Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this week's
episode of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and
this week I have a very special guest with me,
Bishop Andrew Asbell, who is the Diascus and
Bishop for the Diocese of Toronto. And yeah,
we're just going to chat a little bit about what
your job looks like, what it means to be Anglican
in Toronto. whatever else comes up, I guess.
Wonderful. Looking very much forward to it. And
thank you for having me. Yeah. So maybe you can
just start by introducing yourself a little bit
and just telling us, you know, what led to you
pursuing ordained ministry to being a bishop?
Well, thank you. It is a long. A lifelong process,
I think. For sure. You know, I was born and raised
in a family where my father was a priest. And
eventually he would become the Bishop of Niagara.
So there was a time in my life where, in fact,
he was my father and my boss at the same time.
Okay, yes. But I, as I said in my sermon earlier,
I was a Sunday school dropout, not because Sunday
school was not boring, but because I needed something
a little bit more and liturgy. came that place
where I found a full expression and a sense of
being at home and really wrestled with the idea
that God might be calling me to ordain ministry.
It was something that I kind of put on the back
burner when I became a teenager, like most teenagers.
It didn't seem like a cool idea to me at the
time. Sure. And it wasn't until partway through
my undergraduate degree when I was at the University
of Waterloo when I realized that science, which
was the course that I was taking at the time,
while interesting, was not my passion. And I
slowly but surely started to get a sense that
God was calling me to ordain ministry. And I
started reaching out to people in my family and
those who knew me well, one of whom was my father,
who, when I came home after a Christmas break,
said, you know, Dad, I'm thinking about ordained
ministry. And he said. I wanted to talk to you
about that before you went back to school. I
believe you have a vocation. Okay. And that led
the long journey to trying seminary. And I made
the promise that I would try every year. And
year after year, it just felt much more at home
than I was. in the right place at the right time.
Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder, so my dad is
also a pastor and wondering, like, how does that
sort of play into your sense of call to ministry?
Because I know there's probably positives and
negatives there. Yeah, I think it's by, you know,
you tend to soak up so much of what the faith
is about, but almost by osmosis because you're
constantly in it. There are very few places in
the world where a pastor brings their children
to work. Yep. Right. And so you're, you're in
it all the time. And, and I think just watching,
listening, paying attention to how my father
interacted in his ministry became just like wearing
another part of my skin that was just very, very
much at home. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. So.
You sort of how does the transition work from,
OK, I'm pursuing this sort of called ordained
ministry to becoming a priest, to becoming a
bishop at some point. Like, what did that journey
look like? You know, I went through the process
with the diocese of Niagara and felt the call
to being ordained a deacon first, which is part
of our of our system of ordination, a transitional
diaconate. And then so was. Deaconed in 1988,
a whole long time ago, and then priesthood in
1989. And I served in a parish in Guelph, St.
George's, as an assistant curate. And then I
had my first solo flight. as a pastor or priest
in a small town called Acton. Okay, yes. And
there at St. Albans, started my first chapter
of doing that on my own. Okay. And then I progressed
from there to a new church plant in Oakville,
where we met in a high school cafeteria and went
through the process of building a new building.
Okay. And then moved to the Diocese of Toronto
and became the incumbent at Church of the Redeemer
downtown. Okay. Corner of Avenue Road and Blue
Street. Served there for 15 years and then served
as the dean of the diocese and the rector of
St. James Cathedral right downtown for a couple
of years and then was elected as the diocesan.
Okay. In 2018. In 2018. Okay. So you've been
doing this about seven or so years now. I've
just turned into my eighth year. Okay. Yeah.
So what does that look like? What does a bishop
do? Well, you know, the bishop is the symbol
of unity, is the symbol of the lead pastor, the
shepherd of the sheep and the flock of the diocese.
We have 200 congregations. We have a whole host
of other missions. We have chaplaincies and schools
and hospitals. And so my role working with the
other two suffragan bishops is really to nurture
a sense of being one together as community, of
tying together this very, very unique community
of Anglican churches, you know, both small and
large in rural areas as well as right downtown.
Working very closely with our clergy, we have
about 250 very active clergy and probably another
100 to 150 retired or those working part -time.
And so it really is about gathering the whole
community and being faithful together. Okay.
And what does that look like? In a week of a
bishop or in the month of a bishop, what does
that look like? Well, that's a very good question.
It's a whole new adventure every single day.
Sure. In my experience. Every Sunday, my wife
Mary and I hit the road and we go out to another
parish. This today is Trinity Streetsville. And
so the car points in different directions. And
that is, for me, the wonderful part of the week.
