to to really 00:06:24.850 --> 00:06:27.290 experience sure what we can learn from each other 00:06:27.290 --> 00:06:29.290 i don't know jess if you've experienced that 00:06:29.290 --> 00:06:33.529 too yeah so when i was preparing to go to jordan 00:06:33.529 --> 00:06:37.189 and when we were there we did a lot of work studying 00:06:37.189 --> 00:06:41.910 around yeah cross culture um and just learning 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:44.740 Yeah, as much as we could about all the differences. 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:47.100 Like, for example, Rob mentioned today, like 00:06:47.100 --> 00:06:49.459 people have different understandings of time. 00:06:49.660 --> 00:06:52.540 Right, exactly. In the West, we're very much, 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:54.920 you got to be on time and it's got to start on 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:57.240 time. Right, you follow the clock. In the Middle 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:59.199 East, when I was there, that's very much not 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:02.060 the case. So we had to adjust our expectations 00:07:02.060 --> 00:07:05.740 and our understanding of what that means. And 00:07:05.740 --> 00:07:08.759 it's not wrong, it's just different. Sure. We 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:11.500 have to get used to that. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:07:11.949 --> 00:07:13.509 Time is a great example, but even things like 00:07:13.509 --> 00:07:16.949 what's truth? How direct are you? What do relationships 00:07:16.949 --> 00:07:19.949 look like? How do you handle conflict? How do 00:07:19.949 --> 00:07:21.949 you deal with authority? Like all of these things, 00:07:21.990 --> 00:07:26.230 if you just sort of assume those away, you know, 00:07:26.230 --> 00:07:27.949 assume that they're all the same, then you're 00:07:27.949 --> 00:07:29.910 going to really miss out on that deeper level 00:07:29.910 --> 00:07:32.509 of understanding. For sure. Yeah, I think some 00:07:32.509 --> 00:07:35.009 of the things that surprised me the most in some 00:07:35.009 --> 00:07:36.589 of these cross -cultural experiences was just 00:07:36.589 --> 00:07:39.620 like what I learned about myself. just as much 00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:41.040 as like what I learned about the culture, like 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:45.519 learning, oh, I really value my independence 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:49.060 and my ability to like read a room and understand 00:07:49.060 --> 00:07:52.459 what's happening. And when I can't do that because 00:07:52.459 --> 00:07:54.680 of cultural differences or because of linguistic 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.600 differences, like that irritates me to my core. 00:07:58.860 --> 00:08:00.579 And so this is the thing I need to like then 00:08:00.579 --> 00:08:02.980 learn and deal with and like figure out what 00:08:02.980 --> 00:08:05.689 I want to do about that. But like. Yeah, I think 00:08:05.689 --> 00:08:08.089 just the learning about myself is also a really 00:08:08.089 --> 00:08:09.949 big piece of that. And it's the hidden things, 00:08:10.050 --> 00:08:11.790 too, right? It's the assumptions that we make 00:08:11.790 --> 00:08:13.389 about ourselves and about other people. Yeah. 00:08:13.509 --> 00:08:15.670 And you can kind of really, you don't realize 00:08:15.670 --> 00:08:18.089 until you're kind of in these contexts that it's 00:08:18.089 --> 00:08:20.209 like, oh, yeah, I just assumed everybody thought 00:08:20.209 --> 00:08:22.910 this way. Right. Or maybe every Christian thought 00:08:22.910 --> 00:08:28.449 this way. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, having 00:08:28.449 --> 00:08:33.440 these experiences has really strengthened. the 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:38.779 muscle I'll say of discomfort, like just, yeah. 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:42.820 Like working your way through discomfort and 00:08:42.820 --> 00:08:46.980 unknowns and just like being okay with that. 00:08:47.059 --> 00:08:50.299 Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Getting, yeah. Being 00:08:50.299 --> 00:08:53.399 okay with that for sure. Yeah. I think one of 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:55.600 the other things that I don't know if surprise 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:57.720 is the right word, but one of the things that 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:00.779 I sort of. realized again and again in some of 00:09:00.779 --> 00:09:04.220 these experiences was just that like that there 00:09:04.220 --> 00:09:06.279 are so many differences but like some of the 00:09:06.279 --> 00:09:09.600 core things are the same and like just getting 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.580 to recognize so for example I had an experience 00:09:12.580 --> 00:09:15.039 like talking with some youth and young adults 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:16.919 in the Philippines and they were like sharing 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:19.340 about their struggle with like finding their 00:09:19.340 --> 00:09:21.519 own place in the church and like figuring out 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:23.879 how do I lead in this space that like doesn't 00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:25.559 