WEBVTT 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:05.400 Thank you for joining us for this week's episode 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:08.400 of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm excited 00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:11.699 to be sitting down today with Ray Aldred, who 00:00:11.699 --> 00:00:15.599 is an indigenous theologian and a professor at 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:19.120 the Vancouver School of Theology. And we're going 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.920 to be talking a little bit about truth and reconciliation, 00:00:22.059 --> 00:00:25.140 and in particular, what this National Day of 00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:27.800 Truth and Reconciliation means for us in Canada 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:31.539 and for us as followers of Christ. And so thank 00:00:31.539 --> 00:00:35.450 you for joining me, Ray. It's good to be here. 00:00:35.890 --> 00:00:38.369 Yeah, maybe you can start by just telling us 00:00:38.369 --> 00:00:41.229 a little bit about your story and what led you 00:00:41.229 --> 00:00:44.929 into your work as a pastor and as a theologian. 00:00:45.649 --> 00:00:51.030 Well, I was born in northern Alberta around Grand 00:00:51.030 --> 00:00:54.030 Prairie. My mom was from the Swan River territory, 00:00:54.229 --> 00:00:56.810 Swan River Band, which is in north of Edmonton, 00:00:56.810 --> 00:01:04.560 about four hours. So. I grew up and experienced 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:09.819 all of the kind of negative attitude Canada had 00:01:09.819 --> 00:01:12.099 against indigenous people, which was prevalent 00:01:12.099 --> 00:01:14.480 when I was growing up. I grew up in the 60s and 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:18.140 70s. And back then, the only time I ever remember 00:01:18.140 --> 00:01:21.120 anything to do with indigenous people usually 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:25.500 was if we were a problem to be solved. And so 00:01:25.500 --> 00:01:27.760 that was usually how the press played it up. 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:32.840 So... or you grow up with this ambivalence about 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:38.319 your identity, you feel ashamed for who you are. 00:01:39.219 --> 00:01:41.260 And then on the other hand, you kind of think 00:01:41.260 --> 00:01:43.319 you hope there might be something good about 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:51.140 who you were. Sure, yeah. So, but no, I got into 00:01:51.140 --> 00:01:54.560 the wrong stuff when I was younger and ended 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:58.689 up. having this born -again experience when I 00:01:58.689 --> 00:02:03.849 was 19 years old, where I said to God, I said, 00:02:03.849 --> 00:02:07.629 if you're up there, I will do anything you ask 00:02:07.629 --> 00:02:12.930 me to if you help me quit using drugs. So then 00:02:12.930 --> 00:02:16.370 I've been sober since then, was when I was 19. 00:02:17.349 --> 00:02:20.969 And then I felt a call into ministry right away, 00:02:21.370 --> 00:02:27.740 but drug addicts are megalomaniacs. So I thought 00:02:27.740 --> 00:02:31.280 I'm not going to make these. I'm not going to 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:33.659 know. I'm not going to be a minister. I'm just 00:02:33.659 --> 00:02:37.819 going to volunteer, go to church, take care of 00:02:37.819 --> 00:02:43.539 my family. Yeah. And which meant getting married 00:02:43.539 --> 00:02:46.680 to the woman I was living with. So we have this 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.340 born again experience on October the 1st and 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:54.000 then I got married on October the 13th. Wow. 00:02:54.330 --> 00:02:57.310 We got married and we were both 19. And then 00:02:57.310 --> 00:03:00.930 I just continued to work in the forest industry. 00:03:01.389 --> 00:03:05.789 And then when I was 28, I thought, well, this 00:03:05.789 --> 00:03:07.650 feeling hasn't gone away. So I'm going to go 00:03:07.650 --> 00:03:12.430 to study theology. So I did. I was 20 years old. 00:03:13.289 --> 00:03:16.069 Did an undergrad degree. While I was in my third 00:03:16.069 --> 00:03:20.469 year, I started pastoring a... First Nations 00:03:20.469 --> 00:03:23.389 Church, the First Nations Alliance Church of 00:03:23.389 --> 00:03:28.770 Regina, Saskatchewan. And that's when I started 00:03:28.770 --> 00:03:30.949 hearing all the stories about the residential 00:03:30.949 --> 00:03:35.590 school. My mom didn't have to go to residential 00:03:35.590 --> 00:03:39.229 school, but my aunties did. But I don't know, 00:03:39.289 --> 00:03:43.669 they never talked about it. But in Regina, I 00:03:43.669 --> 00:03:49.330 started to hear about it. And I don't know, maybe 00:03:49.330 --> 00:03:51.189 when you're a kid you hear bad stuff and you 00:03:51.189 --> 00:03:54.110 see bad stuff and you just block it out. Yeah, 00:03:54.289 --> 00:03:56.349 could be. But I started to hear that and then 00:03:56.349 --> 00:03:58.469 I started to wonder what we could do different. 00:03:58.830 --> 00:04:08.169 Sure. And so we started to think about, I remember 00:04:08.169 --> 00:04:16.910 in 1990, the Oka crisis. That's the first time 00:04:16.910 --> 00:04:20.529 I remember reconciliation was like, that was 00:04:20.529 --> 00:04:25.290 something that people, that word started to get 00:04:25.290 --> 00:04:28.410 thrown around. Sure. Probably before that was 00:04:28.410 --> 00:04:33.850 justice. Like what exactly is justice supposed 00:04:33.850 --> 00:04:40.110 to be? So anyways, I ended up doing some degrees. 00:04:40.110 --> 00:04:46.259 I've been in school forever. Okay. Anyways, I 00:04:46.259 --> 00:04:51.259 eventually ended up in the Anglican Church. That 00:04:51.259 --> 00:04:56.740 was later, though. But always it was about the 00:04:56.740 --> 00:04:59.160 journey of reconciliation. So I'm going to say 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:01.779 that that journey really started in Canada, the 00:05:01.779 --> 00:05:04.560 recent ones. It probably started before then, 00:05:04.779 --> 00:05:08.319 but in 1990 when the Oka crisis happened, that's 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:10.720 when suddenly Canadians realized, okay, everything 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.870 isn't warm and fuzzy. Right, yeah. And there's 00:05:14.870 --> 00:05:21.610 some stuff going on. And so then the Royal Commission 00:05:21.610 --> 00:05:24.170 on Aboriginal People was struck and there's like 00:05:24.170 --> 00:05:30.329 4 ,000 pages. But then in 1995, Dudley George 00:05:30.329 --> 00:05:36.550 is killed at Hipperwash. September, 1995, I think. 00:05:37.629 --> 00:05:42.189 And then in December, But even prior to that, 00:05:42.189 --> 00:05:45.189 a bunch of us met in Winnipeg and we talked about 00:05:45.189 --> 00:05:48.610 being agents of reconciliation and what that 00:05:48.610 --> 00:05:56.329 meant. And then 1995 was Elijah Harper called 00:05:56.329 --> 00:06:00.870 the Sacred Assembly. And there was a statement 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:04.930 of reconciliation that came out of that. Stuff 00:06:04.930 --> 00:06:07.910 continued to happen. First Nations started to 00:06:07.910 --> 00:06:11.509 take Canada to court. or residential schools. 00:06:11.589 --> 00:06:13.689 Well, it wasn't just First Nation. Métis had 00:06:13.689 --> 00:06:18.589 been stuck in them too, some of them. And then 00:06:18.589 --> 00:06:22.689 1998, Canada issued a statement on reconciliation. 00:06:22.850 --> 00:06:25.470 In the 80s, you know, different denominations 00:06:25.470 --> 00:06:29.550 apologized. United Church, Presbyterian, eventually 00:06:29.550 --> 00:06:37.949 the Anglicans would apologize too. And then 1998... 00:06:38.430 --> 00:06:42.329 statement of reconciliation. And then different 00:06:42.329 --> 00:06:44.329 things started to happen. Eventually in 2008, 00:06:44.629 --> 00:06:49.970 Stephen Harper declares, he apologizes. He apologizes 00:06:49.970 --> 00:06:52.110 to the survivors in the residential schools. 00:06:52.930 --> 00:06:56.470 And then that leads to the Truth and Reconciliation 00:06:56.470 --> 00:07:00.670 Commission. And that leads to several meetings 00:07:00.670 --> 00:07:05.509 across Canada. This whole time people were trying 00:07:05.509 --> 00:07:08.209 to talk. We're trying to really do three things 00:07:08.209 --> 00:07:11.050 And they all flow out of restorative justice. 