WEBVTT 00:00:02.819 --> 00:00:05.160 Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:07.820 of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. My name is 00:00:07.820 --> 00:00:12.320 Britt. And we are here to talk about... letters, 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.420 but also very one specific letter. The Bible 00:00:16.420 --> 00:00:18.500 is full of all kinds of different letters that 00:00:18.500 --> 00:00:21.100 are written by people to the churches. That's 00:00:21.100 --> 00:00:24.000 some of what we're studying in our sermon series 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:27.239 on Sunday mornings. But I want us to fast -forward 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:33.259 quite a bit, a couple thousand years, to 1963, 00:00:34.179 --> 00:00:37.659 when Martin Luther King Jr. writes a letter from 00:00:37.659 --> 00:00:41.549 a Birmingham jail. That letter is also I think, 00:00:41.710 --> 00:00:44.770 a letter to the churches. It's a letter to at 00:00:44.770 --> 00:00:48.609 least clergy, to church leaders. Yeah. And so 00:00:48.609 --> 00:00:50.909 I think it actually still has a lot of really 00:00:50.909 --> 00:00:56.210 helpful things for us to say to us today. So 00:00:56.210 --> 00:00:59.960 I know my... Maybe not my first experience of 00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:02.179 this letter, but my most meaningful sort of experience 00:01:02.179 --> 00:01:04.599 with this letter was actually in Birmingham So 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:09.420 I was there for a conference And at this university 00:01:09.420 --> 00:01:11.319 campus that I was on in their library They had 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.019 a whole display about the letter from Birmingham 00:01:14.019 --> 00:01:16.760 Jail. Oh, wow Yeah, and I just like stood in 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:18.760 this library and read this letter and as I was 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:22.299 reading it I was like was this written 60 years 00:01:22.299 --> 00:01:26.359 ago because like this feels very true right now 00:01:26.909 --> 00:01:30.150 So yeah, I don't know what your thoughts, how 00:01:30.150 --> 00:01:33.209 you sort of approached it. Yeah, no, reading 00:01:33.209 --> 00:01:37.609 it back felt like, it felt like Martin Luther 00:01:37.609 --> 00:01:42.409 King Jr. is alive today and wrote it to us now. 00:01:42.810 --> 00:01:48.549 It felt very, yeah, it felt modern in so many 00:01:48.549 --> 00:01:52.349 ways. Yeah, and then just to think that he was 00:01:52.349 --> 00:01:55.930 writing it. in a jail at that time. Like at the 00:01:55.930 --> 00:01:57.989 end, I think he kind of like, it's almost like 00:01:57.989 --> 00:02:02.450 sarcasm. He says, I'm sorry, this is so long, 00:02:02.450 --> 00:02:06.150 but I'm in jail. Got nothing better to do. Yeah, 00:02:06.269 --> 00:02:11.349 there's so much humanity wrapped up in it. It's, 00:02:11.550 --> 00:02:14.189 yeah, it took me for a spin, but it felt, it 00:02:14.189 --> 00:02:18.490 felt so, felt so modern that it almost didn't 00:02:18.490 --> 00:02:20.370 feel like I was reading something back from the 00:02:20.370 --> 00:02:24.840 1960s, which is Yeah, fascinating for me. It 00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:30.000 is, yeah. For folks who don't know, it was written 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.099 in 1963 in a Birmingham jail. That's what it's 00:02:34.099 --> 00:02:35.460 called, the letter from the Birmingham jail. 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:40.379 At that time, actually in the letter, King describes 00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:42.800 Birmingham as one of the most segregated cities 00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:46.379 in America. He's been arrested for being part 00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:50.020 of a public demonstration there to oppose segregation. 00:02:50.779 --> 00:02:54.960 And he's writing actually predominantly to eight 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:59.139 white clergy who have written this open letter 00:02:59.139 --> 00:03:02.259 that was then published in a newspaper criticizing 00:03:02.259 --> 00:03:05.580 this civil rights movement and saying, this is 00:03:05.580 --> 00:03:07.960 not the right time. You're not really going about 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:11.319 this the right way. And there's a lot of fear 00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:14.479 of, is this breaking down our Christian witness 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:19.629 by creating these tensions between the white 00:03:19.629 --> 00:03:22.469 church and the black church. Yeah, and that's 00:03:22.469 --> 00:03:27.330 sort of the context that he's addressing. But 00:03:27.330 --> 00:03:28.949 yeah, as you were reading the letter, were there 00:03:28.949 --> 00:03:32.990 any particular parts that stood out to you? Yeah, 00:03:32.990 --> 00:03:35.569 I think the part that stood out to me the most 00:03:35.569 --> 00:03:39.710 was like at the the the reason for the letter 00:03:39.710 --> 00:03:42.830 was because, as you said, the saying the method 00:03:42.830 --> 00:03:46.830 and the timing is of their action was was wrong. 00:03:47.580 --> 00:03:52.979 And I feel like King really gets at when is the 00:03:52.979 --> 00:03:57.580 right time, what is the right method to go about 00:03:57.580 --> 00:04:01.319 creating change or being a Christian witness. 00:04:02.580 --> 00:04:07.139 And I was constantly challenged by that. It took 00:04:07.139 --> 00:04:09.960 me back to thinking of the things that are happening 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:15.430 in our world today. in the many ways that it 00:04:15.430 --> 00:04:17.509 is so much, it actually almost reminded me of 00:04:17.509 --> 00:04:21.430 a letter to the Church of Laodicea with like, 00:04:21.569 --> 00:04:26.790 I would rather you be hot or cold. And it felt 00:04:26.790 --> 00:04:31.290 like he was speaking to me and saying like, choose 00:04:31.290 --> 00:04:36.189 a side. In fact, maybe if there's not just one 00:04:36.189 --> 00:04:40.050 or the other, but there is, I think he describes 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:46.120 it as like this perfect way. And that really 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:50.699 sat with me. What are Christians called to do? 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.399 How are we called to witness? And when are we 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:58.379 called to witness? And how do we challenge the 00:04:58.379 --> 00:05:03.720 norms in our society to actually live into our 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:10.250 call? Talking like that was also one of the parts 00:05:10.250 --> 00:05:14.329 that really like stood out to me was You know 00:05:14.329 --> 00:05:17.930 that he talks about like the Yeah, they're there. 00:05:18.089 --> 00:05:19.649 That's the part I was looking for he so he says 00:05:19.649 --> 00:05:22.569 I've reached the almost regrettable conclusion 00:05:22.889 --> 00:05:25.110 that the Negro's great stumbling block in the 00:05:25.110 --> 00:05:27.850 stride towards freedom is not in the white citizen's 00:05:27.850 --> 00:05:31.290 counselor or in the KKK, but in the white moderate 00:05:31.290 --> 00:05:35.149 who is devoted to order more than justice, who 00:05:35.149 --> 00:05:37.850 prefers a negative peace, which is the absence 00:05:37.850 --> 00:05:40.649 of tension, to a positive peace, which is the 00:05:40.649 --> 00:05:44.110 presence of justice. Shallow understanding from 00:05:44.110 --> 00:05:47.230 people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute 00:05:47.230 --> 00:05:51.949 misunderstanding from people of ill will. That 00:05:51.949 --> 00:05:55.370 whole section there really jumped out to me. 00:05:56.149 --> 00:06:04.850 Who am I? Where do I fit in this? You can deal 00:06:04.850 --> 00:06:09.689 with passion on either side. If somebody's really 00:06:09.689 --> 00:06:12.670 passionate for a cause, you can work with that 00:06:12.670 --> 00:06:15.470 energy. If someone is really passionate against 00:06:15.470 --> 00:06:19.810 a cause, obviously that's not... Ideal but like 00:06:19.810 --> 00:06:21.810 at least there's like an energy there. I know 00:06:21.810 --> 00:06:23.949 where you stand Yeah, I know