Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana.
And my name is still Bill. And I'm Johanna. And
we are here to continue unpacking our sermon
series together. Today we're specifically talking
about a sin called wrath. Now when you hear the
word wrath, Bill, what's the first thing that
comes to mind? Well, the first thing that comes
to mind is my experience of Wrath as a kid and
that was watching the Star Trek movie Wrath of
Khan. Right, okay. The character Khan was very,
very angry. Yes. And he was just all about revenge
and wanting to pay back ten times. all the people
that he felt did him wrong. Okay, ten times specifically.
Wow, I mean, it's just a lot. It was very overkill.
And I think, kind of reflecting on it afterwards,
that was a pretty good depiction as a character
of Roth. It really was the Roth of Khan. Okay.
I think though, outside of maybe Roth of Khan...
And maybe sometimes in church, we talk about
like the wrath of God. But in general, wrath
is not a commonly used word, I don't think. So
maybe let's start there. What are some other
words that maybe are similar to wrath that people
use more commonly? Angry. Angry. Okay. Rage.
Rage. Yep. Infuriating. Infuriating, yes. Other
things. Like, contempt is kind of similar to
wrath. Resentment. Resentment is kind of similar
to wrath. Distain. Distain, yes. See, we're just
like a living thesaurus here. That's great. So,
okay, so there's all of these words, but how
are they different than wrath? Maybe let's start
with anger, because that's probably the most
common. What are some similarities between anger
and wrath, and maybe what are some differences?
I'd say anger is the umbrella term. Okay. You
know. I mean, and then the others speak to different
intensities or durations or kinds of anger. Resentment's
a much more simmering internal anger towards
somebody that doesn't necessarily get expressed,
whereas rage just feels excessive, very expressed,
right? Violence. And so, yeah, anger feels like,
you know, when we think about anger management,
we are talking about like something broader,
right? So, yeah. That would be my answer. They're
all aggressive, I guess. They're all rooted in
some form of aggression. It's about how you then...
express that aggression, right? That sort of
gives us some of those nuances. Yeah. Yeah. I'd
differentiate between anger and wrath. I think
a wrath and just to say that, you know, anger,
when we're talking about it as a seven deadly
sin, it is... Anger is not the sin is wrath is
the sin, right? So so and and we read in scripture
and we heard today from Rob that that you can
be angry and not sin So so and then but when
it's when you're talking about Roth in the Bible
It's it is talking about, you know going past
that feeling of anger and to into an inappropriate
action, right? And I think it's more similar.
I think rage and Roth is more similar. I think
Roth is not a word that's is commonly used in
our in our culture, but I think everyone understands
rage and that it's like you can be angry and
it is an emotion, you know, and it could be aggressive
emotion. But when you think about rage, it's
definitely that right. It's aggressive and it's
hurtful and it's and it's and it's out to get
you. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's like that
anger, which is yeah, I'm like. Unhappy about
something I like something is wrong in the world
and then rage or wrath is like I'm gonna like
hurt somebody Right, right because of this emotion
or this experience that I'm having. Yeah So you
already just alluded to build we can be angry
and not sin So how does that work? When is anger
sin and when does anger become? wrath or sinful
Any thoughts on that? Yeah. Oh, I mean, I'd like
to refer to the sermon today. Sure. I actually
thought that Pastor Rob's notion that sinful
wrath is very often too hot. So explosive, impetuous,
unthoughtful, uncontrolled in the moment. Lasts
too long. That's your resentment, that sort of
planning vengeance. That's, you know, that sense
of holding on to grudges. or misguided. It's
not directed at an appropriate thing. Somebody
cuts you off on the road and you just, you know,
and you respond. And it's not an injustice that
you're angry at. It's a kind of hurt ego or it's
some sense of something. It's a minor inconvenience.
Right. And you end up exploding in anger against
them. And so you've got. the things that, the
ways you can be angry, as well as what you're
angry at, and in both ways it's possible to sin.
Right. Yeah, I'm thinking for Roth, the... in
the Bible, the wrath is often reserved for God,
right? For us, it's talked about as a sin, but
when you read about wrath in the Bible, the wrath
of God, or the God's wrath is upon us, or the
day of wrath is often referred to as the final
judgment in the end times. So I think it's okay.
