WEBVTT 00:00:04.059 --> 00:00:06.759 Welcome to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. 00:00:06.780 --> 00:00:10.060 My name is Kyla. And I'm Bill. And I'm Johanna. 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:12.699 And we are so glad that you are joining us for 00:00:12.699 --> 00:00:15.839 this conversation about Lent and about the idea 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:19.460 of sin, which are things that we sometimes talk 00:00:19.460 --> 00:00:21.079 about in the church, but we don't always know 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:23.480 exactly what it is that we're talking about. 00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:26.100 So hopefully we can clarify some things in our 00:00:26.100 --> 00:00:28.579 little conversation this morning. Or muddy things 00:00:28.579 --> 00:00:31.660 up more. Maybe that's also possible. Yes. We'll 00:00:31.660 --> 00:00:36.899 see where we end up. Yeah. So, Lent, it's a thing 00:00:36.899 --> 00:00:41.880 that we talk about. What is it? Oh, well, for 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:44.520 me, it's something that I've observed for quite 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:48.899 a number of years as I've been a Christian, and 00:00:48.899 --> 00:00:53.380 I just find it as a great time of reflection, 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:56.320 of introspection, to kind of look in order to 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:58.640 see where I am in my Christian life and just 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:04.180 kind of make some adjustments or changes. It's 00:01:04.180 --> 00:01:07.060 a common practice for Lent for people that observe 00:01:07.060 --> 00:01:10.700 it to give something up. And I guess the idea 00:01:10.700 --> 00:01:13.780 of that is that during this time of Lent, it's 00:01:13.780 --> 00:01:18.340 generally a time of sacrifice. So you are not 00:01:18.340 --> 00:01:21.140 doing certain things. So people have chosen to 00:01:21.140 --> 00:01:24.000 give up, you know, cigarettes or drinking or 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:26.760 movies or TV or social media or whatever, any 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.340 number of things. And those are things that, 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:32.319 it tends to be things, people don't really give 00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:36.280 up prayer or Bible study. It tends to be things 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:39.239 that maybe have a potential to have a negative 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:41.799 impact in their life. So they're removing something 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.719 that's potentially negative, which is great. 00:01:44.939 --> 00:01:48.519 I think if you're every year, you're deciding 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:52.099 during Lent, those 40 days. that you're going 00:01:52.099 --> 00:01:56.040 to remove yourself from social media or you're 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:57.599 going to stop smoking cigarettes or whatever. 00:01:58.060 --> 00:02:01.689 And I think that in and of itself is great. but 00:02:01.689 --> 00:02:05.590 I like to also put something positive in its 00:02:05.590 --> 00:02:07.930 place. So when you're taking something negative 00:02:07.930 --> 00:02:11.990 out of your life, good move for sure, but then 00:02:11.990 --> 00:02:15.310 in order for it to become something that hopefully 00:02:15.310 --> 00:02:18.310 continues beyond Lent and becomes part of your 00:02:18.310 --> 00:02:20.930 character and your journey, your faith journey 00:02:20.930 --> 00:02:25.330 as well, then I like to kind of try and add a 00:02:25.330 --> 00:02:27.509 new positive habit in its place. So that might 00:02:27.509 --> 00:02:32.330 be... an attitude of prayer, or Bible study, 00:02:32.449 --> 00:02:35.909 or daily devotion, or something like that, or 00:02:35.909 --> 00:02:38.169 just reserving the time that you would normally 00:02:38.169 --> 00:02:40.530 have spent doing the thing that you've moved 00:02:40.530 --> 00:02:44.050 from your life during Lent, and taking that time 00:02:44.050 --> 00:02:48.830 to kind of read your Bible more, or to pray. 00:02:49.270 --> 00:02:51.490 And hopefully that would, positive habit would 00:02:51.490 --> 00:02:55.969 continue beyond Lent. And then year over year, 00:02:56.030 --> 00:02:58.860 that helps kind of in your in your faith journey 00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:03.120 to hopefully come closer to God. Yeah, for sure. 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:07.120 Yeah, I know. So you mentioned that Lent is 40 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.379 days, which is true. But actually, if you count 00:03:10.379 --> 00:03:12.840 the calendar days, it's more than 40. That's 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.939 right. Because the 40 days of Lent doesn't actually 00:03:15.939 --> 00:03:19.819 include Sundays, which led to this really interesting 00:03:19.819 --> 00:03:23.340 conversation in my house one year. So I had decided 00:03:23.340 --> 00:03:25.240 I was living with my parents, but I had decided 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:29.699 what if we gave up meat? for Lent. And my mom 00:03:29.699 --> 00:03:31.719 was okay with it. My dad took a little bit of 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:33.979 convincing. But he said, but you know, Sundays 00:03:33.979 --> 00:03:36.819 don't count. So on Sundays, we will eat meat. 