Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana.
My name is Bill. And I'm Johanna. And we are
continuing our podcast series where we're reflecting
on the sermons or the teaching that just took
place during our service. And today's topic is
a little bit awkward. But also I think something
that's really important and something that actually
one of our viewers requested that we talk about
this topic even before they knew about the sermon
series. So that I think shows that this is something
that's important that people are thinking about
and want to talk about. And that is lust. So
before we dive into what lust is and sort of
what that looks like, as I said, it's really
awkward. It's hard to talk about. Why? What do
we think makes this so hard for us to talk about?
Bill? Well, I'm not sure what you mean because
of all the seven deadly sins, I think this is
the one that I relate to the least. So I really
don't know what the big deal is or what we're
talking about here. This is not an issue for
me at all. I hope you got the sarcasm in my voice.
The denial. If you don't laugh, you're going
to cry. I know. Johanna, what do you think makes
this so hard to talk about? Probably just our
attitude towards it in general as a society.
You're either very for it and very brazen, just
go out and hook up every day of the week. Or
you're very prudish about it, almost, is what
it feels like. So then with everyone in the middle
ground of like... I don't know. It's just whatever.
Then they feel uncomfortable because there's
those extremist sides, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. It
feels like we have to like be on one side or
the other side, but actually most of us are in
the middle and just don't know what to say. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'd also say, you know, I mean,
on the one hand, I completely agree with Joanna
here. I think that there are so many different
ways of thinking about it, and some of them are
very fraught, right? And so you tend to avoid
a conversation. But on a more healthy scale,
too, I also think that sexuality, right, is very
intimate. very personal, chances of you just
speaking openly about it with somebody who isn't
a long -standing friend or a close family member
are slim. So even in that just the ordinary sense
in which sexuality is very personal and private,
like you tend to just avoid the conversation.
Sure. Yeah. And that is, in a sense, somewhat
natural as well. Sure. Yeah. I think we just
don't talk about sex. Right. Even the healthy
and appropriate. sexual part of who we are as
humans. It's just awkward just to talk about
it even in a positive way. It's also kind of
gross when you think about it. Like, it's kind
of gross to talk about. I mean, you don't have
to talk about the weird details, I guess. But
like, yeah. And that sort of points to how intimate
it is, right? And how private it is. And so then
maybe others don't want to hear about that level
of intimacy with you. And so that ends up being
a place where we are silent. We give up the opportunities
to speak in healthy ways. I think that comes
with the danger of not sometimes addressing it.
Then it just feels like it's always related to
some amount of shame or, you know. And that's
not the case in so many ways. It doesn't have
to be. It doesn't have to be. Yes, you're right.
It doesn't have to be. Yeah, for sure. It's hard
to talk about, but I think for the purpose of
this conversation, it would be helpful for us
to define lust so that we know what it is that
we're talking about. So one definition that I
read that actually aligns closely with what Rob
was saying in the sermon was that lust is treating
people as objects for our own pleasure. So we're
sort of denying the humanity of another person
and they're just becoming a thing. that gives
us some sort of pleasure. And that pleasure might
happen just in our mind, or it might happen sort
of through physical actions. And just to unpack
that a little bit, which also came out in Rob's
sermon, was the sense that on the one hand, you
reduce the full humanity of the other person,
right? But by also... only thinking about your
own pleasure you reduce the full humanity of
yourself in relationship like sexuality or sex
is inherently relational right like you can it's
not just like another appetite you can eat a
meal alone yeah right you can't have you necessarily
sex although like it's inherently relational
i think i think i think you have to simulate
something else what i mean if you're gonna do
anyway let's let's let's move away from the awkwardness
but what i'm saying is that well what i am saying
is that that inherent relationality is the way
at least by the bible talks about you know people
in relationship and so um to only reduce it to
the set your own sensation is also not bringing
your whole self into relationship and that can
be why I think you can objectify others, you
can reduce yourself, the humanity of the other
person is reduced, the humanity of yourself is
reduced, and all of that seems to take place
when we're talking about lust. Yeah, thanks to
her for saying that, because I think a very similar
kind of idea around that. For me, personally,
I know when I'm in a state of lust, right? I
mean, I just have a sense of that. I might not
be able to define it, you know, but I just kind
of know when it's happening. And I think, but
it's really helpful to be able to. kind of spend
some time thinking about it and, um, and just
kind of knowing yourself more around that. And
I think when I did, when I have thought about
it, um, it's for me, it's really about relationship
and you, that's exactly what you talked about
was relationship and lust. damages and erodes
relationship. Your relation to yourself, right?
