WEBVTT 00:00:04.189 --> 00:00:07.009 Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode 00:00:07.009 --> 00:00:11.009 of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana. 00:00:11.369 --> 00:00:14.869 My name is Bill. And I'm Johanna. And this week, 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:21.929 we are continuing to talk about sin. Yes. But 00:00:21.929 --> 00:00:24.530 we're talking about a very specific sin this 00:00:24.530 --> 00:00:28.269 morning, and that is the sin of sloth, which 00:00:28.269 --> 00:00:31.170 is not something that we talk about very much 00:00:31.170 --> 00:00:34.119 at all. And maybe if you're listening you're 00:00:34.119 --> 00:00:36.920 like sloth. What even is that? Is that a sin? 00:00:37.539 --> 00:00:39.479 Yeah, so hopefully we can help unpack some of 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:42.299 that for you But first I want to start since 00:00:42.299 --> 00:00:44.619 we don't talk about this word very often when 00:00:44.619 --> 00:00:46.899 I say the word sloth What is the first thing 00:00:46.899 --> 00:00:50.320 that comes to mind Johanna? Animal animal, okay. 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:53.890 Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, okay bill What's the first 00:00:53.890 --> 00:00:56.009 thing that comes to mind? Well, in our church 00:00:56.009 --> 00:01:00.170 context, I know the old joke is, I know the answer 00:01:00.170 --> 00:01:05.129 is supposed to be Jesus. Right. But I'm just 00:01:05.129 --> 00:01:07.969 thinking of when I hear the word sloth, I think 00:01:07.969 --> 00:01:11.530 of lack of caring and indifference. OK. OK. And 00:01:11.530 --> 00:01:13.569 what about for you? Yeah, I would say inertia. 00:01:13.790 --> 00:01:17.709 OK. Right. OK. So funny story. When I think of 00:01:17.709 --> 00:01:21.239 sloth, what comes to mind for me is a slug. Because 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:24.599 I know okay, so when I was preparing for this 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:28.920 podcast I wrote on the outline sloth not the 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:33.719 bug Because for whatever reason I assumed that 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:37.019 the slug was called a sloth, but it's not sloth 00:01:37.019 --> 00:01:40.359 is the animal anyway So I got all confused all 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:42.739 that to say we're not talking about slugs. We're 00:01:42.739 --> 00:01:45.480 not talking about creatures in the forest We're 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:49.680 talking about sloth. Yes So what? What is that? 00:01:49.700 --> 00:01:51.939 When we talk about sloth in a Christian context, 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:54.319 in the context of sin, how would you sort of 00:01:54.319 --> 00:02:01.000 describe it? Me? Well, I said inertia. That sense 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:05.879 of just not wanting to do what you need to do. 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:10.780 That's what I would say. You're just stuck. Yeah. 00:02:10.939 --> 00:02:13.849 Anything you would add to that, Bill? Well, I 00:02:13.849 --> 00:02:20.650 think sloth is apathy, it's indifference. I think 00:02:20.650 --> 00:02:30.409 one definition was a culpable lack of in effort, 00:02:31.770 --> 00:02:37.370 disregard of your obligations to family, to work, 00:02:37.770 --> 00:02:40.789 to church, to your own life, your own spiritual 00:02:40.789 --> 00:02:45.349 life. Culpable is the big word there. Yeah. You 00:02:45.349 --> 00:02:47.490 know what you're supposed to be doing, but you're 00:02:47.490 --> 00:02:49.810 definitely not doing it. And you're responsible 00:02:49.810 --> 00:02:52.069 for the fact that you're not doing it. Right. 00:02:52.229 --> 00:02:55.449 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What about for you? Yeah. How 00:02:55.449 --> 00:02:57.650 would, how would you sort of think about that 00:02:57.650 --> 00:03:02.610 word? I guess like for me, I would think of like 00:03:02.610 --> 00:03:05.090 waiting too long. Like, you know what you're 00:03:05.090 --> 00:03:06.729 called to do. You know what you're supposed to 00:03:06.729 --> 00:03:09.969 do, but you're thinking. XYZ like I'm just gonna 00:03:09.969 --> 00:03:12.129 wait until this happens or until that or until 00:03:12.129 --> 00:03:15.650 I feel ready Just that like laying and wait and 00:03:15.650 --> 00:03:19.150 not doing anything, right? Yeah. Yeah, I mean 00:03:19.150 --> 00:03:23.479 it's I feel like it's this complex kind of a 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:26.300 thing, but it is, yeah, I think we've helped 00:03:26.300 --> 00:03:28.639 sort of drill it down and it's very basic. It's 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:30.719 not doing the things that you know you're supposed 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:32.960 to be doing and you're not doing them. Yeah, 00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:34.900 you are culpable in that you are responsible 00:03:34.900 --> 00:03:37.319 for that somehow, which then leads into this 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.560 helpful distinction of like what is not sloth, 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:43.680 right? Because we sometimes think of it as, you 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:46.199 know, it's just laziness. It's just choosing 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:49.120 not to do the right thing or