WEBVTT

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Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of

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Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla, and I'm so glad

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that you are joining us today. I am really excited

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to be sitting down with Dr. Stephen Chester,

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who is a professor of New Testament at Wycliffe

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College, and his research areas really focus

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on the theology of Paul. how Paul's texts have

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been received throughout history, particularly

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in the Reformation area, as well as focusing

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on conversion in the ancient world and the theological

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interpretation of scripture. So we're going to

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dive in here to talk a little bit about the epistles

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or those letters that are in the New Testament

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and what they have to say to their ancient context,

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but also what they have to say to us today. So

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thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Chester.

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Thank you. It's good to be with you. Yeah. So

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maybe we'll start by just getting to know you

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a little bit more. What prompted you to want

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to study the New Testament or to look at Paul

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and the epistles in particular? Okay. Well, the

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first thing to be said, maybe it was a long time

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ago. Okay. So we're talking here 1991. Okay.

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So 30, 34 years ago. So I was born in the north

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of England. But then when I was 21, I went for

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a year to work for a church in Glasgow in Scotland.

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And through that, I began to feel a call to ministry.

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And it was a Church of Scotland congregation.

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And so I finished up going to study theology

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at the University of Glasgow, which was simply

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the nearest place to where we lived. where you

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could train for Church of Scotland ministry.

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So I was going there to study theology, intending

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to be a parish minister. But I can remember very

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clearly the first class that I took was a class

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on 1 Corinthians. And it was taught by a scholar

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called John Barclay, who was at Glasgow at that

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time. Through that class, I really fell in love

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with studying the New Testament. I think what

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I hadn't realized, because I'd just gone to Glasgow,

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because it was nearest, what I hadn't realized

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was at that time, Glasgow had a particularly

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talented team of New Testament professors. And

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so their teaching was excellent. And this class

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in particular really inspired me. And I think

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what was so compelling about it for me was that

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you felt as if you could begin to understand

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some of the life of the Corinthian congregation

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and some of the challenges they were facing.

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And you could begin to see yourself in their

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place. And therefore, as you began to see yourself

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in their place, you began to have a sense of

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what the text might have to say to Christians

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in subsequent eras like our own. And so I found

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that Very inspiring because 1 Corinthians takes

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you through all the challenges of living and

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witnessing as a community of Jesus' followers.

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You know, in that letter, there's material about

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divisions in the church. There's material about

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sexual ethics and marriage. There's material

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about the challenge of idolatry. There's material

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about worship. including how we should celebrate

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the Lord's Supper and the use of the gifts of

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the Spirit. And all of those practical issues

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about church life are framed at the beginning

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by a powerful reflection from Paul on the meaning

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of the cross, and at the end by a powerful reflection

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on Christ's resurrection and its implications.

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And so there was just something as well about

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that interaction between the theology and the

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practice of the life of the church. And, you

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know, some of the resources that were used in

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that class were Gordon Fee's commentary. So Gordon

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Fee is no longer with us. He died a few years

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ago, but he was a particularly beloved New Testament

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scholar who did great work in building up the

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church. And then there was also a collection

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of essays by a German scholar called Gerd Theissen,

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who had. done a lot of work in thinking about

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the life of the Corinthian congregation and how

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we might use some insights from sociology in

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order to understand what was happening in that

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congregation. And so for me, that was all a heady

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mix that I found really attractive. And then

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I think the other thing is that it struck me

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forcibly that this was a church that was having

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difficulties. Because nobody in the church had

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been a follower of Jesus for more than a few

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years. Right. That this was part of this incredible

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process by which a Jewish movement was reaching

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out to Gentiles. And here in Corinth was Paul

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as a Jewish apostle of Jesus working with a largely

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Gentile congregation. Right. And so the challenge

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is. that they were experiencing were really one

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of the very first episodes of intercultural mission.

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So I was also kind of drawn in by being able

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to see how that's relevant for the life of the

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church in today's world, especially. And I think

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it's often a challenge in how we think about

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the first generation of believers is sometimes

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we read the New Testament epistles. as if they're

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written to people who have a long history with

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the Christian movement. But in fact, in many

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cases, they're written to communities that are

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working all of this out for the very first time.

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And so I found that kind of intriguing and interesting

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as well. So those are some of the things that

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really drew me into New Testament study. And

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to cut a long story short, instead of becoming

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a parish minister, I finished up doing more study.

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And so teaching became my ministry instead. Yeah,

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no, that's really cool. And I think really helpful

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to think about, like, we often think, at least

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I often think of the early church as kind of

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monolithic in some sense. You know, they're just

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the early church. But actually, as you said,

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they are these different cultures, these different

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places. And they're working out the stuff we're

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working out. Yes, that's right. They're having

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to work it out for the first time. And you can

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see some of Paul's frustrations with them. But

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you can also begin to understand when you start

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to think about their social world and you start

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to think about what society was actually like

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in first century Corinth, you begin to realize

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why the Corinthians may have had some of the

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challenges that they faced. they're going wrong

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in various ways right but they're not going wrong

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just because of their own perversity they're

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going wrong because this is actually a challenging

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thing to do to work out how to be the first you

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know kind of gentile followers of jesus right

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it's not a straightforward thing for them yeah

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yeah for sure so you've spent 34 -ish years now

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studying the New Testament and then teaching

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it to students. So are there any common challenges

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or misconceptions that you see as people try

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to read the epistles? Oh, several, I think. Yeah.

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I mean, I think a lot of them arise from the

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fact that these texts are God's word for us.

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Right. but they're not originally written to

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us. They're written to groups of people in a

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very different time and place. And so a lot of

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our challenges in interpretation come from grappling

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with the blessing and the difficulty of the Holy

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Spirit having chosen to work in that way. Because

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effectively, the Spirit is offering ongoing guidance

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to the church. And I'm not saying this kind of

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just Myself, I'm paraphrasing something that

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Pauline scholar Richard Hayes wrote in one of

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his commentaries. You know, the Holy Spirit is

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offering ongoing guidance to the church through

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us effectively reading somebody else's mail.

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And so there are big blessings with that. And

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there are challenges and ways in which we can

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misunderstand. And so one of them, I think, is

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that because we are reading somebody else's mail,

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we're always hearing one side of an interaction.

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And so in order to interpret the text that we

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have, we, with the epistles, have to say things

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or surmise things, work things out about the

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situation into which those letters were speaking.

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And that can go wrong. Sure. And the typical

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way in which it goes wrong, I think, both in

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scholarship and in the life of the church, is

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overreach or being overly confident. So again,

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maybe 1 Corinthians is a good example. In the

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first chapter of 1 Corinthians, Paul talks about

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divisions in the church. And some of them say,

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I belong to Paul. Some of them say, I belong

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to Apollos. Some of them say, I belong to Peter.

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Some of them say, I belong to Christ. And in

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the history of scholarship, there are all kinds

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of overconfident reconstructions of... four battling

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groups in the life of the church at Corinth with

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descriptions of their theologies. And really,

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we just don't know that much. Or you could take

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Paul's letter to the Galatians. It's clear that

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sometime after Paul has left Galatia, there have

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been other Jewish believers who've come along

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and said to... The Gentile churches that Paul

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has established that in order to be authentic

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followers of Jesus, it's necessary for their

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men to be circumcised and for them to become

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obedient to the Mosaic law. And Paul says no.

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Right. And argues passionately against that position.

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But he never names his opponents. Right. And

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beyond the fact that they advocate circumcision,

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he doesn't say very much that enables them. enables

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us to identify more about them than the things

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I've just said. Right. But the history of interpretation

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is littered with attempts to say a great deal

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more in a lot more detail. Sure. And so I think

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there's a challenge for pastors and for late

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Christians, which is that if you're reading you

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know, scholarship that does that, that is overly

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confident in its own capacity to reconstruct

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things, then you can finish up being misled in

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various ways. So on the one hand, we can't avoid

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saying something about the situation to which

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these letters were written. Otherwise, we're

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not really interpreting the text. Or at least

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it becomes very difficult for us to have anything

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very clear to say on the basis of the text. On

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the other hand, we really need to be careful

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in how we do that. Otherwise, we can finish up

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reading in a great deal that isn't necessarily

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true. So I'm actually always quite sympathetic

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in sermons on the epistles when a preacher says,

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it's possible that, or it's probable that, rather

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than presenting something as this was the situation.

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So that kind of, that kind of careful handling

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of God's word so that we don't over -claim certainty

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for our own interpretation or reconstruction

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of the situation of an epistle. I think that

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can be challenging, and it's a way in which sometimes

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things go wrong. And I think it's a really easy

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thing to do, right? Because we're reading...

