Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Melissa.
Britten. Justin. And we are here to wrap up our
conversation about the Beatitudes, this section
that opens Jesus's sermon on the Mount where
he talks about all of the kinds of people who
are blessed and why that matters, what it sort
of looks like for us to live in the way of Jesus.
It kind of ends on a bit of a downer. I mean,
there's a little bit. Great is your reward in
heaven. That is the actual end. Great is your
reward in heaven. But to get the reward in heaven,
Jesus says, blessed are the persecuted or blessed
are those who are persecuted for righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. So, I mean,
The reward is great. The road is maybe less ideal.
Yes. The way to put it. Yes. Yeah. So we're talking
about persecution. Blessed are those who are
persecuted because of righteousness. So first,
maybe we need to talk about like persecution
as a word. Like what when you hear that word,
like what sort of comes to mind for you? Well,
definitely this is something that I've learned
more, even just like last year. But there is
a lot of Christian persecution that happens.
Perhaps it doesn't happen in the Western world,
where Christianity is deemed to be kind of like
the dominant kind of religion. If you are a Christian
in a Western country, you do have certain privileges
that other people of other religions would not.
However, this isn't the case in other countries
in the world. there's a lot of people who are
dying or who are being horribly treated, kidnapped,
all these things, persecuted, thrown out by their
own families and other countries because they've
decided to follow Jesus. And there is an organization,
I actually don't know if I can mention it here.
It's called Open Doors Canada. So this organization,
they specifically work with countries where Christians
are being persecuted. It's really prevalent and
it's really sad, the stories. I believe that
recently there were children who were killed
in Nigeria or they were kidnapped and they were
Christian children. So it's not always like shown
on the media. However, if you go looking for
these stories, you'll see that there's a lot
of stories of Christians who are being killed
right now in countries where Christianity is
not... the dominant religion yeah yeah yeah totally
it's like serious stuff it it is and um i think
i think it's just that you know we live in such
a privileged place where we can talk about our
faith openly um and i think sometimes as christians
who grow up in western countries we kind of take
that for granted um of course not all of us because
they're are Christians who do get persecuted
as well. However, not to the extent that someone
in a another country may be persecuted. And it's
there's very, very dark stories that come out
of countries like this. And I won't mention them.
But again, if you look for it, you will find
it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what do you folks think
of when you think of or hear persecution? Yeah,
I guess like I. The word persecution, I think,
within a Western context, especially within Christian
spaces, is something that is almost like a buzzword
that we use to talk about the oppression of self.
And it tends to be used within spaces that...
I guess we need to like define what do we mean
by persecution? Yeah, right because some folks
will will say like because you don't permit me
to I don't know. Yeah, yeah persecution complex.
Yeah. Yeah, and it's and it becomes this this
like whole thing um And so it's yeah, just to
sort of finish your sentence there like it's
it's People will say that they're persecuted
when they don't get to do like sort of thing,
they're inconvenienced in some way. It's persecution.
Yeah. It's, I can't pray in school anymore. Or
I can't force other people to pray. Yeah, or
I can't force other people to pray in school
and therefore I'm persecuted. And that's maybe
not the angle that we have in mind here. And
I think that's why when like what you're talking
about, Melissa, and like what people are experiencing
in other countries, when we do have those conversations,
a lot of folks will, they're already tuned out
because we've made the word, we've watered it
down so much within our own society that and
use very what I would define as minuscule things
to to validate it. And in some ways, we cried
wolf so much times that it doesn't it doesn't
it doesn't feel like it's true. Sure. Yeah, there's
definitely difference between Christians getting
persecuted in the context of a waning Christendom.
and in the context of a place where Christians
are a minority, right? We feel like we're getting
persecuted sometimes here because we're no longer
in charge of everything, right? But someone who's
converted in a Muslim majority nation or, you
know, in India and a Hindu majority area or something
like that is gonna face different kinds of consequences.
Right. And then that text talks about like for
righteousness sake. Yeah, and I think That's
the other piece. It's not because you have this
label of being Christian or because you take
on doing insert Christian -ish thing here. Like
you walk with your Bible or you wear a necklace
that has a cross on it. And those things do.
People do experience that. But in Christian minority
countries, people do experience those things.
