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Hello everyone, I'm Elizabeth Archer and today I am joined with Greg Holder.

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He is one of the founders of the Advent Conspiracy and he is joining us today here over Zoom

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at Trinity Church, Streetsville here in Mississauga, Ontario.

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So welcome, Greg.

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Welcome.

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I'm so glad to be here, Elizabeth.

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Maybe early, but Merry Christmas.

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Merry Christmas to you too.

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That's right.

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Maybe early, but never too late to just spread some of that joy.

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So Greg, you among many other things, I'm sure, you're an author and you're a speaker.

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You are a lead pastor at the church called The Crossing, right?

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That's right.

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It's at Mississauga.

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Yep, and it's a multi-site church.

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Wonderful.

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So we're just so glad that you've decided to take the time to come and join us here

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at Trinity Church, Streetsville.

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I'm just thrilled to be with you.

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Thanks for asking me.

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Thank you.

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So we're actually fast approaching, like you mentioned, the Christmas season.

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And the Christmas season, as I'm sure probably at your church as well, it's one of the busiest

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seasons of the year.

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We see this busyness really all over society, don't we?

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We see it in the malls, in the streets, we see it in the grocery stores.

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But as we prepare here at Trinity for Advent, so those four Sundays before Christmas, we

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always like to come up with a theme and have a focus for those four Sundays.

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And we've done different things in the past.

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But as we were doing our brainstorming with the staff this year, we came across something

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that immediately captivated us.

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And that was called the Advent Conspiracy.

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And I think it captivated us, first of all, because you don't usually see those two words

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together do you?

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Right, right.

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Advent Conspiracy.

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But it captivated us for a few other reasons as well.

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And anyway, Greg, you are actually one of the founders of the Advent Conspiracy, aren't

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you?

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Yes, yes, yes.

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Which is wonderful.

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So today, I'm glad that you're here, because I was hoping you could just take some time

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to answer some questions that we have about this.

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I'd like to say program, but I think it's more of a movement.

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Yeah, I agree with that.

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Yeah, let us know a little bit more about what it's all about.

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And I was on your website or on the website of the Advent Conspiracy.

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And on the front page, it says that there's this invitation and it says, be a part of

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a different story this Christmas, one that celebrates our King and brings hope to the

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watching world.

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Wow.

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What an invitation, radical in many ways.

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Could you just let us know and ask the listeners know what exactly is the Advent Conspiracy?

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Well, sure, sure.

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Let's start with what you were saying about that odd combination of words.

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So you just don't hear conspiracy used in a very positive way these days, nor have we

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ever, right?

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Right, I think skeptical.

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Exactly, yeah.

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And ooh, is there some hidden thing going on here?

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But let me just start off by reaching back to you said that this is a busy time of year

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for all of us, and particularly those of us that are in the church.

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And so we get caught up in the, there's so much beautiful, so many wonderful things that

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are happening, but before you know it, it's overwhelming.

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And so to go back to the beginning of this, myself, Chris C and Rick McKinley, so these

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are three friends.

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We're in the St. Louis area, Chris is in the Houston, Texas area, and Rick is in Portland,

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Oregon.

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So we three friends were together, and there was a time after Christmas, sometime early

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in the year, where we were sort of lamenting how we get through the Christmas season and

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we miss it.

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We miss some of the joy, we miss some of the wonder because we're so focused on all of

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these things that we have to do in leading churches.

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And then we started to say, well, wait a minute, I don't think it's just us.

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I think our folks get through the Christmas season and some of them survive it, but they

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don't thrive in that season.

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And then there were other things that began to come to mind for us, one of which was our

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folks were putting themselves further and further into debt, all in the name of celebrating

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Christmas.

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And we looked at each other and said, is there a better way for us to do this?

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Because we're sort of getting lured into something that isn't even a part of the story.

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And so we began to think, how can we do this in such a way where we do ask our folks to

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conspire?

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There's the word.

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How do we conspire against some of these societal pressures?

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How do we get back to the original story?

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How do we find beauty in some of this in a sort of a unique way and still hang on to

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the beauty, the joy of giving, of loving, of celebrating, all of those things.

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Hence the four tenets of the Advent Conspiracy.

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And so that's really kind of the birth of it.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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So I think that through these conversations, I'd love to hear a little bit more about what

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those four tenants are going to look like for our churches.

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We work through the Advent Conspiracy.