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paul saying these things and we're saying okay

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well paul is obviously upset about something

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yes or paul is trying to correct or respond to

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something so yeah our minds want to make up the

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other half of that story right yeah and it's

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not even necessarily always just a process of

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making up you know sometimes you can demonstrate

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things that are happening in the life of ancient

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city in the first century to which an epistle

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is written. And you can say, well, this must

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be the background to a particular issue in the

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text. But in fact, these are cities. They're

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not cities necessarily on the scale of our modern

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cities, but they're cities. So there's substantial

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populations. And the believers in Jesus are a

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tiny group within that wider population. And

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so We can't necessarily assume that because something

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is happening in the life of the city, it's having

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a direct impact on the group. Sure. So a good

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example of this and, you know, one that's controversial

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today would be, you know, where we have difficult

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Pauline texts in relation to women in ministry.

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Yeah. Those in favor of women in ministry sometimes

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want to. those texts being of universal application

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by finding something specific about the way in

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which Greco -Roman religion was practiced in

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a particular place that could provide the context

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to Paul wanting to say something specific, limiting

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the role of women in a way that was only intended

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to apply to that particular time and place. Now,

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I should be clear. I believe in the ministry

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of women and in women's ordination and think

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that that's justified on the basis of the New

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Testament texts. But I have doubts about our

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capacity to do those reconstructions with enough

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certainty to make our claim on that basis. My

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argument in favor of women in ministry would

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much more be about... the texts where we can

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see women engaged in ministry in the New Testament

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and the texts where we can see Paul partnering

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with women in the work of the gospel rather than

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on our capacity to explain away the texts that

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we find difficult. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Using those

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like positive examples that we see rather than,

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yeah, looking at trying to prove or argue our

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way out of a particular verse or passage. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. So that's one

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of the challenges that comes with it being, you

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know, the text being written for us, but not

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written to us. Another one would be we need to

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understand something about the social world of

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the New Testament in order to understand the

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advice that's offered. So, for example. the New

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Testament has a lot of advice to offer to slaves.

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Now, there are ways in which the institution

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of slavery in the ancient world was the same

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as our experience of slavery in the early modern

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world. But there are also ways in which the institution

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of slavery in the ancient world was quite different.

00:16:50.769 --> 00:16:54.470
And so it's really important to understand some

00:16:54.470 --> 00:16:58.110
of those things. So, for example, in the ancient

00:16:58.110 --> 00:17:01.879
world, there is no necessary... obvious difference

00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.519
in race between those who were enslaved and those

00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:09.160
who were owning slaves. And so slavery is not

00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.799
directly connected to race in the same way that

00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.279
it was in the early modern world. And that's

00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:19.140
a fundamental difference. And there's a whole

00:17:19.140 --> 00:17:22.099
host of ways in which there are also similarities.

00:17:23.849 --> 00:17:26.890
And none of that is to say that slavery in the

00:17:26.890 --> 00:17:29.930
ancient world was not a bad thing. I mean, everything

00:17:29.930 --> 00:17:32.349
we have, everything we know about it suggests

00:17:32.349 --> 00:17:34.849
it was an oppressive institution in lots of ways.

00:17:35.710 --> 00:17:39.210
But we still need to understand some of the differences

00:17:39.210 --> 00:17:41.769
if we're not going to misconstrue things. Or

00:17:41.769 --> 00:17:46.089
another very good example would be in 1 Corinthians

00:17:46.089 --> 00:17:49.029
7. Paul gives a lot of detailed advice about

00:17:49.029 --> 00:17:54.319
marriage. Now, that advice. has profoundly important

00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.500
things to teach us about marriage today. But

00:17:57.500 --> 00:17:59.259
if we're going to understand what those are,

00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:03.200
we also need to understand the ways in which

00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:05.799
marriage in the first century was different from

00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:08.500
marriage today. Right. Otherwise, we're going

00:18:08.500 --> 00:18:12.819
to misconstrue the advice. Sure. So one of the

00:18:12.819 --> 00:18:18.970
challenges is, you know, Well, maybe it would

00:18:18.970 --> 00:18:20.450
be helpful just to give a couple of examples

00:18:20.450 --> 00:18:22.369
of the ways in which things are different. Yeah,

00:18:22.490 --> 00:18:25.869
for sure. So one of the big ways in which things

00:18:25.869 --> 00:18:30.289
are different is that typically men are significantly

00:18:30.289 --> 00:18:33.150
older than their wives in the ancient world.

00:18:33.849 --> 00:18:39.390
Women marry very young, men don't. And so there's

00:18:39.390 --> 00:18:42.089
that fundamental difference in age dynamics.

00:18:42.869 --> 00:18:45.569
So another group the New Testament is very concerned

00:18:45.569 --> 00:18:49.319
about is widows. There's advice at the end of

00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:53.140
that chapter to widows about remarriage. And

00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:58.119
one of the reasons is that widows are not necessarily

00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:04.579
older women. Because their husbands were significantly

00:19:04.579 --> 00:19:06.980
older than them at the age of marriage, there

00:19:06.980 --> 00:19:08.960
are a lot more younger widows in the ancient

00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:15.890
world. And so that's part of the context. we

00:19:15.890 --> 00:19:20.109
need to understand divorce laws. You know, Paul

00:19:20.109 --> 00:19:23.730
offers some advice about divorce. His fundamental

00:19:23.730 --> 00:19:27.869
concern is to uphold Jesus' teaching that divorce

00:19:27.869 --> 00:19:31.970
is a bad thing and that marriage is something

00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:35.710
holy in the eyes of God. But nevertheless, he's

00:19:35.710 --> 00:19:42.029
got to grapple with the fact that he's got to

00:19:42.029 --> 00:19:44.920
grapple with the fact that in the greco -roman

00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:49.640
world women could legally initiate divorce as

00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.519
well as men okay whereas in the jewish world

00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:55.359
formally speaking at least it was the husband

00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.180
who had to legally initiate divorce so there's

00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:02.619
a difference in context there um and we also

00:20:02.619 --> 00:20:06.019
need to understand ways in which paul is counter

00:20:06.019 --> 00:20:11.990
-cultural in his own world so he emphasizes the

00:20:11.990 --> 00:20:17.789
value of singleness and celibacy. That was not

00:20:17.789 --> 00:20:20.769
something that was highly regarded either in

00:20:20.769 --> 00:20:23.910
Jewish culture at the time or in Greek and Roman

00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:28.670
culture. And so his emphasis on singleness and

00:20:28.670 --> 00:20:31.670
devotion to the Lord is really very significant.

00:20:31.910 --> 00:20:38.519
And that would be something where I think the

00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:40.839
church today also has something to hear from

00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:47.259
this text. Because in our culture, we've got

00:20:47.259 --> 00:20:50.700
two things going on. We've got the fact that

00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:54.099
at the Reformation, the Protestant churches objected

00:20:54.099 --> 00:20:56.859
to compulsory clerical celibacy. And I think

00:20:56.859 --> 00:20:58.539
they were obviously, I think they were right

00:20:58.539 --> 00:21:02.559
about that because Paul's clear that this is

00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:07.480
about gifting. But in the Protestant tradition,

00:21:08.029 --> 00:21:10.970
We've therefore tended to emphasize the value

00:21:10.970 --> 00:21:16.269
of marriage. But actually, in the text, although

00:21:16.269 --> 00:21:21.049
Paul makes it clear that singleness is for those

00:21:21.049 --> 00:21:25.470
who are called to it, he does emphasize the value

00:21:25.470 --> 00:21:27.930
of that calling and its importance in the life

00:21:27.930 --> 00:21:31.089
of the church in a way that we don't necessarily

00:21:31.089 --> 00:21:34.470
do today. And that might be a corrective we need

00:21:34.470 --> 00:21:37.509
to hear. And understanding that Paul was not

00:21:37.509 --> 00:21:40.769
simply repeating what was common in his own time

00:21:40.769 --> 00:21:43.029
and place, but actually composing something quite

00:21:43.029 --> 00:21:46.190
radical can be helpful in letting us see that

00:21:46.190 --> 00:21:48.829
and letting us see how it might apply to us.

00:21:49.049 --> 00:21:54.190
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So we spent a bit

00:21:54.190 --> 00:21:57.920
of time talking about... But Paul isn't the only

00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:02.079
one who wrote letters that have ended up in our

00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:04.900
scriptures. So what are some of the key similarities

00:22:04.900 --> 00:22:08.240
or differences between Paul and other New Testament

00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:16.119
writers? Yeah, well, I think here we need to

00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:20.799
understand that it took a while before the New

00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.440
Testament began to circulate. as the entire new

00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:30.200
testament sure um so we're a few centuries into

00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:32.519
the history of the church before we begin to

00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:35.059
have surviving copies of the entire new testament

00:22:35.059 --> 00:22:37.839
because of to state the obvious before the invention

00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.220
of pre -printing all texts have to be hand copied

00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:44.640
right yeah so what we what we typically have

00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.759
circulating are portions of the New Testament

00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:51.420
in single manuscripts. Okay. And were those mostly

00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:54.619
like whole letters or even just portions of letters?