I mean, you become disassociated with yourself
when lust takes a priority over your life. It's
no longer healthy sexuality, and it's a preoccupying
desire that's inappropriate, illicit, and it
destroys self. And I think also it destroys your
relationships with other people, right? It destroys
your relationships with other people that you're
engaged in lust. with, and ultimately it destroys
your ability to be in relationship with everyone
else, right? Because that sense of everyone is
an object of your own desire. You can't care
and love for someone who is an object. And so
that's, for me, it's a lot about relationship.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So we are talking about
lust primarily in terms of sexual desire, but
I think it's fair to sort of point out that in
our culture, in our vocabulary, we also talk
about lust for other things sometimes, right?
So we'll talk about lust for power. That's the
first one that comes to mind. Are there other
things that come to mind for folks when we think
of lust? I mean, that is the one that really
first comes to mind because, you know, it's that
intensity of desire for something quite powerful.
Right. And so, you know, and so, yeah, that is
the first one. You can use lust in a different
way. Lust for pleasure is another one. Sure.
Lust for... any number of things. But I mean,
most of the time when you think about lust or
when people are talking about lust, it's the
sexual nature. And, and Rob said in the sermon
today that yes, there are other things you can
lust for lust after, but when it comes to the
seven deadly sins, sorry, folks, we're talking
about sex. Yes. Okay. So is there something about
our current sort of North American Western culture
that makes. lust or sexuality more of a thing
than it has been in other times and at other
moments. It just seems to be really in your face,
I guess. I don't know. It's pretty normalized,
I feel like. Even the way that people talk to
each other, just the way you can compliment someone,
I guess. You can call them beautiful or intelligent
or anything actually nice. Or you can say that
Their ass is nice. You can say that? Yeah, yeah.
And I feel like that's kind of what... I'm not
going to say that. I feel like that's kind of
how people compliment sometimes is probably like
that. Or just in conversation with other people.
Just derogatory language, I guess. It's just
normalized. It's just how people talk amongst
each other for some certain settings. Yes. Maybe
in your generation more than Bill's. Maybe. Maybe
I used to be able to say that. It is normalized,
for sure. But I think we're also in a very hyper
-sexualized culture where not only is it normal,
but it is just in your face. All the time. And
I mean, I can't open, you know, Facebook or social
media and stuff without having to scroll past,
you know. you know, what is potentially kind
of inappropriate, uh, you know, videos or, or
whatever, you know, these TikTok things or, and,
uh, and it's, uh, but even, even not even beyond
social media, just in our, in our, in our, in
advertising. And it just seemed like sex sells,
right? I mean, that's, it's not, that's like
advertising one -on -one the, uh, the, uh, and
so it's always, it's always being used to say,
you know, that, um, you know, this, this is the
way to go. This is the better life, you know?
And it's accepted and normalized and it erodes
a lot of the healthy attitudes or healthy character
that we need to have as a society. It's constantly,
like I'm even thinking of Met Gala, you know,
costumes sometimes, right? Like it's just everywhere.
