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You know, it's weird hearing people on different mics, but I'm like, also the same sort of mentality.

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I think different mics do better things for different people.

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Cause I think if you were to do a podcast or a radio, radio play or music, it really depends on the voice and what microphone suits that voice and that dynamic.

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Because some microphones are better for some people.

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Like I would only ever use because of my voice range, probably like ones that have a lot of bass and can pick up that bass level and depth.

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Because they compliment my voice more.

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But if I had something which was more about the high ends, I'd be like, why did I get a mic that picks up like high ends?

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It would just be no point.

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Yeah.

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And I'm sure that like the same principle applies to you when you sort of do like any form of dealing with microphones.

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Actually, I bought my microphone kind of blind.

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Like, I got a Neumann mic.

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I bought it like online and I picked it up from Taramara Music.

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And I was sort of looking at YouTube reviews and other Google reviews for quite a while, or like a week or two weeks or something.

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And I think the thing that swayed me to this particular mic, I think it's a TLM 49.

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I kind of forget like what I have.

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Because you know, like you look through so many different ones and you can't, they all like blur into one.

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But this one, I heard a particular live cover, like a woman who I thought, yeah, similar voice to me was doing a cover of this song.

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I was like, damn, it sounds so beautiful.

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And so that kind of was what pushed me to get that mic.

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Yeah. Do you think, do you think like, have you listened to yourself sing into it and talk into it and sort of like, have you loved it yet?

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I don't know.

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I mean, it's good because I don't actually use a pop filter with it.

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Because it doesn't seem to pick up the S sounds like my old mic did.

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And it was so nasty.

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So it's sort of got a softer top end.

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Yeah.

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Which I think is good.

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For me, I think it's like pretty easy to work with.

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Like it sounds pretty good and it doesn't require a lot of mangling or like working with it afterwards to get it to sound good.

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Like in the mix.

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Yeah.

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That's good.

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From what I can tell, like, you know, this is the things we do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental health, and all of that fun jazzy stuff.

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Today, I've got my special guest and friend, Isavina.

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Hello.

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Hello.

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Thanks for having me.

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No, thank you for coming on.

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Now, first major question, I'm going to get you to tell the internet and all the years and people who don't know you, who you are and what you do.

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Well, I didn't prepare for this one.

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I'm Isavina.

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I am a music producer, songwriter, singer, performer.

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What else do I do?

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Just those things.

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Yeah, I can't even, I'm drawing a blank, but I think that's enough.

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I also organize the Ableton news group, Sydney.

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Ooh.

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I work at APRA AMCOS where we look after musicians' rights and songwriting royalties.

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I think that's most of what I do.

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Goodness.

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That's actually a lot.

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Yeah.

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You're like, oh, I do, I don't do that.

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I'm like, oh, I'm not going to do that.

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You're like, oh, I do, I don't do that much.

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I do a lot.

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I mean, like what came first?

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What was it?

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Cause like where, cause royalties is a whole other, whole other movement in terms of music rights.

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What came first in terms of interests and trajectory, I guess.

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I started with like in primary school with like school band.

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Did that, moved into orchestras in my teenage years and loved being in an orchestra.

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Like I just loved making sounds with other people, like in a big group.

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It's amazing that feeling.

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And I was kind of at a crossroads in like year 12 being like, oh, should I do music as a career?

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Oh, that sounds crazy.

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Right.

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Or should I do science?

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Cause I love science and I'm quite good at it.

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Something in me just couldn't quite bring myself to go to, go to uni and study science.

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Like I think I knew even back then I would regret it and I would always wish I had done music.

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And so I decided to honor that at the time.

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And then I went to uni and I studied music.

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I probably didn't need to go and study music, but I think it was good for me in a way.

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Like going, going to uni is like a great experience.

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I mean, there's lots of negatives about uni, like the debt and like all that sort of stuff.

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But there's a lot of positives, like it gives you a lot of time to think and learn.

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Yeah.

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Without the pressure of like working.

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Cause it's kind of understood if you're a student, like you're studying, so you're not working full time.

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Like, no.

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And that means you get like lots of spare time to like watch TV and like, sort yourself out and think about, think about things like, like, what's the best way to do it?

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Like, sort yourself out and think about, think about things like have a lot of free time and work on whatever you want to work on.

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I guess.

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Yeah.

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I kind of wish I used more of that time.

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I only really kicked myself on the ass in like the last year of uni where I was like, right, we're doing this now.

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I was so scared before that.

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Like, I didn't really believe I could.

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I thought I was too old, even though I was only like 20.

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Was that a, do you think a confidence thing?

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Or do you think it was kind of just comparing yourself to like others that you see in the social world?

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Yeah, like definitely comparison, which is why I try not to compare myself anymore.

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But like people like flume that we're producing since like age 11.

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And I was like, well, I haven't even started and I'm 20.

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Like I've run out of time.

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Cause with like women in particular, it's like, there is that kind of, it's so terrible, but like when you're like kind of age out of the industry.

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And I was sort of like, oh, you know, it's too late.

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I don't really believe that anymore, but it is something that people think, unfortunately.

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And like, feels like 30 is like the deadline for females in the performing arts industries.

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But yeah, I don't believe that anymore.

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I think like there's plenty of artists that have like Caroline Polacek who's in her late thirties, who's amazing.

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And I think it's like kind of for the better that, that it like, she's matured, she's worked on a craft for so long.

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And it's like for the better for the art that she's making.

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And now she's finally getting an audience.

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Anyway, this is a long tangent.

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I love it though.

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Thank you.

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So coming back to uni, I decided in the last year of uni to do an honors year on production creative process.

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Yeah.

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And that was purely because I wanted to work towards my honors year while spending as much time as possible in the studio.

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Cause at that point I was like, yeah, I really want to be a producer because I want to compose music.

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Yeah.

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But be able to like shape the sounds and hear it right then, not like writing for an orchestra where you're like kind of imagining it.

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And then you'll have to like send it off and then they'll play it.

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And it was like very kind of intangible, I guess.

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And yeah, I was like, yeah, I really want to be a producer.

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I was really loving some different electronic artists.

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And I just was like, yeah, well, if I'm doing it, I'm doing it.

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I'm going to put in like, I put in lots of hours at the studio in that year.

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And because it was to my honors, I was like, it felt like it wasn't all about the studio.

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It wasn't all about me or it wasn't all for me.

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Like it wasn't as much of an ego thing.

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It's like, well, I'm doing this honors year anyway.

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I may as well do something that I'm interested in because it means that I will probably get a good mark.

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Yeah.

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As opposed to trying to force myself to do the right thing, whatever that is with like academic stuff.

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Cause yeah.

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So I did that and it went really well.

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I ended up getting like a HD.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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Oh my God.

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Yeah.

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Honors is hard though.

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After that, basically it was like, all right, what am I going to do now?

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And it was in a weird time.

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It was kind of really hard to find work at that point.

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It was like 2019.

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So pre-pandemic, there wasn't many jobs going and there was super competitive.

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It's so weird to think about that now, but it was, and I couldn't find like

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works. I was doing temporary work.

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I was working on like the elections.

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Oh, wow.

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Yeah.

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And so they'd just be like two or three months sort of temporary contract things.

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And then I'd have nothing.

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And then I'd be like, okay, time to work on music.

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And then I get another sort of contract and then I'd be working on music.

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And that was how it went for a while.

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And then yeah, I was doing like temporary reception sort of stuff.

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Like it was pretty shit actually.

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It was pretty shit actually, like I just get called up on the morning of,

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and then I'd be sent off wherever to do my little reception job for the day.

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Oh God.

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Yeah. I was like, ugh.

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Yeah. It wasn't great.

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Like I just didn't like not having a routine or knowing where I was going to be or

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knowing if I would have anything on.

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Cause it would kind of like the night before I'd be like, okay, another day to work on my music.

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And then at like 7.30 that morning, they'd be like, all right, we need you to go there.

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And I'd be so devour of like, oh man, no, I can't work on my music today.

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Yeah.

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Anyway. And then obviously like pandemic hit and there was none of that work anymore.

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Cause office is closed, blessing in disguise.

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But no, I was like really at a loose end because I was like,

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what the hell am I going to do now?

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Like there's really nothing I can do.

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I can't get a job now.

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Like it's pretty much impossible.

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Yeah.

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At least until this, whatever this is.

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Subsides.

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It blows over because we didn't know how long it was going to last.

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And unfortunately, like it wasn't a very productive time.

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I know a lot of creators felt that way.

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Like even though we had all this like extra time or in some cases, like limitless free time,

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didn't like, didn't really happen.

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Yeah.

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Which is a shame.

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And then after that later on that year, I joined a course, I'd say like an online course called

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Finish More Music.

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Oh yeah.

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And it really like broke me out of my rut and gave me like a structure to start like finishing

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some of the ideas I'd had and like start making new ideas and kind of like, it was like a really

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nice sort of tie into my honors thesis in a way, like creative process.

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And then this is like a course that's kind of like similar, but specifically for like dance music.

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Oh, cool.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, it was really cool.

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It was a good find.

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And I'm still with them and the way they, like they've got course materials on their website,

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but they also have a Facebook group.

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And so every month you can submit up to two tracks you've been working on that are like kind of in

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like 80% finished state and then people in the community give you feedback on it.

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Oh cool.

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And in return you give feedback as well, but it's like structured.

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So the feedback, there's like five questions you have to answer.

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So it's like very structured and it's very clever.

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That's great.

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Yeah.