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But before I even get to that question, I want to throw it back, Greg, what did Christmas

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look like for you as a kid?

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It was great.

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I grew up in a home where both my parents were Christ followers.

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And so we would be involved with church.

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Mom and dad were very involved in what I would call a traditional music ministry.

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So they would be all a flutter with what the choir was doing and those kinds of things.

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So that was fun.

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But as a family, we would gather together and there were just really joyous moments.

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I remember being with family and extended family and I don't know if it was a simpler

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time or if I was just unaware, but it didn't seem as complicated as it is now.

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It didn't seem as overwhelming.

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And I remember as a kid just loving the family and the joy and the laughter and all of it.

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So for me, Christmas was a good thing.

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Was a joyful thing.

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And through the eyes of a child, right?

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Yeah.

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And like you said, I have done my research and I've seen that there are those four tenants

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of the Advent Conspiracy.

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And I'll ask you maybe now to go through each of those four tenants.

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I believe they're worship fully, spend less, give more and love all.

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Could you tell us really where you got those ideas from?

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Maybe a little bit about the order because I know that there's a specific order to those

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and sort of what we can expect as we walk through those Sundays.

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Yeah.

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So first of all, let me just say way to go.

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I'm excited for the journey that you guys are on.

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We're excited.

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I remember the first time our church went through this and Elizabeth, you and I were

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talking before the podcast.

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This is something that has a life of its own throughout the years.

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Like our church is still, I'm teaching on Advent Conspiracy this very weekend, this

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next weekend.

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It is still something that we celebrate and we have kids here that they've grown up and

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it's the only way they've known how Christmas goes.

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And so it does come down to those four tenants.

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The first one, worship fully.

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Obviously, this is where it has to start.

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Christmas begins and ends with us worshiping the King.

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If you take that out of our celebration of Christmas, it all falls apart.

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And so we do want to stress that when we talk to our families, when we talk to our churches,

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we are going to gather around the King and worship the God who came to be with us, the

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God who came to rescue us.

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It all begins and ends with Jesus.

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And so for us, he is the focal point of all of this that begins to fuel our gratitude.

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It begins to clarify our perspective and ultimately begins to motivate even our generosity, but

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it is worship fully.

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And I would say most churches, when I've talked about this over the years around the world,

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this is the one that everybody's like, got it, makes sense, perfectly clear to me, right?

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And I would imagine your church has this dialed in and it's probably something that you all

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think about, pray about and prepare for even now, the worshiping fully, you get it.

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Then we get to these next two, which are sort of interesting and it's spend less and give

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more.

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Right.

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Which to me at first, they sound like they might juxtapose each other.

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Well, and that's a great insight.

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And I want to, let's answer that in just a second.

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The spend less is just what you think it is.

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It is spend less money.

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Now, I will tell you that here in the States, I just read an article that said that we may

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now be going into historic levels of credit card debt as we move into the Christmas season.

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So personal debt on our credit cards might reach all time highs.

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And we're doing this in the name of celebrating the birth of Jesus.

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I promise you, Jesus is not thrilled with us spending money that we don't have.

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When we say spend less, there's a practical aspect to it.

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Be good stewards with what God has given you.

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So it is that.

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But I also think there's another part to it.

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For us, it is spend less because celebrating Christmas, one of the things that we will

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sometimes say is that a beautiful Christmas morning is not defined by having a pile of

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presents four feet high around the tree.

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What I've noticed in my own life and previous, like pre-advent conspiracy days, and we all

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fall into this, it's kind of like you think, well, more is better.

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And so we've just got all of these things.

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And particularly when you have young kids, it's like, let's just shower them with so

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many things.

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And what we have found is when this happens, which I understand motivation, but when it

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happens, the kids then really don't even take the time to savor or enjoy one gift from the

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next because they're tearing into something and tossing it over their shoulder to get

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to the next thing, to get to the next thing, which is just this hyper-consumerism that

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we've all been led to believe, well, this is how you celebrate Christmas.

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Now, sometimes you even see it on some of the advertisements and some of the commercials.

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I love those commercials where the husband and the wife give each other matching cars

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or pickup trucks that have the big red bows on the top of them.

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And it's like somehow we're being told, well, if you really love him, you're going to give

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some exorbitant gift.

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And so we all get sucked into that.

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And so when we say spend less, we mean resist the societal pressures of that.

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And you actually begin to help your families to resist that.

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You talk about it.

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It does not mean, and I want to stress this, it does not mean spend nothing.