And it's also sort of reframed as body positivity
very often. And on the one hand, The whole notion
of body positivity is meant to move away from
that language of shame. Right. But on the other
hand, it is putting itself up completely as sexual
in isolation of relationship. Right. And so you've
got, you know, I'm proud of my body and I will
flaunt it sexually. Right. You know, and that's
different from I'm happy or grateful or proud
or, you know, all of the healthy ways you can
say I've received my body. It's God's gift. And
there are so many ways to think about our bodies
in a way that centers our dignity without necessarily
thinking I have to flaunt sexuality. And I think
our culture sort of slips down that way, that
route, really easily. So, yeah, it's everywhere.
It's in every television show, every movie. I
mean, one sociologist called it the pornification
of popular culture. Right. Right. Like it's just
out there all the time. It's actually hard to
to have healthy visions when it's just always
in your face. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like what.
And I struggle with the most, maybe not the most,
but one of the things that I struggle with is
the way that like sex and sexuality is sort of
positioned as like the ultimate good. Right.
As like, if you just like have the right partner
and they look the right way and you engage in
the right acts, you will be the happiest that
you could ever be in your life. Right. And that's
just like not. True. Nope. And not helpful. No,
it's not helpful. And the flip side of that is
if you don't have that, all of that, you are
incomplete, lacking, you know, and if you as
a Christian go down that route, you have no way
to contemplate Jesus and the disciples, right?
Like, you know, you'd literally have to say without
a happy family life, Jesus was lacking something
or the disciples were lacking something. And
so there is a, you know, I think, so it gets
very difficult in this culture which posits sex
as ultimate fulfillment, as a space of your fulfillment
to actually have a healthy sense of wholeness
outside of, you know, without necessarily going
down that route. I agree. I think we're created
to be sexual beings and there's a very healthy...
sense of sexuality that is part of who we are
and makes up who we are. But I don't think that
necessarily means that we have to have sex. No.
Right. Or that, you know, that there's, so I,
it'd be interesting to kind of, uh, think more
about, uh, what it, what it means to be a healthy
sexual human being. Um, and, um, and you know,
what that would look like in different situations.
Cause it doesn't mean, you know, you're not lacking
if you're not actually doing the act. I mean,
you are still a sexual being and you can be healthy
in your life one way or the other, I think. Absolutely.
So in order to combat this problem of lust, I
mean, Christian culture for a long time has recognized
that this is a problem. And so they've kind of
swung in the other direction to emphasize sexual
purity. And in some cases, I think that is potentially
helpful. You know, it encourages people to behave
in particular ways that we might think of as
more desirable, you know, waiting until marriage
to have sex. But I think it also creates a number
of other problems. Yeah. So just in your own
experiences and in sort of ways that you've thought
about this, how does this problem of emphasizing
sexual purity, like what challenges does that
create? Oh. So I think part of the problem with
the purity culture element of that Christian
ethos is that it's reductive, right? First of
all, it thinks about... sexual abstinence as
pure and with the implication without ever actually
saying it out that maybe once you have sex there's
the issue of purity disappears somehow less pure
you know less pure somehow it's just odd when
you think about the positive nature of sex within
the the fact that god created it right and so
that notion that you're pure by some kind of
behavior right as opposed to and then somehow
the issue goes away and just once you're married
is is an odd dichotomy. It feels so strange.
The language of purity in the Bible, I think,
has been sort of misused in that case. Like,
God makes us pure because He washes away all
our sins. It's not just in the area of sexuality,
right? This means that it's an ongoing... you
know, turning to Jesus, receiving his grace and
forgiveness, being washed, you know, having your
sins washed away. Those are things that happen
throughout your life, within your marriage, outside
your marriage, every area. And so, you know,
to actually say that the word pure only applies
to this kind of sex, you know, area of sexuality
is just very reductive. And it's not helpful.
It's not helpful for people to recognize. that
battles with lust, battles with unhealthy relationships
are going to be ongoing, whether you're married,
when you are married, right? And so it's really
reductive about the possibilities of healthy,
ongoing relationships and can leave people really
confused. Then when, you know, if the whole ethos
is... You're pure and wonderful if you abstain
before marriage. And then anything goes in marriage.