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.199 And the rest of the 40 days will give up meat 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:43.159 for Lent. But yeah, it was just like interesting 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:45.520 thing. So do you know why Sundays don't count? 00:03:46.099 --> 00:03:48.659 No, why don't Sundays? Sundays are considered 00:03:48.659 --> 00:03:51.669 every Sunday is considered a little Easter. Okay. 00:03:52.050 --> 00:03:54.250 That's fun. And so Easter is outside of Lent. 00:03:54.330 --> 00:03:56.509 And so it's not counted in the days of Lent. 00:03:57.009 --> 00:03:58.550 So technically, if you're giving up something 00:03:58.550 --> 00:04:01.889 during Lent, you can celebrate Easter by enjoying 00:04:01.889 --> 00:04:05.379 that thing even while you're... during the course 00:04:05.379 --> 00:04:08.159 of Lent, but most people don't. They just continue 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.159 to deny themselves that thing over the whole 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:12.939 course of Lent, which I guess is better. Sure. 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:15.180 Yes. Unless you need that theological rationale 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:17.839 for a good steak. Or yeah, meet every Sunday. 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:22.660 That's a good idea. I approve. Yeah. I know, 00:04:22.779 --> 00:04:25.579 Johanna, you maybe haven't really observed Lent 00:04:25.579 --> 00:04:28.740 before. So like coming into it, hearing about 00:04:28.740 --> 00:04:30.360 it in this church, is there anything about it 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:34.319 that like stands out to you? Well, I didn't know 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:36.680 it was 40 days. I thought it was like a week. 00:04:38.339 --> 00:04:41.100 And the only part about it I knew was that people 00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:43.660 fasted. I didn't know that you could give up 00:04:43.660 --> 00:04:46.620 anything really that could potentially be a detriment. 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:49.920 So yeah, pretty much everything that you just 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.879 said is new information to me, which is very 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:57.129 good. Okay. Um, and so one of the reasons that 00:04:57.129 --> 00:04:59.649 we have this focus on, you know, giving things 00:04:59.649 --> 00:05:02.350 up for Lent is to spend more time, as you said, 00:05:02.350 --> 00:05:05.529 in prayer and in scripture. Um, and this focus 00:05:05.529 --> 00:05:08.529 on, you know, confession, especially, um, and 00:05:08.529 --> 00:05:11.370 removing sin from our lives. Sin is another one 00:05:11.370 --> 00:05:14.170 of those words that like, do we always know exactly 00:05:14.170 --> 00:05:17.769 what we mean when we say that? Do we, do we like, 00:05:18.009 --> 00:05:19.889 and like, we don't really like talking about 00:05:19.889 --> 00:05:23.310 it. Um, yeah, so like, Johanna, when you hear 00:05:23.310 --> 00:05:25.750 the word sin, like what? What do you think of? 00:05:26.129 --> 00:05:29.750 I just think like actions, thoughts that separate 00:05:29.750 --> 00:05:33.050 you from God. OK, that's just my definition of 00:05:33.050 --> 00:05:36.350 it. So I'd rather like avoid those things. Sure. 00:05:36.589 --> 00:05:39.069 Yes. Yeah. What about you? What do you think? 00:05:39.329 --> 00:05:42.189 I think that's an excellent definition of sin. 00:05:42.329 --> 00:05:45.689 I think anything that separates us from God is 00:05:45.689 --> 00:05:49.689 can be considered or looked at as a sin. I think 00:05:49.689 --> 00:05:53.050 it's I think sin in general is is often a difficult. 00:05:53.750 --> 00:05:55.709 concept to get your head around it, especially 00:05:55.709 --> 00:06:00.870 for the unchurched. I think it's often they either 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:04.529 see themselves as being good people and so they 00:06:04.529 --> 00:06:08.089 don't need God or the church or they consider 00:06:08.089 --> 00:06:11.329 themselves and in my work over the years, this 00:06:11.329 --> 00:06:14.110 has been far often more the case where they consider 00:06:14.110 --> 00:06:18.790 themselves too bad or nowhere near good enough 00:06:18.790 --> 00:06:23.730 or never good enough. to ever possibly have a 00:06:23.730 --> 00:06:26.069 relationship with God or to ever darken the doors 00:06:26.069 --> 00:06:33.490 of a church. But I think for a lot of us who 00:06:33.490 --> 00:06:36.149 do go to church, and we do think about sin every 00:06:36.149 --> 00:06:42.250 now and then, that it is a thing that is kind 00:06:42.250 --> 00:06:44.810 of important that we kind of do get our heads 00:06:44.810 --> 00:06:47.769 around and understand. I think Harold, who's 00:06:47.769 --> 00:06:50.100 the minister here for a lot of years, a while 00:06:50.100 --> 00:06:53.959 back, when he talked about sin to us, he talked 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:58.600 about the Big S sin and the Little S sins. Have 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:01.959 you ever heard this before? I'm not going to 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:03.839 