WEBVTT 00:00:04.569 --> 00:00:07.169 Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode 00:00:07.169 --> 00:00:11.449 of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla. I'm Jordana. 00:00:12.369 --> 00:00:16.789 My name is Bill. And I'm Johanna. And we are 00:00:16.789 --> 00:00:21.129 sitting down to talk this week about envy, which 00:00:21.129 --> 00:00:26.149 is kind of a tricky thing to talk about, I think. 00:00:26.550 --> 00:00:29.489 But hopefully we can have some really good conversations. 00:00:30.329 --> 00:00:32.960 The first thing that I wanted us to sort of work 00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:35.100 on and sort of clarify together is like what 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:39.060 is envy and is envy the same thing as jealousy 00:00:39.060 --> 00:00:42.359 or is it a little bit different than that yeah 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:46.740 what what do we think yeah it can be used interchangeably 00:00:46.740 --> 00:00:50.320 i think we very often do it yeah i think what 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:54.439 i think of is that jealousy has to do with what 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:56.780 you possess but you know jealousy can be used 00:00:56.780 --> 00:00:59.579 in a different way sure than envy yeah he has 00:00:59.579 --> 00:01:02.090 to do with other people's jealousy as new maybe 00:01:02.090 --> 00:01:05.829 with what you have okay okay that's one way of 00:01:05.829 --> 00:01:08.969 thinking other other thoughts i see them as pretty 00:01:08.969 --> 00:01:11.090 much the same thing so it's very interchangeable 00:01:11.090 --> 00:01:14.810 but um but um yeah i'd i'd uh i'd certainly be 00:01:14.810 --> 00:01:16.530 interested in learning more about what the distinction 00:01:16.530 --> 00:01:19.430 between the two are so johanna i did not know 00:01:19.430 --> 00:01:21.689 that there was a distinction actually for me 00:01:21.689 --> 00:01:24.950 let me clarify what i mean then it's it's you 00:01:24.950 --> 00:01:27.579 can be jealous for your honor or somebody who 00:01:27.579 --> 00:01:29.900 has been accused can be jealous for their innocence. 00:01:30.299 --> 00:01:33.700 Like, there is a way of saying that, you know, 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:36.420 you're sort of protective. It's about protecting 00:01:36.420 --> 00:01:39.620 something. Now it can be bad, you know, you're 00:01:39.620 --> 00:01:42.840 sort of, this is mine, I don't share it sort 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:46.239 of thing. But you can also recognize that. when 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:48.840 you're like, God is jealous, they say, right? 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:51.239 Just and jealous God, right? He's jealous for 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.459 His own glory. Oh, okay. Yeah. Like others that 00:01:54.459 --> 00:01:57.260 are not worthy of that worship. Yes. Right. I 00:01:57.260 --> 00:01:59.280 see that as a different meaning of jealousy. 00:01:59.299 --> 00:01:59.980 Yes, it's a slightly different meaning. As an 00:01:59.980 --> 00:02:02.359 alternate meaning of jealousy as opposed to... 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:04.640 the meaning of jealousy, which is basically the 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:07.680 same as envy. I see what you mean there. So a 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:09.860 person could also be jealous for their own honor 00:02:09.860 --> 00:02:12.060 or something, though what they're doing is protecting 00:02:12.060 --> 00:02:14.280 it. So there is that sense of jealousy that's 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:17.180 not very used, I think, today. And that's not 00:02:17.180 --> 00:02:22.560 necessarily a bad thing or a more positive use 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.699 of the word jealous or jealousy. Right. Yeah, 00:02:25.699 --> 00:02:27.740 so then that actually helps to make sense of 00:02:27.740 --> 00:02:30.379 like why we can talk about God is jealous. Yes. 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:33.500 Right? Because yeah, if jealousy, if we think 00:02:33.500 --> 00:02:35.900 jealousy is the same thing as envy and envy is 00:02:35.900 --> 00:02:38.939 a sin, then like God can't be jealous, right? 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:40.800 Because then we would be saying God is sinful. 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:43.300 But yeah, that helps make sense of it for sure. 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:47.419 Yeah, so humans and God can be jealous in a good 00:02:47.419 --> 00:02:50.400 way. But as I said, that's not a very useful, 00:02:50.620 --> 00:02:53.120 it's not a very common way of thinking of jealousy. 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:56.439 And most of the time we just think of being jealous 00:02:56.439 --> 00:02:58.560 of somebody else, in which case it's almost the 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:01.740 same as envy. Right. So if we're talking about 00:03:01.740 --> 00:03:03.900 the definition of envy, I think we heard it a 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:06.860 couple times in the service, and Justin said 00:03:06.860 --> 00:03:09.699 it, is that very simply envy is wanting what 00:03:09.699 --> 00:03:12.479 other people have. Right. Stuff we don't have, 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:14.759 we want what they have, and we're envious of 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:19.199 them and what they have. Yeah. Yeah, one of the 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:21.259 other things that I was reading about this week 00:03:21.259 --> 00:03:24.520 and sort of thinking about this was there was 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:27.620 some people saying that like envy when we use 00:03:27.620 --> 00:03:29.919 that word we're more focused on like the thing 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:33.159 that we are envious of whereas like jealousy 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:36.180 sometimes we're more talking about like the person 00:03:36.180 --> 00:03:39.960 so like i don't know i am envious of bill's phone 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:42.319 for example like i really want the phone it's 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.120 a good phone it's a good phone yeah but if i 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:47.039 was saying i was jealous then it's more about 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:50.240 like oh my relationship with bill right then 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.389 i don't know does that feel true in the way that 00:03:53.389 --> 00:03:55.449 we use those words. So you're still jealous of 00:03:55.449 --> 00:03:57.830 the phone. You're still envious of the phone, 00:03:58.009 --> 00:04:00.770 but the jealousy is on the person. Oh, yeah, 00:04:00.789 --> 00:04:03.389 yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that's a good distinction, 00:04:03.770 --> 00:04:06.129 too. That's helpful. I've never thought about 00:04:06.129 --> 00:04:10.530 it that way. OK. Does it feel true? I guess so, 00:04:10.590 --> 00:04:14.030 if I think about it now. But like for me, jealous 00:04:14.030 --> 00:04:15.990 just kind of seems like a thing that you say, 00:04:16.470 --> 00:04:18.550 like, oh, I'm so jealous or whatever. Like, it's 00:04:18.550 --> 00:04:22.189 