Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity
Talks. My name is Kyla and this week I am so
excited to be sitting down with Rochelle and
Linda to mark the National Indigenous Peoples
Day which happens on June 21st here in Canada.
And yeah, Linda and Rochelle are just going to
talk to us a little bit about... how that day
and the history of Indigenous people in Canada
intersects with our faith and the history of
the church in Canada. So I'm really looking forward
to this conversation. Thank you for joining me,
ladies. Thank you so much, Kyla. Yeah. We'll
get you to start by introducing yourselves. So
maybe Rochelle, do you want to go first? Sure.
OK, so yeah, thanks for having us today. My name
is Rochelle. I have been going to Trinity for
about three years. Grew up in Canada. I live
in Mississauga, grew up in Northern Ontario in
a place called Sioux Lookout with my mother here,
my dad and my older sister. And yeah, we're going
to be chatting about... Indigenous Peoples' Day
a little bit, and so, or how, I guess, being
Indigenous interacts with our faith. And so,
yeah, I'm First Nation. I'll let my mom speak
a little bit more to that. But we are part of
a people group called the Severin Cree. And yeah,
so that's the kind of the groundwork for why
I'm here. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Go ahead.
My name is Linda Martin and as Rochelle said,
I'm her mom and I'm originally from a place called
Muscrat Dam. It's an isolated community and I
married 40 years ago and since then I haven't
been able to live back in the community. Presently
we live just outside Winnipeg and both my husband
and I are doing mission work for 25 years now.
Okay, very cool. So my first question, I want
to sort of root us in your faith backgrounds.
So when did you first learn about Jesus and what
was that sort of faith experience like for you?
Do you want to start, Linda? Okay. I grew up
just knowing about God and knowing of God. And
God was real to me. And I know that a lot of
our history as Indigenous people, many of my
people, the Indigenous people, don't... I struggle
with believing in God, and that comes from the
experiences we've had with the church and through
the residential school system and the colonization.
But it was about 20 years ago that I realized
that we had that history, that kind of history,
about 25 years ago. I knew about it, but... I
began to really understand the impact that has
had on us as a nation. So myself, I've always
believed in God, knew of God. And then, I mean,
I'm just curious, because I know you've shared
this with me. Growing up, you would hear your
grandmother share stories of God and Jesus in
the Bible. And so from a very young age, you...
Mm -hmm. Heard those stories, right? Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Because the way our family was structured,
my grandparents are a very big part of our, like,
day -to -day living. Sure. Many nights we would
go over to sleep over at my grandparents' house
and our tent, not house. And so she would tell
us stories of Jesus and stories about God as
bedtime stories. Right. And from there on, like
as a six, seven year old, you just heard about
God. Right. In that way. And that became part
of the formation or the foundation of my faith.
Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. And I think,
you know, Mom, you can share a bit more maybe
later, but your story then of becoming a young
woman and Meeting God in a in a new way impacted
your life then and so for me You know you and
dad got married and at the time you got married
you were Christians. You're both Christians So
for me, I grew up in a home then right from the
get -go was Christian, right? We went to church.
I saw you guys reading your Bibles and praying
and so Yeah, I just grew up in a Christian home.
And so yeah, that's kind of like the beginnings
of my journey sure yeah yeah yeah that's cool
are there ways linda that you think your faith
as a child was like different than the way that
you know rachelle might have experienced faith
as a child or were they sort of similar stories
similar ways of of thinking about it so i think
for me like As indigenous people of Canada, we
were missionized by different denominations.
In my tribal area, there's about 52 communities.
We had the Anglican Church that came to us, came
to our villages and brought the message of Jesus
to us. And so for me, I think just Coming to
learn about Jesus from outside was how I began
to understand, know of God, understand God. And
whereas with Rachelle, it was just she was born
into it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know that.
