Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana.
My name is Bill. And I'm Johanna. And this week,
we are continuing to talk about sin. Yes. But
we're talking about a very specific sin this
morning, and that is the sin of sloth, which
is not something that we talk about very much
at all. And maybe if you're listening you're
like sloth. What even is that? Is that a sin?
Yeah, so hopefully we can help unpack some of
that for you But first I want to start since
we don't talk about this word very often when
I say the word sloth What is the first thing
that comes to mind Johanna? Animal animal, okay.
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, okay bill What's the first
thing that comes to mind? Well, in our church
context, I know the old joke is, I know the answer
is supposed to be Jesus. Right. But I'm just
thinking of when I hear the word sloth, I think
of lack of caring and indifference. OK. OK. And
what about for you? Yeah, I would say inertia.
OK. Right. OK. So funny story. When I think of
sloth, what comes to mind for me is a slug. Because
I know okay, so when I was preparing for this
podcast I wrote on the outline sloth not the
bug Because for whatever reason I assumed that
the slug was called a sloth, but it's not sloth
is the animal anyway So I got all confused all
that to say we're not talking about slugs. We're
not talking about creatures in the forest We're
talking about sloth. Yes So what? What is that?
When we talk about sloth in a Christian context,
in the context of sin, how would you sort of
describe it? Me? Well, I said inertia. That sense
of just not wanting to do what you need to do.
That's what I would say. You're just stuck. Yeah.
Anything you would add to that, Bill? Well, I
think sloth is apathy, it's indifference. I think
one definition was a culpable lack of in effort,
disregard of your obligations to family, to work,
to church, to your own life, your own spiritual
life. Culpable is the big word there. Yeah. You
know what you're supposed to be doing, but you're
definitely not doing it. And you're responsible
for the fact that you're not doing it. Right.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What about for you? Yeah. How
would, how would you sort of think about that
word? I guess like for me, I would think of like
waiting too long. Like, you know what you're
called to do. You know what you're supposed to
do, but you're thinking. XYZ like I'm just gonna
wait until this happens or until that or until
I feel ready Just that like laying and wait and
not doing anything, right? Yeah. Yeah, I mean
it's I feel like it's this complex kind of a
thing, but it is, yeah, I think we've helped
sort of drill it down and it's very basic. It's
not doing the things that you know you're supposed
to be doing and you're not doing them. Yeah,
you are culpable in that you are responsible
for that somehow, which then leads into this
helpful distinction of like what is not sloth,
right? Because we sometimes think of it as, you
know, it's just laziness. It's just choosing
not to do the right thing or it's it's tiredness,
right? But I think those things are not quite
sloth. Is that fair to say? Right. I would say
laziness can be a component of sloth, but sloth
is so much more. Also, we talked about taking
a break. I think some people, and Rob joked about
this in a sermon, saying that going on vacation
is an example of sloth. I would say, no, that's
not either. there's very good reasons for us
to take vacations, to even take a sabbatical,
right? The Bible talks about taking a sabbatical,
taking time away from your regular work to recharge
emotionally, physically, spiritual. I mean, we
are told to do that, so obviously that's not
wrong. Yeah, and Jesus did that. Like, He has,
like, lit out away from all the crowds and all
the work so often, right, to get that rest. And
so you do know that those breaks are very much
part of who we are as humans. We need them. We
are creatures. And so to that extent, taking
those breaks is so important to recognizing your
limits. So it's not rest. It's not taking a break.
Rest is incorporated into who we are as human
beings. There's definitely a difference between
needing rest and a break and not wanting to do
anything all of the time. Yeah, and I think even
one of the distinctions I think we need to make
too is, even not wanting to do something all
the time, it really depends on your mental and
emotional and physical state. Because I would
not want to say, like Rob even said in his sermon,
sloth is not the same as depression, for example.
There's something about those who are living
with mental illness or those who are living with
chronic physical illness. That is not sloth.
That is a separate category of things that maybe
sometimes has the same consequences in the world.
Maybe it means you're not doing things, just
like sloth means you're not doing things. But
I would not put mental and physical illness in
the realm of sin. Yeah, I think you're right.