it's it's tiredness, 00:03:49.419 --> 00:03:52.650 right? But I think those things are not quite 00:03:52.650 --> 00:03:57.330 sloth. Is that fair to say? Right. I would say 00:03:57.330 --> 00:04:02.469 laziness can be a component of sloth, but sloth 00:04:02.469 --> 00:04:10.169 is so much more. Also, we talked about taking 00:04:10.169 --> 00:04:12.689 a break. I think some people, and Rob joked about 00:04:12.689 --> 00:04:15.509 this in a sermon, saying that going on vacation 00:04:15.509 --> 00:04:19.910 is an example of sloth. I would say, no, that's 00:04:19.910 --> 00:04:23.959 not either. there's very good reasons for us 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:26.939 to take vacations, to even take a sabbatical, 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:29.620 right? The Bible talks about taking a sabbatical, 00:04:29.699 --> 00:04:33.560 taking time away from your regular work to recharge 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:36.939 emotionally, physically, spiritual. I mean, we 00:04:36.939 --> 00:04:40.379 are told to do that, so obviously that's not 00:04:40.379 --> 00:04:42.240 wrong. Yeah, and Jesus did that. Like, He has, 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:44.600 like, lit out away from all the crowds and all 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:47.819 the work so often, right, to get that rest. And 00:04:47.819 --> 00:04:51.509 so you do know that those breaks are very much 00:04:51.509 --> 00:04:54.050 part of who we are as humans. We need them. We 00:04:54.050 --> 00:04:58.750 are creatures. And so to that extent, taking 00:04:58.750 --> 00:05:01.509 those breaks is so important to recognizing your 00:05:01.509 --> 00:05:06.470 limits. So it's not rest. It's not taking a break. 00:05:07.089 --> 00:05:11.329 Rest is incorporated into who we are as human 00:05:11.329 --> 00:05:14.610 beings. There's definitely a difference between 00:05:14.610 --> 00:05:17.329 needing rest and a break and not wanting to do 00:05:17.329 --> 00:05:21.089 anything all of the time. Yeah, and I think even 00:05:21.089 --> 00:05:23.370 one of the distinctions I think we need to make 00:05:23.370 --> 00:05:25.410 too is, even not wanting to do something all 00:05:25.410 --> 00:05:29.389 the time, it really depends on your mental and 00:05:29.389 --> 00:05:31.990 emotional and physical state. Because I would 00:05:31.990 --> 00:05:34.189 not want to say, like Rob even said in his sermon, 00:05:34.449 --> 00:05:37.230 sloth is not the same as depression, for example. 00:05:39.870 --> 00:05:41.790 There's something about those who are living 00:05:41.790 --> 00:05:43.769 with mental illness or those who are living with 00:05:43.769 --> 00:05:47.870 chronic physical illness. That is not sloth. 00:05:47.980 --> 00:05:51.339 That is a separate category of things that maybe 00:05:51.339 --> 00:05:55.800 sometimes has the same consequences in the world. 00:05:55.899 --> 00:05:58.339 Maybe it means you're not doing things, just 00:05:58.339 --> 00:06:01.220 like sloth means you're not doing things. But 00:06:01.220 --> 00:06:03.860 I would not put mental and physical illness in 00:06:03.860 --> 00:06:06.540 the realm of sin. Yeah, I think you're right. 00:06:08.050 --> 00:06:11.129 Depression might be a component of sloth and 00:06:11.129 --> 00:06:15.769 being in a state of slothiness might cause you 00:06:15.769 --> 00:06:18.990 to become depressed as a symptom, but I think 00:06:18.990 --> 00:06:22.689 they're completely separate. I agree. Yeah. And 00:06:22.689 --> 00:06:25.269 one of the things that you also mentioned to 00:06:25.269 --> 00:06:27.269 me earlier this week, Johanna, was that, you 00:06:27.269 --> 00:06:29.629 know, it's not the same as burnout, right? Yeah. 00:06:29.850 --> 00:06:31.810 Yeah. So like, how would you sort of distinguish 00:06:31.810 --> 00:06:36.470 those things? Well, To get burnt out, you have 00:06:36.470 --> 00:06:39.949 to not be slothful in the first place. You have 00:06:39.949 --> 00:06:43.509 to be doing a whole bunch of work and not prioritizing 00:06:43.509 --> 00:06:46.430 rest and that work -life balance to burn out 00:06:46.430 --> 00:06:51.610 because you've overworked yourself. In my head, 00:06:51.790 --> 00:06:54.050 whenever I feel burnt out, I'm like, oh my gosh, 00:06:54.110 --> 00:06:55.709 I'm being so lazy, I should be doing this and 00:06:55.709 --> 00:06:58.149 this and that. But that mindset is why I'm burnt 00:06:58.149 --> 00:07:01.149 out in the first place. And so it's not helping 00:07:01.149 --> 00:07:04.399 me be... productive anyway. So yeah, it is different. 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.740 Yeah, yeah, for sure. I just wanted to also say 00:07:07.740 --> 00:07:10.379 that one of the interesting things that can happen 00:07:10.379 --> 00:07:16.480 in burnout is a reflection that as much as we 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:19.839 have been exceedingly busy, if that busyness 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:23.199 came out of a lot of things we should not necessarily 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:27.939 have put our energies to. Sure. You know, then 00:07:27.939 --> 00:07:31.040 there's an underlying slot to the busyness more 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:33.279 than the burnout. There's an underlying sense 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:36.300 of lack of reflection, lack of prioritization, 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:39.839 lack of putting the effort where it needed to 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:43.939 and saying no to a lot of other busy things that, 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.079 you know, as you said, can actually be quite 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:50.560 detrimental to us. So it's an interesting thing. 