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Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of Trinity Talks. My name is Kyla Lones and

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I'm the online engagement director here at Trinity.

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And I'm Jordana Lobo-Pierras. I'm a member here at Trinity.

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And my name's Rob Hirkmans, and I am the pastor here at Trinity Streetsville.

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So this week we're sitting down to wrap up our sermon series Around the Table, where

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we've been looking at the different meals that Jesus shared during his time on earth

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with a special focus on themes of hospitality.

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And so I thought it would be great to sit down with Rob, who's been preaching us through

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this sermon series, and yeah, just ask some questions, get to know a little bit more about

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some of the themes that we've been talking about, some of the stories, and maybe some

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questions from folks in our congregation about things that you've been preaching on.

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So Rob, first, I just want to know, why did you decide to preach a sermon series on the

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meals that Jesus ate?

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Yes. So that's a good question. I think it probably starts by realizing that this was

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obviously for Jesus, eating meals with people was like a primary strategy for enacting and

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unfolding the kingdom of God. So I think it's interesting that yes, it's something that

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Jesus did a lot of. I mean, he was always eating and drinking with people. He was accused

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of being a glutton and a drunkard, blah, blah, blah. But obviously Jesus was only one person,

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and so Jesus could only ever be at one table at one time. But we, as the church today,

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are the body of Christ. And so I think we believe, I hope we believe that Jesus' spirit

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lives in us. And so in many ways, this is why we can do greater things than Jesus ever

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did is because we can actually, as the church, as the body of Christ, be at many, many tables

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at the same time and be unfolding the kingdom in greater ways in the sense that I think

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that the ministry that Jesus established, the kind of pattern he set for us is one that

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we ought to be taking up as a church. And so I don't think the mission hasn't changed

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and the method maybe hasn't changed either. So I think that's one of the big reasons why

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I thought it would be... I mean, another reason is because I think this is like, it's really,

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really easy. This is really easy to do, right? Because I think a lot of people in our church,

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I don't know about you guys, but might struggle with the idea like, oh, how do I do mission?

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I don't know how to do this. This is hard. This is difficult. I don't have a theological

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degree. I didn't go to Bible college. No, but you can invite someone to Tim Hortons

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and have a coffee with them and have something like that. It's very easy. It's accessible

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for every one of us to do. And yeah, I think also, I think we might not realize how powerful

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hospitality can be. There's... I can't remember who it was that said it. Alan Hirsch. Alan

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Hirsch said once, he said that if every Christian family were to open up their homes like once

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a week and invite people in who maybe didn't know Jesus or didn't know anything about the

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church, he said we would very quickly eat and drink our way into the kingdom of God.

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It's a powerful way. And if all Christians were to adopt this, it would be, I think it

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would be revolutionary. It would make a real difference in the world. I don't know, maybe

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I'm overselling it. But one of the books I read in preparation for this sermon was called

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The Hospitality. The subtitle was The Simplest Way to Change the World. So yeah, I think

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it's all those things. I don't know. But did it resonate with you to be talking about something

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as simple as opening our homes up and eating and drinking with other people? Did that

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connect you think with people? Yeah, I think it did. I think I was... Through

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the series, I began to reflect on the ways and when I actually end up inviting people

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in and how often I tend to put it off to busyness and recognizing that when I do, it is a wonderfully

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special time with people. You get to know your neighbors, you get to spend time with

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friends. And it's not just a chance, a small meeting. It's always more relaxed and it feels

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like you're sharing your life a little more when you're gathering around the table. So

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definitely it resonated as to why it's... Jesus walked and talked and just talked outside

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so often, but it's the meals that felt intimate, right? And that's the difference between sort

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of chance meetings, say, or even teaching somewhere and between actually inviting somebody

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a little more into your life. So it did resonate. I began to think through just how important

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it was then for Jesus to keep being invited to homes and provide food where sometimes

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to eat together. Yeah. I mean, we know this, I guess, but hospital

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and hospitality share the same root word, right? And so there's the sense in which these

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meals that we share are actually, they have the potential to heal our world, to heal broken

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people, to heal broken relationships. It's like your home becomes a hospital, right?

