WEBVTT 00:00:03.769 --> 00:00:06.150 Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode 00:00:06.150 --> 00:00:09.710 of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and this week 00:00:09.710 --> 00:00:12.650 we're going to dive into a topic that I think 00:00:12.650 --> 00:00:15.509 is really important for people in general to 00:00:15.509 --> 00:00:17.890 talk about, but also for people of faith, I think. 00:00:18.170 --> 00:00:20.289 We're going to talk about the connections between 00:00:20.289 --> 00:00:24.329 faith and mental health and how we as followers 00:00:24.329 --> 00:00:27.489 of Jesus, we as a church, can sort of support 00:00:27.489 --> 00:00:30.190 one another and support those in our midst who 00:00:30.190 --> 00:00:32.490 are struggling with their mental health. And 00:00:32.490 --> 00:00:34.570 I am really excited to be sitting down here with 00:00:34.570 --> 00:00:37.590 Iris. So thank you for joining me today. It's 00:00:37.590 --> 00:00:40.009 lovely to be here. So Iris, do you want to start 00:00:40.009 --> 00:00:43.210 by just introducing yourself a little bit? Okay, 00:00:43.210 --> 00:00:48.310 so I'm a psychotherapist, and it's a second career 00:00:48.310 --> 00:00:51.710 for me, and I have felt very blessed because 00:00:51.710 --> 00:00:54.509 I've had two wonderful careers. I was in education 00:00:54.509 --> 00:00:59.390 before and retired from that in the end of 98, 00:00:59.649 --> 00:01:03.950 and then went back and got a Master's of Divinity 00:01:03.950 --> 00:01:08.079 in Counseling at Tyndall. and started a practice 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:12.219 in 2002 and have been doing that as a private 00:01:12.219 --> 00:01:15.439 practice ever since. Okay. And continue to. Yeah. 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:19.620 Okay. Very cool. Yeah. So when we talk about 00:01:19.620 --> 00:01:22.859 health, there's lots of different sort of spheres 00:01:22.859 --> 00:01:24.920 of this. A lot of people will think about physical 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:27.500 health or mental health, but then there's also 00:01:27.500 --> 00:01:30.019 sort of emotional and spiritual health. So like, 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:32.200 how do you see all of these different realms 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:36.739 intersecting with one another? Well, they certainly 00:01:36.739 --> 00:01:39.939 do intersect because we are organic and they 00:01:39.939 --> 00:01:43.819 all join together. I put together a little bit 00:01:43.819 --> 00:01:45.980 of a schematic that I thought would help people 00:01:45.980 --> 00:01:49.579 to understand. So we have one big circle that 00:01:49.579 --> 00:01:52.760 says spiritual. But within each of those, we 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:55.739 have emotional, mental and physical. And those 00:01:55.739 --> 00:01:58.519 are sort of like a Venn diagram that all intersect 00:01:58.519 --> 00:02:01.079 and overlap with one another. But spiritual sort 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:04.140 of encompasses all of it. Yeah. And a diagram 00:02:04.140 --> 00:02:07.519 is like it's quite simple and doesn't capture 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:09.379 everything, but it was sort of the best I could 00:02:09.379 --> 00:02:13.539 do. Yeah. And because so emotional, as I put 00:02:13.539 --> 00:02:16.759 up there, is about the feelings. And oftentimes 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:19.860 when we're talking about mental health, we are 00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:22.860 really talking about emotional health, because 00:02:22.860 --> 00:02:26.439 mental health is actually your cognitive and 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:29.419 the way we think and process in a thinking way. 00:02:29.819 --> 00:02:33.300 And then the physical, obviously we know what 00:02:33.300 --> 00:02:36.919 the physical is, but they do, one very much impacts 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:40.379 the other. Sure. And you can't, if you've got 00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:43.000 a physical issue. you've got thoughts about it 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.000 and you've also got feelings about it. And likewise, 00:02:45.139 --> 00:02:46.719 if you're dealing with something emotionally, 00:02:47.659 --> 00:02:52.159 it impacts you physically and so on. We're much 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:55.819 more aware of the physical aspect of ourselves, 00:02:56.080 --> 00:03:00.500 I think, than the other two. And the emotions 00:03:00.500 --> 00:03:02.860 is probably the one that we know the least about 00:03:02.860 --> 00:03:08.219 and are the most frightened by. Sure. Yes. And 00:03:08.219 --> 00:03:12.620 the spiritual, to me, over... It surrounds them 00:03:12.620 --> 00:03:19.680 all, and very much it can be the answer, but 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:21.719 also puts everything in perspective and holds 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:25.780 them all together. So that's where the faith 00:03:25.780 --> 00:03:29.280 and Christianity come in. But to access that, 00:03:29.500 --> 00:03:32.900 we have to be able to work through the other 00:03:32.900 --> 00:03:37.560 issues. Sure. Yeah, so there's this sense that 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:42.319 the spiritual health is... All -encompassing, 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.080 sort of as you said, but it doesn't stand alone. 00:03:45.659 --> 00:03:49.060 For sure. Yeah. I think it helps a little bit 00:03:49.060 --> 00:03:51.460 maybe if we thought about how we measure some 00:03:51.460 --> 00:03:54.080 of these things. Sure. So, for example, if we 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:57.979 thought of physical health, we measure that by 00:03:57.979 --> 00:04:01.120 how strong you are and how flexible you are and 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:03.379 how you can endure. And there are tests to do 00:04:03.379 --> 00:04:07.620 that. If we think of cognitive, we think in terms 00:04:07.620 --> 00:04:13.409 of... of IQ tests or our thinking or our memory. 00:04:13.710 --> 00:04:18.389 As I get older, that becomes more of a real thing 00:04:18.389 --> 00:04:20.470 that you think about, like your mental clarity 00:04:20.470 --> 00:04:23.389 is what we aim for there. And there are tests 00:04:23.389 --> 00:04:27.170 to do that. When we think of spiritual, I guess 00:04:27.170 --> 00:04:30.420 we think of trust. and obedience and how trusting 00:04:30.420 --> 00:04:34.180 and obedient we are to the lord and with emotional 00:04:34.180 --> 00:04:38.139 it can be a little bit more vague and if you 00:04:38.139 --> 00:04:42.180 ask people what emotional health looks like Like 00:04:42.180 --> 00:04:44.579 if I were to ask you, Kyla, I'm much more used 00:04:44.579 --> 00:04:46.939 to asking questions than I am answering them. 00:04:47.060 --> 00:04:50.040 Sure, sure. So if I start to answer your questions 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:53.459 with, and what do you think? You'll know I've 00:04:53.459 --> 00:04:55.759 reverted to a therapist. Yes, that's all right. 00:04:56.439 --> 00:05:01.040 But if I asked you, how would you measure emotional 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:03.980 health? How would you answer that? Yeah, that 00:05:03.980 --> 00:05:10.360 feels hard. I mean, I would almost start by saying, 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.379 What it is that I'm experiencing. I'm experiencing 00:05:14.379 --> 00:05:18.120 happiness or sadness or anger or whatever. But 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.240 that's not even a measure of emotional health. 