That definitely sort of sets a bit of a different
tone, right? Whether this is something that you
feel like is really part of you or if it's something
that you're still trying to bring the pieces
together, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So
how has your indigenous identity shaped your
experience or your understanding of faith? Because
of my early introduction to God and understanding
of God and knowing about God. It was kind of,
it just kind of became a natural progression
of my journey. When I came to a hard place in
my life as a young woman, it was to God I turned
to. And I called out to God. And I really experienced
God answering my prayer. And He became real to
me. And from there on, it was like a personal
commitment that I made. But I can't say that
to the rest of my Indigenous people in Canada,
because a large percentage of my people, probably
like 90%, they went through the residential school
system. I have aunts and uncles and first cousins
that went to the residential school. And there
they experienced the concept of God as being
like something that they had to do. Like there
were ritual prayers that they had to do, even
the Lord's Prayer was something. It was a ritual
prayer that they were asked to do in order to
pray. So it was more like a legalistic or a system
in some ways that was brought the concept of
God or the reality of God. And so as part of
the reaction to that pain, to that trauma in
the residential schools, Christianity and the
concept, and God is one of the things that they
said that they're not, are experiencing as not
wanting to be part of their life in the present.
And I think for me, we work in the field of trauma.
And one of the things that we talk about or teach
the people that we work with is that one of the
initial impacts of trauma is to have all or nothing
thinking, which is like, for example, for my
people, coming away from a traumatic experience,
having maybe been in a residential school for
seven years and having experienced emotional
abuse, physical abuse, and spiritual abuse. Many
of them came away not wanting to be part of that
because it was hurtful to them. So trauma, one
of the reactions from trauma is that all or nothing
thinking that all churches are bad. And part
of our healing needs to be to come to a place
that where we recognize that not all churches
are bad. There are some really good churches.
And the same idea is to being in a relationship
or getting to know non -Indigenous people. I'm
married to a non -Indigenous man. And so my healing
in that journey with another people group, even
though the non -Indigenous people were our colonizers
and are the settlers, and a lot of pain has come
from that, even to this day. For me part of my
healing has been to learn to understand that
There are some really good non -indigenous people,
right and some really Non -indigenous people
that still hurt you today. Yeah, and I see that
today even in the political mm -hmm World. Yeah.
Oh for sure for sure. Yeah Yeah, it's interesting
for you to sort of draw. I'll you know what your
personal experience has been, but also what the
experience of indigenous people in general has
been, right? And sort of recognizing that you
had this really important moment where you know
God sort of more intimately, and you know God
as someone who saves and heals. But yeah, against
this backdrop of indigenous people's experience
in general, which has been Yeah, as you said,
sort of more legalistic or more painful at times,
right? It's recognizing all of these different
pieces are true at the same time. Yes. And when
you're right in the midst of it, it's hard to
see beyond the pain that you're going through.
Yeah. And I see that still today with my people
group. We are still in that place of in the middle
of that pain. And a lot of it too is like we
are just learning right now to find our voices
and to begin to name the things that have happened
to us because for so many years, hundreds of
years actually, you know, we were silenced. The
colonization had a systemic approach the way
they took away our culture, our children, our
families. And it's really, when there's a systemic
assimilation, it's really hard to see it happen
because it happens over generations. So part
of my journey has been learning to understand
that. And for me, what I see happening, like
with Richelle, Each generation is going to know
more about our history and how we can get better.
And we can get stronger. Each generation gets
more educated, has more understanding, and healing
will take place as we understand more. Yeah,
and I think to your point there, as I've grown
up Christian, and then as I became an adult,
learned about our history and so began to question,
okay, as a Christian, what does this mean for
me? How do I wrestle with this tension? But working
through all of that and then coming to a place
where I think actually my identity as an indigenous
woman and the traditions and the culture, like
as we've been reclaiming our culture, that's
a big thing that's happening now among my generation
and my cousins and younger. there's this reclamation
of culture. And like, for me, as a Christian,
God has really blessed that journey and been
like, it's almost been, it's expanded my understanding
of God, to be honest, and just how beautiful
culture is, how He created culture. He wants
it to be celebrated. You know, He created us
all so diverse. And as someone who is part of
a people group, that I've looked at our history
and been like, oh, wow, like that stuff was taken
away from my family members. Even the right to
be a parent was taken away. Their culture was
taken away. The language was taken away. As we're
reclaiming that, I'm like, God says that's good,
right? God says that's good to reclaim this,
to celebrate it, to see the beauty in it. So
there was a time where I had tension between
these two identities, but I've come to a place
where I've been like, oh, God really blesses
that. Right, yeah. And in addition to what Rochelle
is saying, I think for me, another thing I struggled
with is my sense of identity. Like who am I?
