Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and this week
I'm sitting down with a very familiar face, Rob
Herkmans, our rector here at Trinity Streetsville,
and a less familiar face, Beth Benson. And we're
going to chat a little bit about clergy coaching,
which is something that I'm willing to bet not
a lot of people have heard about. But Rob, you
have called it your secret weapon. Beth is my
secret weapon. OK. Yes. And that is I'm actually
so pleased to finally get the chance to introduce
the people of Trinity to Beth, because actually
Beth has played a huge role in the life of this
place in kind of guiding me that that I don't
think people. fully um realize it yeah yeah so
Beth do you want to introduce yourself tell us
a little bit about who you are and what led you
into this work of clergy coaching clergy coaching
Kyla great to meet you as well so clergy coaching
is is a real passion of mine and I think it actually
became more clear to me in my practice of parish
leadership. I finally kind of retired about four
years ago from full -time parish ministry. But
each of my parishes that I was involved in, my
greatest joy often came in relationships with
divinity students, with the newly ordained, with
curates, and those who were discerning calls
to ministry right in the congregation. And over
time, as the Lord usually works, I came to see
that this was something that coming alongside
people who were discerning vocational call and
leadership is something that gives me great joy.
And so in the last four years since my retirement
from first full time ministry in 19 or in 2021,
Bishop Jenny Anderson then asked me to think
about whether I would like to join the diocesan
clergy coaching program. And after some prayer
and discussion with folks, I did some training
out of California and began. coaching. And it's
a wonderful, life -giving, faith -deepening ministry
for me, Kyla. But I wanted to share that it really
came to me out of the practice of parish ministry
myself as a leader. Right, yeah. So feeling sort
of grounded in your own leadership, but then
recognizing, you know, the things that God...
has given you a passion for, right? Yeah, exactly.
And one of those things is the big view of the
church and the opportunity over and over with
gifted leaders like Rob of getting up on the
balcony, so to speak, and looking at the big
view, the big picture, and really discerning
together what God is up to in our midst. And
really appreciating that the diocese has made
this a big priority. So it's guided and inspired
by our bishops and funded by the diocese. So
I think we're in a new era, to be honest, this
sort of renewal and spiritual restoration and
refreshment of the church comes alongside recognizing
that developing gifted leadership is a real part
of what God is up to. And I'm just so thrilled
to be part of it. Yeah, yeah, very cool. So what
is clergy coaching? Like, what does that look
like? What is your role? Yeah, I mean, there
are lots of things that both Rob and I could
say about that. But what I wanted to start off
with, at least, is that Clergy coaching is about
a relationship grounded in trust. It's grounded
in two disciples of our Lord and Savior who are
on a journey into the deeper heart of God individually
and then together. And so clergy coaching is
a journey alongside. a parish leader who is a
lifelong learner, someone who has gifts of skill
and character for ministry, and someone who has
the strength to say, I want to go deeper. And
I want to have the opportunity for one -on -one.
discussion and prayer to help me do that. So
that's kind of the 30 ,000 foot view of it, Carla.
And then within that, there are many, many more
details around developing and discerning shared
learning goals together. And then the role of
the coach, particularly in my case, is to be
an attentive listener and to be sometimes a corrective
voice, a challenging voice, but to resist the
temptation to get into the real day -to -day.
leadership ministry. So I like to remind myself
that my role as a coach is again... 30 ,000 foot
prayerfully coming alongside parish leadership
and asking what I hope are wise and spiritual,
sometimes provocative questions, but that are
all leading to the development of gifted leaders.
Right. So maybe not so much in the like, Hey
Rob, here's how you should run this staff meeting,
but more in the like, Hey Rob, how, what, what's
your vision? Where, where are we headed? How
do we sort of discern where God is leading us?
Big picture. That's a great summary, Kyla. And,
you know, and in that space to say, what is it
that's bringing you joy, Rob? Right. And where
do you see this in two years? Where do you see
it in three years? Right. And how are you taking
care of yourself along the way? Right. That's
also a really important part of coaching. But
I should say that actually, if I did ask Beth.
