Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and this week
we're going to dive into a topic that I think
is really important for people in general to
talk about, but also for people of faith, I think.
We're going to talk about the connections between
faith and mental health and how we as followers
of Jesus, we as a church, can sort of support
one another and support those in our midst who
are struggling with their mental health. And
I am really excited to be sitting down here with
Iris. So thank you for joining me today. It's
lovely to be here. So Iris, do you want to start
by just introducing yourself a little bit? Okay,
so I'm a psychotherapist, and it's a second career
for me, and I have felt very blessed because
I've had two wonderful careers. I was in education
before and retired from that in the end of 98,
and then went back and got a Master's of Divinity
in Counseling at Tyndall. and started a practice
in 2002 and have been doing that as a private
practice ever since. Okay. And continue to. Yeah.
Okay. Very cool. Yeah. So when we talk about
health, there's lots of different sort of spheres
of this. A lot of people will think about physical
health or mental health, but then there's also
sort of emotional and spiritual health. So like,
how do you see all of these different realms
intersecting with one another? Well, they certainly
do intersect because we are organic and they
all join together. I put together a little bit
of a schematic that I thought would help people
to understand. So we have one big circle that
says spiritual. But within each of those, we
have emotional, mental and physical. And those
are sort of like a Venn diagram that all intersect
and overlap with one another. But spiritual sort
of encompasses all of it. Yeah. And a diagram
is like it's quite simple and doesn't capture
everything, but it was sort of the best I could
do. Yeah. And because so emotional, as I put
up there, is about the feelings. And oftentimes
when we're talking about mental health, we are
really talking about emotional health, because
mental health is actually your cognitive and
the way we think and process in a thinking way.
And then the physical, obviously we know what
the physical is, but they do, one very much impacts
the other. Sure. And you can't, if you've got
a physical issue. you've got thoughts about it
and you've also got feelings about it. And likewise,
if you're dealing with something emotionally,
it impacts you physically and so on. We're much
more aware of the physical aspect of ourselves,
I think, than the other two. And the emotions
is probably the one that we know the least about
and are the most frightened by. Sure. Yes. And
the spiritual, to me, over... It surrounds them
all, and very much it can be the answer, but
also puts everything in perspective and holds
them all together. So that's where the faith
and Christianity come in. But to access that,
we have to be able to work through the other
issues. Sure. Yeah, so there's this sense that
the spiritual health is... All -encompassing,
sort of as you said, but it doesn't stand alone.
For sure. Yeah. I think it helps a little bit
maybe if we thought about how we measure some
of these things. Sure. So, for example, if we
thought of physical health, we measure that by
how strong you are and how flexible you are and
how you can endure. And there are tests to do
that. If we think of cognitive, we think in terms
of... of IQ tests or our thinking or our memory.
As I get older, that becomes more of a real thing
that you think about, like your mental clarity
is what we aim for there. And there are tests
to do that. When we think of spiritual, I guess
we think of trust. and obedience and how trusting
and obedient we are to the lord and with emotional
it can be a little bit more vague and if you
ask people what emotional health looks like Like
if I were to ask you, Kyla, I'm much more used
to asking questions than I am answering them.
Sure, sure. So if I start to answer your questions
with, and what do you think? You'll know I've
reverted to a therapist. Yes, that's all right.
But if I asked you, how would you measure emotional
health? How would you answer that? Yeah, that
feels hard. I mean, I would almost start by saying,
What it is that I'm experiencing. I'm experiencing
happiness or sadness or anger or whatever. But
that's not even a measure of emotional health.
That's just emotions. Identification. Yeah, I
don't know. So is there a measurement? Yes. Okay.
Well, in a way, there's a measurement. So if
I were a psychiatrist, I would use what is called
the... I wrote this down because I always get
the initials wrong. It's DSM, and I think they're
in the fifth edition. So it's a book that identifies
all the different mental health issues. Right.
But for myself as a psychotherapist, We don't
diagnose. And for people in general, I think
it's more, I think of a continuum. Okay. So if
you took any mental or emotional health issue,
say anxiety, and you thought in terms of zero
to 10, all of us would fit somewhere on that.
But there's a line. And the DSM would identify
that. If you are over that line, then they would
diagnose you as having an anxiety disorder. Right.
Yeah. For me, the best definition that I come
up with for emotional health is expressing the
appropriate emotion at the appropriate level
for the given situation. Okay. Okay? Yeah. So
sometimes when I hear people saying, say, you
often hear this at a funeral, where wasn't she
strong? And what that really meant. What's that
mean? If somebody says, wasn't she strong? What's
that usually mean? Well, usually it means they
held themselves together. They weren't overly
emotional and grief stricken and those things.