where you stand 00:06:23.949 --> 00:06:26.949 and I know like I know not to like try and trust 00:06:26.949 --> 00:06:30.230 you right, but like for someone who's just like 00:06:30.230 --> 00:06:33.029 Yeah in the middle then it's like there's no 00:06:33.029 --> 00:06:35.149 energy there to work with there's no sense of 00:06:35.149 --> 00:06:39.790 like like I It's unpredictable. Yes, and then 00:06:39.790 --> 00:06:43.629 the other thing like I so he he gets at the the 00:06:43.629 --> 00:06:46.709 clergy that wrote this this letter that he's 00:06:46.709 --> 00:06:50.160 responding to Uh, and there was a point where 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:51.939 he does commend them for the things that they, 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:55.319 that they did do. Um, but it's almost as though 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:57.959 they were willing to go, they weren't willing 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:01.939 to go the full way. And in that, that maybe almost 00:07:01.939 --> 00:07:03.939 reminds me of like, if I'm going to stretch it 00:07:03.939 --> 00:07:06.839 a little bit, the rich young ruler who was willing 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:11.079 to do some things, but that, that I keep coming 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:14.500 back to that perfect way. That was the part that 00:07:14.500 --> 00:07:17.100 kept the rich, the rich young ruler didn't want 00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:20.889 to go the full mile that Jesus was calling them 00:07:20.889 --> 00:07:25.410 into. And I could foresee, I see that in the 00:07:25.410 --> 00:07:27.610 way that those men, I'm assuming they're all 00:07:27.610 --> 00:07:32.990 men, 60s. But in that same way, I feel like they 00:07:32.990 --> 00:07:35.269 were willing to do some things. So maybe in their 00:07:35.269 --> 00:07:41.550 local congregation, I think two of them had ended 00:07:41.550 --> 00:07:44.069 the practice of her segregation within their 00:07:44.069 --> 00:07:48.120 local congregation. But even that King says is 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:52.500 not enough. Because what is the sense? Yes, you're 00:07:52.500 --> 00:07:55.120 able to have worship within your congregation, 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:58.939 but you still have this whole other realm where 00:07:58.939 --> 00:08:02.560 people are treated as less than human beings. 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:07.439 And so for King, it's like it's not enough to 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:10.899 do the bare minimum. And I think that's the that 00:08:10.899 --> 00:08:13.139 piece about lukewarmness. It's like I'll just 00:08:13.139 --> 00:08:17.189 do a little bit. I don't want to ruffle the feathers 00:08:17.189 --> 00:08:24.810 as too much. But yeah, they weren't willing to 00:08:24.810 --> 00:08:29.569 do the hard thing, the thing that costs you something. 00:08:32.190 --> 00:08:35.070 I sit in my seat and I'm like, yeah, no, no, 00:08:35.070 --> 00:08:38.970 no. I could see how that is something that... 00:08:38.990 --> 00:08:42.070 I today could have issues with. And he doesn't 00:08:42.070 --> 00:08:43.990 just talk about the white moderates, right? He 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:47.769 talks about the, in explaining the plight and 00:08:47.769 --> 00:08:52.649 the struggle of African Americans, he does talk 00:08:52.649 --> 00:08:57.389 about the different positions or groups that 00:08:57.389 --> 00:09:00.009 they would have fallen into in the 60s. So you 00:09:00.009 --> 00:09:03.720 have the ones who were... who were so used to 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:06.720 oppression that they just they just saw it as 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:09.879 normal and didn't even fight against it. And 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.220 then you had the other the second group who he 00:09:13.220 --> 00:09:16.240 described as like academics and maybe business 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:21.759 people who had because they had that social access, 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:24.259 and they probably had some sort of financial 00:09:24.259 --> 00:09:28.779 gain in the social structure of segregation, 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.419 they were willing to just let it be because there's 00:09:31.419 --> 00:09:34.200 something in it for me. I think a lot of us, 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:40.080 for many of us who are middle class, that is 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:44.440 a thing that tends to happen. I could see myself 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:48.460 in that. And then you have the what he described 00:09:48.460 --> 00:09:52.419 as black nationalists, folks that were that they 00:09:52.419 --> 00:09:54.259 at the end of the day, they were like, you know, 00:09:54.299 --> 00:09:56.080 I don't believe that these white men are going 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:57.740 to change their minds. I don't believe that the 00:09:57.740 --> 00:09:59.440 system is going to change. So there's going to 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:02.019 be devils and we're just going to have to do 00:10:02.019 --> 00:10:05.919 what we got to do. And I could see all of like, 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:09.120 I see us in those camps. And I don't think he's 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:12.539 calling for us to be any three of those. So in 00:10:12.539 --> 00:10:16.960 the same way, he's not calling for us to be extreme 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:24.259 clansmen or moderates. I think King was just 00:10:24.259 --> 00:10:27.360 saying be a Christian. Right. Like just be a 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:31.240 Christian. Anyway. Yeah, no, no, that's so interesting 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:35.600 that. Yeah, because I think it is helpful to 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:38.480 like draw some parallels to the way of Jesus 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.059 in this, because like obviously that is. sort 00:10:41.059 --> 00:10:44.139 of what is calling him is Christ, and he's very 00:10:44.139 --> 00:10:47.480 upfront about that. Yeah, and just that sense 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:53.240 that Jesus is constantly disturbing the peace, 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:56.620 right? And showing up and doing the things that 00:10:56.620 --> 00:10:59.399 are not expected, hanging out with the people 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:04.220 that are on the margins, and doing that to the 00:11:04.220 --> 00:11:10.059 point of death. And so, yeah, there's a cost. 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.919 Like, if we're following Jesus, and Jesus is 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:15.919 an example, like, there was so much cost to him. 00:11:16.299 --> 00:11:19.279 And so, obviously, there's cost to us. And then, 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.559 yeah, so the question then becomes like, if I'm 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:29.080 not experiencing a cost, like, am I? faithfully 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:31.980 following Jesus. Now that feels also like a slippery 00:11:31.980 --> 00:11:34.960 slope. Cause like, I don't, I don't want to say 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.360 that the way that in order to be a faithful Christian, 00:11:37.460 --> 00:11:39.299 you like have to be suffering. Cause like, let's 00:11:39.299 --> 00:11:43.259 not all run out and chase suffering. Um, but 00:11:43.259 --> 00:11:45.720 like there is something about following the way 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:50.059 of Jesus that just is gonna set you apart in 00:11:50.059 --> 00:11:52.799 some way and like alienate you from some people, 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:59.480 I think. Yeah. Yeah, there's so much tension 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:05.600 in all of it. A word he used often as well. Yeah, 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:12.779 that word tension, in