Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana.
My name is Bill. And I'm Johanna. And we are
sitting down to talk this week about envy, which
is kind of a tricky thing to talk about, I think.
But hopefully we can have some really good conversations.
The first thing that I wanted us to sort of work
on and sort of clarify together is like what
is envy and is envy the same thing as jealousy
or is it a little bit different than that yeah
what what do we think yeah it can be used interchangeably
i think we very often do it yeah i think what
i think of is that jealousy has to do with what
you possess but you know jealousy can be used
in a different way sure than envy yeah he has
to do with other people's jealousy as new maybe
with what you have okay okay that's one way of
thinking other other thoughts i see them as pretty
much the same thing so it's very interchangeable
but um but um yeah i'd i'd uh i'd certainly be
interested in learning more about what the distinction
between the two are so johanna i did not know
that there was a distinction actually for me
let me clarify what i mean then it's it's you
can be jealous for your honor or somebody who
has been accused can be jealous for their innocence.
Like, there is a way of saying that, you know,
you're sort of protective. It's about protecting
something. Now it can be bad, you know, you're
sort of, this is mine, I don't share it sort
of thing. But you can also recognize that. when
you're like, God is jealous, they say, right?
Just and jealous God, right? He's jealous for
His own glory. Oh, okay. Yeah. Like others that
are not worthy of that worship. Yes. Right. I
see that as a different meaning of jealousy.
Yes, it's a slightly different meaning. As an
alternate meaning of jealousy as opposed to...
the meaning of jealousy, which is basically the
same as envy. I see what you mean there. So a
person could also be jealous for their own honor
or something, though what they're doing is protecting
it. So there is that sense of jealousy that's
not very used, I think, today. And that's not
necessarily a bad thing or a more positive use
of the word jealous or jealousy. Right. Yeah,
so then that actually helps to make sense of
like why we can talk about God is jealous. Yes.
Right? Because yeah, if jealousy, if we think
jealousy is the same thing as envy and envy is
a sin, then like God can't be jealous, right?
Because then we would be saying God is sinful.
But yeah, that helps make sense of it for sure.
Yeah, so humans and God can be jealous in a good
way. But as I said, that's not a very useful,
it's not a very common way of thinking of jealousy.
And most of the time we just think of being jealous
of somebody else, in which case it's almost the
same as envy. Right. So if we're talking about
the definition of envy, I think we heard it a
couple times in the service, and Justin said
it, is that very simply envy is wanting what
other people have. Right. Stuff we don't have,
we want what they have, and we're envious of
them and what they have. Yeah. Yeah, one of the
other things that I was reading about this week
and sort of thinking about this was there was
some people saying that like envy when we use
that word we're more focused on like the thing
that we are envious of whereas like jealousy
sometimes we're more talking about like the person
so like i don't know i am envious of bill's phone
for example like i really want the phone it's
a good phone it's a good phone yeah but if i
was saying i was jealous then it's more about
like oh my relationship with bill right then
i don't know does that feel true in the way that
we use those words. So you're still jealous of
the phone. You're still envious of the phone,
but the jealousy is on the person. Oh, yeah,
yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that's a good distinction,
too. That's helpful. I've never thought about
it that way. OK. Does it feel true? I guess so,
if I think about it now. But like for me, jealous
just kind of seems like a thing that you say,
like, oh, I'm so jealous or whatever. Like, it's
just. a normalized kind of word versus envious
is like, oh, that's a sin. That's how it feels
like for me. So like the word like, like saying
you're envious of someone sounds like you're
like plotting on them or something. Like, but
it's like jealous just kind of, you just kind
of throw that word around. Like if you're like
mildly wanting something is how I use it. Or
Tohanna would say, I'm so jelly. I would not
say that. Okay, well maybe some other young people
would. So, where does envy or jealousy sort of
come from? Why does it exist? Maybe a lack kind
of mindset. Like you feel like you're lacking
something so you want. That's how it works in
my head at least, like the gear is working that
way. It's not just lack. Like somebody can lack
food and genuinely be hungry, right? I think
it's that comparative. That sense that somebody
has something and there's a deficiency in you,
right? Like I think there's a sense that... Somebody
having it and you feeling like you should have
it. Yeah, like there's an enmity There's a little
bit of malice there, which is why I think we
make that distinction between envy being worse
than jealousy Right that you did So the difference
between need and want yeah stuff that we need
Yeah, you know for ourselves and for our family
and yes, and then there's things that we want
that are yeah You know, we don't necessarily
need them but we want them and I think that that
that kind of the the level then goes to more
towards you know being envious or being jealous
of others because you know they have those things
that we want and we want them for ourselves yeah
for sure the why for the want is kind of important
too because sometimes you just kind of want something
because it looks appealing and your friend has
it and so you want to have it and you want to
belong to the social group that has Bill's phone.