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:23.079 That's just emotions. Identification. Yeah, I 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:26.750 don't know. So is there a measurement? Yes. Okay. 00:05:27.509 --> 00:05:31.370 Well, in a way, there's a measurement. So if 00:05:31.370 --> 00:05:36.269 I were a psychiatrist, I would use what is called 00:05:36.269 --> 00:05:38.449 the... I wrote this down because I always get 00:05:38.449 --> 00:05:42.189 the initials wrong. It's DSM, and I think they're 00:05:42.189 --> 00:05:45.350 in the fifth edition. So it's a book that identifies 00:05:45.350 --> 00:05:51.269 all the different mental health issues. Right. 00:05:51.310 --> 00:05:56.000 But for myself as a psychotherapist, We don't 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:59.399 diagnose. And for people in general, I think 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:02.860 it's more, I think of a continuum. Okay. So if 00:06:02.860 --> 00:06:07.399 you took any mental or emotional health issue, 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:10.899 say anxiety, and you thought in terms of zero 00:06:10.899 --> 00:06:14.160 to 10, all of us would fit somewhere on that. 00:06:14.980 --> 00:06:19.029 But there's a line. And the DSM would identify 00:06:19.029 --> 00:06:21.990 that. If you are over that line, then they would 00:06:21.990 --> 00:06:26.389 diagnose you as having an anxiety disorder. Right. 00:06:26.569 --> 00:06:30.410 Yeah. For me, the best definition that I come 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:34.329 up with for emotional health is expressing the 00:06:34.329 --> 00:06:38.550 appropriate emotion at the appropriate level 00:06:38.550 --> 00:06:42.970 for the given situation. Okay. Okay? Yeah. So 00:06:42.970 --> 00:06:46.569 sometimes when I hear people saying, say, you 00:06:46.569 --> 00:06:49.470 often hear this at a funeral, where wasn't she 00:06:49.470 --> 00:06:52.269 strong? And what that really meant. What's that 00:06:52.269 --> 00:06:54.129 mean? If somebody says, wasn't she strong? What's 00:06:54.129 --> 00:06:55.490 that usually mean? Well, usually it means they 00:06:55.490 --> 00:06:57.889 held themselves together. They weren't overly 00:06:57.889 --> 00:07:01.029 emotional and grief stricken and those things. 00:07:01.050 --> 00:07:02.970 Yeah. Well, I would question whether that was 00:07:02.970 --> 00:07:05.589 strong or not. Sure. Yeah. Now, it might be because 00:07:05.589 --> 00:07:10.360 that person may be. showing the emotions in a 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:12.740 different way, in a different forum. But just 00:07:12.740 --> 00:07:15.779 because they didn't cry or they didn't fall apart, 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:18.980 literally, if it's a loved one, doesn't mean 00:07:18.980 --> 00:07:21.480 that they're being strong. It could be that they're 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.879 pushing down their emotions. Right. And pushing 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.500 down emotions, it's like a garbage can. At some 00:07:27.500 --> 00:07:30.000 point it gets full. And it usually comes out 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:32.959 in very inappropriate ways. Sure. And that's 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:37.240 where you have... like anger, for example, being 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:41.300 shown much bigger than the given situation would 00:07:41.300 --> 00:07:45.600 seem to warrant. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:49.339 I'm interested, I think specifically in how the 00:07:49.339 --> 00:07:51.839 spiritual health aspect fits into all of this. 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:53.279 And it's interesting to me, you said you did 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:56.699 a master's of divinity in counseling. Yeah. And 00:07:56.699 --> 00:07:59.180 so I would imagine that there was a lot of sort 00:07:59.180 --> 00:08:02.139 of thought put into how our spiritual health 00:08:02.139 --> 00:08:05.139 connects with. our emotional health and that 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:07.220 sort of thing. So yeah. How do you see those 00:08:07.220 --> 00:08:09.839 two things? Are they at odds with one another? 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:12.759 How do they integrate well? They're totally not 00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:15.600 at odds with one another. They can be if used 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:17.740 incorrectly, I believe, but they're not at odds. 00:08:18.100 --> 00:08:22.259 You know, I'm reminded of the 12 step program 00:08:22.259 --> 00:08:26.759 where they have this slogan that says that we 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:30.540 have an emotional problem with a physical manifestation. 00:08:31.899 --> 00:08:37.000 and a spiritual cure. Okay. And so I think that 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.620 sometimes they, and when I was thinking about 00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:43.399 that, I thought they should probably say with 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:45.940 a physical and thinking, but they cover that 00:08:45.940 --> 00:08:48.259 because they talk about stinking thinking. Sure. 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:53.179 Yeah, quite a bit. Yeah. So basically, but they 00:08:53.179 --> 00:08:57.059 are right that it's an emotional issue that like 00:08:57.059 --> 00:09:02.059 I see addictions of any kind as a symptom. of 00:09:02.059 --> 00:09:05.340 an emotional issue and an escape from something 00:09:05.340 --> 00:09:09.980 sort of thing. But the spiritual cure is absolutely 00:09:09.980 --> 00:09:16.080 right on because the answer is in our faith. 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:20.940 And so it has so much that we can use. And even 00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:26.500 psychotherapists or psychologists who are not... 00:09:26.830 --> 00:09:30.250 are not Christians or have a faith or spirituality 00:09:30.250 --> 00:09:34.649 that they would talk about, recognize a lot of 00:09:34.649 --> 00:09:39.610 what Christianity offers as healing, like thinking 00:09:39.610 --> 00:09:44.370 positively and think about... Philippians 4, 00:09:44.450 --> 00:09:46.669 8, I believe where it is, about thinking those 00:09:46.669 --> 00:09:51.289 things that are lovely and true and so on. Well, 00:09:51.470 --> 00:09:54.830 isn't that what we're supposed to do when we 00:09:54.830 --> 00:09:58.950 get down? And forgiveness. which is very much 00:09:58.950 --> 00:10:03.909 a part of the Christian belief, that's known 00:10:03.909 --> 00:10:07.090 to be necessary before total healing can take 00:10:07.090 --> 00:10:10.350 place between relationships. So it has all the 00:10:10.350 --> 00:10:14.129 answers. The problem is that one has to work 00:10:14.129 --> 00:10:16.669 through the emotional aspects to get to that. 00:10:16.950 --> 00:10:23.159 Otherwise, it just becomes cliches. And sometimes 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:27.500 even harmful. