1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,440 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla Alonis and 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:13,180 I'm the online engagement director here at Trinity. And this week I am sitting down with 3 00:00:13,180 --> 00:00:23,160 Libby and we're going to chat about lament. And so if you don't know what lament is, that's 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,900 actually where we're going to start. Yeah, so just chatting about what is lament and 5 00:00:26,900 --> 00:00:32,920 what does it look like to sort of pray through difficult times. So Libby, thank you for joining 6 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,440 me. Well, thanks for having me. Yeah. So what would you say? How would you sort of define 7 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:44,840 lament? Well, this isn't a theological answer. There's not a lot of big words in it, but 8 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:55,440 to me it's a fully honest exchange with God. You know, being honest about what's difficult 9 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:01,420 and bringing it to Him, but also then in the end remembering who He is so that you can 10 00:01:01,420 --> 00:01:08,280 trust Him and leave it with Him. I think, you know, yeah, honesty is really, I mean, 11 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:14,640 what lament is because everybody's got something that's hard, right? And you know, if you can't 12 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:20,640 bring it to God, who can you bring it to, right? So yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think for 13 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:27,240 me when I think about like what lament is, it's really kind of a wrestling, right? Like 14 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:33,760 you said, it's that honesty, but it's an honesty within this paradigm of like life sucks and 15 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:40,000 God is good. And like, how do we bring those two things together? Yeah. And recognizing 16 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:45,760 that those two things can be true at the same time. Yeah. Right. Because it's the grander 17 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,440 plan is bigger than any of us, right? Not just those of us who are present here, but 18 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:54,700 like across time and space, right? It's a bigger, bigger plan. We know, we don't know. 19 00:01:54,700 --> 00:02:00,880 That's all we know. We don't have to understand, right? To know that we can trust Him. That's 20 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,720 one thing that's perfectly clear all the time is that He is trustworthy and faithful. And 21 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:13,480 so, I mean, we spoke about this before, but you know, it's just a deep relationship with 22 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:19,840 God, right? And that would be the same with a relationship with anyone, right? A friend, 23 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:25,140 somebody that we trust. You know, our relationship grows deeper as we go through difficult things 24 00:02:25,140 --> 00:02:30,200 together and we share those achings in our heart and those struggles, right? Trusting 25 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:35,240 that person, right? The relationship grows deeper. So, it's very important for us to 26 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,840 bring those things to God, right? To show God our heart for Him and that we see Him 27 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:45,240 for who He is, right? That faithful, loving Father, right? And it's a good exercise for 28 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:50,720 us to remind ourselves that we know who He is, you know? Because we can forget sometimes, 29 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:51,720 you know? 30 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:58,120 Yeah. And as you sort of said, lament, I think typically has at least sort of three parts 31 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:05,320 to it. So, there's this idea of protest of saying, God, this is not fair. God, this is 32 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:11,240 not okay. I don't like this thing. And then moving into a sort of petition or asking God, 33 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,000 okay, so God, like this isn't fair. What are we going to do about it? God, come and like 34 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:21,880 do a thing. And then as you said, ending in praise or trust and recognizing, yeah, God 35 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:28,760 is who God says He is. And so, like, we can leave it in God's hands. 36 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:36,080 And there's power in that, right? There's energy in that. I think right now, you know, 37 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:41,520 there's a lot of people who are struggling right now and feeling, you know, really like 38 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:46,320 it's a super dark, heavy thing that they're dealing with and they can't come through it. 39 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:55,280 But before despair, you know, get in there and tell God how it is you're feeling. And 40 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,360 when you leave it with Him, the weight of it lifts enough that you can do something 41 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:06,680 about it. You know, like if we just complain and we just wallow, it depletes our energy 42 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:11,560 and it makes us impotent. And that just, you know, then this is just a spiral, right? But 43 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,720 when we come to God with it, it changes things, right? 