1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,800 Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,960 My name is Kyla and I'm the Online Engagement Director here at Trinity. 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:12,960 I'm Jordana. 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,080 I attend Trinity. 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,560 And my name is Rob and I have the great pleasure of being the minister here at Trinity. 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:25,160 Yeah, so we have been over the last couple of months talking about heroes of faith, those 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,840 folks in scripture who give us an example to look up to. 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,480 And so this week we just want to sort of wrap up this series by looking at what are some 9 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:35,700 of the things that we've learned? 10 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:41,680 Who are some of the people that have stood out to us over these last couple of months? 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,240 And so yeah, thanks for joining me, folks. 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,920 Yeah, it's nice to be here. 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,200 So I want to start with a question for you, Rob. 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,040 As you think about all of these different heroes of faith, there's lots of them, are 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,340 there any common characteristics that stand out to you? 16 00:00:58,340 --> 00:01:02,840 So let's just, because I'm not sure that people know, but we were looking at just, I guess, 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,520 the heroes that were listed in Hebrews chapter 11. 18 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:06,520 Right. 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:07,960 And it's entirely possible. 20 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:10,100 The Bible's full of other heroes, right? 21 00:01:10,100 --> 00:01:14,560 So I mean, we're already kind of narrowing it down to a group, which actually, maybe 22 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,520 before I even answer that question, I'm just curious to know. 23 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,800 We went through those five or 10 names of heroes. 24 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,120 Were there any particular heroes that you thought, oh, that's my favorite or that's 25 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:27,320 the one that jumps out to me? 26 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:29,360 I'm just curious. 27 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:37,320 I think for me, I really enjoyed the sermon on Rahab and just thinking about Rahab as 28 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:42,200 a hero of faith because she is an outsider in a lot of ways, right? 29 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:49,880 She's a woman, she's a prostitute, she's not an Israelite, but she takes on this faith 30 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:57,080 for herself and yeah, has this sort of really significant role then in the story of Christ 31 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:58,080 even. 32 00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:59,080 Yes. 33 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:00,080 Yeah. 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,680 So I think for me, just recognizing that even though sometimes we look at the Old Testament 35 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,200 and we think, okay, God's story is exclusive to the people of Israel and what God is doing 36 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,200 amongst them, but even at that point, it's not really, right? 37 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,720 There are these examples of people who are sort of outside of that norm who get to have 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,040 really important roles. 39 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:19,040 Yes. 40 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:20,040 I agree. 41 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:21,040 What about you, Jordana? 42 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:22,440 I'd say two resonated. 43 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:23,440 Okay. 44 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:24,440 One was Enoch. 45 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:25,440 Yeah. 46 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,920 I don't know, not too many details about him. 47 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:34,320 I love that it was just an everyday walk with God, you know, in the ordinary, the mundane, 48 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:40,960 that faithfulness in the small things, nothing grand defined his life. 49 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,840 So I loved that, that resonated. 50 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:44,840 And then Sarah. 51 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:45,840 Yeah. 52 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:46,840 Yeah. 53 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,000 You know, Sarah for her laughing at God, the sense that she was not included in the 54 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:59,280 promise and then the fact that even when the faith falters, God still has that plan that 55 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,280 he works through. 56 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:07,720 And so I think that frailty, as you said, the frailness, that resonated. 57 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:08,720 Yeah. 58 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,440 I also resonated with Sarah as well. 59 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:18,440 I think partly because as a preacher, there's some uncertainty, some controversy, maybe 60 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,000 even around her place in this list. 61 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:27,160 And so it kind of forced you to dig a little deeper and to kind of make a case for her. 62 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:32,520 I almost felt like I was a lawyer, you know, trying to make a case for Sarah being on the 63 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,800 great hall of fame. 64 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:35,800 But yeah. 65 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:44,120 I mean, on the subject of that controversy, her name is in there, even if it's... 66 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,560 I know you made the case for that verse being about her. 67 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:48,560 Yes. 68 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:54,960 But even if it were Abraham, it was talking about her name is very much coupled in there, 69 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:55,960 right? 70 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,440 Like it's not that she's not there at all. 71 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:00,440 That's true. 72 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:01,440 Yeah. 73 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:02,440 Her name is listed. 74 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:03,840 So she is very much part of that story. 75 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:04,840 Yes. 76 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,800 But again, in one version, it just says she's barren, right? 77 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,160 So that's hardly claimed to fame. 78 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:13,360 So it depends on how you read it. 79 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:14,360 Yes, she's named. 80 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:15,360 Yeah. 81 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,680 It's not clear whether she's being named as the subject. 82 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:18,680 The one who... 83 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:19,680 Yeah. 84 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:20,680 Okay. 85 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,800 But anyways, you asked the question, but what do all these people kind of have in common? 86 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:30,420 And I mean, I'd love to hear what you have to say, but I think that as I look through 87 00:04:30,420 --> 00:04:37,280 them all, I would have to say that there is definitely a sense in which their faith led 88 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:39,000 to action. 89 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:45,080 And I can almost think of like verbs that go along with each of these heroes, right? 90 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,520 Like so Abel, he offered, right? 91 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,760 There was an action there, right? 92 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,320 Enoch walked, right? 93 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,400 Noah built this ark. 94 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,840 So there's always like, I think it just keeps on going. 95 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:04,760 So there always seems to be like, it's not just a professed faith. 96 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,840 It's a faith that actually has to do something. 97 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:11,120 And I think that's pretty important. 98 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:12,360 Abraham left. 99 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:13,520 You can just keep going through. 100 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,360 Abraham hid the spies. 101 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,160 You know, I don't know. 102 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,520 That to me is the one thing that I think is really important. 103 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:26,200 I think it's really important because the Bible tells us in the book of James that faith 104 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,320 without action, faith without works is a dead, dead faith. 105 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,400 And so here we see, yes, these heroes, it's true. 106 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,280 They had faith and that always led to action. 107 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:36,280 Yeah. 108 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:37,280 Agree? 109 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:38,280 Yeah. 110 00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:39,280 Yeah, I think so. 111 00:05:39,280 --> 00:05:40,280 And Sarah? 