Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana.
And I'm Bill. And we are here for the last time
to wrap up our series about the seven deadly
sins. And we are going to be talking about the
last sin, or at least the last in our particular
list. I don't know if they're really ranked in
any kind of way. But the last one on our list
is gluttony. So let's start by just talking about
what is... Gluttony. I think when we think about
it sort of commonly, we think about it as, you
know, excessive eating. And I think that's definitely
part of it. But are there other things that sort
of fall within what gluttony is? Yeah. I mean,
I was thinking more of an excessive obsession
with food. Okay. Right. And that can take various
forms. Sure. A sort of unhealthy way in which
food ends up being the place for your ultimate
satisfaction or for your fulfilling of more than
nourishing and needs. So yeah, I would say that
it can manifest in very different ways, not necessarily
only excessiveness. Well, I'd like to say that
I did an extensive word study and I kind of dived
into the etymology of the word gluttony and looked
at the roots in the Greek and the Hebrew and
just kind of dug into that and stuff, but I just
did a Google search. Okay. And what does the
Almighty Google have to say about that? And the
Google search, the definition as it relates to
the seven deadly sins is... excessive indulgence
and overconsumption of anything to the point
of waste, particularly food and drink. I think
there's a bunch to unpack there. It's an indulgence,
of course, but it's an overindulgence or an excessive
indulgence and a consumption. I think we've talked
about that. But it says of anything. It's an
overindulgence or overconsumption of anything.
It does say particularly food or drink, but generally
it can be anything. I mean, we could talk about
a gluttony or a gluttonous attitude over social
media or something like that, right? But it does
say particularly food or drink. And then the
next line, it says, it's considered a sin when
it leads to a lack of control over one's relation
with food or causes harm to the body. Um, and
I think that is two more key points, right? Where
it says, where it's, it's about a lack of control.
And I think for me, that's, that really kind
of strikes home. That's, that's a, that's an
important thing to me is kind of having, having
control over myself. And so anything that causes
a lack of control is concerning. Uh, and then
it's, uh, and then it's also about harm. Um,
so when we think about that, like what, how does,
you know, what does, how does gluttony relate
to harming ourself or harming others. So that's
an interesting thing to think about as well.
Yeah, and to think about harming others as well,
I think that's an interesting dynamic to sort
of pull into it, right? Because we think of,
at least I think of gluttony as a very sort of
personal thing. Yeah, and so it all sort of revolves
around this relationship with food, right? And
so I think maybe for us to really fully understand
what Gluttony is maybe we need to understand
like what our relationship to food is Right.
So if you were to think about Maybe the opposite
of gluttony or like what what a healthy relationship
with food looks like like what what is that?
Beats me I think there is information there on
that, right? We know of cultures that have healthier
relationships with food. They're eating real
food. They're eating it in community. What do
you mean by real food? So food that is not necessarily
full of synthetic. Okay, right so like like whole
or things that are grown locally necessary Sometimes
but even if if it's coming from elsewhere We're
talking about something that is closer to where
it has or how it's been grown as opposed to where
you've got a range of stabilizing Synthetic chemicals
put there now those can have benefits right in
different ways but in general what you've got
food is food that is very often prepared, more
intentionally eaten within a community. Because
it's eaten in a community, it's regulated inherently,
right? Because it means that you're waiting for
people to come together when you eat. You're
not simply going off by yourself and gorging
or something like that. And so you've got a lot
of cultures that actually do, I think, have rhythms
of preparing, eating. and then eating in community
that allow for inherently less consumption, slower
consumption, healthier eating. And so we can
look at those as ingredients in what it might
be to eat more healthily. And within a Christian
framework too, we recognize food is good, right?
It's a gift. It was in the garden. Eat off the
trees in the garden, right? I mean, we focus
on the one tree that was prohibited, but every
other tree was available to eat. Eat anything
you want over here. And so it's a good gift that
you can receive and enjoy with people. and be
a place for creativity and so much that is good.