00:22:55.180 --> 00:22:59.400
Well, they vary. Okay. But typically we have

00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.660
two epistle collections in the New Testament.

00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:04.259
We have the Pauline epistle collection. Okay.

00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:08.960
And then we have the other epistles, which are

00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:13.119
known as the Catholic epistles. Okay. And so

00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:18.730
there are... There are differences. So with Paul's

00:23:18.730 --> 00:23:22.109
13 letters, we know they're all written by him.

00:23:22.250 --> 00:23:26.490
And we know typically which cities they were

00:23:26.490 --> 00:23:29.349
written to or which individuals they were written

00:23:29.349 --> 00:23:35.349
to. With the other epistles, the Catholic epistles,

00:23:35.369 --> 00:23:39.670
so that's the epistles of John, 1st, 2nd, and

00:23:39.670 --> 00:23:45.609
3rd John, 1st and 2nd Peter. and then the letter

00:23:45.609 --> 00:23:51.789
of James and the letter of Jude, we then have

00:23:51.789 --> 00:23:57.730
texts where tradition or the texts themselves

00:23:57.730 --> 00:24:01.250
attach a name to the author, but don't tell us

00:24:01.250 --> 00:24:05.269
anything else. Okay. And where typically we also

00:24:05.269 --> 00:24:09.490
don't know to whom those letters were sent. Right.

00:24:09.569 --> 00:24:13.269
Or if we do. they're sent to a very wide range

00:24:13.269 --> 00:24:17.690
of churches. So 1 Peter, for example, is sent

00:24:17.690 --> 00:24:21.150
to churches scattered over a large area of what

00:24:21.150 --> 00:24:27.849
is now modern -day Turkey. So there is a difference

00:24:27.849 --> 00:24:34.150
in that the other epistles appear much more general.

00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:38.759
And this is why they get the name the Catholic

00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:42.079
epistles. Right. Catholic here being used in

00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:46.380
the sense of universal. Right. Yeah. So in some

00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:51.480
instances in those letters, there clearly were

00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.740
individual situations that prompted their writing.

00:24:54.980 --> 00:24:58.980
But we really have a lot less idea about what

00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:02.380
those situations were than we do with the Pauline

00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:06.920
letters. Right. That's a kind of difference in

00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:11.539
origin. And then there's a very broad difference

00:25:11.539 --> 00:25:15.839
in content, I think. There's a general contrast

00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.819
between Paul's concern to define the nature of

00:25:18.819 --> 00:25:22.220
the gospel and of salvation, especially for Gentiles,

00:25:22.339 --> 00:25:26.119
and the concern of the Catholic epistles with

00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.940
holy living and the right way to behave. Now,

00:25:29.940 --> 00:25:33.039
we can overdo that contrast because there are...

00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:36.180
plenty of ethics in Paul and there's plenty of

00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:39.759
theology in the Catholic epistles, but it works

00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:45.299
as a very general contrast. And it kind of prevents

00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:50.180
any temptation to read Paul in a way that focuses

00:25:50.180 --> 00:25:53.900
only on the message of salvation and says how

00:25:53.900 --> 00:25:58.059
we live doesn't matter. The Catholic epistles

00:25:58.059 --> 00:26:02.680
kind of emphasize very profoundly the importance

00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:09.799
of how Christians live. And so between the two

00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:13.099
collections, they give us a kind of rounded view.

00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:18.980
Sure, yeah. And then, finally, there's an epistle

00:26:18.980 --> 00:26:21.799
that doesn't quite fit in either place. Yes.

00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:27.299
There's Hebrews. Yes. And Hebrews is very interesting.

00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:32.980
Because it's an anonymous text. We don't know

00:26:32.980 --> 00:26:36.819
who wrote it. We don't know to where it was sent.

00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:43.400
And so in those respects, it would seem to fit

00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:46.779
more naturally with the Catholic epistles. Right.

00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:50.880
But in fact, traditionally, for much of the history

00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.480
of the church, it's been thought of as theologically

00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.460
a perfect complement to the Pauline collection.

00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:02.519
Yes. So Hebrews has this kind of dual identity.

00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:05.940
And it's provoked a lot of speculation about

00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:08.500
whether Paul could have written it. But the Greek

00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:11.339
of Hebrews is so different from the Greek of

00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:15.839
Paul's letters that that's quite unlikely. And

00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:22.140
Hebrews itself weaves together theology and ethics

00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:25.480
in a wonderful way all through its argument.

00:27:27.170 --> 00:27:30.730
So it's the text that's a little bit different.

00:27:30.890 --> 00:27:34.470
Sure. But essentially you have Hebrews and you

00:27:34.470 --> 00:27:36.390
have two collections. You have the Pauline collection

00:27:36.390 --> 00:27:38.250
and you have the Catholic epistles collection.

00:27:38.730 --> 00:27:42.710
And with a text like Hebrews and there are other

00:27:42.710 --> 00:27:44.450
epistles, you know, where authorship is a bit

00:27:44.450 --> 00:27:47.990
debated, I guess, like how much weight do you

00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:50.970
place on like figuring out exactly who wrote

00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:54.130
it? Is that really important for us in the church?

00:27:54.309 --> 00:27:59.740
I mean, obviously it has some value, but. I think

00:27:59.740 --> 00:28:02.200
it's natural for us to be curious about it. Of

00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:04.640
course, yeah. Because one of the things we're

00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:10.579
doing in reading is, I think, inevitably kind

00:28:10.579 --> 00:28:13.599
of taking ourselves to this far -off time and

00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:19.000
place so that we can feel the foreignness of

00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.759
the text, but then... Again, I'm kind of paraphrasing

00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:25.619
Richard Hayes. You know, we can hear the foreignness

00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:28.200
of the text, but then allow the text to draw

00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:32.359
near and claim us again and to see how this advice

00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:35.240
offered to people far away kind of speaks to

00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:41.819
us today. So I think it's natural for us to want

00:28:41.819 --> 00:28:46.099
to know as much as we can. Of course. But actually,

00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:51.819
we can't answer this question. We just don't

00:28:51.819 --> 00:28:59.059
have the evidence. And so there may be reasons

00:28:59.059 --> 00:29:02.039
for that. I mean, actually, just yesterday, I

00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:07.539
came across a quote about Hebrews in a new book

00:29:07.539 --> 00:29:09.619
that's been written by the scholar Amy Peeler.

00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:14.180
She says about Hebrews, Hebrews comes to us as

00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:17.559
one unknown, as it has from almost its earliest

00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:21.079
days. And so it provokes an existential encounter.

00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.180
It is the word we hear, not the personality of

00:29:24.180 --> 00:29:26.920
the author, not the identities of the first recipients,

00:29:27.180 --> 00:29:32.180
but the God who speaks therein. And so she kind

00:29:32.180 --> 00:29:34.859
of says, yes, this is not the way the Holy Spirit

00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:38.240
chooses to work with every text. But with Hebrews,

00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:40.839
from her perspective, and I think she's right,

00:29:41.019 --> 00:29:43.640
there is something powerful about the fact that

00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:48.069
this text comes to us in mysterious ways. know

00:29:48.069 --> 00:29:50.410
so little about the author and the first recipients

00:29:50.410 --> 00:29:53.549
yeah it removes some of those additional distractions

00:29:53.549 --> 00:29:56.990
and questions and it just it comes to us as it

00:29:56.990 --> 00:30:02.109
is and god speaks as it is yeah yeah and actually

00:30:02.109 --> 00:30:04.470
although although hebrews clearly is addressing

00:30:04.470 --> 00:30:08.130
a situation although the author is clearly concerned

00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:12.650
about the potential for the first readers to

00:30:12.650 --> 00:30:16.640
drift away from the faith and the author wants

00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:21.380
to strengthen their faith. Apart from that very

00:30:21.380 --> 00:30:27.420
general concern, we don't know much, and clearly

00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:33.779
the text is drafted almost in sermonic form.