When the gathered people of God come and we worship
together. And through the week, I'm often in
places where I'm visiting other parishes, where
they're going through development changes or
they're in the midst of conflict. I meet a lot
with... staff at 135 Adelaide, which is our head
office. The directors and I spend a lot of time
together overseeing the work of the diocese itself.
I do some teaching and Bible studies, take services
during the week, and I'm present within the diocese,
but also beyond. So I've served on different
boards and committees for the Episcopal Church.
as well as in the UK. Because we're part of an
Anglican communion, it's not just resting in
Canada, it's much beyond. Sure, sure. Yeah. And
for you, I mean, you grew up in the Anglican
church. Was there any point where you felt like
there was a decision to stay in the Anglican
church? Like, what is it about Anglicanism that
sort of is... Draws you in. I love the Anglican
tradition because it provides so much room. You
know, I've never, ever contemplated leaving the
Anglican tradition. It very much is home for
me. And I think a community that can embrace
the diversity of theological interpretation,
of expression of liturgy from high angle Catholic
to low evangelical. that can span the expanse
of different languages, different cultures, different
settings. And when we get into places where there
are differences of opinion, differences of interpretation,
there's a real sense that the first, the default
is always that we walk together. We are in this
together. And so division is not something that
we take. We take it very seriously and we try
desperately to, to avoid that ever happening.
Sure. And, and so that's, I think for me, that's
the merit of the enterprise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
for sure. I think that's something that, so I
didn't grow up in, in Anglican context, but I
think that's something that also has sort of
drawn me in this direction, right? That I'm looking
for a church that focus, that puts the first
things first. Correct. And that lets us then.
Express that in a variety of ways, but do it
recognizing we're all family, even if we have
our familial challenges. Exactly, like a real
family. I mean, there is not a family that I
can think of that doesn't have conflict and doesn't
have separation. And when there is time of separation,
there's always, always, always the want and the
desire for reconciliation. That's who we are.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So what do
you find like most exciting or most rewarding
about the work that you do? Sunday mornings.
Sunday mornings is the cherry on top. You know,
it is what gives me breath and life to face another
week. When the when the gathered community is
together, I think watching communities grow both
in in numbers, but also in depth of spirit and
an expression of their faith is is something
that gets me up in the morning every morning.
knowing that we're making a difference in the
world. And it doesn't matter if you're in a large
parish downtown or in the suburbs or you're in
a tiny little parish in the rural areas where
only 10 or 12 people come. There's a real sense
of identity and a real sense of purpose and meaning
for those communities. That gets me up in the
morning. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Is there a
particular... aspect of like the Sunday morning
experience that like is sort of most captivating
for you? I think being with the community itself
and walking alongside, paying very close attention
to who the community is and how they express
their faith. Sure. Listening. Yeah. I love listening
to the stories of why people come, what sustains
them, what keeps them coming back. Sure. I think
are the stories that keep me Really enthralled.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And so while you're here
on Sunday morning, you're going to be doing some
confirmation, reaffirmation, reception. Is that
something that you do most weeks or not necessarily?
Not necessarily. So as the diocesan bishop, I
have a particular area of the Central Arch Deaconry
that I spend a lot of time in. And those are
often the places where I do confirmations and
reaffirmations. And because I have oversight
of the whole diocese, Our goal is to get into
every single parish before I retire and to worship
with every community at least once. So we've
been in probably 150 different. congregations
over the last seven years. And how many are in
the diocese? 200. Okay. Okay. So you're getting
there. They're getting there. Um, and so if we
can do that at least twice would be absolutely
a blessing. Um, doing confirmations, reaffirmations
are a real joy too, because you, you are, are
with young people and, uh, middle -aged folk
and sometimes seniors who are making this declaration
that's public, uh, that I find really humbling
and beautiful. Because the whole community gets
to be a part of that with them. Yeah. And none
of us walk by faith on our own. For sure. You
need the community to do that with you. Yeah.
Yeah. So when you think about this process of
confirmation and reaffirmation and that sort
of thing, what do you see that as doing or being,
I guess? I think it's one of those moments in
a person's life where they feel, a need to publicly
declare. And I know in some cases for younger
people, especially, it's often a moment when
a family says it's time for you to get confirmed.
Right. Sure. And some of those who come into
confirmation classes do so pretty reluctantly.