44 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:22,040 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, in your own life, what role has lament played in your sort of 45 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,040 spiritual life? 46 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:28,880 Honestly, it's sort of always been there and I didn't, I mean, I couldn't name it. But 47 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:37,320 I suffered the loss of my father at a really early age, seven. And a lot of really well-meaning 48 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:44,820 people said a lot of really stupid things to me about God that made me really angry 49 00:04:44,820 --> 00:04:49,840 at God. I remember people telling me, Jesus, you know, Jesus took your father home. And 50 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:57,320 I was like, this is home. I am home. And I remember shaking my fist and saying, you know, 51 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,240 Jesus, what's the deal? Like, you were up there, you're fine. You have your father. 52 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:06,460 Why are you going to take my father? Having all these arguments, but then also knowing 53 00:05:06,460 --> 00:05:13,200 that God loves me too. So, it's a wrestling. There's been a wrestling with that my whole 54 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:21,320 life, right? Knowing that suffering is happening and God is in it. You know, not causing it, 55 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:28,800 but in it with me, right? And I have to say, like, through that whole time growing up without 56 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:36,840 my dad, I always had this sense that I wasn't alone, right? And I've really embraced the 57 00:05:36,840 --> 00:05:45,920 idea of God as father, right? And I was still mad. All that was true all at the same time, 58 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:51,000 you know? But I was still really angry, you know? But, you know, God comes through and 59 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:57,800 God provides. And I was taken care of, you know? And then when I met my husband, I met 60 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:03,920 my father-in-law who is an amazing man. And, you know, and I have a dad now, like a dad 61 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:10,440 that I can wrap my arms around and hug too, you know? But I never saw that coming. That 62 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,840 was forever away as a little kid. 63 00:06:12,840 --> 00:06:18,080 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think I would say a sort of similar thing that like before I 64 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,480 even knew the word lament that it just sort of is part of, like you said, it's part of 65 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,040 having a relationship with anyone, right? And so naturally, I think it becomes part 66 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:35,760 of our relationship with God. Yeah, and so I can remember, like I'm a journaler. I write 67 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,840 things down. And so like I can go back and look through my like teenage journals at like 68 00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:48,040 all of the like angry ramblings at God and like all of these like terrible poetry and 69 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,320 like all of these things. It's like, I am not okay right now, God. And like, what are 70 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:53,320 you doing about it? 71 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:54,320 Yeah. 72 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:55,320 You know? 73 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:01,840 Yeah, you have that? I did that, but I don't have it. I wish I did. I'd love to go back 74 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:02,840 and see. 75 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:11,860 Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting for me to think about like, yeah, that this isn't something 76 00:07:11,860 --> 00:07:19,200 that is modeled super well in churches, right? It's something that we've both said sort of 77 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:26,640 came naturally to us. But at a certain point, we sort of come to realize, oh, well, nobody 78 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:32,600 else around me is doing this. Right? And then it becomes this like weird, what do I do with 79 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:33,600 it sort of thing? 80 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,580 Yeah, it's like a polite thing where we behave in front of each other and then nobody thinks 81 00:07:37,580 --> 00:07:41,520 anybody does. You know what I mean? Like it creates this false idea that it's totally 82 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:45,720 normal to just be happy all the time. We should always be happy all the time. Like, that's 83 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:51,760 weird. Right? That's not normal. Yeah. I mean, we have a really hard time, I think, I mean, 84 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:57,880 even as society, right? I think there was this book I was reading a few months ago and 85 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:06,440 I was just like, aha, right? Where this author was just talking about in society now, like, 86 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:14,500 we're not allowed to be sad. We've lost the rhythms of emotion where there's a season 87 00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:22,600 for sadness, there's a time for that and to go through it, not avoid it, not pretend it's 88 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:28,920 not there. Right? But now I think, you know, I think a lot of the cause for depression 89 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,340 and stuff with everybody is that we don't get to be sad without it being like it's wrong 90 00:08:33,340 --> 00:08:38,520 to be sad. Like, I can't think of anything more right than to be sad. When something 91 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:44,400 is wrong, you can be sad. Yeah. You know, and you can know that, you know, God has a 92 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,660 plan and that God has you. You don't have to like it. Like, you don't have to enjoy 93 00:08:48,660 --> 00:08:53,280 it while it's happening and you're sad. You're sad. You know, and when you're sad, God is 94 00:08:53,280 --> 00:09:02,040 sad for you. Like, he loves you so much. The thought that you have to pretend to be happy 95 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:09,880 with him is a really dangerous thought. Right? Because you're not seeing him for who he is. 96 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,280 You know, and I think, when I talk about what makes God angry, I think that would make God 97 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:23,280 angry. You know, this idea that he can't handle it. Right. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah. Which like 98 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,400 makes me think of something else that I read recently, which is that like lament is actually 99 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:33,100 an act of faith. Right? That without faith, we can't really lament because to lament is 100 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:38,520 to say, to believe at least that God is listening. Maybe God isn't going to do what I want God 101 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:45,840 to do, but God at least hears me and is worth venting to. Right? And so lament is an act 102 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:54,500 of faith. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's important. And I think for me, one of the first places 103 00:09:54,500 --> 00:10:01,600 that I started to like hear lament as a word and like think about it as a spiritual practice 104 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:09,900 was in a community of folks working towards like climate justice and ecological justice. 105 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:17,560 And in those spaces of justice work and advocacy, it's so easy to get focused on the like doing 106 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:22,480 of the thing and like, okay, we need to push for the next thing. But you're constantly 107 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:28,680 faced with disappointment. You're constantly faced with like, this is hard. Yeah. And you 108 00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:34,300 don't win every battle. And so like lament is actually what like keeps you human. Yeah. 109 00:10:34,300 --> 00:10:39,480 In those spaces. Right. Yeah. And probably gives you the energy to keep going. Exactly. 110 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:45,000 Yeah. Yeah. This is a God who also cares about these things. This is God who's also, you 111 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:53,360 know, weeping for the state of the earth. I'm not alone here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when 112 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:59,440 you think about lament, what are some of the things that you think lament offers to the 113 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:06,220 church? Why is this important? Oh, I think it's usually important. It's hard to do. Sure. 114 00:11:06,220 --> 00:11:11,960 It's hard to get people to want to do. Sure. Everybody wants to sing about the happy things, 115 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,080 right? About how it's worked out. Yeah. Right. They want to sing about all the wonderful 116 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:22,680 things that God has done. Right. And that's good. Right. Because that's true. But not 117 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:29,960 in the context of there's something we need you to do. Right. To cry out in lament and 118 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:39,080 say something's wrong, God. Yeah. We need you. And then because you do these things, 119 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,520 because you can do these things, because only you can do these things. You know, I think 120 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:50,680 people are afraid to do that sad thing together. Right. Lament is sort of seem to be like a 121 00:11:50,680 --> 00:12:00,680 very private thing. But I think it would be incredible if we could lament as a larger 122 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:05,880 group. You know, if we and it would take time, right? Just like any relationship takes time 123 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,540 to build that comfort with each other, right? Yeah. But you know, just like we get support 124 00:12:10,540 --> 00:12:13,920 and worship with each other when we're talking about all the reminding ourselves of the goodness 125 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:21,240 of God and of how, you know, he can do anything. There's nothing he can't do. Yeah. And that 126 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:27,440 he loves us and he's on our side. But that's good that we remind each other of that. But 127 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:37,200 we can also, you know, in weeping together in lament, we can also just by standing shoulder 128 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:42,720 to shoulder while we do that, just acknowledging that you're not the only one who knows that 129 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:48,680 God is with you, but it's not okay. It's that validation that we bring to each other when 130 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:55,240 we do communal things. Right. You know, so lament is really important. It's really important 131 00:12:55,240 --> 00:13:01,680 for us to acknowledge, you know, that there are, it is not okay, right out there. Yeah. 132 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:09,120 And it's not been okay for a real long time. Yeah. And, you know, we can't put blinders 133 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,080 on or we won't be able to do anything about it, you know, because we have a role as his 134 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:18,200 hands and feet. And if we, if we keep, you know, staving off our own sadness and saying, 135 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,060 no, no, no, no, no, we won't be able to see anybody else's either. And we won't be able 136 00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:27,520 to get involved in and do anything about it or lift a finger or give a shoulder. Right. 