1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,400 Well, good morning, everyone. Welcome to Trinity Talks, which is our between services podcast 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,920 here at Trinity. And I'm excited because I've got Justin Stratis with me. And he is a professor 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:19,240 of systematic theology at Wycliffe College in Toronto. So thank you for joining me. 4 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:20,880 Yes, ma'am. Happy to be here. 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,560 We just are wrapping up a sermon series on the Bible. Specifically, it's called The Bible 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:30,480 for Grownups. And something tells me that you know a thing or two about the Bible. 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,160 A little bit. Yes, I've read it. I've seen it. It exists in my house. 8 00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:36,120 Yes. And you preached on it last week. 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,120 Oh, yes, I did do that. 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:42,080 That's right. So we thought it would be wonderful to have you join us because myself and I as 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,760 well, I think the listeners here would be really interested to hear your perspective 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:54,800 on why the Bible is just so amazing and maybe also why or how we can use the Bible or maybe 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:00,680 more specifically be used by the Bible in the power of that as well. So let's have a 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:01,680 chat. 15 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:02,680 Sure. 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,960 All right. So to warm us up, I want to ask you a question. Other than Jesus, is there 17 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:12,680 anyone in the Bible who you would love to go back in time with and sit down and have 18 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:14,800 dinner with and have a chat? 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:20,840 Yeah. So I guess for theological reasons, I'd love to hang out with the apostle Paul 20 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,040 because he writes really confusing stuff and it would be good to get his sort of authoritative 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,440 take on what he wrote. But as I was mentioning before, Noah might be fun. 22 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:31,960 Why is that? 23 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:38,920 Because he's famous for getting drunk and passing out on the beach. So yeah, I mean, 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,800 the Bible doesn't affirm that, but it would be fun to hang out with him. He seems like 25 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:43,800 a good partier. 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:48,240 Yeah, see what he's all about. All right. OK, that's great. So we're going to talk about 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,720 the Bible and the theme of this past sermon series that we're just sort of wrapping up 28 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:58,560 now, as I said, was the Bible for grownups. And we talked about how as a mature Christian, 29 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,720 we may need to start approaching the Bible more maturely if we want to really understand 30 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,960 it and really be used by it. So I'm wondering as a child, when you were introduced, I'm 31 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,240 assuming to the Bible, what were your experiences with that text? 32 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:20,040 Well, so my parents grew up Greek Orthodox and they converted to evangelical Protestantism 33 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,960 right before I was born. So they were kind of learning about what it meant to be an evangelical 34 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:31,400 Protestant as I was growing up. So we were sort of at the mercy of whatever our churches 35 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,600 were teaching us. So at that time, my gosh, my interactions with scripture, we had to 36 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,360 memorize a lot of it. That was kind of a thing at our church. And you get various prizes 37 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:49,600 for doing that. So I remember memorizing Psalm 23 when I was a kid in the King James Version. 38 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:55,560 And I was given a Bible, I think when I was in second grade in the States, I'm from the 39 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:01,000 States. And I still have that somewhere from Mrs. Culver, if I remember. 40 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,200 Thanks, Mrs. Culver. 41 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:08,160 So but yeah, and then but I didn't really memorize scripture and I had a Bible and that 42 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,720 was kind of my interactions as a kid, but I didn't really take to it until I was a teenager. 43 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,600 Okay. Well, you've been known to say that you love the Bible. So I'm wondering, what's 44 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,040 the story there? How did you come to fall in love with the Bible? 45 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:26,480 Well, I mean, I often say, I've been involved in ministry type stuff for a long time. I 46 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:33,160 became a Christian when I was a teenager in high school. And I've kind of always had like 47 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,360 a behind the scenes view of church because I was a musician and I was a leader in my 48 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:43,960 youth group. And later I started working on staff at churches. And there's something that 49 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:50,320 there's kind of a seeing behind the veil of being in ministry that sort of takes the shine 50 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:56,040 off of some of Christian stuff. Yeah. But I've never had that with the Bible for some 51 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,680 reason, even though I study it a lot. And I spent a lot of time talking about it. It's 52 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:05,080 always surprising. And I feel like I never get to see behind the scenes of scripture. 