my gut, I hear tension 00:12:12.779 --> 00:12:16.580 and I want to hide away from it because it feels 00:12:16.580 --> 00:12:20.539 like I'm a conflict -avoiding kind of person 00:12:20.539 --> 00:12:22.960 most of the time. And so tension just doesn't 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:25.759 feel good. But the point that that Martin Luther 00:12:25.759 --> 00:12:32.879 makes is that tension can be positive. He talks 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.720 about it being like the gadflies that bite an 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.840 animal and get them doing a thing. And that's 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:43.100 what tension should be. It's not that it's tension 00:12:43.100 --> 00:12:45.919 for tension's sake. It's not for the sake of... 00:12:45.870 --> 00:12:49.009 stirring up stuff. It's for the sake of moving 00:12:49.009 --> 00:12:52.309 something forward and like drawing attention 00:12:52.309 --> 00:12:55.049 to things that otherwise we might ignore, especially 00:12:55.049 --> 00:12:58.490 if you're sitting in a seat of privilege, especially 00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:01.210 or if you're like benefiting from the status 00:13:01.210 --> 00:13:05.330 quo or just like not negatively impacted by the 00:13:05.330 --> 00:13:08.549 status quo. Right? Yeah. So that leads me to 00:13:08.549 --> 00:13:12.509 think of his, like when he's talking about direct 00:13:12.509 --> 00:13:15.919 action. And I guess the question that was posed 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:20.779 to him in the original letter was that not right 00:13:20.779 --> 00:13:24.759 way, not right time, why not use negotiation? 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:29.399 And he says, well, they're not willing to negotiate. 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:34.220 And he gets into something that I actually think 00:13:34.220 --> 00:13:38.059 in a lot of protest movements that I've witnessed, 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:42.340 a tool that they use very often. It doesn't necessarily 00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:44.240 happen within our Christian context as much, 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.259 but it's something that I've seen where you can't 00:13:48.259 --> 00:13:52.159 get a group to be in conversation with you in 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:54.840 good faith. So you create that tension, those 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:59.120 conditions for tension, so you can have that 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:01.639 discourse in a meaningful way, one that gets 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:07.159 people to really listen. It's in the inconvenience, 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:11.370 in the... like there's so much examples that 00:14:11.370 --> 00:14:15.470 we've seen. In that inconvenience, I can get 00:14:15.470 --> 00:14:19.889 you to face the reality. And I thought it was 00:14:19.889 --> 00:14:24.450 fascinating how he compared the tension that 00:14:24.450 --> 00:14:28.289 that direct action creates for predominantly 00:14:28.289 --> 00:14:31.889 white folks in Alabama or created for white folks 00:14:31.889 --> 00:14:34.789 in Alabama to the tension that he describes for 00:14:34.789 --> 00:14:40.200 his children. And it's it awoken something into 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.379 me. Like he said, he talked about his daughter 00:14:42.379 --> 00:14:44.879 and how his daughter has to deal with that tension. 00:14:45.100 --> 00:14:50.120 Right. When she looks at the amusement park advertisement 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:53.240 and she's like, I want to go there. And he has 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:55.759 to tell her, well, no, colored people are not 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:58.480 allowed there. And then he talks about his son 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.019 and he gives another example and he says, well, 00:15:01.259 --> 00:15:03.940 and now he, and he talks about how like that 00:15:03.940 --> 00:15:06.799 tension creates something. It creates, he now 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:09.730 he has to try and shift that energy that his 00:15:09.730 --> 00:15:12.549 daughter and his son have that could brew hate, 00:15:12.610 --> 00:15:14.669 which he explicitly says it's like it's a natural 00:15:14.669 --> 00:15:19.169 consequence. So it's like the idea of everyone 00:15:19.169 --> 00:15:22.049 will experience tension. Tension is something 00:15:22.049 --> 00:15:26.490 that happens in relationship. So we avoid it. 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:29.710 And I guess the if we're going to actually try 00:15:29.710 --> 00:15:34.789 and maintain human relationship, then the right 00:15:34.789 --> 00:15:38.159 thing to do is to just Do the direct action and 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:40.779 make it happen, right? Which is uncomfortable, 00:15:40.779 --> 00:15:43.980 but I think it does push us to a place where 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:47.000 We can be in relationship with each other because 00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:48.440 I think what we're doing is we're trying to avoid 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:52.299 it, right? Yeah, and I wonder if like part of 00:15:52.299 --> 00:15:55.960 what direct action does is it? Creates the tension 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:58.960 like earlier Yeah, I could then like like because 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:01.600 if in the example of these kids if they are, 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:03.740 you know experiencing this tension and then they 00:16:03.740 --> 00:16:07.509 grow up and grow into a sense of greater tension 00:16:07.509 --> 00:16:11.309 and alienation and maybe even hate or anger towards 00:16:11.309 --> 00:16:14.710 others, then that's going to be something that 00:16:14.710 --> 00:16:17.389 then blows up and gets bigger over time. Whereas 00:16:17.389 --> 00:16:20.789 direct action says, let's not move towards that 00:16:20.789 --> 00:16:23.710 inevitable. Let's throw the tension in your face 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:25.669 right now so that we can deal with it before 00:16:25.669 --> 00:16:28.429 we get to hating each other or before we all 00:16:28.429 --> 00:16:31.110 get there anyway. Before we all get there, because 00:16:31.110 --> 00:16:33.269 the reality is that many people had already gotten 00:16:33.269 --> 00:16:36.500 there. Totally. Um, and there's a whole other 00:16:36.500 --> 00:16:39.519 ecosystem in the sixties, uh, filled with black 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:42.179 national movements and a lot of that created 00:16:42.179 --> 00:16:46.539 a lot of violence. Um, and what King is saying 00:16:46.539 --> 00:16:48.779 is like, I understand how that violence is created 00:16:48.779 --> 00:16:50.919 and it's not created in a vacuum. It's created 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:53.700 because of those early, those early narratives, 00:16:53.779 --> 00:16:56.419 those early experiences of children. Uh, and 00:16:56.419 --> 00:16:58.779 he uses his kids as a perfect example, I think. 00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:02.720 Um, and yeah, like I think we have to deal with 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:04.630 tension. If we're going to be in relationship 00:17:04.630 --> 00:17:09.029 with each other, we have to let tension exist. 