00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:39.089
It almost reads like an ancient sermon. or series

00:30:39.089 --> 00:30:41.670
of sermons yeah it would be very long sermon

00:30:41.670 --> 00:30:46.690
but yeah yes that's right uh whereas if you if

00:30:46.690 --> 00:30:50.670
you read some of paul's letters for example it's

00:30:50.670 --> 00:30:53.589
there is this specific situation going on in

00:30:53.589 --> 00:30:55.890
the life of the church yeah or maybe several

00:30:55.890 --> 00:30:58.029
situations going on in the life of the church

00:30:58.029 --> 00:31:02.289
as in first corinthians uh and he paul is feeling

00:31:02.289 --> 00:31:05.369
like he needs to address those specific things

00:31:05.369 --> 00:31:10.289
yeah and and provide people with guidance. But

00:31:10.289 --> 00:31:13.109
in the text like Hebrews, there is this general

00:31:13.109 --> 00:31:16.329
concern with persevering in the faith. But beyond

00:31:16.329 --> 00:31:20.789
that, it's more crafted so that it's sermonic

00:31:20.789 --> 00:31:24.970
in form. And so it's a very different kind of

00:31:24.970 --> 00:31:28.630
reading experience. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So

00:31:28.630 --> 00:31:31.769
all of these different authors that we have in

00:31:31.769 --> 00:31:34.029
the New Testament, we have Paul, we have Peter,

00:31:34.130 --> 00:31:38.000
James, John. I'm going to assume they don't always

00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:42.140
agree. They don't always get along. And in particular,

00:31:42.259 --> 00:31:44.420
I think there's this history maybe that comes

00:31:44.420 --> 00:31:45.940
out of scripture. Maybe it just comes out of

00:31:45.940 --> 00:31:48.700
context that, you know, Peter and Paul especially

00:31:48.700 --> 00:31:52.940
don't always get along. Yeah, so maybe can you

00:31:52.940 --> 00:31:55.740
shed some light on what is behind that and what

00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:58.220
does that sort of tell us about the life of the

00:31:58.220 --> 00:32:02.220
early church? Thank you. Yeah, I think it's a

00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:03.839
really important question. I'm going to say something

00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:06.920
general about it before I come. Paul and Peter

00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:10.759
first. And the general thing I want to say is

00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:16.099
that in some issues, Scripture has one voice.

00:32:16.500 --> 00:32:19.779
So there are certain issues that Scripture just

00:32:19.779 --> 00:32:22.819
says the same thing every time it addresses that

00:32:22.819 --> 00:32:26.720
issue. But there are other issues where there

00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:29.680
is more than one voice within the canon. And

00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:33.019
when that happens, I take that to be part of

00:32:33.019 --> 00:32:35.920
the Holy Spirit's provision. That actually it's

00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:38.059
important that there's more than one voice for

00:32:38.059 --> 00:32:42.480
the church to hear. And sometimes we feel like,

00:32:42.500 --> 00:32:45.160
you know, Scripture can only have one voice.

00:32:45.299 --> 00:32:49.079
But actually, sometimes it's about Scripture

00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:51.740
providing us with a diversity of voices. And

00:32:51.740 --> 00:32:55.220
sometimes it's about Scripture being painfully

00:32:55.220 --> 00:32:59.539
clear about particular issues. So we need to

00:32:59.539 --> 00:33:07.599
allow for that. Paul and Peter, I think there's

00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:11.200
a couple of places where they seem to come into

00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:16.200
tension. The main one is Galatians 2, where Paul

00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:19.880
recounts a quarrel that they had in the church

00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:23.039
in Antioch in Syria. And then, as you say, in

00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:29.269
2 Peter, there's a reference to... There's a

00:33:29.269 --> 00:33:32.089
reference to Paul's letters being difficult and

00:33:32.089 --> 00:33:34.609
being misinterpreted by some people who twist

00:33:34.609 --> 00:33:39.470
them in ways that are not right. So there's clearly

00:33:39.470 --> 00:33:44.250
different tensions there. And that may play out

00:33:44.250 --> 00:33:46.470
over a longer or shorter period because there

00:33:46.470 --> 00:33:48.650
are questions about to Peter and the authorship

00:33:48.650 --> 00:33:51.049
and whether it's written in Peter's own lifetime

00:33:51.049 --> 00:33:53.269
or whether it's somebody else later writing in

00:33:53.269 --> 00:33:57.170
Peter's name. But I think all the challenges,

00:33:57.969 --> 00:34:01.910
arise from the same fundamental issue, which

00:34:01.910 --> 00:34:06.069
is the first followers of Jesus are Jewish. They're

00:34:06.069 --> 00:34:08.289
different from their fellow Jews because they

00:34:08.289 --> 00:34:11.389
believe Jesus is Messiah. But in terms of other

00:34:11.389 --> 00:34:14.070
aspects of their practice, they'll have been

00:34:14.070 --> 00:34:17.289
just as committed as other Jews to obeying all

00:34:17.289 --> 00:34:19.610
the commandments of the Old Testament law. Right.

00:34:20.170 --> 00:34:24.710
But Paul understands himself to have been called

00:34:24.710 --> 00:34:28.130
to be apostle to the Gentiles. Right. take the

00:34:28.130 --> 00:34:31.690
gospel to people who are not Jewish, and he believes

00:34:31.690 --> 00:34:34.610
that they can become authentic followers of Jesus

00:34:34.610 --> 00:34:38.570
without themselves also first having to become

00:34:38.570 --> 00:34:43.010
Jewish. The law doesn't apply to them in the

00:34:43.010 --> 00:34:48.389
same way. Now, the New Testament portrays some

00:34:48.389 --> 00:34:52.670
Jewish Christians as rejecting this view. So

00:34:52.670 --> 00:34:57.059
clearly, Paul's opponents in Galatians actually

00:34:57.059 --> 00:34:59.440
think that the Gentiles need to become Jewish

00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:02.840
in order to be true followers of Jesus. And if

00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:05.559
we read about the council at Jerusalem where

00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:08.960
this issue was debated in Acts 15, at the start

00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:13.480
there, there are some who Luke says belong to

00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.300
the parties of the Pharisees who believe that

00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:19.099
Gentiles need to be circumcised and to obey the

00:35:19.099 --> 00:35:26.079
law of Moses. But Luke also portrays all the

00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:30.340
significant leaders, including Peter, as accepting

00:35:30.340 --> 00:35:33.460
Paul's view that Gentiles don't need to become

00:35:33.460 --> 00:35:39.460
Jewish. However, that agreement doesn't in and

00:35:39.460 --> 00:35:43.960
of itself solve all problems. Sure. Because Jewish

00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:46.559
and Gentile believers still have to work out

00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:50.440
how to live together as one community of believers

00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:54.820
in Christ. If Jewish believers are committed

00:35:54.820 --> 00:35:59.000
to obeying the law, they may accept that Gentile

00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:02.619
believers don't need to, but there may be points

00:36:02.619 --> 00:36:06.460
at which, in their life together, it's difficult

00:36:06.460 --> 00:36:09.380
for Jewish believers fully to obey the law while

00:36:09.380 --> 00:36:12.679
being in close fellowship with the Gentiles who

00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:15.659
are following Jesus. And so this is the probable

00:36:15.659 --> 00:36:19.519
context of the quarrel in the church at Antioch.

00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:25.579
Peter's been eating with Gentiles, but Paul says

00:36:25.579 --> 00:36:28.900
that when certain people came from Jerusalem,

00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:30.920
came from James, the leader of the Jerusalem

00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:35.980
church, the brother of the Lord, Peter withdrew

00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:39.739
and stopped his previous practice of having table

00:36:39.739 --> 00:36:45.360
fellowship with Gentiles. And so Paul is horrified

00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:52.920
and feels that this is... This is excluding the

00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:57.300
Gentiles. It's not clear to us completely whether

00:36:57.300 --> 00:37:05.099
Peter has decided that it's okay to eat food

00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:08.639
that is forbidden by the Old Testament law, and

00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.519
that's what he's been doing in his meals with

00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:14.380
Gentiles, and so that's why he then withdraws,

00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.440
or whether, in fact, he may have been eating

00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:20.449
kosher. But it's the actual practice of eating

00:37:20.449 --> 00:37:24.690
with Gentiles that's a problem. Now, the Old

00:37:24.690 --> 00:37:27.369
Testament law doesn't anywhere prohibit eating

00:37:27.369 --> 00:37:30.789
with Gentiles. But the Old Testament law does

00:37:30.789 --> 00:37:34.070
say, of course, that there's only certain kinds

00:37:34.070 --> 00:37:37.829
of foods that Jews can eat. And there are also

00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:42.010
some things in the Old Testament and then they're

00:37:42.010 --> 00:37:44.329
elaborated in Jewish tradition about how food

00:37:44.329 --> 00:37:48.579
has to be prepared. Right. And so. For a Jewish

00:37:48.579 --> 00:37:53.079
person, it may have been difficult to be certain

00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:55.699
that all those things about which food you eat

00:37:55.699 --> 00:37:57.980
and how they're prepared are being honored if

00:37:57.980 --> 00:38:00.159
you eat with Gentiles. It may have seemed easier

00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.860
to be certain you are being obedient if you just