00:07:11.050 --> 00:07:13.490 We're trying to tell the truth So you create 00:07:13.490 --> 00:07:16.610 places that people can tell the truth. Yep, but 00:07:16.610 --> 00:07:20.329 what really happened and you do that so that 00:07:20.329 --> 00:07:24.730 People can hear they can listen and have it break 00:07:24.730 --> 00:07:30.550 their heart. Yeah because unless you feel the 00:07:30.550 --> 00:07:34.379 damage that was done, then you won't have the 00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:38.839 emotional strength to actually change. You actually 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.100 need those negative emotions. They actually give 00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:44.079 you the energy to change. Right. If you don't 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:48.819 just try to avoid them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You 00:07:48.819 --> 00:07:52.639 need that impetus, right? Yes. And then, uh, 00:07:53.860 --> 00:07:59.439 and then the, uh, 2000, like 2015, right? The 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:02.319 final report of the TRC and then since that just 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:04.899 talking at different places when I have the opportunity 00:08:04.899 --> 00:08:08.040 to talk about what it would look like mm -hmm 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:11.420 We reconciled so tell the truth really listen 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:14.379 come up with a shared plan That third thing is 00:08:14.379 --> 00:08:16.019 what we're trying to find right now. We're trying 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:20.319 to come up with a shared plan. Yep So yeah, I 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:22.740 don't know that's a long answer. No, no that 00:08:22.740 --> 00:08:25.040 but that that's a really helpful overview. I 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:31.939 think Yeah, and Like, what has your sort of ministry 00:08:31.939 --> 00:08:37.000 looked like in all of that? Yeah, how have you 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:44.360 sort of journeyed through that? Well, I end up 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:48.440 doing a variety of things, but there's kind of 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:54.519 three sort of things. I mean, as a theologian, 00:08:54.620 --> 00:08:57.179 I ended up, because I did the tip. degree in 00:08:57.179 --> 00:09:00.620 theology so that what theology I don't know I 00:09:00.620 --> 00:09:02.460 always thought of theology trying to provide 00:09:02.460 --> 00:09:05.460 eloquent solutions to sort of things okay not 00:09:05.460 --> 00:09:09.879 solutions but ways forward maybe sure you kind 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:16.460 of give people a theological support for some 00:09:16.460 --> 00:09:18.519 movements that need to happen and you also need 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.220 to critique popular theology because these popular 00:09:21.220 --> 00:09:24.340 ideas spring up that aren't very helpful yep 00:09:24.940 --> 00:09:28.179 When it comes to people who have suffered abuse, 00:09:28.860 --> 00:09:31.440 one of the things that doesn't help people is 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.860 telling them they just need to forgive. Like 00:09:33.860 --> 00:09:37.159 that doesn't help anybody. Or that they just 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:40.980 need to love, or that they just need a deeper 00:09:40.980 --> 00:09:43.299 spiritual experience or something. That doesn't 00:09:43.299 --> 00:09:47.980 help anybody. So you have to try to help people 00:09:47.980 --> 00:09:52.899 develop a theology that fits better where they 00:09:52.899 --> 00:09:58.759 find themselves. Sure. So I tried to do that 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:01.899 in developing a better theology of creation. 00:10:02.340 --> 00:10:08.419 Okay. And showing that really salvation and reconciliation 00:10:08.419 --> 00:10:12.559 are all about what have always been God's plan 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:18.220 for creation. God's plan for creation is to move 00:10:18.220 --> 00:10:22.759 from, you know, the initial immaturity of creation 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:27.879 to a point when creator and creation meet in 00:10:27.879 --> 00:10:33.379 perfect harmony. And we see that in Jesus Christ, 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:40.539 who is fully God, so creator, fully human, so 00:10:40.539 --> 00:10:45.820 creation. In Christ, creator and creation meet 00:10:45.820 --> 00:10:49.519 in perfect harmony. So then following like the 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:53.899 early theologians, Irenaeus, for example, uh 00:10:53.899 --> 00:10:58.179 what christ does is sets creation back on the 00:10:58.179 --> 00:11:05.259 right path again and so then all of ministry 00:11:05.259 --> 00:11:09.559 really fits within joining creator on this path 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.759 of creation right just seeing all things reconciled 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:15.960 creator and creation made in perfect harmony 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:23.240 i did that because uh We weren't developing a 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:28.059 real good theology for why we need to work against 00:11:28.059 --> 00:11:32.779 climate change. Sure. And we also weren't figuring 00:11:32.779 --> 00:11:36.620 things why it's bad to damage the earth. So then 00:11:36.620 --> 00:11:38.799 one of the things that we were doing was you 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:44.159 got to heal the land. So then thinking through 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.379 that, but that also involved healing the land 00:11:47.379 --> 00:11:53.279 also involved things like having a process to 00:11:53.279 --> 00:12:00.039 help communities who find unmarked graves. And 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:02.860 that happens in almost every indigenous community 00:12:02.860 --> 00:12:10.019 around the world. Sure. So then, and work towards, 00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:14.899 you know, food security that fits under, that 00:12:14.899 --> 00:12:20.080 fits under, deal the land. And then the other 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.059 kinds of things that we're doing was to help 00:12:22.059 --> 00:12:25.980 people develop their emotional literacy or their 00:12:25.980 --> 00:12:29.440 emotional intelligence by helping doing some 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:35.179 training around trauma. OK. So when it comes 00:12:35.179 --> 00:12:40.080 to, again, because of abuse and trauma, what 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.080 happens is, and because it's ongoing, we need 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:47.139 to have some better coping strategies. Sure. 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.159 Like if you think about it, using drugs and alcohol 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.340 as a coping strategy, the reason people do that 00:12:53.340 --> 00:12:57.159 is because it works for a time. It's like medicine. 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:02.860 It does what it's supposed to do. But it gets 00:13:02.860 --> 00:13:07.759 out of control. So we need a better coping strategy. 00:13:08.179 --> 00:13:12.679 So we developed a program called Enanamoen with 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:18.620 Rochelle's... Mom came up with that word. And 00:13:18.620 --> 00:13:23.519 in Oji Kri, their language, it means the feelings 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:27.460 that we have in our heart. So we tried to do 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:30.220 some training where people could build, we tried 00:13:30.220 --> 00:13:32.659 to give people the tools to create a small group 00:13:32.659 --> 00:13:34.679 where people could talk about what was really 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:39.240 going on inside. And so then teaching people, 00:13:39.379 --> 00:13:41.860 so then the work of reconciliation was to teach 00:13:41.860 --> 00:13:46.620 people how to be good listeners. Right. And then 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:50.240 help people that could help people work through 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:58.799 the pain in their soul. Right. Modern Western 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:03.379 society lies to people. And it says that you 00:14:03.379 --> 00:14:06.639 can do it all by yourself. You can't. Yeah, nobody. 