Thank you for joining us for this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm excited
to be sitting down today with Ray Aldred, who
is an indigenous theologian and a professor at
the Vancouver School of Theology. And we're going
to be talking a little bit about truth and reconciliation,
and in particular, what this National Day of
Truth and Reconciliation means for us in Canada
and for us as followers of Christ. And so thank
you for joining me, Ray. It's good to be here.
Yeah, maybe you can start by just telling us
a little bit about your story and what led you
into your work as a pastor and as a theologian.
Well, I was born in northern Alberta around Grand
Prairie. My mom was from the Swan River territory,
Swan River Band, which is in north of Edmonton,
about four hours. So. I grew up and experienced
all of the kind of negative attitude Canada had
against indigenous people, which was prevalent
when I was growing up. I grew up in the 60s and
70s. And back then, the only time I ever remember
anything to do with indigenous people usually
was if we were a problem to be solved. And so
that was usually how the press played it up.
So... or you grow up with this ambivalence about
your identity, you feel ashamed for who you are.
And then on the other hand, you kind of think
you hope there might be something good about
who you were. Sure, yeah. So, but no, I got into
the wrong stuff when I was younger and ended
up. having this born -again experience when I
was 19 years old, where I said to God, I said,
if you're up there, I will do anything you ask
me to if you help me quit using drugs. So then
I've been sober since then, was when I was 19.
And then I felt a call into ministry right away,
but drug addicts are megalomaniacs. So I thought
I'm not going to make these. I'm not going to
know. I'm not going to be a minister. I'm just
going to volunteer, go to church, take care of
my family. Yeah. And which meant getting married
to the woman I was living with. So we have this
born again experience on October the 1st and
then I got married on October the 13th. Wow.
We got married and we were both 19. And then
I just continued to work in the forest industry.
And then when I was 28, I thought, well, this
feeling hasn't gone away. So I'm going to go
to study theology. So I did. I was 20 years old.
Did an undergrad degree. While I was in my third
year, I started pastoring a... First Nations
Church, the First Nations Alliance Church of
Regina, Saskatchewan. And that's when I started
hearing all the stories about the residential
school. My mom didn't have to go to residential
school, but my aunties did. But I don't know,
they never talked about it. But in Regina, I
started to hear about it. And I don't know, maybe
when you're a kid you hear bad stuff and you
see bad stuff and you just block it out. Yeah,
could be. But I started to hear that and then
I started to wonder what we could do different.
Sure. And so we started to think about, I remember
in 1990, the Oka crisis. That's the first time
I remember reconciliation was like, that was
something that people, that word started to get
thrown around. Sure. Probably before that was
justice. Like what exactly is justice supposed
to be? So anyways, I ended up doing some degrees.
I've been in school forever. Okay. Anyways, I
eventually ended up in the Anglican Church. That
was later, though. But always it was about the
journey of reconciliation. So I'm going to say
that that journey really started in Canada, the
recent ones. It probably started before then,
but in 1990 when the Oka crisis happened, that's
when suddenly Canadians realized, okay, everything
isn't warm and fuzzy. Right, yeah. And there's
some stuff going on. And so then the Royal Commission
on Aboriginal People was struck and there's like
4 ,000 pages. But then in 1995, Dudley George
is killed at Hipperwash. September, 1995, I think.
And then in December, But even prior to that,
a bunch of us met in Winnipeg and we talked about
being agents of reconciliation and what that
meant. And then 1995 was Elijah Harper called
the Sacred Assembly. And there was a statement
of reconciliation that came out of that. Stuff
continued to happen. First Nations started to
take Canada to court. or residential schools.
Well, it wasn't just First Nation. Métis had
been stuck in them too, some of them. And then
1998, Canada issued a statement on reconciliation.
In the 80s, you know, different denominations
apologized. United Church, Presbyterian, eventually
the Anglicans would apologize too. And then 1998...
statement of reconciliation. And then different
things started to happen. Eventually in 2008,
Stephen Harper declares, he apologizes. He apologizes
to the survivors in the residential schools.