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think 00:10:27.500 --> 00:10:33.279 that sort of reminds me then of like how these 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:35.659 things about our faith, you know, sometimes when 00:10:35.659 --> 00:10:37.559 someone is struggling with something, we'll tell 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:39.159 them, we'll just pray about it. We'll just trust 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:41.740 God with that thing. And there is some truth 00:10:41.740 --> 00:10:45.340 in that, right? That there is, you know, coming 00:10:45.340 --> 00:10:49.240 to God and in faith is helpful. But like you 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.600 said, it needs to be paired with that. that emotional 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:55.220 healing and well -being as well, I think. Yeah, 00:10:55.240 --> 00:11:00.379 and like, absolutely. And we know that, and the 00:11:00.379 --> 00:11:03.580 answer is in that. But I can't hear that. There's 00:11:03.580 --> 00:11:07.139 no way I can hear that if I'm struggling with 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:11.440 something emotionally or some circumstance in 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:13.539 my life. I can't hear that. It just sounds like 00:11:13.539 --> 00:11:16.679 you want to be rid of me. Right. And which, by 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:19.460 the way, is a huge issue because one of the hardest 00:11:19.460 --> 00:11:22.259 things that we as humans seem to have to do is 00:11:22.259 --> 00:11:25.490 to sit with pain. With our own pain and with 00:11:25.490 --> 00:11:28.129 other people's pain. We want to run away from 00:11:28.129 --> 00:11:32.190 it. We're very uncomfortable with it. And one 00:11:32.190 --> 00:11:34.750 of the hardest things when I say to my clients, 00:11:34.870 --> 00:11:38.029 I want you to sit with that pain, even for two 00:11:38.029 --> 00:11:42.820 minutes. And it seems very hard. Yeah. Yeah. 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:44.740 Very, very hard. Even though they're there to 00:11:44.740 --> 00:11:47.620 work on the stuff, they still just sitting with 00:11:47.620 --> 00:11:49.200 your pain. We want to run away from it. We want 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:51.159 to make ourselves a cup of tea. We want to go 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:52.940 for a walk. We want to do anything, but just 00:11:52.940 --> 00:11:56.919 literally sit with that pain. Yeah. Yeah. That's 00:11:56.919 --> 00:11:59.220 hard. And then even harder to sit with somebody 00:11:59.220 --> 00:12:02.120 else's. Of course. Yeah. For sure. If we say, 00:12:02.139 --> 00:12:04.399 oh, I'll pray for you or like, you know, just 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:07.659 trust in the Lord, the person who's struggling 00:12:07.659 --> 00:12:10.340 just hears that. You want to get away from me. 00:12:10.460 --> 00:12:12.960 Right. Because really, that's what it is. Yeah, 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:15.440 yeah, yeah. Because we're all struggling with 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:21.480 that. Yeah. Yeah. So in faith communities, there's 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:23.639 this that we were just sort of talking about. 00:12:23.899 --> 00:12:26.299 But are there other sort of common misconceptions 00:12:26.299 --> 00:12:28.820 or challenges that you think people in faith 00:12:28.820 --> 00:12:31.500 communities have towards mental health challenges? 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:36.019 Yeah, it's interesting. I had thought that we 00:12:36.019 --> 00:12:38.720 were far beyond this, but then I was talking 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:41.559 to a colleague, another therapist the other day, 00:12:41.620 --> 00:12:45.299 and it came up that this still happens, and I 00:12:45.299 --> 00:12:48.340 thought how awful this is. Because I believe 00:12:48.340 --> 00:12:50.879 there are Christians and churches that even think 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:55.740 that something like depression or anxiety or 00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:59.659 any of the OCD or any of the difficulties that 00:12:59.659 --> 00:13:03.909 people have are sinful. Or a lack of willpower. 00:13:04.070 --> 00:13:08.750 Right. And you're just being weak. And that is 00:13:08.750 --> 00:13:11.789 so, it really makes me sad to think that that 00:13:11.789 --> 00:13:16.289 is still out there. And yet it is. And so I think 00:13:16.289 --> 00:13:19.149 we have to bar against that. So the answer is 00:13:19.149 --> 00:13:21.389 in our faith. I mean, we've got everything in 00:13:21.389 --> 00:13:23.090 the faith. We've got the community. We've got 00:13:23.090 --> 00:13:27.230 all the things that can support. But if we think 00:13:27.230 --> 00:13:30.049 of emotional issues, we wouldn't think of physical 00:13:30.049 --> 00:13:33.559 issues as sinful. Or mental, like cognitive, 00:13:33.779 --> 00:13:35.440 you don't think somebody's sinful just because 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.759 they aren't as smart as you. However, we can 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:42.220 go there and that they're not strong and not 00:13:42.220 --> 00:13:45.980 being strong enough if they have an anxiety or 00:13:45.980 --> 00:13:49.659 a fear or depression. Right, yeah. Yeah, I think 00:13:49.659 --> 00:13:53.379 that's a really big thing. And I think even... 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.600 I think there's nuances to that, right? So there 00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:59.840 would be some people who might say, you know, 00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:02.639 these mental illnesses are sinful in and of themselves, 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:04.720 but there's other people who maybe they wouldn't 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.720 say it in those words, but they would say, well, 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:12.519 you just need more faith, right? Or, well, if 00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:14.860 you just trust God, if you just keep praying, 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:19.919 God will cure you of this mental illness. And 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:21.960 there's truth in that. Sure. There's truth in 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.679 that because we do need more faith. I don't know 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:27.620 if we need more faith. We need more trust and 00:14:27.620 --> 00:14:31.080 more obedience. But that doesn't cure the emotional 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.000 issue. It's the same as if I break a leg, like 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.480 I have to go to the doctor and get it set and 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:39.299 so on and so forth. And we know that. I mean, 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:41.960 God could zap his finger and do it, but he doesn't 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:45.860 as a rule. So with emotions, it's the same thing. 00:14:45.899 --> 00:14:48.720 We have to work through them. And there's many 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.539 things and it's just like, you know, I broke 00:14:52.539 --> 00:14:55.779 my arm last year and it's healed, it's functional, 00:14:55.899 --> 00:14:58.879 it's wonderful, but it's not like it was before. 00:14:59.139 --> 00:15:03.039 And so when we have emotional issues that happen 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:06.919 to us, and we all do from birth on, like you 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:11.659 mend to a degree, but they're still there. And 00:15:11.659 --> 00:15:14.460 so you still continue to work through those. 