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And so just going through that like every month just really helped to get me back on track.

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And then improve my skills and get multiple perspectives.

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And I mean, during all this time, like, I think my, cause talking about feedback,

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I'd be sending my music to friends and family and the sort of feedback you'd get,

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we're just sort of disheartening.

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Um, just cause they didn't know how to give good feedback and that it wasn't to their taste and

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all that sort of stuff.

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And yeah, like back then it probably wasn't that good, whatever.

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It's all right.

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But like, um, yeah, like I was going somewhere with this.

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Yeah.

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No, I like, I like it where it's going.

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I mean, I do, I do think that also, you know, do you think that was a confidence thing as

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00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:15,440
well?

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Because like, you know, you know, pre pandemic as well, the confidence, you know, you clearly

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growing confidence on, on how you output stuff and how you see yourself, but you know, pre

219
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pandemic, I think there's a lot of, you know, as you say, there was a lot of competitive

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nature and I don't know, there's still a little bit of that today where it's like, you know,

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everyone's still trying to like break it into the industry and everything.

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But I feel like, um, maybe it's the self reflection and, and opportunities that you've had that sort

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of see, you know, especially because I know you're on a personal level, but I see a lot of

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you know, it's sort of benefited you to kind of have that self reflection period and be

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like, okay, well, you know, you know, time does help and time, you know, working on your

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own projects and having like, as weird as it sounds like having a pandemic kind of gives

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you the opportunity to reflect, even though it's not great and you have like months of,

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you know, not creating it's kind of the beneficial thing.

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Cause then you can stop, find out what's, you know, like that course and everything

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00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:25,040
that's, you know, trajectory really kind of pushes you back into what works in your own

231
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,680
mind and your own taste and then get feedback, which, cause I mean like constructive feedback

232
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:30,480
is great.

233
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:36,720
A lot of the problem most people have and family and friends just kind of, it's, it's

234
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,880
from a, you know, an audience perspective.

235
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:44,880
Um, and while that's great, it doesn't really give you the opportunity to be like, you know,

236
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,040
because audience perspective, I always feel is a little bit like, you know, some people

237
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,080
are going to love it and hate it.

238
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,840
Like it's not, you know, because that's the point of taste, you know, it just varies from

239
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,200
person to person, but you want family and friends to be just supportive.

240
00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,120
Yeah, definitely.

241
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,400
Like this is swinging to like my latest song.

242
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,400
I sent it to some of my friends on release day and one of them was like, oh yeah, it's

243
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,000
nice, but I like your other stuff better.

244
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,000
And I was kind of like, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that.

245
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:23,040
I mean, I do always appreciate honesty, but it's like, I do think, and maybe it's just

246
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:24,640
cause I've been doing this for a while.

247
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,680
I think it's so important to support people on release day.

248
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:34,960
Um, and if, you know, a week later, you want to say maybe in person is probably better.

249
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,680
It's like, oh, you know, I like to track, but I do like the other one.

250
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,040
I think I like the other one's better.

251
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:40,080
That would be like, oh, okay.

252
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:45,760
But I think, I think it's important to like support people on release day or like at the

253
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,400
gig and try and be really positive.

254
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,000
I think it's, I think it's, I think I agree with that.

255
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,080
And I think it's also just really good to support people regardless.

256
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,840
Um, because what's it saying with like, when we create stuff, it's like wearing your heart

257
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:02,880
and your slave kind of thing.

258
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,600
Cause I think, I don't know.

259
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,680
And not, this is not every creative, but I feel like this is like, I think it's

260
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,480
like, I feel like this is more us, um, then, you know, then some, but you, we're very

261
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,520
emotionally driven people.

262
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:21,440
So therefore emotions kind of, you know, we validate ourselves through our output and

263
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,080
what we've done and creatively how people see it.

264
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:30,080
Um, but there's pros and cons to that, which is like the pros are, you know, you can

265
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:35,920
either be excited and elated that everyone loves it, or you can have one bad criticism

266
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,600
and it just like, topples you.

267
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:43,520
Um, and I feel like the thing that I've noticed, especially like listening to your music

268
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:49,600
over the course that we've known each other, it has gotten progressively better and cleaner.

269
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:55,120
And I think I can tell your skillset has gotten better and from a, you know, like a good mix

270
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,760
and, you know, and, and the way it's written and the way it sounds.

271
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,600
And I think that evolution is very interesting, but I guess when people don't always have

272
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,600
that evolution and they don't understand that evolution that someone's gone to, and

273
00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,440
especially because artists evolve, we change, we're constantly not going to be the same

274
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,360
as our previous work.

275
00:17:11,360 --> 00:17:15,200
Um, you know, and I think, cause then that's boring.

276
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,920
Like we don't feel like we move on as artists.

277
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,040
So it's kind of ironic that friends are going, Oh, I don't like it as much as your old work.

278
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,360
Like, do you feel like that's a little bit of a, Oh, should I just remain the same?

279
00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:28,720
Or is that what people want?

280
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,880
Or should I, or, you know, do I do what I want?

281
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:36,640
Um, yeah, I did get another comment from another friend who did say that she preferred my dancier

282
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,520
stuff than the pop music.

283
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,120
Um, but I'm just like, Oh, okay.

284
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:41,840
That's fine.

285
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:42,720
Whatever.

286
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:49,360
You know, like that, that new song is kind of like my first pop track.

287
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:52,640
So I'm like, yeah, I mean, it probably, yeah, it could be better.

288
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,360
Like I know that, like, no worries.

289
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:56,640
It's my first pop track.

290
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:57,920
Like, of course it could be better.

291
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,960
But I mean, that's trial and error.

292
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,360
That's like, it's still really good, but like there's elements that I think about now.

293
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:06,800
I'm like, Hmm.

294
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:07,360
Yep.

295
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:12,160
I can, I can see how I could have improved these little bits.

296
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:17,920
Like, I won't like list them all off, but, but, but, you know, like you with time and

297
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,880
like distance, you can, and more experience, you can hear like the different things that

298
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,160
you could have done better.

299
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:24,400
Yeah.

300
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:30,720
But I'm always thinking like, there's so many people that are so scared to even release

301
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,320
things and I just don't care.

302
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:35,680
I'm like, I'm just going to put it out.

303
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:37,440
It's good enough.

304
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:38,320
It'll do.

305
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:44,560
Like, you know, people have resonated with it at the live show before, before it's been

306
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,440
released on the platforms, like Spotify and all that.

307
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,520
And so it's like, yeah, yeah, it's good enough.

308
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:58,240
I know my vocal performance can always be improved and that's okay.

309
00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:58,800
That's fine.

310
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,640
Like that's the journey, I guess it is hard though.

311
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,280
Sometimes I cringe when I listen to my voice.

312
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:12,240
And I find it really hard in saying, in saying all of this, I find it really hard to listen

313
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:13,440
back to my own music.

314
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:14,560
Really?

315
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:15,840
It makes me very uncomfortable.

316
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,040
I wonder, is that a self-reflection thing?

317
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:19,680
Do you think?

318
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:21,280
I don't know.

319
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,320
I think it's like, I'm so close to it.

320
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,080
Like, it's sort of like seeing myself naked.

321
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,160
Like, I don't know.

322
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:33,200
I don't know how to describe it.

323
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,240
It's just like, oh, I don't want to look at that.

324
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,800
Like, yeah, I don't know.

325
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,600
Sometimes I might listen to my voice and I'm like, oh, I don't know.

326
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:46,000
I might listen.

327
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:53,040
No, so I think what it also is, is like, I love performing my music and I'm like, hell

328
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:54,240
yeah, this is great.

329
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,800
As soon as I switch into becoming a consumer of my own music, something about that just

330
00:19:58,800 --> 00:19:59,520
doesn't feel right.

331
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:02,080
I think, yeah.

332
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,120
I think that would be very like, if you did that and you consumed your own music for a

333
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:12,320
constant like, nick of time, it's kind of like, I don't think any artist is really

334
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:13,120
comfortable.

335
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:15,920
Otherwise, you're incredibly vain, I think.

336
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,200
But it's the same.

337
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,200
Like, I think it's interesting.

338
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:26,240
There's a level of, I can't watch too much of the things I've made over and over and

339
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,080
over before I kind of go, oh God, I see all the faults with them and stuff like that.

340
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:36,480
And I think while it's nice to get feedback, I'm definitely not sitting there going, you

341
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:37,520
know, watch all my stuff.

342
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,720
Like, I just kind of release it and then hope that people enjoy it and stuff like that.

343
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:49,360
But I think it's like when you nitpick everything, it really does kind of like spoil it for you.

344
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,400
And I think you'd be mad.

345
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,480
You know, I think it's also just how we see ourselves.

346
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,960
Like, because there's a little bit of imposter syndrome and they must be with you as well.

347
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:10,000
Because you must still think that little you versus big you now and the sort of dissociation

348
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,800
when you hear something, you know, of music that you've written or listened to your voice.

349
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,880
And there must be a little bit of like imposter syndrome when that does well and people go,

350
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:19,520
oh, that's really good.

351
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,680
And you're just like, that's nice.

352
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:27,120
But like, you're not thinking yourself, I guess, up here in the high, like the high

353
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:32,480
status where everyone, you know, where I guess, you know, it goes back to that thing of making

354
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,680
it and becoming, you know, an independent artist and everything.

355
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,680
I think while you don't see that you are one.

356
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,560
And but is that imposter syndrome?

357
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,200
Like, do you feel like on a like a daily basis?