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:52.339 It's not the burnout that's a slot. Actually, 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:55.069 the slot might have happened. in the areas of 00:07:55.069 --> 00:07:58.009 our busyness, right? And that's sort of what 00:07:58.009 --> 00:08:00.850 can be quite interesting to think of, when you 00:08:00.850 --> 00:08:03.910 think of Sloth as that, I don't know, lack of 00:08:03.910 --> 00:08:07.170 balance in there, that inability to reflect on 00:08:07.170 --> 00:08:11.569 what needed our attention and what didn't, or 00:08:11.569 --> 00:08:13.689 what needed our energy and effort and what didn't. 00:08:14.110 --> 00:08:17.149 Yeah. Yeah, so what you're bringing in then is 00:08:17.149 --> 00:08:19.810 that, like, Sloth isn't just doing nothing. Sometimes 00:08:19.810 --> 00:08:24.040 we are doing things. and being slothful in the 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:26.879 doing of things, which seems kind of contradictory. 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:33.019 What helps us then distinguish is this sloth 00:08:33.019 --> 00:08:38.279 or is it not? In the sermon, Rob talked about 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:39.759 a couple of different examples of that. He talked 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:44.740 about entertainment that doesn't refresh. I thought 00:08:44.740 --> 00:08:47.730 that was an interesting distinction. I mean, 00:08:47.789 --> 00:08:50.970 we like to be entertained and it is a good way 00:08:50.970 --> 00:08:55.529 to get away and to have some enjoyment, right? 00:08:55.590 --> 00:09:01.070 But I mean, if it's just constant strolling on 00:09:01.070 --> 00:09:04.169 our social media feeds or if it's binge watching 00:09:04.169 --> 00:09:10.389 show after show, then we lose the benefit of 00:09:10.389 --> 00:09:12.990 that action. Right. Because it's too much. Yep. 00:09:13.789 --> 00:09:16.730 And the, you know, if we, if we strolled, sorry, 00:09:16.929 --> 00:09:19.769 scrolled, if we scrolled a little bit as part 00:09:19.769 --> 00:09:21.950 of our day, you know, then that would be a fun 00:09:21.950 --> 00:09:23.669 and entertaining distraction. And then we go 00:09:23.669 --> 00:09:25.450 back to, you know, what we're supposed to do 00:09:25.450 --> 00:09:28.129 or same thing with watching TV or going to a 00:09:28.129 --> 00:09:34.220 movie. It's not bad. But if that becomes... a 00:09:34.220 --> 00:09:36.440 controlling factor of our life. If that's how 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:40.340 we spend so much of our time, then instead of 00:09:40.340 --> 00:09:44.179 refreshing it, it itself becomes a drain. So 00:09:44.179 --> 00:09:46.059 not only are you trying to escape from whatever 00:09:46.059 --> 00:09:49.519 it is that's draining you, but you become involved 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:53.740 and active in something that drains you further. 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:56.259 And then that's where the whole kind of sense 00:09:56.259 --> 00:10:00.629 of... sloth of lack of energy, lack of effort, 00:10:00.730 --> 00:10:05.269 lack of will, and it really kind of comes into 00:10:05.269 --> 00:10:09.230 play, right? For me, the scrolling is the worst 00:10:09.230 --> 00:10:11.830 thing, I think, because... Okay, there's so many 00:10:11.830 --> 00:10:14.529 ways to get entertained, right? But the scrolling 00:10:14.529 --> 00:10:17.529 is just like very instant gratification and you 00:10:17.529 --> 00:10:20.210 just keep doing it and you keep seeing cool stuff 00:10:20.210 --> 00:10:22.929 and like you can't stop and then it's like three 00:10:22.929 --> 00:10:25.690 hours later and your Bible is still open, but 00:10:25.690 --> 00:10:27.929 you haven't read a single word. It's like, oh, 00:10:27.950 --> 00:10:31.330 okay. So you have to like lock in again. But 00:10:31.330 --> 00:10:34.710 I noticed that for me, like As opposed to scrolling 00:10:34.710 --> 00:10:37.409 if I just even watch a movie just like short 00:10:37.409 --> 00:10:40.269 form over like I mean long form over short form 00:10:40.269 --> 00:10:43.190 content kind of is different like you just feel 00:10:43.190 --> 00:10:46.049 different after sitting down and like expressly 00:10:46.049 --> 00:10:48.840 watching a movie versus just when you're scrolling, 00:10:49.019 --> 00:10:50.740 you're kind of thinking of a billion things at 00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:53.360 once versus just the plot of one film. Yeah. 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:56.100 Yeah. And I think like you said, you know, you're 00:10:56.100 --> 00:10:57.779 scrolling and you see all these cool things and 00:10:57.779 --> 00:10:59.279 there's instant gratification. That definitely 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:02.240 happens sometimes. But my world is more I'm scrolling 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:05.639 and like doom scrolling. Yes. I'm scrolling and 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:09.299 like, wow, another crisis in this place. Oh, 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:12.120 that peace treaty didn't hold up. We're like, 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:15.220 oh, yeah. Right. And so like I think for me. 