do it justice because he did so much better, 00:07:03.860 --> 00:07:06.720 but I'm just going to try to give a little prescient 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:09.839 for us. Basically, he said that the Big S sin 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:14.339 was the original sin from Genesis, that original 00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:16.920 understanding the knowledge of good and evil 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:22.660 that in some way got us closer to God, but ultimately 00:07:22.660 --> 00:07:26.379 was the separation from God in the garden and 00:07:26.379 --> 00:07:30.040 then cast out. So that was like the capital, 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.839 the uppercase S, sin. That's the theological 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:38.139 foundation, foundational understanding, the theology 00:07:38.139 --> 00:07:41.279 of sin, where it got started. But what he would 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:44.240 often focus more on is the little less sins. 00:07:45.379 --> 00:07:47.800 And that was all the things, like Johanna, like 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.579 what you just said, all the things that we do 00:07:50.579 --> 00:07:54.300 that affect, negatively affect our relationship 00:07:54.300 --> 00:07:58.019 and being in communion with God. And I mean, 00:07:58.019 --> 00:08:01.379 there's too many things to begin naming. I mean, 00:08:01.379 --> 00:08:03.339 we're going to talk about the seven deadly sins 00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:07.699 and pride is certainly the first one that we 00:08:07.699 --> 00:08:11.060 talked about this morning. But yeah, anything 00:08:11.060 --> 00:08:16.160 that prevents us from being in a relationship 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:19.759 or a better relationship with God, anything gets 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.300 in the way. And a lot of times it doesn't necessarily 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:25.480 have to be, you know, you don't have to go straight 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:29.279 to murder. There's a lot of things in between 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.199 that and it doesn't necessarily need to be a 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:34.039 bad thing, but it's maybe something that takes... 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:37.139 It could be a good thing in and of itself, but 00:08:37.139 --> 00:08:39.000 it's something that takes your attention away 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:42.440 from God. It becomes more of a focus in your 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:49.299 life than God. The common one is money. It's 00:08:49.299 --> 00:08:52.320 not money that's the root of all evil. It's the 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.519 love of money that's the root of all evil. It's 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:57.740 the fact that money takes the place of God in 00:08:57.740 --> 00:08:59.740 our life, where we're worshiping money instead 00:08:59.740 --> 00:09:03.100 we're worshiping God. That love of money is the 00:09:03.100 --> 00:09:09.600 sin. And if we focus on loving God, money and 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.500 other things has its place. And so I think that... 00:09:13.129 --> 00:09:15.169 I think that's, you know, when we talk about 00:09:15.169 --> 00:09:17.509 sin, you know, there's things that are in our 00:09:17.509 --> 00:09:20.649 face, that we could be, you know, that we that 00:09:20.649 --> 00:09:23.529 are is easier for us to steer clear of, because 00:09:23.529 --> 00:09:26.490 they're obvious. And then there's a lot of other 00:09:26.490 --> 00:09:30.490 little lessons that that creep up on us and are 00:09:30.490 --> 00:09:33.789 just kind of, you know, like a lion in in weight, 00:09:33.889 --> 00:09:36.149 crouching in the in the weeds, you know, they're 00:09:36.149 --> 00:09:38.289 just like, wow, to pounce on us when we're not 00:09:38.289 --> 00:09:42.590 looking. Right. Yeah. I can like escalate um 00:09:42.590 --> 00:09:45.809 to like the little s's to the big s's I feel 00:09:45.809 --> 00:09:47.970 because I used to have this teacher he used to 00:09:47.970 --> 00:09:51.110 say um if you can lie then you can steal and 00:09:51.110 --> 00:09:53.909 if you can steal then you can kill so just being 00:09:53.909 --> 00:09:56.610 liable it was like a really extreme at the time 00:09:56.610 --> 00:09:59.690 but looking back it's like okay she's using like 00:09:59.690 --> 00:10:02.190 really extreme language to communicate to us 00:10:02.190 --> 00:10:04.429 that like the little white lies and stuff that 00:10:04.429 --> 00:10:07.690 we tell like it can lead to us normalizing further 00:10:07.690 --> 00:10:10.720 sins and so to just If it isn't a button, be 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:13.580 aware of it from the start is probably best practice. 00:10:14.220 --> 00:10:16.159 Yeah. That's great, Joanna. I love that sense 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:18.899 of escalation. It's just the beginning. It's 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:22.820 like a lobster in a pot. Yeah. When the water's 00:10:22.820 --> 00:10:25.320 cold, it's not the bad thing, but when it raises 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:26.940 over time, you don't realize you're being boiled 00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:30.340 alive. Yeah, basically. Yeah, yeah, for sure. 