00:17:09.029 --> 00:17:12.690 So if we are in conflict with each other, then 00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:16.849 we need to be able to tackle that right on. And 00:17:16.849 --> 00:17:22.970 if we see that there are inklings of maybe someone 00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:26.269 trying to avoid that tension, then maybe the 00:17:26.269 --> 00:17:28.509 good thing to do is to just say, you know what, 00:17:28.910 --> 00:17:31.950 I'm going to take up a little bit of space so 00:17:31.950 --> 00:17:35.660 that we can have this conversation in a way that 00:17:35.660 --> 00:17:37.559 is like it doesn't have to be like his example 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.180 is direct his example in that particular situation 00:17:40.180 --> 00:17:42.859 the government was not listening the community 00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:46.000 was not listening and they didn't have to listen 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:51.160 because they were creating more and more roadblocks 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:54.480 for them to be even be able to vote or to be 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:58.690 able to access services And that's so what he 00:17:58.690 --> 00:18:02.309 does is an extreme. And he sees it as something 00:18:02.309 --> 00:18:04.509 like, yes, this is inconvenience, this is extreme. 00:18:05.829 --> 00:18:08.789 But I think in our one -to -one relationships, 00:18:08.809 --> 00:18:10.829 and I think he rightfully points out Martin Buber 00:18:10.829 --> 00:18:15.410 and uses that I and thou, I it relationship dynamic 00:18:15.410 --> 00:18:19.710 to say, if we are humans, if you believe that 00:18:19.710 --> 00:18:21.690 I'm a human and you're a human, if you believe 00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:23.910 that you're a child of God, I'm a child of God, 00:18:24.309 --> 00:18:27.029 then we need to be in conversation with each 00:18:27.029 --> 00:18:30.990 other. And you need to be able to hear and understand 00:18:30.990 --> 00:18:40.549 my plight. And that is, that is tough. It's uncomfortable. 00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:44.910 I hate doing it. Sure. But I know that if I'm 00:18:44.910 --> 00:18:48.210 going to be in relationship in community with 00:18:48.210 --> 00:18:50.549 people, if I'm going to say I love you and I 00:18:50.549 --> 00:18:52.450 care for you, and that's also what he gets at 00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:56.430 too, then I need to be able to. I need to be 00:18:56.430 --> 00:19:02.910 able to just let tension be so it could escape 00:19:02.910 --> 00:19:09.130 in some way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think 00:19:09.130 --> 00:19:10.670 people use this analogy when they're talking 00:19:10.670 --> 00:19:13.390 about anger. You bottle it up inside for so long, 00:19:13.529 --> 00:19:15.549 and then at some point, it's going to explode. 00:19:16.670 --> 00:19:20.589 And that is true on lots of different levels. 00:19:22.779 --> 00:19:26.019 it is that tension that builds up that we need 00:19:26.019 --> 00:19:30.059 to find healthy ways of releasing. And sometimes 00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:31.720 I think when people think about healthy ways 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:33.819 of releasing anger, they think about like, okay, 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:36.599 so don't direct it towards people at all. And 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.819 like, maybe, but maybe it means I direct, I talk 00:19:40.819 --> 00:19:44.180 to you about my anger without exploding at you. 00:19:44.619 --> 00:19:48.130 Right? And maybe it means like, Because especially 00:19:48.130 --> 00:19:50.670 if the conditions are such that like the thing 00:19:50.670 --> 00:19:53.109 that I'm angry about is just going to continually 00:19:53.109 --> 00:19:55.029 be true like it's it's one thing if somebody 00:19:55.029 --> 00:19:57.509 does something that like Frustrates me and then 00:19:57.509 --> 00:20:00.130 it's over but like if that is how society is 00:20:00.130 --> 00:20:03.309 structured to constantly frustrate me then like 00:20:03.309 --> 00:20:09.089 that's a bigger problem. Yeah. Yeah So I guess 00:20:09.089 --> 00:20:10.630 the other part that I'm curious. Yeah, it was 00:20:10.630 --> 00:20:19.730 like his conversation on laws. And that was also 00:20:19.730 --> 00:20:22.049 when I was like, I was tussling as I was reading 00:20:22.049 --> 00:20:24.609 it. Like, what do you do? And I think the example 00:20:24.609 --> 00:20:26.849 he gave was right. I think it's true for all 00:20:26.849 --> 00:20:31.529 time. And he uses Nazi Germany as an example. 00:20:31.950 --> 00:20:36.089 And I thought that was a perfect example for 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:38.609 that. That's one that our society tends to see 00:20:38.609 --> 00:20:43.009 is very white and black. There's not much unless 00:20:43.579 --> 00:20:47.259 we're, I don't know, upside down, where that's 00:20:47.259 --> 00:20:51.359 going to be a challenge in that way. So just 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:54.839 to then clarify there, what he said was that 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:56.980 we can never forget that everything that Hitler 00:20:56.980 --> 00:20:59.980 did in Germany was legal, and everything that 00:20:59.980 --> 00:21:03.480 the freedom fighters did was illegal. But that 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.480 doesn't make it actually right. There were laws 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.400 that made it possible for Nazi Germany to exist, 00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:11.609 but that doesn't mean that that was... Good. 00:21:12.710 --> 00:21:15.109 Yeah. But then he puts himself, I think what's 00:21:15.109 --> 00:21:19.150 easy for us, it's easy for us to talk about things 00:21:19.150 --> 00:21:23.670 as abstract or outside of ourselves. And I found 00:21:23.670 --> 00:21:27.210 the way that he put himself in the story. And 00:21:27.210 --> 00:21:31.450 he asks, he says, would I have done, if I was 00:21:31.450 --> 00:21:35.190 in Nazi Germany, what would have been my reaction 00:21:35.190 --> 00:21:38.930 to those laws? Would I have respected them? Or 00:21:38.930 --> 00:21:42.680 as a Christian? would I have seen them as unjust 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:45.900 and what I have done?" I think he describes it 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:47.900 as the perfect way. I think he used that word. 00:21:47.980 --> 00:21:53.420 I think that's the word he used. But yeah, I 00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:55.940 think for more and more of us, and I was challenged 00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:58.559 by this, how do I put myself outside of just 00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:00.160 saying, because that's the moderate response. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.460 The moderate response is to see something and 00:22:01.460 --> 00:22:05.779 say, that's wrong, and then walk away. The minimum 00:22:05.779 --> 00:22:10.829 is to just say, this is wrong. But he's saying 00:22:10.829 --> 00:22:14.589 the Christian response is to follow actually 00:22:14.589 --> 00:22:18.809 the moral law, the law of God, and to do something. 00:22:19.869 --> 00:22:21.369 Just because something's on the books doesn't 00:22:21.369 --> 00:22:23.849 mean I have to agree with it. Actually, I should 00:22:23.849 --> 00:22:27.529 challenge it through my understanding of God's 00:22:27.529 --> 00:22:32.549 laws. And that should be the guide for how I 00:22:32.549 --> 00:22:38.559 make my decisions. and what I do in that context. 00:22:40.460 --> 00:22:42.900 But that's hard to insert ourselves. That was 00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:46.180 a self -exercise we did often. I don't know if 00:22:46.180 --> 00:22:48.980 it challenged you in that way. Yeah, totally. 00:22:51.380 --> 00:22:54.640 It's really interesting to think about some of 00:22:54.640 --> 00:23:00.180 these examples that are so... practical and so 00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:03.400 like life or death because like I have heard 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:05.579 lots of preachers talk about this idea that like 00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:09.640 God's law is is the the preeminent law and so 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:12.759 like human laws should you know align with that 00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:15.079 but if they don't follow God's law but usually 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:17.700 what they're talking about are like things that 00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:21.690 seem less important to me. They're talking about 00:23:21.690 --> 00:23:24.950 the way that you spend your time or your money. 