Beth, how should I run this meeting? Yes. She
would have something to say about that, too.
Like, I think that there are times I think when
we do maybe dive down into things that are a
little bit more nitty gritty, which, you know,
Beth brings all this great experience and expertise
with her that I want to learn from her on those
things, too. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
would you have anything to add to that? Like
when you think about like what the clergy coaching
relationship is like for you, like how would
you describe it? Yeah, I mean, first of all,
I think that people who are watching who've just
been listening to Beth speak, you probably already
have a sense of the kind of just pastoral heart
that she brings to this. And that is, I suppose,
I'm guessing it's important to find a good fit
between a coach and the clergy person that's
being coached. For sure. So I... Yeah, I just
feel like by God's grace, it's been a wonderful
fit. I think that Beth and I have some things
in common. We even went to Wycliffe. We were
at seminary for the same period of time, at least
we overlapped at seminary. So we do have some
things in common. But Beth also has a whole different
skill set and had a whole life before ordained
ministry as well that I think informs some of
the work that she does as well. So, no, yeah,
she's amazing. Yeah, very cool. So, Rob, initially,
why did you participate in this clergy coaching
relationship? Well, actually, initially, it's
not it wasn't really a choice. I don't believe
I think that the diocesan is wisdom said this
is a really important thing for for clergy and
especially clergy who are in the midst of transition.
So I believe there was a period of time when
every. clergy person who was beginning at a new
place of ministry was required. Am I right in
saying this? The requirement is a related program
called Momentum. That is another kind of variation
of PD. But this wasn't required? Not required,
but it was available on a limited basis when
we were first getting started, Rob. But now,
because of the demonstrated value added of it,
the College of Bishops has said, hey, we want
to make this more widely available. And one of
the keys is that it's one -on -one. coaching
together right right so there's that that customization
of of the program and the relationship as we
go forward and it's only 20 hours so we have
to make really best use of the time that we have
together but we spent more than 20 i mean the
first go around was longer yeah the first go
around was about twice that yeah to be honest
so and this was when you were new to trinity
yeah so that was actually another key thing to
remember is that when you're coming in brand
new to a place like trinity which I'll be honest,
it was a stretch for me, you know, as I've never
been in a leadership role in a church that was
quite like this or as big as this or as complicated
as this. And it was also in the midst of COVID,
right? The church was shut down. And so everybody
was trying to figure out what that meant and
how do we actually be the church. And, and so
when you're starting at a new church like Trinity
and you can't even meet, you can't even like,
man, oh man, it's, that's a. complex situation
and so uh yes i'm especially grateful that in
that complex moment this was available to me
um i i don't think i would have thought twice
i don't remember how exactly it started but uh
sure it just i'm so glad it came along yeah for
sure so you had this period of time where where
you were meeting sort of fairly regularly um
but then that time came to an end and now you've
sort of re -engaged this clergy coaching process.
So what sort of prompted that for you? Okay,
so you're right. I'm not starting here anymore.
I've been here close to five years now. But I
am, I don't know, I think I'm beginning to feel
and even as a staff team, we're beginning to
have conversations about that, you know, the
next season of Trinity could, you know, is also
could be particularly challenging in some ways.
There could be some opportunities that are coming
our way. And I just started to feel like, man,
I feel like I need a conversation partner in
this leadership role at this particular time
again. And I, you know. I always missed the coaching
conversations we have. I mean, I was never glad
that it was over in the first place. It was just
that it was free and it was provided with a dice.
So I would have happily kept it going to be quite
entirely honest, but it did come to an end. But
I don't know with some of the stuff going on
with some of the grants that we have, some of
the strategic realignment process that we're
going through right now, even just, you know,
working with and supporting our staff team. Yeah,
I. Really began to feel like, oh, it'd be good
to have that that partner again in some of these
is what I work through some of these things.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And so now reengaging this
process or sort of thinking about how it went
a number of years ago. What have you found most
helpful in this whole process? Well, we haven't
actually begun yet. So the re -engagement begins
tomorrow morning. Okay. So to be quite honest,
there actually was a bit of work to be done with
talking to our bishops to say, hey, we would
like to do this again. And they'd be like, what?