But it's not just because of the symbols. that
they're showing, it's because of what follows
up with that. Like, yeah. Yeah, it's not purely
ethno -religious persecution, right? Because,
like I mentioned, Hindu majority, right? The
Muslims are getting it just as bad as the Christians,
right, in some of those contexts. So it's whatever
the majority. Yeah, it's not because you said
you, because you're following Jesus and Jesus
has led you to feed the poor. But that is, historically,
that is, when we think of, especially, like,
I was thinking about this passage and I was thinking
about it in the context of what happened after.
What happened after people started to like take
that name of Christian and the stories that they
would tell. And it, what, what Christians were
being persecuted for are things that many of
us today, like as Christians, like we're like
the church is begging us to do like feeding the
poor. Like literally that was, that was enough
to be persecuted. Cause you were, you were You
were throwing the the the powers that be on their
head like they were they were winning off of
these things They were thriving off of these
things. I guess what kept power in place Yeah,
so by doing by it by helping your neighbor and
this sounds so simplistic, but like that's what
they were doing Yeah, yeah, you're throwing a
wrench in the system. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like
when it comes to like even just like all of the
Beatitudes, including this one, like sometimes
you read and you think, OK, I have to actively
go find a way to get persecuted so that I can
now, you know, be blessed. And it's like just
like some of the other Beatitudes we talked about,
you don't as a Christian, you don't need to actively
go out to look for it. Just being a Christian
and what you represent in a fallen world means
that you will get persecution. You will get pushback
from people. Of course, depending on where you
live. that intensity of pushback will depend.
You know, it's like, yeah, being told, maybe
you can't pray in school because of whatever
reason or people are like, hey, why aren't you
doing X, Y, Z when we're all doing it? And you
say, well, I'm following Jesus, so I'm not doing
X, Y, Z. And they might not talk to you or not
want to be around you for whatever reason. That
is a form of persecution. And there's also, of
course, people dying and people getting kidnapped
and all these terrible things. And it's just.
I don't think it's like God's like asking us
to seek persecution. I think He's like kind of
giving us this comfort that He wants us to follow
Him. But a natural consequence of following Jesus
means that the world is going to hate you and
so the world is going to persecute you. However,
it's like reassuring to hear that like Jesus
knows that. And it's like kind of like you have
to endure that because the opposite of enduring
that is turning away from Jesus and following
the world. It's also not just the world. So Jesus
says, they're going to persecute you just like
they persecuted the prophets. The prophets were
sent to the children of Israel. Right? So it
was the kings and the leaders of the Israelite
society that were persecuting the prophets. It
wasn't the Philistines or the Arameans. Right?
So I think we have to be conscious of the fact
that when you choose the way of Christ, even
in the context of church, people in the church
are going to potentially persecute you. As Jesus
says, the church is a mixed community. It's wheat
and tares, as he says in the parable. It's not
just wheat. So if you try to live the way Jesus
lives, you're going to throw a wrench not only
in the way the world functions, but you'll throw
a wrench in the context of people trying to use
the church institutionally for their own devices.
Right. Yeah. And I was thinking about that and
like, just like, I think that the word persecution
is the loaded term. And it made me think, what
are the things that, especially in light of the
prophet piece, I think that's really important
to note, because what are the things that we
tend to not see as Christian persecution or persecution
that happens to Christians for righteousness
sake, but truly is like taking up that cross
and getting battered. And I started thinking
about it in the lens that we're in the context
of the civil rights movement. And that in itself,
I think, is an example of how within our mainstream
Christian spaces, we don't... That wouldn't be
labeled under... No one would think of automatically
jump to Christian persecution. and think of all
of those black and other folks that were fighting
against segregation, fighting against the marginalization
that was happening in North America. And no one
would think of it like that, or maybe let's insert
movement into it. And we're not going to think
of, most people wouldn't even put that in climate
justice. No one's going to say, oh, that's Christian
persecution. But there is... There is a conversation
that should be happening there. Sure. That's
what King said in his Birmingham jail letter.
Yeah. He's writing it to other pastors who are
not supporting. Yeah. You know, like you were
saying you need to be more moderate in your approach.
Right. I'm doing this because of. My faith. The
call was inside the house. I really, really love
that point you made because that's so true. It's
like there's so many political, historical things
that are happening right now. And there are Christians
who are fighting against, you know, social injustice,
right? maybe because they don't look like what
the mainstream Christian, stereotypical Christian
looks like. You don't label it as Christian persecution.