We'll let Him have it. Let God have the wrath.
I think He can do it right. And I think we get
it wrong a lot of the times. And it even cautions
us in one of the scriptures that... was in Rob's
sermon today, was from Romans 12 .9. It says,
do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave
room for God's wrath, for it is written, it is
mine to avenge, I will repay, says the Lord.
And so, yeah, we can be angry and we can respond
in our anger, but I think when it comes to wrath,
I think we leave it for God. Right, right. Yeah,
so then that takes us back to asking, okay, like
where... Where is the line? Right? Like and and
so I think you started to answer that right to
say like if it's burning too hot Burning too
long and directed at the wrong thing So I think
that gives us sort of three helpful guidelines,
but I think it's still it's hard to know Sometimes
right like what I also sorry if I could add also
like when you're angry What are you you know
that notion of what you're directly angry at
and what you hope to achieve? And I think one
of the ways you can think about anger also is
especially in respect to another person Yeah,
right. Do you want them to hurt or is your goal?
Correction guidance reconciliation, right? Yeah.
Yeah. So when we were talking earlier this week,
like you brought up, you know parenting Yes,
right parenting like there are times and I have
to be stern with the kids, right? You know simply
consistently being nice, you know, there are
times and they need to know that there are consequences
for either, you know, some things they could
be doing that are actually dangerous and harmful
for them in the long run, right? And I need to
be stern about making those clear to them. And
so, you know, if I scold them, there's an anger
that is geared towards... correction, towards
guidance, towards building them up. And that's
very different from lashing out, wanting somebody
to be hurt. And so those goals have to be differentiated.
Anger is a tricky thing, right? We're told that
being angry is okay, but in your anger, don't
sin. So there is a line that you're talking about.
And then we're also told that we shouldn't rush
to anger. So another scripture verse, James 1
.19, my dear brothers and sisters, take note
of this. Everyone should be quick to listen.
slow to speak and slow to become angry. So there's
a good model for us in terms of how to deal with
anger and that ultimately anger by itself is
not the solution. Another verse is because human
anger does not produce the righteousness that
God desires. I think it's okay for us to be angry,
but if angry is our solution, then we're not
giving God the space to provide the solution,
right? Either for our own self and how we feel
or in the response to whatever we're angry about.
In our culture today, like we said, we don't
use the word wrath. We do talk about anger. We
talk about or we feel resentment. So is there
a sense, like, how does our culture sort of treat
these words? Is anger seen as an appropriate
thing? Is it seen as something that we're not
supposed to express? Yeah, I think you were sort
of sharing with me earlier that there was some
tension there, right? I guess so. Yeah. I mean,
like, it's... kind of okay to be angry like it
just is but in some cases people feel like they
need to repress it yeah and that's when it gets
like really unhealthy is when you just have anger
building up and you keep putting it down right
it has nowhere to go and that can actually manifest
in like physical symptoms of like um like bad
health and stuff so right yeah that's kind of
what i was talking about yeah yeah and i think
there is a sense in which Throughout this whole
series, we sort of come back to there's often
two extremes in which people respond to things,
right? And so there is, I think you're right,
a very real sense of like, it's okay to be angry,
right? And people are encouraged to express that.
But I think there are also circumstances and
sort of subcultures in which it says, never ever
be angry about anything, right? And then it does
lead to those like negative health effects like
you were talking about. Yeah. Other thoughts,
like what does anger look like? in our culture,
is it acceptable? I think, sorry, I thought our
culture was just, it's almost categorized certain
kinds of anger as harmful. And so I think that's
easy to recognize. Abuse, assault, right? We
have these words for anger expressed in these
really harmful ways. Bullying even, you know,
what does it mean like? On the other hand, I
think that there are... Our culture feels more
and more angry in many ways, despite calling
all these out. You've got the internet that makes
anonymity, where people are aggressive on the
internet. They can bully on the internet. They
can threaten on the internet without consequences.
And they can dehumanize whoever's on the other
side. And so you've got increasing senses of
fear when we've got this kind of... digital culture
of anger that is easily expressed and it's everywhere.
