Good morning, everyone and welcome to this week's
episode of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm
Britton. Naraya. Good morning. My name is Bill.
And we're here to continue chatting about Advent,
this season that prepares us to celebrate the
birth of Christ. And today we get to light three
candles. One, two, three. So first candle, hope.
Second candle is peace. The third candle is joy.
And just to make it extra fun, the third candle
is pink. Love it. Yeah. It's actually my favorite
color. This is awesome. Um, yeah, I don't actually,
I meant to look up why this candle is pink and
then I neglected to do that. Oh, is it like purposely
pink? Yeah, the joy candle is always pink. Yes.
Oh, you know. Okay. It is, uh, it's, it's meant
to, uh, um, most of the candle or most of the
time of an event is, is a time of, um, uh, repentance.
But the week that we talk about joy is meant
to be a time of exuberance. So part of representing
that is the pink color of the candle. OK, there
we go. See, I didn't need to look it up. You
were here to provide all of the knowledge. Exuberantly
joyful, really joyful. This is awesome. OK, so
then when we think about joy, other than exuberance,
are there other words or sort of ideas that come
to mind for us? a deep sense of happiness. It's
not just, you know, happiness is like, oh, okay,
I'm happy. I got a cup of water. Yeah. Or my
tea or coffee. Bill is slightly more happy because
his cup has coffee. I have tea. I have tea. I
am slightly more happy than her. But like joy
is like, it runs deep. It's like, it's almost
like as if it's coming out of your belly. That's
how deep I feel. Okay. Yeah. Belly explosion
of joy. I won't even say what I'm thinking. This
is just a very joyful conversation already. We
just say joy and snap. So when I think of joy,
I think of my own experiences of joy. For me,
I think that when I've been the most joyful is
probably the birth of my children. It's been
kind of an explosion of joy for that. And ups
and downs since then, as is the case with everybody.
But joy, I mean, incredibly joyful, the birth
of a child and raising a child and seeing them
grow up and stuff like that for sure. And then
because it's Advent and we're talking about the
coming of Jesus, And Advent is the anticipation
of Jesus' birth. So if I think, how joyful was
I at the birth of my child, then God must be
super joyful at the coming of the birth of Jesus
and the joy to the world and what that's going
to mean. And I know lots of people have... gender
reveal party. So I'm just imagining, you know,
what a gender reveal party would be for God or
for Jesus. But in his case, it would be more
like a messiah reveal party, right? And when
you think about it, think about the Christmas
story, right? What an incredible messiah reveal
party is that? He put a star in the sky. You
know, he had angels, choirs of angels singing,
you know, angels appeared to the shepherds and
the wise men and the three kings followed the
star to find Jesus and all this kind of stuff.
I mean, that incredible Messiah reveal party.
That was the story of Christmas. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, what about for you, Bert, when you think
about joy? Well, I looked for the definition,
which I feel like maybe this is going to be a
segment now. What does Oxford Dictionary say
versus what does the Bible say? OK. And it says
a feeling of great pleasure and happiness. OK.
Which is true, which is true. But I guess when
we get into the text, we'll debunk it a little
bit. Yeah, for me, I feel like joy is like happiness
is a moment, right? It happens based on maybe
circumstance or like there's a moment in time
where you you feel like a great sense of happiness.
But joy to me has always been a hard word to
define. Sure. Because it feels almost inexplainable.
But when you when it happens, like the birth
of your child, when it happens, it's like, whoa.
And it's like that explosion, but a good explosion.
Yes, yes. So when I think about Joy, OK, and
the the Sunday, the Joy Sunday of Advent is a
particularly special Sunday for me because it
was on Joy Sunday that I was baptized. And it
was this like. Kind of as you said in explainable
feeling of joy Yeah That I was like like not
expecting at all and like going into this day
So I was baptized like when I was like 13 and
so it was like a process that I sort of went
through and then had to like share my Testimony
a little bit in front of the congregation. So
it's like a nerve -racking kind of experience
but then to be followed up with this In explainable
joy and the sense of like okay all is well um
even if it's not all well but like yeah just
that that feeling yeah that's funny because i
was yesterday my dad was in a play that just
so happened to be taking place at the church
that i was baptized and it was similar to you
like i went through this process and decided
to be baptized yeah and i was just looking at
the baptismal spot um that's there it's blocked
by a screen but i could still feel the essence
of it And I remember that feeling, like I remember
going through the hallway after I got dunked
and just being dunked into the water. Yes. There
was something, yeah, like what do you dunked
on? Like basketball, baptism by shots. But no,
like when that happened, it was it was inexplainable.