112 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:43,600 Yeah, maybe she's... 113 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:44,600 She laughed. 114 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:45,600 Sarah laughed. 115 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,600 Yeah, I don't know. 116 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,400 I mean, are there other characteristics? 117 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:57,320 Yes, I suppose they all endured great hardship. 118 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,520 They all went through very, very challenging times, persevered. 119 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:08,240 So I think that's also a characteristic, a quality of their faith. 120 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:14,280 And I mean, the whole book of Hebrews chapter 11 begins by saying that faith is being sure 121 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:19,180 of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 122 00:06:19,180 --> 00:06:21,640 This is what the ancients were commended for. 123 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:27,160 So I think it's saying that something they all have in common is that they believed in 124 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,920 something that they could not see. 125 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:36,240 So maybe the text itself tells us, hey, this is what all these people have in common, right? 126 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,760 They had this hope, but they couldn't see it. 127 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,400 So maybe that's the thing. 128 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:41,400 Yeah. 129 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:47,400 I mean, so often that verse is taken as a kind of sense of blind faith, right? 130 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:54,200 But when you came to Abraham, you spoke about how Abraham reasoned or logiced that God would 131 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:55,920 raise Isaac from the dead. 132 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:03,760 So could you say a bit more about that relation between faith and reason or logic? 133 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,420 So let me just acquaint. 134 00:07:07,420 --> 00:07:12,660 So yes, Abraham is willing, according to Hebrews 11, which I thought this was actually kind 135 00:07:12,660 --> 00:07:13,660 of mind blowing. 136 00:07:13,660 --> 00:07:15,240 And I don't know why I had never actually noticed this before. 137 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:20,000 I had always wondered why on earth, how on earth would Abraham go and willingly sacrifice 138 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,000 his son? 139 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:28,680 Well, at least the way the author of the Hebrews says is, ah, actually Abraham reasoned that 140 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,960 God could raise the dead. 141 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:37,640 And so that was the reason why he was willing to offer his son up is because even if he 142 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,960 had to kill Isaac, he knew that God would raise him from the dead. 143 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,260 And yeah, reasoned was the word there. 144 00:07:45,260 --> 00:07:53,560 So I think there's always this tension between faith, kind of like just complete trust, the 145 00:07:53,560 --> 00:08:06,240 things we don't understand and using our brains, using our minds that I mean, Romans 12 to 146 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:11,680 says that, you know, be, it says, don't conform anymore to the pattern of this world, but 147 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,260 be transformed by the renewing of your minds. 148 00:08:14,260 --> 00:08:18,720 And so there's something about our minds that's really, really important in the, in the journey 149 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:19,720 of faith. 150 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:20,720 We have to use our minds. 151 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,600 We have to engage our intellect in this. 152 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:28,000 But then on the other hand, you've got, you know, there's verses say we walk by faith, 153 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,000 right? 154 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,000 Not by sight, right? 155 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,000 Like lean not on your own understanding, right? 156 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,120 So that, so you have this tension. 157 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:36,120 So which is it? 158 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,720 Do we, do we, do we use our heads or do we, do we lean not on our understanding and we 159 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,020 have to walk completely by faith? 160 00:08:43,020 --> 00:08:44,020 So I don't know. 161 00:08:44,020 --> 00:08:45,920 All of those two in tension, I guess. 162 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:46,920 Yeah. 163 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:47,920 Yeah. 164 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,240 I mean, I feel like the thing that I've always sort of come back to is like, God gave me 165 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:53,240 a brain. 166 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,680 Therefore there has to be a God given purpose. 167 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:56,680 Right? 168 00:08:56,680 --> 00:09:04,880 You know, like if faith was only about leaning on like a blind kind of faith, then yeah, 169 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,040 like what, why do I even have a mind now? 170 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,000 Does that mean that all of the ways that I use my mind are like good and godly? 171 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,000 No. 172 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:17,960 But I think, yeah, there is something about having a brain and having intellect that at 173 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,160 least like it has to have some part in our faith journey. 174 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,200 And in this verse too, it's nice that he reasoned, right? 175 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:32,800 There is that mental process there in terms of what you believe and assessing it and seeing 176 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,360 where to trust and whether he is, God is trustworthy and who he is. 177 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:41,400 And so you're very much reasoning out what you believe and how you believe it and how 178 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,020 you live into it. 179 00:09:43,020 --> 00:09:49,960 And so I think, yeah, just sort of deepens our sense of what we base our life on and 180 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,320 helps us to think it through. 181 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,000 It's a very different way I think of understanding. 182 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:02,560 It's almost like maybe, so as much as Abraham reasoned it through, there still would have 183 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:04,440 had to come a step of faith. 184 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,240 So it's like, I was thinking of this a few years ago, our family went- 185 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:12,160 He's hoping for a miracle in the end, like a reason of, you know, it's a reason to a 186 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,320 point, but he's hoping for a miracle. 187 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:15,760 Yeah, that's right. 188 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:20,480 And still I would say you can reason, reason, reason, reason, you can, even if you've reasoned 189 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:25,400 something all the way you can, you're still going to be a part of it that's going to require 190 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:26,400 faith. 191 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:31,480 And I was, a couple of years ago, we went to British Columbia and we went to this place 192 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,320 called Golden, British Columbia, and there's this thing there called the Golden Sky Bridge. 193 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:42,080 It's this like, I think it is the longest suspension bridge in Canada over this huge 194 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,080 gorge. 195 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,080 It's pretty new. 196 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:45,080 You should Google it, look it up. 197 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,560 But I can remember like getting to this bridge. 198 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:53,280 Like we drove all the way there, we walked up to this bridge and I looked, I looked, 199 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,720 okay, there's the cable, the cables are going into the ground. 200 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:02,880 But you look at this thing, it is sagging and it is, it's freaky, right? 201 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,620 And you can reason it out. 202 00:11:04,620 --> 00:11:06,400 You can say, look, people are ahead of me. 203 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:07,400 They're already going across. 204 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:08,400 It's totally fine. 205 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:09,800 It's going to be just fine. 206 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:10,960 Look, this looks sturdy. 207 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:11,960 This is brand new. 208 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:12,960 It's a calm day, right? 209 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,600 I'm sure they wouldn't, I'm sure it would, they wouldn't let people walk across this 210 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,720 if it wasn't safe. 211 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,760 But still you've got to at some point take a step, right? 212 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,080 You've got to step onto that bridge. 213 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:29,200 So it's almost like reason can take you right to the bridge. 214 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,560 But faith has got to, you got to have the faith to take the step. 215 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:34,560 Yeah. 216 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:35,560 So it's both. 217 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:36,560 Exactly. 