Welcome to this week's episode of Trinity Talks.
My name is Kyla. And I'm Bill. And I'm Johanna.
And we are so glad that you are joining us for
this conversation about Lent and about the idea
of sin, which are things that we sometimes talk
about in the church, but we don't always know
exactly what it is that we're talking about.
So hopefully we can clarify some things in our
little conversation this morning. Or muddy things
up more. Maybe that's also possible. Yes. We'll
see where we end up. Yeah. So, Lent, it's a thing
that we talk about. What is it? Oh, well, for
me, it's something that I've observed for quite
a number of years as I've been a Christian, and
I just find it as a great time of reflection,
of introspection, to kind of look in order to
see where I am in my Christian life and just
kind of make some adjustments or changes. It's
a common practice for Lent for people that observe
it to give something up. And I guess the idea
of that is that during this time of Lent, it's
generally a time of sacrifice. So you are not
doing certain things. So people have chosen to
give up, you know, cigarettes or drinking or
movies or TV or social media or whatever, any
number of things. And those are things that,
it tends to be things, people don't really give
up prayer or Bible study. It tends to be things
that maybe have a potential to have a negative
impact in their life. So they're removing something
that's potentially negative, which is great.
I think if you're every year, you're deciding
during Lent, those 40 days. that you're going
to remove yourself from social media or you're
going to stop smoking cigarettes or whatever.
And I think that in and of itself is great. but
I like to also put something positive in its
place. So when you're taking something negative
out of your life, good move for sure, but then
in order for it to become something that hopefully
continues beyond Lent and becomes part of your
character and your journey, your faith journey
as well, then I like to kind of try and add a
new positive habit in its place. So that might
be... an attitude of prayer, or Bible study,
or daily devotion, or something like that, or
just reserving the time that you would normally
have spent doing the thing that you've moved
from your life during Lent, and taking that time
to kind of read your Bible more, or to pray.
And hopefully that would, positive habit would
continue beyond Lent. And then year over year,
that helps kind of in your in your faith journey
to hopefully come closer to God. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, I know. So you mentioned that Lent is 40
days, which is true. But actually, if you count
the calendar days, it's more than 40. That's
right. Because the 40 days of Lent doesn't actually
include Sundays, which led to this really interesting
conversation in my house one year. So I had decided
I was living with my parents, but I had decided
what if we gave up meat? for Lent. And my mom
was okay with it. My dad took a little bit of
convincing. But he said, but you know, Sundays
don't count. So on Sundays, we will eat meat.
And the rest of the 40 days will give up meat
for Lent. But yeah, it was just like interesting
thing. So do you know why Sundays don't count?
No, why don't Sundays? Sundays are considered
every Sunday is considered a little Easter. Okay.
That's fun. And so Easter is outside of Lent.
And so it's not counted in the days of Lent.
So technically, if you're giving up something
during Lent, you can celebrate Easter by enjoying
that thing even while you're... during the course
of Lent, but most people don't. They just continue
to deny themselves that thing over the whole
course of Lent, which I guess is better. Sure.
Yes. Unless you need that theological rationale
for a good steak. Or yeah, meet every Sunday.
That's a good idea. I approve. Yeah. I know,
Johanna, you maybe haven't really observed Lent
before. So like coming into it, hearing about
it in this church, is there anything about it
that like stands out to you? Well, I didn't know
it was 40 days. I thought it was like a week.
And the only part about it I knew was that people
fasted. I didn't know that you could give up
anything really that could potentially be a detriment.
So yeah, pretty much everything that you just
said is new information to me, which is very
good. Okay. Um, and so one of the reasons that
we have this focus on, you know, giving things
up for Lent is to spend more time, as you said,
in prayer and in scripture. Um, and this focus
on, you know, confession, especially, um, and
removing sin from our lives. Sin is another one
of those words that like, do we always know exactly
what we mean when we say that? Do we, do we like,
and like, we don't really like talking about
it. Um, yeah, so like, Johanna, when you hear
the word sin, like what? What do you think of?