137 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:33,360 Right. It's just, you know, it's that healthy. We need to go through a range of emotions, 138 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,600 right? Yeah. You know, we need to celebrate together. We need to grieve together. We need 139 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:44,440 to, you know, do life together. Right. And, and so that's everything. That's all the ugly 140 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,480 parts and all the pretty parts and, you know, all the uncomfortable bits. And we need to 141 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,920 lean into that together. And that's, you know, that's, that's a challenging thing. I'm not 142 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,400 going to pretend that that's an easy thing to do, but, but I think that needs to be the 143 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:03,880 goal for us as we interact with each other as brothers and sisters in Christ is, is just, 144 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,680 let's lean into that uncomfortable bit together here for a minute. Let's talk about that. 145 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:14,200 You know, what, you know, and, and pray about it and it bring, you know, bring God in, invite 146 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:21,720 him in. He's there anyway. Invite him in and hear what he has to say. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. 147 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:29,520 So, yeah, no, I think that, yeah, in, in society in general, but also in the church in particular, 148 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:35,720 we're so easy to be happy all the time. And we want, I think, I wonder if part of it comes 149 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:42,440 from this idea that like, well, you know, it's not very attractive to be sad. Oh yeah. 150 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,400 Right. Like we want people to think this is a great place to be. And so if we're all sad 151 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,440 all the time, people aren't going to want to come in, but actually, I think the opposite 152 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:57,080 is probably true. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think that there are spaces where there are, 153 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:03,000 there are people who are looking for spaces to be sad with other people. Yeah. Well, it's 154 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:08,400 like a reality check, you know, the sanctuary should be a reality check as far as like, 155 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,280 okay guys, remember God, right? Like I know it's all that noise is going on out there 156 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:18,920 and we come together into the sanctuary to just go, right, okay. Let's, let's realign 157 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:24,640 our perspective here. Let's remember, you know, and, and, you know, the truth part of 158 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:33,400 worshiping in spirit and truth requires that if we are, people are sad, it's a thing. Yeah. 159 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:38,480 And they're going to be, and there's always somebody, you know, there's always somebody, 160 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:43,320 you know, even when we're having like, you know, Easter Sunday celebration, right? It's 161 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:51,080 like everybody is just on 11. They're super charged and super excited and you know, there's 162 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:58,200 somebody in there who cannot muster up the energy to let the words come out of their 163 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:06,000 mouth of celebration. Yeah. But being in that room, yeah, will help them. And their worship 164 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,400 is just putting their body in that space. Yep. Right? Their act of faith is putting 165 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,960 their body in that space where this adoration of God is happening and where they're going 166 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,300 to be reminded all the things they need to be reminded and that they're not the only 167 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:25,280 one who believes it. It might help them hold on a little tighter and kind of through, right? 168 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,000 I think we need to just acknowledge the fact that that's the case for all of us when we're 169 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,280 in there and when we're everywhere, right? Like that everyone is going through something 170 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:40,240 and we're just all in this sort of together, right? We're all at different spots and we're 171 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:47,520 all, you know, but we've all come together to recognize that we need God and He is here 172 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:54,520 with us. Yeah. And so we're here for each other in turn, right? For Him as an act of 173 00:16:54,520 --> 00:17:03,320 love toward Him. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And in that way, actually, I think like churches 174 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:09,960 and faith communities have something really powerful to say to the wider culture, right? 