218 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:37,560 Yeah. 219 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:38,560 Yeah. 220 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:43,720 And I think we often think of the other side of reason as being emotion. 221 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,520 And I think emotion plays a part in our faith as well. 222 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,720 So in the story of Sarah, Sarah laughs at God. 223 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:56,280 She has this sort of, yeah, just like gut response to God's promises. 224 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,720 And when you were speaking about Sarah, you talked about how laughing is sometimes part 225 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,740 of our journey of faith. 226 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:04,480 And I think that's true. 227 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:10,800 But I'm also wondering, are there ever moments where that's not a faithful response, right? 228 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,120 Where it's not appropriate to laugh at God? 229 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:22,600 Well, I think there are different types of laughter. 230 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:28,640 In fact, even Sarah herself has different types of laughter in the story of the Bible, 231 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:29,640 right? 232 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:38,840 In Genesis 18, 12, she laughs more like almost a scoff, like as if I'm going to have a baby 233 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,600 in my old age. 234 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:48,080 But then in Genesis 21, when she's actually got the child, she probably laughed again. 235 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:49,080 I can't remember. 236 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:50,520 Yeah, there was a laugh of joy. 237 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:51,520 Yeah, a laugh of joy. 238 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,040 And she ends up naming the child laughter. 239 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,580 So not all laughing is the same kind of laughing. 240 00:12:57,580 --> 00:13:04,160 Even in Sarah's life, not all laughing is the same kind of laughing. 241 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:13,240 For example, Psalm 1 says, you know, blessed is the man who does not sit in the seat of 242 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,780 scoffers, right? 243 00:13:15,780 --> 00:13:25,240 So there is a way to laugh at God, which is to scoff at God, which is to, I don't know, 244 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,640 and certainly that's not a kind of, you know, that's a mocking laugh. 245 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,520 We're mocking God with our laughter. 246 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,560 Yeah, I'm certainly, I'm not saying that's a good idea. 247 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:42,880 But on the other hand, I mean, sometimes those things God does, the things God promises are 248 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:52,000 so amazing and unbelievable that I think it would be very natural for one to say, there's 249 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,000 no way, right? 250 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:58,800 And I think that's probably the kind of laugh that Sarah had was like, yeah, yeah, right, 251 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,080 as if that's going to happen. 252 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,080 I don't know. 253 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:02,080 But I mean, you guys tell me. 254 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:03,080 What are you talking about? 255 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,800 I mean, I think I was thinking of someone when you talked about that, that sort of, 256 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:17,000 it's one thing to laugh because it's hard to believe something, you know, that that 257 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:22,640 radical or crazy applies to you, that kind of blessing. 258 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,160 It's another to, I think, you know, when you talk about the seats of scoffers and all, 259 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:32,160 there's a sort of dismissal of God and His holiness and His justice and His goodness 260 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,000 and this is presence sometimes or His existence. 261 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,400 And that's a different sort of laughter, right? 262 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,560 And so I could imagine, like you can imagine Noah going through that kind of scoffing laughter 263 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,560 that he has to put up with as he bells the horn, right? 264 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:51,520 And so that's a very different sort of laughter that we're talking about than perhaps what 265 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,560 Sarah's disbelief is. 266 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,480 A different kind of disbelief is hers. 267 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,760 So, yeah. 268 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,720 And probably God can handle both types. 269 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:02,720 Yes, He can. 270 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:09,080 I mean, there are all kinds of experiences of, you know, Paul and people who begin in 271 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,320 antagonism and don't stay there. 272 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:17,400 But yeah, it reminds me, one of the things that has often stood out to me in the Christmas 273 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:22,220 story is the difference between Zachariah and Mary. 274 00:15:22,220 --> 00:15:27,080 So when the angel comes to Zachariah and says, your wife is going to have a baby, he says, 275 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:28,080 how is this possible? 276 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,720 Now, when the angel comes to Mary and says, hey, you're going to have a baby, Mary also 277 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:33,880 says, how is this possible? 278 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:38,960 But Zachariah is like judged for that, like constricted with silence and Mary is like 279 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:39,960 commended. 280 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:40,960 Yeah, yeah. 281 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:41,960 Right? 282 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,760 And so it just makes me think about, you know, we can be saying the same things. 283 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:50,480 The laughter can sound the same, but it's like where that's coming from in your heart 284 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,720 and like the intention and the thought behind it, right? 285 00:15:53,720 --> 00:16:00,040 Of like, is this a statement of faith or is this a statement of like, nah, you're crazy? 286 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,240 Yeah, yeah, that's right. 287 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,120 There's, yeah, there is a place. 288 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,700 I mean, and of course there's the other kind of laughter, which would just, yeah, the laughter 289 00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:15,480 of just joy, which should also characterize our lives as well. 290 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:16,560 So yeah, I totally agree. 291 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,280 That's a good one about Mary and Zachariah. 292 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,240 They both, they must've had just a different posture in their heart about how they said 293 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,840 the same thing, but it came across different. 294 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:26,840 Yeah. 295 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,440 And yet God fulfills his promises in both of them. 296 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:30,440 Well, yes. 297 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:31,440 Yeah, yeah. 298 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:32,440 There's that too. 299 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:33,840 So there's that grace that's always there. 300 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,440 Yeah, for sure. 301 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:40,400 So I'm going to ask a slightly different, I'll take a different Jack here. 302 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:47,280 Just during the sermon on Noah, you said that God's word doesn't just describe reality, 303 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,080 it creates reality. 304 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,860 And that feels a fairly complex sentence. 305 00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:54,720 Could you reflect a little bit on that, Rob? 306 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:59,360 Justin should be here to help us with this one. 307 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:08,360 So I think there is God's informative word and God's performative word. 308 00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:12,000 And I mean, again, from what I understand about it is that there's lots of scripture 309 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:17,360 where God is giving us information, where God's word is, you know, the 10 commandments 310 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:22,160 are just telling us things that we should know, that this is stuff that we should know. 311 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,540 History books are telling us, you know, things that have happened. 312 00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:31,240 And so that, yeah, there's the Bible's full of God's word as information. 313 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:40,600 But there are these other moments when God's word actually is like the means by which he 314 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:46,400 is accomplishing something in the world and that his word is actually now performing something. 