That's unusual. No one's kind of come to us and
asked to do it again. But I think they were actually
very interested to hear why we felt that way.
And I'm almost certain that I think. And they're
kind of in some ways watching this a little closely
to say, oh, interesting. There are other points
in the life of a church and the life of leadership
where this could be a valuable gift as well.
Yeah, so we had to kind of make a case for it,
right? Yeah, we made a successful case. And I
think also as part of the prelude, the preparation
for this next phase, Kyla, we've spent at least
three hours together asking ourselves, what are
the objectives of these next 20 hours? The guided
conversation, if we want to put it that way,
has some particularity about it. We know big
picture where this leadership ministry is being
called. And we know that within that, grounded
in what's going on here at Trinity and what God
is up to here, Rob is articulating some particular
goals that he wants to wrap his head around and
his prayer around. And the other thing I would
say is that in this season for me, I'm also involved
in coaching. a pastor who's starting his very
first incumbency. So it's a challenging and a
wonderful gift for me to have an opportunity
to come alongside Rob, who is a seasoned pastoral
leader, at the same time having a chance to come
along someone who's beginning a very first appointment
in this season. Yeah, very exciting. But I would
emphasize that part of the role that I think
is important for a clergy coach comes very, very
early. As Rob mentioned, we're sort of kicking
it off tomorrow. preparation for that, uh, in,
in discussing, maybe pushing back a little bit
with each other. What are these key goals? So
that we, we have a sense of, yeah, we can, yeah,
we can tweak them as we go, but there's, it's
not random. It's, it's, it's directed and organized.
Sure. And are these goals that you can share
with us? I mean, they're, they're so. OK, so,
for example, Trinity has this amazing vision.
We want to love Jesus, live like Jesus, lead
others to Jesus, you know, learn from Jesus.
And I think that as we kind of, you know, just
embrace that vision again, it's one thing to
have a great vision statement, but it's another
to be able to actually, you know, what is that?
What does that mean? What are we actually, what
does that mean in practice? How are we actually
living that out in concrete kind of ways? And
I think that I'm the kind of guy who sometimes
needs help making that transition from, you know,
the big idea, the big vision into the concrete
steps that kind of enact that. So definitely
there's a piece around living into our vision
as a church. I would also say that right now
we are in this moment where we have been receiving
some diocesan grants to try some innovative and
new programs. In fact, this very thing we're
doing right now is the result of some of that
support from the diocese. But that support is
waning, not intentionally. It's declining. That
was always the plan. And it's just because it
means that we have to. do some real kind of good
work around building up the resources to continue
this or find out what exactly is the best part
of all this learning and how do we carry that
on? How do we embed what we're learning over
these years into the life of this place in an
ongoing way? I don't want this grant period to
come to an end and then all of a sudden we're
like, oh, where did all that stuff go that we
were doing that was so cool, right? needing some
help that way. Sure. Related to that, I would
say is always needing help in managing an amazing.
staff team. Uh, but you know, there's, you know,
it's a fairly big team these days. There's lots
of people and they're all kind of different personalities.
And one of the things I loved in the early days
is when, when, uh, Beth and I were, were talking
every week, um, she really got to know the staff
team as well. She got to know, she never met
them, but she knew them by name. She knew all
of their kids. She knew every, you know, the
good, the bad, there was no ugly, but there she,
she knew, she knew. And it was great. She's like,
Oh, how is so -and -so doing with this? Or how's
it going? with that and how's it and that continues
to this day like there's a constant kind of need
for me to to um to make sure i'm doing the best
job that i can to create a healthy staff and
leadership culture sure here uh i don't take
it for granted you know you can lose it really
quickly i think if you make some bonehead moves
and some missteps so so getting some support
that way is also uh is also a thing and i'll
just say maybe one more thing is In the midst
of all that, I need a conversation partner to
be helping me stay healthy spiritually myself,
right? To ensure that I'm putting in the time.
to maintain a healthy spiritual life, the kind
of spiritual life that can actually undergird
and support the amount of work that we're doing
here. And I think a real crisis, well, we're
learning about this on our staff team right now.