00:23:24.990 --> 00:23:28.430 They're talking about whether we should vote 00:23:28.430 --> 00:23:31.869 this way or that way. These are important things, 00:23:31.890 --> 00:23:35.670 but in this context, it's like, no, are you following 00:23:35.670 --> 00:23:40.630 God's law of love and life? Or are you following 00:23:40.630 --> 00:23:43.369 this in the example of Nazi Germany, this other 00:23:43.369 --> 00:23:48.849 law that literally leads to death? Yeah, and 00:23:48.849 --> 00:23:53.789 so I think sometimes we overcomplicate God's 00:23:53.789 --> 00:23:57.150 law. Especially if we look at Scripture in the 00:23:57.150 --> 00:24:00.410 Old Testament, God's law can seem really complicated. 00:24:00.829 --> 00:24:03.509 There's like 600 or so of these laws, and we're 00:24:03.509 --> 00:24:07.230 like, oh yeah, so we can't possibly follow all 00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:11.609 of them, so let's just throw them out. But Jesus 00:24:11.609 --> 00:24:15.670 then summarizes God's law as love. Love God. 00:24:16.009 --> 00:24:19.529 love your neighbor as yourself. This is the law 00:24:19.529 --> 00:24:25.690 and the prophets according to G -List. It's hard, 00:24:25.930 --> 00:24:30.470 but it's not complicated. But it gets complicated 00:24:30.470 --> 00:24:33.450 when you have something to lose, right? And I 00:24:33.450 --> 00:24:39.690 do see how that can be challenging when doing 00:24:39.690 --> 00:24:43.269 the right thing could mean that I could lose 00:24:43.269 --> 00:24:47.470 my job. Or I could lose my friends or my family 00:24:47.470 --> 00:24:50.650 members. And that happened for some people. Some 00:24:50.650 --> 00:24:53.230 of the people that Martin Luther King describes 00:24:53.230 --> 00:24:56.849 in the letter as, I guess today we call them 00:24:56.849 --> 00:25:01.549 white allies in the story. He names them out. 00:25:01.569 --> 00:25:04.710 And if you look at their stories, they went through 00:25:04.710 --> 00:25:10.309 a lot. They were demonized and blacklisted. And 00:25:10.309 --> 00:25:12.670 those types of things happen to those people. 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:18.460 So, are we willing to let that happen to us? 00:25:18.779 --> 00:25:22.119 Let the pieces fall where they may. Martin Luther 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:26.359 King Jr. was labeled, if I'm not wrong, was labeled 00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:29.240 almost like a terrorist and was watched by the 00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:33.920 FBI. Are we willing to do the right thing at 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:43.200 that cost? There's so many things I think we 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.180 weigh against when it comes time to do the right 00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:51.079 thing. It's like, well, we're thinking about 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.779 things I think are reasonable to an extent if 00:25:53.779 --> 00:25:55.359 we're thinking of, OK, well, I might lose my 00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:58.440 house. If I lose my job, I lose my house. I can't 00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:02.160 feed my kids. And those are things that I think 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:07.339 can be pretty typical for us to think of or we 00:26:07.339 --> 00:26:12.410 can define it as reasonable. Am I really trusting 00:26:12.410 --> 00:26:15.549 God if I believe that God can really hold all, 00:26:16.470 --> 00:26:20.430 can control my circumstance or be there for me 00:26:20.430 --> 00:26:23.930 in times of need? Then do I really trust God? 00:26:24.130 --> 00:26:26.970 And I do believe because he was writing in the 00:26:26.970 --> 00:26:32.230 jail. That was not his first show. He trusted 00:26:32.230 --> 00:26:37.630 God to hold him in the tension that existed in 00:26:37.630 --> 00:26:40.950 his wider society. that led to tension in his 00:26:40.950 --> 00:26:44.450 home, that led to tension within his community. 00:26:45.329 --> 00:26:47.750 He held on to God and believed God and trusted 00:26:47.750 --> 00:26:51.630 God. And he speaks about those other individuals 00:26:51.630 --> 00:26:53.890 that did the same thing. He talks about Abraham 00:26:53.890 --> 00:26:57.009 and he talks about his namesake, Martin Luther. 00:26:58.829 --> 00:27:01.869 And he talks about Paul and he talks about these 00:27:01.869 --> 00:27:04.309 people that said, you know, I'm going to trust 00:27:04.309 --> 00:27:06.869 God anyway and I'm going to do the thing that 00:27:06.869 --> 00:27:10.480 God has called me to do. which is to seek justice, 00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:13.799 to love mercy. I talked about Amos. He named 00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:17.940 all these great giants that did lose something 00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:21.559 when they did the thing that God called them 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:26.059 to do, when they chose God's law over the law 00:27:26.059 --> 00:27:31.519 of the land. People have done it. He's done it. 00:27:31.619 --> 00:27:35.970 He's calling us. He's calling those ministers 00:27:35.970 --> 00:27:37.349 he was writing to, and I believe he's calling 00:27:37.349 --> 00:27:44.990 us to follow God, to listen to God, to not be 00:27:44.990 --> 00:27:50.390 lukewarm. Yeah. It's interesting because I feel 00:27:50.390 --> 00:27:53.609 like there's one sense in which none of this 00:27:53.609 --> 00:27:58.200 makes sense without faith. Right? And that's 00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:00.220 not to say that people who aren't Christians 00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:03.299 or people who aren't people of faith can't join 00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:05.380 in these movements. They definitely can. But 00:28:05.380 --> 00:28:09.500 there's something about being a person of faith 00:28:09.500 --> 00:28:13.359 and saying, I trust God. I'm following the way 00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:18.339 of Jesus. I don't know, it adds some weight to 00:28:18.339 --> 00:28:22.480 it. And it adds some grounding to it, I think. 00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.460 Right? Because it's not like, oh, I'm just doing 00:28:24.460 --> 00:28:28.099 this because I personally believe in this set 00:28:28.099 --> 00:28:30.900 of ethics or I personally believe in these things 00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:33.099 that have led me to want to do this. It's like, 00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:38.240 no, I believe in the God of the universe. I believe 00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.460 in the sovereign Lord who is over all of this 00:28:41.460 --> 00:28:46.359 and in all of this. And so, on the one sense, 00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:51.960 that means it's not... up to me, right? I don't 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:53.940 have to control the outcome of this movement 00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:58.380 or this action. And if this action ends up in 00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:02.059 the way that is not ideal for me, I have something 00:29:02.059 --> 00:29:06.400 to fall back on, which is God. And that doesn't 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:09.339 always mean physical comfort and safety, right? 00:29:09.339 --> 00:29:11.759 He talks about the early Christians who were 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.559 thrown to the lions for disobeying Caesar's law 00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:18.660 and these things, right? It's not going to... 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:23.660 Turn out comfy cozy. No, but it is. There's still 00:29:23.660 --> 00:29:25.920 something good about it. Yeah. Cause great is 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:28.539 your reward in heaven. I agree with you. Like 00:29:28.539 --> 00:29:31.140 there's that grounding. Cause I look at a lot 00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:38.519 of our movements today and I see, I see so much 00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:46.259 despair. Um, it doesn't feel like And I'm generalizing, 00:29:46.299 --> 00:29:48.759 but it doesn't seem like folks are hopeful for 00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:56.519 something. I asked myself the question of, okay, 00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:59.880 yes, we're tearing something down, but what are 00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:03.720 we building? And I think Martin Luther King Jr. 