00:15:15.210 --> 00:15:17.169 And our faith can be very helpful in working 00:15:17.169 --> 00:15:20.169 through those. But we still need to recognize 00:15:20.169 --> 00:15:23.330 that we have responses that are just part of 00:15:23.330 --> 00:15:26.429 who we are. And the more worn down we are in 00:15:26.429 --> 00:15:28.309 one way or another, the more those responses 00:15:28.309 --> 00:15:31.009 will come out. Sure, yeah. In other words, coping 00:15:31.009 --> 00:15:33.250 mechanisms that aren't very helpful. Sure, yeah. 00:15:34.009 --> 00:15:38.009 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I appreciate the sort of 00:15:38.009 --> 00:15:41.049 line that we're trying to walk here where we're 00:15:41.049 --> 00:15:43.419 saying, You know, that there is something really 00:15:43.419 --> 00:15:48.840 valuable in faith, and faith is not the magic 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.960 cure -all, right? That there's something, faith 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.059 provides us with positive coping mechanisms, 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.700 but it's not just have more faith and you'll 00:15:57.700 --> 00:16:02.220 be fine. Exactly. Because along with that faith, 00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:04.820 you have to, just like you have to let your leg 00:16:04.820 --> 00:16:09.399 heal, there has to be healing. in your emotions. 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:14.700 And recognizing that emotions, we don't get over 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:19.700 them. And we don't get over the impact that our 00:16:19.700 --> 00:16:22.080 childhood, every... therapists that you work 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.159 with will always take you back to childhood and 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:28.559 there's a reason for that because we we set up 00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:31.740 patterns and ways of thinking when we're children 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:35.179 that we continue to act out as adults even though 00:16:35.179 --> 00:16:38.019 they're no longer necessary and or helpful yeah 00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:41.019 but it's just so in part of our dna that we just 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:44.899 do it yeah and so so that's uh and that is part 00:16:44.899 --> 00:16:47.940 of us and no matter how old we are yeah and that 00:16:47.940 --> 00:16:52.879 will pop up yes For sure. For sure. So as we're 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:55.620 thinking about that, I think for some folks, 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:59.259 whether it's in childhood or later, the church 00:16:59.259 --> 00:17:03.379 is sometimes a place that causes some challenges, 00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:08.900 causes some harm. And so, yeah, what are some 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:12.940 ways that you think the churches can work to 00:17:12.940 --> 00:17:16.980 reduce harm, but also to promote a sense of healing 00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:20.640 for those who have been hurt by? or by faith. 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:24.400 Yeah. I think a church at its best is family. 00:17:24.619 --> 00:17:29.160 Yep. And just like our biggest hurts and joys 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:34.640 can come from our family of origin and also it 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.039 can come from the church. And it's because it's 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:41.220 so important that those hurts are real. And so 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:46.500 that you can get hurt by people and relationships 00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:49.450 because... We're all people here just like we 00:17:49.450 --> 00:17:53.230 are out there. We can hurt each other and love 00:17:53.230 --> 00:17:56.109 each other. But the church has so many things. 00:17:56.630 --> 00:18:01.349 First of all, it is a community. Having a mental 00:18:01.349 --> 00:18:05.369 health issue can be... I'm going to try and change 00:18:05.369 --> 00:18:08.410 that to an emotional health issue. I may go on 00:18:08.410 --> 00:18:12.789 a campaign. It can cause people... One of the 00:18:12.789 --> 00:18:15.180 first things people want to do... especially 00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:17.519 if it's depression, is they want to isolate. 00:18:18.180 --> 00:18:22.000 And because they don't like being around themselves, 00:18:22.019 --> 00:18:24.700 so they find it really difficult to think that 00:18:24.700 --> 00:18:26.740 anybody else would want to be around them. Sure. 00:18:27.019 --> 00:18:31.920 So church can really be the community of that 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:35.660 person. And I would encourage anyone struggling 00:18:35.660 --> 00:18:38.819 to reach out, but also sometimes the church needs 00:18:38.819 --> 00:18:42.039 to reach out to them. because they can't sometimes. 00:18:42.299 --> 00:18:44.819 And so any way that the church can reach out 00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:47.940 to people and be available. Another huge thing 00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:51.660 I think that the church can do is to start to 00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:57.640 recognize within each individual, encourage the 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:02.440 idea that it's important to know our own issues. 00:19:03.460 --> 00:19:07.730 A number of years ago, If I'm off on a tangent 00:19:07.730 --> 00:19:11.470 here, I know you'll bring me back. So a number 00:19:11.470 --> 00:19:14.349 of years ago, I started working with Hospice 00:19:14.349 --> 00:19:17.569 Peel. It's a wonderful organization. And I used 00:19:17.569 --> 00:19:20.890 to do some training of their volunteers, their 00:19:20.890 --> 00:19:23.769 bereavement volunteers. And one of the things 00:19:23.769 --> 00:19:26.630 that I came up with was these are people, most 00:19:26.630 --> 00:19:29.910 people that volunteer there, obviously, have 00:19:29.910 --> 00:19:32.650 been people that go through bereavement themselves. 00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:35.630 And one of the things that I realized that... 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.960 People have to be at a certain level before they 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:41.240 can help others. And I came up with this thing 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:43.799 about know yourself, accept yourself, forget 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:47.180 yourself. And you really can't be helping other 00:19:47.180 --> 00:19:51.140 people if you're still so busy, busy knowing 00:19:51.140 --> 00:19:53.559 yourself. Now, trust me, this is circular because 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:55.700 the more we forget ourselves, the more we learn 00:19:55.700 --> 00:19:58.380 about ourselves. But in the moment that we're 00:19:58.380 --> 00:20:01.200 helping people, we need to be the small circle. 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:05.950 So in order to be the small circle, we have to 00:20:05.950 --> 00:20:08.849 work through some of our own stuff too. Sure. 00:20:09.069 --> 00:20:11.809 And so it's the know yourself by figuring out 00:20:11.809 --> 00:20:14.190 your own emotional levels and accepting yourself 00:20:14.190 --> 00:20:17.390 that that's just who I am and that's okay. It's 00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:20.809 okay. And then be able to forget yourself when 00:20:20.809 --> 00:20:24.170 you're working with other people. Like as a therapist 00:20:24.170 --> 00:20:27.190 in the room, if I'm not being the small circle, 00:20:27.329 --> 00:20:29.789 I'm not being a very good therapist. Right. And 00:20:29.789 --> 00:20:33.180 I can't be the small circle. if I'm busy thinking 00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:35.160 about my own stuff and working through my own 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.859 stuff. Sure. Yeah. And it's not that it doesn't 00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:40.940 come up, but you're able to set it aside. Right. 