Depression might be a component of sloth and
being in a state of slothiness might cause you
to become depressed as a symptom, but I think
they're completely separate. I agree. Yeah. And
one of the things that you also mentioned to
me earlier this week, Johanna, was that, you
know, it's not the same as burnout, right? Yeah.
Yeah. So like, how would you sort of distinguish
those things? Well, To get burnt out, you have
to not be slothful in the first place. You have
to be doing a whole bunch of work and not prioritizing
rest and that work -life balance to burn out
because you've overworked yourself. In my head,
whenever I feel burnt out, I'm like, oh my gosh,
I'm being so lazy, I should be doing this and
this and that. But that mindset is why I'm burnt
out in the first place. And so it's not helping
me be... productive anyway. So yeah, it is different.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I just wanted to also say
that one of the interesting things that can happen
in burnout is a reflection that as much as we
have been exceedingly busy, if that busyness
came out of a lot of things we should not necessarily
have put our energies to. Sure. You know, then
there's an underlying slot to the busyness more
than the burnout. There's an underlying sense
of lack of reflection, lack of prioritization,
lack of putting the effort where it needed to
and saying no to a lot of other busy things that,
you know, as you said, can actually be quite
detrimental to us. So it's an interesting thing.
It's not the burnout that's a slot. Actually,
the slot might have happened. in the areas of
our busyness, right? And that's sort of what
can be quite interesting to think of, when you
think of Sloth as that, I don't know, lack of
balance in there, that inability to reflect on
what needed our attention and what didn't, or
what needed our energy and effort and what didn't.
Yeah. Yeah, so what you're bringing in then is
that, like, Sloth isn't just doing nothing. Sometimes
we are doing things. and being slothful in the
doing of things, which seems kind of contradictory.
What helps us then distinguish is this sloth
or is it not? In the sermon, Rob talked about
a couple of different examples of that. He talked
about entertainment that doesn't refresh. I thought
that was an interesting distinction. I mean,
we like to be entertained and it is a good way
to get away and to have some enjoyment, right?
But I mean, if it's just constant strolling on
our social media feeds or if it's binge watching
show after show, then we lose the benefit of
that action. Right. Because it's too much. Yep.
And the, you know, if we, if we strolled, sorry,
scrolled, if we scrolled a little bit as part
of our day, you know, then that would be a fun
and entertaining distraction. And then we go
back to, you know, what we're supposed to do
or same thing with watching TV or going to a
movie. It's not bad. But if that becomes... a
controlling factor of our life. If that's how
we spend so much of our time, then instead of
refreshing it, it itself becomes a drain. So
not only are you trying to escape from whatever
it is that's draining you, but you become involved
and active in something that drains you further.
And then that's where the whole kind of sense
of... sloth of lack of energy, lack of effort,
lack of will, and it really kind of comes into
play, right? For me, the scrolling is the worst
thing, I think, because... Okay, there's so many
ways to get entertained, right? But the scrolling
is just like very instant gratification and you
just keep doing it and you keep seeing cool stuff
and like you can't stop and then it's like three
hours later and your Bible is still open, but
you haven't read a single word. It's like, oh,
okay. So you have to like lock in again. But
I noticed that for me, like As opposed to scrolling
if I just even watch a movie just like short
form over like I mean long form over short form
content kind of is different like you just feel
different after sitting down and like expressly
watching a movie versus just when you're scrolling,
you're kind of thinking of a billion things at
once versus just the plot of one film. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think like you said, you know, you're
scrolling and you see all these cool things and
there's instant gratification. That definitely
happens sometimes. But my world is more I'm scrolling
and like doom scrolling. Yes. I'm scrolling and
like, wow, another crisis in this place. Oh,
that peace treaty didn't hold up. We're like,
oh, yeah. Right. And so like I think for me.
It's like, yes, the scrolling itself is an act
of sloth, but it actually feeds a deeper sense
of sloth because if sloth is thinking, OK, nothing
matters and this like temptation to give in to
despair, then like doom scrolling feeds that
hard. Yes. But it's also interesting because.
it feeds it without you recognizing that it's
doing that, right? You feel like you are engaged.