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:18.159 It's like, yes, the scrolling itself is an act 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.279 of sloth, but it actually feeds a deeper sense 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:26.639 of sloth because if sloth is thinking, OK, nothing 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:29.379 matters and this like temptation to give in to 00:11:29.379 --> 00:11:31.879 despair, then like doom scrolling feeds that 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:35.080 hard. Yes. But it's also interesting because. 00:11:35.809 --> 00:11:38.610 it feeds it without you recognizing that it's 00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:40.889 doing that, right? You feel like you are engaged. 00:11:41.090 --> 00:11:43.490 And that's the worst part about it. Because I 00:11:43.490 --> 00:11:46.210 mean, that moment at the beginning when, sorry, 00:11:46.350 --> 00:11:48.950 no, I am referring to the sermon, but you know, 00:11:48.990 --> 00:11:54.259 when we talk about CS Lewis's quote, but never 00:11:54.259 --> 00:11:57.200 purposeful opinions that lead to no action. Talk 00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.840 about change, but never make it. Yeah. I mean, 00:11:59.980 --> 00:12:02.980 scrolling ends up feeding that sense that we 00:12:02.980 --> 00:12:05.440 are engaged in what is happening. Yeah. Yeah. 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:09.100 Right. Why are we very good citizens by knowing 00:12:09.100 --> 00:12:12.519 what is happening in the world, right? By spending 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:16.580 seven hours reading and reading and reading and 00:12:16.580 --> 00:12:20.659 scrolling without actually doing the important 00:12:20.659 --> 00:12:24.559 acts, simple, humble acts of love that actually 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.179 do matter spiritually and in our relationships 00:12:28.179 --> 00:12:31.019 with our families, with our friends. And so that's 00:12:31.019 --> 00:12:32.940 where the danger, I think, of sloth comes. And 00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:35.919 I think it's one of the most potent sins in our 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.220 world today, precisely because we are so bombarded 00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:44.230 with ways to... fool ourselves that we are engaged. 00:12:45.129 --> 00:12:47.429 I think that one of the things that I wanted 00:12:47.429 --> 00:12:49.710 to bring up and I think that kind of goes into 00:12:49.710 --> 00:12:55.009 that is the insidious nature of sloth. And it's 00:12:55.009 --> 00:12:57.190 not something you don't wake up one morning and 00:12:57.190 --> 00:12:59.269 you don't care and you're indifferent and you're 00:12:59.269 --> 00:13:02.590 apathetic. It happens in very small increments. 00:13:03.049 --> 00:13:05.289 It's like what your teacher was saying the very 00:13:05.289 --> 00:13:07.330 first week you talked about. You don't start 00:13:07.330 --> 00:13:08.870 with the big sins, you start with the little 00:13:08.870 --> 00:13:11.129 sins. You tell a lie and then you cheat on a 00:13:11.129 --> 00:13:15.269 test. And then once that becomes normalized, 00:13:15.570 --> 00:13:18.230 that small sin becomes normalized in your life, 00:13:18.289 --> 00:13:21.169 you're ready to take the next step. But I think 00:13:21.169 --> 00:13:26.909 slothiness approaches us in the same way. It's 00:13:26.909 --> 00:13:29.149 almost like the animal. It doesn't move more 00:13:29.149 --> 00:13:33.470 than 32 meters in a day. It just moves very slowly. 00:13:37.789 --> 00:13:41.909 I guess the insidiousness of sloth is that it 00:13:41.909 --> 00:13:44.629 comes at you in that way, where you don't realize 00:13:44.629 --> 00:13:49.889 it's happening. For me, personally, because I 00:13:49.889 --> 00:13:54.009 really identify, of the seven deadly sins, this 00:13:54.009 --> 00:13:57.370 one might be my favorite. I just have such a 00:13:57.370 --> 00:14:01.070 personal experience of this in my life, of going 00:14:01.070 --> 00:14:05.909 through what was likely years of slothfulness. 00:14:07.699 --> 00:14:10.980 of apathy and indifference and not caring. And, 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:13.360 and, and for me it was, again, it wasn't just 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.580 an overnight thing. It was something that, that 00:14:15.580 --> 00:14:18.740 came on me over time and just, and in the late, 00:14:19.059 --> 00:14:20.639 like you were saying, in the busy -ness of our 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:23.860 work, right? I just hearing this small voice 00:14:23.860 --> 00:14:26.100 in my head saying, Bill, you're not making a 00:14:26.100 --> 00:14:29.440 difference. Right. And, and, or, you know, why, 00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:32.600 why do you care? And, and it was, and it was 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:37.629 that kind of, I mean, it's like demonic influence 00:14:37.629 --> 00:14:42.889 over my work and over my involvement with my 00:14:42.889 --> 00:14:46.429 family and friends that just caused me over time 00:14:46.429 --> 00:14:51.710 to just... My core to me is wanting to make a 00:14:51.710 --> 00:14:55.529 difference. And so to attack on, you're not making 00:14:55.529 --> 00:14:58.179 a difference. Why are you... putting in all that 00:14:58.179 --> 00:15:01.379 effort. Right. And it's nothing's changing. You 00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:04.179 