But again, like, you know, when we talked about
how persecution against Christians, it's not
just like an ethno thing, right? There's no ethnicity
or nationality behind a Christian. A Christian
is someone who follows Jesus. And kind of in
that spirit, like there's so many things that
we learn about. And you don't know that there's
these are Christians, Christ followers who love
God and who want to love people. and they were
being persecuted. And there's so many layers
here because yeah, it's like, you know, maybe
they weren't being persecuted because they were
Christian, but they were being persecuted for
other things. Their race, their sexuality, where
they come from, all these other things. But I
guess just hearing what you said, it's like that
still is Christian persecution because they're
fighting for something. that they believe and
where the Christians are being persecuted because
they're standing with those oppressed folks.
Yes. Because of their faith in Christ. Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. It's like there's all of these places
where Christ calls us to and Christ doesn't just
call us into Christian spaces. Yeah. And that's
why maybe, well, the term Christian didn't exist
at that point when he was talking, but like the
saying persecuted for righteousness sake. Right.
In that context, I think it opens us up to getting
out of the like, I think we sit in this label
sphere where unless we can tightly label it,
then it doesn't matter. But righteousness, what
God has called to restore is beyond just like
making a denomination or a religious institution.
Great. I would actually say that's a So if if
if righteousness is coming into right relationship,
then all of these pieces are brought into it.
And that persecution piece, because there are
people that are going to die and they're not
going to label themselves as we can have a whole
other conversation. But they might not be looking
at in the context of saying I am doing this because
I read. I did my catechism and I read every single
book and it's because of this text that I'm doing
X, Y, and Z. They might not have that, but there
is a spirit, and I believe that's Christ, that
is calling them into something greater, calling
them into right relationship. And that will lead
to persecution. Opposition. Oppositional forces.
Yeah. This world runs on the fuel of opposition
to the Kingdom of Heaven. Yep. Right? So if you
start living as if the Kingdom of Heaven is actually
real, you won't fit. You'll be like a puzzle
piece that doesn't fit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
I think that's why, like, I sort of said that,
you know, that we end on a bit of a downer. But
like... Hit it fits. It fits with everything
else that we've talked about They're all downers.
They're all downers. Downers for now, then things
get flipped. But I guess like when I look at
the other Beatitudes, you know, like hungering
and thirsting for righteousness and meekness
and and all of these like peacemaking nice nice
things. That was a good conversation we had about
peacemaking. Yeah, I like I think there's just
There's a sense in which I can logic my way into
like, okay, this is why this might be a good
thing. Oh, I see. Right? I can say, okay, meekness,
yes, it's counter to the world, but I can understand
why God would call me to meekness. I can see
the benefit of it there. Persecution feels like
a different category to me because I can't logic
it in the same way. It's gonna lead into the
bit about loving your enemies. I think it needs
to be read hand in hand with that. Okay. because
Jesus was persecuted. Right. But he's persecuted
for the sake of his persecutors kind of in a
way. Sure. Right. He's doing this out of love
for the world. He's willing to to sort of face
that. He's willing to stand up for justice and
righteousness and all of that stuff to show the
world a better way, even though they end up rejecting
and killing him for it. Right. So there's a cruciform,
like cross shaped. Sort of sense to this right?
I'm standing up for righteousness because the
world needs to see that you need not be a Manipulative
looking out for number one. Yeah, you know Backstabbing
person to get ahead in this world Do everything
it takes to get wealth and money and power and
sex and all those things You do things differently.
They're not gonna like you for it, but you've
born witness And you're doing it for them, just
the same way Jesus did. Yeah. So, in this beatitude,
the line itself, the blessed are those who are
persecuted because of righteousness for theirs
is the kingdom of heaven, also comes with a bit
of a... Postlude, that's maybe not the right
word, but like, it comes with some extra verses.
Prelude. Prelude? Well, no, because it's at the
end. Oh, it is a postlude. Postlude, if it's
any of a - Adlib? Yeah. Epilogue. Yes? Yeah.
Anyway, it comes with some bonus features. Sounds
like we're saying Jesus is a recording artist
or a rapper. That's a different question than
you when you're just like the prophets. Yes.
What? Yes. So in that section, Jesus, so in the
Beatitude, he said persecuted because of righteousness.
In verse 11 that comes immediately afterwards,
he talks about, you know, people who if you are
like called evil or like if people are like making
fun of you and all of these other things because
of Christ. Yeah. Not because of righteousness.
Now, are these the same? Are they different?