And that's the worst part about it. Because I
mean, that moment at the beginning when, sorry,
no, I am referring to the sermon, but you know,
when we talk about CS Lewis's quote, but never
purposeful opinions that lead to no action. Talk
about change, but never make it. Yeah. I mean,
scrolling ends up feeding that sense that we
are engaged in what is happening. Yeah. Yeah.
Right. Why are we very good citizens by knowing
what is happening in the world, right? By spending
seven hours reading and reading and reading and
scrolling without actually doing the important
acts, simple, humble acts of love that actually
do matter spiritually and in our relationships
with our families, with our friends. And so that's
where the danger, I think, of sloth comes. And
I think it's one of the most potent sins in our
world today, precisely because we are so bombarded
with ways to... fool ourselves that we are engaged.
I think that one of the things that I wanted
to bring up and I think that kind of goes into
that is the insidious nature of sloth. And it's
not something you don't wake up one morning and
you don't care and you're indifferent and you're
apathetic. It happens in very small increments.
It's like what your teacher was saying the very
first week you talked about. You don't start
with the big sins, you start with the little
sins. You tell a lie and then you cheat on a
test. And then once that becomes normalized,
that small sin becomes normalized in your life,
you're ready to take the next step. But I think
slothiness approaches us in the same way. It's
almost like the animal. It doesn't move more
than 32 meters in a day. It just moves very slowly.
I guess the insidiousness of sloth is that it
comes at you in that way, where you don't realize
it's happening. For me, personally, because I
really identify, of the seven deadly sins, this
one might be my favorite. I just have such a
personal experience of this in my life, of going
through what was likely years of slothfulness.
of apathy and indifference and not caring. And,
and, and for me it was, again, it wasn't just
an overnight thing. It was something that, that
came on me over time and just, and in the late,
like you were saying, in the busy -ness of our
work, right? I just hearing this small voice
in my head saying, Bill, you're not making a
difference. Right. And, and, or, you know, why,
why do you care? And, and it was, and it was
that kind of, I mean, it's like demonic influence
over my work and over my involvement with my
family and friends that just caused me over time
to just... My core to me is wanting to make a
difference. And so to attack on, you're not making
a difference. Why are you... putting in all that
effort. Right. And it's nothing's changing. You
know, people aren't changing. And the and so
all of a sudden you just start doing less and
less and you and you start thinking, well, yeah,
I'm going to watch that show, you know, all nine
seasons of the instead of doing, you know, you
know, something else because it doesn't really
matter anyway. Like, you know, you know, so I
stopped showing up and I stopped caring. And
it just and it was. And it just fed on itself
at that point. That's really corrosive at the
time. It spiraled downward. And then you don't
care. And then you aren't making a difference.
You're not showing up. You're not being present.
You're not engaging in the world. You're so jealous.
of that time for you, which may have been at
the beginning something that could have been,
maybe was good to take time away, like a Sabbath,
like a vacation. But when that's all that it
becomes, where you're saying every day, like
for a while, I was still working full time, I
was doing the job, but I mean, I didn't do anything
more. I put in the time and then I couldn't wait
to go home and just do whatever I wanted to do.
It was just about me. And so I disengaged from
community. I disengaged from family. I disengaged
from friends. I stopped going to church. There
was a time five, 10 years ago where I was barely
at church for a number of years. And it only
took an intervention of friends, close dear friends.
And many of them are in my Thursday morning life
group that said, Bill, enough is enough. You
know, that's amazing. We got to deal with this.
And I'm like, no. But, you know, they helped
me to confront it and to get past it. Yeah, yeah,
for sure. So when we think about our work -life
balance, as you were sort of just talking about,
you know, we can go to work and do the things
and we have a kind of hustle culture, right?
A sense of like really valuing productivity and
doing things out in the world. So how does sloth
fit into that? If we are so busy doing all of
these things, right? What does sloth look like
in hustle culture? I think sloth prevents us.
Hustle culture tells us that if we take time
to be still, to reflect, to not do active things,
then that is laziness. That you're not being
all you can be, you're not doing all you can
do. Sure. And that I think is completely antithetical
to God's sort of be still and know that I am
God. Like that it makes stillness and reflection
an enemy of achievement and fulfillment. Right.