know, people aren't changing. And the and so 00:15:04.179 --> 00:15:06.799 all of a sudden you just start doing less and 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:09.019 less and you and you start thinking, well, yeah, 00:15:09.019 --> 00:15:12.240 I'm going to watch that show, you know, all nine 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:16.100 seasons of the instead of doing, you know, you 00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:18.159 know, something else because it doesn't really 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.980 matter anyway. Like, you know, you know, so I 00:15:20.980 --> 00:15:23.419 stopped showing up and I stopped caring. And 00:15:23.419 --> 00:15:28.289 it just and it was. And it just fed on itself 00:15:28.289 --> 00:15:30.950 at that point. That's really corrosive at the 00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:36.090 time. It spiraled downward. And then you don't 00:15:36.090 --> 00:15:38.490 care. And then you aren't making a difference. 00:15:39.110 --> 00:15:41.009 You're not showing up. You're not being present. 00:15:41.169 --> 00:15:45.870 You're not engaging in the world. You're so jealous. 00:15:46.299 --> 00:15:49.919 of that time for you, which may have been at 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.320 the beginning something that could have been, 00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:55.120 maybe was good to take time away, like a Sabbath, 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:58.320 like a vacation. But when that's all that it 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:00.399 becomes, where you're saying every day, like 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:03.840 for a while, I was still working full time, I 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:07.340 was doing the job, but I mean, I didn't do anything 00:16:07.340 --> 00:16:10.600 more. I put in the time and then I couldn't wait 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:13.639 to go home and just do whatever I wanted to do. 00:16:14.019 --> 00:16:18.139 It was just about me. And so I disengaged from 00:16:18.139 --> 00:16:20.559 community. I disengaged from family. I disengaged 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:22.779 from friends. I stopped going to church. There 00:16:22.779 --> 00:16:26.879 was a time five, 10 years ago where I was barely 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:29.679 at church for a number of years. And it only 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:33.919 took an intervention of friends, close dear friends. 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:36.200 And many of them are in my Thursday morning life 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:40.039 group that said, Bill, enough is enough. You 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:41.779 know, that's amazing. We got to deal with this. 00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:47.679 And I'm like, no. But, you know, they helped 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:52.440 me to confront it and to get past it. Yeah, yeah, 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:58.559 for sure. So when we think about our work -life 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.399 balance, as you were sort of just talking about, 00:17:00.460 --> 00:17:02.220 you know, we can go to work and do the things 00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:06.720 and we have a kind of hustle culture, right? 00:17:06.740 --> 00:17:09.819 A sense of like really valuing productivity and 00:17:09.819 --> 00:17:13.650 doing things out in the world. So how does sloth 00:17:13.650 --> 00:17:17.470 fit into that? If we are so busy doing all of 00:17:17.470 --> 00:17:20.549 these things, right? What does sloth look like 00:17:20.549 --> 00:17:27.170 in hustle culture? I think sloth prevents us. 00:17:27.329 --> 00:17:29.670 Hustle culture tells us that if we take time 00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:35.490 to be still, to reflect, to not do active things, 00:17:36.910 --> 00:17:39.269 then that is laziness. That you're not being 00:17:39.269 --> 00:17:41.289 all you can be, you're not doing all you can 00:17:41.289 --> 00:17:44.900 do. Sure. And that I think is completely antithetical 00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:47.480 to God's sort of be still and know that I am 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:50.740 God. Like that it makes stillness and reflection 00:17:50.740 --> 00:17:55.019 an enemy of achievement and fulfillment. Right. 00:17:56.099 --> 00:17:59.400 So one of the things I think that Hasaltology 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:01.700 attempts us to do then is to do all the things 00:18:01.700 --> 00:18:03.519 we do, you know, to keep ourselves in the know. 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:05.680 We have our work and now we're going to also 00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:10.170 figure out, like spend some time, you know. getting 00:18:10.170 --> 00:18:11.990 entertained, being up with the local culture, 00:18:12.109 --> 00:18:15.009 being able to speak about X, Y, Z. It's going 00:18:15.009 --> 00:18:18.690 to learn a new language on the side. It never 00:18:18.690 --> 00:18:23.470 lets us off, right? But part of what Slot does 00:18:23.470 --> 00:18:26.289 then is makes us stop. And I think here's where 00:18:26.289 --> 00:18:28.190 the spiritual mention of Slot comes in, right? 