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:06.500 knew what he was building. He knew what he was 00:30:06.500 --> 00:30:09.420 building was, he was ushering in the kingdom 00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:16.700 of God for all people at all times. And I yeah, 00:30:16.700 --> 00:30:18.720 I think that is something that we need to hold 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.420 into. Like he's in his letter. I don't think 00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:23.759 it's. And I was sure I shared the letter with 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.200 someone recently, and I was I was saying, you 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:30.140 know, like there's so much in our so much in 00:30:30.140 --> 00:30:33.660 our world is pushing us to be like to pick a 00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:37.660 side, pick a lane, pick a cause, do this. And 00:30:37.660 --> 00:30:39.960 I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. I hear 00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:43.490 you. But. He's not calling any of those. He didn't 00:30:43.490 --> 00:30:47.410 call those people to pick a left or a right. 00:30:47.609 --> 00:30:51.390 He called them to pick Jesus, pick Jesus fully. 00:30:52.430 --> 00:30:55.730 And that is, I think that's the harder thing 00:30:55.730 --> 00:30:58.390 to do. I think it's easier to pick those spots. 00:30:58.730 --> 00:31:01.170 And then in both spots, I think you choose anger 00:31:01.170 --> 00:31:06.109 or you choose numbness. But that's not the way 00:31:06.109 --> 00:31:08.170 of Jesus. There's something hopeful and grounding, 00:31:08.230 --> 00:31:11.769 as you said, that is in that, that keeps you. 00:31:12.730 --> 00:31:14.869 I don't know if you've seen the footage from 00:31:14.869 --> 00:31:16.450 some of the footage that they have when they 00:31:16.450 --> 00:31:20.190 were marching. And I often look back at some 00:31:20.190 --> 00:31:23.970 of the footage where you see the police brutality 00:31:23.970 --> 00:31:29.029 and you see their faces, how solid they were. 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.180 There's something horrific is happening to them. 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:36.440 They're just so resolute that they're going to 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:40.380 just stand their ground and do the thing that 00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:43.460 they came to do. They never shout back. They 00:31:43.460 --> 00:31:48.900 never hit back. They're just solid. And how were 00:31:48.900 --> 00:31:51.779 they capable of doing that? I can only see that 00:31:51.779 --> 00:31:55.299 Jesus had to be with them in that moment to make 00:31:55.299 --> 00:31:59.730 them feel like they could do it. Yeah, I think 00:31:59.730 --> 00:32:02.410 it brings this letter into conversation with 00:32:02.410 --> 00:32:05.130 like the I have a dream speech in some sense, 00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:09.470 because it is the dream. Like there is that thing 00:32:09.470 --> 00:32:11.529 that we're working towards. And I think if it's 00:32:11.529 --> 00:32:14.069 only we're running away from something, we're 00:32:14.069 --> 00:32:16.130 afraid of something. You know, segregation is 00:32:16.130 --> 00:32:19.390 bad, obviously. In the modern day, you know, 00:32:19.710 --> 00:32:21.589 like climate change, whatever it is, like all 00:32:21.589 --> 00:32:24.069 of these things that we are trying to push back. 00:32:24.650 --> 00:32:27.710 It's like, OK, sure, push back. But like, what 00:32:27.710 --> 00:32:30.740 are you pushing? towards. Yeah. And if you don't 00:32:30.740 --> 00:32:34.039 have something you're going towards, then like, 00:32:34.460 --> 00:32:36.619 I don't know, it just you it I think it's harder 00:32:36.619 --> 00:32:39.019 than to stand your ground. Yeah, especially when 00:32:39.019 --> 00:32:42.740 you see major setbacks. Yeah. And he saw many 00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:47.940 of those. But with the context with the context 00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:51.900 of knowing, having that grounding, I think it 00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:54.900 It gives you the space, even in the midst of 00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:58.039 the setbacks, in the midst of further oppression, 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:07.059 to be able to stay focused. And I see that. I 00:33:07.059 --> 00:33:09.099 feel like this letter took me places because 00:33:09.099 --> 00:33:12.160 it's the encouragement I think we need to see 00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:14.880 today. And that's why I felt like it was like, 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.779 is he right? Did he write this just yesterday 00:33:16.779 --> 00:33:20.519 and pen it for the New York Times or something? 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:25.059 Like, who wrote this? Like in 1960s, it doesn't 00:33:25.059 --> 00:33:29.599 make any sense. But I think there's its principle, 00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:32.059 right? Like throughout time. And that's why he's 00:33:32.059 --> 00:33:37.299 able to. echo back or reflect back to scriptural 00:33:37.299 --> 00:33:44.859 time or to the 1940s and years gone by because 00:33:44.859 --> 00:33:48.700 it's a principle. It's not. Because political 00:33:48.700 --> 00:33:52.700 positions sway and they move and popular opinion 00:33:52.700 --> 00:33:55.660 sways and it moves. But yeah, if we're getting 00:33:55.660 --> 00:33:58.000 back to what he talks about, like the laws, like 00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:01.839 God's law stays forever and the principles that 00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:05.509 Jesus has set out for us. those remain. They're 00:34:05.509 --> 00:34:10.309 not time -bound. They are, I'm looking for my 00:34:10.309 --> 00:34:14.050 theological word, but I don't have it. They're 00:34:14.050 --> 00:34:19.210 trans -cultural, and they push beyond what we 00:34:19.210 --> 00:34:24.650 currently know, and they remain consistent. Yeah, 00:34:24.670 --> 00:34:28.130 because it's Jesus. And Jesus is the same yesterday, 00:34:28.130 --> 00:34:30.230 today, and forever, but not in a boring way. 00:34:30.269 --> 00:34:35.469 In a just like always relevant way. Which then 00:34:35.469 --> 00:34:37.409 makes me think about this other line that really 00:34:37.409 --> 00:34:41.610 stood out to me in the letter where Martin Luther 00:34:41.610 --> 00:34:45.829 King was talking about, you know, if the church 00:34:45.829 --> 00:34:49.480 doesn't address the issues of the day. And in 00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:51.500 his day, that was segregation. There's, we could 00:34:51.500 --> 00:34:53.840 insert lots of other things in our day, but if 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:55.599 the church is not addressing the issue of the 00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:58.579 day, then we risk becoming what he called an 00:34:58.579 --> 00:35:01.760 irrelevant social club. And when I read that, 00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:05.199 I was like, wow, so many of my peers would sit 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:08.840 and say, the church is pretty irrelevant. And 00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:11.059 people just like go there and hang out and then 00:35:11.059 --> 00:35:14.820 they go back and do their lives. But like, meh, 00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:19.980 it hasn't changed anything. Um, yeah. So like, 00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:22.760 when I read that, I was like, Oh, so has the 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:25.920 church, the church has been waning towards irrelevancy 00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:28.980 for a while. And that's scary. But also I don't 00:35:28.980 --> 00:35:32.119 think it's universally true, right? Like I think 