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And someone once said your dining room table becomes a surgery table or something like

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this. This is kind of where God can do his restoring and healing work in people's lives.

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I know for all that I just said that it's actually so simple, everyone can do it. It's

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actually hard at the same time. I know I struggle because there's always that risk element of

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opening up your home too, right? So there's a tension there.

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Yeah. So it reminds me of the Trinity talks I did last week where I sat down with Nishanth

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and Rachel and talked about their experience of hospitality together. And they both said,

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at first that feels really daunting. It can feel awkward. It can feel like you don't really

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know what to expect. But they also both came out of it saying we feel more like family.

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We feel more like we're connected not just to each other, but to the wider Trinity family

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as well. So I think there is a sense in which it is simple, but not necessarily easy.

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That's right. But also so worthwhile.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

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So I mean, your series consistently talked about it being a priority for Jesus, right?

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And then it was for the early church as well. So why isn't it a priority? In what ways can

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we make it more of a priority for our churches today?

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Yeah. We were talking before about, you know, do churches see hospitality as a priority?

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And perhaps, you know, 2000 years ago when there were no church buildings and people

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met in each other's homes, then church automatically overlapped with this whole idea of hospitality.

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When you were doing church, you were necessarily opening up your home, right? So that was both

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were happening at the same time. So now we're in a very different situation. We have these

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big church buildings. And so I think that maybe if I understood the question, right,

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the question might be, well, if we've got church buildings and we, you know, do we still

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need to be meeting in people's homes? I don't know. But I think that anyone who's been around

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the church for a while knows just how important like making personal connections are to anybody

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feeling at home in a church. I mean, one of the things that we have new folks coming through

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our doors each and every week here at Trinity, and we know, we know that if they do not make

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a personal connection with someone, they don't make a friend or have a conversation or if

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they don't, then, you know, maybe they'll come back two weeks or maybe they'll come

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back three weeks. But ultimately in even average sized churches, they'll disappear. They'll

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disappear. And I mean, Larry Osborne wrote this book called Sticky Church. And the whole

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idea of is how do you increase the stickiness of your church so that when people come, they

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actually stick around and they stay. And the answer is again and again, you have to get

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people meeting in smaller groups in more intimate settings. Because in a big church, you can

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just, I don't know, you can just feel like a number. And it doesn't really matter how

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wide your front doors are and how many people are streaming in the front door. If your back

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door is wide open and everyone's just walking out again, in the end, it's what, you know,

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that's the point. So yeah, so I would actually for that reason say that it should be a priority

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today still, even though we have church buildings, it actually needs to be a priority. In fact,

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I think lots of churches do make it a priority because this is well known.

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Yeah. Yeah. They may not use the word hospitality, but they're opening up their homes to small

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groups. You know, there are so many different ways in which people are connecting both within

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the building and outside, outside of the service. You're recreating some of the conditions of

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the early church in different ways here without necessarily calling it church. Right?

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Yep. Absolutely. Yeah.

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So one of the things that is central, especially to every service here at Trinity and to a

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lot of churches is the communion table. It's really this moment where we extend a kind

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of hospitality, right? That is first extended to us by Christ. But it's also obviously a

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bit bigger than just a meal and just hospitality, that it's something that has a significance.

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And so in scripture, in first Corinthians, Paul talks, spends some time talking about

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communion, how important it is that we take it in a worthy manner, that it's something

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that we take seriously. But I guess at Trinity, we don't spend a lot of time necessarily talking

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about that specific aspect of communion. You don't stand up there and issue an invitation

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to take this seriously. Right. Right.