just. a normalized kind of word versus envious 00:04:22.189 --> 00:04:25.310 is like, oh, that's a sin. That's how it feels 00:04:25.310 --> 00:04:28.230 like for me. So like the word like, like saying 00:04:28.230 --> 00:04:30.269 you're envious of someone sounds like you're 00:04:30.269 --> 00:04:33.170 like plotting on them or something. Like, but 00:04:33.170 --> 00:04:35.329 it's like jealous just kind of, you just kind 00:04:35.329 --> 00:04:37.889 of throw that word around. Like if you're like 00:04:37.889 --> 00:04:41.569 mildly wanting something is how I use it. Or 00:04:41.569 --> 00:04:44.870 Tohanna would say, I'm so jelly. I would not 00:04:44.870 --> 00:04:48.149 say that. Okay, well maybe some other young people 00:04:48.149 --> 00:04:56.529 would. So, where does envy or jealousy sort of 00:04:56.529 --> 00:05:02.850 come from? Why does it exist? Maybe a lack kind 00:05:02.850 --> 00:05:05.339 of mindset. Like you feel like you're lacking 00:05:05.339 --> 00:05:08.360 something so you want. That's how it works in 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.259 my head at least, like the gear is working that 00:05:10.259 --> 00:05:12.860 way. It's not just lack. Like somebody can lack 00:05:12.860 --> 00:05:16.000 food and genuinely be hungry, right? I think 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.839 it's that comparative. That sense that somebody 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:22.920 has something and there's a deficiency in you, 00:05:23.259 --> 00:05:27.480 right? Like I think there's a sense that... Somebody 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.339 having it and you feeling like you should have 00:05:30.339 --> 00:05:33.079 it. Yeah, like there's an enmity There's a little 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:35.839 bit of malice there, which is why I think we 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:37.959 make that distinction between envy being worse 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:40.920 than jealousy Right that you did So the difference 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.579 between need and want yeah stuff that we need 00:05:43.579 --> 00:05:45.899 Yeah, you know for ourselves and for our family 00:05:45.899 --> 00:05:48.120 and yes, and then there's things that we want 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:49.660 that are yeah You know, we don't necessarily 00:05:49.660 --> 00:05:51.920 need them but we want them and I think that that 00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:55.480 that kind of the the level then goes to more 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:58.319 towards you know being envious or being jealous 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:01.480 of others because you know they have those things 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:05.779 that we want and we want them for ourselves yeah 00:06:05.779 --> 00:06:08.720 for sure the why for the want is kind of important 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:11.180 too because sometimes you just kind of want something 00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:15.079 because it looks appealing and your friend has 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:17.339 it and so you want to have it and you want to 00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:20.459 belong to the social group that has Bill's phone. 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:26.639 Bill's phone specifically, yes. But like you're 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:29.639 actually just fine with Kyla's phone and like 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:33.839 you have to examine why you want the thing. We 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:37.000 talked about this last week when we talked about 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:41.000 being built with a hole in our heart. It's a 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.620 God -shaped hole. And anything that we try to 00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:47.439 fill that, whether it's my phone or anything 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:50.639 that we're envious of that other people might 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:53.199 have, we try to, you know, it comes from, like 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:56.100 you were saying, where does envy come from? It 00:06:56.100 --> 00:06:59.360 comes from us desiring to fill that hole in our 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.269 hearts to make us complete. And we try to fill 00:07:03.269 --> 00:07:05.129 it with all sorts of stuff, but ultimately it's 00:07:05.129 --> 00:07:09.029 a God -shaped hole, and only God is going to 00:07:09.029 --> 00:07:11.829 serve that purpose of completing us in the way 00:07:11.829 --> 00:07:14.529 that he made us. But we try to fill that with 00:07:14.529 --> 00:07:18.769 a nice vacation, or the latest model car that 00:07:18.769 --> 00:07:23.149 our neighbor has that we want, and we get it. 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.459 And we might feel good for a little bit because, 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:29.139 you know, like we were talking, you know, last 00:07:29.139 --> 00:07:31.000 week and this week is that, you know, when we 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:32.920 get the stuff that we desire, we tend to desire 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:34.660 the stuff that makes us feel good. So when we 00:07:34.660 --> 00:07:37.720 get it, we feel good. Yeah. But it ultimately 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:41.740 doesn't fill that hole. Right. And only God will 00:07:41.740 --> 00:07:45.899 fill that hole. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, Johanna, 00:07:45.899 --> 00:07:48.259 you talked about, like, you know, wanting things 00:07:48.259 --> 00:07:54.040 that your friends have. Yeah. And I think I wonder 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:59.660 if social media then feeds into envy more, because 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:01.680 I get to see more of what my friends have. I 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:05.180 know in my own life, for example now, I've been 00:08:05.180 --> 00:08:06.699 out of high school for a number of years, but 00:08:06.699 --> 00:08:09.300 still interact with some high school friends 00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:12.639 or see them on social media, right? And there's 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.500 such a temptation in my life to be like, oh, 00:08:15.579 --> 00:08:18.930 they're going on another. international vacation 00:08:18.930 --> 00:08:22.149 or like oh they found their partner they're raising 00:08:22.149 --> 00:08:24.529 a family and that's just like not where i'm at 00:08:24.529 --> 00:08:27.790 in my life right there yeah right so like do 00:08:27.790 --> 00:08:31.230 you feel like social media like feeds envy it 00:08:31.230 --> 00:08:34.629 definitely can if you let it like i feel like 00:08:34.629 --> 00:08:38.809 it's a you control what you see on social media 00:08:38.809 --> 00:08:41.509 um so if it's like friends and stuff that you're 00:08:41.509 --> 00:08:44.370 following like You can look at the post or you 00:08:44.370 --> 00:08:46.929 could just not if you know that you're in a jealous 00:08:46.929 --> 00:08:49.889 kind of mood. I don't know. But like, I mean, 00:08:49.990 --> 00:08:52.090 there definitely is that pressure though, like 00:08:52.090 --> 00:08:55.269 added if you're seeing it repeatedly on their 00:08:55.269 --> 00:08:57.549 Instagram that they are like living a really 00:08:57.549 --> 00:08:59.870 great life and you're not like, yeah, I would 00:08:59.870 --> 00:09:03.970 be jealous. But I mean, I'm more jealous of like 00:09:03.970 --> 00:09:06.769 experiences and stuff. But like, I think that's 00:09:06.769 --> 00:09:08.730 kind of like a good jealous because it makes 00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:12.000 me want to just go and have my own. So. It can 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.120 be a motivator sometimes to be jealous, I don't 00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:17.820 know. Yeah, I think it can be a motivator. I 00:09:17.820 --> 00:09:20.840 don't know what other folks feel like. I agree. 