quite fit the way that I think things should 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:27.299 be done and that sort of thing right and feeling 00:09:27.299 --> 00:09:31.649 like I can identify with that like we are experiencing 00:09:31.649 --> 00:09:34.750 some of the same things just like in a different 00:09:34.750 --> 00:09:37.909 context right like yeah just like those moments 00:09:37.909 --> 00:09:40.190 of like bonding i think are really important 00:09:40.190 --> 00:09:43.070 i've sometimes thought about it as as if it's 00:09:43.070 --> 00:09:46.809 it's the the curiosity and understanding gets 00:09:46.809 --> 00:09:49.830 built the deeper insights come when when we allow 00:09:49.830 --> 00:09:52.190 our stories and other people's stories to overlap 00:09:52.190 --> 00:09:55.350 sure right and that so those those youth it's 00:09:55.350 --> 00:09:59.190 not you're not talking a um like a generic values 00:09:59.190 --> 00:10:01.509 conversation. It's about their lived experience, 00:10:01.570 --> 00:10:03.049 similar to your lived experience. And you find 00:10:03.049 --> 00:10:04.970 those points of connection in the middle of that. 00:10:05.049 --> 00:10:07.789 Yeah. And yeah, rather than kind of assuming 00:10:07.789 --> 00:10:12.690 that, you know, we're all the same, that's actually 00:10:12.690 --> 00:10:15.549 not the destination. That's really, it's a starting 00:10:15.549 --> 00:10:18.190 point. Sure. But then it's layering on that understanding 00:10:18.190 --> 00:10:21.860 of. of story and experience and when our story 00:10:21.860 --> 00:10:23.539 and their story and then God's story kind of 00:10:23.539 --> 00:10:25.940 all interact, that's where that's the pretty, 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:27.580 something pretty powerful happens. Yeah, for 00:10:27.580 --> 00:10:31.220 sure. For sure. Yeah. So as you think about some 00:10:31.220 --> 00:10:32.980 of the different experiences that you've had, 00:10:33.059 --> 00:10:35.519 like what, what are challenges that come to mind 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:40.679 for you that, that you've faced? Yeah. Um, yeah. 00:10:40.779 --> 00:10:44.139 So living abroad for four months. Yeah. Uh, the 00:10:44.139 --> 00:10:46.929 biggest challenge was of course, communication 00:10:46.929 --> 00:10:51.509 and language, um, in a completely different language 00:10:51.509 --> 00:10:55.509 context. So yeah, just learning the language 00:10:55.509 --> 00:10:59.090 is very challenging. Um, especially Arabic. It's 00:10:59.090 --> 00:11:01.850 one of the more challenging languages to learn. 00:11:02.149 --> 00:11:05.789 Um, yeah, so that's a big thing. And I think 00:11:05.789 --> 00:11:09.990 just personally for myself, like I'm, I'm more 00:11:09.990 --> 00:11:14.029 of a like perfectionist, so I don't want to like 00:11:14.029 --> 00:11:18.629 try try the language until like i feel like i 00:11:18.629 --> 00:11:20.230 know it really well right you don't want to like 00:11:20.230 --> 00:11:22.789 try it and get it wrong yeah so but you have 00:11:22.789 --> 00:11:25.490 to do that to learn language sure yeah yeah yeah 00:11:25.490 --> 00:11:28.830 definitely yeah what are a few mic challenges 00:11:28.830 --> 00:11:32.580 i think some of it for me um again Moving from 00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:35.240 the sort of idealistic perspective was recognizing 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:38.019 that cultural differences, it's not just differences 00:11:38.019 --> 00:11:39.860 in what you wear or what you eat. And you can 00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:41.700 celebrate that. And I'm glad that we're going 00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:43.320 to be doing that at Trinity, for example. But 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:45.379 if we just limit it there, then we kind of reduce 00:11:45.379 --> 00:11:47.860 their cultural differences to something very 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:50.659 shallow and almost kind of like put it on its 00:11:50.659 --> 00:11:53.799 side. Those are just like the visible layers 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:58.419 of culture, but not the hard part. Here's an 00:11:58.419 --> 00:12:01.080 example. I traveled a lot in East Africa. You 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.379 said you've been in Kenya. And there's always 00:12:03.379 --> 00:12:06.019 wonderful singing and dancing. The culture is 00:12:06.019 --> 00:12:08.460 often about honoring people who are there. Sure. 00:12:08.990 --> 00:12:12.049 As somebody who's in a space to kind of get something 00:12:12.049 --> 00:12:14.269 done, it's like, well, let's just let's skip 00:12:14.269 --> 00:12:16.169 the speeches and the singing and the dancing 00:12:16.169 --> 00:12:18.149 and let's move right to the conversation. Surely 00:12:18.149 --> 00:12:20.090 that's going to be the meat of things. Right. 00:12:20.210 --> 00:12:22.529 And I realized over the years that actually probably 00:12:22.529 --> 00:12:25.090 as I look back, like my desire to kind of get 00:12:25.090 --> 00:12:28.929 beyond that ignored what was really a very significant 00:12:28.929 --> 00:12:31.629 cultural expression of honor and the way that 00:12:31.629 --> 00:12:34.710 you establish relationship is through celebration. 