Because even our, the education system at a great
school level, it was all like, I graduated, I
finished grade eight thinking that the social
studies, the early explorers that I learned in
my social studies classes, thinking that was
my history. Right. Thinking so part of my journey
has been to separate that and recognize, no,
that's not my history. Right. But what is my
history? I didn't have history. So part of my
journey has been to recognize the impact that
all that has had on us, on me individually, like
the sense of oppression, being an oppressed people,
and having shame as a shame that tells you you
don't have a place in society. Shame that says
you're invisible, shame that says you don't have
anything important to say. In that journey of
oppression and the experience of shame, is when
I began to understand too that, no, it is God
who has created me and who I am as an indigenous
woman. Genesis 1, 26, 27 talks about that, that
God created us as male and female. And so once
I could begin to understand that, I too began
to see the beauty of different nationalities,
different people groups, that we all represent
something of who God is, like the whole world.
And that doesn't even capture who God is. But
we see the beauty of all different nationalities,
and all of us reflect something of who God is.
And I just see that as beautiful. And that includes
me and my nation. that we have something to bring,
that we have something that we reflect of who
God is. Yeah, for sure. Well, that's so good.
It's interesting to sort of hear you both reflect
on a sort of similar theme of, right, like bringing
your indigenous identity and your Christian identity
together. And I'm wondering in terms of like
timelines of that, like has that journey Lined
up for both of you or have you been doing that
at different times? And how have you supported
one another sort of through that? Tell me to
share first. Okay I think different timelines
I think but maybe similar in terms of when it
happened to us, but I can't speak for you. So
for me I Again group Christian and then when
I started learning about this the history of
our country and the oppression that people, my
people have experienced, people I love. And then
you start hearing about aunts and uncles who
went to residential school and went to, these
were run by churches. And you start having all
these questions, almost like a crisis of faith,
where you're like, how could this have happened
to people I love, by people I love? And how do
I now Live in this tension and so that happened
in my early late teens early 20s really wrestled
with that and then again more recently with the
Discovery of the unmarked graves in Kamloops
and that was 20 was that 2019 We can fact -check
that but when that happened it it honestly like
resurged it was like a resurgence of anger And
another crisis of faith where I said, we knew
this happened. I knew this happened. But how
could this have happened again? And it was really
hard for me to reconcile how these two pieces
could go together. And it was hard. Church was
a hard place to be in because there was so much
going on in my head. I was looking around and
just having really... Like just a, just a challenging
time saying, how can I step foot in a church
with what has happened? Like because of the church
and fell into very all or nothing thinking where
I was like, okay, this is all bad. All of it's
bad. And, you know, just kind of spiraling. Um,
but you know, the thing that was consistent through
it all was my faith in God. And God is faithful.
And he was with me through that time and was
able to reveal himself through it as good. And
that reminder that, okay, God is good. God is
faithful. The example of Jesus in the Bible,
he's a justice seeker. you know, he looks out
for the oppressed, he loves children. Those messages
were deeply rooted enough in my heart that I
came to a place where I said, okay, God is good.
People do bad things sometimes. But even, you
know, being part of Trinity, being part of a
church community for so many years, I was able
to then look at the people I had built relationships
with and been like, There are good people. These
are good people pursuing reconciliation, pursuing
friendship. And then there's also, you know,
like what's happened in the past was awful. There
needs to be justice served and we're still pursuing
that, right, on this journey of reconciliation.
But anyways, yes, that's how it kind of went
unraveled for me. I think for me it was in my
early 30s. And I had been, I was doing, I did
a three year BA in social sciences and it was
in my sociology classes, courses that I began
to see what happened in this country. And I remember
that one year when I understood what's happened
to us as indigenous people. There was a sense
of anger that I had. And everywhere I looked
and I saw non -Indigenous people, there was anger
that came. And I was kind of in a conflict because
I was already married to a non -indigenous family.
Wait, I love this man. He's white. Exactly. But
I didn't not get to that place yet where I understood
the impact of trauma is having a black and white
thinking. I wasn't there yet. It was more like...
But that's a confusing place to be. Oh, it is.
It is. There's so much conflict. And I think
many of my people never... get past that conflict.