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:24.100 I think that... And here I'm trying to make distinctions 00:09:24.100 --> 00:09:29.580 here between admiration or seeing something good 00:09:29.580 --> 00:09:34.379 that you might like to experience and envy. And 00:09:34.379 --> 00:09:37.000 so much of social media is the flip of envy, 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:39.860 which is boasting, which is based on so often... 00:09:40.330 --> 00:09:43.309 you know, recognizing I have something good, 00:09:43.330 --> 00:09:46.210 I'm gonna just spread it out. Now that can be 00:09:46.210 --> 00:09:49.190 sharing with friends, but social media, there's 00:09:49.190 --> 00:09:52.269 a weird sort of difference to sharing it publicly, 00:09:53.789 --> 00:09:55.909 rather than like a heartfelt talk with a friend. 00:09:56.090 --> 00:09:58.669 You know, that's very different. And so it has 00:09:58.669 --> 00:10:02.269 a dynamic that veers into boasting precisely 00:10:02.269 --> 00:10:05.639 at the point at which others... are invited to 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:08.620 envy. There's this broad dynamic in certain elements 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:13.159 of social media that it's inherent to the medium, 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:17.360 I think, very often. And so that's where I think 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:19.539 the temptation lies when it comes at social media. 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:25.940 It's people posting very often, very aware of 00:10:25.940 --> 00:10:30.019 the sort of boasting about their experiences 00:10:30.019 --> 00:10:34.299 or they're under the guise of sharing. for example, 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:37.419 right? Right. Because it's not personal. It's 00:10:37.419 --> 00:10:40.940 it's in a way it's and so there's where I found 00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:44.620 I've my social media. My movement away from social 00:10:44.620 --> 00:10:49.120 media has helped me a lot because as much as 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:51.360 I'd love to hear about your vacation, it's nice 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:54.379 if we actually have a conversation. Yeah. And 00:10:54.379 --> 00:10:57.259 whereas if all I'm seeing is your posts from 00:10:57.259 --> 00:11:01.970 Bali, you know, it's. It's lovely that you have 00:11:01.970 --> 00:11:05.750 that, but there's no sense in which there's a 00:11:05.750 --> 00:11:09.289 sharing among friends. And so that's where I 00:11:09.289 --> 00:11:14.149 find the medium becomes very inherently in a 00:11:14.149 --> 00:11:16.649 space where envy and boasting sort of feed off 00:11:16.649 --> 00:11:19.370 each other. It's interesting that we're talking 00:11:19.370 --> 00:11:21.549 about these kind of international trips or trips 00:11:21.549 --> 00:11:26.490 to the sun destinations, because I find over 00:11:26.490 --> 00:11:28.809 the years that I really have to watch my social 00:11:28.809 --> 00:11:33.210 media feed in January, February, and March because 00:11:33.210 --> 00:11:35.830 I get all these posts of friends that are going 00:11:35.830 --> 00:11:39.389 down south to all these really nice tropical 00:11:39.389 --> 00:11:41.690 locations and I'm looking at their pictures and 00:11:41.690 --> 00:11:47.230 I'm like... Out there shoveling your snow! I'm 00:11:47.230 --> 00:11:50.070 trying to get my snowblower to work and then 00:11:50.070 --> 00:11:52.809 I'm seeing them on the beach and having fun and 00:11:52.809 --> 00:11:57.250 doing stuff and I try to be happy for them, but 00:11:57.250 --> 00:12:00.919 I think that's where I... And I think it's all 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:04.000 of us, right? Because that sense of travel and 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:07.100 adventure. And we know it's a good experience. 00:12:08.820 --> 00:12:11.419 And I think that's the thing about envy, very 00:12:11.419 --> 00:12:13.879 often the things we want. Many of them can be 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:17.179 bad, sure. But many things that we want, if we're 00:12:17.179 --> 00:12:20.379 envious, they can be good things that we might 00:12:20.379 --> 00:12:23.529 not be. in the space or in the moment that we 00:12:23.529 --> 00:12:27.970 can experience and so recognizing that it's good 00:12:27.970 --> 00:12:30.429 and at the same time that it's not necessarily 00:12:30.429 --> 00:12:33.950 for us where we are right now and being happy 00:12:33.950 --> 00:12:37.549 or okay with that like that's the challenge right 00:12:37.549 --> 00:12:43.649 and so yeah it's if you're sort of envious of 00:12:43.649 --> 00:12:46.190 a family or if you're envious of people's experiences 00:12:46.190 --> 00:12:49.919 and all They're not bad things, which is why 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:55.000 it's so easy to envy in those moments. I've never 00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:58.639 envied somebody who's ultra rich or a hedge fund 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:02.299 manager. That's not me. I'm not even envious 00:13:02.299 --> 00:13:04.960 of you. That's because it's not your heart's 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:07.059 desire. It's not my heart's desire at all. That's 00:13:07.059 --> 00:13:08.340 where it comes from. I think the issue is when 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:11.240 you have values where you recognize these are 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:14.720 good things and you might like to have them. 00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:17.399 but they're not where you are right now, to be 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:19.759 grateful in that moment for what you have, that 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:22.399 that's the struggle. Oh, I think that's bang 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:31.799 on. So there I think, yeah. Yeah, I think, I 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:34.200 guess just thinking about it then, like if it's 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:40.820 all about our values, Like you said, I can only 00:13:40.820 --> 00:13:42.860 be envious of the things that I actually want. 00:13:43.820 --> 00:13:46.360 And they're good things, which then makes me 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:49.179 think about what Justin was just saying in his 00:13:49.179 --> 00:13:52.240 sermon about this idea of not hedging our bets. 