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.980 So that's sort of what sin is. Why do you think 00:10:34.980 --> 00:10:38.080 we don't talk about it? People don't like to 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:41.320 feel judged or called out. Okay. Like for me, 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.500 I'd rather be called out here on earth while 00:10:43.500 --> 00:10:45.519 I still have time to like do something about 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.159 it and like fix it versus called out. And then 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:51.000 it's like the rapture and I'm gone and it's over 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:54.419 for me. So yeah, I'd rather be called out here, 00:10:54.419 --> 00:10:56.960 which is why I think talking about sin is important. 00:10:57.259 --> 00:10:59.690 I think it's, I think it's shame. too. I mean, 00:11:00.090 --> 00:11:02.929 I know for me, I'm much more comfortable talking 00:11:02.929 --> 00:11:06.570 about sin as the concept than my own sins lately. 00:11:08.129 --> 00:11:10.649 That wasn't on your list. So I'm very grateful. 00:11:10.970 --> 00:11:15.789 Thank you. But yeah, it is. As we deal with this 00:11:15.789 --> 00:11:19.169 stuff is very personal. And it is good to have 00:11:19.169 --> 00:11:24.190 someone, a peer or a confessor type person or 00:11:24.190 --> 00:11:28.200 spiritual mentor that you can Go that deep with 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.360 to deal with this stuff because you need to deal 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.419 with it But but yeah, it's it's a difficult topic 00:11:33.419 --> 00:11:36.639 to be honest about mm -hmm for sure Yeah, I mean 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:39.080 you started Johanna by saying like people just 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:42.799 like don't like to feel judged right? Yeah people 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:44.799 don't like that you get that pit in your stomach 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:46.960 and it's like, oh, I don't want to be like that. 00:11:47.220 --> 00:11:50.200 But you are like that. So now what? You know, 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.639 and you try to justify like, well, I'm not like 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:55.820 that bad. Yeah, it's just a whole cycle. I feel 00:11:55.820 --> 00:11:59.200 like you have the internal shame of being sinful. 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:02.240 And so you like deny or whatever. Like, yeah. 00:12:03.019 --> 00:12:05.139 Yeah. I mean, like it just makes me think about 00:12:05.139 --> 00:12:10.279 if we don't like. to feel judged and something 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:12.919 about like sin language and like talking about 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:16.200 it. It feels like there's almost no neutral way 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:19.000 to talk about it. Right. Like, there's no way 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.899 that I can say, hey, Johanna, let's talk about 00:12:21.899 --> 00:12:27.139 sin and for it to not be like, oh, Kyla has a 00:12:27.139 --> 00:12:30.120 problem with me or like, oh, Kyla needs to like, 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:32.980 there's some problem in Kyla. Right. Like, I 00:12:32.980 --> 00:12:35.559 need to confess. Right. Yeah. It's got all of 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:38.299 this like. Loaded baggage, I guess you're about 00:12:38.299 --> 00:12:41.399 to start an intervention. Maybe. Yeah, it can 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:43.539 feel like that. Let's come and have a conversation. 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:49.820 Yeah. Oops. Yeah. Um, but I think you're also 00:12:49.820 --> 00:12:53.700 right, like on the other hand, like you said, 00:12:53.779 --> 00:12:55.500 you know, sometimes it's shame and people feel 00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:57.799 like they are just like too bad, but some people 00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:00.720 feel like they're like good. Right? And so obviously 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.700 I don't need to talk about sin because sin is 00:13:03.700 --> 00:13:06.279 like murder and sin is, I don't know, these terrible 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:09.679 things that I would never do. Right? Yeah. So 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:13.299 I think why it's so important to talk about sin, 00:13:13.539 --> 00:13:15.399 even though it's a difficult subject like you're 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:20.379 talking about, is that it kind of destroys the 00:13:20.379 --> 00:13:23.019 basic building blocks of life, how God made us. 