And then that leads to the Truth and Reconciliation
Commission. And that leads to several meetings
across Canada. This whole time people were trying
to talk. We're trying to really do three things
And they all flow out of restorative justice.
We're trying to tell the truth So you create
places that people can tell the truth. Yep, but
what really happened and you do that so that
People can hear they can listen and have it break
their heart. Yeah because unless you feel the
damage that was done, then you won't have the
emotional strength to actually change. You actually
need those negative emotions. They actually give
you the energy to change. Right. If you don't
just try to avoid them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You
need that impetus, right? Yes. And then, uh,
and then the, uh, 2000, like 2015, right? The
final report of the TRC and then since that just
talking at different places when I have the opportunity
to talk about what it would look like mm -hmm
We reconciled so tell the truth really listen
come up with a shared plan That third thing is
what we're trying to find right now. We're trying
to come up with a shared plan. Yep So yeah, I
don't know that's a long answer. No, no that
but that that's a really helpful overview. I
think Yeah, and Like, what has your sort of ministry
looked like in all of that? Yeah, how have you
sort of journeyed through that? Well, I end up
doing a variety of things, but there's kind of
three sort of things. I mean, as a theologian,
I ended up, because I did the tip. degree in
theology so that what theology I don't know I
always thought of theology trying to provide
eloquent solutions to sort of things okay not
solutions but ways forward maybe sure you kind
of give people a theological support for some
movements that need to happen and you also need
to critique popular theology because these popular
ideas spring up that aren't very helpful yep
When it comes to people who have suffered abuse,
one of the things that doesn't help people is
telling them they just need to forgive. Like
that doesn't help anybody. Or that they just
need to love, or that they just need a deeper
spiritual experience or something. That doesn't
help anybody. So you have to try to help people
develop a theology that fits better where they
find themselves. Sure. So I tried to do that
in developing a better theology of creation.
Okay. And showing that really salvation and reconciliation
are all about what have always been God's plan
for creation. God's plan for creation is to move
from, you know, the initial immaturity of creation
to a point when creator and creation meet in
perfect harmony. And we see that in Jesus Christ,
who is fully God, so creator, fully human, so
creation. In Christ, creator and creation meet
in perfect harmony. So then following like the
early theologians, Irenaeus, for example, uh
what christ does is sets creation back on the
right path again and so then all of ministry
really fits within joining creator on this path
of creation right just seeing all things reconciled
creator and creation made in perfect harmony
i did that because uh We weren't developing a
real good theology for why we need to work against
climate change. Sure. And we also weren't figuring
things why it's bad to damage the earth. So then
one of the things that we were doing was you
got to heal the land. So then thinking through
that, but that also involved healing the land
also involved things like having a process to
help communities who find unmarked graves. And
that happens in almost every indigenous community
around the world. Sure. So then, and work towards,
you know, food security that fits under, that
fits under, deal the land. And then the other
kinds of things that we're doing was to help
people develop their emotional literacy or their
emotional intelligence by helping doing some
training around trauma. OK. So when it comes
to, again, because of abuse and trauma, what
happens is, and because it's ongoing, we need
to have some better coping strategies. Sure.
Like if you think about it, using drugs and alcohol
as a coping strategy, the reason people do that
is because it works for a time. It's like medicine.
It does what it's supposed to do. But it gets
out of control. So we need a better coping strategy.
So we developed a program called Enanamoen with
Rochelle's... Mom came up with that word. And
in Oji Kri, their language, it means the feelings
that we have in our heart. So we tried to do
some training where people could build, we tried
to give people the tools to create a small group
where people could talk about what was really
going on inside. And so then teaching people,
so then the work of reconciliation was to teach
people how to be good listeners. Right. And then
help people that could help people work through
the pain in their soul. Right. Modern Western
society lies to people. And it says that you
can do it all by yourself. You can't. Yeah, nobody.
Nobody can. Independence is I suppose a step.