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:55.480 If we're gonna trust God to give us something, 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.580 then we need to trust God to give us that thing. 00:14:01.340 --> 00:14:04.120 Even if it's something I could get another way, 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:13.500 I guess. So social media sort of gives us this 00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:18.139 possibility for envy. Do we think it also, like 00:14:18.139 --> 00:14:20.299 are there ways that it can be a sort of antidote 00:14:20.299 --> 00:14:24.539 to envy or does it just feed the negative? A 00:14:24.539 --> 00:14:28.679 little bit. Okay. But it's like a guilty pleasure 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:32.519 is that I will look at people who have really 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:40.659 bad lives. and then I feel good about mine. I 00:14:40.659 --> 00:14:44.960 mean, it's probably not the best motivator, but 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:49.879 it's my little thing that I do. So I think it 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:53.230 is Libby said if the antidote. to envy is gratitude, 00:14:53.389 --> 00:14:58.090 then we need to build that into our lives. And 00:14:58.090 --> 00:15:00.529 I think it's a discipline. I think it's something 00:15:00.529 --> 00:15:05.309 that we need to train ourselves to do over years 00:15:05.309 --> 00:15:08.750 and years of repetition. So one of the things 00:15:08.750 --> 00:15:11.669 I do with my life group every week, and I don't 00:15:11.669 --> 00:15:13.690 think they get annoyed at it, but it definitely 00:15:13.690 --> 00:15:16.669 is repetitive. Every week, part of my prayer 00:15:16.669 --> 00:15:18.950 request is for us to be grateful for what we 00:15:18.950 --> 00:15:22.299 have and mindful of those who have less. And 00:15:22.299 --> 00:15:27.159 sometimes I give examples of that. And that might 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:30.740 be after I shared that I'm currently not working 00:15:30.740 --> 00:15:37.059 and don't have a lot of money to, you know, beyond 00:15:37.059 --> 00:15:41.190 paying the bills to do kind of fun stuff. And 00:15:41.190 --> 00:15:44.110 then I say, and then my prayer request is for 00:15:44.110 --> 00:15:46.289 us to be grateful and be mindful of those who 00:15:46.289 --> 00:15:49.529 have less, right? So it's all kind of relative 00:15:49.529 --> 00:15:52.509 from wherever you are, but there's always gonna 00:15:52.509 --> 00:15:53.990 be people who have more and there's always gonna 00:15:53.990 --> 00:15:57.929 be people who have less. And just one, be grateful, 00:15:58.429 --> 00:16:01.529 the antidote to envy, and then to be mindful 00:16:01.529 --> 00:16:03.850 of those who are in need around us and to help 00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:08.259 out as best we can. And so that as a discipline 00:16:08.259 --> 00:16:11.659 is great, but then as an action, you know, I 00:16:11.659 --> 00:16:14.419 would... Definitely encourage people to volunteer 00:16:14.419 --> 00:16:16.539 in their community, you know to volunteer at 00:16:16.539 --> 00:16:19.080 a food bank to volunteer at a shelter to volunteer 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.580 at I I'm part of the out of the cold program 00:16:22.580 --> 00:16:25.340 in Georgetown and I volunteer once or twice a 00:16:25.340 --> 00:16:28.000 week with the overnight program where we provide 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:32.600 a warm hot meal for dinner and then a warm safe 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:35.320 place for people who are unhoused to have a place 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:38.659 to to sleep and That and that's it. You know, 00:16:38.659 --> 00:16:41.720 we're 8 p .m. To 8 a .m. And that's what we do 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:45.620 And as you participate in a program like that, 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:49.419 you become very aware of the people in your community 00:16:49.419 --> 00:16:54.919 who have less and are in need. And I think that's 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:59.179 super humbling. Wherever you're at with your 00:16:59.179 --> 00:17:02.820 life, if you're just building a career or you're 00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:05.599 saving money for a house or whatever, you're 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:12.140 at a different place. You know be grateful for 00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:15.019 where you are and be and and be aware of and 00:17:15.019 --> 00:17:17.920 help out when you can for People that have less. 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:25.220 Yeah Yeah, I think yeah gratitude is definitely 00:17:25.220 --> 00:17:27.559 one of those sort of antidotes for envy like 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:30.519 you were saying and and Yeah, the the piece you 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:32.119 were talking about about volunteering just reminds 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.059 me like I was just sort of trying to think through 00:17:34.059 --> 00:17:36.640 like compassion as another sort of antidote for 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:41.880 envy and just like recognizing There are lots 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:43.700 of people who have things that I want, but there 00:17:43.700 --> 00:17:45.720 are also lots of people who want the things that 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:50.519 I have. How can I extend compassion? That can 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:57.680 help. To be happy with where you are, that's 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:00.920 true. There's still, though, a problem with that 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:07.029 kind of comparative sense, I think. Like to feel 00:18:07.029 --> 00:18:09.569 glad that you're not that person who's suffering. 00:18:09.849 --> 00:18:14.569 It has its own negative seed there, right? And 00:18:14.569 --> 00:18:17.730 as much as you'd have compassion, you're like, 00:18:17.789 --> 00:18:21.289 oh, I'm glad I'm not that. You can do that compassionately. 00:18:22.170 --> 00:18:25.630 But I think the space that is hard, just because 00:18:25.630 --> 00:18:28.329 we are such social creatures, we learn from each 00:18:28.329 --> 00:18:34.069 other. How do we move away from that comparative 00:18:34.069 --> 00:18:40.400 sense of whether it's ending people with more 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:44.480 or being glad that they're not suffering like 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:48.559 people with less. I loved what Justin said about 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:53.599 humbling ourselves. That where we are is where, 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:56.259 if you're humble before God, that's where he 00:18:56.259 --> 00:19:01.559 wants you to be. So you're not looking to others 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:04.400 who have less to feel good about yourself either. 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:10.059 Your relationship is first with who God is as 00:19:10.059 --> 00:19:13.420 a creator, where His presence is in your life, 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:19.779 where He holds you, right? And so that humility 00:19:19.779 --> 00:19:25.640 can feed a gratitude that is not about things. 