00:38:02.860 --> 00:38:07.179
simply didn't eat with Gentiles. So the context

00:38:07.179 --> 00:38:11.860
is complicated, but it is clear that from Paul's

00:38:11.860 --> 00:38:18.070
perspective, the problem here is that Gentiles

00:38:18.070 --> 00:38:21.690
are fully believers in Jesus, and they're just

00:38:21.690 --> 00:38:24.849
as much authentic followers of Jesus from Paul's

00:38:24.849 --> 00:38:28.389
perspective as anybody else. And yet he feels

00:38:28.389 --> 00:38:32.150
that by withdrawing, Peter is implying that they're

00:38:32.150 --> 00:38:36.809
not. And for Paul, this is kind of incompatible

00:38:36.809 --> 00:38:39.949
with his whole call to be apostle to the Gentiles,

00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:45.630
and it constitutes some kind of betrayal of the

00:38:45.630 --> 00:38:50.239
gospel. And that's very interesting. He talks

00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:53.480
about Peter and the others, you know, having

00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:57.820
failed to walk in line with the truth. And so

00:38:57.820 --> 00:39:02.659
they may have seen this issue as a practical

00:39:02.659 --> 00:39:07.289
pastoral issue. And they may have seen it as

00:39:07.289 --> 00:39:10.309
very important in terms of their standing with

00:39:10.309 --> 00:39:13.289
other Jewish Christians and very important in

00:39:13.289 --> 00:39:15.289
terms of the relationship of Jewish Christians

00:39:15.289 --> 00:39:21.449
with other Jews. But Paul construes it as a dispute

00:39:21.449 --> 00:39:25.550
about how people are accepted by God and put

00:39:25.550 --> 00:39:29.829
right with God, how they're justified, the term

00:39:29.829 --> 00:39:34.030
he uses. And he accuses those who disagree with

00:39:34.030 --> 00:39:37.309
him. of putting something else alongside faith

00:39:37.309 --> 00:39:40.949
in Jesus as a requirement for being justified,

00:39:41.190 --> 00:39:45.070
of being authentic followers of Jesus. So whether

00:39:45.070 --> 00:39:50.750
Peter and the others saw it as a question of

00:39:50.750 --> 00:39:52.710
the fundamental nature of the gospel or not,

00:39:52.929 --> 00:39:56.889
Paul does see it in those terms. And this is

00:39:56.889 --> 00:40:00.030
one of the reasons why those letters, Galatians

00:40:00.030 --> 00:40:04.750
especially, have always been ones that, Christians

00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:06.989
have reached for down the centuries when they've

00:40:06.989 --> 00:40:09.349
been debating issues to do with the fundamental

00:40:09.349 --> 00:40:13.929
nature of the gospel. The Paul sees this as a

00:40:13.929 --> 00:40:20.409
question that's about that. Are you put right

00:40:20.409 --> 00:40:23.289
with God purely through faith in Jesus, or is

00:40:23.289 --> 00:40:25.170
there something else necessary that has to be

00:40:25.170 --> 00:40:28.289
put alongside of that? And he's very concerned

00:40:28.289 --> 00:40:31.750
to say, no, it's faith in Jesus alone that counts.

00:40:32.829 --> 00:40:35.130
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, like, just as you

00:40:35.130 --> 00:40:37.809
were describing these different approaches, I

00:40:37.809 --> 00:40:40.869
even was in some ways drawn back to that distinction

00:40:40.869 --> 00:40:42.909
that you made earlier between the Pauline epistles

00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:45.309
and the Catholic epistles, where Paul is very

00:40:45.309 --> 00:40:48.730
concerned about theological issues, whereas,

00:40:48.929 --> 00:40:52.630
you know, Peter, I tend to see Peter, and maybe

00:40:52.630 --> 00:40:54.230
this is just my perspective, but I tend to see

00:40:54.230 --> 00:40:57.630
Peter as a little more pastoral, and Peter is,

00:40:57.650 --> 00:41:02.179
or Paul, rather, is a little more academic. Yeah,

00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:05.739
I mean, I think if you take 1 Peter, there is

00:41:05.739 --> 00:41:09.920
a rich theology in that text. But you're right,

00:41:10.019 --> 00:41:13.340
there's not a debate about the nature of the

00:41:13.340 --> 00:41:18.460
gospel. But 1 Peter is more, we know what the

00:41:18.460 --> 00:41:22.880
gospel is. How does that work out in terms of

00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:27.699
how we live as followers of Jesus in a culture

00:41:27.699 --> 00:41:31.530
that we're now... to some degree, alienated from

00:41:31.530 --> 00:41:37.670
because we're following Jesus as Gentiles. And

00:41:37.670 --> 00:41:41.250
again, 1 Peter is clearly written to largely

00:41:41.250 --> 00:41:44.570
Gentile churches. They're following Jesus as

00:41:44.570 --> 00:41:49.010
Gentiles, but that puts them at odds with some

00:41:49.010 --> 00:41:51.269
of the most profound assumptions of their society

00:41:51.269 --> 00:41:55.110
about religion and some of the most profound

00:41:55.110 --> 00:41:57.309
assumptions of their society about how social

00:41:57.309 --> 00:42:02.219
life works. And so the kind of controlling image

00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:06.219
in 1 Peter is the image of being a resident alien

00:42:06.219 --> 00:42:10.619
or an exile. And of course, the believers that

00:42:10.619 --> 00:42:13.579
received the letter haven't gone anywhere. They're

00:42:13.579 --> 00:42:16.420
probably living where they've always lived. But

00:42:16.420 --> 00:42:21.679
because they have accepted Jesus, they're now

00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:23.900
living in a very different way from the surrounding

00:42:23.900 --> 00:42:26.960
culture. And 1 Peter is about how do we grapple

00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:30.070
with that? So in the process, there is plenty

00:42:30.070 --> 00:42:33.210
of theology, but it has this practical pastoral

00:42:33.210 --> 00:42:37.889
edge. And it is somewhat different from what

00:42:37.889 --> 00:42:41.230
we see in Paul, where there is this grappling

00:42:41.230 --> 00:42:43.349
with the nature of the gospel in the context

00:42:43.349 --> 00:42:48.710
of the earliest Gentile missions. Yeah. And I

00:42:48.710 --> 00:42:50.170
think the other thing that sort of stands out

00:42:50.170 --> 00:42:52.730
to me about that discussion is, again, that we

00:42:52.730 --> 00:42:55.769
are dealing with different cultures here, right?

00:42:55.809 --> 00:42:57.690
Like we're dealing with... the Jewish culture

00:42:57.690 --> 00:43:00.530
and the Gentile culture. And those aren't just

00:43:00.530 --> 00:43:03.809
religious differences. They are actually cultural

00:43:03.809 --> 00:43:08.010
differences, which then I think helps us in the

00:43:08.010 --> 00:43:10.969
Canadian church where Canada is such a multicultural

00:43:10.969 --> 00:43:14.630
place, right? It then helps us to say, oh, like

00:43:14.630 --> 00:43:17.949
Paul and Peter and all of these people are speaking

00:43:17.949 --> 00:43:20.869
to our context, not in exactly the same way.

00:43:20.889 --> 00:43:22.789
We're not talking about exactly the same cultures,

00:43:22.829 --> 00:43:26.260
but it is about how do we bridge? culture and

00:43:26.260 --> 00:43:29.400
the gospel and create some sort of church that

00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:34.840
gets along well enough i guess yeah yeah so there's

00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:39.619
uh there's interesting things for us to learn

00:43:39.619 --> 00:43:44.300
there i think um you you're right it it's directly

00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:50.840
relevant in that way um so we have to both hear

00:43:50.840 --> 00:43:56.440
paul's insistence that people don't need to become

00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:58.260
Jewish in order to be authentic followers of

00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:01.440
Jesus. In other words, we have to hear his insistence

00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:06.960
that there is not something that makes people

00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:13.960
closer to God simply by virtue of their identity

00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:20.000
or their cultural tradition. So that's one side

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:23.760
of it. But the piece that that has to be balanced

00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:26.650
with, that we sometimes miss in the contemporary

00:44:26.650 --> 00:44:34.869
church is that it's also true that the people

00:44:34.869 --> 00:44:39.989
of Israel are chosen by God. And so their culture

00:44:39.989 --> 00:44:44.510
is shaped by God's law and the principles that

00:44:44.510 --> 00:44:47.489
are expressed in the Old Testament. And although

00:44:47.489 --> 00:44:52.050
Paul is insistent that Gentiles don't need to

00:44:52.050 --> 00:44:56.780
become Jewish, For a casual observer of Paul's

00:44:56.780 --> 00:45:00.099
congregations in the first century, there are

00:45:00.099 --> 00:45:03.480
various aspects of how they behave that would

00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:06.800
have looked from a Gentile perspective as if