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.509 I think when I talk about you know, growing up 00:13:26.509 --> 00:13:29.250 well, I say that there's three basic building 00:13:29.250 --> 00:13:32.789 blocks, being, belonging, and believing. And 00:13:32.789 --> 00:13:37.029 those things are crucial to us becoming the person 00:13:37.029 --> 00:13:40.690 that God wants us to be. Being is about self 00:13:40.690 --> 00:13:43.590 -worth and about growing in character and developing 00:13:43.590 --> 00:13:48.690 into who we are. And belonging is our sense of 00:13:48.690 --> 00:13:51.870 others around us, being part of a family, being 00:13:51.870 --> 00:13:55.149 part of groups. I think we're built to be in 00:13:55.149 --> 00:14:01.889 community. And that's a huge part of the positive 00:14:01.889 --> 00:14:04.509 development of who we are. And then believing, 00:14:04.509 --> 00:14:08.110 of course, is about believing in something. And 00:14:08.110 --> 00:14:11.909 I tell people how important it is for us to believe 00:14:11.909 --> 00:14:15.389 in something. It doesn't always have to be, I 00:14:15.389 --> 00:14:18.929 talk about religion, but ultimately that's what 00:14:18.929 --> 00:14:23.419 it needs to be. We've had people that have talked 00:14:23.419 --> 00:14:25.700 about there being a God -shaped hole, I mean, 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:27.620 a hole in our heart that's God -shaped, you know, 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:29.379 that you could try to fill it with other things, 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.679 but only God is going to match, you know, matches 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.039 that hole in our heart. So, ultimately, it needs 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.799 to be God, it needs to be faith that fills that 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.120 believing need that we have as humans. But sin 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.960 destroys each of those building blocks, right? 00:14:44.059 --> 00:14:48.580 So, when you look at belonging or, you know, 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:51.279 when you look at pride, as an example, because 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:53.620 that's what we talked about today, that it is 00:14:53.620 --> 00:14:55.840 devastating because it separates us from God, 00:14:56.379 --> 00:14:58.580 like not just pride, but all sin, right? It separates 00:14:58.580 --> 00:15:01.860 us from God, it isolates us from others, and 00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:06.179 it erodes us from the inside out. And so we have, 00:15:06.700 --> 00:15:10.279 so the separation from God destroys believing, 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.019 the isolation from others destroys belonging, 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:17.259 and the erosion of self destroys well -being. 00:15:17.450 --> 00:15:22.870 And so sin is that thing that just kind of destroys 00:15:22.870 --> 00:15:26.610 the basic things in life that we need to be who 00:15:26.610 --> 00:15:29.330 we are. So it's important to talk about that. 00:15:29.330 --> 00:15:32.389 Yeah, for sure. And I think another reason that 00:15:32.389 --> 00:15:34.309 I feel like talking about sin is so important 00:15:34.309 --> 00:15:37.289 is because you can't walk through the world and 00:15:37.289 --> 00:15:39.299 think that everything is okay. like you just 00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:42.600 you it's it's impossible right like if anybody's 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:44.639 out there watching the news looking at what's 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:47.519 happening in in families in communities right 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:50.820 we just we all know something is wrong right 00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:54.539 and like what i love about the sort of story 00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:57.279 of the bible is that it gives us a framework 00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:59.740 for talking about that right it gives us something 00:15:59.740 --> 00:16:02.580 that says yeah the world is wrong and like here's 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:05.840 why but also like here's the hope that comes 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:09.429 through it right like Yeah, otherwise, we're 00:16:09.429 --> 00:16:11.250 just sort of scratching our heads saying well, 00:16:11.470 --> 00:16:13.309 why isn't the world getting any better? Yeah, 00:16:13.730 --> 00:16:16.009 and that's what Rob did so well in the sermon 00:16:16.009 --> 00:16:19.309 today about pride I think he did a great job 00:16:19.309 --> 00:16:22.779 and I'm saying that not because I'm contractually 00:16:22.779 --> 00:16:25.700 obligated to say that, but I think it's actually 00:16:25.700 --> 00:16:28.379 true. I think he did a really good job at talking 00:16:28.379 --> 00:16:31.059 about the different kinds of pride. And of course, 00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:33.440 the first couple of those definitions, I was 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:35.480 going, yeah, that's not me. Yep, that's not me. 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:39.860 And then he said, oh, and if you're feeling really 00:16:39.860 --> 00:16:41.960 good about not being prideful, well, that's pride 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:48.230 too. And I'm like, oh. Oh no. And then once he 00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:51.570 kind of defined what pride was in many forms, 00:16:51.610 --> 00:16:53.950 he talked about how we can deal with that and 00:16:53.950 --> 00:16:58.509 pointed us back to God as a way to put our focus 00:16:58.509 --> 00:17:01.090 on Him and not on us. Basically saying that pride 00:17:01.090 --> 00:17:04.349 is when we focus on ourselves and if we keep 00:17:04.349 --> 00:17:08.109 our focus on God, then we can avoid being prideful. 