00:19:26.230 --> 00:19:28.789 So much is about your relationship with God as 00:19:28.789 --> 00:19:30.869 much as it's possible to do that. I know I speak 00:19:30.869 --> 00:19:33.910 an idealistic terms It's harder to do that in 00:19:33.910 --> 00:19:36.869 a world where we do need material things to to 00:19:36.869 --> 00:19:38.809 basically be happy like you can't be happy if 00:19:38.809 --> 00:19:41.289 you're starving and You know, there are genuine. 00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:44.589 I agree with Billy You know, there is a sense 00:19:44.589 --> 00:19:47.250 in which those who have should be sharing should 00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:49.630 be volunteering should be doing these things 00:19:49.630 --> 00:19:52.970 But in terms of the just that attitude of comparison, 00:19:53.230 --> 00:19:58.529 you know Humbling himself before God, you know 00:19:58.529 --> 00:20:02.609 allows you to be to trust him for where you are 00:20:02.609 --> 00:20:05.690 Yeah, and I think that can be a kind of antidote 00:20:05.690 --> 00:20:10.309 On the comparative party so we we shouldn't be 00:20:10.309 --> 00:20:12.309 comparing ourselves to others we need to focus 00:20:12.309 --> 00:20:17.230 on God and And the I think the worst I don't 00:20:17.230 --> 00:20:20.369 know are there levels to envy I think there are 00:20:20.369 --> 00:20:25.440 then I think the worst level of envy is is wanting 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.319 what others have and not so for yourself that 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:31.740 you want them and not wanting others to have 00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:34.759 it. Yeah. Right. So there that's the comparative 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.460 part. That's where really kind of the the and 00:20:38.460 --> 00:20:42.980 and but to avoid that is like what Justin Todd 00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:47.400 he referred to. Peter walking on the water towards 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.880 the boat to Jesus. And he was able to walk on 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.220 the water toward Jesus because he was focused 00:20:53.220 --> 00:20:55.980 on Jesus. And when he got, when he started to 00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:57.900 get concerned about the winds and the waves, 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.799 the troubles of life and focused on them, instead 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:03.339 he began to sink into the water. And I think 00:21:03.339 --> 00:21:05.619 that is, that's what the comparative part that 00:21:05.619 --> 00:21:07.500 you're talking about, right? So as long as we're 00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:10.779 focused on Jesus, we can walk on water, which 00:21:10.779 --> 00:21:13.619 is incredible. That's a miracle. I mean, I so, 00:21:13.609 --> 00:21:16.210 much hope for that for my life, for our lives, 00:21:16.289 --> 00:21:19.410 that we could be so focused on Jesus that we 00:21:19.410 --> 00:21:25.769 can do the miraculous. But the warning is, if 00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:29.069 we turn our face away from Him and focus on other 00:21:29.069 --> 00:21:31.789 things, you know, for me it would be a motorcycle 00:21:31.789 --> 00:21:35.829 trip. And, you know, that next motorcycle trip, 00:21:35.869 --> 00:21:41.410 then I start to sink. And then I get scared. 00:21:43.259 --> 00:21:47.559 and, you know, start to panic, right? And just 00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:53.259 think even more. So focus on Jesus. So we talked 00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:57.299 about envy in the context of, you know, social 00:21:57.299 --> 00:22:00.380 media sometimes feeds that. Are there other sort 00:22:00.380 --> 00:22:03.160 of things in the world that sort of feed our 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:05.200 drive towards envy? Yeah, I think social media 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:07.519 is only the latest iteration, right? Our consumer 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:10.019 culture is built on envy. Essentially our entire 00:22:10.019 --> 00:22:13.680 lifestyle in the West is built on having a nice 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:19.920 house, essentially the rise of consumerism was 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:25.299 based on a sense of keeping up, imagining a particular 00:22:25.299 --> 00:22:30.839 lifestyle, which is when you consider the downstream 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:35.039 problems of our consumerism. We don't even recognize 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:39.519 how damaging it is. Before social media, everyone 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:41.579 would talk about commercials, commercials on 00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:43.319 television. We're not watching as many commercials 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:45.880 on television anymore. Or throw away culture, 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:49.299 use and discard. The commercial was effective 00:22:49.299 --> 00:22:52.200 when it identified an area of lacking in your 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:55.720 life and how that product could fix that. And 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:59.039 whether that lacking was real or not, the commercial's 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:01.220 job was to convince you it was. And then you 00:23:01.220 --> 00:23:02.779 go and buy that product and all of a sudden your 00:23:02.779 --> 00:23:07.150 life is great now. Yeah and so I think yeah so 00:23:07.150 --> 00:23:10.990 media in general is very good at amplifying you 00:23:10.990 --> 00:23:15.269 know that kind of yeah what's even like going 00:23:15.269 --> 00:23:18.329 outside you can be envious of anyone anything 00:23:18.329 --> 00:23:22.480 like I saw a really nice car on a walk with some 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:24.720 friends and I was like, yo, that's a really nice 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:29.740 car. And I want that car, what? But then I had 00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:33.519 to think about how much work that person, hopefully, 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.140 put into buying that car, I guess, like honest 00:23:36.140 --> 00:23:38.119 work, because it was a really expensive car. 00:23:38.420 --> 00:23:41.539 But I would hope that they put a lot of work 00:23:41.539 --> 00:23:45.460 into saving up for that car or whatever. Then 00:23:45.460 --> 00:23:47.759 I just thought of that, and it made me less envious 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.279 because it's not just the beauty of the shiny 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:54.259 thing, but it's also like, oh, it took like blood, 00:23:54.420 --> 00:23:56.259 sweat, and tears probably to get to that really 00:23:56.259 --> 00:23:59.599 nice car. So just thinking about the process 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:02.559 of getting things makes me want them less, I 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:05.740 guess, which is good for envy rather than not 00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:07.779 having it. It is, yeah. Karana, there was something 00:24:07.779 --> 00:24:10.799 you said last week that stuck with me. I think 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.940 it fits in our conversation here and that's You 00:24:13.940 --> 00:24:15.900 said that a teacher a professor had told you 00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:18.119 to check yourself on the little things Yes, because 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:20.240 if you let yourself go on the little things, 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:24.440 you know telling a lie or then telling when telling 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:26.480 a lie becomes normal then cheating on a test 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:28.460 because you know you get that becomes normal 00:24:28.460 --> 00:24:31.299 and then it just progresses. And so I think that 00:24:31.299 --> 00:24:34.319 for envy, like your example of the car, right? 