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:14.409 Nobody can. Independence is I suppose a step. 00:14:16.450 --> 00:14:19.110 Everybody when they're growing up becomes, you 00:14:19.110 --> 00:14:21.070 know, you go through this independent stage where 00:14:21.070 --> 00:14:23.169 you gotta kind of launch out on your own for 00:14:23.169 --> 00:14:27.350 a time. But it's really, maturity is learning 00:14:27.350 --> 00:14:33.330 to be dependent upon others. So, and emotional 00:14:33.330 --> 00:14:36.230 intelligence is just helping people develop ways 00:14:36.230 --> 00:14:40.330 that they could listen to others. Excuse me. 00:14:44.490 --> 00:14:50.909 So workshops about suicide prevention, again, 00:14:51.110 --> 00:14:54.389 coping strategies in midst of trauma, grieving 00:14:54.389 --> 00:14:57.950 seminars, a variety of things, all kinds of stuff 00:14:57.950 --> 00:15:01.450 like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like that all 00:15:01.450 --> 00:15:07.870 feels really important. And I think like it feels 00:15:07.870 --> 00:15:10.929 helpful to me that you've like grounded it really 00:15:10.929 --> 00:15:15.409 well, you know, that it's not just It's not just 00:15:15.409 --> 00:15:17.450 about feelings although the feelings are important 00:15:17.450 --> 00:15:19.250 like it's also about you know the connection 00:15:19.250 --> 00:15:21.909 to land and about the connection to God and to 00:15:21.909 --> 00:15:24.850 other people and I think all of that helps bring 00:15:24.850 --> 00:15:29.070 it together really well And the third kind of 00:15:29.070 --> 00:15:32.850 thing we do is trying to Create a theology and 00:15:32.850 --> 00:15:35.809 we're trying to write a new story for Canada 00:15:35.809 --> 00:15:38.429 because the old one doesn't work all the time 00:15:38.429 --> 00:15:43.669 sure I mean, I remember there was this little 00:15:43.669 --> 00:15:47.830 vignette that was around just around the end 00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:50.669 of Stephen Harper's time. He used to go to the 00:15:50.669 --> 00:15:53.909 theater and they'd have these little vignettes 00:15:53.909 --> 00:15:55.750 before the movie. And I remember one of them 00:15:55.750 --> 00:15:58.809 when I was living in Calgary was they had, they 00:15:58.809 --> 00:16:03.450 just found these, the wreckage of that Explorer. 00:16:05.330 --> 00:16:07.950 Oh, what was his name? He was an Arctic Explorer, 00:16:07.950 --> 00:16:12.039 Franklin. Oh, yes. So then remember they found 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:17.500 They found that guy's boat. Mm -hmm all his boat 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:21.080 was sunk and all of his men died and yeah, and 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:23.779 they tell that story we found this boat and then 00:16:23.779 --> 00:16:27.299 they at the end they'd say Canada a Nation of 00:16:27.299 --> 00:16:30.700 explorers and I thought yeah get lost and die 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:34.639 like What kind of a story is that? Yeah, but 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:39.059 the whole idea that Canada was made simply by 00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:43.779 some newcomers is crazy. The story of Canada 00:16:43.779 --> 00:16:48.779 is that we made treaty with the newcomers. And 00:16:48.779 --> 00:16:52.679 treaty really is becoming relatives. We're affirming 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.440 that everybody, indigenous people, and it was 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.279 indigenous treaty that Canada was founded upon. 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:01.480 That everyone should have the right or the privilege 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:04.980 of a peaceful existence. That everybody should 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:09.069 have access to the land. That everybody should 00:17:09.069 --> 00:17:12.490 be able to eat from the common bowl, as the Haudenosaunee 00:17:12.490 --> 00:17:23.630 put it. Right. And that adds up to people and 00:17:23.630 --> 00:17:25.750 groups of people should be able to be who they 00:17:25.750 --> 00:17:29.710 were created to be. Right. But we live like relatives. 00:17:30.109 --> 00:17:31.950 That was the plan. That's the plan that's always 00:17:31.950 --> 00:17:35.730 been in Canada. is from Indigenous people. So 00:17:35.730 --> 00:17:39.670 Canada has always been a project of Indigenous 00:17:39.670 --> 00:17:43.910 and newcomers. It's always been that way. So 00:17:43.910 --> 00:17:46.089 that's the other kind of thing that you do to 00:17:46.089 --> 00:17:50.029 remind people of how we actually came to be here 00:17:50.029 --> 00:17:53.730 together in this space. And so we can cast a 00:17:53.730 --> 00:17:57.470 vision for unity that doesn't devolve into little 00:17:57.470 --> 00:18:01.490 sectarian groups like this denomination or that 00:18:01.490 --> 00:18:06.799 denomination. understanding that it's about the 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:13.859 fact that creators put us here and our job is 00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:17.460 to that the earth to draw forth when the earth 00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:19.700 what's best and to draw forth from one another 00:18:19.700 --> 00:18:25.019 what's best that's really about yeah so that's 00:18:25.019 --> 00:18:27.240 kind of the three kinds of things i end up doing 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:32.289 yeah no that's very cool um so Where does your 00:18:32.289 --> 00:18:34.789 work with the Vancouver School of Theology sort 00:18:34.789 --> 00:18:37.369 of fit into that? You're doing this indigenous 00:18:37.369 --> 00:18:40.690 studies program. So what does that look like? 00:18:40.730 --> 00:18:44.130 And how is that different from other sort of 00:18:44.130 --> 00:18:49.250 theological education programs? Well, the whole 00:18:49.250 --> 00:18:52.549 thing started goes back to well, I don't know 00:18:52.549 --> 00:18:55.569 when it started, but I'm going to say it starts 00:18:55.569 --> 00:19:00.779 with. The cry from Indigenous people for self 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:05.119 -determination is muffled in Canada until about 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:08.759 the 1970s, well, probably in the late 1950s, 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:13.240 early 1960s. So then there's a law prior to that 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:17.980 that says that Indigenous people can't, you're 00:19:17.980 --> 00:19:20.339 not allowed to raise money to take the Canadian 00:19:20.339 --> 00:19:23.680 government to court, not until the late 50s. 00:19:24.750 --> 00:19:28.349 But in the late 50s and 60s, and then in the 00:19:28.349 --> 00:19:34.349 late 60s, 1969, around there, there's a whole 00:19:34.349 --> 00:19:37.349 bunch of things that happen that sort of mark 00:19:37.349 --> 00:19:40.289 this. It's sort of a significant point because 00:19:40.289 --> 00:19:44.829 in the United States, Vine Deloria, whose Episcopal 00:19:44.829 --> 00:19:49.170 says, we need more real involvement in the church. 00:19:49.609 --> 00:19:51.430 Indigenous people need more real involvement. 00:19:52.380 --> 00:19:55.579 And in Canada, there's a guy by the name of Henry 00:19:55.579 --> 00:19:58.339 writes a report on what the Anglican Church has 00:19:58.339 --> 00:20:01.579 been doing. And he says the same thing. He says 00:20:01.579 --> 00:20:05.099 Anglican Church in Canada needs to stop treating 00:20:05.099 --> 00:20:07.220 indigenous people like their children. They need 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:12.579 to rethink everything that they do. And both 00:20:12.579 --> 00:20:14.920 in Canada and the United States, there's a group 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:19.339 of people who meet. It's called the Indian Ecumenical 00:20:19.339 --> 00:20:23.200 Conference. The first one was either in Montana, 00:20:24.940 --> 00:20:28.980 and they meet, and what they say is that you 00:20:28.980 --> 00:20:31.640 need to make sure that you make space for indigenous 00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:36.140 spirituality, that it's important in its own 00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:40.339 right. And so then they call on the church to 00:20:40.339 --> 00:20:45.799 do that. And they call, so then out of that, 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:47.799 They have several more meetings. I think they 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:50.019 meet for 15 years. Eventually after the first 00:20:50.019 --> 00:20:54.500 one, they end up in Morley, Alberta, which is 00:20:54.500 --> 00:20:57.359 the Stony Nakoda territory. A guy by the name 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:03.619 of Chief John Snow, he's critical and all that. 00:21:06.420 --> 00:21:10.859 But these different, Frank Thomas, Terry Anderson 00:21:10.859 --> 00:21:15.500 had just passed. Frank Thomas, I think is Cherokee, 00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:20.279 and Terry Anderson was just, you know, a newcomer 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.180 from Canada, his family had grown up in Canada. 