175 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:16,560 That like we don't have it all together, but nobody has it all together. But at least we're 176 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:23,080 like trying to do it together. Yeah. Ideally. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like maybe you look 177 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,240 around our congregation on a Sunday morning and you're like, what do any of these people 178 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:35,600 have in common? Except that like we're trying to figure this all out together. Yeah. And 179 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:41,600 if we're not figuring all of life out together, right? We're just figuring out the nice shiny 180 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:49,600 happy bits. And like, what are we doing? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the messy stuff we need help 181 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,320 with, right? It's the messy stuff we don't want to go through alone. I mean, I love that 182 00:17:54,320 --> 00:18:03,400 this church has like, has Stephen ministers, right? That their whole, you know, modus operandi 183 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:08,720 is just walking through the hard part. They're just there to walk through the hard part. 184 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:14,240 That's their, they're not, you know, they're not getting, you know, any outside benefit 185 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,560 other than the benefit of walking with someone through something. They're knowing that you're 186 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:24,160 there for them, right? And like, I love that we have that ministry at our church, right? 187 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:30,840 And that there's so many people, you know, being trained up in that, right? To walk through, 188 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:36,560 not around, not over, not under, and I was like, you know, but to go through and just 189 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,960 be a support. It's a good model, you know? It'd be good if everybody actually, I remember 190 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:46,560 when I first heard about the ministry, I was like, that sounds like something we should, 191 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,880 everybody should do. We should all take the training. It's extensive training. They go 192 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,240 through a lot to do, you know, there's a lot of training, but what a beautiful thing. What 193 00:18:55,240 --> 00:19:00,360 a beautiful ministry, right? To take the time out of your life to give to someone you know 194 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:07,200 is suffering, to carve out that time and sit in it with them. Right? I love that, right? 195 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,880 Because a lot of people, like when they grieve, well, you've talked about too, and so have 196 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,000 I, this experience of people just want to say something to stop it. If you're hurting 197 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:20,120 and they just want to throw out some platitude or something, because they don't want to actually 198 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:26,120 sit in the uncomfortable with you. They just want to stop it, you know? It's so nice to 199 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:31,400 see a whole group of people that want to just actually get down in the dirt and sit there 200 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,560 with you until you're ready to get up. And then they'll stand up and they'll give you 201 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:41,480 their hand and they'll lift you up too. You know, like it's a beautiful thing, you know? 202 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:49,520 And yeah, I think lament plays such a huge role in our lives as Christians, you know, 203 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:56,360 because it just brings us closer to Christ. Everything we suffer brings us closer to Christ. 204 00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,720 And it can bring us closer to one another too, right? And I mean, ultimately that's 205 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:06,320 what we want, right? It's all about relationship and connecting and to help us grow and to 206 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:12,960 help us be more impactful and to bring more people into relationship with Jesus, to radiate 207 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:21,120 that life in Christ, right? That is so attractive to the hurting person. You got to be willing 208 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:30,280 to go in there to the hurting bit to get them. 209 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:37,320 So there's almost these like two ways of doing lament or two sort of modes that we need to 210 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,880 do it in, which is like sort of what you were just talking about with the Stephen ministers, 211 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:46,120 that it's a sort of individual personal thing, either you and God or you and maybe one other 212 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:54,520 person. But then there's also like corporate lament. And so curious, your thoughts as a 213 00:20:54,520 --> 00:21:01,560 worship leader, how do we bring in a corporate sense of lament and like, what does that even 214 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,200 look like? 215 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:11,360 It's so hard because people don't want to do that with other people. It's like I said, 216 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:18,640 right? Everybody, we want to sing about that, but we don't want to sing about the really 217 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:24,400 hard stuff. Like we don't want our eyes to leak in front of other people, right? No, 218 