315 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:52,280 And I think in the context of this series, I said that when God said that the world was 316 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:59,520 going to be flooded, he wasn't just kind of describing the rain clouds on the horizon 317 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,040 like, oh, you better watch out. 318 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:07,160 He was, no, it's because God said, you know, I'm going to judge the earth and build it. 319 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:12,720 That actually was the causal effect that kind of was going to bring this about, right? 320 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,360 It's kind of like Genesis 1, 1, right? 321 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:17,680 It's a classic example, right? 322 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,160 God says, let there be light and there was light. 323 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:27,440 So boom, his word is the thing that is doing it, right? 324 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:28,440 So I don't know. 325 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,680 I mean, there's probably lots more to be said about that, but I mean, what do you guys think 326 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:37,320 about God's word as informing versus performing, accomplishing things? 327 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:43,840 Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's one of those things that I don't necessarily stop and make 328 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:50,280 that distinction often, but I think it is a really helpful distinction to make because 329 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:55,880 it reminds us of who we're actually talking about, right? 330 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,800 My word is not particularly performative most of the time, right? 331 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,580 I don't speak things into being, but God does, right? 332 00:19:05,580 --> 00:19:10,780 And so it's just, yeah, one of those moments that makes us like, at least makes me like 333 00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:19,120 take a breath and be like, okay, like this is a whole other order of magnitude, right? 334 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,160 Yeah. 335 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:30,480 So could you sort of reflect then on our faith in that, on reflecting on the fact that God's 336 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:39,800 the one creating this reality around us and how we can live into it or how that might 337 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,600 affect our perception of the world? 338 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,600 Yeah. 339 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:50,320 I mean, it, so, I mean, one question might be, does God's word continue to do this, right? 340 00:19:50,320 --> 00:20:00,800 Like, so is God's word still creating and causing events to happen, transformation to happen, 341 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:01,800 healing to happen? 342 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,440 Like, is there still a sense in which God is continuing to speak, even these words, 343 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:12,080 like did they still have performative power? 344 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:13,840 Can these words come off a page? 345 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:21,640 Or, you know, in John 1, we hear about the word made flesh in Jesus. 346 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:27,560 So now Jesus is the word and Jesus goes about healing and Jesus goes about transforming 347 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,480 and Jesus goes about forgiving. 348 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:38,040 And so there's God's word in the flesh now performing and acting and calling into existence, 349 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,480 right, the kingdom of God. 350 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:50,200 So yeah, I don't know, I mean, is there a sense in which we still can somehow do that 351 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,180 as we speak God's words, are we creating? 352 00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:59,840 If you're speaking or teaching or preaching and you're speaking God's words, you're not 353 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,980 just giving information necessarily, that they still could be, you know, by the Holy 354 00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:08,800 Spirit grabbing a hold of those words, boom, doing things in people's life, like performing 355 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:14,280 things, and not just because, oh, that's information I didn't know, therefore I'm going to change, 356 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,680 but actually like the word itself is accomplishing something. 357 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:19,920 I don't know. 358 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:28,400 I mean, there is that, where is that verse where Isaiah, Isaiah 55, my word will not 359 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:35,320 return to me empty, but will accomplish the purpose for which I sent it. 360 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,320 So is, yeah, is that, is that still true? 361 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,080 I mean, I, I feel like it has to be. 362 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:44,080 It has to be. 363 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:51,520 For our lives to change, we have to at some sense receive, and the word does have some 364 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:57,160 power, I think, to change lives and to call us, you know. 365 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,980 Yeah, you just said the word has power, right? 366 00:22:00,980 --> 00:22:06,280 Not just information that can give me some advice for living a better life. 367 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:07,760 It has power in itself. 368 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,600 Now that's a pretty big statement. 369 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,280 Yeah. 370 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:21,680 And like then changes our relationship to scripture, our relationship to preaching, 371 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,320 like, like, yeah, right? 372 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:30,560 Because it's now, I mean, I think we need to sort of caveat that to say like the word 373 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,960 God's word through the power of the Holy Spirit has power. 374 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,880 So like Rob standing up there on a Sunday morning saying Rob's words is not inherently 375 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:39,880 powerful. 376 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,960 It's the Holy Spirit using those words, speaking through those words. 377 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:44,960 Yes. 378 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,240 I have a book on preaching in my office, one of the first ones I got, and it's by a guy 379 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:50,240 named Peter Adams. 380 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,400 And the title is Speaking God's Words. 381 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:59,280 That's, yeah, that's like a, it's quite a thing to think about. 382 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:00,280 Yeah. 383 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:01,280 It's cool. 384 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,280 Cool. 385 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:09,960 I was also thinking of the ways in which, you know, it's creating also those relations 386 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,520 with God that allows us then to walk in faith. 387 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:17,240 Like it's doing that work in our lives consistently as we take those actions. 388 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,240 So anyway. 389 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,240 Yeah. 390 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:20,240 Yeah. 391 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:21,240 I don't know. 392 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,880 I just, like, as I'm sort of sitting here, like reveling in all of this, it's a bit like, 393 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,160 that's like mind blowing in some sense, right? 394 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,480 Like it's one of those things that I do, I just want to stop and be like, wow, that's 395 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,480 cool. 396 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,560 And like cool is not even a sufficient word for it, right? 397 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:37,560 Yeah. 398 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,740 I think when someone walks out of church on a Sunday morning and they're like maybe overwhelmed 399 00:23:40,740 --> 00:23:41,740 with emotion. 400 00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:42,740 Yeah. 401 00:23:42,740 --> 00:23:46,440 It's probably not because they just learned something they didn't know, right? 402 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,600 It's because something has happened in them. 403 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,580 God's word has changed something in them. 404 00:23:53,580 --> 00:23:54,720 They're not the same anymore. 405 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,160 It's dislodged something. 406 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,760 It's blown something up. 407 00:23:58,760 --> 00:23:59,760 So yeah, it does happen. 408 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:00,760 It still does. 409 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:01,760 Yeah, for sure. 410 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:02,760 Yeah. 411 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:03,760 Yeah. 412 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:09,040 So as we've been talking about faith, one of the things that you've also mentioned in 413 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:16,160 a couple of sermons is, you know, this relationship between our faith and grace and righteousness, 414 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,320 which are all sort of very Christiany words. 415 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:26,060 But the sort of gist of Christianity is that we don't earn this righteousness. 416 00:24:26,060 --> 00:24:29,240 We are given it as a gift through grace. 417 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,620 Yes. 418 00:24:30,620 --> 00:24:38,080 And so if that's the case, if we're not sort of acting out our faith in order to earn righteousness, 419 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,780 what is the relationship between our faith and our actions? 