00:20:41.059 --> 00:20:44.140 But then be honest to yourself and honoring of 00:20:44.140 --> 00:20:46.700 yourself by working through that stuff on your 00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:48.960 own. Right. Or with other people. Sure. Yeah. 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:51.579 Sure. But just not in that moment. Owning it. 00:20:51.700 --> 00:20:55.339 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really 00:20:55.339 --> 00:20:59.880 interesting and really important to think about 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.490 as we think about Christian leadership in particular, 00:21:03.910 --> 00:21:08.410 as we think about pastors or deacons or whoever 00:21:08.410 --> 00:21:11.230 it is that is leading and caring for other people, 00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:16.970 it does require some deep work on yourself to 00:21:16.970 --> 00:21:21.829 be able to do that well. Absolutely. May I just 00:21:21.829 --> 00:21:23.710 mention, because I just glanced down at my notes 00:21:23.710 --> 00:21:25.950 here, a couple other things that when you mentioned 00:21:25.950 --> 00:21:28.390 about what the church... One of the things that 00:21:28.390 --> 00:21:30.490 happens, especially with people who are depressed 00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:33.109 or going through difficult times, is to remain 00:21:33.109 --> 00:21:38.869 hopeful. And the church can provide that, but 00:21:38.869 --> 00:21:42.549 in a loving, like not in a platitude type way, 00:21:42.609 --> 00:21:46.089 but in a very loving way of walking beside people. 00:21:46.349 --> 00:21:49.309 And sometimes when people are really down, you 00:21:49.309 --> 00:21:51.970 have to hold the hope that they don't have. And 00:21:51.970 --> 00:21:56.009 our Christian belief. It's all about, like, the 00:21:56.009 --> 00:21:58.309 hope. It doesn't matter how bad of a mess the 00:21:58.309 --> 00:22:02.190 world is in. Like, we know who wins here. Yeah, 00:22:02.269 --> 00:22:06.630 yeah, yeah. Like, we know. And so that hope, 00:22:06.730 --> 00:22:10.930 if we can carry that, and, you know, something 00:22:10.930 --> 00:22:14.269 I guess I'd throw in here is that people don't 00:22:14.269 --> 00:22:15.990 know, they don't care how much you know until 00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:18.289 they know how much you care. And I know that's 00:22:18.289 --> 00:22:21.009 an old saying, but it's really true. But if you 00:22:21.009 --> 00:22:23.890 really, if they know, I can get away with my 00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:26.950 clients with things and say things to them and 00:22:26.950 --> 00:22:29.730 push them quite a bit because they know I care. 00:22:29.990 --> 00:22:32.430 Right. Yeah. But if you tried that before they 00:22:32.430 --> 00:22:34.990 know that, it won't work. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. 00:22:35.329 --> 00:22:38.670 Yeah. So it also then requires building a bit 00:22:38.670 --> 00:22:43.109 of trust, which I think then requires you to 00:22:43.109 --> 00:22:46.740 be in it for the long haul. For sure. Yeah, yeah, 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.519 yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is something that I think 00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:54.759 a local church and its members can do quite well, 00:22:54.900 --> 00:23:00.380 right? Because the individuals in a church, you 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:03.119 know, maybe come and go, but the church itself 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:06.720 stays and is fairly permanent. And hopefully 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.240 the people who are leading that church can make 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:13.660 a commitment to... being there to walking with 00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:18.079 people through a season, through many seasons, 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:20.720 hopefully. And I don't think it's only the leadership. 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.259 I think that it's something that each individual, 00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:27.559 like the congregation in general, can participate 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:30.180 in that and needs to participate in that because 00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:33.140 you leaders can't do it all. Sure, yeah, yeah, 00:23:33.140 --> 00:23:36.599 yeah, sure. And I think another piece of that 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:40.240 is to know. when the person needs professional 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:43.960 help too. Sure. Yeah, because I think that, and 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.339 yeah, because like we can't do it all within 00:23:47.339 --> 00:23:49.940 the church. We are just there, I think, to support 00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:55.059 and encourage. But encouraging, part of the encouragement 00:23:55.059 --> 00:23:57.359 is encouraging people to get professional help 00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:59.700 when they need it. Sure. You wouldn't let somebody 00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:02.000 walk in here with a broken leg and not tell them 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:05.180 to go to a doctor. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. So 00:24:05.180 --> 00:24:09.119 I think that's, a tricky thing for pastors and 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:11.359 church leaders and people to sort of figure out 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:14.640 is what, what is mine to do and what needs to 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:16.660 be sort of referred elsewhere. So like, what, 00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:19.000 what would you sort of say into that space? If 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:21.319 there's someone, a church leader trying to figure 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:23.680 out, okay, I have this, this person before me, 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.480 how do I know what's mine to care for and what 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:32.619 I need to refer to a professional? Yeah. I, I, 00:24:32.619 --> 00:24:37.099 I think that, that, It has to do, if you think 00:24:37.099 --> 00:24:40.160 in terms of what we started off here with, with 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:42.380 the, like, is there an emotional issue here? 00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:46.019 Like if this person comes in, like you as leaders 00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:49.039 of a church, you're spiritual, you're spiritual 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:53.039 leaders. And that's really important. It's not 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:55.440 emotional leaders. Right. So if somebody comes 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:59.200 to you with an emotional issue. Right. Then to 00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:02.170 me, that's, that's not in the, you're not. qualified 00:25:02.170 --> 00:25:07.750 sure sure yes yeah and and uh yeah so so it's 00:25:07.750 --> 00:25:10.529 the it's the idea of being able to discern and 00:25:10.529 --> 00:25:13.009 it's not always easy to discern sure because 00:25:13.009 --> 00:25:15.349 it may appear like a spiritual issue that really 00:25:15.349 --> 00:25:18.869 is an emotional issue sure and uh but uh and 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:23.039 But I think it's important to just, and the severity 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.539 of it, because we all have emotional issues. 