And then marriage doesn't work out that way.
It's really confusing. Yeah, yeah. And then forget
about after marriage. Like post -marriage. Right.
If a marriage breaks up. Anything goes. Anything
goes. Right. So you're talking about like if
a marriage breaks up, right? Yeah, that's right.
What happens? I was good. I was a good boy before
I got married. And I was a good boy during my
marriage. And unfortunately, my marriage broke
up. But now post -marriage. Yeah, the issue of
purity is gone. Exactly. I can do whatever I
want. And I'm like, what? There's no question
of purity anymore after that because it's being
only linked to abstinence, which is not at all
sort of, you know, that wholesome view of sin
and redemption that is emerging. I think part
of the problem with purity culture is that it's
trying to deal with just one problem, one issue.
And it elevates that one issue. Yes, in absence
or not considering anything else. And so, I mean,
it is trying to respond to a real pain that comes
out of, you know, when people get kind of sucked
into lust or they're doing things that they shouldn't
do. It does damage us. It does hurt us and hurt
others. And so they want to deal with that. But
it's the pendulum swing in the other direction,
you know, that in itself. causes pain and and
uh dissociates people from their faith and and
uh and is maybe even the this the the reason
that uh they feel shame or that shame just kind
of sticks to them for so long and they just like
oh well i was supposed to be poor But because
I wasn't pure, then now I can't go to church
now. I can't hang out with my friends anymore
because they're pure and I'm not. And then what's,
you know, with the purity thing, why is it just...
You know, sex. There's so many other things that
we, I mean, we're talking about six other deadly
sins. And there's other things beyond that, right,
that just cause us to be impure. It's not just
sex. Right. So what about all those things? And
so what's the answer? Yeah. And Johanna, you
were telling me before, you know, that it creates
some differences between like the way that we
treat. women and the way that we treat men and
yeah so i wonder if you can reflect on that a
little bit more um i mean i guess purity culture
like it's kind of enforced unequally um because
women are encouraged to you know be chaste and
modest for the most part and men from what i've
observed not as much if at all it's more of like
you know go get him tiger i don't know what you
say to your bro before they go out and like get
some I don't know why are you looking at me oh
my gosh but yeah like it's kind of like that's
what I say to all my bros before they go out
yeah well like it's unfair how it's like um like
it's not proportional at all and so you encourage
the women to be chased and you encourage the
men to chase and it just kind of like leads to
an unhealthy kind of culture of like i think
the word you used was rape culture yeah right
it creates this dynamic where yeah consensual
sex is hard to have because women always have
to say no and men always have to say yes yeah
because it's presumed that men are inherently
more sexual right yeah which yeah yeah it creates
this like Yeah, power imbalance. Yeah, and I
just don't think that's fair, I guess. Yeah,
for sure. It's not fair. But can you say that
phrase again? Because I love it. I don't like
it, but I love it. I'm being chased. uh you encourage
women to be chased chased yeah and then you encourage
men to chase to chase oh my gosh i that's that's
a great turn of phrase that just kind of nails
that whole situation so thank you thank you for
that yeah so we've talked about all of these
problems all of these less than helpful ways
to talk about sexuality and lust so what are
some helpful ways? What's a way forward to talk
about this? Because we do need to talk about
it. Yeah. So how do we do that? Well, yeah, I
think you need to speak about sexuality as good
in that long committed relationship, right? Part
of the issue with purity culture is how much
it just pretended the relationship itself was
not the problem. It was sex that was the issue
alone. But, you know, to have a positive, like
there is a good reason to wait until marriage.
Right. For sex. And that reason has to do with
the fact that biblically, the coming together
of two people sexually creates a union that is
meant to be permanent. Right. And the other thing.
So that's one element of it. And the other element
of it is that it is God who created marriage.