Bill's phone specifically, yes. But like you're
actually just fine with Kyla's phone and like
you have to examine why you want the thing. We
talked about this last week when we talked about
being built with a hole in our heart. It's a
God -shaped hole. And anything that we try to
fill that, whether it's my phone or anything
that we're envious of that other people might
have, we try to, you know, it comes from, like
you were saying, where does envy come from? It
comes from us desiring to fill that hole in our
hearts to make us complete. And we try to fill
it with all sorts of stuff, but ultimately it's
a God -shaped hole, and only God is going to
serve that purpose of completing us in the way
that he made us. But we try to fill that with
a nice vacation, or the latest model car that
our neighbor has that we want, and we get it.
And we might feel good for a little bit because,
you know, like we were talking, you know, last
week and this week is that, you know, when we
get the stuff that we desire, we tend to desire
the stuff that makes us feel good. So when we
get it, we feel good. Yeah. But it ultimately
doesn't fill that hole. Right. And only God will
fill that hole. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, Johanna,
you talked about, like, you know, wanting things
that your friends have. Yeah. And I think I wonder
if social media then feeds into envy more, because
I get to see more of what my friends have. I
know in my own life, for example now, I've been
out of high school for a number of years, but
still interact with some high school friends
or see them on social media, right? And there's
such a temptation in my life to be like, oh,
they're going on another. international vacation
or like oh they found their partner they're raising
a family and that's just like not where i'm at
in my life right there yeah right so like do
you feel like social media like feeds envy it
definitely can if you let it like i feel like
it's a you control what you see on social media
um so if it's like friends and stuff that you're
following like You can look at the post or you
could just not if you know that you're in a jealous
kind of mood. I don't know. But like, I mean,
there definitely is that pressure though, like
added if you're seeing it repeatedly on their
Instagram that they are like living a really
great life and you're not like, yeah, I would
be jealous. But I mean, I'm more jealous of like
experiences and stuff. But like, I think that's
kind of like a good jealous because it makes
me want to just go and have my own. So. It can
be a motivator sometimes to be jealous, I don't
know. Yeah, I think it can be a motivator. I
don't know what other folks feel like. I agree.
I think that... And here I'm trying to make distinctions
here between admiration or seeing something good
that you might like to experience and envy. And
so much of social media is the flip of envy,
which is boasting, which is based on so often...
you know, recognizing I have something good,
I'm gonna just spread it out. Now that can be
sharing with friends, but social media, there's
a weird sort of difference to sharing it publicly,
rather than like a heartfelt talk with a friend.
You know, that's very different. And so it has
a dynamic that veers into boasting precisely
at the point at which others... are invited to
envy. There's this broad dynamic in certain elements
of social media that it's inherent to the medium,
I think, very often. And so that's where I think
the temptation lies when it comes at social media.
It's people posting very often, very aware of
the sort of boasting about their experiences
or they're under the guise of sharing. for example,
right? Right. Because it's not personal. It's
it's in a way it's and so there's where I found
I've my social media. My movement away from social
media has helped me a lot because as much as
I'd love to hear about your vacation, it's nice
if we actually have a conversation. Yeah. And
whereas if all I'm seeing is your posts from
Bali, you know, it's. It's lovely that you have
that, but there's no sense in which there's a
sharing among friends. And so that's where I
find the medium becomes very inherently in a
space where envy and boasting sort of feed off
each other. It's interesting that we're talking
about these kind of international trips or trips
to the sun destinations, because I find over
the years that I really have to watch my social
media feed in January, February, and March because
I get all these posts of friends that are going
down south to all these really nice tropical
locations and I'm looking at their pictures and
I'm like... Out there shoveling your snow! I'm
trying to get my snowblower to work and then
I'm seeing them on the beach and having fun and
doing stuff and I try to be happy for them, but
I think that's where I... And I think it's all
of us, right? Because that sense of travel and
adventure. And we know it's a good experience.