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It does not mean don't give gifts.

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We're not saying that this is not an anti-Christmas movement.

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This is when we're not Scrooge's, none of those things, but spend less, be reasonable,

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talk about it.

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And then the counterbalance to that is give more, which you're absolutely right in suggesting

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that that sounds like a contradiction.

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What we're saying is to give more relational gifts.

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Now, what does that mean?

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Well, let's go back to the story.

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The most relational gift we've ever been given is Jesus, our Savior, who takes on flesh and

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blood.

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We can all go to the scriptures.

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For God so loved the world, he gave his son.

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So there's an incarnational aspect to this.

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And what that means is that we begin to think through how do we give relational gifts?

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Now, what's a relational gift?

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It is a gift that you and I can celebrate our relationship together as I give it to

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you.

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So here's an example, and there's a myriad of these examples, and we have them on our

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website for if people are going, wait, I need more ideas.

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A simple one is, hey, I know you like cooking, and we haven't been able to spend much time

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together.

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I'm going to give you like a one night cooking class.

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That's my gift to you, but we get to go together.

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And so all of a sudden now it's you and your sister, it's you and someone else, it's a

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friend, and it's like, we just have grown too busy, so I want to give this to you, but

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we're both going to go and spend the evening together.

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And all of a sudden, that's a relational gift.

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You're still giving, but it's a relational gift.

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Now, sometimes it doesn't even involve an expense at that level.

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It could be one of the classic gifts, and it's in the book that we wrote that eventually

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when this really started to take off globally, Zondervan asked us to write a book.

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And so in the book, we talk about a young man, I think he was in his 20s if I'm remembering

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right, he gives his dad a bag of coffee beans.

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And you're like, okay, I mean, so dad liked coffee, right?

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Okay.

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He spent less.

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No, he gave more because it was a note accompanying the gift.

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And it said, dad, you're only allowed to grind the beans and to drink this coffee down with

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me.

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And however long it takes, however many times we have to sit down as we go through this

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bag of beans, I want you to tell me stories of how you became the man you are.

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I want to get to know you at a different level.

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Now you tell me how important was that gift to that father?

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Wow.

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That's a relational gift.

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So it's something that celebrates that.

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In my own life, I've seen that when people have given my wife a gift that celebrates

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a relationship and that she has to sit there.

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It's like a journal where friends all wrote into this journal over the course of some

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weeks and this one friend compiled it.

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And so then Robin on Christmas morning is taking the time to actually read through these

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notes of how she has impacted people's lives and how loved she is by these people.

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Wow.

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Now we're going back though to it's our Christmas is Elizabeth now at my house are so much slower.

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I hear a slowness.

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Yeah.

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Well, yeah.

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And there's a, there's a, there's so much meaning to some of these gifts that we, we

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kind of sit there and we'll laugh and in some cases cry and somebody will say, well, wait,

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wait, wait, what is that gift?

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And well, you got to look at this.

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This is something that someone gave and all of a sudden we're not consuming.

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We're enjoying.

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And I would suggest we're actually, we're actually worshiping because it's like, wow,

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God, you've blessed me so much with this friend.

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You have blessed me so much with this child that, that I love.

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And it's just, you get to slow down now.

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And I know you're going to think I'm crazy.

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And some of you guys who have younger kids are going to just think I'm, I'm, I've lost

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touch, but I'm telling you, I've watched it.

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I watched it in the life of my own kids.

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I've watched it in, in the lives of so many others.

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Kids get this.

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They get this.

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And when you start giving gifts that there's nothing wrong with, you know, giving your

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kid, I'll say baseball because you know, a little boy.

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Okay.

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But don't just give him one glove.

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Make sure that you go dust your glove off and wrap it in there with him and say, you

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know what, we're going to have a catch now because I, you and I've got to, we're going

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to spend more time together.

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That's a relational gift.

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You can do this in so many different ways.

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You can celebrate a relationship.

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I know a, I know a young girl who took a glass jar, an old Mason jar.

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And over the course of a period of time, she would just write these little memories of

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her Nana in this jar.

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I remember when you walked me around the duck pond.

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I remember when you used to make me this for lunch.

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I remember these days.

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So she puts all of these into this Mason jar.

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That's the gift to her Nana.

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She says, Nana, every week at the first of the week, I want you to take the lid off and

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just pull one of those out.

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And over the course of this next year, I just want you to know, I'm thinking about you.