358
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:46,240
No, no, I don't.

359
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,240
I don't get that too much anymore.

360
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,720
But I guess in certain situations, I get it more.

361
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:59,440
Like when I'm playing a gig, I feel pretty good usually, but I might feel nervous like

362
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,080
in the lead up like during the day.

363
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,640
But when I'm actually doing it feels pretty good.

364
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,040
And I don't feel like a fraud or anything.

365
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:08,480
I'm like, yeah, I belong on this stage.

366
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:09,200
Like, fuck yeah.

367
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:09,520
Sorry.

368
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,040
Yeah, no swear, swear, swear, swear.

369
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,080
Don't worry.

370
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:12,400
Love it.

371
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:19,920
But like on the flip side, and I have no problem like coming on a podcast or doing stuff like

372
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,600
that or like hosting the user group.

373
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,440
I'm like, yes, I do belong here.

374
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:29,120
But like when it when it kind of kicks in for me is like at a industry conference or something.

375
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:34,000
I'm like, I don't know if I'm quite ready to be here or if I'm on the same.

376
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,760
I'm in the same league as these people.

377
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,200
Like industry conferences are so weird.

378
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:41,600
Such a weird mood.

379
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,720
Like everyone's trying to like sort of suss like who you are, like where you're at and

380
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:47,120
all this.

381
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,000
I think that's where the competition kind of comes in a bit.

382
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:52,880
Yeah.

383
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:53,920
So they're interesting.

384
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,760
And I always feel like I should put myself out there, but I'm like, no, it's just, it's

385
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,760
just a weird, weird vibe there.

386
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:03,120
Yeah.

387
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:08,400
I mean, like it's interesting as well, because I feel like there is this sort of big, you

388
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,960
know, when, when you meet execs or you meet like people of like certain kind of a caliber,

389
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:14,400
it is very weird.

390
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,560
You do kind of see this sort of like, oh, but I think it is also because everyone's from

391
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,600
a business perspective, like you're trying to find a, you know, you're trying to be a

392
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,600
product and you're trying to be sellable.

393
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:29,440
And that's, I guess a little bit more, it doesn't feel like art.

394
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:30,960
It feels like business.

395
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:31,520
Yes.

396
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:37,680
And I think that's where it sort of goes stale for me when it's in everything becomes about,

397
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,960
I guess profit.

398
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:39,280
Yeah.

399
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,000
It's like cognitive dissonance kind of thing.

400
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,440
Like, what's this?

401
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:44,480
Isn't this is weird?

402
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:52,960
Like, I think you're sort of mentally shifting a bit and it's like, oh, no, this isn't me.

403
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:59,920
But you sort of put in this situation where it's like, sell yourself in 30 seconds, like

404
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:05,120
your elevator pitch and it's like, nah, I'd rather just like get a coffee and chat.

405
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:05,620
Yeah.

406
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,040
It's, and rather than going like dress up to the nines, hoping that someone would be like,

407
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,280
oh, you're, you know,

408
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,800
I literally went to the conference, like pretty much how I am now, like with my jeans and like

409
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,920
ASIC sneakers on and I felt really bad.

410
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:22,480
Really?

411
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:22,800
Yeah.

412
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,080
I was like, oh, I should have dressed up like white because I just wanted to be comfortable.

413
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,200
Cause I was like, it's probably going to be a long day on my feet.

414
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,200
And then I was like, Ooh, there's some people that have really like dressed up and they look

415
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:41,920
legit artists and here's me like really sort of feeling a bit like an imposter because of that.

416
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,600
Yeah. So I don't know.

417
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,480
That's a tidbit for you.

418
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:54,800
I mean, do you, I guess with the, you know, it goes back to that comparison thing and

419
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,480
always comparing yourself to others, even though you don't do it as much, but I mean,

420
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,600
you know, that's the prime example, isn't it?

421
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,120
Like when you go to a conference and you're sort of like looking and comparing yourself to everyone

422
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:10,000
else, um, like you see it, you know, Emmy awards and you see it at like constantly,

423
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,120
like when you got, you know, like social events and stuff like that on, you know,

424
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,920
and I guess that we have that very American vision, um, of the industry as well on Australia.

425
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,560
I don't know if it's just like my lens on everything, but I think that Australia really,

426
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,280
you know, in terms of the industry, especially in the music and the arts industry, like once

427
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,800
you become a profit to someone, it's, it really takes you away from the independent artist and

428
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:38,560
the creative freedom that you had. Like, would you agree with that when a lot of, a lot of,

429
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,800
sometimes you feel like some artists don't have as much creative freedom anymore because of like

430
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,720
labels or, you know, who they've signed up with?

431
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:51,600
Um, I'm not sure. I think labels like can control things like release schedules. Um,

432
00:25:51,600 --> 00:26:00,800
so like timing of releases and, um, I guess they would have the power to say no to a lot of things.

433
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,000
Um, cause they control the budget basically.

434
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:04,560
Yeah.

435
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:11,600
So, yeah, I mean, cause I don't have that firsthand experience and I don't know a lot of people that

436
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,760
are in labels, so I haven't been able to hear those conversations. So I'm probably not the best

437
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:21,200
person to like give you a definite answer cause I'm just like, I don't know. I don't know.

438
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,680
But would you, would you feel, I guess then my next question to that, would you feel like you

439
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,440
should sign up to a label and then have, you know, or do you feel like you enjoy being,

440
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,480
having that creative freedom at the moment?

441
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,360
I think it would be pretty good to be in a label. Um, but you'd have to like really

442
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:45,680
negotiate the terms of that, I think, and be really careful. Um, yeah. So I don't know.

443
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:50,880
Yeah, it's tricky, but I think it's probably, I think the benefits would probably outweigh

444
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,840
the negatives, but like, you've got to make sure that they're going to do stuff for you.

445
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,320
And they're not going to try and control you. And you kind of get like,

446
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,960
like, I don't know, be really clear about what they're going to do for you. Like, are they

447
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,520
going to do two albums or like just one or cause like, if you can lock down like two albums,

448
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,480
I feel like that would be really good. Um, yeah.

449
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:14,480
Yeah, that's a good point.

450
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,480
Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the dream, isn't it? Um,

451
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,440
but no, you should like, you should push for that. I think. Yeah. Yeah.

452
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:26,800
Yeah. I mean, like I, I, I absolutely agree. And I think that, you know, it's kind of one of those

453
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,760
things that I just remember, like a lot of people wanting labels, especially when like left high

454
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,280
school and was like, if you're in a band or something, or you're an independent artist,

455
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,600
everyone was like, Oh, I can't wait to like, you know, sign up a label. I think it's also because

456
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,400
I graduated in 2010. So it was like, there was a lot less like digital platforms. There was like

457
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,440
an Apple, but no one knew how to get onto Apple, like as a platform. I think it's, I think everything's

458
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,160
much more accessible now than, you know, like, especially because streaming is such a easy

459
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,520
interface. Like you can get songs on the Spotify pretty easily now. Um, yeah. And people do listen

460
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:05,600
to it and, you know, and it gets a lot of critical feedback as well as, um, but I think back in the

461
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:12,720
day, it was kind of like, it was such a negotiation to get anything on like platforms. And I remember

462
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,520
just going to a lot of friends, like little launches and getting their little CDs that were

463
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,880
clearly recorded on like, you know, those rewritable discs that you bought from office works.

464
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:29,520
And well, it was great. Um, and it feels like so long ago, I think the ability to kind of like

465
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:36,080
look through my Apple music and or Spotify and go, Oh, okay. I've got, I have music. I've got like,

466
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:41,200
you know, I can scroll through what I've got in terms of artists that I personally know,

467
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,800
as well as artists that I don't know. And I think there's a lot more like freedom, I guess, to

468
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,680
quickly type in a name. Whereas back in the day, you couldn't find, I remember I couldn't,

469
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,840
not for the life of me find some of my friends bands, even though I knew they were on like,

470
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:02,640
you know, garage. But, um, I was that site. Um, uh, there was one site that used to be kind of like,

471
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,880
just dump your music onto, I can't remember what it was called. SoundCloud? No, SoundCloud was one

472
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,840
of them. But there was like a few sort of like low end. And I remember like, um, you know, like

473
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:17,440
Double J and Triple J were the sort of like, um, but you know, um, unearthed and everything like,

474
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,840
and that's where some people got their music on. Um, and you know, they're all great platforms,

475
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:27,200
but I do remember like, you know, back in the day, it was like, I guess there was a lot more

476
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,920
creative freedom to who got what on. Um, but now it's sort of like a really random choice about

477
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:37,200
what you hear on the radio. And like, I have found some of the best music by just happenstance,

478
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,320
like by, you know, like it's not quite as simple as just listening to the radio anymore. It's kind

479
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,280
of just scrolling past and the algorithm goes, these independent artists you might like because

480
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,600
of, you know, they listen to this, this, this, and this, you have similar tastes. So it will kind of

481
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:57,920
list you how you want and who you want to see quite quickly. Have you found like that be an

482
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:03,120
interesting thing, especially like in terms of, you know, your own input to your own music now

483
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,080
and listening to artists that necessarily you wouldn't have thought of?

484
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:14,000
Not really. I found the opposite. Like I find that Spotify doesn't really give me any new people.