I think they're related. Okay. How are they related?
Because you're acting justly or righteously in
Christ's name. Right. Who's the herald and the
substance of the kingdom of God or the kingdom
of heaven in Matthew's terms. So you're living
a certain way and you're proclaiming Christ together.
Those things are always intertwined. And that's
what people are upset about. Yeah. Right, I think.
And it's also, you know, it's a mirror of everything
Jesus went through, right? When people are speaking
evil of Jesus, right? What did he get called?
He got called a drunkard, a glutton, a demon
possessed, a son of Satan, all that stuff, right?
Even though he's just out there healing and doing
his thing. Because he doesn't fit. Right. He
just doesn't fit. Even though he's the rightful
Lord of this world, he doesn't fit. And that's...
This is another great Bonhoeffer quote, right?
Like when you run across Jesus, your options
are two things. You're either going to fall at
his feet and worship him as Lord or you're going
to crucify him. Right. Like I think I might have
mentioned that before. Maybe that feels like
a very stark contrast. Right. So that's that's
what's going to happen. You're either going to
be like, yes, Lord, I'll follow you like Peter,
or you're going to be like, I need to eliminate
this person. He doesn't fit. I just I think that's
always just something that like is kind of like
You know, the fact that like Jesus and like the
early Christians, they were doing good things
like feeding the poor, helping people, standing
up for the marginalized and the oppressed. And
that's what like got them persecuted. It seems
insane to me right now. However, at the same
time, it still does happen in this world. For
example, if there is an encampment of homeless
people and everyone's like, you got to take that
encampment down because it's ruining my aesthetic
of my park with my nice house. And you're like,
take it away because you have all these stereotypes
about people who are unhoused. It should be the
Christians that are like, no, we're not going
to take this encampment down. We're going to
get these people help. Even this might be controversial,
but harm reduction spots taking that away in
Toronto. It's like there's evidence that harm
reduction is good for the community. It helps
people. It reduces trips to the hospital. And
yet people were so for it to take away this necessary
resource that was going to help people. Why?
Because they were unhoused, because they didn't
look like what you want them to look like. And
it's like, no, it's like the Christians are the
ones who should be standing up for the people
who are oppressed. And you are going to get persecuted
from that. You're going to get called. Why do
you want? to ruin my beautiful yard. Why do you
wanna have these things where these people who
abuse substances can go and use whatever? And
it's like, no, as a Christian, you should stand
up for the people who are marginalized, even
if that means you're gonna get persecuted. And
sorry, this is - Yeah, go for it. I'm very passionate
about this topic, but it's so disheartening when
you see the fact that it's not Christians who
are fighting against that. Sometimes it's Christians
who are like, yeah, tear down that encampment.
And it's like - I feel very strongly that if
this was Jesus, Jesus would not be like teared
down in an encampment. He would be sitting with
the people in the encampment. He'd be sitting
with the people who are using harm reduction
sites, being there for them. He says in Matthew
25, I actually was the person in the encampment.
Yeah, legit. And then, so I think it's just that
those are things that happened this day. And
it's like, as Christians, we should be at the
forefront of like protecting people. I think
sometimes we're afraid to be and I will admit
this to like I'm also afraid to be as well because
I know I'm gonna get persecuted I know someone's
gonna be like XYZ, right? But I think it's like
when we're following that righteousness That's
just gonna lead to that persecution. Yeah. Yeah,
you know, it's I'm gonna I'm a one -track Mind
person here, but Bonhoeffer Yes, Bonhoeffer.
Again, in his prison letters, he was in prison,
imprisoned by the Nazis at the end of his life,
and he wrote all these letters kind of reflecting
on Christianity. And he says, Christians shouldn't
be known for their weird ceremonial practices.
Okay. You know, like, and I think that's what
you were talking about, the persecution complex.
It's like, they won't let me pray, they won't
let me do Eucharist, they won't let me build
my church building or have my music. He's like
do all that stuff in secret. Mm -hmm. He says
let your religious stuff Be done in secret and
let the stuff you're known for be You're dying
for the world, right? Your service to the world,
right? Right because he says He says all the
religious practices we we do can be misinterpreted
by the world. They can be profaned by the world
Oh yeah, the cannibalism. Yeah, yeah, for podcast
listeners, right? It's because people would get
together and eat Jesus' body and blood. Right.
So the rumor was Christians are all cannibals
because they eat bodies and drink blood. Right.