Everybody when they're growing up becomes, you
know, you go through this independent stage where
you gotta kind of launch out on your own for
a time. But it's really, maturity is learning
to be dependent upon others. So, and emotional
intelligence is just helping people develop ways
that they could listen to others. Excuse me.
So workshops about suicide prevention, again,
coping strategies in midst of trauma, grieving
seminars, a variety of things, all kinds of stuff
like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like that all
feels really important. And I think like it feels
helpful to me that you've like grounded it really
well, you know, that it's not just It's not just
about feelings although the feelings are important
like it's also about you know the connection
to land and about the connection to God and to
other people and I think all of that helps bring
it together really well And the third kind of
thing we do is trying to Create a theology and
we're trying to write a new story for Canada
because the old one doesn't work all the time
sure I mean, I remember there was this little
vignette that was around just around the end
of Stephen Harper's time. He used to go to the
theater and they'd have these little vignettes
before the movie. And I remember one of them
when I was living in Calgary was they had, they
just found these, the wreckage of that Explorer.
Oh, what was his name? He was an Arctic Explorer,
Franklin. Oh, yes. So then remember they found
They found that guy's boat. Mm -hmm all his boat
was sunk and all of his men died and yeah, and
they tell that story we found this boat and then
they at the end they'd say Canada a Nation of
explorers and I thought yeah get lost and die
like What kind of a story is that? Yeah, but
the whole idea that Canada was made simply by
some newcomers is crazy. The story of Canada
is that we made treaty with the newcomers. And
treaty really is becoming relatives. We're affirming
that everybody, indigenous people, and it was
indigenous treaty that Canada was founded upon.
That everyone should have the right or the privilege
of a peaceful existence. That everybody should
have access to the land. That everybody should
be able to eat from the common bowl, as the Haudenosaunee
put it. Right. And that adds up to people and
groups of people should be able to be who they
were created to be. Right. But we live like relatives.
That was the plan. That's the plan that's always
been in Canada. is from Indigenous people. So
Canada has always been a project of Indigenous
and newcomers. It's always been that way. So
that's the other kind of thing that you do to
remind people of how we actually came to be here
together in this space. And so we can cast a
vision for unity that doesn't devolve into little
sectarian groups like this denomination or that
denomination. understanding that it's about the
fact that creators put us here and our job is
to that the earth to draw forth when the earth
what's best and to draw forth from one another
what's best that's really about yeah so that's
kind of the three kinds of things i end up doing
yeah no that's very cool um so Where does your
work with the Vancouver School of Theology sort
of fit into that? You're doing this indigenous
studies program. So what does that look like?
And how is that different from other sort of
theological education programs? Well, the whole
thing started goes back to well, I don't know
when it started, but I'm going to say it starts
with. The cry from Indigenous people for self
-determination is muffled in Canada until about
the 1970s, well, probably in the late 1950s,
early 1960s. So then there's a law prior to that
that says that Indigenous people can't, you're
not allowed to raise money to take the Canadian
government to court, not until the late 50s.
But in the late 50s and 60s, and then in the
late 60s, 1969, around there, there's a whole
bunch of things that happen that sort of mark
this. It's sort of a significant point because
in the United States, Vine Deloria, whose Episcopal
says, we need more real involvement in the church.
Indigenous people need more real involvement.
And in Canada, there's a guy by the name of Henry
writes a report on what the Anglican Church has
been doing. And he says the same thing. He says
Anglican Church in Canada needs to stop treating
indigenous people like their children. They need
to rethink everything that they do. And both
in Canada and the United States, there's a group
of people who meet. It's called the Indian Ecumenical
Conference. The first one was either in Montana,
and they meet, and what they say is that you
need to make sure that you make space for indigenous
spirituality, that it's important in its own
right. And so then they call on the church to
do that. And they call, so then out of that,
They have several more meetings. I think they
meet for 15 years. Eventually after the first
one, they end up in Morley, Alberta, which is
the Stony Nakoda territory. A guy by the name
of Chief John Snow, he's critical and all that.