00:12:34.950 --> 00:12:38.860 It's through. It's through formality. It's about 00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:41.559 sitting in different places. I just, I, you know, 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:43.480 we have this kind of egalitarian approach to 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:45.419 maybe in North American culture where it's like, 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:46.779 oh, that's, we're all the same. Let's just sit 00:12:46.779 --> 00:12:48.600 on the ground and have a conversation. Right. 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.399 No, there, it actually was a, there was something 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:53.799 significant about being honored and letting people 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:56.899 honor and kind of speak, making that space that 00:12:56.899 --> 00:13:00.519 was the necessary relational. lubricant if you 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:02.799 will for the for the conversations you're going 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:05.179 to have and that was a learning for sure I really 00:13:05.179 --> 00:13:07.620 had to kind of get my head around to let go of 00:13:07.620 --> 00:13:10.159 my assumptions around actually this is this you 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:12.559 know 45 minutes of speeches is a waste of time 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:14.200 we're not getting to what we actually need to 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:16.080 get to yeah yeah actually what we need to get 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.740 to is exactly this which is to honor and understand 00:13:18.740 --> 00:13:21.899 and to speak yeah I think like I think about 00:13:21.899 --> 00:13:25.100 because often in the work that I was doing like 00:13:25.100 --> 00:13:26.879 with Canadian Baptist Ministries I was going 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.080 in like representing an organization and a partnership 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.580 that had sometimes existed for for decades or 00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:35.740 even like hundreds of years right and and so 00:13:35.740 --> 00:13:38.279 to go into those spaces like what they are doing 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:41.500 in some of those moments is like honoring this 00:13:41.500 --> 00:13:44.539 legacy that we're building together right and 00:13:44.539 --> 00:13:48.899 it does it I have felt really awkward in some 00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:50.720 of those moments where I've been like this is 00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:53.259 Like because it feels like it's an honoring of 00:13:53.259 --> 00:13:56.500 me and like I don't feel worthy of that. I don't 00:13:56.500 --> 00:13:59.000 feel like I really represent that. But like to 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.700 think of it as an honoring of a partnership of 00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:03.980 the kingdom of God that we're building together. 00:14:04.100 --> 00:14:07.240 That's right. I think kind of helps soften it 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:08.919 a little bit. No, it's a great that's a great 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:11.559 insight. But it is you have to grapple with that 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:13.279 and realize that culturally it's kind of like 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:15.429 this. you know, cognitive dissonance a little 00:14:15.429 --> 00:14:17.429 bit around who we think we are and what we're 00:14:17.429 --> 00:14:19.450 representing and so on. And that was a real, 00:14:19.470 --> 00:14:21.169 that was a learning. It took a long time for 00:14:21.169 --> 00:14:23.730 me to get my head around. Yeah, for sure. For 00:14:23.730 --> 00:14:26.970 sure. I think the other thing that I have often 00:14:26.970 --> 00:14:29.330 struggled with in cross -cultural spaces is just 00:14:29.330 --> 00:14:32.809 like figuring out like what colonization looks 00:14:32.809 --> 00:14:36.450 like in that particular context. Because I, as... 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.419 someone who comes with a lot of privilege just 00:14:39.419 --> 00:14:42.179 by my appearance, let alone by my wealth and 00:14:42.179 --> 00:14:43.919 where I come from and the organizations that 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:47.320 I represent. Right. Like I always walk into a 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:50.220 space and like I try to be cognizant of that. 00:14:50.299 --> 00:14:53.080 But the way that that shows up in East Africa 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:54.820 is different than the way that that shows up 00:14:54.820 --> 00:14:57.879 in Southeast Asia or in Thailand or wherever. 00:14:58.059 --> 00:15:01.120 Right. Like it's and so just trying to understand 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:05.779 how do I steward my power well? And how do I 00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:08.840 share that power well with the people that I'm 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:10.600 trying to work with there? I think has always 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:14.720 been a tricky bit of the work, I think, for me. 