00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:25.960 And he was teaching at the Vancouver School of 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:28.660 Theology. So out of this, one of the things that 00:21:28.660 --> 00:21:31.740 develops is all these different Indigenous voices 00:21:31.740 --> 00:21:34.599 talking about holding together Indigenous spirituality, 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.940 Christian faith. Out of that comes a call for 00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:42.680 the Vancouver School of Theology to be a place 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:45.259 where Indigenous people could come together and 00:21:45.259 --> 00:21:47.480 talk about how they do that, how they hold together 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.079 Indigenous faith and Christianity, Indigenous 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:55.960 identity and Christian faith. So the program 00:21:55.960 --> 00:22:01.180 starts in 1984. Because one thing that's not 00:22:01.180 --> 00:22:04.579 happening is Indigenous people aren't getting 00:22:04.579 --> 00:22:09.339 ordained to the same rate as non -Indigenous 00:22:09.339 --> 00:22:14.539 people. Because the whole process is primarily 00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:17.539 about, you know, people who, white, not white, 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:23.200 but newcomer, Euro -Canadian people who, you 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:27.220 know, grew up in cities and stuff, and that the 00:22:27.220 --> 00:22:30.740 whole thing is premised around a certain kind 00:22:30.740 --> 00:22:33.420 of person that didn't fit Indigenous people. 00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:39.200 Sure. So, the call came for the Vancouver School 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:42.740 of Theology to order build a program where indigenous 00:22:42.740 --> 00:22:47.859 people could study and be affirmed to be clergy, 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:55.000 to be ordained in an indigenous way. But would 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.259 end up with the credentials necessary to be ordained 00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:02.720 in different mainline denominations. So that's 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:05.920 how the program started in 1984. We just celebrated 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:08.829 our 40th summer school. Yeah, that's awesome. 00:23:09.009 --> 00:23:12.130 So then every summer they'd come together and 00:23:12.130 --> 00:23:18.109 courses were provided that tried to figure out 00:23:18.109 --> 00:23:23.329 how we do this in an indigenous way. That's what 00:23:23.329 --> 00:23:25.490 we started. And then eventually that led to the 00:23:25.490 --> 00:23:28.990 MDiv program, Master of Divinity Indigenous, 00:23:30.630 --> 00:23:33.670 that sort of was, it wasn't, it was one of the 00:23:33.670 --> 00:23:37.299 first They're so commonplace now, but it was 00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:41.960 one of the first non -residency required degrees, 00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:46.180 master degree degrees in Canada and in the United 00:23:46.180 --> 00:23:48.339 States, I think. You didn't have to be here all 00:23:48.339 --> 00:23:51.079 the time. The summer school was the only time 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:54.000 we came together, two weeks out of the year. 00:23:55.500 --> 00:23:59.299 And then you were taught through distance. Right. 00:23:59.529 --> 00:24:01.930 Now we take it for granted, because you and I 00:24:01.930 --> 00:24:05.609 are talking on Zoom. But in those days, they'd 00:24:05.609 --> 00:24:08.769 box up some cassette tapes, or some VHS tapes, 00:24:09.069 --> 00:24:12.309 or some DVDs, and they'd ship them to the person. 00:24:12.349 --> 00:24:15.809 And the person would watch those with a mentor 00:24:15.809 --> 00:24:18.490 that was appointed to them that lived close to 00:24:18.490 --> 00:24:22.930 them. And they would work through these programs. 00:24:23.130 --> 00:24:26.630 And then they would get an earned Master of Divinity. 00:24:26.650 --> 00:24:30.740 That was the goal. So that's what we're doing. 00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:36.099 So then my program, the Indigenous Studies program, 00:24:36.140 --> 00:24:39.779 continues to respond to communities how they 00:24:39.779 --> 00:24:45.500 think they need. Most communities understand 00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:51.079 what they need. But I don't know that most institutions 00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:59.299 actually take the time to ask or listen. I mean, 00:24:59.299 --> 00:25:01.660 I'm sure everybody does, I suppose, in a way, 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:04.599 but that's kind of what we're doing. That's what 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:08.420 we do. Yeah. And then we use a program that we 00:25:08.420 --> 00:25:11.000 call the teaching house that moves around to 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:15.339 go into communities. Because not everybody needs 00:25:15.339 --> 00:25:19.339 a master of divinity. Sure. Yeah. But we provide 00:25:19.339 --> 00:25:22.740 training. I've already talked about some training 00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:26.460 that usually fits in one of those three categories. 00:25:27.529 --> 00:25:30.369 We deliver that over two or three days. Right. 00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:36.750 Very cool. So what then does like indigenous 00:25:36.750 --> 00:25:40.109 theology or indigenous ways of doing theology, 00:25:40.269 --> 00:25:43.670 like what does that look like? How might it differ 00:25:43.670 --> 00:25:48.109 or how might it be similar to the way that folks 00:25:48.109 --> 00:25:50.890 like me newcomers to Canada would do theology? 00:25:52.990 --> 00:25:57.009 By and large, most theological training in Canada 00:25:57.009 --> 00:26:00.269 is still focused on the competent individual. 00:26:02.369 --> 00:26:08.470 Okay. We step back and say, how do we build capacity 00:26:08.470 --> 00:26:13.289 in the community? Okay. And when we define community, 00:26:13.529 --> 00:26:17.450 we define a geographic area, not just a church 00:26:17.450 --> 00:26:20.230 somewhere. Okay. Also, we work closely with churches. 00:26:20.349 --> 00:26:25.309 Of course, yeah. But you think about what does 00:26:25.309 --> 00:26:29.089 a community, what does it need? What kind of 00:26:29.089 --> 00:26:32.450 capacity does it think it wants to develop? And 00:26:32.450 --> 00:26:37.109 we don't think primarily in terms of just a competent 00:26:37.109 --> 00:26:41.230 individual. Most theological training, because 00:26:41.230 --> 00:26:45.549 it's so mixed up with Academy, you know, the 00:26:45.549 --> 00:26:50.210 university is all about making superstars. So 00:26:50.210 --> 00:26:53.200 we're just... We kind of don't, we don't do that. 00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.579 Or we don't, that's not the game that we're doing. 00:26:56.539 --> 00:27:02.000 Okay. And so then we think about the community. 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:05.140 We try to maintain relationship with the community. 00:27:05.700 --> 00:27:07.619 We want to provide training for people so that 00:27:07.619 --> 00:27:09.740 they don't break their connection with their 00:27:09.740 --> 00:27:13.819 community. Right. So that's one thing that's 00:27:13.819 --> 00:27:18.640 different. The other thing that's different is 00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:25.220 We just didn't presume upon that people, we were 00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:29.539 trying to make people into writing machines. 00:27:29.740 --> 00:27:35.980 So then Western society is really a textual society, 00:27:37.859 --> 00:27:43.069 but indigenous was more oral. So then we brought 00:27:43.069 --> 00:27:45.630 in things, innovations that provided people the 00:27:45.630 --> 00:27:48.930 opportunity to give oral presentations and didn't 00:27:48.930 --> 00:27:51.289 insist that they learn how to write a paper. 