And so he is part of this story of you and someone
out of two people coming together. Right. And
so when. So as you think about his creation of
sex, his creation of marriage, his creation of
bringing two people together. Right. You're not
just two people doing it on just a purely human
plane. Right. God's involved there. And so marriage
begins to be something that, you know, it integrates
all of it. And which is why sex should occur
within that context. Right. Right. Yeah. So there
are really good reasons for. articulating that
sex within marriage right the whole person coming
into relationship with another whole person in
relation to what God has created right yeah and
I like that so the distinction you're sort of
making there because in some ways you know talking
about sex inside of marriage does seem to mirror
purity culture. It does. But what you're sort
of saying is like, it's actually in this context
of whole life. Yes. Right? It's not just in this
context of sex inside of marriage because it's
safer and it's meeting these certain rules. It's
no sex inside of marriage because... It's in
the context of like committed relationship. It's
in the context of... Loving, faithful, sacrificial.
Right. And you're making the point that not all
marriages are committed relationships. Sure.
Right. So the important thing is the committed
relationship. And in the context of marriage,
when that is a committed relationship, that all
works. Right. A healthy, committed relationship
where you're doing all of life together. So you
can't just say marriage. Sure. Right. Because
that's not a good experience for a lot of people.
Right. It hasn't turned out well for a lot of
people. So it's not a good. idea or you know
a good example sure but what we're trying to
say is that marriage in a committed healthy relationship
where two people love each other and care for
each other and they're committed to one another
right yeah and it's something you grow into even
within marriage right with sex being very much
that sort of coming together intentionally so
you know So it doesn't pretend like everything's
going to be fine just because you said some words
at an altar. It's that that is the ideal that
we need very much God to be holding us as we
go forward. And sex is part of that story, right?
Hence, so I think the church really needs to
articulate that healthy vision for us to make
sense of why. maybe sex outside of marriage isn't
great, why hookup culture isn't great, why porn
isn't great, right? You have to create that beautiful
God -created vision. Then you can recognize easier
where the distortions lie. But if you're not
going to articulate it, it just feels like a
whole lot of nonsensical rules and very constraining
and limited, right? And so that would be perhaps
a place to start. Yeah. What's the goodness here?
So I would say we need to start even before that,
because if you are lucky, blessed enough to have
a partner where you can figure that stuff out
with, that's great. But what about as a single
person or a young person before marriage or a
single person who goes through life unmarried?
Yeah. Like what is what is a healthy sexual?
understanding of yourself. I think that's really
important and maybe even necessary in order to
find that other person who you can then partner
with and share that intimacy with and a committed
relationship, right? But I think lust, we can
overcome lust, single or married, by first looking
at ourselves, right? We need a holistic, healthy
sense of sexualities for ourself and a basic
respect and regard for everyone else. I think
both those things are really important. We need
to understand ourselves and we need to care and
respect other people. So we need to look inside
and develop that character, you know, a discipline
of... It's like what Rob said in the sermon is
ahead of time, figure out what... what sex means
to you, figure out what, you know, what that,
what that relationship is. And the, so that.
when something happens, you know, you, you, uh,
uh, you already know where you stand, right?
What you believe, uh, that is so, uh, that is
so important. That's so crucial because in the,
you know, and, and Rob said in, in the back of
a, of a, a backseat of a steamy vehicle, you
know, maybe you're not, that's not the place
to be thinking your, your theology of sex is,
uh, and the, um, and, uh, and then the, uh, so
yeah, we need to look inside. And then I think,
uh, I think also we need to, We need to look
outside and just understand the culture that
we're in and how it affects us. Right. And and
just and that's part of what I've said about
respecting other people, because I think when
you. And why a relationship is so important.