And I think that's the thing about envy, very
often the things we want. Many of them can be
bad, sure. But many things that we want, if we're
envious, they can be good things that we might
not be. in the space or in the moment that we
can experience and so recognizing that it's good
and at the same time that it's not necessarily
for us where we are right now and being happy
or okay with that like that's the challenge right
and so yeah it's if you're sort of envious of
a family or if you're envious of people's experiences
and all They're not bad things, which is why
it's so easy to envy in those moments. I've never
envied somebody who's ultra rich or a hedge fund
manager. That's not me. I'm not even envious
of you. That's because it's not your heart's
desire. It's not my heart's desire at all. That's
where it comes from. I think the issue is when
you have values where you recognize these are
good things and you might like to have them.
but they're not where you are right now, to be
grateful in that moment for what you have, that
that's the struggle. Oh, I think that's bang
on. So there I think, yeah. Yeah, I think, I
guess just thinking about it then, like if it's
all about our values, Like you said, I can only
be envious of the things that I actually want.
And they're good things, which then makes me
think about what Justin was just saying in his
sermon about this idea of not hedging our bets.
If we're gonna trust God to give us something,
then we need to trust God to give us that thing.
Even if it's something I could get another way,
I guess. So social media sort of gives us this
possibility for envy. Do we think it also, like
are there ways that it can be a sort of antidote
to envy or does it just feed the negative? A
little bit. Okay. But it's like a guilty pleasure
is that I will look at people who have really
bad lives. and then I feel good about mine. I
mean, it's probably not the best motivator, but
it's my little thing that I do. So I think it
is Libby said if the antidote. to envy is gratitude,
then we need to build that into our lives. And
I think it's a discipline. I think it's something
that we need to train ourselves to do over years
and years of repetition. So one of the things
I do with my life group every week, and I don't
think they get annoyed at it, but it definitely
is repetitive. Every week, part of my prayer
request is for us to be grateful for what we
have and mindful of those who have less. And
sometimes I give examples of that. And that might
be after I shared that I'm currently not working
and don't have a lot of money to, you know, beyond
paying the bills to do kind of fun stuff. And
then I say, and then my prayer request is for
us to be grateful and be mindful of those who
have less, right? So it's all kind of relative
from wherever you are, but there's always gonna
be people who have more and there's always gonna
be people who have less. And just one, be grateful,
the antidote to envy, and then to be mindful
of those who are in need around us and to help
out as best we can. And so that as a discipline
is great, but then as an action, you know, I
would... Definitely encourage people to volunteer
in their community, you know to volunteer at
a food bank to volunteer at a shelter to volunteer
at I I'm part of the out of the cold program
in Georgetown and I volunteer once or twice a
week with the overnight program where we provide
a warm hot meal for dinner and then a warm safe
place for people who are unhoused to have a place
to to sleep and That and that's it. You know,
we're 8 p .m. To 8 a .m. And that's what we do
And as you participate in a program like that,
you become very aware of the people in your community
who have less and are in need. And I think that's
super humbling. Wherever you're at with your
life, if you're just building a career or you're
saving money for a house or whatever, you're
at a different place. You know be grateful for
where you are and be and and be aware of and
help out when you can for People that have less.
Yeah Yeah, I think yeah gratitude is definitely
one of those sort of antidotes for envy like
you were saying and and Yeah, the the piece you
were talking about about volunteering just reminds
me like I was just sort of trying to think through
like compassion as another sort of antidote for
envy and just like recognizing There are lots
of people who have things that I want, but there
are also lots of people who want the things that
I have. How can I extend compassion? That can
help. To be happy with where you are, that's
true. There's still, though, a problem with that
kind of comparative sense, I think. Like to feel
glad that you're not that person who's suffering.
It has its own negative seed there, right? And
as much as you'd have compassion, you're like,
oh, I'm glad I'm not that. You can do that compassionately.
But I think the space that is hard, just because
we are such social creatures, we learn from each
other. How do we move away from that comparative
sense of whether it's ending people with more
or being glad that they're not suffering like
people with less. I loved what Justin said about
humbling ourselves. That where we are is where,
if you're humble before God, that's where he
wants you to be. So you're not looking to others
who have less to feel good about yourself either.
Your relationship is first with who God is as
a creator, where His presence is in your life,
where He holds you, right? And so that humility
can feed a gratitude that is not about things.
So much is about your relationship with God as
much as it's possible to do that. I know I speak
an idealistic terms It's harder to do that in
a world where we do need material things to to
basically be happy like you can't be happy if
you're starving and You know, there are genuine.