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So what does that look like for Trinity? Why don't we do that? Is there another way that

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we're doing something similar? So first of all, I'm actually really glad

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that the meal, Trinity's, that we do celebrate communion every week, especially during a

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series like this. It just felt like the perfect culmination of what we were talking about

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to just continually be gathering around a table. And I know different churches have

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different traditions and some do communion once a month or once a quarter or something

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like that. Yeah. But I think I really felt glad as we went through this series that communion,

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the Lord's Supper is so central to the life of Trinity. Now, so I think the question that

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you were kind of asking was like, though we do this, it's not the same thing as just a

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meal. Right? So is the question like, why are we not being more strict?

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Yeah. Why don't we have a more sort of somber approach to it? Or if this is something that's

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really central, why issue an open invitation? Right. Okay. So this is the theology of Holy

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Communion, I guess, whether, yeah. So actually that's a good point. In fact, this past summer

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we had a clergy who was filling in for me, great person, but just had come from a slightly

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different tradition. And when it came time for communion, I believe this person did issue

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kind of a more strict, say, you know, listen, if you want to come to the table, you need

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to examine your heart, you need to, don't eat or drink unworthily of the bread and the

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wine, you know, make sure that you're in the right place spiritually before you come up

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here. And I think people were a little bit, oh, we're not used to hearing that. Usually

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Rob's like, Hey, everyone is welcome to come to this table. And I want to say, I appreciate

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there's all different perspectives on this out there. And they stem from what you were

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referencing in 1 Corinthians chapter 11, right? I think this is a really, this is a really,

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really good conversation to have. But actually, maybe what I could ask you is that when you

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hear Paul say things like examine yourself and make sure you're not eating of this in

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an unworthy way, what do you think people think he means? What does it mean to eat of

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this unworthily? What is he warning against in the minds of most of the people that are

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there?

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Yeah, I think so for me in traditions where I grew up, it meant at the very least that

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there's some sort of opportunity for confession before you come to communion, which is something

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that we do practice here at Trinity. That yeah, you're not coming up and partaking of

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communion knowing that you are holding on to some sort of sin, knowing that you're coming

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to this with just an unrepentant heart.

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Right. Yeah. Kind of that self-examination thing.

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Yeah. And that can tie to what communion has traditionally been meant to symbolize as well

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if it is Jesus' death and a broken body. Then you are asking people into a more contemplative

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space to think about it, why he came, what he's achieved through that process. And then

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communion becomes a little bit, in some traditions, at least the one I grew up in, an embodiment

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of that redemption story. And so I think some of the motive behind questions like that is

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that redemption story as much as it is open to all being articulated so that we're not

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simply thinking this is a celebration of food together. It's more than that. There is quite

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a deep sort of association with what Christ has achieved through this process. And so

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that, I think, is part of where the question might come from as well.

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Yes. I think you're right. I think what you've shared is probably what most people think

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when they hear that admonition from Paul. It is actually interesting to look back and

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see what was the thing that he was warning against. And I think when we understand that,

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it might change how we feel about what they sometimes call putting a fence around the

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table, making sure. Because if you look in 1 Corinthians 11, he says, beginning at verse

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17, he says, there's something I got to talk to you about that I do not support what you're

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doing. I don't commend you for this. He says, I hear that when you're coming together that

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there's divisions and there's factions among you. And then maybe that meant that he had

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heard that some people were, maybe there was different divisions, socioeconomic divisions.

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Maybe they were like, sometimes one group of people might have said, we take our lead

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from this apostle or we take our lead from this, whatever. There might have been various

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divisions. But then he goes on to say that when you come together, it's not really that

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you're eating the Lord's supper. When the time comes to eat, each of you just goes ahead

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with your own supper. And so one goes hungry and another becomes drunk and so on. So what

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he's railing against here is he's saying that, listen, you get together for communion. Now

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back then they didn't do communion like we did. It wasn't a little piece of bread. It

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wasn't a little glass of wine or a cup of wine. It was a meal. So when they came together

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for that meal, the problem was that maybe some people got off work early and got there

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sooner than others and maybe some people were wealthier and others weren't so wealthy. So

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the eating became this kind of, it wasn't a unified experience. It was all broken up.