00:18:28.250 --> 00:18:33.329 It makes us stop caring about how important it 00:18:33.329 --> 00:18:41.109 is to be slower. To be present in simple, small, 00:18:42.329 --> 00:18:46.150 everyday jobs in our families with our friends. 00:18:49.190 --> 00:18:51.609 We just sort of let those go. We stop caring 00:18:51.609 --> 00:18:55.529 in areas, not caring completely, but caring in 00:18:55.529 --> 00:18:58.309 certain important, crucial areas of our lives 00:18:58.309 --> 00:19:00.710 where God tends to show up. Those are the ones 00:19:00.710 --> 00:19:03.490 we tend to give up. So household culture can 00:19:03.490 --> 00:19:08.869 be a really... It's a real temptation. Ask yourself 00:19:08.869 --> 00:19:10.930 what you're giving up when it comes to your spiritual 00:19:10.930 --> 00:19:14.470 walk with God and your engagement with your family 00:19:14.470 --> 00:19:18.130 and community while you are so busy improving 00:19:18.130 --> 00:19:21.849 yourself in 50 different ways. And you'll probably 00:19:21.849 --> 00:19:25.230 begin to recognize the spaces where sloth is 00:19:25.230 --> 00:19:32.549 a temptation. I feel like hostile culture is 00:19:32.549 --> 00:19:37.680 really toxic because it really glorifies a really 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:42.359 poor imbalance. You'll be working around the 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:44.319 clock on something. It'll be like, wow, they're 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:46.319 such a go -getter. They're after their goals 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:49.079 and everything. Or you'll pull all -nighters 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:51.579 and it'll be seen as like, wow, so dedicated, 00:19:51.740 --> 00:19:54.559 so motivated. But that's really bad for you. 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:58.170 And your brain needs to rest. I don't know. I 00:19:58.170 --> 00:20:00.890 just know some people will be like, oh my gosh, 00:20:00.970 --> 00:20:02.849 I only got three hours of sleep. And they'll 00:20:02.849 --> 00:20:06.490 go comparing themselves to other people who had 00:20:06.490 --> 00:20:09.869 maybe one hour of sleep. It's like, you can't 00:20:09.869 --> 00:20:12.970 consistently function this way. So in a way, 00:20:13.130 --> 00:20:16.490 you're kind of promoting laziness. Well, you're 00:20:16.490 --> 00:20:18.730 performing like you're performing a lot. Yeah, 00:20:18.769 --> 00:20:21.250 but up until like what point so there's gonna 00:20:21.250 --> 00:20:23.269 be a crash Yeah, you crash and then you're gonna 00:20:23.269 --> 00:20:25.690 be like lazy quote -unquote when really you just 00:20:25.690 --> 00:20:28.869 need rest and then you conflate like laziness 00:20:28.869 --> 00:20:31.250 for sloth and then you feel guilty because you're 00:20:31.250 --> 00:20:35.009 sitting on top of feeling awful, so So what I'm 00:20:35.009 --> 00:20:37.990 what I'm hearing from both of you is is that? 00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:42.470 hyperculture is bad the sloth is bad and the 00:20:42.470 --> 00:20:45.529 best way is to find the balance in the middle. 00:20:46.150 --> 00:20:48.410 I would say the sloth is somewhere underlying 00:20:48.410 --> 00:20:51.930 that hyperculture very often. I think that's 00:20:51.930 --> 00:20:54.730 sort of part of what happens. I mean, not always, 00:20:54.890 --> 00:20:58.049 right? I do want to distinguish between a genuine 00:20:58.049 --> 00:21:00.569 sense that you want to be engaged and excellent 00:21:00.569 --> 00:21:03.029 at what you work, you find value in it. That's 00:21:03.029 --> 00:21:06.509 different from the sort of always do something, 00:21:06.809 --> 00:21:10.599 be always on. um culture which is yeah somewhat 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:12.920 different yeah it's it's the motivation it's 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:14.599 a motivation yeah it's always that it always 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:16.720 goes back to like the things we can't quite see 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:20.460 yes yeah yeah i think what what i'm hearing is 00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:24.980 is that the um uh that there's a good part to 00:21:24.980 --> 00:21:30.089 uh the bad thing The desire to be productive 00:21:30.089 --> 00:21:33.069 and to make a difference and to advance your 00:21:33.069 --> 00:21:35.730 work, whatever sector you're in, that's a positive 00:21:35.730 --> 00:21:38.529 thing. But if you go into overdrive and you're 00:21:38.529 --> 00:21:42.569 workaholic and you're never home and you're proud 00:21:42.569 --> 00:21:45.410 that you've only slept one hour a night this 00:21:45.410 --> 00:21:48.569 past week so you got more work done, that's the 00:21:48.569 --> 00:21:52.009 negative part of it. But there is a core to that 00:21:52.009 --> 00:21:54.170 that, again, I think, is part of our calling. 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:59.019 what God wants us to do is to provide for our 00:21:59.019 --> 00:22:02.279 family and to engage in the world and to make 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:05.660 a difference. And that's the positive part of 00:22:05.660 --> 00:22:08.619 work. And then there's nothing wrong with that. 