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:38.880 If you're envious of the car and you don't check 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:42.180 yourself, then you might begin to do things so 00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:44.119 that you could get that car for yourself, which 00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:46.799 might include... lying and cheating or maybe 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:52.279 even stealing that car. Not me. Someone might 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:59.440 do that. But that's the thing. If you're not 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:03.279 careful, you don't guard your heart on those 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:08.190 first steps, then it becomes easier. to take 00:25:08.190 --> 00:25:10.450 the next step and then the next step and then 00:25:10.450 --> 00:25:12.130 you find yourself driving down the street of 00:25:12.130 --> 00:25:15.490 a stolen vehicle that you've always wanted and 00:25:15.490 --> 00:25:18.829 that's not a good thing. Then it gets repossessed 00:25:18.829 --> 00:25:25.109 and you're in jail. Yeah, I think so often... 00:25:25.130 --> 00:25:27.190 What you were just sharing, Johanna, makes me 00:25:27.190 --> 00:25:29.630 think about what we are envious of is always 00:25:29.630 --> 00:25:33.210 the end result. I'm never envious of someone's 00:25:33.210 --> 00:25:36.470 process to getting the end result. It's like 00:25:36.470 --> 00:25:39.930 you said, you're not envious of the big bankers 00:25:39.930 --> 00:25:42.509 of the world and stock traders and stuff because 00:25:42.509 --> 00:25:45.450 that's a lot of work. Am I envious of their big 00:25:45.450 --> 00:25:48.630 condo and their fancy car? Maybe, but I'm not 00:25:48.630 --> 00:25:51.750 envious of the work that got them there. Sounds 00:25:51.750 --> 00:25:55.859 boring to me. Yeah, it does. I'm also curious, 00:25:56.299 --> 00:25:58.420 Johanna, I know you've lived in lots of different 00:25:58.420 --> 00:26:02.980 places around the world. I'm wondering, does 00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:07.619 envy look or feel different in different places? 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:10.039 Because we've been talking about it as this big 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:13.799 Western consumerist sort of thing, right? Or 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:17.819 is it a global sort of phenomenon in your experience? 00:26:18.059 --> 00:26:20.779 I would say so. I think it's just kind of human 00:26:20.779 --> 00:26:25.069 nature. all since pretty much, unfortunately. 00:26:25.849 --> 00:26:28.390 So, I mean, it might present slightly differently 00:26:28.390 --> 00:26:31.069 and like maybe in a different language or something 00:26:31.069 --> 00:26:33.829 or a different expression is used for it. But 00:26:33.829 --> 00:26:36.950 like, it's still the same thing at its core is 00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:39.329 just wanting what someone else has. I think that's 00:26:39.329 --> 00:26:42.250 pretty universal unless you're like part of like 00:26:42.250 --> 00:26:44.630 an elite group of people that just does not covet 00:26:44.630 --> 00:26:47.309 anything because you're so great. That's cool 00:26:47.309 --> 00:26:50.369 for you, but I think most people are envious 00:26:50.369 --> 00:26:54.630 at least a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And when you're 00:26:54.630 --> 00:26:56.210 talking about this elite group of people, I think, 00:26:56.230 --> 00:26:58.529 well, they're ultra wealthy, right? They're not 00:26:58.529 --> 00:27:00.769 envious, right? But they probably are. They are. 00:27:01.450 --> 00:27:03.250 They're not thinking ultra wealthy at all. I'm 00:27:03.250 --> 00:27:05.910 thinking somebody who, I don't know, I think 00:27:05.910 --> 00:27:08.069 Mother Teresa when I think somebody not envious. 00:27:08.609 --> 00:27:12.089 I think someone who's chosen the downward path, 00:27:12.089 --> 00:27:16.799 knowing that the world cannot. answered the real 00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:19.279 desires of her heart and her desire was Jesus 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:22.299 and helping the poor, right? Then like all the 00:27:22.299 --> 00:27:24.660 wealth just bounces off her, all this showing 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:27.539 of wealth, like very few people are like that. 00:27:27.819 --> 00:27:30.420 You can say Jesus was like that, you know, I 00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:33.980 mean, or she was like him, but you know, that 00:27:33.980 --> 00:27:38.279 sense in which you... are able to see through 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:42.279 what the world pretends to promise, right? It's 00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:44.859 huge. And that's what Jesus constantly saying, 00:27:45.019 --> 00:27:48.099 like, don't lose your soul. What does it matter 00:27:48.099 --> 00:27:50.539 if you gain the world and lose your soul, right? 00:27:50.900 --> 00:27:53.839 I mean, that's a kind of warning that can guard 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:56.819 against envy and so much, because it gives the 00:27:56.819 --> 00:27:59.359 lie to the sense that none of these things will 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:05.660 satisfy or provide. So, yeah. There are very 00:28:05.660 --> 00:28:08.220 few people, I think, who don't want and I think 00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:12.240 it's not even riches. I think it's the ways in 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:17.960 which we are we are promised fulfillment in this 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:20.039 world, right? We're talking about things, but 00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:22.660 it's not necessarily things that I envy very 00:28:22.660 --> 00:28:27.019 often. It's somebody who is successful in their 00:28:27.019 --> 00:28:31.119 career. It is somebody who is fulfilled in certain 00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:35.759 ways. It is, you know, And so the world is promising 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:40.779 us that all these things, sexuality, I don't 00:28:40.779 --> 00:28:43.960 know, sex, careers, like these are fulfilling. 