So one of the things I think that Hasaltology
attempts us to do then is to do all the things
we do, you know, to keep ourselves in the know.
We have our work and now we're going to also
figure out, like spend some time, you know. getting
entertained, being up with the local culture,
being able to speak about X, Y, Z. It's going
to learn a new language on the side. It never
lets us off, right? But part of what Slot does
then is makes us stop. And I think here's where
the spiritual mention of Slot comes in, right?
It makes us stop caring about how important it
is to be slower. To be present in simple, small,
everyday jobs in our families with our friends.
We just sort of let those go. We stop caring
in areas, not caring completely, but caring in
certain important, crucial areas of our lives
where God tends to show up. Those are the ones
we tend to give up. So household culture can
be a really... It's a real temptation. Ask yourself
what you're giving up when it comes to your spiritual
walk with God and your engagement with your family
and community while you are so busy improving
yourself in 50 different ways. And you'll probably
begin to recognize the spaces where sloth is
a temptation. I feel like hostile culture is
really toxic because it really glorifies a really
poor imbalance. You'll be working around the
clock on something. It'll be like, wow, they're
such a go -getter. They're after their goals
and everything. Or you'll pull all -nighters
and it'll be seen as like, wow, so dedicated,
so motivated. But that's really bad for you.
And your brain needs to rest. I don't know. I
just know some people will be like, oh my gosh,
I only got three hours of sleep. And they'll
go comparing themselves to other people who had
maybe one hour of sleep. It's like, you can't
consistently function this way. So in a way,
you're kind of promoting laziness. Well, you're
performing like you're performing a lot. Yeah,
but up until like what point so there's gonna
be a crash Yeah, you crash and then you're gonna
be like lazy quote -unquote when really you just
need rest and then you conflate like laziness
for sloth and then you feel guilty because you're
sitting on top of feeling awful, so So what I'm
what I'm hearing from both of you is is that?
hyperculture is bad the sloth is bad and the
best way is to find the balance in the middle.
I would say the sloth is somewhere underlying
that hyperculture very often. I think that's
sort of part of what happens. I mean, not always,
right? I do want to distinguish between a genuine
sense that you want to be engaged and excellent
at what you work, you find value in it. That's
different from the sort of always do something,
be always on. um culture which is yeah somewhat
different yeah it's it's the motivation it's
a motivation yeah it's always that it always
goes back to like the things we can't quite see
yes yeah yeah i think what what i'm hearing is
is that the um uh that there's a good part to
uh the bad thing The desire to be productive
and to make a difference and to advance your
work, whatever sector you're in, that's a positive
thing. But if you go into overdrive and you're
workaholic and you're never home and you're proud
that you've only slept one hour a night this
past week so you got more work done, that's the
negative part of it. But there is a core to that
that, again, I think, is part of our calling.
what God wants us to do is to provide for our
family and to engage in the world and to make
a difference. And that's the positive part of
work. And then there's nothing wrong with that.
Actually, that's commanded. If you're not doing
that, there's a problem with sloth. And then
the sloth part, again, we talked about taking
a vacation, taking a break, taking a sabbatical,
having a lazy day. aren't necessarily, you know,
bad things, but if that becomes your focus. No,
those are healthy when they come after a good
sense of work. Yes. Right. Yeah. I mean, that
is the balance you want. That's what I'm saying.
Exactly. Yeah. So we've talked about sort of
what sloth is, all of these problems with it.
I want us to end by just talking about, you know,
how do we overcome sloth? What does that look
like in our lives? And the first thing that comes
to mind for me, so you were talking about, you
know, when you were in a season of slots, just
wanting to check out and like not do any of the
things. And I think about, for me, like showing
up to church, showing up to prayer, to read my
Bible, whatever it is, showing up for my family,
I think even if it just feels like I'm going
through the motions, the act of showing up is
super important. Yes. So that's where I would
start. What would you folks say? I think that
is a good start. And I think Rob covered that
in the sermon as well, just saying, keep praying,
keep reading your Bible, keep coming to church,
keep being engaged in your community, keep doing
that stuff, be diligent, even if you don't feel
it, right? What's the phrase? Make it till you
make it. There we go. That was what I was hearing.