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:11.599 Actually, that's commanded. If you're not doing 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.299 that, there's a problem with sloth. And then 00:22:14.299 --> 00:22:17.019 the sloth part, again, we talked about taking 00:22:17.019 --> 00:22:19.599 a vacation, taking a break, taking a sabbatical, 00:22:20.619 --> 00:22:26.349 having a lazy day. aren't necessarily, you know, 00:22:26.450 --> 00:22:29.250 bad things, but if that becomes your focus. No, 00:22:29.250 --> 00:22:31.930 those are healthy when they come after a good 00:22:31.930 --> 00:22:34.329 sense of work. Yes. Right. Yeah. I mean, that 00:22:34.329 --> 00:22:36.029 is the balance you want. That's what I'm saying. 00:22:36.150 --> 00:22:40.130 Exactly. Yeah. So we've talked about sort of 00:22:40.130 --> 00:22:42.490 what sloth is, all of these problems with it. 00:22:42.829 --> 00:22:44.910 I want us to end by just talking about, you know, 00:22:45.029 --> 00:22:47.789 how do we overcome sloth? What does that look 00:22:47.789 --> 00:22:50.869 like in our lives? And the first thing that comes 00:22:50.869 --> 00:22:52.849 to mind for me, so you were talking about, you 00:22:52.849 --> 00:22:54.650 know, when you were in a season of slots, just 00:22:54.650 --> 00:22:56.869 wanting to check out and like not do any of the 00:22:56.869 --> 00:23:00.670 things. And I think about, for me, like showing 00:23:00.670 --> 00:23:04.289 up to church, showing up to prayer, to read my 00:23:04.289 --> 00:23:07.109 Bible, whatever it is, showing up for my family, 00:23:07.869 --> 00:23:10.549 I think even if it just feels like I'm going 00:23:10.549 --> 00:23:13.210 through the motions, the act of showing up is 00:23:13.210 --> 00:23:16.369 super important. Yes. So that's where I would 00:23:16.369 --> 00:23:18.410 start. What would you folks say? I think that 00:23:18.410 --> 00:23:21.269 is a good start. And I think Rob covered that 00:23:21.269 --> 00:23:24.890 in the sermon as well, just saying, keep praying, 00:23:25.109 --> 00:23:27.470 keep reading your Bible, keep coming to church, 00:23:28.490 --> 00:23:31.750 keep being engaged in your community, keep doing 00:23:31.750 --> 00:23:34.650 that stuff, be diligent, even if you don't feel 00:23:34.650 --> 00:23:38.859 it, right? What's the phrase? Make it till you 00:23:38.859 --> 00:23:42.960 make it. There we go. That was what I was hearing. 00:23:43.579 --> 00:23:46.240 When you're going through those difficult times, 00:23:47.660 --> 00:23:53.920 of course, that's a choice. I think in my experience, 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.910 I didn't have the strength. or the will to make 00:23:59.910 --> 00:24:02.630 that choice to even to start, even to show up 00:24:02.630 --> 00:24:09.009 again at places. And so I needed people who love 00:24:09.009 --> 00:24:13.410 me and care for me and who were able to help 00:24:13.410 --> 00:24:15.569 get me to the point where I could make that choice 00:24:15.569 --> 00:24:18.089 to start going to life group again, my men's 00:24:18.089 --> 00:24:20.369 life group again, to start going to church again, 00:24:20.769 --> 00:24:23.430 that kind of stuff. What else? What are some 00:24:23.430 --> 00:24:25.490 other things, some practices we can put into 00:24:25.490 --> 00:24:28.569 place? Yeah, okay. Um, I think just thinking 00:24:28.569 --> 00:24:32.069 of what motivates you, um, like just have some 00:24:32.069 --> 00:24:34.990 goals because you might not even think about 00:24:34.990 --> 00:24:36.670 them, but they're really important to have. Like, 00:24:36.750 --> 00:24:39.009 I don't know if you know the acronym, like SMART, 00:24:39.089 --> 00:24:41.789 like SMART goals. I forgot what it stands for, 00:24:41.950 --> 00:24:44.490 but it's one of them is like specific and like 00:24:44.490 --> 00:24:51.769 timely and yeah, I'm a lot of order but And also 00:24:51.769 --> 00:24:55.230 just like Something for me is like I think of 00:24:55.230 --> 00:24:58.970 the person I want to be and that person would 00:24:58.970 --> 00:25:02.329 just be being that person So I just be that well, 00:25:02.329 --> 00:25:05.690 it's not like that. Yeah, but I try to just Do 00:25:05.690 --> 00:25:08.150 the things that our future self would have done. 00:25:08.430 --> 00:25:12.029 Yeah, for sure, for sure. I would say faithfulness. 00:25:12.990 --> 00:25:16.450 There's a calling for you to be who God has asked 00:25:16.450 --> 00:25:20.150 you to be each day. Or in the place where you 00:25:20.150 --> 00:25:22.349 are. And when I say faithfulness, I don't mean 00:25:22.349 --> 00:25:26.309 not cheating on something. I just mean doing 00:25:26.309 --> 00:25:30.950 those acts and work those tasks each day and 00:25:30.950 --> 00:25:34.210 recognizing the value of them. And I think... 00:25:33.710 --> 00:25:36.670 If you go through the motions without, because 00:25:36.670 --> 00:25:38.730 you recognize the value of something, then it 00:25:38.730 --> 00:25:40.849 can take you through the times when emotionally 00:25:40.849 --> 00:25:42.650 you're not there. But if you're only going through 00:25:42.650 --> 00:25:45.309 the motions without recognizing the value of 00:25:45.309 --> 00:25:49.529 it, without sort of trusting God, then it can 00:25:49.529 --> 00:25:51.829 get very much more like a performance culture. 00:25:52.890 --> 00:25:57.369 So recognize where God has value in those simple 00:25:57.369 --> 00:26:00.170 things that He's asking you to do. in your day 00:26:00.170 --> 00:26:02.829 -to -day work. And that's hard enough, right? 