00:28:44.779 --> 00:28:47.140 These are ultimately fulfilling. And the thing 00:28:47.140 --> 00:28:50.680 is that at some level they are fulfilling as 00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:54.799 material beings on this planet. It's just that 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:57.619 they are not ultimately fulfilling. And so I 00:28:57.619 --> 00:29:01.059 love that. I think it's that it's an old definition 00:29:01.059 --> 00:29:04.930 of idolatry which you know, talks about idolatry, 00:29:04.950 --> 00:29:10.210 not as necessarily terrible, but as just mistaking 00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:13.690 the created thing for the creator, right? And 00:29:13.690 --> 00:29:18.490 so they're good things created for us, but they 00:29:18.490 --> 00:29:22.410 are not the creator. And so to be envious about 00:29:22.410 --> 00:29:25.549 these things that do in fact provide some meaning, 00:29:25.829 --> 00:29:29.950 some fulfillment, family, you know, career, happiness, 00:29:30.130 --> 00:29:32.880 that sort of thing. Those are the places where 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:37.400 I think it's very, very easy to slip into envy 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:44.099 and not even recognize it. So that's where I 00:29:44.099 --> 00:29:47.079 really think eyes on Jesus, right? And trust 00:29:47.079 --> 00:29:50.359 for your life emerging from your relationship 00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:52.720 with Him and trusting Him for where you are. 00:29:53.819 --> 00:29:56.920 Because those, yeah, I'm going to stop there. 00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:00.690 Yeah, no, just as you were thinking there, I 00:30:00.690 --> 00:30:03.410 was doing a little bit of self -reflection, but 00:30:03.410 --> 00:30:07.970 also then thinking about like, um, like self 00:30:07.970 --> 00:30:15.329 -pity, right? That like, sometimes envy leads 00:30:15.329 --> 00:30:17.470 into self -pity or self -pity leads into envy. 00:30:17.630 --> 00:30:21.210 It's this like cycle of, especially like the 00:30:21.210 --> 00:30:23.430 example that immediately comes to mind for me 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:26.299 is like looking at other people who like, Have 00:30:26.299 --> 00:30:28.579 a partner have their life. They're starting their 00:30:28.579 --> 00:30:30.680 family there They're doing all of those like 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:32.660 really good things and those are they're good 00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:35.579 things Yeah, right, but like I then I look at 00:30:35.579 --> 00:30:38.259 myself and I'm like, I don't have that. Yeah 00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:42.400 and it can feed this cycle of yes of pity and 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:45.819 envy but Yeah, I was gonna sorry. I'm speaking 00:30:45.819 --> 00:30:48.880 a lot I was gonna say I was reading up a little 00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:51.200 bit of an envy and the older version of envy 00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:55.220 talks about wanting what other people have. But 00:30:55.220 --> 00:30:58.420 it actually talks about the sadness of not having 00:30:58.420 --> 00:31:03.299 it. There's this affective, this melancholy sense 00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:08.140 of deprivation. It's not admiration. Envy is 00:31:08.140 --> 00:31:10.460 not just admiration. Admiration is self -giving. 00:31:11.099 --> 00:31:13.480 You can admire something and feel like, okay, 00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:18.339 this is beautiful. feel envious, but when it 00:31:18.339 --> 00:31:22.460 actually makes you feel sad about what you don't 00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:24.700 have. That's, that's that sort of element. What 00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:27.599 you're talking about is that absence of what 00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:31.259 we need to be complete. Right? Exactly. So we've 00:31:31.259 --> 00:31:33.819 circled around this a couple of times where we're 00:31:33.819 --> 00:31:37.890 just saying, you know, we are, we're built. by 00:31:37.890 --> 00:31:41.250 God to be in relationship, to be in community, 00:31:42.789 --> 00:31:45.750 to believe and to have a sense of belonging. 00:31:47.230 --> 00:31:51.950 And so we crave those things that we think will 00:31:51.950 --> 00:31:55.009 complete us. And the absence of those things 00:31:55.009 --> 00:31:58.750 does make us sad and does make us, you know... 00:31:59.690 --> 00:32:03.829 desire to have those things to be complete. It's 00:32:03.829 --> 00:32:06.849 just that, as Justin talked about, our faulty 00:32:06.849 --> 00:32:09.789 moral compass points us in the wrong direction 00:32:09.789 --> 00:32:14.750 to what we think we need to be complete and to 00:32:14.750 --> 00:32:18.369 have our heart full. as God has designed us to. 00:32:18.569 --> 00:32:24.109 And so we pick the wrong things. But that motivation, 00:32:24.230 --> 00:32:29.369 that desire is built in, is hardwired into the 00:32:29.369 --> 00:32:33.869 creation of us. And God did that, right? But 00:32:33.869 --> 00:32:37.470 God did that to point us to Him. But we take 00:32:37.470 --> 00:32:41.150 that and we point it to a really nice motorcycle. 00:32:42.170 --> 00:32:45.630 We substitute a lot of things. Because you pick 00:32:45.630 --> 00:32:49.130 the things that you desire. And in the hopes 00:32:49.130 --> 00:32:52.890 that that will make us complete. Or less sad. 00:32:54.809 --> 00:32:58.549 And for a time we are happy. But ultimately we 00:32:58.549 --> 00:33:00.990 need to recognize that that's not the thing that's 00:33:00.990 --> 00:33:04.700 gonna... And that's gonna make it so, you know, 00:33:04.700 --> 00:33:08.160 we're gonna check ourselves We've got a you know, 00:33:08.299 --> 00:33:10.779 get our compass pointed in the right direction 00:33:10.779 --> 00:33:14.339 and keep our focus on on Jesus as much as we 00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:17.339 can Yeah, so we've been talking about, you know 00:33:17.339 --> 00:33:19.519 this idea checking ourselves gratitude keeping 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:22.099 our eyes on Jesus We've been talking about them 00:33:22.099 --> 00:33:24.599 sort of conceptually. So I want us to end with 00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:26.400 some like really practical like what does that 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:31.009 look like so as corny as it sounds like When 00:33:31.009 --> 00:33:33.089 I think about gratitude, I think about like a 00:33:33.089 --> 00:33:35.690 gratitude journal and literally just writing 00:33:35.690 --> 00:33:38.309 down every day. This is a good thing that happened 00:33:38.309 --> 00:33:41.329 today. This is what I'm grateful for. And the 00:33:41.329 --> 00:33:43.390 times where I've done that in my life, it's been 00:33:43.390 --> 00:33:46.750 surprisingly helpful because it feels really 00:33:46.750 --> 00:33:49.869 basic and corny, like I said, but it actually 00:33:49.869 --> 00:33:52.990 is super helpful, I think. Are there other sort 00:33:52.990 --> 00:33:55.289 of practical things? No, I think gratitude's 00:33:55.289 --> 00:33:59.789 huge because I'm very tempted by, you know, especially 00:33:59.789 --> 00:34:05.690 when close people, friends who just have more, 00:34:05.930 --> 00:34:09.309 right? And there was a point at which I was praying 00:34:09.309 --> 00:34:13.869 with the kids, and we always act, right? It helps 00:34:13.869 --> 00:34:16.409 the kids to adoration, confession, thanksgiving. 