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,040 not me personally, because obviously I have no issue with that. Everyone's seen me doing 219 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:33,400 that. But I think, you know, we start, like I try to bring that in sometimes when, you 220 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,800 know, when I can sense, you know, we're going to be talking about something that's going 221 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,520 to be difficult for people. You know, sometimes I'll take the time in the offertory song and 222 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:47,360 I'll, you know, I'll purposely choose a song that it's going to do that. We're going to 223 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:52,600 cry. Okay. I'm not going to make you sing while you cry. You can sit while you cry because 224 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:58,240 we're not quite there yet. I don't think, but I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to just 225 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:05,120 model an authenticity in worship. That's sort of our thing. That's what we try to do. Just 226 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:10,920 get up there and actually worship in front of everybody. Let them see, you know, leave 227 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:17,440 it all on the altar and let them see that it's safe. Right? You know, go first in the 228 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:23,360 vulnerability. And, and I think we've had some success. Success is a gross word for 229 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:29,560 it, but we've had some, you know, we've reached people that way. Like it's helped people to 230 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:37,360 be able to cry together, you know, to be able to, to let it out and to know that it's a 231 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:41,920 safe place. I mean, that's a, it's a huge, there's a huge difference, right? When, when 232 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:49,320 all of a sudden for you, the sanctuary becomes a safe place. That's a whole other level than 233 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,560 what you're able to get out of our time together in there on a Sunday morning. Right? When 234 00:22:53,560 --> 00:23:00,240 you're able to actually like let go and trust and feel safe, you know, that's huge. Right? 235 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,520 And that's, and that's a sign of that. Right? When you're able to sort of feel all the feelings, 236 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,480 even the uncomfortable ones in that space and just allow the Holy Spirit to do what 237 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:17,240 only he can do. Right? So, so yeah, I mean, that's, that's how I try to bring it in. I 238 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:22,200 love for us to get to the point. And I know this might sound weird, but I would love for 239 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:30,080 us to be able to get to the point where we could, as a congregation, cry, sing an ugly 240 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:38,560 cry. Like, and you know, it will not sound good, but it will be beautiful. Like nothing 241 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:45,440 else. You know, like it, there's something so beautiful about that, about sharing and 242 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:51,920 acknowledging the pain in the room, but with hope. Like it's not, it's not just getting 243 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,840 in there and crying. It's, it's knowing, okay, we're all, look at all of us. We are all acknowledging 244 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:02,560 the truth of what we're, you know, suffering through here, but we all have that hope. Yeah. 245 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:07,360 And we all know who God is in the midst of all of this suffering. We know who God is 246 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:15,280 and you look around and there's like 300 other people who are feeling just like you. Yeah. 247 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:22,680 And God is still there. You know, it strengthens you. Yeah. You know? So, I mean, I hope at 248 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,240 some point we can, we can get there and, and maybe we do. I mean, we've got four weeks 249 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,560 of this series. That doesn't seem like a very long time, but I mean, just over, just over 250 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,000 time, right? The more we learn and the more we go through together, I mean, I think, you 251 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:44,680 know, the next little while could potentially serve as a, as a real push toward us, you 252 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:51,240 know, experiencing that together, you know? And, but leaving room for everybody to enter 253 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,880 into it at where they're at. Sure. You know, because it, because that's part of it being 254 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:01,880 safe too. We wouldn't want to push anybody further than they're ready in the group. And 255 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,880 so, so we're like, we're all on a journey there. So we need to leave room and be respectful 256 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:11,880 in that regard too. But, but yeah, I mean, yeah, you know, we're not going to force them 257 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:17,680 all to cry. Well, you know, but you know, you don't, you don't, I mean, sometimes in 258 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,240 worship you have to be careful because as a worship leader, you have to be careful that 259 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:28,200 you don't, you don't want to manipulate people. Sure. Right? Like that's not the goal. You 260 