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Some people had great food. Other people had very little food. Some people were getting

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drunk. Other people, you know, so this is what he's complaining about. And then he goes

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on in verse 22 to say, by doing this, you show contempt for the church of God and you

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humiliate those who have nothing. Okay. So I think it's just really important for us

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to understand that when Paul says later on, he says that when you're eating the Lord's

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supper in an unworthy manner, you might say, well, what's the unworthy manner? That's the

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unworthy manner. The unworthy manner is people are coming together, not caring for each other

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and actually in some ways excluding groups because this group's going ahead and this

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group's not, this group's rich and this group's poor and this group's haves and have nots.

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So that's what he's actually condemning. That's the unworthy manner. Now, then he actually

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gives that very famous passage where he says, for I received from the Lord while I also

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handed on to you that on the night that Jesus was betrayed, he took bread and da da da.

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And he goes and gives this very famous account of the words of institution of the Lord's

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supper. But it's really important to note that he emphasizes the plural nature of the

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you, right? So he says, this is my body that is given for you. And I mean, I know in English

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we say you could be singular, could be plural, but this is the plural use of it. So you,

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all of you, this is my body that is given for all of you.

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For y'all.

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For y'all. That's right. Do this as often as y'all eat it. Do this as often as you all

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drink it. For as often as you all eat the bread and drink the cup, you all proclaim

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the Lord's death until he comes again. So I think that I really do think what he's trying

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to do is he's trying to say, you all need to be together in this, right? And if there's

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this broken up nature of what's happening, then you're actually eating and drinking judgment

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on yourself. You're not discerning the body of Christ here. So then, but I mean, it should

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be clear to us because then in verse 33, he kind of concludes and it's very clear. He

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says, so then, therefore, therefore, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat,

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eat for one another. If you're hungry, eat at home so that when you come together, it

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will not be for your condemnation. So that was a long Bible study, but I think my point

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simply is this. We think that the risk of condemnation when you come to the Lord's Supper

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is that, oh, I didn't, I don't have enough faith or I didn't confess my sins or I, you

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know, I didn't, I'm eating it unworthily. Like I'm not worthy somehow. Or maybe that

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intellectually you haven't assented to all the kind of creedal beliefs of the Christian

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church. And if you haven't got that right, then don't come to the table because you're

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not rightly, whoops, gosh, you're not rightly discerning the body of Christ. But I don't

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think that's what he's saying at all. He's saying that you're, sorry, Jordan, would you

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grab that? He's saying that it's actually more when you are excluding people, that then

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you're not rightly recognizing the body of Christ. So it's almost like the exact opposite

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of what people think of me.

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Yeah, no. So it makes me think about this idea of like an individual faith or an individual

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experience of faith versus a corporate experience of faith. And in our Western sort of modern

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culture, we tend as a generalization to be a bit more individualistic and to think, okay,

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my relationship with Christ, my having a right relationship with Christ is really just about

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me and Christ. Whereas where Paul is coming from is really actually saying, no, having

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a right relationship with Christ is also about how you relate to the other folks in the church

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around you. So like coming and taking communion in a worthy manner is just as much about how

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you are relating to your neighbor as it is about how you are relating to Christ.

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Yeah. And who's worthy anyways? Here's the question. If you think, okay, I'm worthy,

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I can now worthily, then maybe that's a sign that you're actually not worthy. And again,

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I just go back to that supper where Jesus instituted those words. Look at who was at

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the table with him. Were these worthy people? He ate this meal with a guy he knew was going

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to betray him to death, right? Sitting beside him, somebody else who was going to deny him,

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the rest who were going to flee from him, were they eating and drinking in a worthy

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manner? Were these people who had kind of figured it out? No. So anyways, for all those

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reasons, I do feel like I'm going to, I feel comfortable erring on the side of being more

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open in the invitation for people to come to communion and not to kind of, I think it's

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actually a misreading of first Corinthians 11. I don't know. Maybe Jordana, you're thinking

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deeply about this. I'm thinking about that balance between opening up the table to everyone,

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knowing we come because we are not worthy in so many ways. And that is never going to,