I just think like actions, thoughts that separate
you from God. OK, that's just my definition of
it. So I'd rather like avoid those things. Sure.
Yes. Yeah. What about you? What do you think?
I think that's an excellent definition of sin.
I think anything that separates us from God is
can be considered or looked at as a sin. I think
it's I think sin in general is is often a difficult.
concept to get your head around it, especially
for the unchurched. I think it's often they either
see themselves as being good people and so they
don't need God or the church or they consider
themselves and in my work over the years, this
has been far often more the case where they consider
themselves too bad or nowhere near good enough
or never good enough. to ever possibly have a
relationship with God or to ever darken the doors
of a church. But I think for a lot of us who
do go to church, and we do think about sin every
now and then, that it is a thing that is kind
of important that we kind of do get our heads
around and understand. I think Harold, who's
the minister here for a lot of years, a while
back, when he talked about sin to us, he talked
about the Big S sin and the Little S sins. Have
you ever heard this before? I'm not going to
do it justice because he did so much better,
but I'm just going to try to give a little prescient
for us. Basically, he said that the Big S sin
was the original sin from Genesis, that original
understanding the knowledge of good and evil
that in some way got us closer to God, but ultimately
was the separation from God in the garden and
then cast out. So that was like the capital,
the uppercase S, sin. That's the theological
foundation, foundational understanding, the theology
of sin, where it got started. But what he would
often focus more on is the little less sins.
And that was all the things, like Johanna, like
what you just said, all the things that we do
that affect, negatively affect our relationship
and being in communion with God. And I mean,
there's too many things to begin naming. I mean,
we're going to talk about the seven deadly sins
and pride is certainly the first one that we
talked about this morning. But yeah, anything
that prevents us from being in a relationship
or a better relationship with God, anything gets
in the way. And a lot of times it doesn't necessarily
have to be, you know, you don't have to go straight
to murder. There's a lot of things in between
that and it doesn't necessarily need to be a
bad thing, but it's maybe something that takes...
It could be a good thing in and of itself, but
it's something that takes your attention away
from God. It becomes more of a focus in your
life than God. The common one is money. It's
not money that's the root of all evil. It's the
love of money that's the root of all evil. It's
the fact that money takes the place of God in
our life, where we're worshiping money instead
we're worshiping God. That love of money is the
sin. And if we focus on loving God, money and
other things has its place. And so I think that...
I think that's, you know, when we talk about
sin, you know, there's things that are in our
face, that we could be, you know, that we that
are is easier for us to steer clear of, because
they're obvious. And then there's a lot of other
little lessons that that creep up on us and are
just kind of, you know, like a lion in in weight,
crouching in the in the weeds, you know, they're
just like, wow, to pounce on us when we're not
looking. Right. Yeah. I can like escalate um
to like the little s's to the big s's I feel
because I used to have this teacher he used to
say um if you can lie then you can steal and
if you can steal then you can kill so just being
liable it was like a really extreme at the time
but looking back it's like okay she's using like
really extreme language to communicate to us
that like the little white lies and stuff that
we tell like it can lead to us normalizing further
sins and so to just If it isn't a button, be
aware of it from the start is probably best practice.
Yeah. That's great, Joanna. I love that sense
of escalation. It's just the beginning. It's
like a lobster in a pot. Yeah. When the water's
cold, it's not the bad thing, but when it raises
over time, you don't realize you're being boiled
alive. Yeah, basically. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So that's sort of what sin is. Why do you think
we don't talk about it? People don't like to
feel judged or called out. Okay. Like for me,
I'd rather be called out here on earth while
I still have time to like do something about
it and like fix it versus called out. And then
it's like the rapture and I'm gone and it's over
for me. So yeah, I'd rather be called out here,
which is why I think talking about sin is important.