We're reading a book together about how ensuring
that we have enough emotional and spiritual health
within us. to support all this doing. We have
to first invest in the being, and only then can
we lead into the doing. And so I think Beth will
be a great help to me in that regard, too, to
say, hey, Rob, are you taking care of yourself?
How is your prayer life going? What is God teaching
you these days personally in your own reflections
and quiet times and stuff like that? And how
are you? Are you getting away? Are you finding
time to retreat with God? You know, all those
kind of... things that I think are also part
of the package and one of the goals of our re
-engagement. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So when you think
back on the sort of history of this, this clergy
coaching relationship and process, yeah. Like
what, what did you find most beneficial? Uh,
and, and yeah, then why did you want to sort
of re -engage it at this point that you were
like, ah, I want to get that again. Yeah. Well,
as you know, although we have an amazing staff
team here, uh, I still, at this point happened
to be the only clergy person right here. So,
uh, and, um, I, we've done that very intentionally
and in many ways, I have no regrets about that
whatsoever, but there is this. pardon me from
time to time that, uh, does want to hear from
someone who has a perspective of being a parish
leader, a clergy person who's, who's gone through
some of these same kind of ups and downs and
struggles that I, you know, am encountering.
And so, yeah, I can always talk to you about
stuff. I can talk to Libby about stuff, Alex,
I got, you know, I have lots of people to talk
to. And Natalie is a great conversation partner
for me, but sometimes you do want that, that
person who has the. the pastoral ministry perspective
to bring, to bring to it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think
that's great. And I would also say this is a
mutual kind of faith deepening discipleship thing
that we're doing together rather unconsciously
or consciously. Like I really feel the blessing
of deepening my understanding of discipleship
and my, my yes to God as, as a disciple in this
stage of my career. And one of the, I've just
come from the nine 15 worship service, by the
way, and I feel thoroughly nourished. And upheld.
And I even met a few people that I've known from
other activities in the diocese. So I feel nourished
and grounded after being in worship with Trinity
here this morning. And to begin a morning with
a baptism, I mean, does it get much better than
that? So we're really wanting to celebrate and
to create that safe place for a conversation
that's safe and private but life -giving and
about formation. and recognizing the mission
that God is calling the whole community into
here. It's very exciting. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And that's another thing that I really appreciate
about how this relationship has gone is that
is, you know, Beth is very highly invested in
this place. And I mean, even back during COVID,
she was watching the services week by week, kind
of online. And again, getting to know the players,
getting to know the people, you know, and it
was. that was just so such a blessing to have
somebody who was paying such close attention
to all this stuff. And so, yeah, like I suppose
as a coach, if you have multiple people you're
coaching, it could, it could possibly be that
you just start to like, I'll ask the standard
questions, you know, how are things going, you
know, but it never felt like that. It felt like
she really knew this place. And, and, and even
this is the first time you've been here in person.
I was here in February of 2023. I came alongside
the pastoral leadership development team for
a bit of a seminar. And what a wonderful half
day that was. Sally and her team were leading
that. So that was really fun. But I was saying
to Kyla how I really feel part of the Instagram
community. Is it every morning that something
comes across my in basket? And I thought, wow,
this last. week the gospel is a door i mean whether
what i want to say is whether you're worshiping
here whether you're considering whether you're
seeking whether you're a longtime member of trinity
streetsville the idea that the gospel is a door
inviting you in to send you out as part of god's
mission the door opens The welcome is genuine.
I felt it this morning. I even got a name tag.
And then gently being sent into the world to
be God's hand and voice and heart. So, you know,
I've been in parish ministry a long time, but
I just wanted to say that that idea is so powerful.
It's so visual and it's so life -giving that
that's the kind of thing that you're speaking
to the Trinity family. But you're also speaking
beyond. You're communicating into the kingdom.