But these different, Frank Thomas, Terry Anderson
had just passed. Frank Thomas, I think is Cherokee,
and Terry Anderson was just, you know, a newcomer
from Canada, his family had grown up in Canada.
And he was teaching at the Vancouver School of
Theology. So out of this, one of the things that
develops is all these different Indigenous voices
talking about holding together Indigenous spirituality,
Christian faith. Out of that comes a call for
the Vancouver School of Theology to be a place
where Indigenous people could come together and
talk about how they do that, how they hold together
Indigenous faith and Christianity, Indigenous
identity and Christian faith. So the program
starts in 1984. Because one thing that's not
happening is Indigenous people aren't getting
ordained to the same rate as non -Indigenous
people. Because the whole process is primarily
about, you know, people who, white, not white,
but newcomer, Euro -Canadian people who, you
know, grew up in cities and stuff, and that the
whole thing is premised around a certain kind
of person that didn't fit Indigenous people.
Sure. So, the call came for the Vancouver School
of Theology to order build a program where indigenous
people could study and be affirmed to be clergy,
to be ordained in an indigenous way. But would
end up with the credentials necessary to be ordained
in different mainline denominations. So that's
how the program started in 1984. We just celebrated
our 40th summer school. Yeah, that's awesome.
So then every summer they'd come together and
courses were provided that tried to figure out
how we do this in an indigenous way. That's what
we started. And then eventually that led to the
MDiv program, Master of Divinity Indigenous,
that sort of was, it wasn't, it was one of the
first They're so commonplace now, but it was
one of the first non -residency required degrees,
master degree degrees in Canada and in the United
States, I think. You didn't have to be here all
the time. The summer school was the only time
we came together, two weeks out of the year.
And then you were taught through distance. Right.
Now we take it for granted, because you and I
are talking on Zoom. But in those days, they'd
box up some cassette tapes, or some VHS tapes,
or some DVDs, and they'd ship them to the person.
And the person would watch those with a mentor
that was appointed to them that lived close to
them. And they would work through these programs.
And then they would get an earned Master of Divinity.
That was the goal. So that's what we're doing.
So then my program, the Indigenous Studies program,
continues to respond to communities how they
think they need. Most communities understand
what they need. But I don't know that most institutions
actually take the time to ask or listen. I mean,
I'm sure everybody does, I suppose, in a way,
but that's kind of what we're doing. That's what
we do. Yeah. And then we use a program that we
call the teaching house that moves around to
go into communities. Because not everybody needs
a master of divinity. Sure. Yeah. But we provide
training. I've already talked about some training
that usually fits in one of those three categories.
We deliver that over two or three days. Right.
Very cool. So what then does like indigenous
theology or indigenous ways of doing theology,
like what does that look like? How might it differ
or how might it be similar to the way that folks
like me newcomers to Canada would do theology?
By and large, most theological training in Canada
is still focused on the competent individual.
Okay. We step back and say, how do we build capacity
in the community? Okay. And when we define community,
we define a geographic area, not just a church
somewhere. Okay. Also, we work closely with churches.
Of course, yeah. But you think about what does
a community, what does it need? What kind of
capacity does it think it wants to develop? And
we don't think primarily in terms of just a competent
individual. Most theological training, because
it's so mixed up with Academy, you know, the
university is all about making superstars. So
we're just... We kind of don't, we don't do that.
Or we don't, that's not the game that we're doing.
Okay. And so then we think about the community.
We try to maintain relationship with the community.
We want to provide training for people so that
they don't break their connection with their
community. Right. So that's one thing that's
different. The other thing that's different is
We just didn't presume upon that people, we were
trying to make people into writing machines.
So then Western society is really a textual society,
but indigenous was more oral. So then we brought
in things, innovations that provided people the
opportunity to give oral presentations and didn't
insist that they learn how to write a paper.