53 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:10,560 It's always kind of front and center and challenging me and saying unusual things to me. That's 54 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,240 great. Sparks my imagination like nothing else. 55 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,200 Interesting. Actually, you're just mentioning this sparks your imagination. And I know that's 56 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,920 part of, we're going to be doing a course on Lectio Divina coming up here. 57 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,400 Oh yes. Yeah, like the monks. 58 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,000 Yeah. And I know that sometimes just getting into that imaginary prayer that comes with 59 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,680 reading scripture can just really open up the mind to what God is trying to tell us. 60 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,680 And I'm glad you mentioned that. But you have a lot of students at school, I assume. 61 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,240 Yes. Yes. And some of them may just be tackling the 62 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,800 Bible seriously for the very first time in your theology courses. So how do you introduce 63 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:50,880 the Bible to your students? Well, there's a couple things. I want them 64 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:58,960 to know that scripture reveals Jesus Christ. So I think that's its primary goal. Well, 65 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,720 it reveals God, but it reveals God through the mediation of Jesus Christ. So when you 66 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:09,240 read it, you're asking the question, how does this particular passage show me something 67 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:15,920 about Jesus? So that's number one. The second thing is you can read the Bible for all different 68 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,080 kinds of reasons. I kind of alluded to this in my sermon last week. You can read it to 69 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:25,040 learn about history. You can read it to learn about morality. You can read it to learn about 70 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,680 religion. I'm stealing this idea from Karl Barth, who's a theologian. 71 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,360 OK. Hero of mine. You can read it for all those reasons. 72 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:41,680 And the Bible will give you what you want out of it. But if you want to know God, it 73 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,280 can reveal God to you. And that's the primary way you should read it. And I think sometimes 74 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:50,840 when you get into academic readings of the Bible, you forget that. You think, well, if 75 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:56,520 I really understand what was going on in ancient Palestine, then I'll really understand what 76 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:01,800 Isaiah is about. No, you'll only understand Isaiah if you read it before God and with 77 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,680 the expectation that God will speak to you through the words of that prophet. 78 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,680 OK. So all right. So do you think there's any misconceptions or problems or challenges 79 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:16,320 that people may face when they read the Bible? And like, how do you think people can overcome 80 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:17,320 those challenges? 81 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:23,020 Yeah. So the Bible is it's weird, right? It's an old, old book. If you grew up in the West 82 00:06:23,020 --> 00:06:28,200 or certain parts of the Global South and you've been sort of saturated with Bible references, 83 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,120 it can trick you into feeling like it's a regular book and a feature of your own culture 84 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:37,600 and society. But it's from a long time ago. It's hard to read. So a lot of people, when 85 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,160 they first become Christians, they'll just start at page one and start reading Genesis. 86 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,280 And they they sort of vibe with that part of scripture. And then all of a sudden it 87 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:51,880 starts getting into all the law and the rules. I remember trying to read scripture with my 88 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,440 kids and it got into all the bits about the kinds of thread that the priest needs to wear. 89 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,960 Yeah, there's a big chunk of yeah, dedicated just to those parts. 90 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,880 Yeah, it's like 12 chapters in Exodus. Right. And then people flame out and they're like, 91 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:11,080 I don't know what's going on. Right. So so that's a that's a roadblock people face. 92 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,880 OK, they go into it with really good intentions and then they get really confused by what's 93 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:21,080 happening there. So I think if you're going to read it for the first time ever, I would 94 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,800 start with some kind of self-contained thing like a gospel, starting with the gospel of 95 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:33,040 John or Mark, just to get a sense. And then you sort of start asking questions about the 96 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,600 text. And that leads you to other bits of the Bible to figure it out. So going with 97 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,920 a reading plan can help with that. So you're not just bogged down in one particular book 98 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,960 of the Bible, but you're jumping around. And I used to use the Navigators Discipleship 99 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,720 Journal Bible reading plan. OK, I was a kid, which was really. Yeah. But so what are your 100 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:57,400 thoughts on people who say I'd like to read the Bible in a year? I think that's great. 101 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:02,720 Yeah. Yeah, I think there's kind of this pain barrier you need to get through. You just 102 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:07,760 need to like read the thing. Right. Right. And then you start asking questions about 103 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,520 what it means. But you need to sort of get under your belt. So reading through the Bible 104 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:17,600 in a year is great. In fact, oftentimes when I'm interviewing students who want to be perspective 105 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,360 students that want to come to seminary, they'll ask, what can I read to prepare for seminary? 