If you're online in these spaces, whether it's
Facebook or social media or anywhere, you know
that that exists. So that's one space where I
think our culture, on the one hand, it is calling
out anger and on the other hand, there are entire
spaces where it's prevalent and it's destructive.
and I was thinking as you were talking there
like I wonder if part of the reason that anger
gets expressed so easily on the internet is because
we don't have enough other spaces to express
it in a healthy way maybe that's true maybe that's
not but I think folks are feeling a sense of
anger a sense of like injustice, and they just
don't know what to do with it. And suddenly they're
given the internet where they can do that. Right.
Openly and anonymously in some cases. That becomes
a problem. Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes it's
a case of injustice. Sometimes it's a case of
wounded pride. Sometimes it's a case of entitlement.
Sometimes it's like there's a range of other
issues. Sometimes it's the sense of helplessness.
People needing help, feeling a lack of agency,
feeling a lack of that help, and then sort of
burning and resent. and anger at any number of
things. So there's all kinds of ways in which
the internet creates a forum for people who feel,
I would say, fear or helpless in certain ways
to sort of lash out. I think that's very well
expressed, Jordana. For me personally, I think
I struggle with anger, but maybe in a different
way. I often get people say to me, you know,
Bill, how come you never get angry? And and I
guess that's because I don't physically show
my anger. I don't get angry at people. But that's
mostly because I just keep it. Bottled up inside
sure and and I think you know not to go into
you know psychoanalyzing things, but I be It's
all my mother's fault No, it's just like I think
I just had You know I had some not very good
examples of how to deal with anger Sure, and
and I didn't want that to be part of my life
But again like we said you know one one it you
know one way pendulum swing to the other way
and the so because I didn't want to be an angry
person I guarded that in my life and just my
outward expression, it was always kind of just
to not show anger, but bottling that up inside
just, and Rob talked about it, about inappropriate
expressions of anger, right? When you don't deal
with anger, you're not appropriately angry in
your life, then it gets bottled up. And for me,
it came out in just being, in lashing out at
the people that I love the most, right? And so
instead of directing that anger in a positive
direction or towards those who needed to hear
it, I was just lashing out at, I mean, it was
eating me up inside and then it was coming out
in inappropriate ways, like affecting my family
and loved ones and stuff, which is not cool.
No, no. the other thing that i think about when
i think about like the internet is this term
like rage bait that like people put things out
there specifically because they want to make
other people angry and react to them and if we're
really honest there is a a little guilty pleasure
in the back of our minds that like is enjoying
watching internet debates play out. I don't know.
I don't know. Popcorn. Yeah. Yeah. It's like,
oh, they said that. Ooh, they took it there.
Like, yeah, I don't know. So I don't know what
that says about our culture. Yeah. I think that's
part of the architecture, though, of the internet
in certain ways. Right. And actually, that was
that it was one of those debates that got me
off Facebook because. it was a few years ago
now and a friend who I knew well in person you
know had posted something in a way that I knew
he would never do in real life and there was
this debate that happened online and then I went
to respond and I stopped myself I was like no
I wouldn't do this and you know and I also knew
that he would say this very differently, much
more gently. I knew the kind of person he was,
but the tone of contempt, of anger that emerged
online was so different from what I knew he could
be. And then I recognized how I was responding.
I was like, look, I just have to stop this. I
don't like what I'm seeing in you. I don't like
what I'm seeing in this medium, which is encouraging
and enabling this kind of speech. and I don't
like my own response and that was the point at
which I said I'm getting off this. You know,
it felt like even though we had not actually
spoken, it felt like our... relationship had
shifted based on how I was seeing him and all
of these sort of you know complicated emotions
were clashing and I thought this is not healthy
you know and it was the point at which I had
just stopped being on Facebook. It's good to
know when to check yourself yeah in a professional
setting. When I got angry about stuff, I would
allow myself to write the letter that I wanted
to write. So if I was responding to something
in association or whatever the situation was,
something got me angry. So I wrote the letter
that I wanted to write or the email that I wanted
to write, and then I gave it a day. And then
I would look at it again and maybe show it to
a couple of people and that kind of stuff. And
I'd realize that in my anger, I went too far.