And it can go out of whack, right? I think for
my family, the transition to healthy eating involved
more kind of moving from food in a box. to fruits
and vegetables and actual ingredients that go
into making a meal. As opposed to buying a meal
in a box, you're buying the things that you prepare
to make the meal. And often, I think most often,
that's healthier eating than buying products.
I think I was told, it was probably Natalie that
told me this a while ago, but it was just, buy
most of your stuff at the grocery store along
the outside wall of the grocery store. Shop along
the edges. Yeah, shop along the edges. Yeah,
that's exactly. And don't go down the aisles.
The aisles are bad. Just shop along the edges.
And that's more of where the kind of the healthier
food items are. You know, fruits and vegetables
and meat and stuff. Yeah. So we're talking about
a healthy relationship with food in terms of
like healthy foods. But I think it also extends
a bit further. Right? Like when I think about
So I grew up in a rural area where there was
like lots of farming and things like that I don't
think we ever in my life bought apples from the
grocery store because there was someone in my
church who like had an apple orchard and just
like gave Apples to everybody in the church,
right? And so we knew exactly where those apples
came from Yes, right and I can think of the same
thing like every summer we went and picked our
own strawberries and blueberries and things like
that, right and then You know, my mom would make
jam. So, like, the first time that I had jam
that was, like, not homemade, I was like, this
is just too sweet. It's just not good. Right,
right, right. So, just all, like, it's the food
that we eat, but it's also, like, the connections
to the land, to the people, like, all of those
things, I think, also. help constitute a healthy
relationship to food because it has a story.
Yeah, I mean, I was just reflecting on growing
up in India, right? I mean, I grew up in Mumbai
and we didn't snack. Like at the time, it wasn't
a snacking culture. So we would have breakfast
in the morning, go off, like I'd be off to school.
I would have my lunch packed. I'd have that,
come back, have, you know, play a bit and go.
There was dinner, but there wasn't any snacking
in between. that was partly just how you did
things. Even dessert, it's not really a huge
dessert culture. So dessert was only for feasts.
So we didn't even have dessert every day. Chocolate
was only on special occasions, was super expensive.
And cookies, it's not a cookie culture. And so
cake was only for birthdays. And so you inherently
just ate less, ate nourishing food. and ate at
specific times. And so, yeah, there was just
not like a pantry in the way I have right now
with a few snacks there for me to snack at other
times. It just wasn't there. Whereas all of that,
I think crept into my life once we came to Canada,
right? Because it's everywhere all the time.
So to think about North American culture, you
know, you've lost that connection. to food, where
that's part of a holistic, healthy understanding
of food and where it comes from and all that
kind of stuff. And we've also kind of misplaced
where food is in our life. I think for a lot
of us, where food is... We're trying to make
ourselves feel better as opposed to nurturing
our bodies. We're trying to kind of feed emotionally.
We're trying to kind of fill that hole with food
as well, which is not healthy. Yeah, for sure.
A healthy vision for food is, yeah, healthy foods,
a connection to land, a sense of moderation of
some kind. Yeah, moderation, community with other
people. Yeah, so then, as Bill started to take
us into, how does an unhealthy relationship with
food show up in our culture today? And maybe
we can draw some connections there to gluttony,
if we understand gluttony in a holistic sense
of an unhealthy relationship to food. Yeah, so
you've already said, you know, like the boxed
food and and yeah, I think there is something
to that. The like convenience of like whether
it's, you know, fast food in a sense of like
going out to a restaurant for fast food or even
like fast food, like here's a frozen meal that
will take you two minutes to eat up. Right. Like
that, I think, destroys some of that connection.
Yeah, it destroys so many connections. It destroys
because you don't know where it comes from. It
doesn't. You don't know how it's processed. Yeah.
that isn't the sort of intentionality that comes
from preparing food. And I say this not as if
I've got it all figured out. Like I struggle,
you know, and so many pressures I think we have
here in North America that make it hard to have
a healthy sort of let's sit down and eat and
connect in family each day, right? I mean, I
come home from work, I'm tired. Like it's easy
to reach for something that's already prepared
if I haven't been intentional about. cooking
the day before or two days before, right? Stuff
like that where you're consistently having to
prepare. But yeah, I think, you know, so the
industrialization of food, as we talked about,
destroys that connection. The ways in which when
industrialization happens, so many of the foods
we prepare or are prepared are empty calories,
right? So what it actually does is fuel then.