In the early years. Yeah, but he's like, don't
worry. Don't let your brand be the religious
stuff as Christians. Let your brand be... loving
one's neighbor in the name of Christ. Right.
For the glory of God. Yeah. And that's what we
should be known by. They'll know us. Yeah, yeah.
They'll know us by our love. That depressing
song. Yeah. They'll know we are Christians by
our love. By our love. Yes. Yeah. Instead of
they know we're Christians because we won't stop,
you know, laughing about our rights that we deserve.
Yeah. Yeah. So in some ways this beatitude comes
full circle back to the beginning because the
promise is the same as the promise in the first
one. Theirs is the kingdom of heaven. And as
an English major, I appreciate the poetry of
this. But what else does that offer us? Like,
are we talking about the same sort of promise?
Like, is it the same? Meaning that the kingdom
of God, like there's the kingdom of God. Is that
the same here as what what we're talking about
for the poor in spirit? Yeah, it's just I think
of like what Justin said, actually, which is
that all of the Beatitudes are supposed to be
like are what like the kingdom of heaven will
look like that upside down kingdom. And I feel
like in some ways it's like even they are talking
about different attributes. I feel like all the
Beatitudes kind of in a way just like say the
same thing, which is that if you follow Jesus,
you know, you're not just a fan of Jesus, you
actually follow him. That's going to bring, there's
going to be hardships. It's going to be really
difficult. However, that's what you got to do,
because that's what the kingdom of heaven is
going to look like. Right. And I was thinking.
in like you were talking about the encampment
pieces and how churches aren't even a part of
it and that's so true and I was thinking the
churches that are usually like very poor their
fundraising efforts don't go very far um but
in light of that I was I was thinking like it
makes more it probably is better to be poor in
spirit and in material things yeah and then be
persecuted because at least you have nothing
to lose right you can Like, what are you gonna,
like, all you're gonna lose, you're not gonna
lose the kingdom of heaven. You don't see the
megachurches trying to fight for the encampments.
You see them on Grammy shows. Do you guys have
megachurches in Canada? Not much. I'll show y
'all a megachurch compounded in the United States.
But yeah, maybe it's better to just be poor.
It's better to have nothing to lose. We talked
about this before. We talked about that investment.
If we are investing in this earth, then how can
we prioritize heaven? And yeah, I think we invest
so much that it is hard. So when the hard moments
do come, when it is time for us to take a stand,
It's so uncomfortable because we're holding so
much. Like I think of the rich young ruler, like
it was so hard for him to figure it out because
he had like he'd built up so much here that to
give up just a bit would have been too much.
That investment was so heavy. Some good cost
fallacy. Yeah. But really. was more, it's more
beneficial if you think about the long run. It's
also, I think, let's speak like plainly, I think
it's better for your mental health. But like,
not even just like having less materially, but
to be in a place where you can do the right thing.
You can live justly knowing that like, I'm I'm
not tied to any of these things. I can make the
right move because I can say the right thing
and stand up for people and call out really garbage
things when they're happening in my government,
in my community, in my home, because I haven't
invested into what is so, I would say, corrupt.
Say that I don't want to sort of just celebrate
poverty But I also that's one of the reasons
why we try to alleviate Because it's not a great
life To be poor there are certain sort of spiritual
potentially advantages, but it also sucks to
be addicted to smack in the streets But yeah,
I mean there's there's a balance I mean I think
it's extremely difficult to enter the kingdom
of heaven as a vastly wealthy person. But then
Jesus says, I can even get those people if I
want to. And the early church was subsidized
by all these wealthy women who let people be
in their houses and stuff. But again, you're
doing it out of obedience to Christ, not out
of fear, not out of hoarding, not out of a zealousness
for power. And I would love to see poor people
well fed and housed and all that kind of stuff,
too. Totally. I definitely feel like, yeah, like
it's like for anyone listening, it's not like
we're saying like, again, like we're not telling
you to go find someone to be persecuted. But
sometimes I think it is like every Christian
is going to be given different gifts from God.
And if you do have the privilege of certain gifts,
I feel that you know we're not saying you know
donate all of your money and now go live in a
tent somewhere it's more so like since you are
in that place of privilege how can you then use
that privilege to help those who are disadvantaged
who are facing barriers so for example you know
someone who if you're trying to fight to not
have an encampment of homeless people be taken
down perhaps you are someone who is more affluent
who might know someone and you can kind of speak
to people and be like hey like i don't believe
that you should be doing this to these people.