Yeah. And whenever I step into that building,
it's it's. There's something that happens to
me. Like, I feel like I'm teleported into being
a child in that moment. And it's just such a
unique experience. It's inexplainable, though.
Yeah. Yeah. Joy. It's a pretty cool thing. So
we sort of alluded to this. Like, there's a bit
of a difference, I think, between joy and happiness.
But if you were like to try and, like, pull those
two things apart, like, what would you say makes
them different? Um, I think like the similarities
is obviously like there's like, it's a positive
sort of feeling. Um, but like, I think you talked
about it, like joy being a little deeper, much
deeper because like when you're happiness, I
mean, when you're happy, you're kind of like,
okay, yeah, I'm happy about whatever is happening.
And it's like more circumstantial. Sure. Whereas
joy is like, It's like so deep rooted, like it's
part of your character almost. Right. Or like
how the, you know, when we're talking about the
fruit of the spirit, joy is one of them. Right.
So like your character, your personality, it
has it with it. Right. Right. And then even when
we're looking at scripture, all throughout Psalms,
you see sing for joy, shout for joy. Right. And
those are like. again, explosive expressions.
Whereas happiness is a little more like downplayed.
We're like, yeah, I'm really happy about this.
Right. That's how I see the difference. I feel
that the Bible talks more about joy than happiness.
But I think as a culture, we talk more about
happiness than joy. And I think they're on the
same side of the equation. Joy and happiness
are similar in some ways. I think one is a subset
of the other. I think happiness is a subset of
joy. You can contain happiness in joy, not the
other way around. But in a way, I think they're
separate and unique from each other. The Bible
talks about happiness and joy in the same sentence,
same verse. So that for me is a hint that there's
some difference between the two, that they're
not synonymous. And I think, like you, I think
happiness is kind of more of a feeling, but not
as... not as big and as strong and as deep as
joy is. And I think that also in terms of our
Christian faith, I think we're promised joy,
but not necessarily happiness. So I think that's
a huge distinction. When most people in our culture
are trying to be happy and some... Most? I don't
know. I might not be achieving it. Sure. Right?
That's hard for people where happiness is your
goal. Right. But if joy is your goal as a promise
of God, a promise from God, then when you're
not happy or as happy, You know, you're you you
realize that the end goal isn't to be happy.
The end goal is to experience the joy of God.
Right. And that can get you through those times
of unhappiness. Right. I think so. There's a
huge difference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I
agree with what both of you said. And in thinking
about it, like joy isn't circumstantial. I think
happiness has like a very clear roadmap as to
how you became happy. Um, but joy is something
that truly is a gift from God. Um, and it's,
it's like, I was thinking of, I don't know if
this might not be like my Grammarly moment, but,
um, like you can't say happy full. You say happy,
but you can say joyful, you can say peaceful.
Right. So to be full of. Yeah. Yeah. So it's
something that you receive. That's interesting.
You can't be full of happy. Yeah. I am full of
happy today. No, but yeah, but maybe maybe there's
a connection there. I don't know. Yeah, maybe.
I have to go back to my Oxford dictionary. So
then like this leads me as I think about like
the difference between joy and happiness to think
about like what do these things like look like
in the world? And I think happiness is like fairly
obvious in what it looks like. Like if someone's
happy, they're like smiling. They're like having
a good time. I think one can be joyful and not
be like. exuberantly joyful. Right. Like I think
there's such a thing as like a quiet joy, maybe
where like we we feel like, OK, this is good.