I agree with Billy You know, there is a sense
in which those who have should be sharing should
be volunteering should be doing these things
But in terms of the just that attitude of comparison,
you know Humbling himself before God, you know
allows you to be to trust him for where you are
Yeah, and I think that can be a kind of antidote
On the comparative party so we we shouldn't be
comparing ourselves to others we need to focus
on God and And the I think the worst I don't
know are there levels to envy I think there are
then I think the worst level of envy is is wanting
what others have and not so for yourself that
you want them and not wanting others to have
it. Yeah. Right. So there that's the comparative
part. That's where really kind of the the and
and but to avoid that is like what Justin Todd
he referred to. Peter walking on the water towards
the boat to Jesus. And he was able to walk on
the water toward Jesus because he was focused
on Jesus. And when he got, when he started to
get concerned about the winds and the waves,
the troubles of life and focused on them, instead
he began to sink into the water. And I think
that is, that's what the comparative part that
you're talking about, right? So as long as we're
focused on Jesus, we can walk on water, which
is incredible. That's a miracle. I mean, I so,
much hope for that for my life, for our lives,
that we could be so focused on Jesus that we
can do the miraculous. But the warning is, if
we turn our face away from Him and focus on other
things, you know, for me it would be a motorcycle
trip. And, you know, that next motorcycle trip,
then I start to sink. And then I get scared.
and, you know, start to panic, right? And just
think even more. So focus on Jesus. So we talked
about envy in the context of, you know, social
media sometimes feeds that. Are there other sort
of things in the world that sort of feed our
drive towards envy? Yeah, I think social media
is only the latest iteration, right? Our consumer
culture is built on envy. Essentially our entire
lifestyle in the West is built on having a nice
house, essentially the rise of consumerism was
based on a sense of keeping up, imagining a particular
lifestyle, which is when you consider the downstream
problems of our consumerism. We don't even recognize
how damaging it is. Before social media, everyone
would talk about commercials, commercials on
television. We're not watching as many commercials
on television anymore. Or throw away culture,
use and discard. The commercial was effective
when it identified an area of lacking in your
life and how that product could fix that. And
whether that lacking was real or not, the commercial's
job was to convince you it was. And then you
go and buy that product and all of a sudden your
life is great now. Yeah and so I think yeah so
media in general is very good at amplifying you
know that kind of yeah what's even like going
outside you can be envious of anyone anything
like I saw a really nice car on a walk with some
friends and I was like, yo, that's a really nice
car. And I want that car, what? But then I had
to think about how much work that person, hopefully,
put into buying that car, I guess, like honest
work, because it was a really expensive car.
But I would hope that they put a lot of work
into saving up for that car or whatever. Then
I just thought of that, and it made me less envious
because it's not just the beauty of the shiny
thing, but it's also like, oh, it took like blood,
sweat, and tears probably to get to that really
nice car. So just thinking about the process
of getting things makes me want them less, I
guess, which is good for envy rather than not
having it. It is, yeah. Karana, there was something
you said last week that stuck with me. I think
it fits in our conversation here and that's You
said that a teacher a professor had told you
to check yourself on the little things Yes, because
if you let yourself go on the little things,
you know telling a lie or then telling when telling
a lie becomes normal then cheating on a test
because you know you get that becomes normal
and then it just progresses. And so I think that
for envy, like your example of the car, right?
If you're envious of the car and you don't check
yourself, then you might begin to do things so
that you could get that car for yourself, which
might include... lying and cheating or maybe
even stealing that car. Not me. Someone might
do that. But that's the thing. If you're not
careful, you don't guard your heart on those
first steps, then it becomes easier. to take
the next step and then the next step and then
you find yourself driving down the street of
a stolen vehicle that you've always wanted and
that's not a good thing. Then it gets repossessed
and you're in jail. Yeah, I think so often...
What you were just sharing, Johanna, makes me
think about what we are envious of is always
the end result. I'm never envious of someone's
process to getting the end result. It's like
you said, you're not envious of the big bankers
of the world and stock traders and stuff because
that's a lot of work. Am I envious of their big
condo and their fancy car? Maybe, but I'm not
envious of the work that got them there. Sounds
boring to me. Yeah, it does. I'm also curious,
Johanna, I know you've lived in lots of different
places around the world. I'm wondering, does
envy look or feel different in different places?