00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:09.139
they were becoming very Jewish in certain aspects

00:45:09.139 --> 00:45:15.280
of their practice. So first of all, there's their

00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:17.679
devotion to the scriptures of Israel, what we

00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:21.960
now call the Old Testament. And then there's

00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:25.989
their ethical practices. The kind of teaching

00:45:25.989 --> 00:45:31.269
about the holiness of marriage, the undesirability

00:45:31.269 --> 00:45:37.210
of divorce, practices within marriage, all of

00:45:37.210 --> 00:45:42.170
that is much more Jewish in flavor in the New

00:45:42.170 --> 00:45:45.010
Testament than anything that you would find in

00:45:45.010 --> 00:45:49.250
Greco -Roman society. Sure. So there are whole

00:45:49.250 --> 00:45:56.119
strands of... identity and behavior where Gentiles

00:45:56.119 --> 00:45:59.840
begin to take on Jewish practices. The other

00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:03.599
big one, of course, is what the New Testament

00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:09.400
calls idolatry. Because Greco -Roman religion

00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:17.199
had many deities and Judaism believed in one

00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:21.039
God. And Judaism was unusual in the ancient world

00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:24.860
in worshipping only one God. And of course, from

00:46:24.860 --> 00:46:31.019
the very start, although Christians develop the

00:46:31.019 --> 00:46:35.159
concept of the Trinity and see Jesus as part

00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:41.480
of that one God, they never compromise on that

00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:45.199
kind of commitment to worshipping only one God.

00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:52.039
Right. On the one hand, there is this kind of

00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:59.500
insistence that we can't prioritize one ethnic

00:46:59.500 --> 00:47:05.059
identity or one tradition in a way that excludes

00:47:05.059 --> 00:47:08.519
other people. But on the other hand, there is

00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:10.559
a profound recognition of Israel's election.

00:47:11.179 --> 00:47:14.079
And the fact that there are features of the life

00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:16.219
of Israel which are to become features of the

00:47:16.219 --> 00:47:20.099
life of the church, which represent God's will

00:47:20.099 --> 00:47:24.940
for human beings. Right. And at some points in

00:47:24.940 --> 00:47:27.739
the past, the church has not been very good at

00:47:27.739 --> 00:47:30.760
hearing the first half of that, which is the

00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:34.579
kind of radical inclusiveness of the gospel.

00:47:35.699 --> 00:47:39.349
But in our contemporary world. precisely because

00:47:39.349 --> 00:47:42.329
we do live in societies that are so multicultural.

00:47:43.369 --> 00:47:47.210
We often tend to be able to hear the piece about

00:47:47.210 --> 00:47:50.050
the radical inclusivity of the gospel, but sometimes

00:47:50.050 --> 00:47:52.150
we're less able to hear some of the specific

00:47:52.150 --> 00:47:56.150
things that the New Testament says. First Peter,

00:47:56.269 --> 00:47:57.949
again, would be a good example. First Peter,

00:47:58.070 --> 00:48:00.269
at one point, talks to the Gentile believers

00:48:00.269 --> 00:48:02.809
about them having left behind the worthless way

00:48:02.809 --> 00:48:04.610
of life they inherited from their ancestors.

00:48:05.289 --> 00:48:09.920
It is not it is not particularly accepting or

00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:14.559
welcoming of Gentile culture because it sees

00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:17.019
it as leading people away from God's purposes

00:48:17.019 --> 00:48:21.139
in various ways. So there's that two -sidedness

00:48:21.139 --> 00:48:23.599
to the New Testament's witness, and we need to

00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:28.880
hear both sides. Yeah, it's not that the culture

00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:31.699
in and of itself is the problem. It's the way

00:48:31.699 --> 00:48:34.199
that the culture potentially leads you away from

00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:37.960
God and the way that following Jesus, might call

00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:40.079
you to leave behind some pieces of your culture,

00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:43.019
but not because of the culture of them, but because

00:48:43.019 --> 00:48:46.659
the way of Jesus is so radically different. Yes,

00:48:46.820 --> 00:48:50.760
and I think the other thing we don't often understand

00:48:50.760 --> 00:48:55.619
is the magnitude of all of this, given that they're

00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:59.260
not living in a world where religion is perceived

00:48:59.260 --> 00:49:03.039
as a private choice. We live in a world that

00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:08.280
construes religion as one sphere of life. And,

00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:11.679
you know, it's a sphere of life where we value

00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:14.039
the capacity of individuals to make decisions

00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:16.179
for themselves and to go in different directions.

00:49:16.940 --> 00:49:19.920
And there are good reasons for that. But the

00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:23.519
ancient world is very different. And so for the

00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:26.559
first Christians, particularly if they're Gentile,

00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:30.920
when they take the step of ceasing to worship

00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:35.789
the deities of their particular city, or their

00:49:35.789 --> 00:49:39.369
particular community or step out of practices

00:49:39.369 --> 00:49:43.070
that have been hallowed by the traditions of

00:49:43.070 --> 00:49:45.730
their particular ancestors then other people

00:49:45.730 --> 00:49:48.250
in their community may have reacted very negatively

00:49:48.250 --> 00:49:53.090
to that not just because they perceive it as

00:49:53.090 --> 00:49:57.849
a a kind of insult to their identity but also

00:49:57.849 --> 00:50:00.489
because they will have believed that the well

00:50:00.489 --> 00:50:03.909
-being of the human community The gathering in

00:50:03.909 --> 00:50:07.010
of the harvest, the prospering of their trade,

00:50:07.190 --> 00:50:10.190
that all of that depended upon the favor of the

00:50:10.190 --> 00:50:15.070
gods. And so from their perspective, by refusing

00:50:15.070 --> 00:50:18.469
to worship those gods, the early followers of

00:50:18.469 --> 00:50:20.530
Jesus may have been doing something dangerous

00:50:20.530 --> 00:50:22.849
that put the welfare of the community at risk.

00:50:23.710 --> 00:50:27.449
So they're living in a world where they're doing

00:50:27.449 --> 00:50:29.889
something very radical by committing themselves

00:50:29.889 --> 00:50:34.320
to following. the God of Israel with Jesus as

00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:39.139
Messiah. So the other part of your research has

00:50:39.139 --> 00:50:41.480
been looking at how some of these letters and

00:50:41.480 --> 00:50:43.920
Paul's writings have been interpreted throughout

00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:48.440
history, the history of the church beyond the

00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:51.960
early church. So are there any sort of key differences

00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:55.900
between how Paul was understood maybe in the

00:50:55.900 --> 00:50:58.519
Reformation era versus how Paul is understood

00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:04.260
now? Yeah, we live in a time of enormous debate

00:51:04.260 --> 00:51:09.599
about how to interpret Paul, especially. So,

00:51:09.780 --> 00:51:13.920
you know, the simplest way of putting this is

00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:17.539
to say that although, of course, there are enormous

00:51:17.539 --> 00:51:20.320
varieties in how people have interpreted Paul's

00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:24.940
texts across time, broadly speaking, for 500

00:51:24.940 --> 00:51:28.190
years following the Reformation, the interpretation

00:51:28.190 --> 00:51:31.550
of Paul follows trajectories that were established

00:51:31.550 --> 00:51:36.150
through the work of Martin Luther. Okay. In very

00:51:36.150 --> 00:51:40.389
broad terms. But then from the late 1970s onwards,

00:51:40.530 --> 00:51:43.650
we get a re -evaluation of Paul, which is called

00:51:43.650 --> 00:51:48.710
the new perspective, which wants to say that,

00:51:48.730 --> 00:51:51.289
in fact, Luther misunderstood Paul in very significant

00:51:51.289 --> 00:51:55.349
ways and that we have to interpret Paul in...

00:51:55.710 --> 00:52:01.489
in a radically new way and you know that's now

00:52:01.489 --> 00:52:06.030
what 45 almost 50 years ago the new perspective

00:52:06.030 --> 00:52:10.429
originates um and there are there are now ways

00:52:10.429 --> 00:52:14.050
in which there are uh you know various movements

00:52:14.050 --> 00:52:16.989
in interpretation that go on from the new perspective

00:52:16.989 --> 00:52:21.170
and they may you know disagree among themselves

00:52:21.170 --> 00:52:24.010
as as well as with traditional ways of interpretation

00:52:24.809 --> 00:52:28.409
But nevertheless, there is that turning point,

00:52:28.550 --> 00:52:33.090
that big change. And the nature of the change

00:52:33.090 --> 00:52:37.429
is really to do with how people perceive Judaism

00:52:37.429 --> 00:52:40.230
in the time of Jesus and his first followers.