So I'm going to use what God has given me to
help other people. Because I feel like because
that's the contrast of that is you just sitting
there being like, that sucks for them. I'm just
going to go keep making more money and buy more
Bitcoin or whatever. And it's like you can use
that to help other people, too. And it's a personal
choice you have to make. And I think that's why
it's so hard to make that choice because. Yeah,
you might not be gaining something in the material
sense, but you would be sacrificing something
kind of like for the greater good. But you still
are in a better position than the people you
would be helping. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think
so. Go back to sort of the beginning of your
thought there. Like, we're not seeking persecution,
you know, but seeking the kingdom. We're seeking
the kingdom. And and this statement for me, is
less of a like, go gain, go strive after this
thing and more of a like, don't be surprised
when persecution shows up. Right? Yeah. Don't
have a pity party over it either. Like, I think
that's like the focus should be like, I think
about this a lot in like social issues where
someone might be advocating for a particular
thing and then they become the point of the story.
And usually, usually we say If you become the
point of the story, then you're doing the wrong
thing because you're you're detracting from the
actual issue. So someone is fighting against,
let's say, homelessness. And then now they become
like now all this attention, the story, the headline
is no longer City Park has been demolished or
the police have like, I don't know, formed some
sort of occupation around it or something to
keep certain people out of the park who were
sleeping in encampments. That should be the point
of the story. But if the story becomes, oh, Britain
was arrested by the police and is now in custody
for 10 ,000 days, and if I can get people to
donate to me... to get out of the prison, compared
to get people to donate to the residents that
were in the park in the encampment, then you've
missed the point. The plot's not there. I mean,
it kind of depends, right? Angela Davis is pretty
awesome. There are people, yeah, but like, I
think, like, for those folks, they saw their
positionality. They saw, like, how they were
able to... They could bring... Yeah, like, they
always, like, even, like, Angela Davis is a great
point, because anytime she got on the mic and,
like, she didn't talk about herself. Like in
fact, I've I've rarely heard her talk about herself
unless it's in conjunction to a story that talked
about Grenada like there was a whole thing in
Grenada and she but she talks about herself in
point of like this is what I How I use the power
I had as an American citizen to be able to support
the folks that were experiencing Like all this
up. So yeah, like if you are going to people
are gonna call you names Let them call you names
for righteousness sake or for the name of Christ
not because of yourself. I think that's the angle
I think we tend to miss. It becomes a story about
ourselves. It becomes a story of like, look how
Christian I am and how they want to torture me
as a Christian rather than the justice that we're
supposed to be seeking in the world. And it's
not, I mean, it's not fun to be persecuted, right?
Like, there's a way to get persecuted. I mean,
social media is the perfect example of this,
right? you get persecuted, then you immediately
parlay that into having some kind of audience
or something like that that's following you.
But in real life, it's, I mean, one of the reasons
why I think Jesus is giving us this sermon is
because he's trying to galvanize us. Like, it's
not going to feel like you're blessed in the
moment. It's going to feel terrible. Like the
world's going after you, like the people who
are not meek and not hungering and thirsting
for righteousness are succeeding. Like, everything
inside of you is gonna be like, this isn't worth
it. Right? It's not like people are gonna be
giving you accolades and being like, you know.
But that's why it takes faith, right? We talked
about that on Sunday. It takes faith to follow
the Sermon on the Mount, not grit. Yeah. So,
as we are wrapping up, the Beatitudes. I want
to just like read them all in a row here for
us and see how we feel about that. So Jesus said,
blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is
the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who
mourn for they will be comforted. Blessed are
the meek for they will inherit the earth. Blessed
are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness
for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful
for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the
pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed
are the peacemakers, for they will be called
children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted
because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom
of heaven. So when you hear those all together,
what does that bring about in you? I mean, I
think the first thing that occurs to me is like,
it's a lot. But it's also I Don't know it feels
right even as it feels hard and wrong if that
makes sense like it feels like this is what the
kingdom of God is about and also like Wow, how
does How it's kind of like a Like a dare Okay,
okay Jesus like all right, you want blessing?
This is what it's gonna take right? But it's
going to be awesome if you're willing to saddle
up your horse and ride. Yeah. To quote Stephen
Curtis Chapman. It sounds like a great adventure.