Sure. And it's often after and way later. I hear
back from folks like that who were reluctant,
who said, I had no idea at the time. Yeah. what
was really happening under the surface. But very
glad that my grandmother or my mother or my father
said it's time for confirmation. And a real sense
that God was working through them in a new way
that they had not really thought of before. And
one of the beautiful attributes of our tradition
is that you are confirmed once, but you can reaffirm
a whole host of times. And so there are moments
in our lives when we go through major transitions
and we say, here's an opportunity for me to be
able to declare that God has really helped me
through this moment. Right. And I want my family
to know about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool
the way that like God. God works in those ways
that like are almost a surprise to us. They shouldn't
be a surprise that this is how God works. But
like in those moments, it's like, whoa, God shows
up again. God is faithful again. Always. And,
you know, in the reading today, one of the beautiful
aspects of Luke, when Luke says, you know, if
you're living a generous life, if you're living
a life. where you're dressed and ready for action,
your, your lamp is burning with, with a passion
for the good news. Jesus will show up and serve
you. Yeah. You know, you are, you are served
at the same time that you are serving. We actually
don't, we don't recognize that sometimes. Yeah.
It's often after the fact that we realize, Oh,
that's how this works. Yeah. Yes. It's, it's
definitely that. Continuous process of re -encountering
Christ. Absolutely. In these big moments, in
confirmation and that sort of thing, but also
just like in the weekly practice of receiving
Eucharist, in the daily practice of prayer, of
showing up. Exactly. Re -encountering Christ.
Indeed. Yeah. So cool. So when you think about
all of this work that you do, are there moments
that are particularly challenging for you? Yeah,
I think that conflict is always a part of the
journey. Sure. And that's a big part of my work,
is helping congregations, helping leaders. work
through their conflicts. And it's probably the
hardest thing that I do and probably the best
thing that I do. Because if I can stand in the
breach with the community, with the person and
know that I'm there, you're here, we are in this
together, holy things happen. They always do.
And sometimes you don't know the fruits of that
moment until way after. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I think about that. As you said, conflict is
always hard. But I think the value of having
a wise leader and someone who, I mean. You're
part of it by virtue of being part of this diocese,
but sometimes a little bit external to the particular
parish. Correct. Right? Like that I think is
super helpful in this moment. Exactly right.
And as a bishop, you have the responsibility
of being present. You have the responsibility
of showing up. And to be in a space where you
know people are vulnerable and that hurt has
been experienced. And and they're stuck. They
don't necessarily have a way through. And so
my a big part of my call is is helping that happen.
Help to find that avenue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for
sure. For sure. So when you think about your
work in the last little while, where's a moment
where you've seen God show up? Oh, my goodness.
First of all, I would say. I was a bishop for
about a year and then COVID happened. Right.
And I would say that especially through that
COVID moment, what I experienced as a bishop
was grace upon grace upon grace of moments when
God showed up in a time when we did not know
what we were doing. Yep. And going online like
we are now. Yeah. And watching clergy take the
risk of having podcasts and doing live broadcasts
and learning how to be vulnerable in a time when
we did not know what the future was going to
hold. Sure. I think that experience for me set
me on a different trajectory as bishop to say,
we got to try everything. We've got to be present
in every way that we possibly can. And and those
who when I watch congregations large and small
take those of those risks. Yeah. Jesus is always
present. Yes. Always. Always. And and I I'm always
moved by those simple gestures. When I think
of St. George Grafton, a tiny little town. And
most of the community members are north of 75
years old. And they really wanted to be a part
of a wider community event and ministry. And
so they joined Habitat for Humanity to build
housing for those who could not afford. And they
knew that they couldn't climb ladders. Yeah.
But they chose, in fact, because they know hospitality.
Right. They provided meals for 16 build days.
Okay. And they understand that that is what they
are called to do. They are Mary and Martha in
that moment. Serving the needs of those who are
providing housing and shelter for the most vulnerable.
Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, to
think about these. 200 churches that are all
in 200 or more different places. Yeah, just doing
the work that God is calling them to do in that.
Place and space and moment. Incarnational. Yeah.
You know, and it's true. And we don't really
sit down very often as Anglican churches and
count all of the points where ministry is happening.
Sure. In some ways, I'd love for us to do that
at some point. Sure. Just to say, how have you
been influenced or changed somebody's life this
week? Yeah. We are very bashful, I think, about
telling the good story. And we need to be more
in practice of what that means. Sure. to be able
to share that good news to say, let me tell you
what happened for me this week. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think it's, you get a particularly
good like lens on that, right? Because you get
to go around and see all of these different churches.
I think it's really easy for us at Trinity or
at any local church to sort of think, okay, this
is the stuff that we do in Streetsville in this
place at this time. And we forget. that we're
connected to this whole family of people. Well,
and that was one of the great gifts in COVID.