Yeah. Well, I would question whether that was
strong or not. Sure. Yeah. Now, it might be because
that person may be. showing the emotions in a
different way, in a different forum. But just
because they didn't cry or they didn't fall apart,
literally, if it's a loved one, doesn't mean
that they're being strong. It could be that they're
pushing down their emotions. Right. And pushing
down emotions, it's like a garbage can. At some
point it gets full. And it usually comes out
in very inappropriate ways. Sure. And that's
where you have... like anger, for example, being
shown much bigger than the given situation would
seem to warrant. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So
I'm interested, I think specifically in how the
spiritual health aspect fits into all of this.
And it's interesting to me, you said you did
a master's of divinity in counseling. Yeah. And
so I would imagine that there was a lot of sort
of thought put into how our spiritual health
connects with. our emotional health and that
sort of thing. So yeah. How do you see those
two things? Are they at odds with one another?
How do they integrate well? They're totally not
at odds with one another. They can be if used
incorrectly, I believe, but they're not at odds.
You know, I'm reminded of the 12 step program
where they have this slogan that says that we
have an emotional problem with a physical manifestation.
and a spiritual cure. Okay. And so I think that
sometimes they, and when I was thinking about
that, I thought they should probably say with
a physical and thinking, but they cover that
because they talk about stinking thinking. Sure.
Yeah, quite a bit. Yeah. So basically, but they
are right that it's an emotional issue that like
I see addictions of any kind as a symptom. of
an emotional issue and an escape from something
sort of thing. But the spiritual cure is absolutely
right on because the answer is in our faith.
And so it has so much that we can use. And even
psychotherapists or psychologists who are not...
are not Christians or have a faith or spirituality
that they would talk about, recognize a lot of
what Christianity offers as healing, like thinking
positively and think about... Philippians 4,
8, I believe where it is, about thinking those
things that are lovely and true and so on. Well,
isn't that what we're supposed to do when we
get down? And forgiveness. which is very much
a part of the Christian belief, that's known
to be necessary before total healing can take
place between relationships. So it has all the
answers. The problem is that one has to work
through the emotional aspects to get to that.
Otherwise, it just becomes cliches. And sometimes
even harmful. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think
that sort of reminds me then of like how these
things about our faith, you know, sometimes when
someone is struggling with something, we'll tell
them, we'll just pray about it. We'll just trust
God with that thing. And there is some truth
in that, right? That there is, you know, coming
to God and in faith is helpful. But like you
said, it needs to be paired with that. that emotional
healing and well -being as well, I think. Yeah,
and like, absolutely. And we know that, and the
answer is in that. But I can't hear that. There's
no way I can hear that if I'm struggling with
something emotionally or some circumstance in
my life. I can't hear that. It just sounds like
you want to be rid of me. Right. And which, by
the way, is a huge issue because one of the hardest
things that we as humans seem to have to do is
to sit with pain. With our own pain and with
other people's pain. We want to run away from
it. We're very uncomfortable with it. And one
of the hardest things when I say to my clients,
I want you to sit with that pain, even for two
minutes. And it seems very hard. Yeah. Yeah.
Very, very hard. Even though they're there to
work on the stuff, they still just sitting with
your pain. We want to run away from it. We want
to make ourselves a cup of tea. We want to go
for a walk. We want to do anything, but just
literally sit with that pain. Yeah. Yeah. That's
hard. And then even harder to sit with somebody
else's. Of course. Yeah. For sure. If we say,
oh, I'll pray for you or like, you know, just
trust in the Lord, the person who's struggling
just hears that. You want to get away from me.
Right. Because really, that's what it is. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Because we're all struggling with
that. Yeah. Yeah. So in faith communities, there's
this that we were just sort of talking about.
But are there other sort of common misconceptions
or challenges that you think people in faith
communities have towards mental health challenges?
Yeah, it's interesting. I had thought that we
were far beyond this, but then I was talking
to a colleague, another therapist the other day,
and it came up that this still happens, and I
thought how awful this is. Because I believe
there are Christians and churches that even think
that something like depression or anxiety or
any of the OCD or any of the difficulties that
people have are sinful. Or a lack of willpower.