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should ever be a barrier to anyone coming. And at the same time, holding true to the

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middle passage that you spoke about, what does it signify? It is signifying this redemptive

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arc, right? And so in the effort to open up, to not lose the heart of what is being offered,

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right? I mean, there's, so on the one hand, and I think that's where I think some of the

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tension lies when we open something up so widely and it's right that everyone be invited

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at any stage of questioning. To what, is it simply just, I mean, to what extent are we

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also holding onto the heart of communion as associated with the body and blood and death

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of Christ, right? And that's sort of where I would sort of wonder how to articulate it

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in a way that really does make people feel welcome into the story of redemption, collectively.

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It connects with, I think another question someone submitted, which was around inclusivity.

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Yeah, I was going there. Yeah, somebody was maybe, was that a question?

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Yeah, yeah. I mean, we can absolutely go there. I mean, you spoke about, you know, as we open

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up hospitality to people who are different, who are marginalized, right? You use the word

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inclusive. Now that's a very modern word. It really just takes off. It comes up in the

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1980s in academia. It just really takes off in the last 15 years, right? So is it simply

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inclusivity we're talking about here or is what is on offer something deeper, something

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more, something different, something complimentary? Could you reflect on that relationship?

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So yeah, you said it's a new word and that's actually kind of new to me. Because when,

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so when Jesus gets accused, says, oh, when the disciples get asked, why does your teacher

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eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners? Could they not have just, is that not also

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to say why does he include tax collectors and sinners? I mean, it seems to me there's

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no doubt that whether inclusivity is a new word or an old word, Jesus demonstrated some

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version of that. In fact, in theology, there is this, the gospel of inclusivity is kind

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of a whole take on what Jesus was doing with his open commensality that was happening at

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tables. But I also totally agree with you. The word inclusive has come to mean all sorts

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of things, right?

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Yeah. And it has particular valences now, which is what I was asking you to reflect

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on.

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Yeah. I think that it is true. I firmly believe the gospel is very inclusive. I think a couple

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weeks ago we talked about, you know, God so loved the world, right? And that there will

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be this untold number of people around the throne, a multitude, which nobody can count.

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We read in the book of Revelation. So I think there is this grand scope of who's included

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that probably boggles our minds, right? But I will also say, and I would agree to, the

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gospel is also exclusive in another sense, right? There's this, Jesus, you know, John

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14, six, you know, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except

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through me. Acts 412 says, there is no other name under heaven given to humankind by which

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we may call on and be saved. So there is this like, there is this exclusive, there's this

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exclusive, like Jesus is Lord and if Jesus is Lord, then no one else is, right? Like

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you can only have one master, right? So I agree that there is this inclusive invitation

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that is offered, but there's also this exclusively unique Jesus that, yeah, but I think actually

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that, I think it was John Wesley had this approach to Holy communion. And I don't know,

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some of this might be, the myth of this may have grown over the years, but he said that

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the table, the table can be both a, communion can be both an ordinance of confirmation.

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That is, it can be a place where you can, you've already confirmed, you believe in Jesus

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and, and so, and so therefore you're coming only to confirm something you already believe.

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But he also said it can be a table of conversion. So, so that coming to the table, being invited

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to the table is in fact a step toward your heart being changed and converted. And I,

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to me is, yeah, anyways, I'm talking too much, but that, that there, if you look at the story

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of someone like Zacchaeus, so here was a horrible dude, right? He was unjust. When Jesus invites

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himself over to Zacchaeus place to eat with him, is he whitewashing all of Zacchaeus'

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injustice? No, not, not really, because actually how the story ends is this, this meal that

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he shared became the opportunity, became the place where Zacchaeus experienced profound

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conversion. He stands up and says, I'm going to give half of everything I have to the poor.

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If I've defrauded anyone, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to pay them back, what

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was it, four times, three times as much. I can't remember, three or four times as much.