And so I could say the same things, but less
inflammatory, less accusingly. And so having
given it that time and get the... comments or
reflections of a couple of the people, I was
able to rewrite that letter, rewrite that email
in a way that maybe would bring about a more
positive result as opposed to just more wood
to the fire. Right. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So
we've been talking about anger in a sort of neutral
or negative sense in which, you know, sometimes
there are the things that don't, that shouldn't
cause us to be angry, that do, that cause us
to lash out. But what about when there's things
that, like, we should be justifiably angry about.
Is that possible for us to have a kind of righteous
anger or justified anger? I think definitely.
Definitely we can have a righteous anger. Okay.
So what does that look like? When does that happen?
So, I mean, when I think of righteous anger,
I always think of both the anger at something
worthy of being angry about, something that is
unjust, something that somebody's oppressing
someone. and the way the response is directed.
Both have to matter. So I think we live in a
culture where a lot of people are very righteously
angry and are not necessarily responding because,
and that's one of the dangers of I think sinful
anger, just going back a little to sinful anger.
The danger is that you feel you're right. And
so you feel justified. in victimizing somebody
else or really harming somebody else because
you're the right one and they deserve to be hurt
or they deserve to pay or they deserve to...
That's where I think even when you are right,
a response can be really problematic, right?
The places where you've got a directed anger
and I'm thinking of the greats, right? Nelson
Mandela, Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King Jr.,
even Gandhi's nonviolence, sort of you oppose
the injustice in a way that does not... reduce
the humanity of the other people. Like, if you
think about Jesus' notion that we pray for our
enemies, love our enemies, right? You know, be
angry and don't sin, don't pull from today's
sermon, don't take vengeance into your own hands.
One of the things that anger can tempt us to
do is to reduce the other person to their mistake
or to their fault. And it is a fault, right?
It is an injustice. And I think there's always
a sense in the Bible that that, given the grace
we have received, That is not the answer. You
do not reduce the person you oppose to their
fault. And so even anger that is expressed in
times of injustice, if that goal is in building
and reconciliation, correction, if it's always
just, well, now we will be deciding on justice
for you, that gets dangerous, I think. even a
righteous anger can be directed in really harmful
ways. Sure. I think there's a difference between
wrath and righteous anger, and maybe that wrath
part is where it goes into not positive direction,
but when you think of wrath, I'd say that wrath
just wants to start a fight, and then righteous
anger, this was said in the sermon today, righteous
anger wants to do what's right. And I really
like that turn of phrase. And I think it does
speak to the heart of both what wrath is all
about and what righteous anger is all about.
And for me, I think righteous anger is never
about me. And I think that's the distinction
when I'm thinking about being angry or feeling
wrath or rage. It's often an injustice. That
I feel is against me right and and so I kind
of check myself in that situation I think righteous
anger is most often I can include you but it
does it but it's It is being angry about what
is happening, something bad happening to other
people. People are being oppressed or they're
being abused and you get angry about that and
want to do something about that. I just do want
to add though that if somebody has been on the
receiving end of abuse, they might feel angry
and they'd be right to be. Oh, of course. So
when you said it's only about other people, I
just wanted to include - No, I didn't say it's
only about other people. people. I said when
it's only about me. then I check myself to make
sure that it is an appropriate anger and responding
appropriately. For me, it's a red flag. It's
not an absolute one way. Very few times am I
an absolute one way or the other. Yeah, you were
speaking about your own... I just misunderstood.
You were speaking about your own experience.
I was just going to suggest for somebody listening
if they've been on the receiving end of that
kind of... assault or abuse, you know, it may
not, it may be about them in the sense of that
healing that is necessary, that working through
that, you know, the sort of pursuing of justice.
It's perfectly okay for them to be angry, right?
But in their angry, in their anger, they can
also sin. in responding to that, right? I heard
a really powerful sermon on healing from a Baptist
bishop in the States 20 years ago. And he was
speaking to people who have been abused in the
church. I mean, in the congregation, not necessarily
abused by the church, but I guess that counts
too. But he was speaking to people who had been
abused and who were hurt and in pain and angry.
about that abuse and he was challenging them
and it was really challenging but he was challenging
them to let go and to forgive and on the basis
of that that hurt and pain and anger that they
felt day after day was just their abuser abusing
them again and again and again and if they forgave
them, they let it go, then the power of that
abuser in their life would dissipate. Sure. Yeah,
I think that's true and helpful. I think, again,
always always going back to the pairing of things.