Right. And you're just being weak. And that is
so, it really makes me sad to think that that
is still out there. And yet it is. And so I think
we have to bar against that. So the answer is
in our faith. I mean, we've got everything in
the faith. We've got the community. We've got
all the things that can support. But if we think
of emotional issues, we wouldn't think of physical
issues as sinful. Or mental, like cognitive,
you don't think somebody's sinful just because
they aren't as smart as you. However, we can
go there and that they're not strong and not
being strong enough if they have an anxiety or
a fear or depression. Right, yeah. Yeah, I think
that's a really big thing. And I think even...
I think there's nuances to that, right? So there
would be some people who might say, you know,
these mental illnesses are sinful in and of themselves,
but there's other people who maybe they wouldn't
say it in those words, but they would say, well,
you just need more faith, right? Or, well, if
you just trust God, if you just keep praying,
God will cure you of this mental illness. And
there's truth in that. Sure. There's truth in
that because we do need more faith. I don't know
if we need more faith. We need more trust and
more obedience. But that doesn't cure the emotional
issue. It's the same as if I break a leg, like
I have to go to the doctor and get it set and
so on and so forth. And we know that. I mean,
God could zap his finger and do it, but he doesn't
as a rule. So with emotions, it's the same thing.
We have to work through them. And there's many
things and it's just like, you know, I broke
my arm last year and it's healed, it's functional,
it's wonderful, but it's not like it was before.
And so when we have emotional issues that happen
to us, and we all do from birth on, like you
mend to a degree, but they're still there. And
so you still continue to work through those.
And our faith can be very helpful in working
through those. But we still need to recognize
that we have responses that are just part of
who we are. And the more worn down we are in
one way or another, the more those responses
will come out. Sure, yeah. In other words, coping
mechanisms that aren't very helpful. Sure, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I appreciate the sort of
line that we're trying to walk here where we're
saying, You know, that there is something really
valuable in faith, and faith is not the magic
cure -all, right? That there's something, faith
provides us with positive coping mechanisms,
but it's not just have more faith and you'll
be fine. Exactly. Because along with that faith,
you have to, just like you have to let your leg
heal, there has to be healing. in your emotions.
And recognizing that emotions, we don't get over
them. And we don't get over the impact that our
childhood, every... therapists that you work
with will always take you back to childhood and
there's a reason for that because we we set up
patterns and ways of thinking when we're children
that we continue to act out as adults even though
they're no longer necessary and or helpful yeah
but it's just so in part of our dna that we just
do it yeah and so so that's uh and that is part
of us and no matter how old we are yeah and that
will pop up yes For sure. For sure. So as we're
thinking about that, I think for some folks,
whether it's in childhood or later, the church
is sometimes a place that causes some challenges,
causes some harm. And so, yeah, what are some
ways that you think the churches can work to
reduce harm, but also to promote a sense of healing
for those who have been hurt by? or by faith.
Yeah. I think a church at its best is family.
Yep. And just like our biggest hurts and joys
can come from our family of origin and also it
can come from the church. And it's because it's
so important that those hurts are real. And so
that you can get hurt by people and relationships
because... We're all people here just like we
are out there. We can hurt each other and love
each other. But the church has so many things.
First of all, it is a community. Having a mental
health issue can be... I'm going to try and change
that to an emotional health issue. I may go on
a campaign. It can cause people... One of the
first things people want to do... especially
if it's depression, is they want to isolate.
And because they don't like being around themselves,
so they find it really difficult to think that
anybody else would want to be around them. Sure.
So church can really be the community of that
person. And I would encourage anyone struggling
to reach out, but also sometimes the church needs
to reach out to them. because they can't sometimes.
And so any way that the church can reach out
to people and be available. Another huge thing
I think that the church can do is to start to
recognize within each individual, encourage the
idea that it's important to know our own issues.
A number of years ago, If I'm off on a tangent
here, I know you'll bring me back. So a number
of years ago, I started working with Hospice
Peel. It's a wonderful organization. And I used
to do some training of their volunteers, their
bereavement volunteers. And one of the things
that I came up with was these are people, most
people that volunteer there, obviously, have
been people that go through bereavement themselves.
And one of the things that I realized that...
People have to be at a certain level before they
can help others. And I came up with this thing
about know yourself, accept yourself, forget
yourself. And you really can't be helping other
people if you're still so busy, busy knowing
yourself. Now, trust me, this is circular because
the more we forget ourselves, the more we learn
about ourselves. But in the moment that we're
helping people, we need to be the small circle.
So in order to be the small circle, we have to
work through some of our own stuff too. Sure.