I think it's, I think it's shame. too. I mean,
I know for me, I'm much more comfortable talking
about sin as the concept than my own sins lately.
That wasn't on your list. So I'm very grateful.
Thank you. But yeah, it is. As we deal with this
stuff is very personal. And it is good to have
someone, a peer or a confessor type person or
spiritual mentor that you can Go that deep with
to deal with this stuff because you need to deal
with it But but yeah, it's it's a difficult topic
to be honest about mm -hmm for sure Yeah, I mean
you started Johanna by saying like people just
like don't like to feel judged right? Yeah people
don't like that you get that pit in your stomach
and it's like, oh, I don't want to be like that.
But you are like that. So now what? You know,
and you try to justify like, well, I'm not like
that bad. Yeah, it's just a whole cycle. I feel
like you have the internal shame of being sinful.
And so you like deny or whatever. Like, yeah.
Yeah. I mean, like it just makes me think about
if we don't like. to feel judged and something
about like sin language and like talking about
it. It feels like there's almost no neutral way
to talk about it. Right. Like, there's no way
that I can say, hey, Johanna, let's talk about
sin and for it to not be like, oh, Kyla has a
problem with me or like, oh, Kyla needs to like,
there's some problem in Kyla. Right. Like, I
need to confess. Right. Yeah. It's got all of
this like. Loaded baggage, I guess you're about
to start an intervention. Maybe. Yeah, it can
feel like that. Let's come and have a conversation.
Yeah. Oops. Yeah. Um, but I think you're also
right, like on the other hand, like you said,
you know, sometimes it's shame and people feel
like they are just like too bad, but some people
feel like they're like good. Right? And so obviously
I don't need to talk about sin because sin is
like murder and sin is, I don't know, these terrible
things that I would never do. Right? Yeah. So
I think why it's so important to talk about sin,
even though it's a difficult subject like you're
talking about, is that it kind of destroys the
basic building blocks of life, how God made us.
I think when I talk about you know, growing up
well, I say that there's three basic building
blocks, being, belonging, and believing. And
those things are crucial to us becoming the person
that God wants us to be. Being is about self
-worth and about growing in character and developing
into who we are. And belonging is our sense of
others around us, being part of a family, being
part of groups. I think we're built to be in
community. And that's a huge part of the positive
development of who we are. And then believing,
of course, is about believing in something. And
I tell people how important it is for us to believe
in something. It doesn't always have to be, I
talk about religion, but ultimately that's what
it needs to be. We've had people that have talked
about there being a God -shaped hole, I mean,
a hole in our heart that's God -shaped, you know,
that you could try to fill it with other things,
but only God is going to match, you know, matches
that hole in our heart. So, ultimately, it needs
to be God, it needs to be faith that fills that
believing need that we have as humans. But sin
destroys each of those building blocks, right?
So, when you look at belonging or, you know,
when you look at pride, as an example, because
that's what we talked about today, that it is
devastating because it separates us from God,
like not just pride, but all sin, right? It separates
us from God, it isolates us from others, and
it erodes us from the inside out. And so we have,
so the separation from God destroys believing,
the isolation from others destroys belonging,
and the erosion of self destroys well -being.
And so sin is that thing that just kind of destroys
the basic things in life that we need to be who
we are. So it's important to talk about that.
Yeah, for sure. And I think another reason that
I feel like talking about sin is so important
is because you can't walk through the world and
think that everything is okay. like you just
you it's it's impossible right like if anybody's
out there watching the news looking at what's
happening in in families in communities right
we just we all know something is wrong right
and like what i love about the sort of story
of the bible is that it gives us a framework
for talking about that right it gives us something
that says yeah the world is wrong and like here's
why but also like here's the hope that comes
through it right like Yeah, otherwise, we're
just sort of scratching our heads saying well,
why isn't the world getting any better? Yeah,
and that's what Rob did so well in the sermon
today about pride I think he did a great job
and I'm saying that not because I'm contractually
obligated to say that, but I think it's actually
true. I think he did a really good job at talking
about the different kinds of pride. And of course,
the first couple of those definitions, I was
going, yeah, that's not me. Yep, that's not me.