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So there's a good example of how an inclusive approach by Jesus, right? He's, he's, he's

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including the worst guy in town, but the result of it, the consequence of it is he, he comes

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to repent. He comes to turn from his evil ways and, and starts fresh in this moment

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of conversion. So anyways, yeah, yeah, that's a lot, but I think inclusion, exclusivity,

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they're both happening here, but I think that actually inclusive nature doesn't mean that

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there's not like a real conversion or a real change that can happen in somebody's life.

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Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's different people are sort of wired differently, right? Like

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the, there are some people who like a sermon, an intellectual sort of way of going through

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things is what's going to like be a really significant spiritual moment for them, right?

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Where they're going to learn a new thing and they're going to just know in their, in their

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mind or in their heart that this is, this is real, this is what's happening. But there

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are other people for whom they could listen to you or to any teacher for, for hours. And,

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and it just, it would never make sense, right? But it's that moment of whether it's communion,

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whether it's, you know, a prayer with someone, whether it's a hug from a friend, like whatever

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it is, it's that tangible thing. It's that meal together. It's, it's that moment that

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yeah, is more spiritually significant for them. And so I think, yeah, bringing both is, it's

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just more helpful. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've all heard that cliche, right? And people don't

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care how much you believe until they, no, people don't care what you know until they

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know how much you care, right? So, or, or that whole idea of which comes first, is it

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belonging or believing? Right. Right. And I think for many years, the church said you

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have to believe first and then you can belong, i.e. participate fully in this meal. But,

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you know, is it true? Is it possible that actually belonging comes first ahead of believing?

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And it's actually by participating in this meal, by, you know, taking the bread and taking

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the wine that, that you actually come to believe, oh my goodness, this is true. This is real.

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You know, Jesus died for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, one of the other things that Jesus often

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does at meals is, uses them as opportunities for evangelism or discipleship. So, you were

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just talking about Zacchaeus, how there's something, whether Jesus preaches a sermon

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or not is not, maybe not the point, but there's, there's evangelism and there's discipleship

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happening around that table. Yeah. But for us, evangelism and discipleship feel like

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really big concepts, really scary things that are hard for us to do. So, are there ways

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that you think we can incorporate some practices of evangelism and discipleship into our own

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practices of hospitality? It's a good question. And I think it has to be very just carefully

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discerned. Because look, if you invite people over to your home and it's clear to them that

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you have a mission to share the gospel with them in a way, then it could actually take

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away from the intimacy that is so important in these moments. It could make them feel

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like, oh, I see what this was about. This wasn't really about becoming friends. This

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was about you sharing the gospel with me. For some people, when you have them over,

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that door may open and it may just be the most natural and beautiful thing ever to say,

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well, here, let me share with you how Jesus has made a difference in my life. And then

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boom, you're right into it and it works. But I think you think our agendas maybe just need

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to be set aside and really trust the leading of the Holy Spirit in those moments. Yeah.

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I don't know if you've, it's a hard one. It is. And I think you're right that it has

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to start with discernment. And lots of prayer. Yes. Because it's in the end, the Spirit's

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convicting work. We are asked to open our homes to care for people, to share when the

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opportunity comes. But I would imagine that being more sensitive to people, to really

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just caring about them and praying is all prelude to evangelism. Yeah. And sometimes

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it's, I mean, when you invite someone into your home, you're kind of giving them an inside

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look at your life, at your marriage, at your parenting, at your, you know, and so there's

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always going to be an unspoken or maybe an unintentional kind of way that your life can

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speak. You know, I think if someone came into your home and they were just like, wow, I

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love the way that Jordana relates with her kids. I mean, that's wonderful. Or I just

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watched how she worked through that problem with her little guy and man, she was so patient

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and I wish I could be patient like that. And so I think that those are real things people

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notice too, that become, you know, stepping stones toward evangelism. I wonder what it

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is about Jordana that allows her to stay so calm in a moment like that when I would just

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lose my cool, right? Well, how do you do that Jordana? Well, let me tell you, you know?