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.659 Jess, how does that look at MCC? Because, I mean, 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:20.919 the justice orientation and so on, that you must 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:23.080 have to grapple with those kinds of dynamics 00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:26.840 as you do your work. Yeah, for sure. And, yeah, 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:30.240 I feel like I'm still, like, very much at the 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:32.519 start. Like, I'm learning so much every day. 00:15:33.690 --> 00:15:37.970 Yeah, it's definitely something you want to, 00:15:37.970 --> 00:15:41.129 when you're going to all these different places, 00:15:41.190 --> 00:15:43.909 you want to have that awareness and learn as 00:15:43.909 --> 00:15:46.690 much as possible. And I think the biggest thing 00:15:46.690 --> 00:15:52.330 I've learned so far is leaning on those local 00:15:52.330 --> 00:15:56.409 partnerships as you're visiting. They know the 00:15:56.409 --> 00:15:59.230 context. well and they'll be able to guide you 00:15:59.230 --> 00:16:02.929 through it yeah and i think the other thing that 00:16:02.929 --> 00:16:07.210 i've really appreciated is in almost in every 00:16:07.210 --> 00:16:09.409 context where i've gone into i am there very 00:16:09.409 --> 00:16:13.529 temporarily and there are other folks other canadians 00:16:13.529 --> 00:16:15.750 even who are there on a on a more long -term 00:16:15.750 --> 00:16:19.190 basis and so just to like debrief with them and 00:16:19.190 --> 00:16:21.190 to say hey this is what i'm experiencing like 00:16:21.190 --> 00:16:23.960 how How have you managed to navigate this tension? 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:26.259 And like, what's the best thing to do? Like really 00:16:26.259 --> 00:16:28.379 leaning into those other people with the solid 00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:31.639 relationships, I think is super helpful. Absolutely 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:34.000 that. And, you know, have that ongoing learning 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:37.500 posture as a piece, but also recognizing that 00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:40.639 you can't ever, you can't just wish away your 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:42.440 differences. Sure. I still remember actually 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.730 my very first kind of big challenging. uh cross 00:16:45.730 --> 00:16:47.769 -cultural experience i was in the west africa 00:16:47.769 --> 00:16:50.309 country of mali in the seventh region up in the 00:16:50.309 --> 00:16:53.210 desert actually with the tuareg people and it 00:16:53.210 --> 00:16:55.870 was in the middle of a a drought and there was 00:16:55.870 --> 00:16:57.870 a food crisis and i remember sitting down we 00:16:57.870 --> 00:17:00.389 were there getting stories from from families 00:17:00.389 --> 00:17:02.669 that was there and i remember sitting really 00:17:02.669 --> 00:17:06.940 under this leather shelter with her grandmother 00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:10.220 and her child. And she was explaining to us, 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.259 you know, opening up her life and her stories 00:17:12.259 --> 00:17:14.279 to say how difficult it was for her to feed her 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:16.599 grandchild. And the only thing that she had option 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:18.039 was like, you know, kind of look through the 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.740 sand for these grains of wheat that may have 00:17:20.740 --> 00:17:22.859 blown from somewhere else. And just a really 00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:25.319 challenging thing. And I was struck by the fact 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.279 that, yeah, she's opening up. I'm trying to make 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.359 this connection. Yeah. But at the same time, 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:31.900 I've got an airline ticket in my back pocket, 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:34.740 like ready to go back. At any moment, like I 00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:38.819 can't ever really be in that same space. And 00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:41.440 that was a moment to say there's some of those 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:44.019 cross -cultural moments like you can't. Yeah, 00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:45.660 you just need to like sit in the challenge of 00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:47.259 it. You have to sit in the challenge. Exactly. 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.539 And the more, you know, going through life, it's 00:17:50.539 --> 00:17:54.099 just like context change, power dynamics more 00:17:54.099 --> 00:17:58.839 even than good intentions matter. It's not an 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:01.299 easy space. Cross -cultural conversation that 00:18:01.299 --> 00:18:05.650 goes beyond. reductionist, simple flattening 00:18:05.650 --> 00:18:08.410 of differences, or even just celebrating dress 00:18:08.410 --> 00:18:12.430 and music and food, misses out on some of those 00:18:12.430 --> 00:18:14.009 differences. And you have to grapple with that, 00:18:14.109 --> 00:18:16.029 especially as Christians. Totally. What does 00:18:16.029 --> 00:18:19.390 that look like? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we've talked 00:18:19.390 --> 00:18:21.250 through some of the challenges, but I'm sure 00:18:21.250 --> 00:18:23.289 there are also many blessings, many things that 00:18:23.289 --> 00:18:26.789 bring us joy in some of this work. So what has 00:18:26.789 --> 00:18:30.369 that been for you folks? Yeah, Jess, what have 00:18:30.369 --> 00:18:32.130 been some of the blessings that you've experienced? 00:18:33.490 --> 00:18:38.730 I think the biggest thing is a greater appreciation 00:18:38.730 --> 00:18:44.210 for hospitality and receiving hospitality, especially 00:18:44.210 --> 00:18:47.799 in the Middle East. where I was there for four 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:51.000 months. Um, yeah, hospitality is just such a 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.539 huge part of the culture and it's like, everyone's 00:18:55.539 --> 00:19:00.220 just so welcoming and yes, really, really incredible. 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.960 Um, yeah, like they don't know us at all. Like 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:10.269 we had our, um, our travel agent invite our whole 00:19:10.269 --> 00:19:15.410 cohort of 20 some odd young people over to his 00:19:15.410 --> 00:19:20.329 house um to throw us a huge dinner and yeah it 00:19:20.329 --> 00:19:23.190 was just incredible yeah yeah Yeah, for sure. 00:19:23.309 --> 00:19:25.470 Yeah. I think the same for me is like that, just 00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:28.190 like noticing the generosity of people, like 00:19:28.190 --> 00:19:30.769 materially, but also just like with their lives, 00:19:30.930 --> 00:19:34.230 right. That like, there is this often sense that 00:19:34.230 --> 00:19:36.250 like, you are just being welcomed. You're being 00:19:36.250 --> 00:19:38.990 invited into something that, like I said, I just, 00:19:39.009 --> 00:19:41.450 I feel like I don't deserve that, but like to 00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:45.289 get to partake in it and to feel the unity of, 00:19:45.309 --> 00:19:47.710 of Christ and of church in, in the midst of all 00:19:47.710 --> 00:19:50.609 of that, for sure. Yeah. What about for you? 00:19:50.809 --> 00:19:52.670 Yeah, for me, I think it is. I mean, I know I've 00:19:52.670 --> 00:19:54.410 said a lot about how challenging cross -cultural 00:19:54.410 --> 00:19:56.710 stuff is and all that kind of stuff, but it is 00:19:56.710 --> 00:19:58.470 those moments of connection, particularly as 00:19:58.470 --> 00:20:01.490 followers of Jesus. I've had these moments of 00:20:01.490 --> 00:20:04.650 being, you know, in churches and in challenging 00:20:04.650 --> 00:20:07.309 parts of the world and this deep sense of, you 00:20:07.309 --> 00:20:09.569 know what, I have come, I'm from such a different 00:20:09.569 --> 00:20:12.490 culture. different background, different denomination. 00:20:12.650 --> 00:20:14.650 But this is something that these people really 00:20:14.650 --> 00:20:16.930 are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Like, 00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:18.750 what does it mean to celebrate that and to be 00:20:18.750 --> 00:20:22.009 together and to share communion? I remember being 00:20:22.009 --> 00:20:24.890 in the Central African Republic in an area that 00:20:24.890 --> 00:20:28.710 was... in the middle of a civil conflict. And 00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:31.849 I was there on, on Palm Sunday and walking, going 00:20:31.849 --> 00:20:34.029 with the local Catholic church and, and their 00:20:34.029 --> 00:20:36.789 church for their, like a procession around the 00:20:36.789 --> 00:20:38.829 church, around the whole community, waving palm 00:20:38.829 --> 00:20:41.170 branches and just thinking, this is unbelievable. 00:20:41.410 --> 00:20:44.970 Like it might, this is bringing an understanding 00:20:44.970 --> 00:20:49.109 of what Jesus coming meant in this context so 00:20:49.109 --> 00:20:52.529 differently, so meaningfully. And it's this common 00:20:52.529 --> 00:20:55.480 bond of connection, you know, as we just. basically 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:58.980 went around and sang Hosanna to say, yeah, notwithstanding 00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:01.099 all of the violence and despair and darkness 00:21:01.099 --> 00:21:03.640 in this place and conflict, Jesus, the Prince 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.220 of Peace is coming. And that's the same in Canada. 00:21:06.259 --> 00:21:09.259 It's the same here, same in Central African Republic. 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.000 And it was just profound. So those moments of 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.119 deep connection, particularly around faith, I 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:16.059 mean, it just brings me joy and it gives me hope 00:21:16.059 --> 00:21:18.099 in the midst of all of that. And to realize that, 00:21:18.140 --> 00:21:21.160 yeah. it's a really challenging story that we're 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:23.319 living right now, but God's already got the answer 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:25.299 written. Right. We know what that looks like 00:21:25.299 --> 00:21:27.680 in his kingdom. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.559 Yeah. I think just like bringing all of those 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.759 pieces of faith together is something again. 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:35.859 Yeah. Like you said, that brings me a sense of 00:21:35.859 --> 00:21:39.250 joy that like. I've always like I grew up in 00:21:39.250 --> 00:21:41.250 a particular denomination, but like I've always 00:21:41.250 --> 00:21:43.569 sort of thought of my faith journey is like a 00:21:43.569 --> 00:21:45.430 little bit bigger than that of being like, OK, 00:21:45.490 --> 00:21:47.809 I don't want to be limited to one expression 00:21:47.809 --> 00:21:50.589 of doing church and of faith. And so getting 00:21:50.589 --> 00:21:53.539 to see. not just what faith looks like across 00:21:53.539 --> 00:21:55.759 Canada, but like, what does faith look like in 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:58.099 these other nations in these other cultures? 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.759 Right. Like, yeah, it just gives me a bigger 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:04.240 picture of like who God is. Yeah. That's a huge 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:06.700 gift for sure. Yeah. I would say the same thing, 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:09.240 like being able to visit all these different 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:11.799 churches and faith communities around the world 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:17.599 is amazing. And I think back to going to church 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:21.069 regularly in Jordan, we had Um, we went to this 00:22:21.069 --> 00:22:25.109 church that was, um, Arabic, but also had English 00:22:25.109 --> 00:22:30.490 translations. Thank goodness. Um, but it's just 00:22:30.490 --> 00:22:33.650 like, it just made me think like, wow, this is 00:22:33.650 --> 00:22:36.349 like a little picture of the kingdom of God. 00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:39.569 Like this is what it's going to be like. Yeah. 00:22:39.569 --> 00:22:43.480 Yeah, for sure. For sure. Um, so we think about 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:45.000 that. Are there any other ways that you would 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.079 say that like cross -cultural experiences have 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:49.420 shaped your faith or shaped your understanding 00:22:49.420 --> 00:22:57.180 of God? I think, um, I think maybe one, one thing 00:22:57.180 --> 00:22:59.319 I've learned over the years and I'm still learning. 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.539 And I would say actually, as I get older and 00:23:01.539 --> 00:23:03.539 I continue to do this work, I realized I know 00:23:03.539 --> 00:23:05.960 less than I think I ever did. In fact, it's, 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:08.579 it's, it's more reflecting that recognizing that 00:23:08.579 --> 00:23:11.450 we can hold similar values. And they're going 00:23:11.450 --> 00:23:14.210 to be expressed in different ways. And difference 00:23:14.210 --> 00:23:18.230 does not mean better or worse, I think. This 00:23:18.230 --> 00:23:22.190 is going to sound really strange, but I've done 00:23:22.190 --> 00:23:23.849 a lot of work internationally within the network 00:23:23.849 --> 00:23:26.069 of world vision and leadership conversations. 00:23:26.190 --> 00:23:28.269 And it's been a real learning to say different 00:23:28.269 --> 00:23:31.289 cultures approach making decisions and thinking 00:23:31.289 --> 00:23:33.309 about things, even with the same values in place. 00:23:33.390 --> 00:23:37.230 So a good example is in lots of East Asian countries. 00:23:38.829 --> 00:23:42.109 Conflict is something that you minimize. You're 00:23:42.109 --> 00:23:45.670 less direct. You have to kind of figure out more 00:23:45.670 --> 00:23:48.089 oblique ways of getting at it and surfacing stories 00:23:48.089 --> 00:23:51.849 and making space. I've learned so much from... 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:55.640 in terms of how to navigate change and understanding 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:59.900 and mission and focus from my brothers and sisters 00:23:59.900 --> 00:24:03.160 from Taiwan or Japan or whatever. Their patience 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:05.880 and understanding actually have helped blunt 00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:08.819 some of my North American directness, I think. 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.900 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just getting to understand. 00:24:13.889 --> 00:24:16.150 Yeah, I think I like the way that you sort of 00:24:16.150 --> 00:24:17.789 phrased that, that like we can all have different, 00:24:17.809 --> 00:24:20.009 they're the same values, but those can be expressed 00:24:20.009 --> 00:24:22.829 differently. Right. Because I think like the 00:24:22.829 --> 00:24:27.250 kingdom values of Christ don't change. This is 00:24:27.250 --> 00:24:29.630 laid out, but the way that we express those as 00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:33.309 individual bodies of Christ, I think, yeah, it 00:24:33.309 --> 00:24:36.789 changes for sure. Yeah. Anything else you would 00:24:36.789 --> 00:24:43.640 want to add to that? I think that. My experiences 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:49.460 have really enriched my picture of Imago Dei, 00:24:49.539 --> 00:24:52.799 like who God is, like all these encounters of 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:57.539 people we label as other. Yeah. That's really 00:24:57.539 --> 00:25:01.339 actually who God is. Right. God is made up of 00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:04.440 all these different people. Sure. Coming together. 