You know, if you were just a congregational community,
you have only yourself to rely on. As a diocesan
community of 200 congregations, we could hunker
down together and start learning from each other
in a completely different way. And for the longest
time, a lot of Anglican churches have been, you
know, falsely had a sense that we were competing
against each other. We were doing our thing.
You do your thing. But now I think there's a
change in the diocese where I think more congregations
and leaders say, we need to help each other.
Sure. To learn how to be present in a changing
world. You know, the fastest growing demographic
are those who have no connection with any religious
organization. And that's the mission field for
all of us. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. future of the
Diocese of Toronto looks like? We don't have
a crystal ball to say this is exactly what it
is, but where are you hoping that we're moving
towards? Well, I often use the expression, for
those who will listen, that we are operating
on a two and 300 year plan. Businesses tend to
look at five and 10 year cycles. And for us to
be able to say, We are a faithful community.
In our liturgy, we say Christ is risen, Christ
has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Our pledge is to be present when Christ comes
again. It might take 100 years, 200 years, 300
years more. And so for me, the future for the
Diocese of Toronto is to set that horizon as
high as we can to say, how do we meet 200 years
from now? That's going to be influenced by the
decisions and the ministry that we do today.
And I think the season of spiritual renewal,
which we've just come through as a diocese, sets
us on a wonderful course to be able to say, we
know that the first things are the first things,
which is discipleship and evangelism. And we
are embarking on that. And in a whole new way,
I find now Anglicans are much less bashful than
they used to be in being able to say, I have
a good story to tell. So I see a wonderful future
for the Diocese of Toronto. I see a much more
diverse Diocese of Toronto as the face of immigration
changes in the greater Toronto area. I see a
depth of different languages being spoken. We
have at least 12 different languages now being
spoken on Sunday mornings in parishes across
Toronto. And I see more of that. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Very cool. setting a 300 year horizon and,
and saying our goal is to like meet Jesus there.
Like, obviously a 300 year horizon is not when
I personally will be there to meet Jesus, but
to think about how do I set up this community?
Well, so that 300 years from now. Someone can
be sitting here experiencing Christ. Well, and
somebody came to faith because you said something.
Yeah. And then they say something and then they
say something and then they say something. Yeah.
And that is how the Christian community and gospel
is spread person to person. Yeah. And so it's
in the intimate as well as in the communal that
we do that work. And it takes me and it takes
you in the present to say, I want to see that
church 300 years from now. Yeah. So I have work
to do. Yeah. Lots of work. Exactly. Lots of really
good work. Keep your lamps burning. Yeah. You
know, be dressed and ready for action, as the
gospel says this morning. For sure. Yeah. So
we spend quite a bit of time here talking about.
Bishop Andrew and the work that you do. So when
you're not busy being a bishop, what does life
look like for you? Well, it's a busy life. Mary
and I, my wife Mary and I have five children,
two boys and three girls. And we try and spend
as much time as we can with them. They range
in age from 21 to 28. Okay. They're very, very
active people. And so when we get a chance to
be in their presence, it's just wonderful. Sure.
And besides that, we love to travel together.
We love doing home renovations, hanging out with
friends. listening to live music okay uh we we
try and spend every ounce of our time together
okay oh that's beautiful so any current renovations
on the go uh well i i've uh just finished doing
some roofing in the summer and some uh some painting
of the of the sea house uh as well in the summertime
And we have a property up in Bala, which is in
Muskoka. Okay. And I have some new wood floors
to put down at some point. Ah, okay. We're getting
brand new flooring here at Trinity as well. I
heard that. Yes. Yeah, pretty impressive. Maybe
we should invite you to come on over and help
them out. I can help. I'm pretty good with a
sander. Okay. Well, there we go. Yeah, very good.
Well, thank you so much, Bishop Andrew. This
has been a delight to get to hear a little more
from you. But also, I think, To hear your heart
for this work and your heart for this diocese
and the churches. Yeah, it's so encouraging to
know that we have a leader who is leading with
love and compassion and with this desire to sort
of see us all come together now. 300 years from
now. Thank you. And I really appreciate your
ministry and what you do here at Trinity Streetsville.
And you do it so beautifully, very warm and engaging.
And thank you for the opportunity of having this
conversation. Yeah, you're very welcome. Yeah,
you as well. And thank you for tuning in to this
week's episode of Trinity Talks. I hope that
as you've been listening to this conversation,
whether you are part of our diocese or not, that
you have been able to sort of picture yourself
as part of. God's kingdom, as part of this global
church family that's moving here and into the
future together. And we will see you again next
week.