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And so there is like, there is something like that that I think can happen. Just the witness

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of our lives. Not that our lives are perfect. But yeah, I think that it's, I mean, look,

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meals don't save people. No, Jesus saves people, right? The meal becomes just the context.

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It just becomes the place where it's almost like you're just facilitating this opportunity

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where Jesus can come and do his work. This is, I just thought of this, but I started

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by talking about how, you know, we kind of become Jesus to others and that we carry on

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his ministry of hospitality. But don't forget, the Bible also says that others become Jesus

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to us in these interactions too, right? Whether it was somebody who is, you know, the sick

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or the hungry or the child, you know, whenever you welcome a child, Jesus says, you welcome

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me. Whenever you welcome one who sent me, you welcome me. You know, like there was the

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sick, the poor, people have entertained angels unknowingly. So I think there has to also

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be humility when we enter into these kind of moments with people that it may not be

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that I'm here to tell you something you need to hear. It could be that God is actually

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speaking something to you through this person, that God has actually come and is sitting

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down with you now and you need to be aware the message might be running the other direction

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too.

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Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think sort of building on that, there's something almost perhaps

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inherently, but there's something spiritual about sharing a meal together. Even if we

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never talk about the spiritual things, like I think that there's still value in feeding

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people. There's still value in relationship and building a community. So whether we explicitly

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talk about spirituality and discipleship or not, I think that there's still something

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spiritual happening.

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Yeah. Yeah. And you're earning a hearing for, you know, evangelism is such a long process

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that yes, some people might be able to witness the moment where somebody kind of finally,

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you know, makes that decision to say yes to Jesus and trust him. But there were probably

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countless other people that came ahead of that person and their job was just much simpler.

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It was just to have a meal with them to like say, oh, these Christians aren't as bad as

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I thought, you know, or that, you know, to kind of soften them up, to kind of force them

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to reconsider maybe some of their long held prejudices against the church or whatever.

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Like, you know, there could be, yeah, you're right. Just having a meal is part of the journey

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for that person.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So then are there ever times when as Christians we should be hesitant to offer hospitality?

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Yes, I think so.

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Okay.

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What do you think?

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I mean, it's a question about boundaries, about, you know, what can we do in a healthy

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way? We're not living, we're still this side of the eschaton. You know, there are, as you

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said, there are risks which we must take, but there's also responsibilities to it, safety.

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I'm just, I just love some thoughts and guidance on that.

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Yeah. You were going to say something?

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Yeah, no, I was just going to say, like, I don't know if there are times when as a Christian

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I feel like I shouldn't be offering hospitality, but there are definitely moments when I, as

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a single woman, don't feel like I should be offering someone hospitality. Right? And so

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whether that's about my Christian identity or just my identity as a person in the world.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that's right.

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I mean-

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And you can create the boundary between that too strongly and it's not, right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I think, I mean, we were talking about family earlier on, right? And I think that

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that's one thing you probably, we need to remember is our family is also a priority.

397
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:19,640
And so if somehow our offering of hospitality is creating a risk or a distraction from what

398
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,360
is also one of our key responsibilities, that's, you know, providing a home environment that's

399
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:30,720
safe and where our kids can be nurtured, then I think, yeah, we probably need to pay attention

400
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:35,160
to that. Like, we're not going to do this at the expense of our family or at the expense

401
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:41,320
of our marriage or at the expense of, but I also think secondly, you're right. Like,

402
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,480
you also don't want to do it at the expense of your like mental health either. Like, we're

403
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:55,400
busy and if hospitality is just, you're pushing it so much that actually it causes you to

404
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,920
burn out, then I think that's also, you're kind of, you're not listening to your body,

405
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:02,480
you're not listening to your whole life.

406
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:03,480
So-

407
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:04,480
You're not listening to your limitations.

408
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,480
Yes.

409
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:11,240
I think very often we get so guilty for not doing so much, but it's again, as you said,

410
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:17,240
it's not all on us. We share the responsibility, Christ is working and we're limited human

411
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:19,200
beings.