00:25:04.539 --> 00:25:08.240 Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I think, 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:12.420 yeah, that. Another thing that sort of, again, 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.140 layers into that is like the language piece, 00:25:15.380 --> 00:25:18.380 because I am someone who loves the idea of learning 00:25:18.380 --> 00:25:20.640 another language, but really struggles with it. 00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:26.240 But to hear other people express worship and 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.019 praise and prayer in their language, and then 00:25:30.019 --> 00:25:31.660 like sometimes to get a taste of that through 00:25:31.660 --> 00:25:34.019 translation or through conversation later, like 00:25:34.019 --> 00:25:37.880 just recognizing how much the words that we use 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:41.880 shape. our understanding of who God is. And, 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:44.259 and I, I will find myself sometimes being like, 00:25:44.299 --> 00:25:46.259 I like that word in that language. I'm going 00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:49.299 to like adopt that into my quasi English vocabulary 00:25:49.299 --> 00:25:52.339 because that just like gives me a whole other 00:25:52.339 --> 00:25:56.599 like word picture of like who God is. Um, yeah, 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.859 it's, it's super cool to get some of those experiences. 00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:03.299 Yeah. Anything else that any, either one of you 00:26:03.299 --> 00:26:05.279 wanted to sort of add into our conversation? 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:10.019 Maybe I'll say that it's it's I think for me, 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:11.619 the biggest lesson, if I were to kind of summarize 00:26:11.619 --> 00:26:14.259 it, is kind of learning to hold two things at 00:26:14.259 --> 00:26:17.380 the same time. Sure. And one is this deep, common 00:26:17.380 --> 00:26:20.680 humanity that we are all created in God's image. 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:23.440 And that's that's that's really that does connect 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.980 us. While also that that shared dignity is lived 00:26:27.980 --> 00:26:30.339 out through so many different ways. Sure. And 00:26:30.339 --> 00:26:32.420 we have to recognize that that that those things 00:26:32.420 --> 00:26:35.180 we have to hold intention and sometimes actually. 00:26:35.869 --> 00:26:38.130 That also means reflecting on what's most important 00:26:38.130 --> 00:26:40.390 to us. Sure. And there are times when you can 00:26:40.390 --> 00:26:43.150 engage in cross -cultural conversation. And sometimes 00:26:43.150 --> 00:26:45.170 idealistically, we go in and say, well, everybody's 00:26:45.170 --> 00:26:46.890 stories is fine. We'll just listen to their experience. 00:26:46.970 --> 00:26:48.990 Sure. You still have to bring your own set of 00:26:48.990 --> 00:26:52.430 values. Sure. You know, for a question of integrity 00:26:52.430 --> 00:26:54.309 to kind of say, well, actually, I can go this 00:26:54.309 --> 00:26:58.359 far, but not that far. And that's just a. being 00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:01.039 authentic and open sure so it's it's allow if 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:03.180 we just listen and value other people's stories 00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:05.180 without kind of the frame of our own and vice 00:27:05.180 --> 00:27:06.759 versa then i think we're going to miss something 00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:08.720 and there's a tension built into that sure i 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:10.880 guess i guess what i want to say is Cross -cultural 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:13.380 understanding really to go beyond the surface 00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:15.960 is actually really hard. Sure. But it's an ongoing 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:18.539 important work. And it's a work. I think one 00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:20.440 of the pieces you're highlighting there is it's 00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:22.380 a work that requires us to get to know ourselves 00:27:22.380 --> 00:27:25.720 as well. Right. Right. Because I don't come to 00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:28.660 any situation as a blank slate. And so getting 00:27:28.660 --> 00:27:31.019 to know, OK, what is my culture? What is my value? 