420 00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:46,480 What are our actions doing if they're not trying to earn something? 421 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,320 That's a really good question. 422 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,320 Jordana? 423 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,320 Why are you looking at me? 424 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,280 Just want to hear what I would say. 425 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,600 I need more time. 426 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:11,680 I think I would deconstruct the distinction between the faith and the action. 427 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:19,480 I would say the action is what faith looks like in our everyday lives. 428 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:32,400 So yes, that grace is the place where God is saving us and doing so much in our lives 429 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,320 and giving us His righteousness. 430 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:41,800 And what that looks like when you wake up in the morning and when you go through your 431 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:49,320 day is the actions of living that relationship. 432 00:25:49,320 --> 00:26:00,000 So that's where I see, and sometimes God would call us to something where it might be a challenge. 433 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,040 It's beyond what we imagine an everyday action is. 434 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:12,160 But I think most of our actions are everyday actions in work, in our families, in different 435 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,160 ways. 436 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:23,800 So what we see with many of these actions is what that relationship looks like. 437 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:31,880 If you look at someone, it's hard to know what's the motivation for any action. 438 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:40,640 So if someone is bringing flowers to their wife, let's say I bring a bouquet of flowers 439 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,560 to Sally, it's hard for you to know. 440 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:52,400 Is Rob bringing those to her because he owes her something or he really screwed up and 441 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,680 he's got to make it up to her? 442 00:26:54,680 --> 00:27:02,040 And so this action that I'm viewing actually is rooted in some kind of guilt or expectation 443 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,640 or duty. 444 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,120 You look at it and you really can't tell. 445 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:16,400 Or are the flowers, am I giving the flowers because it's just an overflow of my love 446 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:23,320 and affection for Sally and I just can't help but constantly buying flowers this way and 447 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:24,320 that. 448 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,320 I just can't stop myself. 449 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:26,320 I can't stop myself. 450 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,320 Right? 451 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,840 So again, the outside observer, it's really hard to tell what the motivation is there. 452 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:39,960 And I think there's something about that, that what is the motivation for works? 453 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,540 What is the motivation for actually doing good deeds? 454 00:27:43,540 --> 00:27:45,600 It should be an overflow, I would say. 455 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:53,040 It should be an overflow of us coming to grips with what God has done for us, an overflow 456 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:58,920 of, man, God loves me, God has provided for me, God has given. 457 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,760 I'm so in love with God. 458 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,800 I want to now serve God. 459 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:09,520 I want to do the things that God desires because that's what you do when you love someone. 460 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:10,520 Right? 461 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:11,520 Yeah. 462 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,960 But on the other hand, yes, people could be doing all these same actions. 463 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,400 They could be helping the old ladies across the street and they could be giving generously 464 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,680 and they could do all those things, but they could be motivated and say, oh, I hope this 465 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,600 is enough to kind of get God off my back or I hope this is enough to cover up for all 466 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:33,520 of my shortcomings or I hope that this can somehow earn myself a place in heaven or whatever 467 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,280 the case may be. 468 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:44,480 So yeah, I think the proper order of things is that our actions are overflows of this 469 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:52,080 kind of the wonder of grace in our lives overflowing into action, not an attempt to earn God's 470 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,520 grace by these actions. 471 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:55,520 Right. 472 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:56,520 Yeah. 473 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:57,520 Yeah. 474 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:05,200 And given that, there are times when actions are not faithful and you see this with Moses, 475 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,200 right? 476 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:12,760 In your sermon where you said Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land because 477 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,680 of that moment of disobedience. 478 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:17,680 How do you see that? 479 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:18,680 Like God's action there? 480 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,000 Yeah, this was a funny question. 481 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:25,160 By the way, a lot of these questions are submitted by the members of our congregation, right? 482 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,760 And we never actually even talked about this. 483 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:27,760 No. 484 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:28,760 Right? 485 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:29,760 It just never came up in the sermon. 486 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:30,760 No, sorry. 487 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,880 No, no, it's still a good question, but maybe this needs a bit of context because I think 488 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:42,440 what the person asking is that there is this moment in the book of Numbers, right? 489 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,520 Where God says to Moses, here Moses, this is what I want you to do. 490 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,600 The people of Israel are thirsty. 491 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,720 I want you to go over to that rock and I want you to speak to that rock and water is going 492 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,720 to come pouring out of that rock, right? 493 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,680 So what does Moses do? 494 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,840 Moses goes over to the rock. 495 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:07,160 He takes his staff out and he whacks the rock twice. 496 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:13,400 And water still gushes out and everybody in the community drinks, but the Lord said to 497 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:19,720 Moses, because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, 498 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,960 you will not bring this community into the land that I give them. 499 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,160 So okay, so this is the situation, right? 500 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,520 God said, go talk to the rock and it will cause water to come out. 501 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,720 Moses goes over and whacks the rock. 502 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,400 So okay, now we've got our context. 503 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,880 So what was the question again? 504 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:43,600 It's just, you know, those moments, we've been talking so much about grace, about God 505 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,120 working through even the messy lives that we have seen. 506 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:54,080 And yet here we see like a consequence, like he's not allowed to go into the promised land 507 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,280 when he does something wrong. 508 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,000 And so I just want to get you to reflect on that. 509 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:06,000 So if you read, the Bible actually tries to answer the question that we're asking about 510 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,000 this event. 511 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:12,720 So if you actually look in Psalm, I was looking this up earlier, Psalm 106, it's in verse 512 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:13,720 32 and 33. 513 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,080 It says, by the waters of Meribah they angered the Lord and trouble came to Moses because 514 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:24,840 of them for they rebelled against the spirit of the Lord and rash words came from Moses' 515 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,440 lips. 516 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,960 So the Bible interpreting the Bible, the book of Psalms is basically saying that what happened 517 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,200 actually there in that moment was actually something of consequence, right? 