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I love you.

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I'm grateful for you.

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We can do this.

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So it's worshipfully, it's spend less, it's give more.

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Now, with some of the money, this is what we have said, with some of the money that

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we save from not buying, you know, uncle Bill, that sweater he was never going to wear anyway.

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Why don't we together as a family and what we do as a church is to say, why don't we

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pool some of that money?

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Not all of it, but why don't we take some of that money and pool it together and give

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it to the least of these?

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Why don't we find something in our community, in our world that we say, hey, together we're

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spending less, but some of that money that we now have, we want to give that away to

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those in Matthew 25 that Jesus says are the least of these.

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And so for us, that became the water crisis around the world.

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And it began a relationship with an organization, a global organization called Living Water

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International that provides water and sanitation and hygiene around the world.

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And so the four tenants come together for us at Christmas when we take an offering.

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And for us, we say, as we take this offering, this is who we're giving this away.

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This money is leaving the building, it's going outside these walls and you're blessing another.

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I cannot tell you how winsome that idea is to children.

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I'm telling you all along the way around the world, I've heard this over and over and over

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again, kids are the ones who lead the way on this.

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If you teach them all of this, I remember a story at our church a few years ago where

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a young child, I'm going to say like school age, second, third grade, said to their grandparents,

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me, that one gift that you were going to give me, OK, I want that one gift because that's

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the thing I want.

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But don't give me anything else.

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Let's take all the money you were going to spend on me and let's give it to those kids

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that we're talking about in our kids class that don't have water.

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Let's give it to them.

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Now, that wasn't mom and dad saying that.

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That was like an eight or a nine year old child leading the family and saying, we can

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do this.

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So that was a pretty fast run through of the four tenants, Elizabeth.

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That's how it works.

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And that's honestly, it's something that every church can be a part of at one level or another.

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And it begins to change.

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I'm telling you, it can change Christmas morning like you can't even hardly believe.

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That's beautiful.

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I'm inspired.

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I'm encouraged.

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I'm excited.

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I can't wait to take this home to my own family, my own children, my own husband, and then

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our families as well.

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I think this seems radical, but it seems so real and it seems so honest.

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All this fear just kind of goes away.

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We have so much fear, I think, around Christmas time that really guides our choices.

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Then we don't even realize it.

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But I think it's fear that really sort of guides the way that we progress through this

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season.

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And there's a letting go in this advent conspiracy I hear.

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A little bit of surrender.

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That's a great point.

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The pressure is off if we focus on these things.

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I will say this.

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Some people feel the pressure of, oh boy, I'm not a very arts and craftsy person.

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I don't know how to make a gift.

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What do I do?

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Take a deep breath.

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Think about it.

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The Lord leads, but it's okay to talk to other people too.

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And it's okay to go to our website and see if there are other ideas.

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That's okay.

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But yes, I love your point about it takes some of the pressure off.

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Absolutely.

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And I think you mentioned that your website has these resources.

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Everything is free on the website.

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Anyone can access it.

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No, that's exactly right.

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It's a wonderful way for you and the founders of the advent conspiracy to bless the whole

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world, I think, with these ideas.

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So thank you for that.

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Now we talked about these four tenets and I think you explained them quite beautifully.

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But after Christmas is over.

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And we go through the four Sundays of advent and we enter into January and at least here

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in Canada, it's pretty dark.

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It's pretty bleak.

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How do I'm not sure about Missouri, but I know that here in Canada, January can be a

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kind of a dull, dreary, cold, even isolating month for many people.

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How do we carry this truth that we experienced through the advent conspiracy into our coming

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months and even throughout the year?

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Even in the middle of January, let's continue to worship.

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Let's continue to focus on this king that has he's brought us this life that yes, we

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have eternal life, but that life starts now.

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So let's celebrate what it is that he's doing now.

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I do think just in a really practical way, one of the things that happens if we do this

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is that we don't wake up in January and open our credit card bills and think, what on earth

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have I done?

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I really think there's a different level of relief.

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There's a chance that our breathing go, okay, okay, we had great Christmas and we didn't

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wear ourselves out and overspend.

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So there's that.

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But I also think, remember some of those relational gifts.

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If we're in the process of giving these relational gifts, well, they have a lifespan of their

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own.

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And I would say if that's the case, then let's be looking forward to some of that.

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When are you going to go on that cooking class with your friend?

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When are you going to be able to go out and ice skate together?