And so it's the know yourself by figuring out
your own emotional levels and accepting yourself
that that's just who I am and that's okay. It's
okay. And then be able to forget yourself when
you're working with other people. Like as a therapist
in the room, if I'm not being the small circle,
I'm not being a very good therapist. Right. And
I can't be the small circle. if I'm busy thinking
about my own stuff and working through my own
stuff. Sure. Yeah. And it's not that it doesn't
come up, but you're able to set it aside. Right.
But then be honest to yourself and honoring of
yourself by working through that stuff on your
own. Right. Or with other people. Sure. Yeah.
Sure. But just not in that moment. Owning it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really
interesting and really important to think about
as we think about Christian leadership in particular,
as we think about pastors or deacons or whoever
it is that is leading and caring for other people,
it does require some deep work on yourself to
be able to do that well. Absolutely. May I just
mention, because I just glanced down at my notes
here, a couple other things that when you mentioned
about what the church... One of the things that
happens, especially with people who are depressed
or going through difficult times, is to remain
hopeful. And the church can provide that, but
in a loving, like not in a platitude type way,
but in a very loving way of walking beside people.
And sometimes when people are really down, you
have to hold the hope that they don't have. And
our Christian belief. It's all about, like, the
hope. It doesn't matter how bad of a mess the
world is in. Like, we know who wins here. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Like, we know. And so that hope,
if we can carry that, and, you know, something
I guess I'd throw in here is that people don't
know, they don't care how much you know until
they know how much you care. And I know that's
an old saying, but it's really true. But if you
really, if they know, I can get away with my
clients with things and say things to them and
push them quite a bit because they know I care.
Right. Yeah. But if you tried that before they
know that, it won't work. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
Yeah. So it also then requires building a bit
of trust, which I think then requires you to
be in it for the long haul. For sure. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is something that I think
a local church and its members can do quite well,
right? Because the individuals in a church, you
know, maybe come and go, but the church itself
stays and is fairly permanent. And hopefully
the people who are leading that church can make
a commitment to... being there to walking with
people through a season, through many seasons,
hopefully. And I don't think it's only the leadership.
I think that it's something that each individual,
like the congregation in general, can participate
in that and needs to participate in that because
you leaders can't do it all. Sure, yeah, yeah,
yeah, sure. And I think another piece of that
is to know. when the person needs professional
help too. Sure. Yeah, because I think that, and
yeah, because like we can't do it all within
the church. We are just there, I think, to support
and encourage. But encouraging, part of the encouragement
is encouraging people to get professional help
when they need it. Sure. You wouldn't let somebody
walk in here with a broken leg and not tell them
to go to a doctor. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. So
I think that's, a tricky thing for pastors and
church leaders and people to sort of figure out
is what, what is mine to do and what needs to
be sort of referred elsewhere. So like, what,
what would you sort of say into that space? If
there's someone, a church leader trying to figure
out, okay, I have this, this person before me,
how do I know what's mine to care for and what
I need to refer to a professional? Yeah. I, I,
I think that, that, It has to do, if you think
in terms of what we started off here with, with
the, like, is there an emotional issue here?
Like if this person comes in, like you as leaders
of a church, you're spiritual, you're spiritual
leaders. And that's really important. It's not
emotional leaders. Right. So if somebody comes
to you with an emotional issue. Right. Then to
me, that's, that's not in the, you're not. qualified
sure sure yes yeah and and uh yeah so so it's
the it's the idea of being able to discern and
it's not always easy to discern sure because
it may appear like a spiritual issue that really
is an emotional issue sure and uh but uh and
But I think it's important to just, and the severity
of it, because we all have emotional issues.
You remember that continuum? Right. We all have
anxiety. We all have depression. It's just where
we are in the continuum. Sure. And so it's a
judgment call, of course. Yep. But if you think
of it, I relate it back to the physical. It's
like... if somebody is really looking physically
sick or they've got, you would recommend they
go to a doctor, would you not? Sure. Yes. Yeah.
So I think you'd trust your discernment in that
and try, but, and recognizing that you don't
have to be all things to all people. Sure. Like
if somebody starts talking to me about legal
things, I'm not going to, that would be very
wrong for me to talk to them or to suggest or
business things. I'm not an expert. That's not
my expertise. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
I think, As you were talking there, I was sort
of reflecting on my own journey with spiritual
and emotional health and just thinking there
are moments and there have been moments in my
life where therapists have been super helpful
in helping me figure out emotional challenges
in my life. And at the same time, I still needed
and wanted spiritual support and leaders, right?