00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:33.599 And then being able to hold those loosely so 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:35.440 that we can have, you know, good conversation 00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:37.900 with one another. But you need to start with 00:27:37.900 --> 00:27:40.019 recognizing yourself. This is such a funny. still 00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:42.099 the example but like I remember when my wife 00:27:42.099 --> 00:27:44.640 and I first got married I didn't even realize 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:47.950 how many you know, family customs and cultures 00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:50.609 I brought into our relationship. Like even like 00:27:50.609 --> 00:27:53.430 a Christmas day, do you hand out presents one 00:27:53.430 --> 00:27:57.069 by one or is it like a free for all? Even I remember 00:27:57.069 --> 00:27:58.650 having a conversation with my father -in -law 00:27:58.650 --> 00:28:00.670 who I still to this day don't quite understand 00:28:00.670 --> 00:28:03.309 it, but he put the lights on his tree after putting 00:28:03.309 --> 00:28:04.910 the ornaments on. I'm like, how is that even 00:28:04.910 --> 00:28:08.869 a thing? But, but like I didn't, what I mean 00:28:08.869 --> 00:28:10.910 to say, and that's a silly example, but it's 00:28:10.910 --> 00:28:13.349 about, I actually had to question my own assumptions. 00:28:13.390 --> 00:28:15.769 Well, sure. All right. I guess I just assumed 00:28:15.769 --> 00:28:17.849 that everybody thought this way. Right. Everybody 00:28:17.849 --> 00:28:21.109 puts their lights on first. Right. That's a tiny 00:28:21.109 --> 00:28:23.569 example of the bigger understanding I've had 00:28:23.569 --> 00:28:25.890 to have as we grapple with culture. Yeah. Just, 00:28:25.970 --> 00:28:28.230 I have to question my own understanding and it 00:28:28.230 --> 00:28:30.809 does understanding and being curious about others 00:28:30.809 --> 00:28:32.930 starts, as you said, with being understanding 00:28:32.930 --> 00:28:36.150 and curious about our own backgrounds. For sure. 00:28:36.190 --> 00:28:38.450 I would, I would say the same thing. Like that 00:28:38.450 --> 00:28:41.009 was a big part of our studies as well. Going 00:28:41.009 --> 00:28:44.700 into Jordan was, yeah. taking a look at yourself 00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:47.339 and realizing that you also come to the plate 00:28:47.339 --> 00:28:49.720 with all these different things about yourself 00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:52.539 and your culture. Like oftentimes in North America, 00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:56.400 we, we kind of forget like where we came from, 00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.259 like, and like, we have all these different cultures 00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:02.779 and traditions, like, even though there's often 00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:06.000 kind of this like melting pot kind of like assimilation. 00:29:08.109 --> 00:29:10.509 Yeah, we still have all these little differences 00:29:10.509 --> 00:29:13.769 and unique things about us. Yeah. We kind of 00:29:13.769 --> 00:29:17.309 assume that everyone thinks like us or they want 00:29:17.309 --> 00:29:19.630 to think like us. Right. And that's not necessarily 00:29:19.630 --> 00:29:21.450 the case. No. I don't actually think that's what 00:29:21.450 --> 00:29:23.829 real diversity and unity look like. No, I don't 00:29:23.829 --> 00:29:26.130 think so either. I think, yeah, it's this getting 00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:28.410 to experience the church in all of these different 00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:30.769 places, getting to experience people even outside 00:29:30.769 --> 00:29:32.390 of the church in all of these different places 00:29:32.390 --> 00:29:35.450 gives us a picture of. what the kingdom of God 00:29:35.450 --> 00:29:37.730 is like. And the kingdom of God is not just like 00:29:37.730 --> 00:29:40.230 Trinity Church Streetsville. It is like all of 00:29:40.230 --> 00:29:42.309 these things in all of these different places, 00:29:42.369 --> 00:29:44.890 for sure. Yeah, well, thank you so much, folks. 00:29:45.009 --> 00:29:47.329 I think this has been a really interesting conversation 00:29:47.329 --> 00:29:49.849 to get to dive into some of these stories, some 00:29:49.849 --> 00:29:52.849 of these learnings, but also really good encouragement 00:29:52.849 --> 00:29:56.630 for us to think about how do we engage across 00:29:56.630 --> 00:29:58.589 difference? How do we engage with people who 00:29:58.589 --> 00:30:00.569 maybe are coming from a different culture or 00:30:00.569 --> 00:30:04.140 who just think differently than we do? And doing 00:30:04.140 --> 00:30:07.380 that all with this lens of like learning more 00:30:07.380 --> 00:30:11.140 about who we are and who God is through the diversity 00:30:11.140 --> 00:30:14.529 of people that God has created. So thank you 00:30:14.529 --> 00:30:16.990 very much. Thanks, Kyla. Thank you for tuning 00:30:16.990 --> 00:30:19.950 in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I 00:30:19.950 --> 00:30:22.150 hope that you have also been blessed and encouraged 00:30:22.150 --> 00:30:25.170 and challenged by this conversation and that 00:30:25.170 --> 00:30:29.009 you know that who you are is a part of the Imago 00:30:29.009 --> 00:30:31.990 Dei, but also who your neighbor is, is a part 00:30:31.990 --> 00:30:34.650 of that Imago Dei and that together we represent 00:30:34.650 --> 00:30:37.210 the fullness of God. Amen. We'll see you again 00:30:37.210 --> 00:30:37.650 next week.