00:52:42.469 --> 00:52:46.809
In the past, Judaism was often perceived as a

00:52:46.809 --> 00:52:51.650
religion of legalism, and Christianity was contrasted

00:52:51.650 --> 00:52:55.429
with it as a religion of grace. And really what

00:52:55.429 --> 00:52:58.030
the new perspective did was to recognize the

00:52:58.030 --> 00:53:02.130
second temple Judaism. It's often called second

00:53:02.130 --> 00:53:06.449
temple Judaism because it's the time or the era

00:53:06.449 --> 00:53:10.630
of the temple as it was rebuilt following the

00:53:10.630 --> 00:53:15.789
return from the exile. Right. Babylon. So it's

00:53:15.789 --> 00:53:18.269
not the first temple of Solomon. It's the second

00:53:18.269 --> 00:53:20.190
temple following the exile. The post -exile temple.

00:53:20.429 --> 00:53:25.610
Yeah. So in that era, In Jewish texts, there's

00:53:25.610 --> 00:53:27.949
actually plenty of evidence of an emphasis on

00:53:27.949 --> 00:53:31.889
grace. Why does that matter for the interpretation

00:53:31.889 --> 00:53:36.110
of Paul? Well, when Paul says, as he does several

00:53:36.110 --> 00:53:38.929
times, that justification is not by works of

00:53:38.929 --> 00:53:42.869
the law, but by faith in Jesus. Traditionally,

00:53:42.889 --> 00:53:46.349
he was understood to be saying, it's not through

00:53:46.349 --> 00:53:49.889
your own efforts. It's not through this kind

00:53:49.889 --> 00:53:53.849
of legalism. where you spend your life trying

00:53:53.849 --> 00:53:57.130
to put him to practice the works of the law.

00:53:57.269 --> 00:54:00.650
And if you succeed, then you're justified before

00:54:00.650 --> 00:54:04.610
God. But if you fail too much, then you're not

00:54:04.610 --> 00:54:12.090
justified. And so that had been broadly what

00:54:12.090 --> 00:54:15.809
Paul had been taken to mean. And the new perspective

00:54:15.809 --> 00:54:18.849
wants to say, but hold on a minute. If Jewish

00:54:18.849 --> 00:54:21.469
texts at the time actually emphasized grace,

00:54:21.789 --> 00:54:24.809
that can't be what Paul means. He must mean something

00:54:24.809 --> 00:54:31.670
else. And so the New Perspective argued that

00:54:31.670 --> 00:54:34.170
when Paul says justification is not by works

00:54:34.170 --> 00:54:36.809
of the law, he's particularly concerned with

00:54:36.809 --> 00:54:40.369
the practices of the law that mark the boundary

00:54:40.369 --> 00:54:44.389
between Jews and Gentiles. So he's particularly

00:54:44.389 --> 00:54:46.610
concerned with the practice of circumcision for

00:54:46.610 --> 00:54:50.139
men. with the practice of food laws, and with

00:54:50.139 --> 00:54:52.940
the practice of Sabbath observance. Because these

00:54:52.940 --> 00:54:57.460
are all things that Jews did that Gentiles didn't

00:54:57.460 --> 00:55:01.480
do, and therefore all things that functioned

00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:04.019
as a kind of boundary marker between the two

00:55:04.019 --> 00:55:08.099
groups and served to maintain Jewish distinctiveness.

00:55:08.380 --> 00:55:14.760
And so New Perspective scholars like James Dunn

00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:20.710
and Tom Wright and E .P. Sanders, they argued

00:55:20.710 --> 00:55:26.409
that instead, Paul is really saying, well, you're

00:55:26.409 --> 00:55:28.489
not justified by works of the law. You're not

00:55:28.489 --> 00:55:30.789
justified by these boundary markers. You're not

00:55:30.789 --> 00:55:33.889
justified by maintaining Jewish distinctiveness.

00:55:35.150 --> 00:55:37.710
That maintaining of Jewish distinctiveness may

00:55:37.710 --> 00:55:39.690
be important in various other ways, but it's

00:55:39.690 --> 00:55:44.010
not important in terms of your being put right

00:55:44.010 --> 00:55:47.639
before God. Right. And so what that new perspective

00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:51.420
movement did was to change people's sense of

00:55:51.420 --> 00:55:55.639
what Paul is opposed to. Because in the traditional

00:55:55.639 --> 00:55:59.039
view, Paul's preaching of the gospel was opposed

00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.079
to legalism or the idea that we could earn our

00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:04.699
own salvation. Right. Whereas in a new perspective

00:56:04.699 --> 00:56:10.639
view, Paul's gospel is opposed to the idea that

00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:15.679
being Jewish. is an essential part of what it

00:56:15.679 --> 00:56:19.340
means to be justified before God. And therefore,

00:56:19.579 --> 00:56:22.679
Paul is not opposing legalism. He's opposing

00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:26.119
a kind of ethnocentrism. Okay. Yeah. And then

00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:29.239
I think that then also sort of reinforces this

00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:32.400
idea of Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles specifically,

00:56:32.900 --> 00:56:39.920
right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So, I mean,

00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:41.360
there's a question about how you would evaluate

00:56:41.360 --> 00:56:46.860
that. And this change has been widely controversial

00:56:46.860 --> 00:56:51.599
within Pauline studies. So lots of scholars would

00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:54.820
have different viewpoints. But in terms of how

00:56:54.820 --> 00:56:58.519
I think about it, I would say there's been a

00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:00.559
big gain and a big loss with the new perspective.

00:57:00.860 --> 00:57:07.440
The big gain is a more positive evaluation of

00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:11.980
Judaism in the time of Jesus. Because there were

00:57:11.980 --> 00:57:16.320
certain obvious dangers with Judaism being characterized

00:57:16.320 --> 00:57:21.280
as a narrow -minded religion of legalism. Number

00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:25.719
one, there's a sad and very long history of Christian

00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:29.199
anti -Semitism where that kind of attitude on

00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:32.420
the part of the churches feeds into creating

00:57:32.420 --> 00:57:35.539
an environment where it's particularly in European

00:57:35.539 --> 00:57:38.320
society. creating an environment where it's okay

00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:40.559
for Jews to be discriminated against in various

00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:46.619
ways. So there's that long, unfortunate history.

00:57:47.539 --> 00:57:55.400
But there's also the fact that the kind of legalism

00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:58.000
that's being talked about is a legalism that's

00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:01.960
based on what we call the Old Testament. It's

00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:06.860
a legalism that's based on portion of what is

00:58:06.860 --> 00:58:12.360
God's Word to us. So, you know, yes, we may suppose

00:58:12.360 --> 00:58:16.599
the ancient Jews got the interpretation of the

00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:21.679
text wrong in various ways, but the idea that

00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:28.829
the whole kind of legal structure around which

00:58:28.829 --> 00:58:31.269
Judaism was organized was some kind of fundamental

00:58:31.269 --> 00:58:35.309
mistake. That's a very odd idea for people who

00:58:35.309 --> 00:58:38.969
believe in the Old Testament as God's word. It's

00:58:38.969 --> 00:58:44.030
a very odd idea for people to propose. So there's

00:58:44.030 --> 00:58:49.269
a big gain there, but there's also a loss. There's

00:58:49.269 --> 00:58:54.070
a loss because, in fact, what the reformers actually

00:58:54.070 --> 00:58:57.230
said about these issues was not quite as simple.

00:58:57.610 --> 00:59:01.650
as what i've just described sure so so yes they

00:59:01.650 --> 00:59:05.289
do think that when paul says no to the works

00:59:05.289 --> 00:59:08.929
of the law he is saying no to attempts to earn

00:59:08.929 --> 00:59:12.150
our own righteousness but they have a rather

00:59:12.150 --> 00:59:14.590
more sophisticated view about how that relates

00:59:14.590 --> 00:59:17.869
to the old testament law than than it had typically

00:59:17.869 --> 00:59:23.250
become in modern scholarship okay um and and

00:59:23.250 --> 00:59:27.860
secondly i think i would say You know, if you

00:59:27.860 --> 00:59:33.139
think about the boundary marker view, why do

00:59:33.139 --> 00:59:37.239
boundaries matter? Boundaries matter in the Old

00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:42.460
Testament, not so much for their own sake, but

00:59:42.460 --> 00:59:45.619
in order to preserve Israel's capacity to be

00:59:45.619 --> 00:59:49.420
able to devote herself to obedience to God, to

00:59:49.420 --> 00:59:52.940
be able to prevent Israel from being drawn into

00:59:52.940 --> 00:59:55.860
sin. by adopting practices from the surrounding

00:59:55.860 --> 00:59:58.719
societies that were incompatible with obeying

00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:06.199
God. And so those boundary markers function as

01:00:06.199 --> 01:00:11.099
a dividing line between a way of life with Jews

01:00:11.099 --> 01:00:14.739
that is oriented around fulfilling and obeying

01:00:14.739 --> 01:00:18.460
God's commandments and a way of life in various

01:00:18.460 --> 01:00:24.170
Gentile cultures that is very different. The

01:00:24.170 --> 01:00:26.909
boundary markers are not just communal boundary

01:00:26.909 --> 01:00:29.449
markers. They're also boundary markers between

01:00:29.449 --> 01:00:33.750
holiness and a way of life that's different.