They understand now we've been hurt by the system,
whatever that is. We've been hurt by the system,
and there's so much anger. And I think many of
us are still stuck in that. So for me, it was
in my early 30s that I realized what had happened.
And there was anger. And I remember one day down
in the Kichina Waterloo area, we were at the
gas station and I saw these little non -Indigenous
kids. And these are innocent children. You felt
anger because they represented a nation that
hurt us. And during that time also, it was like
I was looking at my reality, the world in like
split level. It's constantly going back and forth.
It's the dissonance of being, I think, an Aboriginal
person today. You keep going back and forth in
the two worlds and all. But I have come to a
place of, again, I see the beauty of God's creation
of all humanity, that we all represent something
beautiful of who God is. I'm in my sixties now,
so that was a long time ago talking to God. When
you were talking, Rachelle, about recognizing
that God is faithful, even in the midst of really
hard things, the thing that came to mind for
me was, God is faithful even when God's people
aren't faithful. God is still good even when
people do things in the name of God that are
not good. And learning to sort of tease out those
differences, I think, is a really important step
in the journey. And that it wasn't God. It wasn't
God that did those things to us. That needs to
be part of the discernment in our healing journey.
Even though many of those residential schools
were run by the government in partnership with
the churches, like the Catholic churches, the
United Church, and then the Anglican Church.
They were in partnership to run these schools.
But if you don't... If you're not on that healing
journey or have healed from it, you still believe
that those are bad places, hurtful places. I
lost my train of thought. So, Linda, you do a
lot of work with indigenous Christian leaders
and helping them heal from trauma. So can you
just explain to us a little bit, what does that
work? look like? What are you doing on a sort
of regular basis? So a lot of it is teaching.
Okay. And teaching through workshop presentations
to our guest speakers in different places. And
one of the things that we really are excited
about is bringing reconciliation between the
two people groups. Like I said, my husband's
family is from this area. And for the longest
time I had, like, I could not connect because
the two realities, the two worlds, my world and
his world, they're just miles apart. But now
there's so much that has happened since then.
A bridge has been made through reconciliation.
Like his home church is one of the churches that
sponsor us now. And actually, there's a team
from there that's going to my home community
to do a summer camp. This is going to be their
third summer. Third summer. So we do a lot of
teaching. What kind of topics are you teaching
on? It's trauma, loss and grief, and any personal
experiences, abuse. We help. We talk about those.
And my husband, Rick, he mentors a lot of Indigenous
men. Another thing we talk about in healing from
trauma is that you need to have a relationship
that is consistent over a period of time to help
begin to be part of a healing in an Indigenous
person, befriend an Indigenous person. Rick says
that if every person In society, in Canada, befriended
an Indigenous person, every one of you guys,
befriended an Indigenous person, the face of
society would look different today. Because there
would be so much understanding. It creates empathy
when you get to know an Indigenous person. There's
empathy that begins to happen and you just begin
to have a heart. for my people and I want things
to change. So teaching on abuse issues, one of
the models that we use in our presentations is
that we... We have four stages that we talked
about. First stage is what we call reactionary
stage. And at this stage, it's more like you
reacting to the pain that you've carried. It
doesn't matter how far back, 20 years, 30 years,
maybe you were abused, whoever, you know? And
there's a lot of anger. And to cope with that,
there's a lot of addiction and a lot of depression
and suicide. Second stage is understand what
happened to you. Begin to name what happened.
You know, what emotions do you still carry? Anger,
shame, you know, anxiety. And then third is beginning
to know how you can move on. And when you get
to this stage, you have a heart for other people.
Your heart begins to... heal and open up for
other people rather than being so focused on
the present. My pain, just getting through each
day, day to day reaction to life. You're not
even living in some ways. And then the fourth
stage is you're at the place where you believe,
you are created in the image of God, but we live
in a fallen world. And people will still disappoint
you. People will abandon you. People will hurt
you. But that doesn't change who God is. God
is still God. And that's who we need to believe
because His promises is... One of His promises
that is long -standing right from the Old Testament
to the New Testament to this day is that I will
never leave you nor forsake you. For me, that's
one of the promises that anchors me. That's one
of my anchors. But He will never, never leave
us and forsake me. That's His promise. Right?