There's something good that we're like building
towards. But it makes space for the fact that
like not everybody is like feeling that in the
moment or like the moment itself is not the cause
of the joy, I guess. I don't know. Yeah. Like,
does that make sense? I think, yeah, it does
because like when, you know, when we say like,
oh, I'm enjoying this song. Right. We're not
like completely like dancing about and like singing
the lyrics or whatever. We're enjoying it just
in our own space. Sure. Right. And I also think
that when it comes to joy, like how you were
saying, like obviously we were talking about
it being explosive and everything. Yeah. And
I think it can be. It can be. But When you have
that deep sense, like even when the circumstance
seems like it's completely terrible. Yeah. Right.
Like I think I mentioned this way before, but
like about the book of Philippians, it's like
the happiest book or the book of joy. Right.
And what was his circumstance? He's in he's in
prison. His future looks like as if, you know,
death is around the corner. But he's just so
happy to be serving the Lord and like knowing
that he's reaching out to the people. that he's
just in that joy. Right. And it's a quiet joy.
And the only way he's expressing it is through
words. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me think
that in a lot of cases, when you're talking about
being happy, it's more of a personal me thing.
Yeah. It's my feeling. Yeah. And when you're
when you're talking about joy, it is more of
a communal or even global idea. The. For me,
the difference between happiness and joy, go
on a Christmas analogy, is like the Christmas
tree, the stand and the tree is joy. It's sturdy,
stable. Hopefully. It's done right. Just having
your tree up. You know, that is a great indicator
of the Christmas season. Yeah. But the it's the
it's the decorations, the lights, the tinsel,
the the ornaments. And that's for me, that's
happiness. And that's that's the that's the icing
on the cake. It's the ornament on the tree. It's
the happiness that covers, you know, that that's,
you know, is the bubbling up of joy or something
like that. Right. Yeah. Oh, that's solid. Yeah,
I think like joy. It is something that, how do
I say this? It's not circumstantial. I think
with joy, it shifts your perspective. I was reading
Philippians this morning and hearing Paul talk
about the circumstance that he was in and also
the circumstance that the Philippians were in.
He was thanking them for all the things that
they did for him. but also saying, like, I know
those things are not recognized. Right. Be joyful.
So like folks might not there might not be a
reason like people are not giving you a reason
to be joyful. Yeah. But through Christ, you have
this joy, despite what other people might think,
despite of what you're going through. Even Paul
talks about his own circumstance and he's like,
well, life's kind of rough right here. But I
consider it all joy because he sees what God
is doing. And I think that changes if we were
to apply it to our own lives. I think there is
joy when you're given that gift of joy. It gives
you an opportunity to see the world differently,
to see your own circumstance differently. And
that in itself is a reason to rejoice. It's not
like when you get something tonight, you have
this, you know, I'm happy about this because
I got something. He actually talks about the
fact that like it's. It's not something that
we can attain ourselves. Like, it's not like
there's no merit points for it. Yeah, for joy.
Like he was talking about, um, it's like, you
know, I have a reason to boast in my own merits
and the things that I've done. Like I and he
lists off how Jewish he is, um, and how he's
practiced all these things. And he has, he has
all these reasons to be. to be boastful, but
he's not boasting in that. He's boasting in Christ.
Right. He's boasting in what Christ has given
him. So, yeah. So regardless of what people are
going through. And I think for me, like that
was one of the things in my Christian journey
that has held me fast. It's not it hasn't been.
all the stability around me, but it's Christ.
And it's Christ being the anchor, regardless
of what we're going through, regardless of what
is seen or unseen, Christ is there. And in that,
that's reason enough to be joyful. Sure. Yeah.
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I actually want
to add, it reminded me of when I first started
my journey as a Christian, sometime like around
2019, something like that. I would claim myself
to be a Christian, but I would see people on
TikTok or YouTube, and they're talking about
Christ, they're talking about some of the words
that God has given them, and they would seem
so happy. And I'm like, here I am, I'm actually
happy with where I am, but that's a different
kind of happy. What are they doing that I don't
do? And when I first started, developing my relationship
with Christ. Right. I was like, hey, so you promised
peace and joy. How come I don't have it in that
deep sense? Right. And because they all seem
like they're really joyful, even though they're
like, you know, they're crying and some of those
videos are like, oh, my gosh, this is happening.