But I think you need to pair that also with the
message that there is a time to be angry. Yeah,
there is a time to feel that and that, you know,
we don't jump right to. Letting it go and and
what letting it go looks like I think is an important
thing to say in that conversation too, right?
Yeah, because I would never want to say to anyone
who's experienced any kind of abuse, you just
need to forgive them. And therefore that means
they get off scot -free. There's no due process.
There's definitely a process. Yeah, no, I know
that's not what you're saying. I just want to
make that explicit. No, no, I agree. Thank you.
And including certain kinds of actions that redress,
right? Like you would do and can and it's legitimate
to pursue a legal... Sure against them to to
direct that anger towards the law towards yeah,
you know seeking for help towards those spaces
where Vengeance is not the place you go right
and at the same time You act in the cause of
justice to to sort of hold the oppressor the
one who has oppressed to account for sure And
those are places that we need to sort of speak
to us. Yeah for sure. Yeah, I wonder Johanna,
when you think about this concept of righteous
anger, or being angry about the right things,
what comes to mind for you? Oh my gosh, I don't
get angry that often, to be honest. I mean, the
only thing I think of is I don't get angry often,
and then the few times I do, it's really, really
disproportionate. It'll be like I stub my toe
and it's like, oh my gosh, I hate everything.
Sure. Or, I don't know, just like... Finding
ways to express it, like that's what comes to
mind for me, is like finding ways to express
any type of anger that you experience, whether
it's righteous or unrighteous, is probably really
important because that's like... what affects
other people and also yourself. So I mean, one
thing I tried was boxing, but in the first week
I sprained both of my wrists on separate occasions
because I was hitting wrong and very hard. And
yeah, that probably wasn't like a good way to
express my anger because it was unsafe. So not
angry at all is what you're saying. I mean, I
don't know. You sprained your wrist hitting people.
Yeah, I did. No, no, no, not people. Oh, things.
Yeah, it was like a big punching bag thing. Oh,
those punching bags cause damage. And it was
really hard, actually. So when I hit it, then
yeah, it's like... almost fractured but oh my
goodness yeah yeah that's a little intense yeah
so i'm not the best with like anger sure no that's
fair um but i also think about like other conversations
that we've had around you know things like fast
fashion or like social media or things like that
where you like are really passionate about those
things i never think of that as me being angry
well maybe it doesn't express itself as anger
yeah it's just yeah i'm just like Zealous. Yeah.
I'm not really mad or irritated. I don't get
frustrated that often. I'm just kind of here.
Fair. I feel like that's maybe not an anger,
but it's like an underlying passion that then
fuels itself into... Right, action and decisions
that you make about, you know, what you're going
to buy, where you're going to spend your time.
But that could start with being angry about the
injustice. Yeah, yeah, that's true, actually.
Like, I mean, they do, like, make me not happy.
Yeah. OK, well, that's one way to say it. You
have more chill language for your anger. Yeah,
I guess so. And that's not a bad thing. No, not
a bad thing at all, for sure. Yeah. So then we're
talking about wrath talking about anger And we've
sort of danced around some of the ways that it
might be helpful or it might be harmful So if
someone is feeling like anger is a big part of
their life and they're feeling like it's not
something that's helpful What would be some sort
of steps forward that that we might sort of suggest?
Like maybe like just seeking catharsis like that
stuff that'll just Just express it and get it
out of your system so that it's not like a constant
in your life. Like punching a punching bag. I
didn't have gloves either. I just kind of went
for it. Right. I mean, see, so that example like
calls to mind for me. I can think of like as
a teenager in high school, there's all kinds
of anger flying around for lots of different
reasons. But like people's go -to response and
sometimes my go -to response was just to like
hit something, right? Just like hit like, I don't
know, the wall or like a bathroom stall. Oh,
you see, you don't know. There's a big dent in
one of the lockers in my high school. Yeah, because
somebody gets really angry and like, okay, yes,
that is a kind of catharsis, but the kind of
catharsis you're calling for is like something
that's actually like healthy and helpful and
will not harm you. Yoga, that's nice. Yeah. Or
like, do hit a punching bag safely. Yeah. Whatever
you need. Put the gloves on next time. Yeah.