From the Old Testament, still the same. Yeah,
for sure. So those that kind of teaching. Yeah.
Oh, that's great. Bring to my people. Yeah. Yeah.
And how do you incorporate like faith or spirituality
into those teachings? We just basically outright
call it like biblical counseling, biblical presentations.
But I do use other like approaches. theories,
other ways of counseling, because anytime there's
pain or trauma that happens to us, I believe
that we're affected holistically. The way our
thinking process gets affected, our emotional
capacity is affected, our spirit and our body.
Our pain, our body carries our pain, trauma.
We carry our trauma in our... bodies, so healing
needs to be holistic as well, to address the
four areas. So in those places I use different
models or theories, however I see that fits to
the needs of my people. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's
great. So why do you think that it's important
for Canadian Christians specifically to sort
of better understand indigenous people in Canada
and indigenous history? For better relationships.
We have to learn to get along. And to recognize
there's two people groups in this country that
we call Canada. The country that we call Canada.
Yes. Canada on Turtle Island. Yes. What do you
mean by two people groups? Non -Indigenous and
Indigenous. Okay, I see. I was like, because
Canada has so many people groups, but I see what
you're saying. Non -Indigenous and Indigenous.
We need to get along. There's so much conflict
right now between the two. And get to know each
other. Because when we get to know each other,
there's empathy and that changes the way we see
each other. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I think
for me a big something that I'm just very passionate
about is like if we're calling ourselves Christians
and if we're being truly what God and Jesus called
us to be was to love our neighbor, you know,
to be compassionate, to be merciful. Yeah. to
speak up for the oppressed, to seek justice,
all that stuff, then this is part of that calling,
right? To recognize what has happened recently
in our recent history as Canadians and say, okay,
maybe I didn't personally play a part in this,
but if I'm calling myself Christian, If I'm calling
myself a Christian, I need to understand the
weight that that carries for Indigenous people
and the harm that has been caused by a group
that I'm a part of, even if I didn't do it personally.
And I know that that's a really big journey for
people to go on. And I think there can be a lot
of shame and guilt when you start that journey.
And I mean, my hope is even as I have conversations
with friends or people or you, like the church,
my hope is that people don't feel guilt and shame.
I think we should feel deep sadness and deep
grief about what's happened. But to be reminded
that, yes, this is a high calling. As Canadians
and Christians, we should be pursuing reconciliation
and that there's hope. There's a lot of hope
in the God we believe in. you know, the message
of the gospel is one of reconciliation and hope
and healing and death to life. So God is big
enough to heal this broken relationship. Are
you willing to go on it and to also bring healing
to a people group that is hurting and people
are still hurting from it? You know, they don't
trust the church. They don't trust the name,
the title Christian. So yeah, I just want Canadian
Christians to know that there is hope, but to
start that journey, whether it's by reading one
story about a residential school survivor and
understanding the impact that had on that child
who's now an elder in our community, right? Start
that journey of empathy and understanding. Yeah,
for sure. Can I just make an additional comment?
Another thing that's happened to my people group
is that, so healing from trauma, you need a context.
You need a context where that's very important
to heal in a good way from a traumatic experience.
But we as indigenous people today, many times
we don't have the family context because of so
many things like We have the intergenerational
trauma from residential schools. And one of the
main things that we lost from that experience
is good parenting skills. Right. Learning, like
having good families. So to heal from trauma,
you need a good family setting, good support,
good cultural context, you know, traditions that
bring support to as you journey in your pain.
Traditions and customs, whatever they are, we
don't even have that. We don't have that. So
that's another challenge we have as we're trying
to heal from years of traumatic experiences.
But I think what I wanted to say is that This
is one of the ways that the church could bring
support to us, by being that community for us.
A church community, whether having, do you call
them life groups? Yeah, the small groups that
we have. Those kinds of contexts, like places
of support, because we don't have those. And
I always encourage that in our workshops. When
we're invited by churches, I often encourage
them, maybe it's you as a church that needs to
start that grief support group. addictions support
groups, because we need that. Yeah, just some
of those really practical resources, right? Practical
things we can do. Yeah, and the ways that we
just like do all of life together, right? Like
in the life groups, we get to study the Bible,
but we also share meals together and we help
each other through the hard times and we celebrate
together. And yeah, just doing all of those things.