Right. In the same way. Then we were flexible
about dates because everybody, when you're living
in the community, there's stuff that always is
happening. Of course, yeah. So we sort of had
flexible dates. And then we provide a mentor
for every, we tried to provide a mentor for every
student. And a mentor really is about helping
them connect with what they learn in the classroom
with the cultural things that are going on in
the community. Sure. So that's kind of. Yeah.
Yeah, that's really neat. Like I think there
is, I don't think I've sort of thought about
it in those terms before, but I think there is
a sense in which. a lot of academic institutions
are, yeah, trying to create an individual that
then sometimes goes back and serves a community,
but maybe that they're not connected to anymore,
or that they were never connected to in the first
place. Yeah, so doing that formation in community
feels a lot more valuable, I think. Yeah. Brian
Deloria said there's like three things necessary
to develop an indigenous philosophy. Okay. And
I'm not sure if non -Indigenous people can develop
it or not, but this is what he said. Number one,
you have to accept that Indigenous ways of knowing
and understanding are as valid as the newcomer
ways, the Western way of doing things. The West
is really into abstract thought, and Indigenous
people are into concrete concrete kinds of things.
So then you gotta accept that they're different.
So part of what learning is always about learning
how they're different and what difference that
makes. And the second thing you need to embrace
indigenous boundaries. So for example, land and
story are always going to be important in doing
theological education. So how it's related to
the land and how you tell that in a story. So
those are indigenous boundaries. And also, that's
when you have to then you end up having to talk
about trauma, those kinds of numbers. And you
always have to, and then you have to talk about
emotions. Because in indigenous country, emotions
are a valid way of knowing things. They're tricky,
hard to interpret, but they're a valid way of
understanding. Whereas in Western Academy, they
tend to downplay the role of emotion. We tend
to be a bit more suspicious about it. Right,
you're always wanting to get beyond emotion.
And then the third thing Vine Deloria says is
you need to embrace Indigenous communal identity.
So that's why I talk about the treaty. Because
in Canada, we're all treaty people. So a friend
of mine and I wrote a book called Our Home and
Treaty Land. And the fact that Canada's treaty
nation That's what gives Canada, on one level,
the right to exist is because they made treaty
with Indigenous people. So then everyone who
lives here and is a citizen of Canada is bound
by the treaty and must acknowledge the relationship
that they have with Indigenous people. You can't
be in Canada and say you have no relationship
with Indigenous people. You have one. And you
need to learn about it. Yeah, totally. So. Yeah.
So in terms of like in this process of of doing
theological education a bit differently, does
the like content and subject matter differ as
well? Or is it pretty sort of similar to to more
like Western ways of teaching and doing theology?
Well, I think that I suppose there might be,
I don't know. I'm gonna say the differences that
I see are the ones that I've alluded to already.
It's not primarily about getting some stuff into
somebody else. It's not about getting the stuff
in your three ring binder. Of course, you probably
don't use that. But when I was, you know, when
I was taking... theology, the professor would
stand up there and he would lecture from his
three ring binder and then I would write it on
some paper and put it into my three ring binder
and that was the only education. In indigenous
content, one of the mistakes people make is they
think it's primarily about curriculum. So we're
just going to change the curriculum and that'll
make the difference. Right. What you have to
do is you have to make indigenous values and
goals your values and goals. Otherwise, it's
just appropriation. So even during the residential
school years, teachers were told you need to
use more story because that's how indigenous
people learn best from story. Right. So if you're
just making the change by using more stories
so that you can continue to further your goals
and values, then you're not really helping indigenous
people. You're just trying to assimilate them
and you're appropriating an indigenous way of
doing things in that effort. So I think that
if you're actually going to do theological education
different, you have to embrace indigenous values
and goals, which is about strengthening the community
and about understanding the relationships. So
you have to change in your character. It's about
character, not primarily about just doing some
stuff. Sure. So if you really want to develop
an indigenous program in a university, then you've
got to hire indigenous people. Totally. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, so it goes back to that call for
then like relationship and like knowing people
and and and yeah, those treaties like you said
that sort of bring us together because otherwise
yeah we can talk about different things or we
can maybe try and do things differently but like
you said if we're not in order to make the goals
and values of indigenous people my goals and
values I need to be in relationship with indigenous
people yes yeah so that's gonna so it's not primarily
but there's got to be a shift So those other
things I talked about, that's all got to be a
part of it. So then the Vancouver School of Theology,
when they went to develop an indigenous studies
program, then they would bring in, they tried
to bring in indigenous instructors, when at all
possible, to teach. Sometimes it was similar
courses, but sometimes they were just kind of
innovative differences. And then they tried to...
make sure that this is all about Indigenous community.