It's not like we refer someone to a mental health
professional and then we... Abandon them to that.
Of course not. No, no. It's not one or the other.
It's both. But it's just recognizing who needs
to take charge of what part of it. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you talked about this,
the importance of this work of knowing your own
stuff so that you can sort of know yourself and
then move towards the forgetting of yourself
so you can care for other people. So how do we
do that? Are there sort of certain tools or resources
that you might recommend to help someone start
to do some of that work of knowing themselves?
Yeah, I think one of the first things, as far
as I'm concerned, is to... to start to understand
your emotions a little bit. And it's sometimes
just to check in. Like we're feeling all the
time. So sometimes it's just an idea to say,
okay, how am I feeling right now? And I tell
my clients that there's really four basic emotions,
sad, mad, glad, and afraid. And then under that,
there's a whole bunch of vocabulary that is very
helpful to learn. Like there's a huge difference
between... melancholy and despair sure uh there's
a huge difference between annoyed and rage yes
uh but they all come under anger they all come
under yeah so it's it's getting to uh like i
tell my clients like acknowledge acknowledge
the feeling yeah and and um and affirm it and
by affirming it i just mean it's okay right so
it's like no matter we're afraid to feel some
feelings Because we go to the expression, but
a feeling by itself is a messenger. It's just
telling us something. Sure. And we don't want
to listen to it. Yeah. And so like if you just
say, okay, I'm feeling sad right now. Right.
And the next thing you recognize you're sad,
then it's okay that I'm sad. Right. And then
you might want to do some investigating about,
I wonder what that's about. What's the message
right now? But sadness is an important feeling.
Sure. We don't want to chase it away. Because
sadness is always about loss. It's always about
loss. And once you allow yourself to grieve and
mourn whatever the loss is, it's inviting you
to let go of something so you can grab onto something
else. Sure. But if you don't go through the process
of feeling the loss, then you can't get to the
other. Yeah. Anger has such a terrible reputation,
especially among women. Yes. Anger has such a
bad reputation. But anger is so important because
it's the motivator. Right. If people hadn't got
angry, you and I wouldn't vote. Right. Yeah,
yeah. So it's a motivator. However, if it gets
out of place, then it becomes very destructive.
Sure. But anger on itself is very motivating.
It sets a boundary. has been crossed here or
violated. A value has been violated. And I need
to do something to put in a boundary to put that
back in place. So anger is important. All emotions
are important. And if we see them that way. So
that's the first thing, is just to be able to
be aware of how you're feeling. Because most
people don't want to do that. Sure. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, for sure. And seen as weak. Yeah, yeah,
for sure. So if there are folks who are listening
who are people of faith, Christians, who find
themselves struggling with their emotional health,
are there resources or next steps that you might
offer to them? The first would be to admit that
they are. The second would be to reach out for
help. Because I said before about people want
to isolate, and it's important for them to reach
out. And so to reach out and to be open about
things and being willing. I know it's going to
take time, but being willing just to be vulnerable
with people. The other part of it is, I'm not
talking here about people like... falling apart
all the time, all over. One has to discern the
appropriate time with the appropriate people.
Sure. I think there are two extremes. People
that they're like a vault. They never admit any
emotions. And then people that are emoting, well,
neither one of those are healthy emotional places.
Right. So it's... being willing to get help to
see that, but also to take some direction and,
and be open to that. Cause I don't, I think we
need to, to be free to direct people in certain
ways, but yeah, seek help and, and reach out.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And for, what about for folks
who are knowing someone who's struggling with,
with their emotional health? You know, what,
would be sort of helpful steps for them to take.
Yeah. Yeah, again, you know, it's that, first
of all, if it's somebody that is close to you
that you are, be patient, which is hard sometimes.
Totally. And be willing to sit with their pain.
Yeah. And, you know, I mentioned that before,
and I can't emphasize that enough, is that, and
it's uncomfortable and so on, but to be willing
to sit with their pain. Yep. And also to suggest
to them that they get help. Right. Yeah. And
not to allow yourself to be drawn into it because
you don't want to go down the drain with them.
Sure. So you have to watch your own boundaries
around stuff like that too. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
I think that can be especially hard. I know it's
hard for... christian leaders caring for other
people but i think it's also it's even harder
and more complicated when you're talking about
family and friends right because it's it's this
person you know maybe it's your partner it's
your whole world it's your kid it's right but
how to to figure out okay what does it look like
to sit with them in their pain and to take care
of yourself at the same time. I think Jesus gave
us a really good model of that. I must admit
I'm a bit of a fan of the series The Chosen because
I think it has shown Christ in such a human way
as well as a godly. And like the way that, but
in the scriptures it's very, very clear. That,
I mean, he was with people. He was passionate
and being with them. But he took time to be with
his father and taking care of himself. Right.