And then he said, oh, and if you're feeling really
good about not being prideful, well, that's pride
too. And I'm like, oh. Oh no. And then once he
kind of defined what pride was in many forms,
he talked about how we can deal with that and
pointed us back to God as a way to put our focus
on Him and not on us. Basically saying that pride
is when we focus on ourselves and if we keep
our focus on God, then we can avoid being prideful.
So that was great. Very simple and easy understanding
of what pride is. So we talked about sin as this
thing that separates us from God, but even that,
I mean, that's certainly a helpful place to start,
but even that feels a little bit, I don't know,
out there, conceptual, I guess. So what does
that actually mean? Do we have a sense of how
sin separates us from God or what that looks
like? Well, the first thing that comes to mind
would be that it distracts us from our walk with
God. So like, I don't know, just the specific
sin, I guess, I can't really name one, but just
like anything that kind of takes your attention
away from, you know, the good in the world and
like the Lord, and then like brings it to this
weird place that you're in. Yeah, yeah, that's
fair. I would say that there's a lot of definitions
of hell. and our concept of hell is described
in the Bible and cultural, you know, definitions
and stuff. But ultimately, what the Bible says
is hell is separation from God eternally. And
so, I think sin in our life is many hells, right?
Is experiencing hell on earth. And if we're in
a state of ... un -dealt with sin in our life,
then we're experiencing that separation from
God and we're experiencing hell. Or a little
taste of what it is going to be for eternity.
Right. But what about when the sin feels really
good? Right? I never said it didn't. Like the
gluttony that's like, maybe this isn't great,
but like that ice cream was fire. Right? Like
after you have like cramps in your stomach because
you ate so much. And it's like the after effects
will probably show up at some point. Yeah. I
mean, I can't argue with that. I experienced
that for myself. I mean, I enjoy the things that
I'm that I'm not supposed to do. And I sometimes
don't enjoy the things that I am supposed to
do. But the the what I've read. recently in my
daily devotionals and heard from Rob and Justin
at the men's retreat was that when we start to
focus our attention on God, which is then away
from sin, then we learn to like the things that
we do that are in relationship to being that.
giving that focus to God. And then we begin,
again, it's a discipline. It's something that
we learn. It's not a light switch turn on and
off. It's something that takes years to develop.
And I don't know if we ever perfect it, but you
learn to have that same, if not greater, it's
certainly a more positive enjoyment. of those
things, of being in worship, of singing praise
to God, of learning new things in the Bible and
applying that in our life. And just recently
having the opportunity to pray for someone and
just feeling like God was speaking through me
to respond like right then, like live action
prayer answers to prayer. If we can if we can
get our enjoyment from those things, then a big
bowl of ice cream maybe isn't as appealing as
it might have been or whatever else that we're
not talking about. Yeah, no, I think I think
you're right that there is a sense in which sin
can feel really good in a moment, sometimes not
always, but it's not ultimately fulfilling. Yeah,
right. There is there's a deeper. longing there,
right? It goes back to that, like, God -shaped
hole in your heart, right? Yep. That other things
can, like, do their best, but they're not actually
what we're doing for. We can spend our lives
trying to jam other things, other shaped things
into that God -shaped hole, and it's just not
going to work. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So this
morning, Rob talked particularly about pride,
and I think pride, I mean, he made this case
for it being this really sort of insidious thing
that's just sort of always there. But I mean,
I appreciated the way that he started by saying
like, you know, sometimes pride is we think of
it as maybe not a virtue, but as something like
that we want to cultivate in our lives. Right.