00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:36.840 there are local churches, there are people following 00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:40.340 Jesus who are desperately trying to be relevant 00:35:40.340 --> 00:35:43.639 and who I think are doing that well. But it's 00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:49.119 not it. It's not always the norm, I guess. Well, 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:51.059 then this is what I would say for like, how do 00:35:51.059 --> 00:35:55.280 you do that? Well, and I think at the crux of 00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:57.500 the letter, I feel like he's calling people into 00:35:57.500 --> 00:36:01.699 relationship into a deeper listening. And I think 00:36:01.699 --> 00:36:05.039 if the church churches that do that, well, our 00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:10.719 churches that prioritize relationships, prioritize 00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:15.219 deep relationship, prioritize Not just doing 00:36:15.219 --> 00:36:22.420 a program. Forget our Sunday production. That's 00:36:22.420 --> 00:36:25.380 not the focus. The focus is being in a relationship 00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:32.059 with each other to build a stronger kingdom. 00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:37.389 And I think that's where... we get it wrong because 00:36:37.389 --> 00:36:40.389 we push away these issues that people are dealing 00:36:40.389 --> 00:36:42.550 with in their day to day. I remember he talked 00:36:42.550 --> 00:36:44.090 about the experiences that his children were 00:36:44.090 --> 00:36:49.230 going through. If we were to ignore those things 00:36:49.230 --> 00:36:51.269 within our Christian community and we didn't 00:36:51.269 --> 00:36:55.030 create space to hear those stories and to share 00:36:55.030 --> 00:36:59.250 in the carrying of those burdens, then yeah, 00:36:59.530 --> 00:37:02.670 it would become irrelevant because we're not 00:37:02.670 --> 00:37:07.050 tapped in. If I don't know what my brother or 00:37:07.050 --> 00:37:09.409 sister or sibling is going through, how can I 00:37:09.409 --> 00:37:11.690 be in relationship with them? Yeah, I think that's 00:37:11.690 --> 00:37:14.929 one thing that I think is just I think could 00:37:14.929 --> 00:37:18.809 be really beautiful from like the pen pal writing 00:37:18.809 --> 00:37:22.630 series is that it could push us into even deeper 00:37:22.630 --> 00:37:25.949 relationship because we're forced something about 00:37:25.949 --> 00:37:27.989 letter writing is you're forced to listen. Yeah, 00:37:28.230 --> 00:37:32.199 you can't. pause the letter and start talking. 00:37:33.139 --> 00:37:35.480 You just need to listen. You need to listen. 00:37:37.179 --> 00:37:39.340 And yeah, I think that is, if the church is going 00:37:39.340 --> 00:37:41.119 to become relevant, then we need to be able to 00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:46.000 listen. We need to put aside the program. And 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:49.699 I, all I do is program design. That's it. So 00:37:49.699 --> 00:37:52.539 I'm like, I know, I know, I know we need to, 00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:56.000 we have a timeline. We need to get out the door. 00:37:56.059 --> 00:37:59.719 Like I get it. But if we're not in conversation 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:02.880 with each other, then what's going to happen 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:04.440 is there's going to be a moment where we're faced 00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:08.519 with it head on. And that's going to be uncomfortable. 00:38:09.980 --> 00:38:14.900 And it's going to be disruptive. And he even 00:38:14.900 --> 00:38:19.559 says it could even be dangerous. And the church 00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:21.699 doesn't want to be in that mix. We want to be 00:38:21.699 --> 00:38:25.280 in the mix of creating further spaces for dialogue 00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:30.250 so people can be heard. can be valued. I think 00:38:30.250 --> 00:38:39.969 in its micro level like this, if we can start 00:38:39.969 --> 00:38:44.699 doing that within... uh, our local, uh, parishes 00:38:44.699 --> 00:38:48.739 and churches, then the ripple effects, that exercise, 00:38:48.920 --> 00:38:51.800 that ripple effect will just, it can carry in 00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:54.860 large ways. And that I think will, a church that's 00:38:54.860 --> 00:38:57.420 less, um, a part of the solution of a church 00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:03.059 that's less, uh, uh, irrelevant. Yeah. No, that's 00:39:03.059 --> 00:39:07.699 so interesting. Cause I just think like, Sometimes 00:39:07.699 --> 00:39:09.920 when churches think about oh, we're losing our 00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:12.900 relevance. They think us we need to like Learn 00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:15.139 the hip language of the youth. Yeah, or we need 00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:18.539 to like talk about Minecraft or I don't know 00:39:18.539 --> 00:39:21.219 whatever the quotes. Yeah, I am irrelevant because 00:39:21.219 --> 00:39:22.780 I don't know what the kids are talking about 00:39:22.780 --> 00:39:27.239 these days Minecraft. Yeah, okay Great like but 00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:29.500 like we think like that's the like that's how 00:39:29.500 --> 00:39:32.599 we be relevant. But actually What about the like 00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:36.380 deeper human need? Mm -hmm for just like community. 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:39.760 Right? If the church is not meeting that basic 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:42.739 need, then we become irrelevant. Yeah. Because 00:39:42.739 --> 00:39:44.820 like, actually, I think one of the things that 00:39:44.820 --> 00:39:47.880 Jesus was all about was building community, being 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.340 in relationship, spending time just like getting 00:39:51.340 --> 00:39:56.039 to know people and then like walking with them 00:39:56.039 --> 00:40:00.280 on the path towards life. Yeah. And so like, 00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:04.190 that's relevance. Yeah. So then the question 00:40:04.190 --> 00:40:07.809 is, do I know, do I truly understand the plight 00:40:07.809 --> 00:40:11.750 of my brother? Because if I do, I think this 00:40:11.750 --> 00:40:13.769 is what he's getting at. If you do, then you 00:40:13.769 --> 00:40:15.789 would understand why I've taken these actions. 00:40:17.869 --> 00:40:20.690 I think what he's getting at, and he is Martin 00:40:20.690 --> 00:40:22.329 Luther King Jr., I feel like, so rude saying 00:40:22.329 --> 00:40:28.809 he. But what he's getting at in that is, it's 00:40:28.809 --> 00:40:31.710 clear to me that while you're well -meaning, 00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:35.800 And I like he said he starts things like I don't 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:38.840 even like usually comment on like criticism. 