518 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,680 It wasn't just like, oh, I tapped the rock instead of speaking to the rock. 519 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:49,160 There was some frustration, some anger, some rash words that God was, that Moses was speaking 520 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:55,760 out and presumably in full view of all the Israelites about God or whatever. 521 00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:01,200 We may not understand the whole thing, but it appears that it wasn't just like I made 522 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,200 a boo-boo, right? 523 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:03,440 I'm, oh, I didn't hear you right. 524 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:04,720 It wasn't just a small mistake. 525 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,680 There was something kind of significant about it. 526 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:14,280 But I mean, again, it's not 100% evident that it's a bit of a mystery, but I think it just 527 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:21,480 shows that, yeah, there are some consequences for those kind of actions where we're rash 528 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:28,840 and where we're maybe hot-headed or angry or speak angry words toward God that somehow 529 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,440 there are some consequences with that. 530 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:31,440 I don't know. 531 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,920 Is it worth the consequence to let the guy not go into the promised land? 532 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,640 It seems a bit shocking, wouldn't you agree, Kyla? 533 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,240 A little bit, yeah, yeah. 534 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,640 I mean, and the question that comes to mind for me then is like, I would want to try and 535 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:52,600 make a distinction between the consequences and forgiveness, right? 536 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,180 Because I think we can look at that and say, okay, well, God was then upset with Moses 537 00:32:57,180 --> 00:32:59,860 and he said, Moses, you'll never enter the promised land. 538 00:32:59,860 --> 00:33:04,040 And there's a temptation to think that that means that God didn't forgive Moses if Moses 539 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:05,040 ever asked for forgiveness. 540 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,360 I don't know, right? 541 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:12,000 But I think I would have to believe that knowing the nature of God, Moses received forgiveness, 542 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,760 but there was still a consequence. 543 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,040 Yes. 544 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:26,920 In fact, in fact, if so, later on in Jesus' ministry, right, there's this moment, you 545 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,520 know, there's this moment when the transfiguration, right? 546 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:40,280 Yes, in Matthew 17, he goes up the mountain and we're told that he's transfigured, he 547 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:47,720 glows in front of his disciples and we're told that there appeared before him Moses 548 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,680 and Elijah that were talking with Jesus. 549 00:33:51,680 --> 00:34:00,400 So it would seem that even though Moses was not allowed to go into the promised land, 550 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:08,120 he actually ultimately did end up in the real promised land, which is God's presence. 551 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,480 He doesn't appear to be in God's bad books, right? 552 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,160 He shows up with Elijah and speaks with Jesus in this very amazing moment on the Mount of 553 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,160 Transfiguration. 554 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,520 So I think, yes, he did find redemption. 555 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,400 The Bible seems to tell us, of course he found, you know, he's redeemed. 556 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:23,400 Right? 557 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,400 Here he is, you know? 558 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:33,880 So and it helps us to think about the natural consequences of our actions, which can still 559 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:39,880 play out, you know, and at the same time still be receiving God's grace and forgiveness, 560 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,400 know that that's not final. 561 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:42,400 Yes. 562 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,840 That all things will be restored and redeemed, even though we've messed up and set in motion 563 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,000 things that we might no longer control anymore. 564 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,160 But, you know, so we hold both intention when we're here. 565 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:55,160 Yeah. 566 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,280 There are consequences and there's forgiveness. 567 00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,280 Yes. 568 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:00,280 Yeah. 569 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:01,280 And they're both true at the same time. 570 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:02,280 Yeah, I like it. 571 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:03,280 Yeah. 572 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:04,280 Yeah, for sure. 573 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,280 Yeah. 574 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,440 So I want to switch gears a little bit. 575 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,600 And the stories of faith are really complex, right? 576 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,080 And I think the Old Testament, sometimes we don't really know how to approach it. 577 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,200 But one of the things that you said, both in the sermon about Noah, and I think you 578 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,360 mentioned it also in the sermon about Enoch, was, you know, we can ask questions about 579 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,120 did this literally happen? 580 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,720 Did people really live for hundreds of years? 581 00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:35,040 Did the whole earth really flood? 582 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,600 And I think those are really valid questions to ask and like things that people are wondering 583 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,960 about. 584 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:52,640 And so, I guess if we're not taking those stories literally, then how do we read them? 585 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,800 Does it change how you preach about them? 586 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:02,200 Well, as the preacher, I think the trick is you don't really know where everybody's at 587 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,200 in front of you. 588 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,200 Yeah. 589 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,520 That's what I find the hardest thing because I think there are people in our congregation 590 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,680 who would say, yeah, I believe that it was a literal flood. 591 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,520 I believe it was a regional flood. 592 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:15,680 I believe it was a global flood. 593 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:16,680 I don't know. 594 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,800 There would be people who would say, yes, that's what I believe. 595 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,920 And then on the other hand, you can have others say, no, I believe this was just a symbol 596 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,640 or this was a metaphor or this isn't literal truth. 597 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,880 This is theological truth that we're reading here. 598 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,800 And so, you know, you've got those people in front of you. 599 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:38,240 So I think that is a bit tricky as a preacher. 600 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:45,720 And you know, how do you make sure what you say is going to somehow not alienate half 601 00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:46,840 your audience? 602 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:52,800 I mean, you guys read your Bibles. 603 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,640 You read Genesis 1 through 12 as well. 604 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,920 How do you land when you read these texts? 605 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:04,880 I can remember very distinctly the first time that I had a conversation with someone where 606 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:10,080 they clearly believed that the Bible was, that those chapters were not literally true. 607 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:16,080 And that like shook me to the core because at that point, I don't think anybody had ever 608 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,560 told me that they were literally true or that they weren't. 609 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,000 But I think I just sort of believed that they were. 610 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,360 So when I had that first conversation and someone was like, yeah, this is all myth, 611 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,360 I was like, wait, what? 612 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:29,360 Yeah. 613 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:38,680 And so I think, I mean, my general approach to scripture is I try not to get caught up 614 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:46,120 in the details that I am much more concerned about how shall we therefore live, right? 615 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:47,120 Like what is this? 616 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:48,940 What are the values that I'm pulling from this? 617 00:37:48,940 --> 00:37:50,440 What does this tell me about God? 618 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,960 What does this tell me about the world? 