like because you've eaten things that are not
necessarily nourishing, your body needs it and
you feel hungry more often. Right. And so it,
you know, so it's not, it's like a lot of ways
in which our cultures, the way it creates food
products can feed, it can make it more difficult
for people to actually then have a healthier
relationship with food, right? So it's our pressures
on our time. you know not having time but also
the fact that even if we do go buy food some
of that isn't really good and then it can fuel
right urges and it fuels a hunger that then like
more naturally leads to overconsumption because
the things that we consumed are not nourishing
that's right yeah yeah yeah so that's when you're
just talking about food itself that's just the
food bar when you're talking about when you're
talking about people that are eating food in
place of or while they're hungering for something.
That's not food. They're hungry for something
else. So not only is the food, the quality of
the food that we're eating not nourishing our
bodies in a physical sense, but we're grabbing
for that food to try and trying to fill a different
hunger that food can't fill either. So I mean,
there's just a lot of want that's left at the
end of that equation. Yeah. So in the Sermon
of Oat Gluttony, Rob made this sort of joke about
the the cardiogastric canal, which is like, you
know, this connection between our stomach and
our heart, that when we're feeling a longing
for something else, for God, for connection,
like when we're feeling lonely or feeling stressed,
even though those aren't like physical hunger
pains, we try to fill that with food. We reach
to soothe with food, essentially. Yeah, exactly.
The other thing that I think about in terms of,
you know, Western culture's relationship to food
is, you know, back to at the beginning, you said
that, you know, gluttony is about harming ourselves,
but also harming other people, right? And so
there's this connection to them, like food waste
and overindulgence in a world where other people
don't have enough food. Right? So yeah, can you
just reflect on like what that looks like? That's
an important part of this discussion for me because
kind of my background, my work background is
working with people that are hungry and that
go without working with homeless populations
and underprivileged populations. And that's a
real issue with having enough food for themselves
and for their families. And when I see other
people in our culture, in our community that
have enough, that have excess, that waste food,
and it just doesn't seem to be that care and
concern for the community overall. I see that
as a... Literally, it's a bit as a waste as a
I mean, that's a that's a tragedy It just it
just kind of gets gets gets my blood burning
a little bit right that the I know anger was
last week But but it's just we're you know, it
that it's there's an injustice there that that
is that is solidly around around food and and
making and you know, some of us kind of not caring,
you know, just you know not realizing Maybe that,
you know, that they're that everyone doesn't
have what we have. Right. And there's some people
that go without. And the reality is, if we if
we shared, everyone would have enough. But but
we don't. But that's part of the problem is that
we don't have that same. sense of community,
that sense of other, to be able to kind of understand
how we can, instead of being part of the problem,
we can be part of the solution. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
for sure, for sure. Yeah, which is why then I
think about eating together. is such an important
like move to sort of counteract that, right?
Because it is, it's inviting people into this
table of stuff that I have, like quite literally,
right? And saying, okay, there is enough. Like
I can invite more people into this. I don't need
to like hold on. Yeah, when I was working at
the dam years ago, we would do weekly family
meals or community dinners with the youth that
were coming to the drop -in. And there would
be 15 or 20 of us, some staff, volunteers, and
youth. And we'd make the meal together, and we
would sit down and eat the meal together. And
I was just amazed when we were sitting down talking
while we're eating, and youth would be reflecting,
like, this is so nice. We should do this. I should
do this at home with my family. And I'm like,
you don't? No, no, we've never sat down like
this as if as if like never I'm like, how is
that possible? Oh yeah, when I go home, I just
grab something and I sit in front of the TV or
go to my room and my dad doesn't come home until
late or whatever. There's all sorts of stories,
right? But the thing is that that family meal,
which I guess at some point was a much more common
thing for everyone to come together. And again,
it's not just about the food and sharing a meal
or even it together, which is also great. But
the time that you have together to talk about
your day and to find out what's going on and
to chat and catch up and all that kind of stuff,
there's so many families that are missing out
on all of that. And to the detriment of each
and every family and the detriment of our community
and probably our culture. Yeah, for sure. In
light of all of that, in light of this sort of
good, healthy relationship to food and this other
sort of relationship that has all of these tensions,
gluttony, we talk about it as a sin, which means
that we presume that there's some spiritual impact
in all of this as well. So what is the spiritual
impact of gluttony and is it different somehow
than just the disconnection and the overeating?