412
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,760
And yet I think at the same time, we would have to say that hospitality is always going

413
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:30,680
to be messy. It's not going to fit comfortably into, we're never going to get the perfect

414
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:36,360
place. So I think, yeah, we got to exercise some caution. We have to definitely exercise

415
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:43,440
lots of wisdom, but even then we got to be willing to accept the cost, the inconvenience

416
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:50,760
and to err on the side of compassion and opening up our homes. So yeah.

417
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:55,600
Yeah. No, I think there's a difference and sometimes the line is fine, but there is a

418
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,760
difference between this being an inconvenience and this being a thing that I actually can't

419
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:09,280
handle today. Right? Like there, and discipleship is supposed to be costly in some sense. It's

420
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:15,560
not always going to be comfortable and easy. And so I think we need to stop and ask ourselves,

421
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:21,880
okay, am I feeling uncomfortable because this is awkward or am I feeling uncomfortable because

422
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:29,000
this is actually not something that's healthy for me and my household to enter into at this

423
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,000
moment?

424
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:36,520
Yeah, that's right. And only you can answer that question. Yeah. Yeah. You certainly don't

425
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:46,160
want to sacrifice your own health or the healthier family to be hospitable. I guess, I don't

426
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:47,520
know. It's a tough call.

427
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,480
Yeah. Yeah. So we just want to wrap up with one more question. So at the beginning, you

428
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,560
mentioned that Jesus was called a glutton and a drunkard, which are probably, you know,

429
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:04,560
not very nice terms that you would want to be called yourself. So what do you think about

430
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:10,040
this? What does that say about Jesus' reputation? And does it say anything about what our reputation

431
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,640
should or shouldn't be?

432
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:18,480
Yeah. I mean, do you think Jesus was a glutton and a drunkard? Or do you think he just-

433
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:25,040
I think it was called for he partied all the time. He just enjoyed people so much, you

434
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,040
know?

435
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:35,280
Yeah. I think that it could be that actually Jesus did enjoy eating and drinking. And that

436
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,440
could be one. The other thing, it could just be that it was slanderous and it was because

437
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,360
of the people he hung around with. And so it was just like a way of, you know, kind

438
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:52,400
of stretching the truth and, you know, telling, you know, trying to paint him in a poor light.

439
00:41:52,400 --> 00:42:01,200
But I think that it does raise a question about who we, who do we hang around with.

440
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,920
I can remember maybe not so much here at Trinity, but I've been at some other churches and we've

441
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,400
talked about, you know, hey, it's important for you to kind of mix and mingle with people

442
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,600
who maybe aren't believers and to also have friends who aren't all from the church. And

443
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,200
some people would really actually like, oh, I don't, all my friends are at church. All

444
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:24,520
my friends are churchgoers or believers. I don't even know who I would invite. And so

445
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:31,360
that's a bit of a warning sign that when everybody in your life and all the people you hang out

446
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:38,920
with are already believers or followers of Jesus, then I think we need to hear that,

447
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:44,560
you know, Jesus himself mixed and mingled with those who, you know, who we might say

448
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:52,240
are far, we're far from God or far from church. And that became actually his reputation. And

449
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:59,680
I just wonder like, is that my reputation that I'm always hanging? Probably not. No.

450
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:05,040
And but yeah, I don't know. I guess it just, it just does make me wonder like, what is

451
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:10,280
our reputation as a people? You know, what do people think about us? And are we willing

452
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:19,520
to risk our reputation? Maybe to be seen in the company of other people that people may

453
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:27,840
look down on? Are we willing to take that risk ourselves? I don't know.

454
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,760
Well thank you so much Jordana and Rob for sitting down with me today. This has been

455
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:37,400
a really good conversation. Yeah, it has been. Thank you. Yeah. And so I hope that you have

456
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:44,120
also enjoyed this conversation together. And yeah, that you can go forth and sort of think

457
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,500
about some of these things and how can you stretch yourself a little bit to practice

458
00:43:48,500 --> 00:44:08,040
more hospitality. Until then, we'll see you next week.