485
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,400
Like it'll really give me a lot of the same people I've been listening to. Um,

486
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,200
yeah. So that's been like at the last little while, cause I've started listening to like the

487
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:32,400
happy mix, the moody mix, the whatever mix, because it's sort of like a mix. Like sometimes I just

488
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:39,760
want a mix of music for when I'm like going for a walk or working or whatever. And cause I don't

489
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,720
know, sometimes I don't want to commit to like a full album or something or like, I don't make

490
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,120
as many playlists anymore cause I have so many playlists, but I sort of have stopped trying to

491
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:58,240
curate. Maybe that's because I'm not finding the gems because Spotify is not giving me the gems,

492
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,000
but um, you should write a very lengthy email to Spotify saying, give me some gems,

493
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:08,640
give me the gems Spotify. Um, so how do I find music? I don't know. I don't.

494
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,760
Really? I don't think so. Like,

495
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:19,120
I think the only real thing is like, if you're listening to like Sam Fender, who I love and

496
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:24,480
you're, maybe you've made like a playlist of like four Sam Fender tracks. And then when it goes to

497
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,280
the end of the playlist, it starts the playlist radio. So then it gives you songs that like sort

498
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:35,120
of might fit on that playlist, but aren't on the playlist. And that's like probably like the ideal

499
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:42,560
discovery for me. Um, cause yeah, like a lot of the Spotify playlists I'm not super into.

500
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:50,560
Um, yeah, I don't know. Like I was rinsing like indie pop that Spotify plays for a while. Cause I

501
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:57,280
love that sort of sound and um, but yeah, there's some other players I'm not really that into that

502
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:02,240
Spotify have. And then there's lots of stuff that I just listened to over and over and I feel like

503
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:10,160
I'm not getting any new sort of stuff. I don't know. It's just, I wish I was, but maybe it's

504
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,520
also me just getting old and I just want to hear the same old 40 songs.

505
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:20,160
You're hardly that old as well. Like we sound like we're like fucking ancient and you're just

506
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:26,720
like, maybe it's just me getting old. Um, but no, I do agree with that. I do, I do think that you

507
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:32,640
kind of, I guess, yeah, it's like, you limit yourself to what you can listen to as well. Um,

508
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,200
I do think these platforms are built for the young though, like super young. So, you know, like,

509
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,440
are we making, are we making content for the next generation? Yes.

510
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,440
Yeah. Cause like you'll see the Spotify playlist and like the little captions they have, they're

511
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:51,680
so Jen, whatever Jen Zed or zoom or whatever they call it. They just look so zoom and I'm like,

512
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,200
okay, so this is where we're at. Like in the last like year or two, it's like switched. Yeah. I mean

513
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:03,440
like it does kind of always make me feel really old when, you know, like, um, my cousin's kids are

514
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,920
like, you know, 12 and 10 and they're telling me about things that I don't even know. And I'm like,

515
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,640
oh my God, I actually am old because, you know, they're telling me about music and, and, you know,

516
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:19,040
and stuff, especially like, I guess, you know, I remember listening to music that was made in the

517
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,360
seventies and sixties with like my parents would listen to it because that was what I grew up with.

518
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,200
So it was like, you know, in the car, you'd have the cassette in the tape player and you just listen

519
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:35,040
to what my dad had on loop. Um, and I guess now with the amazing free access and you know, um,

520
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,320
it is easier for kids to just kind of like discover artists, but they're also like,

521
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,880
you know, everywhere, like friends just recommend music now. They're just like, oh, I heard this

522
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:50,400
great song on YouTube or I heard it on like blah, blah, blah. So they'll just send it to, um, you

523
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:56,080
know, each other. And I guess like, I feel a little lost as an adult of what, cause I didn't, I,

524
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:01,200
I didn't, I didn't have digital like platforms or, you know, really a CD collection until I was about

525
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:07,840
16 and now I feel very old. Um, I still have all my CDs, but I like never play them.

526
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:13,040
Cause you know, it's like, it's all on Spotify. So what's the point, but are you a classic person

527
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:18,720
though? Do you still like collecting CDs? I used to, but I haven't, I've stopped myself,

528
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,840
which is probably a very good thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's fair. I mean, you know,

529
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:31,760
we do live in the digital age. Um, I mean, when you make music though, like, do you have a good

530
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:39,280
filing system? Do you have a good, um, no, not really. It's pretty, pretty shitty.

531
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:45,120
I'm just trying to think of what I do. I like label the project file by date,

532
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:54,880
reverse date, 2022 month, day, day. But the thing is like, when you're like starting a song,

533
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,800
you have no idea what you're doing. You're like, you're like, you're like, you're like,

534
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:04,160
when you're like starting a song, you have no idea what it's going to become. And so the sort of name

535
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:11,600
that you'll give it will just be like bumpy groove, something really dumb. Like it's going to be

536
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:18,480
nothing to do with what the song will actually be. So it can be hard to sort of like looking back

537
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:23,760
through your sketches and being like, what the fuck is this? So I think I'd like suggest to like

538
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:33,840
bounce out. And I don't even do this, like export the track is into like a web file or an MP3,

539
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,240
whatever, and have it in your folder. So instead of having to open up the whole project, which can

540
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:42,560
take like 30 seconds or something to load up, you can just quickly press play and be like,

541
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:47,520
oh, that's what that is. I need to get into the habit of doing that. Like I've been thinking

542
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:58,080
about that for ages, but I don't know, maybe I just haven't felt like it. But I can say like,

543
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:08,480
I would, in the past, I would spend like 50 versions on a track, like save as 50 times or more

544
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:16,720
now, six or seven. Really? Yeah. So it's massively dropped. Yeah. Do you know why?

545
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:26,000
I think, well, I'm probably saving as a bit less. So mostly for like major changes.

546
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:34,960
But I think I'm working a lot quicker, getting stuff done quicker. Yeah. That's interesting.

547
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:41,360
I wonder if that was like just, yeah, it sounds like a confidence thing that you just know quicker

548
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:46,400
what works. And I guess when we're younger, we're hesitant. So we're like, here's about a hundred

549
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:53,360
files that we can make sure we've got in case anything gets corrupted. And you'd like agonize

550
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,240
over the smallest choices and be like, I'm going to save a new version just in case. And it's like,

551
00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:06,800
okay, well, calm down. Yeah. So I actually have on my new computer, it's got like two terabytes of

552
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:16,240
storage because I was like, I think it's going to serve me well. I don't want to be scrambling

553
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:21,520
for storage because that was a thing with my old computer. Yeah. It was always like jumping at the

554
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:28,720
top of the sort of like upper limit. Like it was way past what I should have like the operating

555
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:35,600
kind of ideal. I think it's like ideal to not go past like half the storage. And I would go like

556
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,480
pretty much to the full because it was only like two 50. And I was like, that's nothing for like a

557
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:48,480
music production professional like myself. And so that was also why it was such a noisy computer.

558
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:54,240
Yeah. I mean like, you know, cause when did you, you, what got a new one this year? Was it this

559
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:59,760
year that you got the new one? Could have been like the end of last year. Oh, okay. So like 2021.

560
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:07,280
Maybe. Yeah. I mean like, you know, um, but I also think that, you know, when you get a new computer

561
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:13,280
and you know, like it is true because my computer's like capacity is like, it always warns me that I've

562
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:19,760
too much storage and like, oh, that's right. I have like limits on this wonderful device. Um,

563
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,480
but yeah, this is like the problem why it crashes. Um, but it was sort of about like something about

564
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:30,640
files that, you know, in terabytes worth of like data that you strip from it, you know, um,

565
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:37,680
whereas back in the day, I don't know, like used to use floppy disks to kind of install music. It

566
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,640
was like, you know, like your computers couldn't handle half the stuff way that it can now. Um,

567
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:47,440
so it is like amazing that we can have like two terabytes of, you know, worth of storage on a

568
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:56,080
computer. Whether, whether that's, yeah, as you say, sensible to kind of go past your half limit.

569
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,960
Look, yeah. You know, if you don't want your software to crash, sure don't. Yeah. Yeah. That's

570
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,000
the only thing I say. I mean, like in terms of file storage, it's fine, but you know, when you run

571
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:14,720
software, it run, it uses like 50% of your storage base already when it's running. Like it's amazing,

572
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:20,560
but insane capacity to need about half your storage base to kind of run itself. Yeah. Cause there's

573
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:27,120
so many like plugins and background things it's cognitively doing. So it's like, so much smarter

574
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:32,480
than we are. I know it's like, it's thinking 10 times harder. Um, but yeah, because it does all

575
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:38,640
this file system and sort of organizing your files and extracting information from it. It does make

576
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:45,760
it very hard and very easy to crash. Like have you been halfway through a song and it crashed?

577
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:50,400
My new, my new system is pretty stable. Oh, that's good. Which is wonderful.

578
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:58,720
So no, not for a while. I mean, it was pretty bad with the old one. Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's

579
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:04,720
been the horror story that while making his tongue? I don't know if there's been horror stories.