It does. Yes. In a lot of ways. But don't kid
yourself that it's going to be easy. Totally.
You know how, like, Jesus says, like, go and,
like, make disciples of, like, all the nations?
I feel like, in a way, it's like, especially
when I hear about the persecution beatitude,
it's kind of like a calling in a way of, like,
now go and do, you know, righteous things, follow
me, tell people about me. But we know that there
are so many people who've lost their lives because
they've tried to share the, you know, because
they've shared the gospel. They've lost and had
to sacrifice terrible things. And it's kind of
like... Just ending off with the persecution.
It's not like Jesus is calling us to go and be
persecuted But in another sense, it's kind of
like go and do this But you will be persecuted
and it kind of feels like but he's telling us
to you know, go and There's a cost. Yeah, there's
a cost. There's a Not to go ahead, but I was
looking at the other passage that comes right
after it. Yeah He says like you are the salt
of the earth Yeah, kind of goes through all of
these different analogies of like what it looks
like to be Christian And I just feel like it's
like Jesus saying, be useful. This is what your
usefulness will look like. This is what it will
cost you here and now. But be useful. Do you
know that was a big Christian term years ago?
Yeah. No. Yeah. In like the Puritan kind of setting
and in Baptist world, the best compliment you
can give another Christian is you're a very useful
person. But it means useful for God. Yeah, right.
As a student, I used to have that wrote a whole
PhD dissertation about this particular Baptist
preacher. And I think it was the title was A
Most Useful Man. or something like that. I was
like, that's really interesting. Yeah, be useful.
I love that. It's also very Thomas the Tank Engine
coded. I like Thomas the Tank Engine. I used
to religiously watch that. It'd be a very useful
engine for business. Yeah. Yeah. What is the
point of being powerful if you don't do anything
with it? Salt does nothing if it's not. Like,
it seasons things, right? It enhances the food.
Be useful. I think we're not useful enough, I
don't think, in our world right now. The power
that we do have, even the power that... You can
talk about the origins and all that stuff, but
the power that the institutional church does
have, are we useful in that power? Yeah. I have
another doctoral student that wrote a defense
of the Church of England being an established
church. So, you know, there's two countries in
the world that have an established church or
have a religion established with the government.
It's England and Iran. And he's saying like,
okay, there's all these potentially nefarious
reasons why this relationship exists, but what
if we... Yeah, made it righteous. Yeah, I think
we could do if we did this, right? Yeah, it was
a really interesting argument. Yeah, yeah Because
isn't I Feel like I've just come in with I don't
know the scripture like chapter But it's like
the vague idea like when God says, you know Don't
be like lukewarm, you know, you're either gonna
be hot or you're gonna be cold or I'm gonna spit
you out and I know like This is just what I believe
and I know it's like contested of course, but
like lukewarm is just like when you're not useful.
It's like, if you're going to be one thing, it's
like either be hot or be cold. Cause at least
God can use that for something. Um, but I think
a lot of Christians and my, and myself included,
like we fall into that lukewarm thing of like,
yeah, I believe in God. I, you know, follow Jesus.
And at the same time, like I've, I don't have
any fruit, you know, what is my fruit? Um, and
Not to say that like again persecution is something
that you should, you know attain but those who
have suffered a lot for Jesus like Again not
saying that you should aim for that, but I that
is something that they Have kind of in a way
gain I know there's also like those two guys
in the Bible who are like I think something happened
and something where they were like happy because
they were like, oh we got persecuted for Jesus's
sake Paul in silence. Yeah chillin in prison
Yeah, praise in the Lord. And they were like
happy about that. I always think about that because
I'm like, I feel like being persecuted isn't
a good thing, but they were rejoicing that they
were able to be persecuted for Jesus. And so
that's just like something I struggle with because
it's like. I don't know if it's a good. Because
they got to imitate Jesus. Right. Right. There's
that person Colossians. I fill up in myself the
sufferings of Christ in the flesh. It's like
the more Jesus like I am, the more happy I am.
And I don't think I'm at that point. I hope maybe
one day, I believe. We're all growing into that,
right? But also there's this, like, I don't think
anyone is ever gonna, if someone has arrived,
then God bless them. But I don't think anyone
has. Rob Hirkman's is pretty close, though. Okay.