Yeah, I think just given where our conversation
has been, I would say it's the space where food
is not appreciated as the gift and as the place
of communion that it is. So that can happen by
grabbing too much, right? Where it's just all
for me. not this good thing you receive with
others. And at the same time, it can manifest
in so many different, like not caring enough,
even, not being intentional about eating. And
so it can also manifest in damaging ways on the
other side, where you just don't care, where
you're not, as you said, Bill, people are not
necessarily getting together anymore to eat together.
where food before if somebody was preparing it
and people were eating together, you have that
connection. Now that's just let go. It's not
even recognized. And so I think Latine can be
this odd space where you can have too much or
too little. You can go into cycles of too much
and too little. And you just end up having this
really unhealthy space where you're willing to
sacrifice or not put attention to those elements
of of its goodness and its opportunity for connection
that is sort of built into what it might be when
it's eaten well, right? Or taken in well. That's
sort of where I would say that spiritual dimension
is you're willing to sacrifice really important
things for shallower or reductive view of just
consumption. And sort of recognizing like, It's
hard to figure out how to put food in its proper
place. Because you don't want food to be way
up here. We're like, it's food and God. But you
also don't want food to be just a tool. If we're
overeating or if we're eating for emotional reasons
or other fulfillment reasons, then food becomes
a tool to comfort. Or if we're looking at diet
culture, food becomes a tool to shape our bodies
in a particular way. And we don't want that,
right? So we need to sort of put food back in
its proper place, somewhere in the middle there,
where it is a good gift from a good God. It's
not God. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think food is
a, there is a spiritual component to food. And
I think that's kind of why gluttony is included
in the seven deadly sins, like you said. I think
it's a, and what Rob said in the sermon about,
or making that connection between our heart and
our stomach, I think is really important. Reflecting
on that because I think a lot of the misplaced
desire around food comes from us thinking that
when we're hungry, it's our stomach talking to
us and not our heart talking to us. And I think
this goes back to I think the first podcast that
we did together on the first Deadly Send when
we were talking about. the believing as one of
the building blocks of growing up well, right?
Just saying that God has created us to believe.
That's a built -in thing. So we have a desire
to believe in something. And so we choose to
believe in a lot of things. Or have that... something
take that place of belief. And in some cases,
you know, people worship food. And it's too something,
it's too much, it's too fancy. Like Guru Ram
was saying, people are too picky, right? But
like you said, they place food in an inappropriate
place in between them and God, where food becomes
their idol, becomes their God. And so God did
create us to believe, but he created us to believe
in him. So we said way back in that first session,
we said that that hole in our heart, not our
stomach, but that hole in our heart is a God
-shaped hole. And when we try to fill it with
food and with drink in this gluttonous kind of
way, it's never going to fully satisfy, right?
And the only satisfaction... Satisfaction? Satisfaction,
thank you. The only satisfaction that we will
find is if we put God in that God -shaped hole.
And the food has a place, right? I think there's
nothing wrong with enjoying food and certainly
enjoying food in community with family or in
groups and stuff, but it can't take the place
of God. as you were talking there, I was reflecting
on, in scripture, Jesus is called like a glutton
and a drunkard. Jesus like went out and partied.
Jesus like had meals with people. It's like,
obviously food is good. Food is, I think an important
part of the kingdom of God. It is. In its proper
place. Yeah. Right. And sometimes that includes
feasting and sometimes that includes, you know,
extravagant fancy food, but it's also includes
the everyday. It also includes the Some of the
analogies of heaven is a banquet, is a feast.
It is, yeah. I mean, that's good times, right?