00:25:25.619 --> 00:25:27.720 You remember that continuum? Right. We all have 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:29.839 anxiety. We all have depression. It's just where 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:32.559 we are in the continuum. Sure. And so it's a 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:36.539 judgment call, of course. Yep. But if you think 00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:39.359 of it, I relate it back to the physical. It's 00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:42.160 like... if somebody is really looking physically 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.400 sick or they've got, you would recommend they 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.880 go to a doctor, would you not? Sure. Yes. Yeah. 00:25:46.940 --> 00:25:49.779 So I think you'd trust your discernment in that 00:25:49.779 --> 00:25:53.220 and try, but, and recognizing that you don't 00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:56.119 have to be all things to all people. Sure. Like 00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:57.859 if somebody starts talking to me about legal 00:25:57.859 --> 00:25:59.920 things, I'm not going to, that would be very 00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:02.779 wrong for me to talk to them or to suggest or 00:26:02.779 --> 00:26:04.859 business things. I'm not an expert. That's not 00:26:04.859 --> 00:26:08.140 my expertise. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And 00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:10.950 I think, As you were talking there, I was sort 00:26:10.950 --> 00:26:14.309 of reflecting on my own journey with spiritual 00:26:14.309 --> 00:26:16.589 and emotional health and just thinking there 00:26:16.589 --> 00:26:19.390 are moments and there have been moments in my 00:26:19.390 --> 00:26:22.369 life where therapists have been super helpful 00:26:22.369 --> 00:26:24.829 in helping me figure out emotional challenges 00:26:24.829 --> 00:26:29.529 in my life. And at the same time, I still needed 00:26:29.529 --> 00:26:33.009 and wanted spiritual support and leaders, right? 00:26:33.109 --> 00:26:36.210 It's not like we refer someone to a mental health 00:26:36.210 --> 00:26:38.500 professional and then we... Abandon them to that. 00:26:38.579 --> 00:26:42.220 Of course not. No, no. It's not one or the other. 00:26:42.500 --> 00:26:45.319 It's both. But it's just recognizing who needs 00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:48.440 to take charge of what part of it. Yes. Yeah. 00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:53.819 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you talked about this, 00:26:53.900 --> 00:26:57.400 the importance of this work of knowing your own 00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:00.380 stuff so that you can sort of know yourself and 00:27:00.380 --> 00:27:02.700 then move towards the forgetting of yourself 00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:05.099 so you can care for other people. So how do we 00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:09.720 do that? Are there sort of certain tools or resources 00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:12.039 that you might recommend to help someone start 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:14.839 to do some of that work of knowing themselves? 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:18.660 Yeah, I think one of the first things, as far 00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:22.160 as I'm concerned, is to... to start to understand 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:24.980 your emotions a little bit. And it's sometimes 00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:27.220 just to check in. Like we're feeling all the 00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:29.859 time. So sometimes it's just an idea to say, 00:27:29.980 --> 00:27:32.420 okay, how am I feeling right now? And I tell 00:27:32.420 --> 00:27:36.920 my clients that there's really four basic emotions, 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:40.859 sad, mad, glad, and afraid. And then under that, 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.339 there's a whole bunch of vocabulary that is very 00:27:43.339 --> 00:27:45.819 helpful to learn. Like there's a huge difference 00:27:45.819 --> 00:27:50.039 between... melancholy and despair sure uh there's 00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.319 a huge difference between annoyed and rage yes 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:56.059 uh but they all come under anger they all come 00:27:56.059 --> 00:27:58.960 under yeah so it's it's getting to uh like i 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:02.339 tell my clients like acknowledge acknowledge 00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:07.519 the feeling yeah and and um and affirm it and 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:10.519 by affirming it i just mean it's okay right so 00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:13.380 it's like no matter we're afraid to feel some 00:28:13.380 --> 00:28:16.710 feelings Because we go to the expression, but 00:28:16.710 --> 00:28:19.329 a feeling by itself is a messenger. It's just 00:28:19.329 --> 00:28:21.549 telling us something. Sure. And we don't want 00:28:21.549 --> 00:28:26.170 to listen to it. Yeah. And so like if you just 00:28:26.170 --> 00:28:28.549 say, okay, I'm feeling sad right now. Right. 00:28:28.549 --> 00:28:30.269 And the next thing you recognize you're sad, 00:28:30.410 --> 00:28:33.089 then it's okay that I'm sad. Right. And then 00:28:33.089 --> 00:28:34.950 you might want to do some investigating about, 00:28:35.029 --> 00:28:36.930 I wonder what that's about. What's the message 00:28:36.930 --> 00:28:40.789 right now? But sadness is an important feeling. 00:28:41.109 --> 00:28:43.539 Sure. We don't want to chase it away. Because 00:28:43.539 --> 00:28:47.079 sadness is always about loss. It's always about 00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:51.640 loss. And once you allow yourself to grieve and 00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:54.859 mourn whatever the loss is, it's inviting you 00:28:54.859 --> 00:28:57.920 to let go of something so you can grab onto something 00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:01.299 else. Sure. But if you don't go through the process 00:29:01.299 --> 00:29:05.140 of feeling the loss, then you can't get to the 00:29:05.140 --> 00:29:08.339 other. Yeah. Anger has such a terrible reputation, 00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:12.559 especially among women. Yes. Anger has such a 00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:16.539 bad reputation. But anger is so important because 00:29:16.539 --> 00:29:20.259 it's the motivator. Right. If people hadn't got 00:29:20.259 --> 00:29:23.500 angry, you and I wouldn't vote. Right. Yeah, 00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:27.720 yeah. So it's a motivator. However, if it gets 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:31.480 out of place, then it becomes very destructive. 00:29:31.819 --> 00:29:34.019 Sure. But anger on itself is very motivating. 