Because if you care for other people, if you
know other people, if you're in a relationship
with other people, it's really hard to then begin
to think of them as an object. Right? And so
one of the things that I say to guys is... Is
get to be in relationship with people, get to
know people like that. And that whether we're
talking about, you know, sexual objects or not,
that, you know, getting to know is is a way to
humanize. people. Right. I mean, you've seen,
you've seen in the movies a little off topic,
but you've seen in the movies where, you know,
someone has a gun to the head of a main character
or some other character. And then that person
says, well, you know, my name's John and I, you
know, and I, and I have, you know, I have kids
and I have, what are they trying to do? They're
establishing a relationship with that person,
building a rapport, building a connection so
that the person is less likely to kill, shoot
and kill them. Right. And so similarly, you know,
in, in this sexual context of lust, right. When,
when we, uh, when, when we get to know the person,
we're less likely to, to feel lust or, uh, towards
that person. And I mean, I'm not saying it won't
happen. It can't happen, but I just, that, that,
that relationship developing of that relationship
rapport and the respect, um, from person to person
that that develops makes it less likely. To then
pull the trigger, right? And feel lust or act
lustily, you know, towards that person. Yeah.
So the last thing I would just say there is like,
we talk about... lust and sexual sin as if they're
like the worst of all the sins. I think you sort
of alluded to this earlier. And so I would just
say we need to emphasize grace. We need to recognize
that lust, that sexual sin is not an unforgivable
sin, right? It's something that falls within
that context of grace. In the last couple minutes,
I want us to just think about, okay, so that's
a sort of general framework. What are some really
practical things that we can do if we find ourselves
struggling with lust or even just living? this
culture of hypersexualization. So we've been
doing this fasting course here. And that's been,
fasting is a practice that happens throughout
Lent, you know, giving up food or giving up other
things as a way of sort of focusing our hearts
on God. But John Mark Comer, who leads this series,
one of the things that he says is that whenever
he's sort of counseling someone who is struggling
with sexual sin, he will encourage them to fast
from food. Wow. Okay. As a way of training your
body and your mind to say, I don't need to give
into every bodily desire and pleasure. Wow. Right.
That he makes that, that connection. So I thought
that was really interesting. Yeah. I saw that
Rob also made the connection between lust and
like disordered eating. And it made me think
of like, I guess a solution, which would be like.
okay so you know how some people will go on a
diet and they'll think of like chocolate and
pizza and candy yeah while they're on the diet
yeah yeah and then they'll think of like kale
smoothies is good and so that's like prescribing
like morality onto food it's just food versus
like I think you could also say that for um sex
is that like it's just it's not it doesn't make
you a bad person or a good person to engage in
sex and I feel like if we could think of that,
then it would make people feel more comfortable.
Right. It's all about the context, right? Cake
is good sometimes. If you have cake all day,
every day, maybe that's a problem. Yeah. That's
a problem? Yeah. Okay. Other practical practices.
I wanted to suggest that, and I've done this
in the past for myself, and is an accountability
partner. Yeah. It's just making a commitment
with one other, well, in my case, it was another
guy. I would just suggest that guy, guy, and
female. girl, girl, guy, something is more appropriate
for this particular kind of accountability partnership.
Uh, but the, um, uh, so, you know, I've over
the years, I've had various friends who I've
committed to, to, uh, kind of keep each other
accountable, uh, to, to this kind of thing. And,
um, I just, if I can just end with a verse, cause
I think there's, there's a verse that, uh, that
really kind of, um, uh, it speaks to this and
it's Romans 12 too. And it says, Do not conform
to the pattern of this world, but be transformed
by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be
able to test and approve what God's will is,
his good. pleasing and perfect will and I think
that in terms of practical ways to respond to
this and it's the warning is don't conform to
the pattern of this world don't get sucked into
the hyper sexualized culture right but instead
transform your heart and your mind according
to the will of God and just and that that and
then that becomes what your desire and your will
is you your your own desires come into closer
alignment with what God wants for us, for ourselves
and for others and the world. And I think if
we can start to practice this, then I think we've
got it. Yeah. Well, thank you, Bill, so much
for that. And thank you for listening to us this
week on Trinity Talks. I hope that you found
some helpful tidbits and things to take away.
And we'd love to hear from you as well. We'll
see you again next week.