00:27:51.490 --> 00:27:59.190 Right. In the same way. Then we were flexible 00:27:59.190 --> 00:28:01.829 about dates because everybody, when you're living 00:28:01.829 --> 00:28:03.890 in the community, there's stuff that always is 00:28:03.890 --> 00:28:07.089 happening. Of course, yeah. So we sort of had 00:28:07.089 --> 00:28:11.130 flexible dates. And then we provide a mentor 00:28:11.130 --> 00:28:13.529 for every, we tried to provide a mentor for every 00:28:13.529 --> 00:28:16.990 student. And a mentor really is about helping 00:28:16.990 --> 00:28:19.809 them connect with what they learn in the classroom 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:23.890 with the cultural things that are going on in 00:28:23.890 --> 00:28:29.549 the community. Sure. So that's kind of. Yeah. 00:28:30.029 --> 00:28:32.349 Yeah, that's really neat. Like I think there 00:28:32.349 --> 00:28:34.869 is, I don't think I've sort of thought about 00:28:34.869 --> 00:28:36.890 it in those terms before, but I think there is 00:28:36.890 --> 00:28:39.779 a sense in which. a lot of academic institutions 00:28:39.779 --> 00:28:42.240 are, yeah, trying to create an individual that 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.599 then sometimes goes back and serves a community, 00:28:44.660 --> 00:28:46.599 but maybe that they're not connected to anymore, 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:48.539 or that they were never connected to in the first 00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:54.140 place. Yeah, so doing that formation in community 00:28:54.140 --> 00:28:58.779 feels a lot more valuable, I think. Yeah. Brian 00:28:58.779 --> 00:29:01.380 Deloria said there's like three things necessary 00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:05.200 to develop an indigenous philosophy. Okay. And 00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:07.460 I'm not sure if non -Indigenous people can develop 00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:12.039 it or not, but this is what he said. Number one, 00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:19.400 you have to accept that Indigenous ways of knowing 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:23.720 and understanding are as valid as the newcomer 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:26.839 ways, the Western way of doing things. The West 00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:32.039 is really into abstract thought, and Indigenous 00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:38.829 people are into concrete concrete kinds of things. 00:29:39.829 --> 00:29:43.809 So then you gotta accept that they're different. 00:29:44.470 --> 00:29:46.990 So part of what learning is always about learning 00:29:46.990 --> 00:29:50.410 how they're different and what difference that 00:29:50.410 --> 00:29:55.710 makes. And the second thing you need to embrace 00:29:55.710 --> 00:30:06.200 indigenous boundaries. So for example, land and 00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:08.880 story are always going to be important in doing 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.539 theological education. So how it's related to 00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:16.839 the land and how you tell that in a story. So 00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:21.900 those are indigenous boundaries. And also, that's 00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:24.240 when you have to then you end up having to talk 00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:30.980 about trauma, those kinds of numbers. And you 00:30:30.980 --> 00:30:33.380 always have to, and then you have to talk about 00:30:33.380 --> 00:30:37.559 emotions. Because in indigenous country, emotions 00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.240 are a valid way of knowing things. They're tricky, 00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:44.900 hard to interpret, but they're a valid way of 00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:49.299 understanding. Whereas in Western Academy, they 00:30:49.299 --> 00:30:52.859 tend to downplay the role of emotion. We tend 00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:55.500 to be a bit more suspicious about it. Right, 00:30:55.500 --> 00:30:57.420 you're always wanting to get beyond emotion. 00:30:59.309 --> 00:31:01.690 And then the third thing Vine Deloria says is 00:31:01.690 --> 00:31:05.289 you need to embrace Indigenous communal identity. 00:31:06.029 --> 00:31:08.509 So that's why I talk about the treaty. Because 00:31:08.509 --> 00:31:15.069 in Canada, we're all treaty people. So a friend 00:31:15.069 --> 00:31:18.789 of mine and I wrote a book called Our Home and 00:31:18.789 --> 00:31:23.349 Treaty Land. And the fact that Canada's treaty 00:31:23.349 --> 00:31:27.079 nation That's what gives Canada, on one level, 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:30.660 the right to exist is because they made treaty 00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:35.640 with Indigenous people. So then everyone who 00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:40.240 lives here and is a citizen of Canada is bound 00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:45.660 by the treaty and must acknowledge the relationship 00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:48.559 that they have with Indigenous people. You can't 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.940 be in Canada and say you have no relationship 00:31:50.940 --> 00:31:54.500 with Indigenous people. You have one. And you 00:31:54.500 --> 00:31:58.799 need to learn about it. Yeah, totally. So. Yeah. 00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.799 So in terms of like in this process of of doing 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.180 theological education a bit differently, does 00:32:08.180 --> 00:32:12.400 the like content and subject matter differ as 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:17.160 well? Or is it pretty sort of similar to to more 00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.539 like Western ways of teaching and doing theology? 00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:25.049 Well, I think that I suppose there might be, 00:32:25.150 --> 00:32:28.869 I don't know. I'm gonna say the differences that 00:32:28.869 --> 00:32:33.670 I see are the ones that I've alluded to already. 00:32:34.069 --> 00:32:40.849 It's not primarily about getting some stuff into 00:32:40.849 --> 00:32:43.049 somebody else. It's not about getting the stuff 00:32:43.049 --> 00:32:45.329 in your three ring binder. Of course, you probably 00:32:45.329 --> 00:32:48.869 don't use that. But when I was, you know, when 00:32:48.869 --> 00:32:52.220 I was taking... theology, the professor would 00:32:52.220 --> 00:32:54.960 stand up there and he would lecture from his 00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:57.339 three ring binder and then I would write it on 00:32:57.339 --> 00:32:59.960 some paper and put it into my three ring binder 00:32:59.960 --> 00:33:05.119 and that was the only education. In indigenous 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.200 content, one of the mistakes people make is they 00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:10.400 think it's primarily about curriculum. So we're 00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:12.559 just going to change the curriculum and that'll 00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:17.079 make the difference. Right. What you have to 00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:19.740 do is you have to make indigenous values and 00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:24.059 goals your values and goals. Otherwise, it's 00:33:24.059 --> 00:33:27.299 just appropriation. So even during the residential 00:33:27.299 --> 00:33:31.940 school years, teachers were told you need to 00:33:31.940 --> 00:33:34.119 use more story because that's how indigenous 00:33:34.119 --> 00:33:37.440 people learn best from story. Right. So if you're 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:39.859 just making the change by using more stories 00:33:39.859 --> 00:33:43.079 so that you can continue to further your goals 00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:48.970 and values, then you're not really helping indigenous 00:33:48.970 --> 00:33:52.130 people. You're just trying to assimilate them 00:33:52.130 --> 00:33:54.710 and you're appropriating an indigenous way of 00:33:54.710 --> 00:33:59.809 doing things in that effort. So I think that 00:33:59.809 --> 00:34:03.910 if you're actually going to do theological education 00:34:03.910 --> 00:34:06.750 different, you have to embrace indigenous values 00:34:06.750 --> 00:34:13.670 and goals, which is about strengthening the community 00:34:13.670 --> 00:34:19.760 and about understanding the relationships. So 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.199 you have to change in your character. It's about 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.880 character, not primarily about just doing some 00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:29.300 stuff. Sure. So if you really want to develop 00:34:29.300 --> 00:34:31.840 an indigenous program in a university, then you've 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:34.699 got to hire indigenous people. Totally. Yeah. 