And that's something that I know Rob and I are
really passionate about. And so I think the coaching
relationship, there's a mutuality about it that
I want to say. And yes, I'm privileged to bring
perhaps a particular perspective to it. But it's
when it has this mutual component to it, I think,
that we both feel after a session like, well,
see you next time. And so it's a real gift. I
think, to both of us. Yeah. So then it sounds
wonderful. And you also, I think, mentioned earlier
this idea that, you know, sometimes there are
hard conversations. Sometimes there are provocative
questions that need to be asked. And so I'm wondering,
like, what are the challenges that you face as
you walk through this process together? Like,
what are the things that we as a church can be
like praying for you for in the midst of this?
Well, I think some of the hardest questions that
Beth might ask would be the why questions, right?
Even like when we were trying to put this together
to say like, let's do this coaching thing again.
You know, the question was why? There's got to
be a compelling why. And again, knowing my own
tendency to be an ideas person, to be a vision
person. Oh, let's try this or let's do that.
it's you know the hardest questions are sometimes
like you know why where does that fit how does
that you know yeah yeah help you live into your
vision and so uh i i appreciate those questions
i need those questions but those are some of
the harder ones i think that we could get asked
sometimes i ask questions about translating an
idea into action or or visualizing an idea and
and then and then having a feedback loop sure
so we can say hey that was an awesome idea uh
we've been running with it. This is what we've
been learning with the team, with the congregation
in general. Do we want to tweak it? Who's being
celebrated here? That's another thing about it.
But for me, these are all normal challenges.
These are things that we want to welcome. And
I think that that's where the coaching relationship
on trust is really important. We mentioned that
already. We want to create that safe place, knowing
that God is in charge of this and that we are
trying to tune our ears and our hands and our
hearts to be able to faithfully respond. It's
as easy and delicate and precious as that, I
think. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, one other thing
that, you know, does is kind of a challenge is
that challenge. But you have to we have to make
time for this. Right. Like so there has to be
a willingness to set aside time to prepare for
these conversations than to to take the learnings
away and try to do some implementation. So it's
it's, you know, I think to get the most out of
them, you've got to carve out some margin in
your your schedule. And so that's always a challenge,
but it always pays off to do that work. Yeah,
yeah, for sure, for sure. And Rob is, as you
know, he's a great initiator. So he's really
keen to take the, if there's one or two actions
that come out of our hour together tomorrow,
he'll take those and work on them. And then so
that the onus is on Rob, right? I I'm just the
lazy conversation partner. And how are you? So,
yeah, that's, but that's where he's the director
of it. Right. And prayerfully in the power of
the spirit directing this. And then, so we have
this, this kind of a unique relationship. Yeah.
It's awesome. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I think.
We've covered a lot of ground in sort of talking
about, you know, going from, well, first of all,
what in the world is this? To, yeah, what does
this look like in the life of Trinity? What does
this look like in your life, Rob? Is there anything
we've missed? Anything else that either of you
wanted to sort of make sure our congregation
knows about this relationship or about how this
all works? If not, that's all right, too. Yeah.
I would just say, just off the top of my head,
Kyla, that you feel, I think, the energy in this
partnership that we have. And also just how important
it is for how the congregation is nourishing
Rob and his leadership ministry here. And the
possibilities and the energy, the communication
that you're already doing, it's setting a benchmark
for the diocese. I know that may sound sort of...
saccharine or easy to very grand right but i
want you to know that from my perspective having
opportunity to be here and there and around and
about um that this is this is the diocese saying
there's something important happening here and
and we want you to know that we're with you yeah
yeah and i think that's that's important for
sure yeah for sure yeah yeah thanks yeah Well,
thank you both so much. This has been a really
good conversation. Yeah. And thank you for tuning
in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I
hope that you are also able to find some conversational
partners for yourself to help you as you walk
through your spiritual journey. And if you are
part of our community here at Trinity, I want
to just encourage you to continue praying for
Rob and for Beth and figuring out, yeah, what
is God leading us as a community towards? And
we will see you again next week.