And teach to do it with Indigenous people. When
they could, they've hired an Indigenous director
of the program, so that's me. And then, if at
all possible, I try to hire Indigenous people
to do the teaching. And we try to do it to Indigenous
people. Make sense? That's kind of what we were.
Yeah. So if you think about sort of outside of
academic institutions and back into local churches,
like what does it look like for local churches,
especially churches that don't have a lot of
indigenous people in them, to participate in
truth and reconciliation? I remember back when
the Oka crisis came, I was teaching 1990. So
that would have been, that was part way through.
I was leading an indigenous church in Regina,
but I had lots of younger folk who were. I don't
know, they used to hang out with me, I don't
know why. They were not indigenous, but they
used to hang out. So we'd do stuff together.
And I remember one young guy was working, I think
it was in a hotel in Saskatchewan working the
front desk. Or maybe he was working in the bar,
I can't remember. But he just asked me. what
could he do because people, he'd be working and
people would say all kinds of negative things
about indigenous people. This was a common thing.
Sure. And I remember one time I talked to him,
I says, you know, sometime you could just politely
say to people when they're saying rude things
about indigenous people. You could just point
out that maybe it's not that simple. So then
while I know for you he told me story a while
later that he was in working and someone was
just they were doing a report on the oka crisis
and they were just this person was just Saying
on digits people all they do is complain. What
are they doing? and all he said this young guy
just said He said Excuse me, sir. I think it's
more complicated than that. I think it's more
complicated than what you're saying it is Yeah.
And the person stopped. He didn't argue with
them. Sure. So I think one thing you can do is
just in society, when people say things that
just aren't true, just to say, excuse me, I don't
think that's true. Yeah. I don't think that's
the way it is. I think it's more complicated
than that. And then also to take part in the
celebrations. So digit people, I don't know where
you're living, if you're in Mississauga or wherever
you are. But you know, there's a mall, it's near,
what station is it? What mall is that? In Toronto.
There's a park across from, oh, it's just off
of, oh, I can't remember the name of the station.
Anyways, there's this one park in Toronto where
every September they have a little powwow, an
urban power. At least, I've been to it one time.
You know, powwows, celebrations that Indigenous
communities have, those are for everybody, not
just Indigenous people. And sometimes, you know,
people think, oh, I can't go to that because
it's Indigenous. No, if Indigenous people advertise
something, it's because they want everybody to
go. Just go. You celebrate together, whatever
it is. We will celebrate any victory, no matter
how small, just celebrate. And sometimes there's
protests, things that are helpful. I don't believe
in the violent ones. And there is a point maybe
when, you know, all you're doing is pissing people
off. And I'm not sure how helpful that is. Maybe
it is. I don't know. I've never been big on that.
But, you know, in Vancouver, They had a march
for reconciliation. I think the first one, thousands
of people showed up. And it was overly, and it
helped to strengthen the community. The women
who staged those, you know those, they had those
flash mobs, it was drum. They would do this flash
mob round dance in all the malls. That did something.
Yeah. It reminded people. Our march is about,
I think those things are helpful. Because I think
if we draw attention to those who are marginalized,
that helps everybody. Totally. Yeah. So if we
can do those things, those are good. Yeah. Always
been good. And then another kind of thing that
we could do is Or the best thing is just to engage
anywhere you have a chance. If people put out
a call for some help to do some stuff, then go
and help. I just think that's what changes you.