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.940 Yeah. I mean, so it goes back to that call for 00:34:37.940 --> 00:34:41.860 then like relationship and like knowing people 00:34:41.860 --> 00:34:45.230 and and and yeah, those treaties like you said 00:34:45.230 --> 00:34:47.590 that sort of bring us together because otherwise 00:34:47.590 --> 00:34:51.070 yeah we can talk about different things or we 00:34:51.070 --> 00:34:53.849 can maybe try and do things differently but like 00:34:53.849 --> 00:34:56.690 you said if we're not in order to make the goals 00:34:56.690 --> 00:34:59.090 and values of indigenous people my goals and 00:34:59.090 --> 00:35:01.670 values I need to be in relationship with indigenous 00:35:01.670 --> 00:35:11.809 people yes yeah so that's gonna so it's not primarily 00:35:11.809 --> 00:35:14.159 but there's got to be a shift So those other 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:16.500 things I talked about, that's all got to be a 00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:18.539 part of it. So then the Vancouver School of Theology, 00:35:18.619 --> 00:35:20.800 when they went to develop an indigenous studies 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.599 program, then they would bring in, they tried 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:27.539 to bring in indigenous instructors, when at all 00:35:27.539 --> 00:35:31.679 possible, to teach. Sometimes it was similar 00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:34.940 courses, but sometimes they were just kind of 00:35:34.940 --> 00:35:41.119 innovative differences. And then they tried to... 00:35:43.110 --> 00:35:46.349 make sure that this is all about Indigenous community. 00:35:47.909 --> 00:35:52.550 And teach to do it with Indigenous people. When 00:35:52.550 --> 00:35:56.150 they could, they've hired an Indigenous director 00:35:56.150 --> 00:36:01.289 of the program, so that's me. And then, if at 00:36:01.289 --> 00:36:03.570 all possible, I try to hire Indigenous people 00:36:03.570 --> 00:36:08.889 to do the teaching. And we try to do it to Indigenous 00:36:08.889 --> 00:36:13.989 people. Make sense? That's kind of what we were. 00:36:14.690 --> 00:36:20.150 Yeah. So if you think about sort of outside of 00:36:20.150 --> 00:36:24.010 academic institutions and back into local churches, 00:36:24.170 --> 00:36:27.469 like what does it look like for local churches, 00:36:27.690 --> 00:36:29.389 especially churches that don't have a lot of 00:36:29.389 --> 00:36:32.550 indigenous people in them, to participate in 00:36:32.550 --> 00:36:43.840 truth and reconciliation? I remember back when 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:54.159 the Oka crisis came, I was teaching 1990. So 00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:58.400 that would have been, that was part way through. 00:36:58.539 --> 00:37:03.380 I was leading an indigenous church in Regina, 00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:12.519 but I had lots of younger folk who were. I don't 00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:14.159 know, they used to hang out with me, I don't 00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:17.199 know why. They were not indigenous, but they 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:19.960 used to hang out. So we'd do stuff together. 00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:25.280 And I remember one young guy was working, I think 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:28.000 it was in a hotel in Saskatchewan working the 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.980 front desk. Or maybe he was working in the bar, 00:37:32.219 --> 00:37:38.760 I can't remember. But he just asked me. what 00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.380 could he do because people, he'd be working and 00:37:41.380 --> 00:37:43.219 people would say all kinds of negative things 00:37:43.219 --> 00:37:45.460 about indigenous people. This was a common thing. 00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:51.000 Sure. And I remember one time I talked to him, 00:37:51.019 --> 00:37:55.139 I says, you know, sometime you could just politely 00:37:55.139 --> 00:37:57.840 say to people when they're saying rude things 00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:01.260 about indigenous people. You could just point 00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:06.289 out that maybe it's not that simple. So then 00:38:06.289 --> 00:38:08.449 while I know for you he told me story a while 00:38:08.449 --> 00:38:11.190 later that he was in working and someone was 00:38:11.190 --> 00:38:13.909 just they were doing a report on the oka crisis 00:38:13.909 --> 00:38:17.289 and they were just this person was just Saying 00:38:17.289 --> 00:38:20.789 on digits people all they do is complain. What 00:38:20.789 --> 00:38:24.090 are they doing? and all he said this young guy 00:38:24.090 --> 00:38:29.630 just said He said Excuse me, sir. I think it's 00:38:29.630 --> 00:38:32.670 more complicated than that. I think it's more 00:38:32.670 --> 00:38:35.269 complicated than what you're saying it is Yeah. 00:38:35.389 --> 00:38:37.610 And the person stopped. He didn't argue with 00:38:37.610 --> 00:38:40.670 them. Sure. So I think one thing you can do is 00:38:40.670 --> 00:38:44.630 just in society, when people say things that 00:38:44.630 --> 00:38:46.889 just aren't true, just to say, excuse me, I don't 00:38:46.889 --> 00:38:51.590 think that's true. Yeah. I don't think that's 00:38:51.590 --> 00:38:53.369 the way it is. I think it's more complicated 00:38:53.369 --> 00:39:01.650 than that. And then also to take part in the 00:39:01.650 --> 00:39:08.190 celebrations. So digit people, I don't know where 00:39:08.190 --> 00:39:11.469 you're living, if you're in Mississauga or wherever 00:39:11.469 --> 00:39:14.530 you are. But you know, there's a mall, it's near, 00:39:14.630 --> 00:39:19.170 what station is it? What mall is that? In Toronto. 00:39:20.230 --> 00:39:22.829 There's a park across from, oh, it's just off 00:39:22.829 --> 00:39:25.690 of, oh, I can't remember the name of the station. 00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:30.780 Anyways, there's this one park in Toronto where 00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:33.079 every September they have a little powwow, an 00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:36.159 urban power. At least, I've been to it one time. 00:39:36.860 --> 00:39:39.320 You know, powwows, celebrations that Indigenous 00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:43.039 communities have, those are for everybody, not 00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:46.159 just Indigenous people. And sometimes, you know, 00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:48.639 people think, oh, I can't go to that because 00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:51.519 it's Indigenous. No, if Indigenous people advertise 00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:54.019 something, it's because they want everybody to 00:39:54.019 --> 00:39:59.739 go. Just go. You celebrate together, whatever 00:39:59.739 --> 00:40:03.760 it is. We will celebrate any victory, no matter 00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:08.980 how small, just celebrate. And sometimes there's 00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:13.239 protests, things that are helpful. I don't believe 00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:16.000 in the violent ones. And there is a point maybe 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.699 when, you know, all you're doing is pissing people 00:40:18.699 --> 00:40:21.079 off. And I'm not sure how helpful that is. Maybe 00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.280 it is. I don't know. I've never been big on that. 00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:28.590 But, you know, in Vancouver, They had a march 00:40:28.590 --> 00:40:35.190 for reconciliation. I think the first one, thousands 00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:38.909 of people showed up. And it was overly, and it 00:40:38.909 --> 00:40:47.449 helped to strengthen the community. The women 00:40:47.449 --> 00:40:50.489 who staged those, you know those, they had those 00:40:50.489 --> 00:40:54.050 flash mobs, it was drum. They would do this flash 00:40:54.050 --> 00:40:59.349 mob round dance in all the malls. That did something. 