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,300 know, you want to open something up, maybe, you know, I choose songs that maybe say difficult 261 00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:39,680 things in a new way. Sure. You know, that might help someone to see it. And that, and 262 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,640 that's going to maybe cause an emotional reaction, but that's just, that's just something that 263 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:49,160 happens. That's a, that's like a consequence of it. But the idea is just to help you open, 264 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,440 to help you trust, right? It's not a manipulation. No. You know, so everybody will hear that 265 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,800 differently. Sure. There's room. It's, you know, I'm not trying, don't, don't come in 266 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:04,200 and cry because you think you have to. That's, please don't do that. You know, but also don't 267 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,560 come in and pretend you're okay because you think you have to. Like, I want to say that 268 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:13,480 too as a worship leader, you know, just come as you are. That's all, that's all he requires. 269 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:19,560 Come as you are, you know, because, you know, God is arranging that time in there together, 270 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,840 right? We're all, as we prepare, he's all those little bits and he's calling everyone 271 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,460 to be there and every single person in there is not there by accident. Yeah. And your experience 272 00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:34,320 is meant to be with you in that space. Bring it. Bring all of you to the space. Right? 273 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:40,760 That's our job. And then God will do what God does. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And I think for 274 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:46,840 me, like when I think about my experiences of lament and of hard conversations with God, 275 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:53,000 like music has often been central to that for me. I think partly because music just 276 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,240 like speaks to your brain and body in a different way. Right? And like you said, it allows you 277 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:07,440 to hear the difficult things in a new way, in a way that like preaching doesn't necessarily 278 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:13,480 get at my heart in the same way that maybe it gets at someone else's heart. But yeah, 279 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,720 so in that way, like having all of the parts of the service, like you just said, can sort 280 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:24,640 of facilitate this corporate experience that works differently on different people, but 281 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:33,680 hopefully unifies us all in something. Yeah. Yeah. So if folks are listening and they're 282 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,880 intrigued and thinking, well, okay, maybe lament is a good thing. Like how do they get 283 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:53,720 started? Oh my. I don't have a good answer. I just say just, just go for it. Like, I mean, 284 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,360 because for me, it was such a, just a natural thing for a little kid to do. Right? Little 285 00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:08,680 kids are so just innately honest and they just do. Right. But you know, I say, get alone, 286 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:16,780 you know, and, and sit in silence for a little while. That's super uncomfortable. Right? 287 00:28:16,780 --> 00:28:21,440 You think you have nothing to lament about. Sit, sit quiet and don't have your phone. 288 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,760 Don't have anything there to distract you. Sit in, sit in, sit in the silence for a little 289 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:31,320 bit. And I'm sure that, you know, whatever, whatever it is that you're really struggling 290 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:39,960 with, just tell God, tell him you don't, you don't like this. You know, and remind yourself 291 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,280 of his promises. Remind yourself that he, you know, you know, that, that he's, he's 292 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,600 there, but he doesn't feel like he's there. You know, it's okay to say that. It's okay. 293 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,000 You know, everybody says that, you know, I'm, you know, you're, you're going to be glorified 294 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,360 in this, but, but you're going to be glorified anyway. Aren't you? Why do I have to go through 295 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:04,280 this? Why is this going to be like, and just let it out. Let it out. Right. Like God, God 296 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:12,280 is so much bigger. Like it's not even close. He's so much bigger than everything that's 297 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:20,200 going on. And he's in it with you. Right. Right. And he knows anyway, right? We were 298 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,080 told right? The Holy Spirit. He knows anyway, say it out loud. So, you know, you told him. 299 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:33,360 Right. Like, so that you can know that you let it out, you know, but then always remember 300 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:40,560 and give thanks for everything else. Right. I mean, I sat this afternoon or this morning, 301 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,120 I was talking with my brother and we're talking about lament