00:17:08.690 --> 00:17:11.809 So that was great. Very simple and easy understanding 00:17:11.809 --> 00:17:19.730 of what pride is. So we talked about sin as this 00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:23.789 thing that separates us from God, but even that, 00:17:23.789 --> 00:17:25.809 I mean, that's certainly a helpful place to start, 00:17:26.089 --> 00:17:29.289 but even that feels a little bit, I don't know, 00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:32.089 out there, conceptual, I guess. So what does 00:17:32.089 --> 00:17:35.690 that actually mean? Do we have a sense of how 00:17:35.690 --> 00:17:39.089 sin separates us from God or what that looks 00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:42.119 like? Well, the first thing that comes to mind 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:45.180 would be that it distracts us from our walk with 00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:48.700 God. So like, I don't know, just the specific 00:17:48.700 --> 00:17:52.339 sin, I guess, I can't really name one, but just 00:17:52.339 --> 00:17:54.940 like anything that kind of takes your attention 00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:57.619 away from, you know, the good in the world and 00:17:57.619 --> 00:18:00.700 like the Lord, and then like brings it to this 00:18:00.700 --> 00:18:04.420 weird place that you're in. Yeah, yeah, that's 00:18:04.420 --> 00:18:07.759 fair. I would say that there's a lot of definitions 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.130 of hell. and our concept of hell is described 00:18:11.130 --> 00:18:14.549 in the Bible and cultural, you know, definitions 00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:16.450 and stuff. But ultimately, what the Bible says 00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:22.190 is hell is separation from God eternally. And 00:18:22.190 --> 00:18:27.450 so, I think sin in our life is many hells, right? 00:18:27.630 --> 00:18:33.509 Is experiencing hell on earth. And if we're in 00:18:33.509 --> 00:18:36.420 a state of ... un -dealt with sin in our life, 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:38.880 then we're experiencing that separation from 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:44.900 God and we're experiencing hell. Or a little 00:18:44.900 --> 00:18:47.740 taste of what it is going to be for eternity. 00:18:49.099 --> 00:18:50.859 Right. But what about when the sin feels really 00:18:50.859 --> 00:18:55.079 good? Right? I never said it didn't. Like the 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:57.599 gluttony that's like, maybe this isn't great, 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:00.700 but like that ice cream was fire. Right? Like 00:19:00.700 --> 00:19:03.720 after you have like cramps in your stomach because 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:06.279 you ate so much. And it's like the after effects 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:09.819 will probably show up at some point. Yeah. I 00:19:09.819 --> 00:19:12.119 mean, I can't argue with that. I experienced 00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:14.400 that for myself. I mean, I enjoy the things that 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.000 I'm that I'm not supposed to do. And I sometimes 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.079 don't enjoy the things that I am supposed to 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:24.740 do. But the the what I've read. recently in my 00:19:24.740 --> 00:19:29.880 daily devotionals and heard from Rob and Justin 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:34.980 at the men's retreat was that when we start to 00:19:34.980 --> 00:19:38.819 focus our attention on God, which is then away 00:19:38.819 --> 00:19:43.099 from sin, then we learn to like the things that 00:19:43.099 --> 00:19:48.160 we do that are in relationship to being that. 00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:52.960 giving that focus to God. And then we begin, 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:55.099 again, it's a discipline. It's something that 00:19:55.099 --> 00:19:58.519 we learn. It's not a light switch turn on and 00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:02.720 off. It's something that takes years to develop. 