But God is so good. Yeah. And I'm like, how is
that? Why? How? It's not laughing for me. And
and then like. By 2020, when I finally got into
my word and dove deep and I was like, God, I'm
trying to surrender to you. I want to fully understand
what this is and what it means to be a Christian
and be your ambassador. And that was when I felt
joy for the first time and then eventually got
baptized. So, yeah, when you were talking about
like how it's like given kind of thing, I was
like, oh, my gosh, yeah, like I saw it with these
Christians who surrender their lives. Right.
And they were like, you know, despite everything,
they were like, we have this knowing that God
is so good. And so I feel this joy. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So when you talk about joy and what is
joy, I think the Bible talks about joy. There's
a. passage in John 15, it's, you know, the verses,
I have told you that this is, I told you this
so that my joy may be in you and that your joy
may be complete. It's giving me a sense that
there's, there's some understanding, there's
some essence. that is joy that John experienced
and had in his life and he wants to communicate
this to us so that we may experience this joy
and in fact it may be complete in us and the
passages before this is the vine and the branches.
So Jesus talking about that He is the vine and
the Father is the gardener and just kind of being
in Him and all this kind of stuff. And later
on, He says, as the Father has loved me, so have
I loved you, now remain in my love. If you keep
my commands, you will remain in my love, just
as I have kept my Father's commands and remain
in His love. There's remain in me, it's a big
part of that and there's love there. And then
that's when he has the verse that I've told you
this so that. you may so that I may pass on my
joy and your joy might be complete. So you look
to those earlier verses as a sense of what joy
is and understanding, you know, who Jesus is,
who God is, our relationship to Jesus, to God.
And then you get a sense of what makes up true
joy for us as Christians. Sure. Yeah, but it
is. very much connected to that, like, abiding
in God, being in God, spending time with God
and God's people and all of these things, right?
Because I think that's really helpful for us
to think about, like, how do we cultivate joy
and, like, what does joy look like? Because joy,
like I said, as we've all sort of said, can be
this, like, really big exuberant thing, but it's
built in community. Like I think one of the challenges
that sometimes comes up with joy is that we think
that it means that we need to be like super exuberant
and happy all the time and that we then like
sort of Bypass, you know the hard stuff and we
serve say ah, well sure life sucks right now
But the Bible says always be joyful and God says
here's some joy. So I just need to pretend it's
all good But like that's not joy joy allows for
the hard things brings them to God, brings them
to community and says, there's still good happening
here, I think. I can't remember if it's spiritual
bypassing, but it sounds like what you're describing.
Yeah. And I think that's an easy thing that we
tend to jump to. We tend to think like if I'm
going to be like a good Christian, if I'm going
to show that like God is good, then I need to
ignore all the bad things. And that's challenging
when if we're at church and a church member comes
to you and says, hey, my life is really garbage
right now. I'm going through a really difficult
time. the thing that we'll jump to is say, well,
you know, God is good. And you just like you
kind of ignore it. Sure. Let's just let's just
jump away from it. And I don't think that's what
Paul was doing in Philippians at all. And I don't
think that's what God calls us to do. I don't
think God calls us to ignore the difficult times.
But I think what it does like it's what God is
calling us to do is to tap into the source. Right.
to happen to the source, recognize that we're
a part of this vineyard that is being nurtured,
that is being sustained, not on our own merits,
not on our own good deeds, but by God. And God
promises to continue to do that. So I think it's
not necessarily ignoring the bad things, but
calling them out. I think if we call them out,
God will be there for us. I think it's easy for
us to think if I'm going to maintain a sense
of joy, then I need to ignore all the hard things.
Paul talked about being in prison. And then there
was lots of other moments we see in the New Testament,
the Old Testament of really terrible times. The
Psalms is a great place to go. David and a lot
of the Psalmist talked a lot about the difficult
things that they were going to, and they wrote
songs about those things, not to bypass them,
but to say, you know, God, you promised me this
thing. You promised me joy. You promised me peace.