because I was saying, I'm going 302 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,200 to talk about this. And I was saying how you don't just stop at complaining. Like lament 303 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,080 is not just complaining to God. It's not venting at God. And then that's it. Right. That doesn't 304 00:29:54,080 --> 00:30:00,240 do you any good. Right. Really. And he was saying, yeah, right. Like, like you, you've 305 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,600 got to remember and give thanks then. Right. You end with giving thanks to God for, for 306 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,680 who he is and for all that he's done. And he started listing all my things. And I was 307 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:19,160 like, yeah. And he just kept going. And I was like, right. Right. Yeah. Maybe my list 308 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,560 wasn't that long when I prayed my prayer, but yeah, you're right. All those things too. 309 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:28,080 Right. Like there's so many things I've started thinking about it right. That we have to thank 310 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:33,520 God for. And just make sure you end there. Make sure you get back to that and end there 311 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:40,840 so that you're not stuck. You know, you don't want to get stuck in it. Yeah. You need to 312 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:46,080 remember, right. All the things he's done before he'll do again. He'll, you know, he's 313 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:51,560 been there for you before, you know, you never saw the answer coming. And then there it was. 314 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:57,040 Right. It's happened before and he'll do it again. Yeah. Take a deep breath, leave it 315 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:04,200 at his feet and then go do whatever you can do about it. Right. Right. Yeah. Just, you 316 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:10,720 know, just, just try it. Right. Just speak the words out. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's 317 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,400 the only place I, I mean, that's what I can think to start. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. 318 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:22,160 Yeah. I think it, in some ways it's as simple as just doing it. Yeah. You know, lament. 319 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:27,200 It's this like word that I think you said before that sounds mystical. Yeah. It feels 320 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,720 really mystical, but it's like, it's actually just like having a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. 321 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:40,640 Yeah. Yeah. And I think I would add to that, that like lament isn't like a new thing, right? 322 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:46,600 Like lament is found all over scripture, right? And so like, if you're struggling to figure 323 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:52,400 out like, okay, what do I say? Or like, how does this work? Just like read your Bible. 324 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:57,600 There's a whole book called Lamentations. That's just like five chapters of Jeremiah 325 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:04,840 complaining to God about things. So like pick that up. Do that. Yeah. And if you're looking 326 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,760 for permission, there's the shortest verse ever, right? Jesus wept. Yeah. He modeled 327 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:20,120 it for us. You can weep too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the Psalms, like Rob did this whole series 328 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,800 this summer on the Psalms. And a lot of the Psalms are like, you know, happy and like 329 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,680 praise God for this thing. But like, yeah, like half of them are like, God, this actually 330 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,720 sucks. And like some of them are really, really graphic and like, wow, wow. Expressing a lot 331 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,740 of anger and rage, right? Like they're like, wow. Yeah. There's one about bashing heads 332 00:32:38,740 --> 00:32:48,440 on a rock and like, whoa, if that's okay, surely, you know, I can discuss my discomfort 333 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:56,400 with my current situation. Yeah. Yeah. So just like pick up your Bible. Yeah. Flip it 334 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:02,520 open. There's somebody who's upset about something. Yeah. Type into Google imprecatory Psalms. 335 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,400 You'll get lots of help. Yeah. Right. It's easy to know which ones to look at and pray 336 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:15,360 them out. Yeah, for sure. They're a good template. Yeah, definitely. Good. Well, thank you so 337 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:23,440 much, Libby. This has been a really good conversation. Yeah. And just really helpful reminder that 338 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:30,080 we can be honest. Yes. Yes. With God and with each other. Yeah. And that actually that that's 339 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:36,200 that's human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. And thank you 340 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:41,560 for tuning into this episode of Trinity Talks. I hope that you have found something helpful 341 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:49,620 in this. And yeah, you can walk away this week feeling more able to share your pain 342 00:33:49,620 --> 00:33:56,240 and your hurt and your anger, hopefully with another person, but at least with God. And 343 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,240 we'll see you next week.