580
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:16,240
I can't even remember, but I do remember this is sort of like, it's not a horror story. It's just

581
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:22,240
like a pain in the bum. Like when I updated the software that I use Ableton to the latest

582
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:33,680
on my old computer, on the laptop, um, it just wouldn't like open like old files from the previous

583
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:39,920
iteration, like live 10, it wouldn't, it wouldn't open in live 11. Oh wow. Okay. Like,

584
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:47,200
like I actually want this stuff in these old files, old project files. Like I want to be

585
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:53,440
able to access that. And so I don't know. It was like some weird thing with one of the plugins

586
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:59,600
that it was not compatible with live 11. And so it was like forced quitting. Like it wasn't even

587
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:06,560
opening. It was like loading up the program. Boom, crash, try it again. Boom, crash every time. And

588
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:13,520
I was like, Oh my God, what is going on? That was a pain. Oh my God. Yeah. And it's all fine now

589
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,920
because of the new. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's just cause like, I think I might've,

590
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,680
as I moved things over to my new system, I think I might've not moved all of the old

591
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:30,960
plugins that are no longer compatible, I guess, with the new software. And so since they're not

592
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:36,880
on the new system, they're not causing trouble. Oh, that's good. Yeah. That's good. They're not

593
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:43,760
causing trouble anymore. I mean, like for you though, and in terms of, I guess your next like

594
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:50,080
10 years trajectory, because you talk about the finite of time. And I want to bring us

595
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:55,200
to that finite of time. Do you see, where do you see yourself in the next like five, 10 years?

596
00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:02,000
Or where ideally do you see yourself? I don't know exactly. I mean, I would like to sort of

597
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:07,200
start playing bigger events and festivals. I think that would be great. Get some radio play,

598
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:13,520
that sort of thing. Maybe do some writing for other people, producing for other people and

599
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:21,440
writing for screen as multiple sources of income. Maybe do a bit of touring, maybe do some teaching.

600
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:31,600
Hmm. So yeah, hopefully all of those things. What are you most nervous about?

601
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:38,000
Um, actually making it. Yeah. Yeah. You don't feel like you've already made it?

602
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:44,080
Making it on a bigger scale. Okay. Like, yeah, I do feel successful. Like I'm doing gigs and

603
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,720
sounding great and all that and releasing music. And that to me is a success. But if I actually

604
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:53,760
make it on like a global scale, that's huge then, then that's like terrifying.

605
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,080
Are you prepared for then fame? Fame, because you know how they talk a lot of the times when

606
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,320
people, you know, like not everyone's used to that level of fame, especially when you really well,

607
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:09,440
like how do you balance that for yourself? Like, are you ready for everyone to know who you are?

608
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:17,520
Well, I mean, I guess with some artists, like they're not that famous and I don't think I'll

609
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:25,680
ever be that famous. Um, but I'll probably, well, hopefully be like somewhat respected and

610
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:37,120
like have an audience that's not like, yeah, I don't know. It's, it's like, I don't expect

611
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:43,840
to be like a super necessarily super mainstream artist, but I hope that I will be at least

612
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:51,920
kind of recognizable, like Caroline Polacek, who I mentioned before, who I guess is still doing

613
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:57,520
pretty well for herself. But, um, yeah, I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of artists now

614
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,560
that are like on lots of festivals, but they're not like the big pop star types. And they're still

615
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,360
really appreciated by like the young indie crowd. You know what I mean? Yeah. But it's not like

616
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:14,400
every, every mom and their three year old would like know, like who they are, like Taylor Swift

617
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:21,520
or Dua Lipa or like, yeah. I mean, like Taylor Swift is also like a phenomenon as well. It's sort

618
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:27,680
of like, you know, it's like Billie Eilish. And I remember years ago, and this actually wasn't even

619
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:32,640
that long ago. I remember when Billie Eilish was a supporting act. Oh yeah. I actually, um,

620
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:39,920
a few years ago, um, there's this thing they, I don't know if they still do it on Triple J,

621
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:46,000
but like on Good Nights, they have a thing where you can be a guest selector of three tracks.

622
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,720
So you get to choose three tracks that they play, and then you do a little spiel. Like you record

623
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:56,800
yourself talking about them. Oh yeah. This was like maybe five years ago, maybe, maybe more,

624
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:02,080
four or five, six. I don't know. And one of my tracks was Billie Eilish, Ocean Eyes. Oh no, no,

625
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:09,120
it was, it was her other one at the time. The one where she's got a belly ache. That's the one.

626
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,920
Oh yeah. Belly ache, which was one of her like really early ones. And I was just going like,

627
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:19,760
yeah, Billie's so cool. She's just like murdered a friend and they're in the boot. And yeah,

628
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:25,040
what a bad ass bitch kind of thing. Like, um, played on the radio, but I don't know.

629
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:32,720
Um, play it on the radio and they did. And I was like, God damn, look at her now. I know.

630
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:36,800
Like, I can't believe I had to sort of like be the one to like, cause they weren't playing,

631
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,840
they weren't playing her on the radio really at that point. So I was like, yeah, you should play

632
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:44,480
her. And I'm like, well, I know it's, and it's, and it's weird now because it's sort of like,

633
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:50,720
you know, you, you know, tickets sell enormously for a huge amount of price, but you know, um,

634
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:56,000
it's one of those things. And I think that, you know, like someone, you know, I think she's also

635
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:01,440
being very well looked after by her and her brother and her family. And I think they've kind of like

636
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:06,720
done the smart thing where they're not trying to be like too much in the limelight all the time,

637
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:12,640
because she's hyper aware of how damaging that can be when you're constantly use their articles

638
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,600
constantly all the time and everyone's sort of criticizing you for how you dress. But I definitely

639
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:22,880
think that, um, yeah, when she was like, um, I remember one of my coworkers years ago, like

640
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,720
I'm talking like maybe even four years ago was just like, Oh yeah, I've been listening to this

641
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:31,520
artist Billy Alice. She's like, great. And I was like, who? Like, and now like everyone's heard of

642
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:37,120
her. So it is kind of one of those things that, and I remember it was so funny because she recently

643
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:44,000
just had her concert in Australia. And I remember I did not see a single person who I didn't, I

644
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:50,000
didn't know who had not gone to her concert. Like everyone had gone and just an attendant. I was

645
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:55,440
like, Oh my God, like, I didn't go, I didn't go. I was pretty, pretty sad. I missed out on tickets.

646
00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:00,880
I mean, I just didn't even know she was coming. I kind of knew, but we were sort of like hesitant

647
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,120
to buy tickets because they would have been outrageously expensive. And I mean, like, I was

648
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:10,720
like, I, you know, had she come for Florence's highest, um, highest hope album, I would have

649
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:16,720
seen her at domain live as a sporting act, but unfortunately I think there was, she couldn't

650
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:20,960
come because she was sick. So that was the only reason, um, or there was a clash. There was

651
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,440
something about a clash anyway, her, she couldn't come her and her brother. So it was like, this is

652
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:30,080
a shame. I don't get to see an artist that a few of my friends are talking about. And now everyone's

653
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:36,640
going to, and we're like, Oh my God, Billy. Um, and it's, I guess for me, it's so weird as well,

654
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:44,720
because there's a bit of, um, I want to say enjoyment out of these artists, cause I, I admire

655
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:49,200
a lot of different artists for a lot of different things, but I guess same with Taylor. I don't put

656
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:55,040
them on pedestals where they're like larger than God. Like, and I feel like a lot of fans do, they

657
00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:04,320
put these artists on pedestals and you know, then it becomes a little bit like, I guess it's, it's

658
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,760
the reason I turn off social media because when people just, you know, it becomes less about

659
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:16,000
appreciating the art and more about appreciating like the glorification of the artist. And I guess

660
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:22,240
that sort of like subtracts from it because like one of my favorite artists is Aurora. I love

661
00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:27,120
Aurora. And, but I also think that she is particularly less talked about than some other

662
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:31,840
artists. And I, you know, I think that's just because of, you know, probably circumstantial

663
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:36,400
and you know, maybe one day she'll be known by like literally everyone in the sun. She's still

664
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:42,080
pretty famous though. She's done really well like on TikTok recently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like

665
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:49,200
TikTok's the world. Yeah. Um, but you're like, do you think for yourself as well? Like, are you

666
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:54,800
hoping that people never kind of put you in this glorious God kind of complex, you know, or go to

667
00:48:54,800 --> 00:49:00,080
your shows and be like, Oh, you know, I, Sabina like, and just know you for that personality

668
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:05,680
rather than the, I guess the stake of your own music. Yeah. No, I've always wanted to be like

669
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:16,080
a legend for the music. Definitely. But not for the figure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know.

670
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:24,160
Like they're sort of one on the same in some sense, but yeah, I'd rather it be more about the music.

671
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:28,960
I think cause I'm just like, man, I'm not even that interesting. Like as a person, like never say

672
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:37,680
that. Nah, but I don't know. Some, some artists, I feel like, Oh, I don't know if I should say this,

673
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:47,440
but like, Peach PRC, like her whole like thing is her persona. And the music to me is secondary.

674
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:54,080
Yeah. And that's sort of how she got really famous because it's all about her story and

675
00:49:54,080 --> 00:50:01,520
she's been through what she's done. Like the drama that's like kind of where, where it's all built

676
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:07,440
up off. And then the music is sort of like an extension of that. Yeah. And that's not what I

677
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:14,720
would want for myself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like that's totally fair. And sort of, I mean, that's

678
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:23,280
yeah, you really, you really don't want it just to be the only thing that people kind of gravitate

679
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:31,840
towards you as your story. Like, and I feel like would there be ever a time where you just, you

680
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:38,000
know, you'd take a break from live performances and then just solely release online? Yeah, I guess.

681
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,880
Like I think I was doing that for a while before I started doing gigs, obviously, and during COVID.

682
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:49,040
Yeah. Not that I released a lot during that time, probably only like one or two songs.

683
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:54,960
But yeah, I mean, potentially if it, I usually go by what I'm feeling. Like if I feel like

684
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,560
I want to do that, then I would do it. I try and do what I want and-

685
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,160
Which is great. Yeah.