Yeah. Yeah, it goes back to that relationship
and community, right? And then you could go for
a walk, visit sites where stuff happened. because
sometimes you visit sites and you get a better
understanding of what's going on. You can learn
the history. You know, like in Niagara Falls,
I always got a kick out of that. So it's in Niagara
Falls. There's a friend of mine who lives down
there. He's not indigenous, but he grew up there.
So then they have this huge monument to the guy
who led, I think, The War of 1812, you know,
because Brock is his name. Yeah, I think so.
Yeah. They have this huge monument to him. And
they have a little statue of Laura Secord, because,
you know, she warned that the British were coming
and the Americans are coming. And but the people
who were instrumental in the whole victory and
helping Laura Secord get to where she wanted
to go was the Mohawks. There's no monument to
them there. But there was, when I was there,
someone had built this little stick sort of monument.
And it was to the Haudenosaunee who helped, who
were instrumental in all of this. I mean, the
reason Canada won the War of 1812 is because
the Mohawks were with them and the Americans
were terrified of the Mohawks. Yeah. And that's
why they gave up. After hardly any shooting goes,
the Americans give up because they are terrified
of the Haudenosaunee. But you got to learn that
history, you see. Right. If you just go by what
there's plaques people put up, you don't know
that. Yeah. But learn history from the people
so you can do that. What I learned, Jacques Aloul
said, I like him. He's a French philosopher.
He's part of the French resistance during the
Second World War. He's a contemporary with Dietrich
Bonhoeffer and others. And he said, at some point,
you have to make a decision. Who are you going
to side with? Are you going to side with marginalized
folks and groups to help further their agenda?
Are you just going to side with the powers that
be? Because at some point you're gonna face a
decision you're gonna be in a situation where
the all of the things you learn like pros and
cons That's not gonna help you. You just have
to make a decision And I tell people you need
to have it made it up your mind that when push
comes to shove I will side with marginalized
folks Even if when I don't understand it completely
I'm gonna side with marginalized people. To me,
that's what it is to be human. And that's freedom.
To just say my goal isn't the most efficient
society. I'm going to choose human beings and
we're terribly inefficient and take way too much
time. Sure. And we don't do anything the way
that industry would like us to do things. But
I am going to suck human beings. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. It's it's when you sort of put it in that
way, like it seems like a really simple choice
and it seems like a really straightforward. Like,
yeah, of course, that's, that's the thing to
choose. I think it, we complicate it sometimes.
Oh, and it's, and it's hard. It's not easy. If
you're, if you're people who are listening to
this, if they want to check something out, I,
the thing that the thing, one of the things that
happened to me, like back when I was, I was working
in the church and those days I was working in
the Christian missionary Alliance, which is the
Evangelical Church. I watched a documentary called,
uh, Noam Chomsky in the media, manufacturing
consent. Okay. And it's, and it was just about
how our media and really, uh, he was writing
in like the, during the Vietnam war years, our
media will only really, they, they put forward
the stuff that supports the status quo. And I
thought about that and I thought, hey, the church
does that too. It's not a conspiracy thing. He
said, he kept saying this is not a conspiracy.
It's just what we do. We can only see the world.
Now I'm using another person about paradigms.
We can only see the world through the world that
we have known. So then we are gonna try, we're
gonna end up reading things a certain way. Sure.
And it's not easy to shift. So. Yeah. So I think
about a couple of the things that you said, you
know, uncovering some of that hidden history
about Indigenous peoples' roles in some of these
events that we mark in Canadian history, or about
when you're hearing some conversation and saying,
well, maybe it's more complicated than that.
I think some folks will say, well, that that
sounds good. But like, where do I even get started?
How do I know that it's more complicated than
that? So do you have some places that you might
point people to just like start to learn more,
to educate themselves a little bit? Let's see.
One of the ones that comes to mind is Robert
Joseph, Chief Robert Joseph. OK. He is. he wrote
a book called let's see chief robert joseph books
here he goes uh he wrote a book about a pathway
to reconciliation okay that's one that's out
i thought there was another book about The Indian
Act. Ah, there was Bob Joseph? Yeah, that's it.