106 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,920 And I said, just read the Bible. Yeah. Cover to cover. If you know that, you'll have the 107 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:33,360 raw materials to start working through things. That's good. That's good. So oftentimes people 108 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,160 may say that they have a favorite scripture or they might have a favorite passage that 109 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:41,560 they come to over and over again, maybe even a book of the Bible. So what are some of your 110 00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:45,560 favorites? And I'm sure there could be some favorites for all sorts of different reasons. 111 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:54,440 But I'm curious to know what has resonated with you maybe in the past. Well, in the Old 112 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,320 Testament, and this is kind of weird. Yeah, let's go Old Testament. I've been obsessed 113 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,880 with the book of Habakkuk for a long time or Habakook. I don't know, depending on how 114 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:08,920 do they say it in Canada? Habakkuk. Habakkuk. I honestly, I don't know. I remember I used 115 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:13,760 to teach in the UK and my students made fun of the way it pronounced it. So Canada is 116 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:19,200 always a toss up. As well with oregano. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Do you say oregano? No. Okay, good. 117 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,160 And you don't say aluminium either? No, we don't. No. Yeah. So I like Habakkuk because 118 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:30,680 it's just this kind of this book about everything has just turned to garbage. And it ends with 119 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:35,200 God giving a vision of hope. And I really resonated with that. And the New Testament, 120 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:42,000 I love for some reason, First Peter. Okay. It's a book written for Christians who are 121 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:49,920 sort of stuck in the world as strangers and aliens is the word that Peter uses. And so 122 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:56,280 there's this kind of note of how that's relevant for how we live our lives today in our sort 123 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,960 of post Christian secular society that I think First Peter speaks to. It also has this kind 124 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:08,520 of note of subversion, like, how do you live in the world and yet kind of slowly inject 125 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,680 Christian truth into it subtly. I love First Peter. Oh, I love that, which is probably 126 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:17,280 really good for Yeah, like you said, where we are right now in our Western culture in 127 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:23,500 our time and place. All right. So last week, you preached on the Bible and you mentioned 128 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:29,120 that the Bible is really unique in the way that the youngest Christians, even children 129 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,000 can go to sleep at night. I remember you saying and feel peace knowing that Jesus is with 130 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:39,440 them. The Lord is my shepherd and scholars of the Bible, people who have read it and 131 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:47,120 studied it are still learning and being revealed to by the power of the Bible. So how I guess, 132 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:54,680 how are you still learning? I mean, every time I pick up the Bible, it smashes my expectations 133 00:10:54,680 --> 00:11:02,320 of what I think it's going to say. I mean, there's passages as a theologian that I have 134 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,480 lots of thoughts about things like Philippians, Chapter two, verses five through eleven or 135 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:12,560 Ephesians, Chapter one or John, Chapter three or John, Chapter one. And I'll go to someone 136 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,240 who asked me to preach a sermon on it. And I'll assume I know exactly what I'm going 137 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:20,120 to say because I've thought about this. And every time it just blows up what I think it's 138 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:27,280 going to say and teaches me something new. But I think I mean, one of the reasons why 139 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:32,240 little kids can read it and scholars is because Jesus says you need the faith of a child. 140 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,840 Right. To to relate to me. And one of the things that that children have is that kind 141 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:42,520 of innocence and naivete of I don't know what this is going to say to me. You know, and 142 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:47,520 they always ask interesting questions. And in a way, that's exactly what the best scholars 143 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:52,600 should do. You should always come to the text like a child. Right. Full of expectation, 144 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,800 full of expectation that you're going to learn something new and you don't know what's going 145 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,840 to happen next. Wow. And that's what makes reading the Bible. And I don't think you 146 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:07,760 can do that with any other book. You could. But you could also become an expert in another 147 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,600 book, which I don't think you could become an expert in the Bible. Very. You just you 148 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:18,080 probably the best Bible readers. What makes them good is they ask interesting questions 149 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,840 more than they've they know everything about scripture. You get better at asking questions 150 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,840 better at asking questions. Well, that's we're going to leave it on that note. Thank you. 151 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:33,240 Well, thanks for having me. Thanks for coming. Yeah. Yeah. So that was Justin. He is like 152 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:39,640 we said, a professor of systematic theology. I didn't have that in my notes here, so I 153 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,480 needed him to remind me. So professor of systematic theology at Wypcliffe College. And he preached 154 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:56,920 last week. And thank you very much for joining me. Rock on. All right. Take care.