00:40:59.570 --> 00:41:02.369 Yeah. It reminded people. Our march is about, 00:41:03.289 --> 00:41:07.130 I think those things are helpful. Because I think 00:41:07.130 --> 00:41:09.929 if we draw attention to those who are marginalized, 00:41:10.030 --> 00:41:14.389 that helps everybody. Totally. Yeah. So if we 00:41:14.389 --> 00:41:17.030 can do those things, those are good. Yeah. Always 00:41:17.030 --> 00:41:22.449 been good. And then another kind of thing that 00:41:22.449 --> 00:41:28.829 we could do is Or the best thing is just to engage 00:41:28.829 --> 00:41:33.349 anywhere you have a chance. If people put out 00:41:33.349 --> 00:41:35.590 a call for some help to do some stuff, then go 00:41:35.590 --> 00:41:41.590 and help. I just think that's what changes you. 00:41:42.869 --> 00:41:45.789 Yeah. Yeah, it goes back to that relationship 00:41:45.789 --> 00:41:49.909 and community, right? And then you could go for 00:41:49.909 --> 00:41:54.909 a walk, visit sites where stuff happened. because 00:41:54.909 --> 00:41:57.030 sometimes you visit sites and you get a better 00:41:57.030 --> 00:41:59.429 understanding of what's going on. You can learn 00:41:59.429 --> 00:42:03.789 the history. You know, like in Niagara Falls, 00:42:03.849 --> 00:42:07.170 I always got a kick out of that. So it's in Niagara 00:42:07.170 --> 00:42:09.429 Falls. There's a friend of mine who lives down 00:42:09.429 --> 00:42:12.150 there. He's not indigenous, but he grew up there. 00:42:12.929 --> 00:42:16.670 So then they have this huge monument to the guy 00:42:16.670 --> 00:42:21.880 who led, I think, The War of 1812, you know, 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.860 because Brock is his name. Yeah, I think so. 00:42:24.940 --> 00:42:28.900 Yeah. They have this huge monument to him. And 00:42:28.900 --> 00:42:31.800 they have a little statue of Laura Secord, because, 00:42:31.900 --> 00:42:35.420 you know, she warned that the British were coming 00:42:35.420 --> 00:42:40.159 and the Americans are coming. And but the people 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.059 who were instrumental in the whole victory and 00:42:43.059 --> 00:42:45.119 helping Laura Secord get to where she wanted 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:49.849 to go was the Mohawks. There's no monument to 00:42:49.849 --> 00:42:54.530 them there. But there was, when I was there, 00:42:54.789 --> 00:42:58.969 someone had built this little stick sort of monument. 00:43:00.309 --> 00:43:06.050 And it was to the Haudenosaunee who helped, who 00:43:06.050 --> 00:43:09.110 were instrumental in all of this. I mean, the 00:43:09.110 --> 00:43:11.469 reason Canada won the War of 1812 is because 00:43:11.469 --> 00:43:14.309 the Mohawks were with them and the Americans 00:43:14.309 --> 00:43:19.250 were terrified of the Mohawks. Yeah. And that's 00:43:19.250 --> 00:43:24.250 why they gave up. After hardly any shooting goes, 00:43:24.429 --> 00:43:27.690 the Americans give up because they are terrified 00:43:27.690 --> 00:43:30.670 of the Haudenosaunee. But you got to learn that 00:43:30.670 --> 00:43:35.329 history, you see. Right. If you just go by what 00:43:35.329 --> 00:43:37.690 there's plaques people put up, you don't know 00:43:37.690 --> 00:43:40.309 that. Yeah. But learn history from the people 00:43:40.309 --> 00:43:44.989 so you can do that. What I learned, Jacques Aloul 00:43:44.989 --> 00:43:48.460 said, I like him. He's a French philosopher. 00:43:48.579 --> 00:43:51.559 He's part of the French resistance during the 00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:54.460 Second World War. He's a contemporary with Dietrich 00:43:54.460 --> 00:43:58.380 Bonhoeffer and others. And he said, at some point, 00:43:58.460 --> 00:44:01.440 you have to make a decision. Who are you going 00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:04.739 to side with? Are you going to side with marginalized 00:44:04.739 --> 00:44:08.460 folks and groups to help further their agenda? 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:14.000 Are you just going to side with the powers that 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:17.530 be? Because at some point you're gonna face a 00:44:17.530 --> 00:44:19.750 decision you're gonna be in a situation where 00:44:19.750 --> 00:44:22.869 the all of the things you learn like pros and 00:44:22.869 --> 00:44:25.949 cons That's not gonna help you. You just have 00:44:25.949 --> 00:44:30.329 to make a decision And I tell people you need 00:44:30.329 --> 00:44:34.030 to have it made it up your mind that when push 00:44:34.030 --> 00:44:38.429 comes to shove I will side with marginalized 00:44:38.429 --> 00:44:42.550 folks Even if when I don't understand it completely 00:44:42.889 --> 00:44:49.130 I'm gonna side with marginalized people. To me, 00:44:50.409 --> 00:44:56.769 that's what it is to be human. And that's freedom. 00:44:59.429 --> 00:45:04.250 To just say my goal isn't the most efficient 00:45:04.250 --> 00:45:08.780 society. I'm going to choose human beings and 00:45:08.780 --> 00:45:12.559 we're terribly inefficient and take way too much 00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:15.920 time. Sure. And we don't do anything the way 00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.659 that industry would like us to do things. But 00:45:18.659 --> 00:45:23.980 I am going to suck human beings. Yeah. Yeah. 00:45:24.579 --> 00:45:28.320 Yeah. It's it's when you sort of put it in that 00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:31.380 way, like it seems like a really simple choice 00:45:31.380 --> 00:45:33.920 and it seems like a really straightforward. Like, 00:45:33.980 --> 00:45:36.059 yeah, of course, that's, that's the thing to 00:45:36.059 --> 00:45:39.440 choose. I think it, we complicate it sometimes. 00:45:40.539 --> 00:45:44.219 Oh, and it's, and it's hard. It's not easy. If 00:45:44.219 --> 00:45:46.460 you're, if you're people who are listening to 00:45:46.460 --> 00:45:48.539 this, if they want to check something out, I, 00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:51.400 the thing that the thing, one of the things that 00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:55.139 happened to me, like back when I was, I was working 00:45:55.139 --> 00:45:57.760 in the church and those days I was working in 00:45:57.760 --> 00:45:59.639 the Christian missionary Alliance, which is the 00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:06.300 Evangelical Church. I watched a documentary called, 00:46:06.300 --> 00:46:09.880 uh, Noam Chomsky in the media, manufacturing 00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:13.619 consent. Okay. And it's, and it was just about 00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:20.019 how our media and really, uh, he was writing 00:46:20.019 --> 00:46:24.179 in like the, during the Vietnam war years, our 00:46:24.179 --> 00:46:27.980 media will only really, they, they put forward 00:46:27.980 --> 00:46:34.389 the stuff that supports the status quo. And I 00:46:34.389 --> 00:46:37.130 thought about that and I thought, hey, the church 00:46:37.130 --> 00:46:41.469 does that too. It's not a conspiracy thing. He 00:46:41.469 --> 00:46:43.150 said, he kept saying this is not a conspiracy. 00:46:43.289 --> 00:46:47.449 It's just what we do. We can only see the world. 00:46:47.809 --> 00:46:50.829 Now I'm using another person about paradigms. 00:46:50.929 --> 00:46:53.010 We can only see the world through the world that 00:46:53.010 --> 00:46:56.269 we have known. So then we are gonna try, we're 00:46:56.269 --> 00:46:59.349 gonna end up reading things a certain way. Sure. 00:47:00.269 --> 00:47:07.630 And it's not easy to shift. So. Yeah. So I think 00:47:07.630 --> 00:47:09.570 about a couple of the things that you said, you 00:47:09.570 --> 00:47:13.690 know, uncovering some of that hidden history 00:47:13.690 --> 00:47:16.809 about Indigenous peoples' roles in some of these 00:47:16.809 --> 00:47:19.889 events that we mark in Canadian history, or about 00:47:19.889 --> 00:47:22.769 when you're hearing some conversation and saying, 00:47:22.809 --> 00:47:25.070 well, maybe it's more complicated than that. 00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:27.920 I think some folks will say, well, that that 00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:30.260 sounds good. But like, where do I even get started? 