619 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,320 And so did it literally happen or not? 620 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,200 But also, it's not high on my priority list of things to figure out. 621 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,280 Is that because the message is still the same? 622 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,400 So let's take the flood story, for example. 623 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:13,640 So whether you believe it was a literal flood or whether you believe that the story is not 624 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:23,120 meant to be written or read literally, is the same story that God is a just God, human 625 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:29,920 sin has consequences and God provides salvation. 626 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,480 Here's the arc, right? 627 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,160 Does it matter, I guess is the question. 628 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,160 Yeah. 629 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,480 I mean, I think that there are ways in which it could matter, right? 630 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,080 If we're asking questions about, okay, like how much human influence is in this story 631 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,520 and how much of God's influence is in this story? 632 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,680 Like those are questions we could nuance out. 633 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:53,800 But I think in general, you're right, like the values, what this is teaching us can be 634 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,280 the same regardless of how literally we take it. 635 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:58,760 What do you think, Jordana? 636 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,920 No, I would agree. 637 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:09,080 At some point, I stopped trying to get at people who had 900 year old lives. 638 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:18,280 And it's not impossible, but it's not some, I just, as you said, some of the ways in which 639 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:24,240 that would speak to a different audience might be lost on us. 640 00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:28,600 And the way I approach it is God's hands somehow is still in this. 641 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:35,960 We need to know these stories to reveal his character because then the idea is that it's 642 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,320 that character that we trust. 643 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:44,000 And so that's where I am at right now. 644 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:45,440 I don't know whether I'll... 645 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:51,880 I wonder if it's a preoccupation a bit with our particular culture and our particular 646 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:58,520 time to want to know the science of it and the geology of it. 647 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,600 Because Jesus spoke about Noah and the flood, right? 648 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:12,440 But it wasn't in a way that he was reflecting on the historicity of it in that way. 649 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:17,160 He was talking about it in the context of this is what judgment kind of looks like. 650 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,480 When the Son of Man comes, it will kind of be like in the days of Noah when everyone 651 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,400 was doing this and it just came... 652 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:30,280 So again, he's not getting into the minutia of, oh, let's talk about what kind of flood 653 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,280 it was. 654 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,840 One Peter talks about it and one Peter, he also uses it as like a... 655 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,200 He's talking about baptism and he uses it kind of as a symbol of baptism. 656 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:46,440 And so I don't know, there's a way of talking about this that is deeply true, but I don't 657 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,000 know if we have to get bogged down in the... 658 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,000 But what do you think? 659 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:58,480 The place where I get tripped up is the fact that taken too far, that argument can mythologize 660 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,680 the entire Bible, right? 661 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,920 But at some point, Jesus is historically in the world. 662 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,440 He historically rises from the dead. 663 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,560 It's not a myth. 664 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,320 And so that movement from myth into history, it's tricky. 665 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,860 It's tempting to read everything as history. 666 00:41:19,860 --> 00:41:21,400 And so that's... 667 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,740 To what extent, if Jesus is not too worried about it, it's because it's taken for granted 668 00:41:25,740 --> 00:41:28,920 that it's history rather than simply symbol. 669 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:40,600 Even if he's using the story as having resonances in a particular way, it's assumed that it 670 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,520 really happened. 671 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,560 So that's sort of where I get tripped up in that conversation. 672 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:55,640 It can go too far to the other side where I think certainly, no, Jesus, he's a historical 673 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:56,640 figure on earth. 674 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:57,640 Yes, you're right. 675 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,520 And I'm not willing to sort of... 676 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:00,680 The old slippery slope. 677 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:01,680 The old slippery slope. 678 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:02,680 Yeah. 679 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,760 And I think there was a series where you were talking about what is the Bible and how do 680 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,440 we read it and talking about these different genres in scripture, right? 681 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,700 And some of these are clearly meant to be historical books and some are clearly meant 682 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:17,840 to be poetry or narrative or letters, right? 683 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,840 And I think that's one of the things that I come back to, right? 684 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:28,040 Is like, there are some things that, yeah, are very clearly trying to tell us exactly 685 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,620 what happened and there are some things that are not, right? 686 00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:41,600 And so we can't judge the whole Bible as being either fully historical or either fully metaphorical 687 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:42,600 or mythical. 688 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,760 It is a mixture of all these different things. 689 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:46,760 Yeah. 690 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:55,520 And I think we used that Bible project definition, which was something like, the Bible is a library 691 00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:03,760 of writings that was both human and divine in origin that tells a unified story that 692 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,120 leads to Jesus, right? 693 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:06,840 That is a great definition. 694 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,280 That is a great... 695 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:11,280 Because it's a library. 696 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:12,280 What is a library? 697 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:13,800 Library's got all sorts of different kinds of books in it. 698 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:14,880 Look on the shelf over there. 699 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,880 They're not all the same... 700 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:17,880 No, they're not all the same book. 701 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,760 These ones here look like they're all the same book. 702 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,080 But yeah, it's... 703 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:31,520 So even my daughters in a car ride recently, we were talking about this and it was actually, 704 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,520 they had never thought of it or maybe never heard it explained. 705 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:40,200 And maybe it's too simplistic to say this, but there is definitely something that happens 706 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,320 in Genesis chapter 12, right? 707 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:50,360 I think Genesis 1 to 11 reads one way, like some kind of theological mythic history story, 708 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,400 kind of primeval kind of... 709 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,760 And then in Genesis 12, we meet this guy named Abraham and now we start following this family 710 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,520 story and it reads different and it sounds different. 711 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:06,680 And so, yeah, so it's really important that we learn our way around our Bible and learn 712 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:07,680 what we're reading. 713 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:08,680 Yeah. 714 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,680 Yeah, for sure. 715 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:19,400 So I mean, a final question I have was, just to bring it all together and reflecting on 716 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:26,720 some of the complex challenges that the heroes that we were chatting about have gone through. 717 00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:32,760 So often they face challenging social and political circumstances. 