686
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:09,520
I mean, you know, that's the, that's the challenge. But yeah, like I guess, I guess the thing,

687
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:21,280
and it's also like the thing is, you know, your persona and presence, I guess when people know

688
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,760
you personally, and then when people, you know, know your stage persona, it's a little bit

689
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:33,280
different, you know, like, and are you sort of intending to always keep that, those two things

690
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,880
separate? Probably. Yeah, probably.

691
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:46,240
Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty quiet. So going on stage, it's actually really easy for me.

692
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,560
Which is interesting. Yeah. It's really easy. I've got the mic,

693
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:57,360
I'm in control. I do my thing, do the stuff that I can't do as Gemma, which is my real name.

694
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,320
So as I sub in, I'm like, well,

695
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,880
you know, they are separate. They are separate. Yeah. They're different. Yeah.

696
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,840
Which doesn't mean it's not authentic. Yeah.

697
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:18,240
But it's like some of the stuff I've written about didn't happen at all. Like, I wouldn't

698
00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:24,240
have probably done that. Like, it's just what I was really, you know, not, or maybe not

699
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:30,160
feeling, but I was like, it was a small part of me that I very much enlarged.

700
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:35,680
Yeah. Which I mean, as my, what's that creative liberty? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Creative licensing.

701
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:45,840
Yeah. I mean, like, you know, because I think knowing you as well and having those two separate

702
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:52,480
worlds as well, it's very interesting to see how you can, you know, you can, you know,

703
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:57,760
sit down with you and have coffee versus like see you on stage. It's like two very, you know,

704
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,120
I know they're the same person, but they're also two very different people. Like, you know,

705
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:06,160
and I guess you're very good work in a crowd, but then when you're, you know, you're in your own

706
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:11,760
world, it's a little bit different. You sort of want to keep as far away from the crowd or just

707
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:18,800
enjoy the moment with people rather than, I guess, necessarily be the center of focus.

708
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:24,160
Yeah, that's true. So I think that's why I like performing because it's like my little time to

709
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:30,240
sort of do my thing. And then I'll be like jellyfish away sort of like into the background.

710
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:37,840
Yeah. Well, not background, but like not, I'm naturally not the loudest, like I'm a little

711
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:43,600
soft spoken or medium voice as you like to say. I have the very medium voice, very crisp medium voice.

712
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:49,840
Yeah. So, but honestly, like, I feel like my voice comes through best through my music. And

713
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:56,880
sometimes like in general conversation, I don't feel like I have the best things to say, or like

714
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:02,160
the most knowledge about certain topics and sort of like, I like to listen and

715
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,720
not talk shit, like pull stuff out of my ass. Like, I don't think that's authentic to me. Like,

716
00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:13,520
yeah. I mean, that's very true. And I don't think you've ever been sort of want to pull stuff out

717
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:19,040
of your ass left, right. And send up. But no, I mean, like, I think also, you know, and I, I,

718
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:24,000
I sort of disagree with you in the fact that, you know, I, you know, oh, you're not interesting or

719
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:29,040
anything like that, because we've had very much in depth conversations about all sorts of things.

720
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:34,320
But I definitely think, I don't know, it's, it's one of the things that I've been trying to do

721
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:40,960
is like, well, how many people do you want to listen to that, to that, you know, come and say,

722
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:46,880
because I feel like we all have stories, we all have opinions, we all have life. And that's part

723
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,600
of what makes us unique is people and individuals. And I guess like the one thing, you know, I like,

724
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:59,280
I have this all the time where, you know, like, people go, oh, you know, back in the day before,

725
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,480
like, I really had an online presence, people like, well, what are you like, what are you doing?

726
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:07,360
I only know you as sort of like, like two things. And now it's like, oh, actually, you know, you

727
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,840
like several things and you know, you have a following or you have like, you know, a platform

728
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:17,440
that you talk about and you know, and everything. And I think that makes us more, you know,

729
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:24,080
connectable and, and you know, like approachable. But I mean, at the same time, I think everyone

730
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:30,640
has a story and I think everyone has like an, an opportunity, whether they think they do or not.

731
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:36,160
To tell that story. And I think that it depends how you, you know, because we only shape our own

732
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,480
stories as well. Like, you know, we're in control of our own stories, whether, you know, you talk

733
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:45,280
about like social media as being like a bit of a fuckwit in terms of how they tell the stories or,

734
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:52,080
you know, the different angles that people take and strip information from you. I think that's

735
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:58,560
poor, I guess, journalism or poor sort of, it's a very biased opinion of, of the people that

736
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:06,640
are in control of the story. And I think that's a very biased opinion of, of what actually happens.

737
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:13,200
And it's like a he said, she said, they said kind of like scenario. Whereas I think when we're in

738
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:18,720
control, like, you know, and that's why I think a lot of the time now, what we say is really important

739
00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:24,800
because, you know, it does give, you know, people inspiration. It does give people like, you know,

740
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:30,000
justification, whether you think it does or not, because, you know, at the end of the day, we all

741
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:35,520
have a purpose and, you know, there's like something we're all inspired to do. We only live once, I

742
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:42,400
guess, depending on your spirituality and everything. But like, you know, there's one life and we do it

743
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:47,680
and we kind of make the most of it. And I think it's kind of nuts, that aspect of it, especially

744
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:53,680
when we're like in a creative field, it's kind of like we're projecting whether fictitious stories

745
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:58,640
or real, you know, stories of what we're trying to say is in a, you know, as you say, an extrapolation

746
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:04,320
of some small event that happened or something small about yourself. You're still telling some

747
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:10,480
sort of version of a story. But as artists, we're kind of just, you know, that's the point. We're

748
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:16,480
making it bigger than life. We're making everything sort of big. And that's exciting, but it also kind

749
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:21,520
of makes us very grounded because it's, you know, it, you know, like, it's like that heart on your

750
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:27,280
sleeve kind of thing. We are more emotional than, you know, those business execs who come to a party

751
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:33,440
and try and sell a product. And I think that, you know, that's where it comes important to

752
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:42,240
be an individual and be hopeful because it's like, well, you know, I think, I don't know,

753
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:48,880
I think it's like also really important as like artists, you know, that we are as, I guess,

754
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:55,360
transparent as we can be. Like it's probably the most accurate way. You know, like we're not like

755
00:57:55,360 --> 00:58:01,840
completely C3, but we're mostly a transparent asset because people want to believe in something.

756
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,600
And I want, you know, like whether you have mental health issues or anything like that, you want an

757
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:10,080
advocate to kind of make you feel better about yourself or, you know, like that's why we listen

758
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:15,520
to music. That's why we watch films. They make us feel better about our own lives and, and you know,

759
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:20,640
necessarily the shit that goes, you know, because we all, I think, I think the thing I admire about

760
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:27,760
you as well, if you, you know, from a personal perspective, um, is, you know, throughout your,

761
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:33,280
you know, you're very much like upfront. You're always a very upfront person, which is interesting

762
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:38,720
because you don't, you, you know, I guess that's kind of a quality of you that probably not a lot

763
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:43,760
of people see, but you're very upfront with things and very honest and open and just kind of like

764
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,040
not being around the bush kind of person. Do you agree with that?

765
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:53,760
Yeah. I mean, you're not the only person who said that to me. Um, yeah, no, I've had people say

766
00:58:54,000 --> 00:59:02,800
something brutally honest or like painfully honest. And so I decided to tone it down a little bit.

767
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:12,640
So it's, you know, honest, but kind, kindly honest, kindly honest. Yeah. Cause sometimes I like

768
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:16,800
accidentally maybe hurt someone's feelings that didn't happen too often, but sometimes if someone

769
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:21,920
was particularly sensitive, I'm very sensitive. Um, so now just sort of like tuning into that and

770
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:28,640
tempering it and, you know, maturity, like you learn things as you grow, like how to,

771
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:36,800
yeah, how to like talk to, talk to people in a way that they'll listen and not get hurt or cause like,

772
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:43,040
you know, obviously you're not really trying to hurt people, but sometimes if you say something

773
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:50,480
like the wrong way, you know, people can get offended or get hurt. So yeah, yeah, definitely

774
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:57,760
like trying to be more delicate with stuff like that. Um, but yeah, what was your question? I

775
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:03,040
like, I don't even, I just loved that you answered that. And that was kind of like the basis of a

776
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:14,960
question. But I mean, like, yeah, I think, I think also with, with that and you know, like being,

777
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:19,600
being so brutally honest, I think it kind of makes you more approachable as well, because then you

778
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:26,000
sort of don't, you don't get the fictitious like, like nothing's not true because you always know

779
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:31,360
where you stand. Yes. Yeah. I mean, even when I was really young, like I just didn't lie.

780
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:39,360
Like I, I, yeah. I mean, I don't try because I, like, I know that I wouldn't be able to pull it

781
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:45,200
off at all. So I don't lie at all. Like I don't lie at all. Um, if I do have to give someone,

782
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:49,840
like, like I said before, like if I have to give someone a hard truth, I'll sort of just be like,

783
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:57,280
yeah, I don't know. This is just my opinion. That's always a good one. So it's sort of like,

784
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:01,600
like, you know, like this is just what I think doesn't mean it's right. Like, you know,

785
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:08,240
um, I forgot the question again. What, what were you saying?

786
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:15,120
About brutally honest. Yeah. And, and you know, you're, you know, whether you're,

787
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,560
you know, like your opinions and how you approach people. Oh yeah. So

788
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:25,840
I don't see the point in like, not being honest. Like it doesn't, it feels like a waste of time.