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:05.920 And I don't know if we ever perfect it, but you 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:10.420 learn to have that same, if not greater, it's 00:20:10.420 --> 00:20:14.460 certainly a more positive enjoyment. of those 00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:18.859 things, of being in worship, of singing praise 00:20:18.859 --> 00:20:22.339 to God, of learning new things in the Bible and 00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:25.819 applying that in our life. And just recently 00:20:25.819 --> 00:20:27.640 having the opportunity to pray for someone and 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:31.339 just feeling like God was speaking through me 00:20:31.339 --> 00:20:35.400 to respond like right then, like live action 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:42.410 prayer answers to prayer. If we can if we can 00:20:42.410 --> 00:20:45.849 get our enjoyment from those things, then a big 00:20:45.849 --> 00:20:47.849 bowl of ice cream maybe isn't as appealing as 00:20:47.849 --> 00:20:51.109 it might have been or whatever else that we're 00:20:51.109 --> 00:20:54.910 not talking about. Yeah, no, I think I think 00:20:54.910 --> 00:20:58.009 you're right that there is a sense in which sin 00:20:58.009 --> 00:21:01.130 can feel really good in a moment, sometimes not 00:21:01.130 --> 00:21:05.569 always, but it's not ultimately fulfilling. Yeah, 00:21:05.589 --> 00:21:09.940 right. There is there's a deeper. longing there, 00:21:09.940 --> 00:21:12.099 right? It goes back to that, like, God -shaped 00:21:12.099 --> 00:21:15.099 hole in your heart, right? Yep. That other things 00:21:15.099 --> 00:21:18.380 can, like, do their best, but they're not actually 00:21:18.380 --> 00:21:19.660 what we're doing for. We can spend our lives 00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:21.819 trying to jam other things, other shaped things 00:21:21.819 --> 00:21:23.799 into that God -shaped hole, and it's just not 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:27.799 going to work. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So this 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.779 morning, Rob talked particularly about pride, 00:21:32.140 --> 00:21:36.059 and I think pride, I mean, he made this case 00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:38.500 for it being this really sort of insidious thing 00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:41.079 that's just sort of always there. But I mean, 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:43.579 I appreciated the way that he started by saying 00:21:43.579 --> 00:21:45.380 like, you know, sometimes pride is we think of 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:47.980 it as maybe not a virtue, but as something like 00:21:47.980 --> 00:21:50.980 that we want to cultivate in our lives. Right. 00:21:51.980 --> 00:21:54.839 Yes. What did you guys think about that? Is there 00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:58.640 a place for a healthy kind of pride? Is that 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:01.299 possible? I don't know. Yeah, I should think 00:22:01.299 --> 00:22:04.279 so. OK, I hope so. I mean, I feel like it's a 00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:07.079 fine line between being like, arrogant and just 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.460 like full of yourself and then recognizing yourself 00:22:10.460 --> 00:22:13.180 for your strengths and stuff like that. Like, 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:15.559 I feel like you have to have that positive self 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:20.140 image, but it just can't be over, like it can't 00:22:20.140 --> 00:22:23.039 be as much of a priority like this much. It has 00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:25.859 to be like, I feel like base level just like 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:29.440 kind to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:31.299 it is tricky because I think it can be both good 00:22:31.299 --> 00:22:33.140 and bad. And so maybe it's kind of a double -edged 00:22:33.140 --> 00:22:37.859 sword thing where it is good to have a certain 00:22:37.859 --> 00:22:40.059 amount of pride. I mean, people talk about being 00:22:40.059 --> 00:22:42.900 proud of their kids. I mean, that can't be a 00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:46.339 bad thing. you do know when it's going a little 00:22:46.339 --> 00:22:49.980 over the top and where maybe being proud of your 00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:54.819 kids is maybe you're listening to too many stories 00:22:54.819 --> 00:22:58.740 of how they've got A pluses and maybe that's 00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:01.700 when it goes over the edge. But yeah, I think 00:23:01.700 --> 00:23:05.140 there is. I think there's nothing wrong with 00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:07.319 feeling good about ourselves, with feeling good 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:09.359 about... where we're at in our lives, feeling 00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:11.779 good about the church we go to, feeling good 00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:15.039 about the things that our family are doing. But 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:21.480 I think it might cross over a boundary when you're 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:24.170 pushing that or when you feel... Maybe when you 00:23:24.170 --> 00:23:27.150 feel you need to validate yourself by talking 00:23:27.150 --> 00:23:29.109 about all the good things that are happening 00:23:29.109 --> 00:23:31.970 around you and possibly in comparison to the 00:23:31.970 --> 00:23:34.329 person you're talking to might not be doing so 00:23:34.329 --> 00:23:36.230 well or in such a good place and like, oh, look 00:23:36.230 --> 00:23:38.609 how great things are going for me, right? So 00:23:38.609 --> 00:23:42.569 yeah, you can cross the line, I'm sure. I know 00:23:42.569 --> 00:23:47.279 it. Yeah. And I feel like it has to... all things 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:49.319 in balance, and sometimes it's hard to know where 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:51.500 that balance is, but I also think, especially 00:23:51.500 --> 00:23:54.920 with Pride, it's one of those things where I 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:57.259 can't necessarily judge where the line is for 00:23:57.259 --> 00:24:03.220 you, because it's all about, yeah, sort of what 00:24:03.220 --> 00:24:06.859 is motivating my statements and behaviors, right? 