718 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:39,160 And as we face our own challenges today, what might it look like for God to raise up modern 719 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,160 heroes of faith? 720 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:49,560 How do we know whether God is calling us to be heroic in our faith? 721 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:58,400 Well maybe the hero that I think best exemplified this was Rahab. 722 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:04,960 Just a couple of weeks ago, we talked about Rahab and I made the point that Rahab has 723 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:14,040 to make a choice to align her life with the God of Israel instead of aligning it with 724 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:19,680 the culture of which she was a part Canaanite culture there in Jericho. 725 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,880 And that is a... 726 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,080 Yeah, that's a risky thing to do. 727 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:30,360 It feels scary, I imagine, to do that. 728 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:36,480 I'm just trying to think, even today, do I have the courage, would I have the courage 729 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:44,960 to really be willing to stand out and stand up in the eyes of people around me for something 730 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,720 that I felt was right and important, even with all these eyes looking on me or all this 731 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:51,520 kind of culture pressing in on me? 732 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,920 Can I break out of that? 733 00:45:53,920 --> 00:46:00,440 Or am I gonna constantly be pressed back into what culture says I should be? 734 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:01,440 So yeah, I don't know. 735 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:10,560 I think it requires great courage on our part and probably community too, right? 736 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,800 Because I think it's a lot easier. 737 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:17,100 Rahab, at least the way the story tells it, she was like a solo. 738 00:46:17,100 --> 00:46:20,300 She didn't have a community saying, go for it, Rahab, you can do it, right? 739 00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:22,720 You can make this change, you can make this difference. 740 00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:27,280 We kind of had to do that on our own, but we're fortunate is that we've got this great 741 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:32,040 community, this church where we support each other, we cheer each other on, we pray for 742 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:40,440 each other, and we try to challenge one another to kind of live faithfully to take those risks. 743 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,480 So I mean, community is, I think, huge in that. 744 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:54,040 I think another really key ingredient is discernment, that there are so many challenges out there 745 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,040 in the world. 746 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,940 You listen to the news, you look around, you're like, okay, there's this thing and this thing 747 00:46:57,940 --> 00:46:58,940 and this thing. 748 00:46:58,940 --> 00:47:05,180 And like, if I were to try and stand up to all of them, I would fail and would be so 749 00:47:05,180 --> 00:47:07,700 burnt out and it just wouldn't work, right? 750 00:47:07,700 --> 00:47:14,300 So there needs to be that element of what do I feel that God is calling me specifically 751 00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:18,060 to do in this moment, right? 752 00:47:18,060 --> 00:47:25,320 And then recognizing that there are still all of these other challenges and God is calling 753 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:30,300 other people to raise up and sort of take on those things. 754 00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:32,040 But we can't do it all. 755 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:38,640 We can just do whatever is in our sort of sphere of influence to do, but also then be 756 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,000 courageous and bold and faithful in that. 757 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:51,880 Yeah, and I was going to say that sort of, it pays to remind yourself who your God is, 758 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:52,880 right? 759 00:47:52,880 --> 00:48:00,920 And the hope, like constantly talking about the hope we have that the future is set for, 760 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,360 that's it. 761 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,400 It's taken care of, like God holds it. 762 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:16,960 And so that can ground you in sort of trusting when the hard times come. 763 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:17,960 Yeah. 764 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,360 In fact, how does Hebrews chapter 11 end? 765 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,240 I mean, it talks about people. 766 00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:28,160 Some people were jeered and were flogged. 767 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,000 Others were chained and put in prison, right? 768 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:37,720 They were stoned, sawed in two, put to death by the sword, mutilated, mistreated, persecuted. 769 00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:41,520 All of these things, they wandered, they lived in caves, right? 770 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:47,520 But to your point, for their faith, none of them had received what they had been promised, 771 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:48,520 right? 772 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,440 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made 773 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:54,440 perfect. 774 00:48:54,440 --> 00:49:01,120 So yeah, I think that, I mean, Kyla, you just said, you know, I can only take on so much 775 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,800 before it's just, it's too much for me. 776 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,560 But I mean, getting sawed in half is also too much, you know? 777 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,280 And having to wander and live in caves is too much. 778 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,680 So there is this part of me that like, is that, I'm not speaking of you, but are we 779 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:19,320 just chickening out in some ways by saying, ah, I can only do so much, right? 780 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:28,040 Like, is the call actually like a very sharp call to say, like, listen, look how people 781 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,320 suffered and why did they do it? 782 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,680 They did it because, like Jordana said, they knew there was this better resurrection, as 783 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:36,760 the book of Hebrews says. 784 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:42,240 There was this better thing still to come and that's kind of what enabled them to suffer 785 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:46,520 for the cause of Christ, to stick their neck out, to be a Rahab. 786 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,120 Yeah, I struggle with it, right? 787 00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:50,840 We live very comfortable lives. 788 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,320 We live very comfortable lives. 789 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,600 And I mean, I'm not in a rush to kind of be sawed in two, but I don't know. 790 00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,160 I like Daniel on this score. 791 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:06,640 Just because he does live a faithful life in the middle of a very pagan culture. 792 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:17,120 But the moment, you know, when he is, when his allegiance to God is tested, he is faithful 793 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:18,120 in that moment. 794 00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,320 Like, he's not seeking. 795 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,680 He's not inviting himself to solve all the problems of his culture around him. 796 00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,840 He's living an ordinary, like a faithful life in the way he can. 797 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,800 But when the testing comes, he'll meet it. 798 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:33,800 He's faithful to it. 799 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,000 And so I think that's the thing. 800 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,240 I find like, I don't necessarily feel like I need to go seeking to solve all the issues 801 00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:41,760 around in the culture. 802 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:47,560 So you're saying he had to decide that, no, this is a ditch to die in, right? 803 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,040 Like he had to make it to your point. 804 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:50,480 He had to discern that. 805 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:51,480 Yeah. 806 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:52,480 Okay. 807 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:53,480 Yeah. 808 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:54,480 Fair. 809 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:55,480 Yeah. 810 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:56,480 Well, thank you so much. 811 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,520 This has felt like a really rich conversation. 812 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,400 A lot of, a lot to think about for sure. 813 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:03,400 Yeah. 814 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,480 And hopefully for those who are listening, this has also felt like something that is both 815 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:09,960 encouraging and challenging for you. 816 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:10,960 Yeah. 817 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,200 I would encourage you, send us more questions. 818 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,600 Let us know what you think, what faith looks like in your life. 819 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:18,600 Yeah. 820 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:43,800 And we will see you again next week.