00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:46.480 Yeah. But I I see you as as brothers. And I think 00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:48.860 you're genuine. So I'm going to entertain you. 00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:51.579 Yeah. But I'm also going to call you out and 00:40:51.579 --> 00:40:57.730 say that you truly don't understand what that 00:40:57.730 --> 00:41:00.610 people like him with what the Negro is experiencing 00:41:00.610 --> 00:41:03.510 because you haven't actually taken the time to 00:41:03.510 --> 00:41:08.250 to listen or to see us fully. Yeah. Because if 00:41:08.250 --> 00:41:09.829 they were seeing them fully, they would see, 00:41:09.829 --> 00:41:11.989 yeah, there's actually no space for them to actually 00:41:11.989 --> 00:41:15.789 have this conversation or to create change. And 00:41:15.789 --> 00:41:17.329 there's not enough people actually trying to 00:41:17.329 --> 00:41:21.199 push that so that change can happen. Yeah. So 00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.400 yeah, like, do we really know? And I don't think 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:26.360 I can answer for myself. I can say that I don't 00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:33.340 truly know my figurative brother or sister as 00:41:33.340 --> 00:41:37.400 well as I should do it. Like if I know someone 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:39.719 enough, I should know them enough to see their 00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:44.940 painfully. Yeah. It shouldn't come as a surprise 00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:49.710 when they make it known. Yeah. And yeah, I. I 00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:52.170 don't think we exercise that anymore as a larger 00:41:52.170 --> 00:41:55.110 society and that's echoed into our church or 00:41:55.110 --> 00:41:59.690 now it's extended into the church. Yeah. Yeah. 00:41:59.849 --> 00:42:04.530 Totally. Yeah. So I feel like we've covered a 00:42:04.530 --> 00:42:07.730 wide range of things. There's a lot, a lot of 00:42:07.730 --> 00:42:09.869 stuff to sort of pull out of this letter. So 00:42:09.869 --> 00:42:12.550 I want us to sort of focus in on our last little 00:42:12.550 --> 00:42:15.699 bit here, but like what's like one or two things 00:42:15.699 --> 00:42:18.860 that you're like taking away from this letter 00:42:18.860 --> 00:42:21.460 that you're like, this is like a point that I 00:42:21.460 --> 00:42:23.420 want to focus on. So I think one of the things 00:42:23.420 --> 00:42:30.000 for me is just recognizing that there is a lot 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:37.159 of fear and anger and yeah, mostly fear and anger, 00:42:37.179 --> 00:42:40.320 but some hurt that that exists in our society 00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:46.139 right now. And I want to It's not that I ignore 00:42:46.139 --> 00:42:50.559 that, but it's so overwhelming that sometimes 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:57.179 I feel like I just am not keeping up. What I'm 00:42:57.179 --> 00:42:59.280 reading, what I'm pulling out of this is just 00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:04.619 that sense of how do I check in with the people 00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:07.619 who are experiencing some of that? Not that I 00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:09.760 need to be up on all of the news headlines or 00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:12.639 all of the policy decisions. whatever is happening 00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:16.099 in the world, but like, am I checking in with 00:43:16.099 --> 00:43:19.460 my queer siblings? Am I checking in with the 00:43:19.460 --> 00:43:21.500 people of color, the immigrants, the people that 00:43:21.500 --> 00:43:26.559 I know who are afraid, who are hurting right 00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:31.079 now? Because I think even if I can't fix it, 00:43:31.219 --> 00:43:34.440 I can take some space to hold that, I think. 00:43:37.850 --> 00:43:41.650 I'm challenged. There was a sermon that I listened 00:43:41.650 --> 00:43:45.829 to this week where this pastor said he's overwhelmed 00:43:45.829 --> 00:43:48.610 in relation to all the things that's happened 00:43:48.610 --> 00:43:54.090 in this world as of recent. And I echo that. 00:43:54.250 --> 00:43:58.869 I echo that. In many ways, I do feel overwhelmed 00:43:58.869 --> 00:44:05.010 by what we see. But I'm also encouraged in knowing 00:44:05.010 --> 00:44:09.019 the end of the story. that should give me, I 00:44:09.019 --> 00:44:15.599 think, greater desire to usher that in. So in 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.440 reading his letter, I feel like I'm being called 00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:33.280 into less complacency or neutrality and one that 00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:36.929 chooses God every single moment. chooses the 00:44:36.929 --> 00:44:40.969 perfect way, chooses the way that that that God 00:44:40.969 --> 00:44:47.510 desires to seek justice, to love mercy, to walk 00:44:47.510 --> 00:44:50.010 humbly. Like those are the ways that I think 00:44:50.010 --> 00:44:52.809 if I could, yeah, all three of those altogether 00:44:52.809 --> 00:44:57.809 at the same time. Yeah, because I even in my 00:44:57.809 --> 00:45:00.429 own life, like when he was depicting like that, 00:45:00.469 --> 00:45:02.590 those groups, I felt like I felt like he was 00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:05.210 talking to me in many ways. And I'm like, okay, 00:45:07.139 --> 00:45:09.099 When you have power, you should do something 00:45:09.099 --> 00:45:13.599 with it. And Martin Luther King Jr. showed us 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.940 what he did with that power, with the influence 00:45:16.940 --> 00:45:19.739 that he had and how he called people to see the 00:45:19.739 --> 00:45:21.639 power that they had within them. Even people 00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:24.659 that were extremely oppressed saw the power that 00:45:24.659 --> 00:45:27.980 they had and they did something. And if they 00:45:27.980 --> 00:45:31.860 could do that, then I should do that and I can 00:45:31.860 --> 00:45:37.300 do that. because that's what God desires of us. 00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:42.539 Knowing the whole story, but not feeling like, 00:45:42.619 --> 00:45:45.559 okay, well, it's going to happen. Right. Yeah. 00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:49.460 It's somewhere in between where it's a little 00:45:49.460 --> 00:45:51.559 bit of an urgency, a little bit of a like, hey, 00:45:51.659 --> 00:45:54.280 there's work to do, but not, hey, there's so 00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:56.940 much work to do that it all falls on me. Yeah. 00:45:56.940 --> 00:45:59.019 It doesn't have to. It doesn't have to fall on 00:45:59.019 --> 00:46:01.840 me. Because in really in community we are in 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:06.039 relationship and We should we should be able 00:46:06.039 --> 00:46:08.420 to do it together. Yeah, we're never doing it 00:46:08.420 --> 00:46:16.059 alone Yeah, great letter totally letter totally. 00:46:16.260 --> 00:46:20.579 Yeah. Yeah, just again, like I think I just keep 00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:23.860 coming back to this like 60 year old letter that 00:46:23.860 --> 00:46:28.489 like it still speaks. Yeah, and like I'm not 00:46:28.489 --> 00:46:30.610 going to call it scripture because that seems 00:46:30.610 --> 00:46:33.349 like a bit much, but in the same way that scripture 00:46:33.349 --> 00:46:36.170 is this ancient thing that still speaks today, 00:46:36.809 --> 00:46:40.480 this is a letter that still speaks today. Not 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:42.320 the Word of God, but I think God is speaking 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:45.199 through it. Yeah, yeah. And you know, like, 63, 00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:48.099 1963, that's the year my dad was born. OK. So 00:46:48.099 --> 00:46:52.440 it's not that he's not that old. It's not that 00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:54.719 far. It's not that far. But it does put things 00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:57.059 in context. Yes, like where we've where we've 00:46:57.059 --> 00:47:01.619 gone, where we're going and what God has in store 00:47:01.619 --> 00:47:06.659 for us. So, yeah, the arc of the moral universe 00:47:06.659 --> 00:47:10.849 is long. It bends towards justice. Yeah, not 00:47:10.849 --> 00:47:14.449 by itself. Not by itself. No, by the hand of 00:47:14.449 --> 00:47:17.550 God and the work of God's people. Amen. Yes, 00:47:17.550 --> 00:47:21.409 I like that. Very cool. Thank you so much. Thank 00:47:21.409 --> 00:47:24.130 you. And thank you for tuning in to this week's 00:47:24.130 --> 00:47:28.510 episode of Trinity Talks. Wherever you find yourself, 00:47:28.909 --> 00:47:33.829 on any political spectrum, on any sense of fear 00:47:33.829 --> 00:47:36.230 or joy or whatever's happening in the world, 00:47:36.590 --> 00:47:40.070 I pray that God meets you there, and I pray that 00:47:40.070 --> 00:47:44.769 you are able to find your calling to use the 00:47:44.769 --> 00:47:47.090 power, the gifts that God has given you to do 00:47:47.090 --> 00:47:49.809 God's work in the world. And we'll see you again 00:47:49.809 --> 00:47:50.329 next week.