Yeah, sounds good to me. But it does feel right,
like when you think about the fact that... Feasting
is, you know, Jesus is feasting with people.
And he's receiving their hospitality and creating
connections. Or there are times of feasting,
right, that are quite distinct from every day
or distinct from times of fasting as well. Whereas
I think we do live in a culture which thinks
that every day should be a day of feast, right?
And so I think that's where the excess sometimes
comes in. Every day you've got to eat well. Every
day you have... the right to have a feast, right?
And that sense of the simplicity and nourishment
of the everyday with the feast being the space
of beauty and connection. Those kinds of rhythms
are totally lost, I think, in our culture. And
it isn't just excessiveness, like I'm thinking
of food channels, right? There's like... you
know, banquets every day on there. I cannot try
and think like you need to cook like that all
the time. Right. Right. If anyway, so I was just
people joke about food porn, right? Yeah. Yeah.
There's that lust for food and good food and
delicious food and you know, feasting food that
is totally excessive. And you think about, you
know, if you stop and reflect that is so, so
different from even the West about 50, 60 years
ago, maybe when things began to change. So we've
just got a whole culture of pressure to eat in
unhealthy ways, I think, and not intentional,
not communal, but consistently holding up, you
know, food as a kind of God, as you said, build
an idol. Yeah. So in light of all of that, all
of the ways that we are tempted to have an unhealthy
relationship with food, what are some sort of
practical steps or tips that we might sort of
try to practice to redirect our relationship
with food, to reorient it a bit. So you were
just talking about feasting and how feasting
is good in moments, but it shouldn't be our everyday.
It's not our everyday. Right? And so that makes
me then think of like the opposite of feasting,
which is fasting. Yeah. And I think fasting in
Western culture right now, fasting often shows
up as like a diet trend. Yes. As like or like
intermittent fasting or just like different things,
which I'm not saying that's bad. Like that that
has its place. But I think fasting for a spiritual
purpose and for with the mindset of like, OK,
we're going to reorient our relationship to food
in this moment. Right. And and take the focus.
off of food. Absolutely. And off of body image.
Yes. And reorient it to like, I'm fasting because
I want to like put God in God's place and put
food in food's place. That's the reason why you
should fast. Cause I think there's a lot of people
who fast, maybe even for spiritual reasons, but
they're still preoccupied by food, right? So
when they're not eating, they're thinking of...
not eating, and they're not necessarily taking
that opportunity to kind of reorient their priorities.
And so I encourage anyone who wants to try fasting
that when that hunger comes up is that they use
that as a trigger to kind of understand more.
what their hunger for food is all about, but
what is their hunger for God all about? And how
can they reorientate that desire from food to
God and understanding more of filling the heart
as opposed to filling the stomach. Yeah. So we
have fasting. Are there other? Tips or things
that we might say gratitude. Yeah. Okay. I was
gonna say gratitude, you know the times when
When we've practiced being grateful for food.
I always I don't know whether it's just me But
it's certainly when I've cooked and put food
on the table. Yeah, it's easier to feel grateful
It is then if you shove something in, you know,
that's already prepared and munch it down and
so You know, practicing that gratitude just brings
you intentionally to recognize food as a gift
that it is and God as the giver of that gift
that he is, right? And it certainly slows you
down instead of, I don't know, wolfing down whatever
is put in front of you straight away without
a thought. So, yeah, I would say gratitude is
one practice that we can... And, you know, and...
I know people have so many different health needs,
so I want to say this with some caution, but
as much as possible, reach for the vegetables,
reach for the fruits, reach for the things that
help you inherently moderate. They talk about
the fact that if you put more vegetables on your
plate, chances of overeating because you've got
a whole lot of refined grains are fewer, inherently.
So if struggles with quantity are an issue, you
know, instead of constantly obsessing about sizes,
maybe some, you know, move towards the sorts
of whole, if you can. fruits and vegetables and
things. Those are very practical things that
I struggle to incorporate in my own life. Not
always successfully. That's a great suggestion
on healthy eating. Yeah. That reminds me, I forgot
I was going to bring a big stack of cookies and
just be eating a cookie, just like constantly
like one cookie after another as we're talking
and just like, oh yeah, okay. I thought it would
be ironic, but I forgot to bring them. It's unfortunate.