But the other thing I would say is reflect on
why you're angry, right? Sure. Is something happened
to you that feels a little out of control? Sure.
And you wanted it, you know, you had your own
plans, your plans are gone. Is that why you've
exploded? Yeah. Or are you feeling frustrated
about something and you're lashing out? Or what
is the real emotion below the anger? Right. Is
there fear for something? I know the times when
I have. sort of barked at my kids the worst has
been out of a space of fear like oh my god you
know this is going to be damaging for them and
you know when i shouted them in those moments
is way worse than when i have a sense of i'm
guiding you right you know and so i've had to
apologize to them in cases like that so in situations
where Anger becomes something where you're not
reflecting on what is happening there. What is
really, is it a sense of lack of agency? Are
your plans out of thing and you've got a deadline
coming up? Or is there fear there? Is there helplessness
there? Do you need to seek help instead of just
expressing the anger? Is there something deeper
happening that you need to reach out? So if you're
not getting to the root of why you're angry,
there are times when I snap at the kids because
I'm just tired after a long day of work and they
haven't done what they should do. It's like before
I know it, I've snapped at them, right? Like
a lot, when I could have been more gentle in
telling them what to do. And so in those cases,
yeah, I have to like, oh my goodness, I'm tired
here. I'm losing patience easily. Right. So there
are these other things that underlie anger and
it's worth reflecting on what it is that's making
you. Exactly. I think that kind of reflection
and that kind of understanding of self is so
important for us to... to in terms of how we
deal with anger. I think also we could look to
Jesus as an example. I think Rob did a great
job bringing up three or four different situations
in Jesus' ministry where he got angry about something.
And so following that model, what are we? What
are we getting angry about? Why is it making
us angry? What are the things, the positive,
healthy ways that we can respond to that and
just follow Jesus' example of what He did and
why? And look into that a little bit in our own
personal... a faith story or journey. And I do
want to reiterate what Rob says about praying
your anger, right? It has helped me. You know,
there will be times that I will tell God, I'm
just furious. I'm so angry right now or I am
afraid or I am, you know, just that. If we talk
about healthy expressions of anger, that's a
great place to have a healthy expression of anger.
So you are expressing the frustration. the fury,
the upset, whatever it is you're feeling, and
there's somebody listening who can take it. And
as you can release it to God. And I think that
is so important to be able to process what is
happening within you, and at the same time not
to damage relationships and things around you.
Yeah, the last thing I would just say is, you
know, something that you said when we were talking
earlier this week was thinking about, like, the
spiritual dimension of what's happening as well,
which goes back to, you know, what you were saying
about who is my anger directed at? Yeah. Right.
Like when there is something in the world that
is making us angry, it's because often something
is not right in the world. And the reason that
something is not right in the world is not because
this specific person is a terrible person. It's
because the whole system the whole world is broken,
right? And so, like, our anger doesn't need to
be directed at, you know, wrath or vengeance
upon this particular person. It's let's recognize
the, like, whole system here and recognize that,
like, yeah, there God calls us to love our enemies.
God calls us to pray for those who persecute
us. And that's real hard. It's really hard. But
What it gets at is that underlying like spiritual
dimension of sin and brokenness in the world
that Ultimately, if not in this lifetime, maybe
in the next like we do get that sense of like
peace and reconciliation Yeah, even if it's through
a hard process. Yeah. Wow. Yep. Well said It's
a really good place to direct your anger and
have an understanding, and spiritual understanding
of your anger. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, pairing
that with some of this other practical stuff,
you know, we don't want to look at the world
only through this spiritual lens. We know that
we also live as people in bodies who experience
broken things, but I think we bring them together
really well. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, folks.
This has been… a hopeful conversation about anger,
which is really good, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And so for those who are listening, thank you
for tuning in and listening to us talk this through.
And hopefully it's prompted some reflection in
your life as well. And you can find some helpful
ways to move through those situations that cause
anger in you. And we'll see you again next week.