Because we've been talking about it as this big
Western consumerist sort of thing, right? Or
is it a global sort of phenomenon in your experience?
I would say so. I think it's just kind of human
nature. all since pretty much, unfortunately.
So, I mean, it might present slightly differently
and like maybe in a different language or something
or a different expression is used for it. But
like, it's still the same thing at its core is
just wanting what someone else has. I think that's
pretty universal unless you're like part of like
an elite group of people that just does not covet
anything because you're so great. That's cool
for you, but I think most people are envious
at least a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And when you're
talking about this elite group of people, I think,
well, they're ultra wealthy, right? They're not
envious, right? But they probably are. They are.
They're not thinking ultra wealthy at all. I'm
thinking somebody who, I don't know, I think
Mother Teresa when I think somebody not envious.
I think someone who's chosen the downward path,
knowing that the world cannot. answered the real
desires of her heart and her desire was Jesus
and helping the poor, right? Then like all the
wealth just bounces off her, all this showing
of wealth, like very few people are like that.
You can say Jesus was like that, you know, I
mean, or she was like him, but you know, that
sense in which you... are able to see through
what the world pretends to promise, right? It's
huge. And that's what Jesus constantly saying,
like, don't lose your soul. What does it matter
if you gain the world and lose your soul, right?
I mean, that's a kind of warning that can guard
against envy and so much, because it gives the
lie to the sense that none of these things will
satisfy or provide. So, yeah. There are very
few people, I think, who don't want and I think
it's not even riches. I think it's the ways in
which we are we are promised fulfillment in this
world, right? We're talking about things, but
it's not necessarily things that I envy very
often. It's somebody who is successful in their
career. It is somebody who is fulfilled in certain
ways. It is, you know, And so the world is promising
us that all these things, sexuality, I don't
know, sex, careers, like these are fulfilling.
These are ultimately fulfilling. And the thing
is that at some level they are fulfilling as
material beings on this planet. It's just that
they are not ultimately fulfilling. And so I
love that. I think it's that it's an old definition
of idolatry which you know, talks about idolatry,
not as necessarily terrible, but as just mistaking
the created thing for the creator, right? And
so they're good things created for us, but they
are not the creator. And so to be envious about
these things that do in fact provide some meaning,
some fulfillment, family, you know, career, happiness,
that sort of thing. Those are the places where
I think it's very, very easy to slip into envy
and not even recognize it. So that's where I
really think eyes on Jesus, right? And trust
for your life emerging from your relationship
with Him and trusting Him for where you are.
Because those, yeah, I'm going to stop there.
Yeah, no, just as you were thinking there, I
was doing a little bit of self -reflection, but
also then thinking about like, um, like self
-pity, right? That like, sometimes envy leads
into self -pity or self -pity leads into envy.
It's this like cycle of, especially like the
example that immediately comes to mind for me
is like looking at other people who like, Have
a partner have their life. They're starting their
family there They're doing all of those like
really good things and those are they're good
things Yeah, right, but like I then I look at
myself and I'm like, I don't have that. Yeah
and it can feed this cycle of yes of pity and
envy but Yeah, I was gonna sorry. I'm speaking
a lot I was gonna say I was reading up a little
bit of an envy and the older version of envy
talks about wanting what other people have. But
it actually talks about the sadness of not having
it. There's this affective, this melancholy sense
of deprivation. It's not admiration. Envy is
not just admiration. Admiration is self -giving.
You can admire something and feel like, okay,
this is beautiful. feel envious, but when it
actually makes you feel sad about what you don't
have. That's, that's that sort of element. What
you're talking about is that absence of what
we need to be complete. Right? Exactly. So we've
circled around this a couple of times where we're
just saying, you know, we are, we're built. by
God to be in relationship, to be in community,
to believe and to have a sense of belonging.
And so we crave those things that we think will
complete us. And the absence of those things
does make us sad and does make us, you know...
desire to have those things to be complete. It's
just that, as Justin talked about, our faulty
moral compass points us in the wrong direction
to what we think we need to be complete and to
have our heart full. as God has designed us to.
And so we pick the wrong things. But that motivation,
that desire is built in, is hardwired into the
creation of us. And God did that, right? But
God did that to point us to Him. But we take
that and we point it to a really nice motorcycle.
We substitute a lot of things. Because you pick
the things that you desire. And in the hopes
that that will make us complete. Or less sad.