Same guy. Yeah, the 21 Things You Should Know
About the Indian Act, I think is what that one's
called. Yeah. So anything by Robert Joseph. And...
The Royal Commission on Aboriginal People. Like,
it's a ton of work, but there used to be a 150
-page summary. of people is 4 ,000 pages. Right.
That's quite a thick book. And the question was,
there's several volumes, but the question was,
in that study, they went across Canada and said,
what would it take to fix it? Right. OK, so that's
one. And then the 94 calls to action, those are
available online. Yep. I think what it was called,
the Indian Residential School History and Dialogue
Center, that's, the Indian Residential School
History and Dialogue Center is at UBC, but all
of their material is online. Yeah, I think you
can go and hear different stories and testimonies,
get history of the various schools and things
like that. So there was a center that was struck.
There was a fund that developed. It was after
the statement on reconciliation. Jane Stewart
made it in 98. And they set up this healing fund.
And they produced a bunch of good literature
and it's online too. The Canadian government
actually, one of the good things that they do
is that they host all this stuff and it's online
and it's free to download. And there's good stuff
there. Yeah. So that's one of the things government
does well. That's good. Yeah. And then if you
can, we talked about going to powwow. Yeah. Going
to a ceremony. If they're an open ceremony, if
people are advertising it, then go learn. And
then also, just look. I mean, Francis Schaeffer,
and I agree with him, there's kind of these four
kinds of relationships in the world. Okay. There's
the relationship that an individual has with
themselves. There's a relationship that someone
has with their group and then that group with
other groups. There's a relationship that people
have with the land. And ultimately, there's a
relationship on ultimately there is a relationship
with creator and spiritual, the spiritual. Do
something to impact one of those relationships
in a healing way. I don't think it matters which
area you start with. But once a person is on
the path to healing, true healing, will end up
leading you into all of those other relationships.
Sure. As you work through those things. And that's
good for everybody. So if you want to be a person
of peace, then you should work on your stuff.
Not exclusively, because you can, you know, the
thing about working on our stuff is sometimes,
you know, that Henry now and said there's this
In the center of most of us, just because of
our wounded, who we are, is an abyss. If we step
into that hole, there's no bottom. What we're
trying to do is we're trying to dance around
the edges. And so we work on our stuff and as
we dance around the edges, we find some healing.
And like in the 12th step of the 12 steps, you
have found help, go help somebody else. Right.
So that's why I say just work to be a positive
healing influence in one of your relationships
and they'll lead to the other ones. Right. Yeah.
So. Sounds like good advice. And it fits with
the gospel for Sunday. Yes. Sunday, you know,
the one who is faithful in little things will
be faithful in big things. But one who's dishonest
in little things, they're going to be dishonest
in big things. Yeah. Anyways, yeah, probably
a good place to quit. Yeah, yeah. No, do you
have any other comments or questions, things
you wanted to leave us with? Just at the artwork
behind me, that's my daughter's artwork. Okay,
very cool. If you're interested in her artwork,
check out Kat, C -A -T -A -L -D -R -E -D. You
can find her on Facebook. Okay, very cool. She
has a Squarespace. If you're into art. Yeah,
it looks great. Well, thank you so much, Ray.
This has been a really helpful conversation,
I think, to give us... some grounding in Canadian
history, but also some grounding in the work
that you and other Indigenous folks are doing
in trying to bring about healing and reconciliation
that ripples far beyond indigenous communities,
I think. It impacts all of us. So thank you so
much for taking this time for this conversation.
Thank you for joining us for this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. I hope that in all of what
we have been discussing that you have been able
to find some next steps in healing in relationships,
whether that is... your own healing, your healing
with the relationships with other people or the
land or with creator. Whatever it is that you
need, I pray that you can go forth in that and
bring about more truth and reconciliation in
our lives today. And we'll see you next week.