Yes. We could probably find some cookies in the
kitchen. We probably could. We just start at
the beginning again. That's OK. I don't need
to be eating cookies all through the podcast.
The other thing, like when you were talking about,
you know, choosing vegetables, one of the things
it's hard to do in Canada in the winter, but
when you can is like choosing food that like
you know where it comes from. Yeah. Right. And
it you reestablish that connection. So all summer
long, I will do my best. I don't always do. great,
but I will do my best to buy all of my produce
at like farmers markets. Oh, nice. Right. Because
like I want to be able to say, OK, it's not just
like, OK, this is a whole food. This is a whole
food with a story. Yes. That I can like go and
see and I can build a relationship with the person
who grew this food and like, yeah, just like
reestablishing those connections to the food.
And then. Ideally consuming that food in connection
with other people. Yeah, right So like I know
where this I have this connection to the food
I have this connection to other people and it
it just reorients those like this is what food
is really meant to be it's like a A thing that
brings us together, I think. Yeah, and I think
that is also one of the antidotes to gluttony
is eating food together. Yes. So there is a communal,
a community aspect to food. I mean, it's no mistake
that Jesus took the Passover. dinner and made
it into the last supper where he shared with
his disciples and others and said, you know,
this is my body and this is my blood. Because
that was an important aspect of life is coming
together to eat together. And then that turned
into life giving, not just on a physical level,
but on a spiritual level. And so there's this
great analogy between actually eating a meal
and partaking of the Lord's Supper or Eucharist
or Holy Communion in the service and it has some
great connections there. And I just wanted to
do a shout out for the community meal that we
have here at Trinity because that also kind of
in terms of the reasons why we wanted to do it
in the first place is that we identified a need
in the community of people that were going hungry,
but people that were also lonely. And so the
community meal that we do each month at Trinity
brings people in for the community. Many of the
members of the church volunteer to help out to
run the program, but we're bringing in people
in the community who are facing food insecurity,
who are facing social isolation, and we're providing
good food and a great environment, a great community,
friendship, and I think that is kind of in the
face. It's the community coming together to care
for each other and to do that in relationship
over a good meal. That's a cure -all, if anything
else is. In the short time that we've been doing
it, I think we've experienced a lot of really
great benefits that have come out of that. Yeah,
for sure. I feel like we've ended up in this
place that we come to again and again throughout
our conversations, which is that our sins and
the antidotes to these sins are all about balance,
right? It's all about, you know, the seven deadly
sins are all about, you know, the things that
we are trying to go for in place of God. Yes.
And the antidotes to these sins, the things that
help us is bringing whatever it is, whether it's
food or sex or money or power, bring that back
into its proper place. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And I think so, yes. It's the balance. When you
talk about the balance, I was thinking, well,
actually, it's about that reorientation towards
God, recognizing the place, as you said, the
place of these in relation there and then recognizing.
how to avoid some of the insanity that happen
when they take up the place of an idol. So the
answer really is Jesus. It is Jesus. We joke
about that as a Sunday school thing. The answer
really is Jesus. It's Jesus as creator, right?
It's Jesus as Savior, it's Jesus as someone,
as comforter, as friend, as the one who shapes
your identity, as the one who calls you to follow
him and says his yoke is easier and his burden
is lighter than carrying all the burdens of this
world that you can exchange his following. And
Jesus said he is the bread of life. And he is
the bread of life. All the things. Yeah. No,
that's so good. Um, yeah, so thank you for this
conversation and for this whole series of conversations.
I think this has been a really hopeful way to
lean into some of the problems that we sometimes
experience in our culture, but also the hope
that is offered to us through the way of Jesus.
Well, thanks for the opportunity. Yeah, thanks,
Kyla. Thanks, Bill. And thank you for tuning
in and listening to us throughout this whole
conversation. I hope that you have also been
able to find some moments of hope, some moments
of ways to move forward and pursuing the way
of Jesus, even amidst all of the challenges of
this life. So we'll see you again next week.