And to go off and pray. Yeah. And even though
they thought they should go one direction, he
was quite willing to go another direction because
the Lord had led him in that way. I think we
need to do that, too. It's like we're not going
to be, it's that whole put your mask on, your
own mask on first sort of thing. Right. Because,
yeah, you need to. care for people but at the
same time you can't care for them if you're not
caring for yourself right and keeping your own
self in proper physical emotional and mental
health and spiritual health yeah yeah yeah yeah
for sure and i think that feels really hard to
do sometimes but still really important One of
the things I just, I love continuums. I think
my clients get very tired of me talking about
continuums, but I love continuums. My husband
said I got to stop it when I asked him to do
a continuum between peanut butter and almond
butter, but I can be a bit extreme. Anyway, point
being that if you know yourself, I think there
are two extremes. One is that you are so clinical.
and that you appear cold and uncaring. So you're
way over here. And the other one is that you're
so compassionate and empathetic and so on that
you just burn out and so on. And so neither one
of those extremes is healthy. It's helpful, first
of all, to know which side you fall on, like
which end are you closest to, because then that
helps you. to know which way you have to move.
Sure. I have a wide idea. I always say between
3 and 7 is normal, natural, and to be expected.
But if you find yourself out at an 8 or a 9 in
one end or a 1 and 2 at the other, then you need
to move in. Sure. So then knowing where you are,
then that tells you, do I have to be more clinical
in this situation and protect myself, or do I
need to be warmer? more caring yeah yeah and
as someone who in situations where i'm providing
care to another person i think my natural instinct
is towards compassion and so to hear maybe sometimes
i need to be a little more clinical is challenging
and it sometimes it feels like well no that's
not Jesus was all about compassion and those
sort of things. He was also taking care of himself.
He was also taking care of himself. Yeah. Yeah.
And so to bring those things together, I think
is really important. Yeah. The other thing I
think that's important is to be able to recognize
that it's their issue. Right. And by the way,
that's a very caring, loving thing to leave it
with them because we can get so involved. That
we get to be the big circle and it becomes about
us. Right. And so it's like to be compassionate
and empathetic with the person, but leave it
with them. It's theirs. Honor them. Give them
the idea that they can do this. Right. Because
with God's help, they can. Right. Yeah. Sort
of honoring their whole personhood. Exactly.
Right? That this is someone who, yeah, has all
of these complex issues, but they're not incapable.
in the grand scheme of things, of coming through
that, right? With the right support, with, you
know, the help of other people, with the help
of God. But yeah, I don't need to take it from
them. No. So sobering as it is, we can recognize
that. So say I see a client for an hour for a
week. They're spending 23 hours every day for
seven days without me. So, I mean, they're doing
something. So just recognizing that we can help,
but we don't have to at all. Yeah, sure. That's
really helpful, I think. Yeah. Was there anything
else that you wanted to sort of touch on as we
think about this idea of faith and emotional
health and how? These all intersect with one
another. No, I think you've given me a really
good opportunity with your questions, Kyla, to
say what I said. I think my biggest message,
and I don't know if it's come across, but my
biggest message would be to recognize that we
all have emotional issues. Sure. And I think
that by recognizing that, it helps us put less
stigma on people. that theirs have maybe gone
to the point where they're causing a little bit
of dysfunction. But recognizing that there's
probably about this far between them being dysfunctional
and where I'm at at this moment sort of thing.
So it normalizes it a bit. And I think the more
we recognize that, then the less frightened we
are of it and the more we're willing to enter
into it. You're not going to disappear because
you sit with pain. For five minutes. Yeah, for
sure. Yeah, that hope that there's something
normal about having emotional health challenges,
about dealing with all of these things. And that,
you know, faith offers us fertile ground for
coping with that. Absolutely. Yeah. In the end.
It's the best coping mechanism in the world,
but we have to get there by going through the
emotions. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so
much, Iris. My pleasure. And thank you for tuning
in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. Whether
you are finding yourself in the midst of some
mental and emotional health challenges or whether
you are simply caring for others who are going
through those things, I pray that you are able
to find the path forward. through knowing yourself,
through trusting God and through seeking support
from those around you. And we will see you again
next week.