789
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:31,680
Yeah. It's like, I'd much rather just communicate. I think that's what it really comes down to is

790
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:38,960
communication, like authentic communication. Um, and just being clear and like knowing,

791
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:45,920
like, yeah, even if it's something that's hard to take, it's like probably better to just be clear

792
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:54,800
about it. Hard, hard pill to swallow. Yeah. In the end, it's going to save you time. Yeah. I mean,

793
01:01:55,520 --> 01:02:00,560
I guess as also, you know, cause you, you know, I want to bring us back to, I guess,

794
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,240
you know, the whole aspect of being a woman in the industry as well. I mean,

795
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:09,120
do you think you've had to deal with a lot of like hard truth that people have tried to give you or

796
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:14,320
sort of like, cause you talk, you talked a little bit about like, you know, there's always a finite

797
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:20,720
amount of time for a woman. And I guess that's, you know, true, but I think it is changing now.

798
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:27,120
Like it's massively changing and I feel like, yeah, do you feel like there's a lot of hard

799
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:31,360
truths that you've had to deal with or sort of like circumstantial? Like, I mean, I think it's

800
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,800
a lot of hard truths that you've had to deal with or sort of like circumstantial, or do you think

801
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:40,160
you've just kind of like brushed those off at the side now? I don't know if anyone has ever said

802
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:45,920
specifically those words, cause they would probably get like me too out the door. Yeah, I know.

803
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:51,760
It's just like a impression that you get or like the vibe, the vibe sort of thing. Yeah.

804
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:58,080
You know, different things that other people say, it's never explicitly said,

805
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:05,680
it's just sort of understood what gets played on the radio. You sort of see and blah, blah, blah,

806
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:12,320
but yeah, there was like, I think on Instagram and little movement, like a year or so ago,

807
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:18,160
women who are over 30, like sort of sharing their story of how they got aged out of the music

808
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:23,680
industry, how once they turned 30 radio stopped playing them, they stopped getting, you know,

809
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:29,280
like opportunities and things like that. Or they get like relegated to double J. Oh,

810
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:36,480
I'm being really specific now. Love it. I'm going to utilize that. Oh dear.

811
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:42,160
Hope that doesn't get me in trouble, but. I feel like that's an accurate statement though.

812
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:50,240
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting as well, because I feel like it's based entirely upon physicality

813
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:55,600
and, you know, I guess attractiveness, which is kind of the shitty side of music industry,

814
01:03:55,600 --> 01:04:03,120
because looks should not really dictate how you, your work succeeds.

815
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:13,760
Yeah. Yes and no. I think it helps. I think it helps if you have that thing, whatever thing is

816
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:21,120
the it factor, the star factor, like I think it helps. And that's probably what makes the difference.

817
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:26,880
Cause there's so many people out there trying to do the same thing. Like it comes down to those

818
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:33,920
sorts of things. Cause there's always someone that can help you sound a bit better. Yeah. But

819
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:41,360
unless you get plastic surgery, like. Do you think you'd ever go down that route? No, no, no.

820
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:47,360
I don't think so. I think it's good to like embrace what makes you like different and

821
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:53,920
because so many kids nowadays like need that and they love that. They're so more accepting.

822
01:04:53,920 --> 01:05:01,680
Like I think young kids are so much more accepting now of differences and like queerness or being

823
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:08,320
trans or like any sorts of like, diversity or being different. They're so much more accepting than

824
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:15,520
when we were young. No, we're still young, but like when we were in those very tender years,

825
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:22,800
when it mattered, it's different. I think it's different now, even though like obviously there's

826
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:29,040
a lot of toxicity on like TikTok and stuff, but in general, I think it's way more accepting.

827
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:35,920
I mean, absolutely. And I think, you know, it's interesting as well because I feel like there's,

828
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:43,440
the younger and younger generation, you know, like keeps going back by that people make a lot of,

829
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:47,120
you know, decisions earlier and earlier and earlier and know themselves a lot more

830
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:54,400
at a younger age versus, because it's not shamed. None of it's shamed anymore. Like there was a lot

831
01:05:54,400 --> 01:06:01,280
of shame going around in high school where I remember it's like, you know, and I feel like

832
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:06,560
there was very set in stereotypes. Like people did certain things, you dress certain ways,

833
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:11,520
everyone was sort of like a certain category. You listen to certain music, like that was what

834
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:17,280
we were told. And now it's like, nah, you can be anyone. And I feel like, you know, what's that

835
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:21,280
saying is like the older generation are eventually going to die. And that's like the blessing.

836
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:26,080
But it's true. A lot of people who are like very bigoted will eventually die.

837
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:32,240
And, but yeah, like, I dunno, it's, it's sort of inspiring, especially like, you know, making

838
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:39,840
content for, or, you know, giving people hope who were younger than us that they're not alone or

839
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:46,160
they, you know, because do you feel like what are things that you would have told young you that now

840
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:52,720
you know about yourself? What would you have told your younger self? Here's some advice.

841
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:57,920
And here's, here's, you know, here's where you're going. That's a great question, Marty. Like, whoa.

842
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:00,160
Throwing you the deep ones.

843
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:10,000
Well, I mean, I didn't, I probably didn't realize how sensitive I was until my psychologist told me.

844
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:18,640
So I probably would have told myself to go to therapy a lot younger than I started.

845
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:25,200
Probably would have helped a lot. Just to like help you work through your things without like

846
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:31,840
obsessing about things that don't really matter. Cause like a lot of depression is just obsession

847
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:39,280
about negative things in a way, like all things that happen in the past that you can't change.

848
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:47,840
I'm not saying I was particularly depressed, but like, there was moments where it was like a bit

849
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:55,200
like that, if that makes sense, like, ah, I should have really like, let go of certain things. And

850
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:00,640
yeah, I mean, that's probably what I would have told myself was like,

851
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:07,120
try and focus more on like the moment and try not to ruminate too much about

852
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:14,000
the past or worry about the future too much. Cause like, a lot of us suffered from like quite

853
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:21,360
severe, like doomsday anxiety, I think. Some people's like, a lot of people still do,

854
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:27,680
a lot of young people are going through that now, but I sort of tried to let go of that.

855
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:33,120
Cause it's so unhealthy for your life. So bad for you. And it's like, it's not gonna,

856
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:37,680
feeling that way is not going to change the world. You're going to change the world by feeling good.

857
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:41,280
Really? Like it's where you're in your power.

858
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:46,880
Yeah. I mean, you can't, and you know, like I'm not saying you can control always that,

859
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,680
but I see, I think, cause you know, like depression comes out of like also

860
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:56,960
managing chemicals in the brain and everything, but I do agree that like, you know, it's because

861
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:01,680
of those imbalances that you do kind of like, unless, you know, thinking about positive thoughts

862
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:07,120
and trying to think about it, I guess, going forward when you're constantly focusing on the

863
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:12,720
events that previously happened, they sort of dictate how you feel and you can get yourself

864
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:17,920
into a rut where it's suddenly, you know, like, you know, unfortunately the pandemic happened.

865
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,760
A lot of people who were very clinically depressed ended up taking their own life.

866
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:28,000
And that was a major result of being kind of by connection, you know, like, and I, and I think

867
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:35,840
it's a reflection of how, you know, the world was and not how it is now, because I think like

868
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:41,680
therapy is, or praise the therapist, right? It's a great resource, but I mean, like there's so many

869
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:46,800
things like, you know, like, um, you know, lifeline and you know, there's men's mental health,

870
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:51,840
there's, um, there's women's mental health, like lines that specific for those needs. There's,

871
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:56,640
you know, um, safe zones that people, you know, from, um, situations that they don't feel

872
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:03,280
comfortable going to can go and stay. Um, you know, there's, there's so many like access nowadays,

873
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:08,320
or as you know, like I remember particularly when we were kids, like, and I remember my dad,

874
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:13,040
you know, now is taking medication and, um, but I remember when I was a kid, he didn't,

875
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:16,880
it was therapy was not on the high list of priorities that he was ever going to consider.

876
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:17,360
Yeah.

877
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:22,400
And now it's like something that he considers and is on meds and you know, is lives a very happy

878
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:29,520
and healthy life, but you know, it's one of those things that had he said, um, years ago, oh, I'll

879
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:34,000
never bother with that stuff. And it's always funny when I guess I hear people who don't believe

880
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:39,840
that therapy, even if you're not in a, you know, like you don't have to be clinically depressed,

881
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:44,320
you know, like you don't have to be clinically depressed to go to therapy. Sometimes it's just

882
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:49,840
really useful to get diagnosed with like certain neurological conditions. You know, a lot of people

883
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:55,360
actually end up discovering that they've got like ADHD or, you know, um, uh, you know, slight version

884
01:10:55,360 --> 01:11:00,160
of autism or, you know, on the spectrum somewhere, you know, um, and that's fascinating because I

885
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:05,520
think it really kind of makes up a broader spectrum of people and differences, but when you never

886
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:11,760
want to touch a therapist, I think that's when you live in a very kind of like, and you don't believe

887
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:16,560
in it is kind of, what do you think of other people who do it then? Like, what's your real thought of

888
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:21,440
that? Because then you must think that everyone's overdramatic. And, and I think that that's really

889
01:11:21,440 --> 01:11:27,600
negative because it's, everyone has their own way of dealing with things. And whether, you know,

890
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:35,840
you're, um, you're use therapy or you use like, um, you know, uh, I guess herbal, um, uh, remedies,

891
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:42,880
or, you know, you, you see, uh, you know, um, I guess someone like a crystal bear or something

892
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:47,760
like that. I was like trying to think what exactly like that is, but I mean, like, I think that

893
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:55,040
everyone's beliefs and how they handle their own sort of like well-being is massively important.