And I know that if I tap into you. I can find
it and I can sustain. I can sustain what I'm
going through in that time. So I think that's
the best of circumstantial switch that we should
tap into that sets us apart from from the world.
Sure. Yeah, I think I think I agree completely.
I think instead of ignoring the troubles or I
think we should we should embrace them. I think
the Bible. calls us to be joyful in your trials
and tribulations, right? Rejoice when bad things
happen to you, basically. I think part of that,
I believe, is because... when we can strip away
the outer layer of happiness, the veneer of happiness,
and trials and tribulations and bad stuff happening
to us will make us less happy. It will tear away
that veneer of happiness. And I think when we
do that... I think it's part of God's plan for
us to understand and experience true joy, right?
Where the human feeling of happiness that, you
know, sometimes we have, which is great when
we have it. But when that is taken away, then
what we have left is the joy that God has gifted
us. you know, with the happiness away, we can
spend time in the joy part. We can experience
and understand more of what it means to be part
of that joyful community. And apart from, you
know, our own good feelings, right? I mean, to
experience God's blessing and love through trials
and tribulations. is a blessing. Sure. Right.
Yeah. And and so there is good in that. And I
think that good is being experienced, being bathed
in joy. Sure. Yeah. And relying on that as opposed
to, you know, feelings of happiness, which can
be elusive. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I
want us to sort of end on a practical note as
we think about like what joy is, as we sort of
talked about it. So then like Two questions,
I guess one is like, how do we cultivate joy?
And the other is like, so what does that like
look like? How do you know that you're like cultivating
and leaning into a sense of joy? Well, scripture
kind of goes like, you know, I mentioned this
in the previous this one as well, where it's
like, oh, we're supposed to rejoice always. And
then whenever we do pray and like give up our
prayers and petitions, we're supposed to bring
it with gratitude, with thanksgiving. And at
first, I never like, I kind of would ignore that
part about Thanksgiving because I'm like, I'm
not really grateful right now. Sure. So, Lord,
yeah, you're going to have to fix this mess.
Right. But once I started like. trying to practice
that at work or at home or with anything. Like,
imagine like waking up at like 6 a .m. to the
kids yelling, I don't know, baby shark, all the
time for like 15 minutes straight. It's hard
to be grateful when you're like, no, I want a
little more sleep. But at that moment, I'm like,
you know what, I'm actually glad that I'm surrounded
by kids because they're so joyful and like happy
and innocent. And this is like the most beautiful
time for the family as well, because that's like
that period that all the family like enjoys that
age. Sure. And so I'm like, OK, Lord, I'm actually
really grateful that I got to experience this
in a different way. Like I'm not part of that
family, but I'm grateful that I get to see their
happiness together. Yeah. Yeah. And then even
at work when I'm like struggling with like a
problem has come up, customers come something
saying something and I'm like, oh no, what do
I do? And I'm like, you know what Lord, I'm happy
that I have this problem and I'm going to be
able to get through it because you're giving
me the wisdom, you're giving me the strength.
And so once I started practicing that great gratitude,
I felt like a shift in the way that I was joyful
at work or joyful at home or any other circumstance.
And everybody is like, people like outsiders
would be like, oh, you're always so happy. Like
what's going on? And I'm like, that's Jesus.
Jesus did that. That's not me. I think joy is
a gift that's promised us from God. So I think
a simple answer is we can ask for it. Sure. And
and that's, you know, it's promised us to have
that sense of joy in our life. But I think there
is also a part for us to play. I think we like
a lot of other things that we've talked about
before. It is it's also a skill or an attribute
that needs to be developed within us. So we so
that so there needs to be like an intentional
effort to to. to grow that sense of joy in us
so they become a more prominent part of who we
are and our characters. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for
sure. Maybe this is maybe a bit of a formula,
but just going back to Philippians four, starting
at verse four, it says, rejoice in the Lord always.