Yes. What did you guys think about that? Is there
a place for a healthy kind of pride? Is that
possible? I don't know. Yeah, I should think
so. OK, I hope so. I mean, I feel like it's a
fine line between being like, arrogant and just
like full of yourself and then recognizing yourself
for your strengths and stuff like that. Like,
I feel like you have to have that positive self
image, but it just can't be over, like it can't
be as much of a priority like this much. It has
to be like, I feel like base level just like
kind to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think
it is tricky because I think it can be both good
and bad. And so maybe it's kind of a double -edged
sword thing where it is good to have a certain
amount of pride. I mean, people talk about being
proud of their kids. I mean, that can't be a
bad thing. you do know when it's going a little
over the top and where maybe being proud of your
kids is maybe you're listening to too many stories
of how they've got A pluses and maybe that's
when it goes over the edge. But yeah, I think
there is. I think there's nothing wrong with
feeling good about ourselves, with feeling good
about... where we're at in our lives, feeling
good about the church we go to, feeling good
about the things that our family are doing. But
I think it might cross over a boundary when you're
pushing that or when you feel... Maybe when you
feel you need to validate yourself by talking
about all the good things that are happening
around you and possibly in comparison to the
person you're talking to might not be doing so
well or in such a good place and like, oh, look
how great things are going for me, right? So
yeah, you can cross the line, I'm sure. I know
it. Yeah. And I feel like it has to... all things
in balance, and sometimes it's hard to know where
that balance is, but I also think, especially
with Pride, it's one of those things where I
can't necessarily judge where the line is for
you, because it's all about, yeah, sort of what
is motivating my statements and behaviors, right?
Because if it's... I can be saying the same thing.
I can be saying, oh, I'm so proud of this piece
of art that I did. Now, please worship me. Right.
Or I can be saying, oh, I'm so proud of it. Like
I did. I feel like I did a good job on this.
Right. And like that's just a statement of fact
moving on. I don't need you to validate. Yeah.
Right. But it's like what what your motivation
is, I guess. It feels like a minefield. Yeah.
I, you know, even when you're I didn't even like
Rob said, it's like even when you're so humble
about your own humility, that's pride. I'm like,
can't get it right. Yeah. But I think it is a
minefield, but I also think it's super important
for us to figure out how to talk about in healthy
ways, right? Because I've been in... Christian
conversations where we talk about pride and what
we say is well just therefore like Self -deprecation
all the time, right? Avoid the pride by just
like hating on yourself and that is obviously
not a healthy way to do it and clearly not what
God Wants us to do right like God God made us
in God's image to like as good people and like
that doesn't mean I'm good all the time, but
like God's not wanting me to hate on myself.
No, I think we've been made good and we've got
the uppercase S sin that separates from God and
all our lowercase sins that separate us from
God. But we have God who has loved us enough
to send his only son to die for us on the cross
to eradicate all that sin that we could not do
for ourselves so that we can be in relationship
to. So we are, you know, we're good people who
have done some bad things and we have been redeemed
as we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. And
so we can be free of that and move on to sin
no more. I think, Bill, you had a prayer that
you wanted to end us with, I think. I do have
a prayer. Since we're talking about pride, This
is the prayer of the humble man by an American
theologian and hymnist named Willie Nelson. So
let's pray. Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble when
you're perfect in every way. I can't wait to
look in the mirror because I get better looking
each day. To know me is to love me. I must be
one hell of a man. Oh, Lord, it's hard to be
humble, but I'm doing the best that I can. Amen.
All right. Sorry. I mean, no, yeah, that feels
true. It's the prayer of the humble man. Yeah,
yeah. Some days that's just how it goes. Yeah,
good. Well, thank you so much for taking this
time This has been a really fun chat and looking
forward to journeying with you through this season
of Lent Yeah, and for those who are watching
and listening I hope that this has prompted some
thoughts for you as well And yeah looking forward
to continuing to journey with you through this
season of Lent. We'll see you again next week