00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:37.480 It sets a boundary. has been crossed here or 00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:41.380 violated. A value has been violated. And I need 00:29:41.380 --> 00:29:45.819 to do something to put in a boundary to put that 00:29:45.819 --> 00:29:50.160 back in place. So anger is important. All emotions 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:53.539 are important. And if we see them that way. So 00:29:53.539 --> 00:29:57.640 that's the first thing, is just to be able to 00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:01.059 be aware of how you're feeling. Because most 00:30:01.059 --> 00:30:03.769 people don't want to do that. Sure. Yeah, yeah, 00:30:03.769 --> 00:30:06.750 yeah, for sure. And seen as weak. Yeah, yeah, 00:30:06.809 --> 00:30:13.730 for sure. So if there are folks who are listening 00:30:13.730 --> 00:30:17.710 who are people of faith, Christians, who find 00:30:17.710 --> 00:30:20.710 themselves struggling with their emotional health, 00:30:20.890 --> 00:30:24.089 are there resources or next steps that you might 00:30:24.089 --> 00:30:28.599 offer to them? The first would be to admit that 00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:31.839 they are. The second would be to reach out for 00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:36.220 help. Because I said before about people want 00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:39.099 to isolate, and it's important for them to reach 00:30:39.099 --> 00:30:44.240 out. And so to reach out and to be open about 00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:46.759 things and being willing. I know it's going to 00:30:46.759 --> 00:30:48.900 take time, but being willing just to be vulnerable 00:30:48.900 --> 00:30:51.680 with people. The other part of it is, I'm not 00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:55.289 talking here about people like... falling apart 00:30:55.289 --> 00:31:00.069 all the time, all over. One has to discern the 00:31:00.069 --> 00:31:03.390 appropriate time with the appropriate people. 00:31:03.650 --> 00:31:07.329 Sure. I think there are two extremes. People 00:31:07.329 --> 00:31:12.710 that they're like a vault. They never admit any 00:31:12.710 --> 00:31:15.750 emotions. And then people that are emoting, well, 00:31:15.750 --> 00:31:18.470 neither one of those are healthy emotional places. 00:31:18.869 --> 00:31:23.269 Right. So it's... being willing to get help to 00:31:23.269 --> 00:31:26.190 see that, but also to take some direction and, 00:31:26.329 --> 00:31:29.049 and be open to that. Cause I don't, I think we 00:31:29.049 --> 00:31:33.150 need to, to be free to direct people in certain 00:31:33.150 --> 00:31:36.089 ways, but yeah, seek help and, and reach out. 00:31:36.170 --> 00:31:41.269 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And for, what about for folks 00:31:41.269 --> 00:31:45.089 who are knowing someone who's struggling with, 00:31:45.170 --> 00:31:48.869 with their emotional health? You know, what, 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:52.240 would be sort of helpful steps for them to take. 00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:57.259 Yeah. Yeah, again, you know, it's that, first 00:31:57.259 --> 00:31:59.680 of all, if it's somebody that is close to you 00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:04.259 that you are, be patient, which is hard sometimes. 00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:08.440 Totally. And be willing to sit with their pain. 00:32:08.779 --> 00:32:10.759 Yeah. And, you know, I mentioned that before, 00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:14.180 and I can't emphasize that enough, is that, and 00:32:14.180 --> 00:32:17.359 it's uncomfortable and so on, but to be willing 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:21.450 to sit with their pain. Yep. And also to suggest 00:32:21.450 --> 00:32:24.529 to them that they get help. Right. Yeah. And 00:32:24.529 --> 00:32:30.630 not to allow yourself to be drawn into it because 00:32:30.630 --> 00:32:32.190 you don't want to go down the drain with them. 00:32:32.329 --> 00:32:34.130 Sure. So you have to watch your own boundaries 00:32:34.130 --> 00:32:36.930 around stuff like that too. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. 00:32:37.009 --> 00:32:40.470 I think that can be especially hard. I know it's 00:32:40.470 --> 00:32:44.089 hard for... christian leaders caring for other 00:32:44.089 --> 00:32:45.849 people but i think it's also it's even harder 00:32:45.849 --> 00:32:47.430 and more complicated when you're talking about 00:32:47.430 --> 00:32:51.130 family and friends right because it's it's this 00:32:51.130 --> 00:32:53.869 person you know maybe it's your partner it's 00:32:53.869 --> 00:32:56.650 your whole world it's your kid it's right but 00:32:56.650 --> 00:33:00.130 how to to figure out okay what does it look like 00:33:00.130 --> 00:33:07.250 to sit with them in their pain and to take care 00:33:07.250 --> 00:33:10.869 of yourself at the same time. I think Jesus gave 00:33:10.869 --> 00:33:14.569 us a really good model of that. I must admit 00:33:14.569 --> 00:33:18.470 I'm a bit of a fan of the series The Chosen because 00:33:18.470 --> 00:33:24.089 I think it has shown Christ in such a human way 00:33:24.089 --> 00:33:29.190 as well as a godly. And like the way that, but 00:33:29.190 --> 00:33:31.839 in the scriptures it's very, very clear. That, 00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:33.980 I mean, he was with people. He was passionate 00:33:33.980 --> 00:33:37.920 and being with them. But he took time to be with 00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.319 his father and taking care of himself. Right. 00:33:40.460 --> 00:33:42.519 And to go off and pray. Yeah. And even though 00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:44.119 they thought they should go one direction, he 00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:46.460 was quite willing to go another direction because 00:33:46.460 --> 00:33:48.819 the Lord had led him in that way. I think we 00:33:48.819 --> 00:33:51.460 need to do that, too. It's like we're not going 00:33:51.460 --> 00:33:54.500 to be, it's that whole put your mask on, your 00:33:54.500 --> 00:33:56.980 own mask on first sort of thing. Right. Because, 00:33:56.980 --> 00:34:00.380 yeah, you need to. care for people but at the 00:34:00.380 --> 00:34:02.480 same time you can't care for them if you're not 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:05.000 caring for yourself right and keeping your own 00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:08.119 self in proper physical emotional and mental 00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:11.900 health and spiritual health yeah yeah yeah yeah 00:34:11.900 --> 00:34:15.679 for sure and i think that feels really hard to 00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:22.219 do sometimes but still really important One of 00:34:22.219 --> 00:34:24.860 the things I just, I love continuums. I think 00:34:24.860 --> 00:34:26.880 my clients get very tired of me talking about 00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:30.039 continuums, but I love continuums. My husband 00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:32.079 said I got to stop it when I asked him to do 00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:34.079 a continuum between peanut butter and almond 00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:39.639 butter, but I can be a bit extreme. Anyway, point 00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:45.860 being that if you know yourself, I think there 00:34:45.860 --> 00:34:50.739 are two extremes. One is that you are so clinical. 