00:47:30.340 --> 00:47:33.139 How do I know that it's more complicated than 00:47:33.139 --> 00:47:37.320 that? So do you have some places that you might 00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:39.900 point people to just like start to learn more, 00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:45.300 to educate themselves a little bit? Let's see. 00:47:46.900 --> 00:47:49.480 One of the ones that comes to mind is Robert 00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:55.829 Joseph, Chief Robert Joseph. OK. He is. he wrote 00:47:55.829 --> 00:48:05.409 a book called let's see chief robert joseph books 00:48:05.409 --> 00:48:14.010 here he goes uh he wrote a book about a pathway 00:48:14.010 --> 00:48:16.949 to reconciliation okay that's one that's out 00:48:16.949 --> 00:48:26.329 i thought there was another book about The Indian 00:48:26.329 --> 00:48:31.110 Act. Ah, there was Bob Joseph? Yeah, that's it. 00:48:31.130 --> 00:48:33.869 Same guy. Yeah, the 21 Things You Should Know 00:48:33.869 --> 00:48:35.769 About the Indian Act, I think is what that one's 00:48:35.769 --> 00:48:45.250 called. Yeah. So anything by Robert Joseph. And... 00:48:45.250 --> 00:48:48.050 The Royal Commission on Aboriginal People. Like, 00:48:48.050 --> 00:48:51.230 it's a ton of work, but there used to be a 150 00:48:51.230 --> 00:48:55.820 -page summary. of people is 4 ,000 pages. Right. 00:48:56.139 --> 00:49:00.480 That's quite a thick book. And the question was, 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:02.940 there's several volumes, but the question was, 00:49:03.059 --> 00:49:06.480 in that study, they went across Canada and said, 00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:12.280 what would it take to fix it? Right. OK, so that's 00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:16.780 one. And then the 94 calls to action, those are 00:49:16.780 --> 00:49:22.909 available online. Yep. I think what it was called, 00:49:25.130 --> 00:49:29.250 the Indian Residential School History and Dialogue 00:49:29.250 --> 00:49:33.289 Center, that's, the Indian Residential School 00:49:33.289 --> 00:49:36.329 History and Dialogue Center is at UBC, but all 00:49:36.329 --> 00:49:41.710 of their material is online. Yeah, I think you 00:49:41.710 --> 00:49:45.150 can go and hear different stories and testimonies, 00:49:45.389 --> 00:49:48.250 get history of the various schools and things 00:49:48.250 --> 00:49:51.699 like that. So there was a center that was struck. 00:49:51.820 --> 00:49:54.980 There was a fund that developed. It was after 00:49:54.980 --> 00:49:57.840 the statement on reconciliation. Jane Stewart 00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:02.500 made it in 98. And they set up this healing fund. 00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:05.760 And they produced a bunch of good literature 00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:09.260 and it's online too. The Canadian government 00:50:09.260 --> 00:50:11.139 actually, one of the good things that they do 00:50:11.139 --> 00:50:14.199 is that they host all this stuff and it's online 00:50:14.199 --> 00:50:18.619 and it's free to download. And there's good stuff 00:50:18.619 --> 00:50:23.420 there. Yeah. So that's one of the things government 00:50:23.420 --> 00:50:29.300 does well. That's good. Yeah. And then if you 00:50:29.300 --> 00:50:32.639 can, we talked about going to powwow. Yeah. Going 00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:34.960 to a ceremony. If they're an open ceremony, if 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:39.400 people are advertising it, then go learn. And 00:50:39.400 --> 00:50:44.929 then also, just look. I mean, Francis Schaeffer, 00:50:44.989 --> 00:50:47.190 and I agree with him, there's kind of these four 00:50:47.190 --> 00:50:51.010 kinds of relationships in the world. Okay. There's 00:50:51.010 --> 00:50:53.250 the relationship that an individual has with 00:50:53.250 --> 00:50:56.530 themselves. There's a relationship that someone 00:50:56.530 --> 00:51:00.909 has with their group and then that group with 00:51:00.909 --> 00:51:04.949 other groups. There's a relationship that people 00:51:04.949 --> 00:51:09.090 have with the land. And ultimately, there's a 00:51:09.090 --> 00:51:12.250 relationship on ultimately there is a relationship 00:51:12.250 --> 00:51:20.360 with creator and spiritual, the spiritual. Do 00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:24.619 something to impact one of those relationships 00:51:24.619 --> 00:51:28.500 in a healing way. I don't think it matters which 00:51:28.500 --> 00:51:34.119 area you start with. But once a person is on 00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:38.900 the path to healing, true healing, will end up 00:51:38.900 --> 00:51:42.159 leading you into all of those other relationships. 00:51:42.260 --> 00:51:46.539 Sure. As you work through those things. And that's 00:51:46.539 --> 00:51:52.980 good for everybody. So if you want to be a person 00:51:52.980 --> 00:51:57.880 of peace, then you should work on your stuff. 00:51:58.659 --> 00:52:02.820 Not exclusively, because you can, you know, the 00:52:02.820 --> 00:52:05.099 thing about working on our stuff is sometimes, 00:52:05.219 --> 00:52:07.460 you know, that Henry now and said there's this 00:52:09.130 --> 00:52:12.769 In the center of most of us, just because of 00:52:12.769 --> 00:52:18.010 our wounded, who we are, is an abyss. If we step 00:52:18.010 --> 00:52:21.590 into that hole, there's no bottom. What we're 00:52:21.590 --> 00:52:23.250 trying to do is we're trying to dance around 00:52:23.250 --> 00:52:26.989 the edges. And so we work on our stuff and as 00:52:26.989 --> 00:52:29.489 we dance around the edges, we find some healing. 00:52:30.170 --> 00:52:33.750 And like in the 12th step of the 12 steps, you 00:52:33.750 --> 00:52:37.269 have found help, go help somebody else. Right. 00:52:37.869 --> 00:52:44.070 So that's why I say just work to be a positive 00:52:44.070 --> 00:52:47.889 healing influence in one of your relationships 00:52:47.889 --> 00:52:52.510 and they'll lead to the other ones. Right. Yeah. 00:52:53.190 --> 00:52:57.460 So. Sounds like good advice. And it fits with 00:52:57.460 --> 00:53:01.219 the gospel for Sunday. Yes. Sunday, you know, 00:53:01.260 --> 00:53:04.360 the one who is faithful in little things will 00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:08.239 be faithful in big things. But one who's dishonest 00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:10.699 in little things, they're going to be dishonest 00:53:10.699 --> 00:53:15.760 in big things. Yeah. Anyways, yeah, probably 00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:18.420 a good place to quit. Yeah, yeah. No, do you 00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:20.960 have any other comments or questions, things 00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:24.280 you wanted to leave us with? Just at the artwork 00:53:24.280 --> 00:53:27.300 behind me, that's my daughter's artwork. Okay, 00:53:27.539 --> 00:53:29.539 very cool. If you're interested in her artwork, 00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:35.000 check out Kat, C -A -T -A -L -D -R -E -D. You 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:37.780 can find her on Facebook. Okay, very cool. She 00:53:37.780 --> 00:53:43.440 has a Squarespace. If you're into art. Yeah, 00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:48.059 it looks great. Well, thank you so much, Ray. 00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:50.320 This has been a really helpful conversation, 00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:53.980 I think, to give us... some grounding in Canadian 00:53:53.980 --> 00:53:58.519 history, but also some grounding in the work 00:53:58.519 --> 00:54:00.579 that you and other Indigenous folks are doing 00:54:00.579 --> 00:54:04.280 in trying to bring about healing and reconciliation 00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:07.880 that ripples far beyond indigenous communities, 00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:12.119 I think. It impacts all of us. So thank you so 00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:14.059 much for taking this time for this conversation. 00:54:14.380 --> 00:54:16.920 Thank you for joining us for this week's episode 00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:20.179 of Trinity Talks. I hope that in all of what 00:54:20.179 --> 00:54:22.380 we have been discussing that you have been able 00:54:22.380 --> 00:54:26.159 to find some next steps in healing in relationships, 00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:29.239 whether that is... your own healing, your healing 00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:31.579 with the relationships with other people or the 00:54:31.579 --> 00:54:34.699 land or with creator. Whatever it is that you 00:54:34.699 --> 00:54:38.039 need, I pray that you can go forth in that and 00:54:38.039 --> 00:54:40.619 bring about more truth and reconciliation in 00:54:40.619 --> 00:54:43.000 our lives today. And we'll see you next week.