When you're going through those difficult times,
of course, that's a choice. I think in my experience,
I didn't have the strength. or the will to make
that choice to even to start, even to show up
again at places. And so I needed people who love
me and care for me and who were able to help
get me to the point where I could make that choice
to start going to life group again, my men's
life group again, to start going to church again,
that kind of stuff. What else? What are some
other things, some practices we can put into
place? Yeah, okay. Um, I think just thinking
of what motivates you, um, like just have some
goals because you might not even think about
them, but they're really important to have. Like,
I don't know if you know the acronym, like SMART,
like SMART goals. I forgot what it stands for,
but it's one of them is like specific and like
timely and yeah, I'm a lot of order but And also
just like Something for me is like I think of
the person I want to be and that person would
just be being that person So I just be that well,
it's not like that. Yeah, but I try to just Do
the things that our future self would have done.
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I would say faithfulness.
There's a calling for you to be who God has asked
you to be each day. Or in the place where you
are. And when I say faithfulness, I don't mean
not cheating on something. I just mean doing
those acts and work those tasks each day and
recognizing the value of them. And I think...
If you go through the motions without, because
you recognize the value of something, then it
can take you through the times when emotionally
you're not there. But if you're only going through
the motions without recognizing the value of
it, without sort of trusting God, then it can
get very much more like a performance culture.
So recognize where God has value in those simple
things that He's asking you to do. in your day
-to -day work. And that's hard enough, right?
And so, yeah, I would say that faithfulness and
renewing of that mind, right? That is required
to recognize the value and see when God says
this is valuable, you say it's valuable and do
it. And so that's where I would, that's enough
for me, I think, as a challenge for going out
of this reflection onslaught. Yeah. I would say
that the way to save your life is to give your
life. I think the personal cost and the tragedy
of sloth as one of the seven deadly sins is the
wasted potential of not becoming the person or
being the person that God has meant you to be.
And that we're meant to be in community, right?
And to be in relationship. and be a positive
and productive member of society. But when we
turn away from all that, we're keeping us for
ourselves. You know, that was kind of how it
was for me. And we're starving ourselves of our
lives, our life's potential. And the verse that
comes to mind is, let me look it up here. It's
Matthew 10, 39, where it says, whoever finds
their life will lose it. Right. So for me, you
know, if we're trying to hang on to our life,
disengaging and just doing our own thing. If
we're scrolling or trolling or doom scrolling,
or if we're binge watching, you know, whatever
it is for us, then, you know, we're trying to
keep our life for ourselves. We're ultimately,
we're going to lose it. Right? So whoever finds
their life will lose it. And whoever loses their
life for my sake will find it. And so what I
think Jesus is saying there is that is that if
we give our lives to him and to his service,
then we will find that we get our life back.
And that was my experience. So after that intervention,
and I started engaging back in my community,
with my family, in the world, just volunteering
again, I... I didn't have the same amount of
time to watch TV or to do my own thing, whichever
that was, but I didn't miss it. My life was so
much more fulfilling. I got that sense of making
a difference, of caring, of people and other
people were... you know, happy that I was around,
right? So it's not just how I felt, but it was,
you know, the fact that I showed up made other
people, made a difference in the lives of other
people. And so that really is that, you know,
Jesus, you know, bang on, well done, Jesus. You
know, the verse is great. It's just because it...
It attacks that sense of sloth, that sense of
a jealousy of our own time and wanting to be,
just do what we want and say, no, that's not
how you were meant to be. That's not how you
were created to be. You're created, you give
your life to me in service to me and you will
find you will have a life of fulfillment and
completeness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks Will.
Yeah, so that's been a lot to think about, a
lot to digest, for sure, but I think a really
hopeful note that we end on, you know, that there
is a way forward. There is faith, there is hope,
and yeah, that God can lead us in that path if
we just trust and listen for that, for sure.
Yeah, so thank you for tuning in to this week's
episode of Trinity Talks, and we'll see you again
next week.