01:00:34.409 --> 01:00:40.349
And so I don't think that Paul is always, when

01:00:40.349 --> 01:00:42.269
he talks about the works of the law, protesting

01:00:42.269 --> 01:00:45.170
against the idea that we can earn our own righteousness.

01:00:45.730 --> 01:00:49.949
But I do think that in that kind of context,

01:00:50.269 --> 01:00:56.849
it is natural. if you're Jewish, to understand

01:00:56.849 --> 01:01:01.349
your own practices as righteous and Gentile practices

01:01:01.349 --> 01:01:04.909
as unrighteous. And so I do think there are occasions

01:01:04.909 --> 01:01:09.070
where Paul is saying, hold on a minute, we're

01:01:09.070 --> 01:01:11.250
right about Gentile practices. These are not

01:01:11.250 --> 01:01:14.809
the things we're supposed to do. But let us not

01:01:14.809 --> 01:01:18.889
imagine that. you know, our attempts to obey

01:01:18.889 --> 01:01:21.190
the law actually can establish ourselves before

01:01:21.190 --> 01:01:23.909
God. We're always fundamentally dependent upon

01:01:23.909 --> 01:01:28.789
God's grace. And so I think he does emphasize

01:01:28.789 --> 01:01:34.190
grace alone in a way that other Jews of his time

01:01:34.190 --> 01:01:37.050
may not have done, which doesn't mean that they

01:01:37.050 --> 01:01:41.150
didn't think grace was important, but that they

01:01:41.150 --> 01:01:45.059
thought about God's grace in electing Israel

01:01:45.059 --> 01:01:49.440
as being answered by Israel's obedience and by

01:01:49.440 --> 01:01:52.400
Israel's efforts to put into practice God's will.

01:01:52.940 --> 01:01:56.800
Whereas Paul, I think, partly on the basis of

01:01:56.800 --> 01:01:59.000
his own experience of having fallen into the

01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:01.760
sin of persecuting the church, is wanting to

01:02:01.760 --> 01:02:06.179
say, no, you know, if we could do all the law

01:02:06.179 --> 01:02:08.800
commanded, that would be fine. But in fact, we're

01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:14.440
not able to. And so we need to recognize that

01:02:14.440 --> 01:02:17.219
we're dependent on grace alone in a way that

01:02:17.219 --> 01:02:22.719
we perhaps otherwise wouldn't have realized.

01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:27.300
And that radical, total grace is what comes to

01:02:27.300 --> 01:02:30.860
us in Jesus from Paul's perspective. Yeah, no,

01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:35.030
I think that's really helpful because it... For

01:02:35.030 --> 01:02:36.610
me, this conversation has been really helpful

01:02:36.610 --> 01:02:39.530
to sort of balance out who Paul is. You know,

01:02:39.550 --> 01:02:42.010
like I feel like we often fall into this trap

01:02:42.010 --> 01:02:45.829
of, yeah, Paul is the theologian. Paul is the

01:02:45.829 --> 01:02:49.530
guy who sort of sets some rules, but also says,

01:02:49.550 --> 01:02:51.889
you know, like that our faith doesn't depend

01:02:51.889 --> 01:02:54.769
on those rules. But yeah, this has been really

01:02:54.769 --> 01:02:57.469
helpful to sort of think about how he interacts

01:02:57.469 --> 01:03:00.389
with the life of the church and not just with.

01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:04.840
you know pen on paper yeah yeah yeah so i mean

01:03:04.840 --> 01:03:06.679
i think this is another thing that's really important

01:03:06.679 --> 01:03:09.179
to understand about paul and you make a really

01:03:09.179 --> 01:03:14.840
helpful point there um he he is saying that we're

01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:18.599
not justified before god by our own efforts of

01:03:18.599 --> 01:03:22.119
right behavior yeah that doesn't mean that for

01:03:22.119 --> 01:03:26.300
him right behavior is unimportant yes what it

01:03:26.300 --> 01:03:30.539
what it means is that our capacity to engage

01:03:30.539 --> 01:03:35.079
in that right behavior, in Paul's view, flows

01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:37.320
from the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

01:03:37.460 --> 01:03:43.539
And so what's so important about that being put

01:03:43.539 --> 01:03:48.820
right with God through Jesus is that it, number

01:03:48.820 --> 01:03:52.539
one, brings forgiveness, but number two also

01:03:52.539 --> 01:03:56.000
brings with it the gift of the Holy Spirit. And

01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:58.139
therefore, from Paul's perspective, the capacity

01:03:58.139 --> 01:04:02.460
to begin to put into practice the behavior that's

01:04:02.460 --> 01:04:05.179
consistent with God's will and that therefore

01:04:05.179 --> 01:04:07.280
produces the fruits of the Spirit in people's

01:04:07.280 --> 01:04:12.280
lives. So it's not at all that right behavior

01:04:12.280 --> 01:04:15.860
is not important to him or that it can be set

01:04:15.860 --> 01:04:20.199
aside. It's rather that for him, right behavior

01:04:20.199 --> 01:04:23.449
flows as a consequence of being. put right with

01:04:23.449 --> 01:04:27.489
God through faith in Jesus rather than as a precondition

01:04:27.489 --> 01:04:29.769
for being put right with God through faith in

01:04:29.769 --> 01:04:34.750
Jesus. Simply because I think in his view, our

01:04:34.750 --> 01:04:37.409
quote unquote attempts at good behavior could

01:04:37.409 --> 01:04:40.110
never actually be good when measured against

01:04:40.110 --> 01:04:43.670
the goodness of God. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

01:04:43.769 --> 01:04:46.150
Well, thank you so much for taking some time,

01:04:46.190 --> 01:04:48.329
sharing some of your knowledge with us. Like

01:04:48.329 --> 01:04:49.929
I said, I think this has been a really helpful

01:04:49.929 --> 01:04:53.300
conversation for us. as followers of Jesus to

01:04:53.300 --> 01:04:56.679
understand how we read scripture and to understand

01:04:56.679 --> 01:04:59.900
the real people and real messy situations that

01:04:59.900 --> 01:05:02.960
gave us this sort of scripture in the first place.

01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:07.139
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I've enjoyed it. And I,

01:05:07.260 --> 01:05:10.079
yeah. And I think that is, that is an important

01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:14.500
thing. You know, the, the texts, the texts are

01:05:14.500 --> 01:05:18.400
God's word to us. They're, they're inspired by

01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:21.840
the Holy Spirit. but they're inspired by the

01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:27.059
Holy Spirit through ordinary people like us who

01:05:27.059 --> 01:05:32.480
2 ,000 years ago were grappling with these messy

01:05:32.480 --> 01:05:36.940
practical problems. And so Scripture emerges

01:05:36.940 --> 01:05:41.320
for us as God's Word in the midst of all those

01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:45.519
human difficulties and challenges. And so if

01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:49.210
we're looking for something that kind of floats

01:05:49.210 --> 01:05:55.250
down from heaven and provides us with this kind

01:05:55.250 --> 01:05:59.150
of voice that simply and easily solves all problems,

01:05:59.429 --> 01:06:02.650
then we are going to be disappointed. But on

01:06:02.650 --> 01:06:05.130
the other hand, if we're looking for something

01:06:05.130 --> 01:06:09.289
that speaks to us divine wisdom in the midst

01:06:09.289 --> 01:06:12.190
of our human struggles, then that's exactly what

01:06:12.190 --> 01:06:15.909
we've got with this collection of texts. That's,

01:06:15.909 --> 01:06:18.769
yeah, again, super hopeful and I think a really

01:06:18.769 --> 01:06:20.769
helpful way to sort of think about scripture.

01:06:21.530 --> 01:06:24.329
Yeah, so thank you. And thank you for tuning

01:06:24.329 --> 01:06:26.650
in to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. I

01:06:26.650 --> 01:06:29.150
hope that this has also been an encouragement

01:06:29.150 --> 01:06:32.010
for you and a place for you to learn a little

01:06:32.010 --> 01:06:34.289
bit more about how we read scripture, but also

01:06:34.289 --> 01:06:37.349
how God is working from the very beginning until

01:06:37.349 --> 01:06:41.389
now through all of our messy situations. And

01:06:41.389 --> 01:06:42.329
we'll see you again next week.