00:26:03.769 --> 00:26:06.670 And so, yeah, I would say that faithfulness and 00:26:06.670 --> 00:26:10.789 renewing of that mind, right? That is required 00:26:10.789 --> 00:26:13.269 to recognize the value and see when God says 00:26:13.269 --> 00:26:16.450 this is valuable, you say it's valuable and do 00:26:16.450 --> 00:26:20.549 it. And so that's where I would, that's enough 00:26:20.549 --> 00:26:23.789 for me, I think, as a challenge for going out 00:26:23.789 --> 00:26:27.440 of this reflection onslaught. Yeah. I would say 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:31.039 that the way to save your life is to give your 00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:34.140 life. I think the personal cost and the tragedy 00:26:34.140 --> 00:26:38.339 of sloth as one of the seven deadly sins is the 00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:42.359 wasted potential of not becoming the person or 00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:45.680 being the person that God has meant you to be. 00:26:45.819 --> 00:26:48.400 And that we're meant to be in community, right? 00:26:48.500 --> 00:26:52.319 And to be in relationship. and be a positive 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:55.180 and productive member of society. But when we 00:26:55.180 --> 00:26:57.759 turn away from all that, we're keeping us for 00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:00.640 ourselves. You know, that was kind of how it 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:03.019 was for me. And we're starving ourselves of our 00:27:03.019 --> 00:27:07.920 lives, our life's potential. And the verse that 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.619 comes to mind is, let me look it up here. It's 00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:13.079 Matthew 10, 39, where it says, whoever finds 00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:16.660 their life will lose it. Right. So for me, you 00:27:16.660 --> 00:27:20.059 know, if we're trying to hang on to our life, 00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:22.680 disengaging and just doing our own thing. If 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:26.700 we're scrolling or trolling or doom scrolling, 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:29.119 or if we're binge watching, you know, whatever 00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:31.720 it is for us, then, you know, we're trying to 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:33.859 keep our life for ourselves. We're ultimately, 00:27:33.859 --> 00:27:36.579 we're going to lose it. Right? So whoever finds 00:27:36.579 --> 00:27:38.839 their life will lose it. And whoever loses their 00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:42.380 life for my sake will find it. And so what I 00:27:42.380 --> 00:27:44.779 think Jesus is saying there is that is that if 00:27:44.779 --> 00:27:47.660 we give our lives to him and to his service, 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:53.220 then we will find that we get our life back. 00:27:53.660 --> 00:27:56.420 And that was my experience. So after that intervention, 00:27:58.599 --> 00:28:03.799 and I started engaging back in my community, 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.440 with my family, in the world, just volunteering 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.809 again, I... I didn't have the same amount of 00:28:10.809 --> 00:28:14.490 time to watch TV or to do my own thing, whichever 00:28:14.490 --> 00:28:18.309 that was, but I didn't miss it. My life was so 00:28:18.309 --> 00:28:23.529 much more fulfilling. I got that sense of making 00:28:23.529 --> 00:28:29.890 a difference, of caring, of people and other 00:28:29.890 --> 00:28:35.160 people were... you know, happy that I was around, 00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:40.779 right? So it's not just how I felt, but it was, 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.700 you know, the fact that I showed up made other 00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:47.279 people, made a difference in the lives of other 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:51.759 people. And so that really is that, you know, 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:54.980 Jesus, you know, bang on, well done, Jesus. You 00:28:54.980 --> 00:28:58.420 know, the verse is great. It's just because it... 00:28:58.460 --> 00:29:02.380 It attacks that sense of sloth, that sense of 00:29:02.380 --> 00:29:04.980 a jealousy of our own time and wanting to be, 00:29:05.339 --> 00:29:08.859 just do what we want and say, no, that's not 00:29:08.859 --> 00:29:10.819 how you were meant to be. That's not how you 00:29:10.819 --> 00:29:14.359 were created to be. You're created, you give 00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:18.440 your life to me in service to me and you will 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:22.099 find you will have a life of fulfillment and 00:29:22.099 --> 00:29:25.579 completeness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks Will. 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:28.940 Yeah, so that's been a lot to think about, a 00:29:28.940 --> 00:29:32.759 lot to digest, for sure, but I think a really 00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.319 hopeful note that we end on, you know, that there 00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:40.359 is a way forward. There is faith, there is hope, 00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:43.660 and yeah, that God can lead us in that path if 00:29:43.660 --> 00:29:47.480 we just trust and listen for that, for sure. 00:29:48.099 --> 00:29:51.039 Yeah, so thank you for tuning in to this week's 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:53.339 episode of Trinity Talks, and we'll see you again 00:29:53.339 --> 00:29:53.940 next week.