I will say again, rejoice. Let your gentleness
be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be
anxious about anything. But in every situation,
by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, present
your request to God. And the peace of God which
transcends all understanding will guard your
heart and your mind. So the call is to rejoice,
to be joyful. I think the way that's shown to
the larger surroundings is by being gentle, making
sure that's evidence. and to be anxious about
nothing. You're putting your cares, carrying
your cares to God. So it's the reality that it's
not that things are going to be smooth, but it's
that you know that when things get rocky, that
you have a shelter. You have someone that's going
to be there for you in Christ. And then also
just like putting that on. So like, yeah, when
things get messy. You know who to turn to. You
know that you can you can pray to you can pray
to Christ. You can and you can bring those requests
to God and God will will take care of those things.
And I think that's the perspective shift that
we need to have, because there's going to be
things that are really challenging, like there's
going to be things that we're not going to be
able to turn around and to look at in a positive
light in our lives. I think about the horrible
abuses that people face. Yeah. What what is the
how do I turn that around and say, God? This
is why like there's there's not going to be all
those those opportunities for us to be able to
turn those things around. But even in those those
terrible circumstances, we know that we have
someone to turn to, right? Who promises to fill
our cup, who promises to protect us? Because
at the end, it's it's saying that God will. guard
your heart and your mind. Right. And that protection
is something that is inexplainable. And I think
that's why when when Christians truly experience
joy, it doesn't make sense. Right. Doesn't make
sense when you see people going through terrible
things and you see them with this different perspective,
not that they're happy and jumping around and
being like, yay, I had this persecution today.
Like, that's not I don't think that's what like
reality. That's not what people are doing. Yeah.
But that perspective shift is just knowing of
the tomorrow, knowing of the savior of that that
Advent experience, I think is is different. Yeah.
Yeah. Maybe that's the formula. Maybe. Maybe.
Yeah. I feel like it's a good start. Trust the
trusted source was from Paul. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I think that connecting it back to this season
of Advent, right, that we get joy through Christ
and and as we sort of said before, through Christ
in spending time with God, but also through Christ
in the community of Christ in the church and
spending time with other believers. Right. That.
Yeah. Joy. is a personal experience, but it's
cultivated communally and in the supporting of
one another and getting through all of life.
I also I would also say just to kind of end things
off in my own thinking is that joy is very evangelical.
It's something that God has gifted the world.
The coming of Jesus, joy to the world, the Lord
has come. It is a present, it is a gift, not
just for Christians. It is a gift to the world.
It's meant to heal the world. I mean, God has
given us that gift in the world, that gift in
Christ. And I think we as Christians are meant
to go out into the world and extend that joy
anywhere and everywhere that we go. Not just
being happy or being unexplainably, you know,
happy or joyful. And people looking at us weird.
You're a little obnoxious right now. What's that
guy on? And we say, Jesus! But to bring joy into
the world is more practical, like you were saying.
It is helping to respond to the needs of those
in the community that are going without. Bringing
joy to the world is helping to feed hungry families.
It's helping to house homeless people. It's bringing
services or making services available to those
who are going through mental health issues, you
know, it's it's it is being that that bridge
to responding to some of the, you know, kind
of the physical or earthly needs that often get
in the way for people to understand who God is
in their life. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Like it
goes back to the angels who visited the shepherd
said that they've come to bring you good news
of great joy for all people. We all get it. You
get some joy, and you get some joy, and you get
some joy. Like Oprah? Yeah. You just all get
it. I was having her Oprah moment. Yeah. I get
a check under my chair. Do I get a car? No, no
car. Unfortunately not. But the good news is
you don't need a car to be filled with joy. Amen.
Although a car would help. Destroying everything
we've talked about in the last half hour. Joy.
Joy. We all get that. Yeah. Thank you so much,
folks. It's a very joyful conversation, but also
I think a really helpful sort of angle to take
on this, right? That joy is contentment, joy
is this positive feeling that we feel, but it's
also something deeper and it's also something
that sustains us, right? Through all of the ups
and downs and who knows what of life. Yeah. Thank
you for tuning in to this week's episode of Trinity
Talks. I hope that wherever you are, you can
find some spaces of joy, whether you are cultivating
that for yourself or cultivating it in a sense
of community. May you have a very joyful Christmas
season and we'll see you again next week.