894
01:11:55,040 --> 01:12:01,360
As long as it doesn't like negatively affect others, which, you know, is where it comes to,

895
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:06,160
because I remember like back in the day before it was on meds, man, was my mental health like

896
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:11,360
spiking. It was like a, a massive like overhaul. And now that it'd been on, you know, like, I don't

897
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,040
think the meds are the only thing that's sort of like, but I think a lot of external, like it was

898
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:20,000
something that my therapist said, which was when we have control of our external elements and, you

899
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:25,120
know, and we just put those to the side and we don't, we don't let them sort of dictate our day-to-day

900
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:31,120
life and we don't let them bother us and we control our in, you know, what we can do about ourselves.

901
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:37,520
Then you'll feel better because the external factors of, oh, someone just, you know, was rude

902
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:40,880
to me at the coffee shop. I can't do anything about that person at the coffee shop because they're

903
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:45,840
just going to be an asshole if they're in a bad mood. What I can do is how I react to that situation,

904
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:49,600
which will then put me in a better mood for later. If I try and go, you know what? No,

905
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:53,200
I don't know about that. I'm going to move on. But, you know, I remember back in the day,

906
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:58,880
anything would set me off. It's like just falling apart. Like, will you, do you feel like you,

907
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:01,600
you're better at managing just the day-to-day routines better?

908
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:06,320
I think I'm actually a lot busier than I used to be. That can be a bit difficult,

909
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:15,600
but what I do is I meditate every day, 20 minutes or so, and it makes everything a lot easier. I'm

910
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:25,600
much calmer, less reactive. Yeah, it's like, I feel like I'm more in control of my own thoughts.

911
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:35,120
Generally, I think I'm more positive. But, you know, there's still like worries and I could be

912
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:39,920
like more carefree, but, you know, we'll get there. You can't be like that all the time.

913
01:13:39,920 --> 01:13:47,440
Yeah. But yeah, no, definitely like I'm way better at managing my own mental health, for sure. I feel

914
01:13:47,440 --> 01:13:54,160
like I'm in control. Whereas before I didn't, I was just like, whatever whim, whatever thought came

915
01:13:54,160 --> 01:14:03,760
in. Oh man. Okay. Shit. I feel kind of shit now. Yeah. But I was also really good at having positive

916
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:10,080
thoughts as a teenager as well. I was like, oh, isn't this world amazing? And then other people

917
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:19,040
would be like, but X, Y, and Z, I'd be like, oh yeah. But no, now I feel like I've really kind of

918
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:27,920
made the separation between self and thought and not kind of identifying with thoughts. That was a

919
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:37,840
big discovery for me. Yeah. So that separation of like, you exist apart from your thoughts.

920
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:42,640
Like that's just like a little new and going off in your brain. Like that's not who you are.

921
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:48,400
So learning that separation was like a big deal and learning that you could actually control

922
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:54,080
what you think about in order to influence how you feel was another big thing. Learning to

923
01:14:54,080 --> 01:15:01,200
recognize and sort of see yourself as separate was something I learned from it. I think meditation

924
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:07,200
and a book called The Power of Now, which sounds silly, but it was a really good book.

925
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:15,280
And that was quite eye-opening. Yeah. So you just like use it as therapy, kind of like a

926
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:20,320
therapeutic book. I mean, I guess it's probably more like self-help or something. Yeah.

927
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:25,040
But it's not like I was using it in place of therapy. Yeah. I think I was starting therapy

928
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:28,880
around that point. It's always good to have self-help books as well. I always find like,

929
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:37,280
you know, a little useful advice. I love self-help. Yeah. I think it's great. Yeah.

930
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:44,160
It's a unique perspective. But I also think it's very good to have that outwards perspective. But

931
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:48,880
I mean, I agree with that. Like I'm probably a little bit more of a self-help book person.

932
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:54,560
I agree with that. Like I probably should meditate more than I do because it does help. Oh yeah.

933
01:15:54,560 --> 01:16:00,000
You know, like I do a lot of Pilates and yoga. So that also helps. And I think that's like when

934
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:05,120
you're sort of mindful of your own body and kind of like what you're doing day to day. Yeah. It's

935
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:09,760
very easy to kind of keep a top of everything. Although that's not to say that I don't have

936
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:16,560
spouts still to this day, but it's a lot easier. Yeah. Than almost like say three, four years.

937
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:25,280
Yeah. Yeah. See, and you'd say the same. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Definitely. That's good.

938
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:33,840
Like, yeah. And like you learn how to like self-sue that space, say like, learn what you need,

939
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:39,920
learn what your triggers are. And that will help you to identify when you're maybe running away

940
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:46,320
with like a worry train of thought or something. And it's like, oh, I'm worrying about this because

941
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:52,240
it's one of my triggers because of this experience. But it doesn't mean that it's

942
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:58,080
like necessarily true or that what I'm worried about is going to happen because it's just like

943
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:02,320
the tendency that you have. You notice like, oh, that's my tendency to think those things.

944
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:10,240
But has that ever happened? Yeah. Well, actually, no. So you just be like, oh, that's my thing.

945
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:15,440
You sort of like, yeah, I do that. I know you like accept that. Yeah. And be like, yeah,

946
01:17:15,440 --> 01:17:20,240
I know that I do that. That's what's happening right now. Being able to recognize that as a pattern.

947
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:28,000
Super helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. That's awesome. It's like really like self-aware.

948
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:33,920
Yes. You know, I guess that comes with age as well. Like we all grow up and become more self-aware.

949
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:39,040
Yeah. But I definitely think that, you know, some people out there are not that self-aware.

950
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:44,480
So it's really good. And I, you know, it's interesting because yeah, it does mean,

951
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:50,000
I don't know, like not everything kind of gets to you. It's just not this overwhelming,

952
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:58,320
you know, world. And we're able to slow down and sort of able to step back and realize, why am I

953
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:04,160
going to create the next project without like going down the rabbit hole of self-deprecation or, you

954
01:18:04,160 --> 01:18:09,760
know, or self-negligence or, you know, because I feel like that's so easy to, as a creative artist

955
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:14,640
as well, to, you know, lack of self-care. And it's always very important to have self-care,

956
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:20,480
especially when you're a creative, because creative energy goes hand in hand, like into

957
01:18:20,480 --> 01:18:24,800
your projects. And, you know, I've definitely got days where I forgot to eat.

958
01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:28,400
Oh no. Oh, I always eat. See, you're good.

959
01:18:29,040 --> 01:18:34,720
I always eat. Yeah, no, I never forget to eat. I'm like, what's next?

960
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:37,840
Yeah. What's the next meal? What's the next meal?

961
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:45,920
Oh my God. So now I'm like trying to focus more on like choosing healthy meals that are like,

962
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:51,200
have enough protein and making sure I eat enough protein. Cause that's actually really important.

963
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:57,920
I didn't, I didn't actually understand that. Cause I've got PCOS and like protein is a big factor in

964
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:03,440
like trying to balance blood sugars and stuff like that. So I'm like, okay, that's, that's really

965
01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:09,280
helpful to like actually know that. And I do feel a difference, like when I've had like a good

966
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:16,480
breakfast with like eggs and like wholemeal bread, as opposed to like just the bread, like with a bit

967
01:19:16,480 --> 01:19:22,800
of peanut butter or whatever. It's like, yeah, there's definitely a difference. Anyway, that's

968
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:27,200
kind of going off topic a bit, but- I love that though. That's now we know that Isovina's breakfast

969
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:34,640
routine is like this. Well, ideally not always. No. Yeah. What's your standard breakfast though?

970
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:40,080
Probably at the moment scrambled eggs on toast. Like a bit of avocado. Oh, look at that. That's

971
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:43,920
like breakfast connoisseur right there. That's like, that's like going to a cafe every morning

972
01:19:43,920 --> 01:19:49,040
and- Yeah. And the finest- Put a little bit of cheese and scrambled eggs and yeah, it's pretty

973
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:53,440
good. You're making me hungry. I'm getting hungry too. I know, just thinking about food. Yeah.

974
01:19:53,440 --> 01:19:58,400
But I'm going to use this as a perfect point to wrap this up as well. I've got so many more

975
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:05,360
questions I want to ask, but there's never enough time. Isovina, where can people find you? Where

976
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:13,920
can they stalk you on the internet? Oh yes. I'm just picturing that. I'm at Isovina Music on

977
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:20,640
Instagram. I have a YouTube channel, which has like my music and some videos that I made myself,

978
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:28,800
which is kind of fun. Spotify, I'm Isovina, I-C-E-V-E-N-A. And it's also like all my music's

979
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:36,560
available on like most of the major platforms, like Apple, Spotify, SoundCloud, YouTube, whatever.

980
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:42,080
You'll find me. Just put it in Google. You'll be right. Just type it in Google. Yeah. You'll

981
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:46,960
find it. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having

982
01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:50,960
me. It was great talking to you, Marty. Anytime, anytime. And if you want to go and check out more

983
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:54,640
episodes of The Things We Do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify. We'll be speaking with

984
01:20:54,640 --> 01:21:17,760
another guest next week and I'll speak to you all later. Goodbye.