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:55.360 and that you appear cold and uncaring. So you're 00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:58.280 way over here. And the other one is that you're 00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:02.340 so compassionate and empathetic and so on that 00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:06.519 you just burn out and so on. And so neither one 00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.139 of those extremes is healthy. It's helpful, first 00:35:09.139 --> 00:35:12.019 of all, to know which side you fall on, like 00:35:12.019 --> 00:35:15.039 which end are you closest to, because then that 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:18.179 helps you. to know which way you have to move. 00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:21.780 Sure. I have a wide idea. I always say between 00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:24.219 3 and 7 is normal, natural, and to be expected. 00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:28.460 But if you find yourself out at an 8 or a 9 in 00:35:28.460 --> 00:35:31.480 one end or a 1 and 2 at the other, then you need 00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:35.980 to move in. Sure. So then knowing where you are, 00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:38.239 then that tells you, do I have to be more clinical 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:42.340 in this situation and protect myself, or do I 00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:48.150 need to be warmer? more caring yeah yeah and 00:35:48.150 --> 00:35:52.489 as someone who in situations where i'm providing 00:35:52.489 --> 00:35:55.230 care to another person i think my natural instinct 00:35:55.230 --> 00:35:59.829 is towards compassion and so to hear maybe sometimes 00:35:59.829 --> 00:36:02.510 i need to be a little more clinical is challenging 00:36:02.510 --> 00:36:05.329 and it sometimes it feels like well no that's 00:36:05.329 --> 00:36:09.539 not Jesus was all about compassion and those 00:36:09.539 --> 00:36:12.340 sort of things. He was also taking care of himself. 00:36:12.380 --> 00:36:14.500 He was also taking care of himself. Yeah. Yeah. 00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:17.119 And so to bring those things together, I think 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:19.360 is really important. Yeah. The other thing I 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:22.679 think that's important is to be able to recognize 00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:27.059 that it's their issue. Right. And by the way, 00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:30.119 that's a very caring, loving thing to leave it 00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:33.820 with them because we can get so involved. That 00:36:33.820 --> 00:36:36.159 we get to be the big circle and it becomes about 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:40.239 us. Right. And so it's like to be compassionate 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.280 and empathetic with the person, but leave it 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:46.420 with them. It's theirs. Honor them. Give them 00:36:46.420 --> 00:36:49.760 the idea that they can do this. Right. Because 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:52.139 with God's help, they can. Right. Yeah. Sort 00:36:52.139 --> 00:36:54.559 of honoring their whole personhood. Exactly. 00:36:54.780 --> 00:36:57.900 Right? That this is someone who, yeah, has all 00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:02.139 of these complex issues, but they're not incapable. 00:37:03.179 --> 00:37:06.460 in the grand scheme of things, of coming through 00:37:06.460 --> 00:37:09.900 that, right? With the right support, with, you 00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:11.920 know, the help of other people, with the help 00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:15.159 of God. But yeah, I don't need to take it from 00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:18.820 them. No. So sobering as it is, we can recognize 00:37:18.820 --> 00:37:22.360 that. So say I see a client for an hour for a 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:25.980 week. They're spending 23 hours every day for 00:37:25.980 --> 00:37:31.480 seven days without me. So, I mean, they're doing 00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:35.559 something. So just recognizing that we can help, 00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:39.019 but we don't have to at all. Yeah, sure. That's 00:37:39.019 --> 00:37:41.920 really helpful, I think. Yeah. Was there anything 00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:43.960 else that you wanted to sort of touch on as we 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.059 think about this idea of faith and emotional 00:37:47.059 --> 00:37:49.559 health and how? These all intersect with one 00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:52.480 another. No, I think you've given me a really 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.179 good opportunity with your questions, Kyla, to 00:37:55.179 --> 00:37:58.179 say what I said. I think my biggest message, 00:37:58.400 --> 00:37:59.920 and I don't know if it's come across, but my 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:03.039 biggest message would be to recognize that we 00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:06.840 all have emotional issues. Sure. And I think 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:11.219 that by recognizing that, it helps us put less 00:38:11.219 --> 00:38:15.409 stigma on people. that theirs have maybe gone 00:38:15.409 --> 00:38:17.289 to the point where they're causing a little bit 00:38:17.289 --> 00:38:21.469 of dysfunction. But recognizing that there's 00:38:21.469 --> 00:38:25.510 probably about this far between them being dysfunctional 00:38:25.510 --> 00:38:27.730 and where I'm at at this moment sort of thing. 00:38:27.769 --> 00:38:31.849 So it normalizes it a bit. And I think the more 00:38:31.849 --> 00:38:34.630 we recognize that, then the less frightened we 00:38:34.630 --> 00:38:37.070 are of it and the more we're willing to enter 00:38:37.070 --> 00:38:40.329 into it. You're not going to disappear because 00:38:40.329 --> 00:38:45.800 you sit with pain. For five minutes. Yeah, for 00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:51.360 sure. Yeah, that hope that there's something 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:55.340 normal about having emotional health challenges, 00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:58.559 about dealing with all of these things. And that, 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:03.559 you know, faith offers us fertile ground for 00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:07.900 coping with that. Absolutely. Yeah. In the end. 00:39:08.300 --> 00:39:11.219 It's the best coping mechanism in the world, 00:39:11.320 --> 00:39:13.880 but we have to get there by going through the 00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:17.119 emotions. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so 00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:21.380 much, Iris. My pleasure. And thank you for tuning 00:39:21.380 --> 00:39:24.840 in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. Whether 00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:27.719 you are finding yourself in the midst of some 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:29.880 mental and emotional health challenges or whether 00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:31.960 you are simply caring for others who are going 00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:34.760 through those things, I pray that you are able 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:39.460 to find the path forward. through knowing yourself, 00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:42.780 through trusting God and through seeking support 00:39:42.780 --> 00:39:45.820 from those around you. And we will see you again 00:39:45.820 --> 00:39:46.280 next week.