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.829 Because if it's... I can be saying the same thing. 00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:12.450 I can be saying, oh, I'm so proud of this piece 00:24:12.450 --> 00:24:15.250 of art that I did. Now, please worship me. Right. 00:24:15.529 --> 00:24:17.910 Or I can be saying, oh, I'm so proud of it. Like 00:24:17.910 --> 00:24:20.150 I did. I feel like I did a good job on this. 00:24:20.289 --> 00:24:23.230 Right. And like that's just a statement of fact 00:24:23.230 --> 00:24:25.470 moving on. I don't need you to validate. Yeah. 00:24:26.029 --> 00:24:28.950 Right. But it's like what what your motivation 00:24:28.950 --> 00:24:31.849 is, I guess. It feels like a minefield. Yeah. 00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:36.490 I, you know, even when you're I didn't even like 00:24:36.490 --> 00:24:41.730 Rob said, it's like even when you're so humble 00:24:41.730 --> 00:24:45.809 about your own humility, that's pride. I'm like, 00:24:46.769 --> 00:24:52.750 can't get it right. Yeah. But I think it is a 00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:54.809 minefield, but I also think it's super important 00:24:54.809 --> 00:24:57.150 for us to figure out how to talk about in healthy 00:24:57.150 --> 00:25:01.390 ways, right? Because I've been in... Christian 00:25:01.390 --> 00:25:03.369 conversations where we talk about pride and what 00:25:03.369 --> 00:25:07.430 we say is well just therefore like Self -deprecation 00:25:07.430 --> 00:25:09.589 all the time, right? Avoid the pride by just 00:25:09.589 --> 00:25:11.970 like hating on yourself and that is obviously 00:25:11.970 --> 00:25:16.589 not a healthy way to do it and clearly not what 00:25:16.589 --> 00:25:21.410 God Wants us to do right like God God made us 00:25:21.410 --> 00:25:27.430 in God's image to like as good people and like 00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:29.089 that doesn't mean I'm good all the time, but 00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:32.990 like God's not wanting me to hate on myself. 00:25:33.589 --> 00:25:38.089 No, I think we've been made good and we've got 00:25:38.089 --> 00:25:44.130 the uppercase S sin that separates from God and 00:25:44.130 --> 00:25:46.509 all our lowercase sins that separate us from 00:25:46.509 --> 00:25:49.930 God. But we have God who has loved us enough 00:25:49.930 --> 00:25:52.490 to send his only son to die for us on the cross 00:25:52.490 --> 00:25:55.869 to eradicate all that sin that we could not do 00:25:55.869 --> 00:25:58.170 for ourselves so that we can be in relationship 00:25:58.170 --> 00:26:01.470 to. So we are, you know, we're good people who 00:26:01.470 --> 00:26:04.769 have done some bad things and we have been redeemed 00:26:04.769 --> 00:26:07.930 as we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. And 00:26:07.930 --> 00:26:11.250 so we can be free of that and move on to sin 00:26:11.250 --> 00:26:18.170 no more. I think, Bill, you had a prayer that 00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:20.309 you wanted to end us with, I think. I do have 00:26:20.309 --> 00:26:23.279 a prayer. Since we're talking about pride, This 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:28.460 is the prayer of the humble man by an American 00:26:28.460 --> 00:26:34.099 theologian and hymnist named Willie Nelson. So 00:26:34.099 --> 00:26:39.960 let's pray. Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble when 00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:43.480 you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to 00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:46.680 look in the mirror because I get better looking 00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:52.240 each day. To know me is to love me. I must be 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:56.680 one hell of a man. Oh, Lord, it's hard to be 00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.880 humble, but I'm doing the best that I can. Amen. 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:08.220 All right. Sorry. I mean, no, yeah, that feels 00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:12.380 true. It's the prayer of the humble man. Yeah, 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:15.619 yeah. Some days that's just how it goes. Yeah, 00:27:15.700 --> 00:27:17.559 good. Well, thank you so much for taking this 00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:20.160 time This has been a really fun chat and looking 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:22.779 forward to journeying with you through this season 00:27:22.779 --> 00:27:26.539 of Lent Yeah, and for those who are watching 00:27:26.539 --> 00:27:28.980 and listening I hope that this has prompted some 00:27:28.980 --> 00:27:32.859 thoughts for you as well And yeah looking forward 00:27:32.859 --> 00:27:35.299 to continuing to journey with you through this 00:27:35.299 --> 00:27:37.440 season of Lent. We'll see you again next week