What a fantastic gentleman. Yes, but... No, no,
I think what you said was... Sorry. No, but I'm
just saying that to say, like, I don't think
any of us, in ourselves, like, when it comes
time for us to make that... Like, I've seen some
things, like, there's moments where I look back
and I'm like, wow, why didn't I stop what I saw?
Why didn't I say something? And it could... And
it's not things that people would say, oh, that's
the Christian thing to do, but... really is the
Christ -like thing to do. If I see someone in
the subway, I think is a great example. Actually,
the other day I saw someone and it got into a
fight. This was a perfect example and it shook
me to my core. See, the two people get into a
fight and the first thing I saw everyone else
in the crowd do is pull out their phones. And
it was actually my very unreligious wife who
slapped someone's hand and said, don't do that.
Don't record on your phone. Why would you do
that? Help them. Let's do something. And yeah,
and she stopped. She didn't stop the fight because
that would have been dangerous. But she intervened
in a way that she could. And I'm there just like,
just like, what am I seeing? Because violence
is horrifying. But yeah, just like do like that
act of doing something like seeing people watch
what people record with their phones was disturbing
for me to see. But I think the fact that she
was able to see that and say, I'm so disturbed
by this. I'm seeing these two people lose their
humanity in this moment, belittle each other.
And I'm not going to just participate or just
witness what is happening. And she stopped and
stopped at least one person from doing what they
were doing. And those are the moments I look
back and I'm like, I didn't do this. I'm the
Christian there. I'm the one that has dedicated
a good chunk of my educational investment into
religious education. And still, I sat there and
I stood there and I froze. And the chemist, the
one that wouldn't consider himself very religious,
was the one that moved and did something. And
that's why I think that term of righteousness,
I think, it opens us up from that label. Because
that label, I think, we get fixated on. blocks
us from doing the right thing, the just thing.
And yeah, like I think we're all growing in that.
I'm just to say that. I think we're all growing
in that. I don't think I'm perfect because I
saw that like two weeks ago and I didn't do anything.
And but but the spirit can move us in those moments
to do something. I love what you said. It's like
don't be Christian, be Christ -like because yeah,
like there's a lot of times where if you have
kind of like that Christian mantle, that Christian
name, you know, I would argue that when the world
hears the word, the name Christian, they don't
think about Jesus. They have a very set image
of what a Christian looks like based off media
and stereotypes and history. But it's like, you
know, it's like, yeah, just be Christ -like.
And that can lead to persecution, but that's
ultimately what we should go for. And I love
that your wife did that. Yeah. God bless her.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, all... All of these things,
all of the attitudes, it is. I think we've said
this a few times, it is both like a thing that
Christ calls us to and a gift that Christ gives
us. Right. It's it's this is the way that you
should be. But also, like, I know you can't get
there on your own. So, like, let me help you.
Yeah. And that's like what following Jesus is
all about. You're never alone. Yeah. Yeah. It's
like Liverpool. You'll never walk alone. Okay.
Sorry. I had to Google that. You're just like
the plethora of like cultural knowledge and quotations
and things. Yeah, I waste a lot of my time consuming
popular culture. And following Jesus, except
that's not Christ. Yeah. Yeah. And reading about
theology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So all of these Beatitudes,
this life that Jesus calls blessed is hard and
beautiful and scary and I think worthwhile. Yes,
I agree worthwhile. Yeah, it's all worth it and
the thing I think is so cool about the Beatitudes
is the fact that it's kind of like Maybe you
know the people that Jesus was speaking to at
the moment. They didn't feel blessed They may
have gone through they may have not gone through
the same situations that current Christians would
be going through now But it's like Jesus saw
obviously he can you know saw the future he first
saw that there would be people who would face
persecution because of they were following him
and I think it would have sucked if there was
no Beatitudes at all. And they were just like,
I'm being persecuted. Now what do I do? Right.
For following Jesus. But Jesus kind of was like
reassuring them from the very beginning of like,
I know this hurts. I know you're being persecuted.
But since you are doing it for me, like, I see
you. I knew this would happen. But I'm here.
Yeah. And that can sometimes just give us the
courage to keep enduring. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Thank you very much, folks, for this whole series
of conversations. It's been fun. Yeah, it's been
great. And thank you for tuning in again to this
week's episode of Trinity Talks. Go back and
read the Beatitudes and just like think about
all of these things that Christ both calls us
to and gives us as a gift. And as you walk through
life in all of its ups and downs, remember that
God is calling us blessed. We'll see you next
week.