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When are you going to be able to go and to do this thing together?

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When is somebody going to say, you know what, you gave us a game night and you said we were

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all going to play games that night.

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Well, this seems like the perfect night because it's pretty wintry out there.

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Do you have any idea how wonderfully, like your kids are going to love that night because

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it's like, here we go.

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We said that was the gift.

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Here it is.

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We're going to do this tonight.

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And right now in the middle of January or February, you are celebrating that relational

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gift that you gave in December.

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And so I think that that's a part of the echo.

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And then the last thing I would say is keep as a church telling stories of how Christmas

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was different.

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Keep telling stories of how God met you in those sacrificial moments and keep telling

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stories as a church of what's echoing into your community because you're loving all.

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At our church, stories are the rocket fuel.

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I can teach all day long, but when we tell a story of what God is doing, that's what

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gets people inspired.

400
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That's when they go, wait a minute, we're not crazy for trying this.

401
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:17,280
And so I think telling those stories of how your generosity is touching lives in your

402
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:23,200
community or around the world, however you all choose to do this, I'm telling you, you'll

403
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:28,440
be celebrating this whole idea of how you went through Advent.

404
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,280
You'll be celebrating it far past December 25th.

405
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:33,280
Wow.

406
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:34,280
Thank you.

407
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:35,280
And I think you're right about those stories.

408
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,240
Jesus himself was the ultimate storyteller, wasn't he?

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He told stories.

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That's how he engaged us.

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So you're right.

412
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And hopefully we have some good stories to even share with you after all this is said

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and done.

414
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:49,160
I would love to hear them.

415
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:50,160
We would love to do that.

416
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,200
Now, before we wrap up, Greg, I do want to wrap it back to that invitation that you had

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00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,600
on the website for the Advent Conspiracy.

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And it said to be a part of a different story this Christmas, inviting us in to be one that

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00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,360
celebrates our King and brings hope to the watching world.

420
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And I love that watching world.

421
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What is your hope for those people who are part of the watching world this Christmas?

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00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,040
Yeah.

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00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:22,880
My hope for them is that they would honestly be able to watch the way we who follow Jesus

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00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,600
celebrate his entering into the story.

425
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:35,880
I want them to see that the way that Jesus entered into this story affects the way that

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00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,000
you and I live our everyday lives.

427
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,640
Absolutely, this changes eternity.

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I will never stop telling that story.

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But the way that Jesus loves me changes the way that I live today and the way I live with

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00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,400
other people today.

431
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,920
And so this watching world gets to look at us and see a completely different life because

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00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:04,240
you and I are serving and loving and listening and laughing and lamenting and crying and

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00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,040
giving and sharing differently.

434
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:15,080
And I want a watching world to watch the followers of Jesus celebrate and become intrigued with

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00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,240
who he is.

436
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:21,120
I want them to know that hope is more than a word and that if they begin to take steps

437
00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:27,200
on their spiritual journey towards him, well, that changes everything, doesn't it?

438
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:34,320
So that's my hope is that a watching world would begin to notice who Jesus is and just

439
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,320
how much he can mean to them.

440
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,320
It's exciting.

441
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,360
Thank you, Greg.

442
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:40,840
Thank you so much for your insights.

443
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:41,840
Wow.

444
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,040
I think that we've got a lot to look forward to and to see what God and the Holy Spirit

445
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,000
has for us here at Trinity Church, streetsville.

446
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,560
So just thank you for your time.

447
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,440
I know you're a missed guy.

448
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:53,880
No, I'm so grateful.

449
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:59,120
And as you mentioned, I can't wait to hear stories of what God's going to do in your

450
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:00,120
church.

451
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:01,120
It'll be beautiful.

452
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:02,720
We'll be sure to share those with you.

453
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,880
So anyway, we'll be in touch and thank you again for your time, Greg.

454
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:06,880
Thank you.

455
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,340
All right.

456
00:27:09,340 --> 00:27:10,480
So that was Greg Holder.

457
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,960
Again, he was one of the founders of the movement that we're calling the Advent Conspiracy,

458
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:21,960
where we are invited to worship fully, to spend less, to give more and to love all.

459
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,760
And here at Trinity, we're going to be joining the Advent Conspiracy starting December 3rd.

460
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,040
That's the first Sunday of Advent.

461
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,940
And we invite all of you to come and join in this conspiracy with us.

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00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:53,280
So we'll see you then.