Providing it a kind of family. Yeah. Yeah, that's
super important for sure So if folks are listening
and they're sort of intrigued and saying okay
now what what I want to learn more What what
are some things that you might recommend? Like
really practically one of the books I always
recommend is 21 things you May Not Know About
the Indian Act. And it's by author Bob Joseph.
He has a follow -up book called Indigenous Relations.
And I actually can't find my other copy. I was
trying to find it this morning. This is the sequel,
but the first one is 21 Things You May Not Know
About the Indian Act. And it's very reader -friendly.
If you want to get the big picture of this journey
that Indigenous people have been on in our country
and why they are where they are today, I really
recommend that because the Indian Act impacted
so much about our people and how they function.
And of course, it goes back to colonization.
So there's lots of good books. First Nations
101, I have there. Unsettling Truths. Unsettling
truth is another good one more about the document
doctrine of discovery And then mom you wanted
to speak to a little more like personal stories
Yeah, I was I think for me what I would like
to say to the people is that Be interested in
us and our stories There's so many books out
there right now and different bookstores people
writing their biographies and actually as part
of my healing over the last like 40 years you
know that's how I that those were one that that
was one of the things I did as part of my healing
is read these stories about other indigenous
people how they began to find healing it helped
me understand Like reading biographies will help
you understand what it's like inside that indigenous
person to go through that. And hopefully it'll
bring more empathy, understanding. So biographies
of writers, like you can go to I think any...
in the Go store. Google? Type in, you'll get
a big list. There's sections, so start small.
And also, just being open and interested. I often
say about Rachelle and her family, her boys,
on Is It Every Child Matters? She has her sons
dressed in these t -shirts, and off they go to
school. And I often say, In that small way, and
as part of who you are, how you live out your
life, you're sending a message that this is part
of our history in Canada. And it's real. It's
a reality. And it will affect us. And part of
what we learned in history classes and our studies
is that It's the people that have the victory
over the land or over country that get to tell
their story. But the one that has been defeated,
they don't get a chance to tell their story.
And I see ourselves as a nation that it's that
people group that never got to tell the story,
their story, their side of the story. And we
are just finally starting to do that. And so
I would say believe our stories. Believe our
stories that it did happen. I mean, that's what
I ask. Yeah, no, that's really good because you
said earlier that your husband said you have
every... sort of non -indigenous person in Canada
had an indigenous friend how that would sort
of change things and I think that that's that's
a really good point a really good place to start,
but for folks who feel really intimidated by
that, I think, yeah, some of these biographies
are an equally good place to start. And I think
because I was saying to you earlier, like we
don't, it's like be a friend, but where, who,
to who? Where are the Indigenous people? When
you live in a place like, I found this when I
moved down here to Toronto, I was like, I don't,
we're so diverse, which is beautiful. And I'm
like, I don't know who, I don't see any Indigenous
people. Unless maybe you go downtown Toronto,
like there are, um, you know, you might be able
to tell, but, um, you know, they're on the reserves
typically. And if they're not, they're very integrated
into, um, they just blend in a little bit. Sure.
And how do we even cross that bridge to friendship?
Like you can't just walk on the street and be
like, Hey, let's be friends now. Like there's
just not a high, a large population of Indigenous
people in our communities. And so I was just
saying to you before that, like reading, picking
up a biography, saying, OK, maybe I can't attain
that in -person connection right now, but I'm
going to read a story about someone and I'm going
to believe it. And I really believe it will impact
you in a big way. Yeah. Thank you so much, ladies.
This has been a really good conversation. I so
appreciate your honesty and your vulnerability
because I know sharing parts of yourself like
this can be a really hard step, but I think also
something that is so important for us to hear
and to get to learn from and get your perspective.
So thank you for taking the time to do this.
Thank you, Kyla. Thank you so much for having
us. Yes, thank you so much. You're very welcome.
And for those who are listening, thank you for
sticking with us. Taking this time to sort of
reflect. I hope that in whatever you have heard
that you are able to take a piece of this and
and bring some healing forward whether you need
that healing for yourself or healing in our relationships
with indigenous folks in this country And we'll
see you again next week