And for a time we are happy. But ultimately we
need to recognize that that's not the thing that's
gonna... And that's gonna make it so, you know,
we're gonna check ourselves We've got a you know,
get our compass pointed in the right direction
and keep our focus on on Jesus as much as we
can Yeah, so we've been talking about, you know
this idea checking ourselves gratitude keeping
our eyes on Jesus We've been talking about them
sort of conceptually. So I want us to end with
some like really practical like what does that
look like so as corny as it sounds like When
I think about gratitude, I think about like a
gratitude journal and literally just writing
down every day. This is a good thing that happened
today. This is what I'm grateful for. And the
times where I've done that in my life, it's been
surprisingly helpful because it feels really
basic and corny, like I said, but it actually
is super helpful, I think. Are there other sort
of practical things? No, I think gratitude's
huge because I'm very tempted by, you know, especially
when close people, friends who just have more,
right? And there was a point at which I was praying
with the kids, and we always act, right? It helps
the kids to adoration, confession, thanksgiving.
And the thanksgiving part, we were like, thank
you, let's talk about thank you. And just even
praying with them helped. And there was once
we were talking about thank you for all that
you've given us. And my son said, and thank you
for you gave us more than we need right like
thank you for giving us all we need and he gave
us more than we need and so now our prayers thank
you for giving us more than we need and that
has helped a lot for our family at least for
me yeah it's like my goodness what am i you know
what am i upset about or what am i feeling here
i have more than i need and so for now that that
has been Very helpful. Yeah, I think it's kind
of been like waiting because I don't know I feel
like when I get envious I can feel a bit impulsive.
Yep. So it's like, okay, I want that thing. I
have money I'm going to buy it now and that's
like really bad financially So just like waiting.
Yeah to realize like oh, I actually don't need
this or I already have something similar at home
already or whatever then like you just The feeling
kind of fades. It's like one of those things
where like the first bit of envy is like so strong
It's like I need it. I'm deprived and then you
wait it out It's like I actually lived like a
while before the thing even appeared in my head
and I can keep doing that I didn't do that for
like the rings that I'm wearing because I saw
someone wearing them on Instagram and then I
went to the Amazon storefront because they were
really cute and cool and I liked them. And then
I bought them for myself that same exact minute,
which is really bad. I should have thought about
it before. I mean, I don't regret it, but they're
nice rings. Thank you. Yeah. Green tree frog
ring. It's very nice. And you have matching earrings
too. Yeah, they're turtles though, but they're
not frogs. I'm envious of your earrings. I might
go to Amazon and order me one. You can't separate
the friends though. They're a duo. But yeah,
like just waiting. is probably a good practice
if you're someone who's impulsive when they're
envious like me. For me, I would talk about developing
a habit of gratitude. So for me, I talk about
discipline, like developing a discipline and
training yourself. And so for me, I need to build
that into my life as a regular reminder. So if
it's something that's important to me, I need
to, and that's, you know, I pray on my own about
just being grateful for what I have in my life,
for my family, my wife, my daughters. and that
kind of thing, but also in my life group on a
weekly basis, just kind of doing that as a group
together, just to be grateful for what we have
and to be aware of or mindful of those who don't
and to, when we can, do something to help. So
one is the habit of gratitude and taking opportunities
to be thankful. And then I would say that the
second thing is, I've already mentioned earlier,
but it would be to volunteer in the community
and to really, I mean, that is a practice of
humbling yourself to serve others. And it's in
that. that we see the need that other people
have for food, for housing, for education, for
mental health, and how we can help. I think that's
also a part of checking that need or that envy
that we see in the lives of other people that
have what we don't have that we want is to spend
time with people who have less and help them.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and if I could just add
one thing more to the gratitude and waiting,
it's also the trust. The trust that God has you
in His hands now where you are, right? Because
there are people who might not have a lot, who
are in fact struggling and, you know, and so
as they pray for sustenance, as they pray for
help, right, to trust that even in the hard times
that God's got you in His hand. And that can
help a lot. So I think that sense of cultivating
that trust is deeply important to sort of guard
against envy. Well, thank you so much, folks.
This has been a really rich... conversation.
A lot of stuff to unpack, for sure. But I think
we've ended up somewhere a little bit hopeful,
which feels good. Yeah, so thank you for this
conversation. And thank you for tuning in and
listening with us. I hope that you have also
been able to find some nuggets of wisdom and
hope to move forward through this Lenten journey.
And we will see you again next week.