00:34:16.550 --> 00:34:19.170 And the thanksgiving part, we were like, thank 00:34:19.170 --> 00:34:21.210 you, let's talk about thank you. And just even 00:34:21.210 --> 00:34:23.230 praying with them helped. And there was once 00:34:23.230 --> 00:34:24.750 we were talking about thank you for all that 00:34:24.750 --> 00:34:27.250 you've given us. And my son said, and thank you 00:34:27.250 --> 00:34:30.110 for you gave us more than we need right like 00:34:30.110 --> 00:34:32.610 thank you for giving us all we need and he gave 00:34:32.610 --> 00:34:34.929 us more than we need and so now our prayers thank 00:34:34.929 --> 00:34:38.769 you for giving us more than we need and that 00:34:38.769 --> 00:34:42.449 has helped a lot for our family at least for 00:34:42.449 --> 00:34:45.489 me yeah it's like my goodness what am i you know 00:34:45.489 --> 00:34:48.429 what am i upset about or what am i feeling here 00:34:48.429 --> 00:34:53.289 i have more than i need and so for now that that 00:34:53.289 --> 00:34:56.500 has been Very helpful. Yeah, I think it's kind 00:34:56.500 --> 00:35:00.599 of been like waiting because I don't know I feel 00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:04.980 like when I get envious I can feel a bit impulsive. 00:35:05.099 --> 00:35:07.860 Yep. So it's like, okay, I want that thing. I 00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:10.760 have money I'm going to buy it now and that's 00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:15.219 like really bad financially So just like waiting. 00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:17.860 Yeah to realize like oh, I actually don't need 00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:20.559 this or I already have something similar at home 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.320 already or whatever then like you just The feeling 00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:25.920 kind of fades. It's like one of those things 00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:28.440 where like the first bit of envy is like so strong 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.480 It's like I need it. I'm deprived and then you 00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:34.679 wait it out It's like I actually lived like a 00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:37.340 while before the thing even appeared in my head 00:35:37.340 --> 00:35:40.739 and I can keep doing that I didn't do that for 00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:43.179 like the rings that I'm wearing because I saw 00:35:43.179 --> 00:35:45.820 someone wearing them on Instagram and then I 00:35:45.820 --> 00:35:48.250 went to the Amazon storefront because they were 00:35:48.250 --> 00:35:51.130 really cute and cool and I liked them. And then 00:35:51.130 --> 00:35:54.409 I bought them for myself that same exact minute, 00:35:54.409 --> 00:35:56.429 which is really bad. I should have thought about 00:35:56.429 --> 00:35:58.730 it before. I mean, I don't regret it, but they're 00:35:58.730 --> 00:36:01.690 nice rings. Thank you. Yeah. Green tree frog 00:36:01.690 --> 00:36:04.050 ring. It's very nice. And you have matching earrings 00:36:04.050 --> 00:36:06.150 too. Yeah, they're turtles though, but they're 00:36:06.150 --> 00:36:09.449 not frogs. I'm envious of your earrings. I might 00:36:09.449 --> 00:36:13.409 go to Amazon and order me one. You can't separate 00:36:13.409 --> 00:36:15.730 the friends though. They're a duo. But yeah, 00:36:15.730 --> 00:36:18.539 like just waiting. is probably a good practice 00:36:18.539 --> 00:36:21.199 if you're someone who's impulsive when they're 00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:26.679 envious like me. For me, I would talk about developing 00:36:26.679 --> 00:36:31.679 a habit of gratitude. So for me, I talk about 00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:34.460 discipline, like developing a discipline and 00:36:34.460 --> 00:36:38.460 training yourself. And so for me, I need to build 00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:43.639 that into my life as a regular reminder. So if 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:45.849 it's something that's important to me, I need 00:36:45.849 --> 00:36:50.610 to, and that's, you know, I pray on my own about 00:36:50.610 --> 00:36:52.989 just being grateful for what I have in my life, 00:36:53.150 --> 00:36:57.389 for my family, my wife, my daughters. and that 00:36:57.389 --> 00:37:01.050 kind of thing, but also in my life group on a 00:37:01.050 --> 00:37:04.949 weekly basis, just kind of doing that as a group 00:37:04.949 --> 00:37:07.809 together, just to be grateful for what we have 00:37:07.809 --> 00:37:12.730 and to be aware of or mindful of those who don't 00:37:12.730 --> 00:37:18.110 and to, when we can, do something to help. So 00:37:18.110 --> 00:37:24.130 one is the habit of gratitude and taking opportunities 00:37:24.130 --> 00:37:27.250 to be thankful. And then I would say that the 00:37:27.250 --> 00:37:29.369 second thing is, I've already mentioned earlier, 00:37:29.510 --> 00:37:31.429 but it would be to volunteer in the community 00:37:31.429 --> 00:37:37.269 and to really, I mean, that is a practice of 00:37:37.269 --> 00:37:40.849 humbling yourself to serve others. And it's in 00:37:40.849 --> 00:37:46.230 that. that we see the need that other people 00:37:46.230 --> 00:37:51.789 have for food, for housing, for education, for 00:37:51.789 --> 00:38:01.670 mental health, and how we can help. I think that's 00:38:01.670 --> 00:38:06.809 also a part of checking that need or that envy 00:38:06.809 --> 00:38:09.909 that we see in the lives of other people that 00:38:09.909 --> 00:38:13.260 have what we don't have that we want is to spend 00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:15.820 time with people who have less and help them. 00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:18.539 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and if I could just add 00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:21.260 one thing more to the gratitude and waiting, 00:38:21.460 --> 00:38:25.780 it's also the trust. The trust that God has you 00:38:25.780 --> 00:38:30.760 in His hands now where you are, right? Because 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:33.980 there are people who might not have a lot, who 00:38:33.980 --> 00:38:37.179 are in fact struggling and, you know, and so 00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:43.119 as they pray for sustenance, as they pray for 00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:48.719 help, right, to trust that even in the hard times 00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:52.659 that God's got you in His hand. And that can 00:38:52.659 --> 00:38:56.199 help a lot. So I think that sense of cultivating 00:38:56.199 --> 00:39:01.219 that trust is deeply important to sort of guard 00:39:01.219 --> 00:39:04.239 against envy. Well, thank you so much, folks. 00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:06.610 This has been a really rich... conversation. 00:39:06.929 --> 00:39:10.630 A lot of stuff to unpack, for sure. But I think 00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:12.269 we've ended up somewhere a little bit hopeful, 00:39:12.650 --> 00:39:15.449 which feels good. Yeah, so thank you for this 00:39:15.449 --> 00:39:17.989 conversation. And thank you for tuning in and 00:39:17.989 --> 00:39:20.429 listening with us. I hope that you have also 00:39:20.429 --> 00:39:23.429 been able to find some nuggets of wisdom and 00:39:23.429 --> 00:39:26.889 hope to move forward through this Lenten journey. 00:39:27.210 --> 00:39:28.769 And we will see you again next week.