This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental
health and all of that fun jazzy stuff.
Today I've got my special guest and friend all the way in Melbourne, Tamsen Hayes.
Hello Tamsen.
Hello.
How are you?
I'm good.
I'm very good.
I know you just mentioned, and I don't know whether I'll include it in the episode, but
I know you just mentioned you've been on a four day in a theatre going crazy.
Yes.
Crazy in a good way.
Yeah.
Love being in a theatre.
It's just one of those weeks where it's been like 10 to 11pm, as in 10am to 11pm, being
in like the one black box.
Yeah.
I'm just, I'm just very thirsty.
Oh no, that came out so wrong.
I'm just tired and I've been using my voice a lot and it was dusty and I think I'm just
going to be drinking a lot of water.
I'm happy.
I'm good.
It's a good time.
Okay.
And then, you know, just hydrate.
It's always important.
I feel like it's number one priority.
So Tamsen, first question, first question predominantly.
Tell everyone in the audience, tell all the listeners who you are and what you do.
All right.
My name is Tamsen Hayes.
I am an actor by love and passion and I'm a writer for the same reasons when I can,
but that's a newer skills that I'm developing.
And then by day, like I'm a superhero, my day job is I work in reality TV.
Wow.
That's the, okay.
That's a part that's so cool.
In what aspect of reality TV?
Mainly in art department.
Oh sick.
So where did that, did that come like just out of a trajectory in your like life choices
or?
Yeah, definitely.
I guess I was for so long just in the hospitality life doing, trying to do as much acting stuff
in the day and hospitality at night.
And it got to a point where I couldn't do it anymore.
I just mentally could not handle.
The hospital basically it got too much, I'd been doing it for too long.
I really wanted to find a balance where I really loved my, I don't know what else to
call it for lack there, like lack of a better word day job for an actor.
It's like the, the, the main income source, I guess is the better way to put it.
I wanted to find something that I loved doing and I love being around film and TV and I've
always loved like being creative.
I do have, I know I have skills in visual arts.
I grew up, my dad was a painter and a sculptor and I grew up kind of around that.
So I do know I have that, that eye and I don't know, I put the two together and wanted to
work around crews and I wanted to work on set, but I didn't want to work very specifically.
I didn't want to work around a set where there was actors because I didn't know if I could
handle if I ever felt jealous or not.
I didn't think I could handle that being a thing I was around all the time and wishing
I was in a different job to what I do.
So yeah, reality TV just works for me.
That's interesting that you say all that, cause I feel like that's why I work in like
news predominantly, cause it's the most uncreative thing and it's so mundane.
So it's kind of good cause then I can do creative things outside of my normal day job to be
more fulfilling.
But you're still around, you're still in the industry.
You're still around the production life of it all.
Yeah.
I mean, that's very true.
And I think that's very like wise cause like a lot of people tend not to see that as an
option where you're still kind of, you have other skills.
Like some people just go, I'm solo an actor and that's all I'll ever do.
And like acting and obviously the creative arts is like such a tough industry that even
like actually big actors, unless they're getting offered roles or sometimes sit and have to
make their own stuff because it keeps them all like do a side job.
When you were young though, like was it always, did you know which one came first in terms
of your skillset or was it always just like acting came first?
That's so funny.
Acting always came first, but visual arts was very, very close second.
And cause I started, I started drama classes when I was about like a silly age to start
drama classes.
They had like a, like a toddler drama class at the local church hall or something in my
little town.
And my mum just popped me in there on a Saturday morning and that, that's, I think I was almost
four, like three and a half, four, like a silly age to be doing anything like that.
But I was probably just games honestly at that time, but I stayed there until I was
too old and then just found other drama classes.
So I've, I've always done acting in some form, but then yeah, I grew up with so much visual
arts around me all the time and it got to my final year of high school.
And I think I knew, I mean, I know I knew that I wanted to, I wanted to go to acting
school after, but I did have a big moment of, I don't know which direction I'm going
to take.
And so I did my, you know, like in VCE or your final year of high school, I did the
visual arts subject and I did an acting subject.
And I said, whichever one I get the best marks in is the one I'm going to go for.
And yeah, it was acting, but it was very close.
I was like, I don't, I don't know, this is hard, but I think I always knew, but I get
to do both now, which is fun.
Yeah.
I mean like that's, that's awesome though, because you know, like to have those skillsets,
especially your, you know, it's just one of those things that I feel is like wild.
Cause do you think you will go through like maybe at some point and then just solely focus
on visual arts for a while and not do acting for a bit?
I don't think so.
I don't think my skillset has developed to that point.
I mean, I know I used to draw a lot and I used to paint, but I don't, I think I've
lost a lot of that.
But the thing I haven't lost is like my ability to put, put visual scenes together and solve
creative problems, if that makes sense.
So basically I, I use my creative skills when I make my own work.
So I have my own theatre show and I do all the art direction.
I have a, you know, I have other sorts of theatre where I've put on multiple fringe
shows and I just do all of the art direction and set and all of the stuff.
I get people to help, but it's always my vision.
I was like, you're like a powerhouse.
I just love it.
I just really like it.
I mean, that's great though.
Like it's, it's good to not stop.
And I commend you enormously.
It's a skill that I think a lot of people will probably be very envious of.
Do you, do you feel like, I guess that ever, like even with people helping though, do you
ever get to a point where I guess you're sort of feeling that you're burning candles at
both ends?
Of course.
Yeah.
But I'm too much of a, I'm too specific.
Yeah.
And when I have a vision, if it's my project, if it's other people's projects and that's
not my role in that, that's so fine.
I just do my thing, my, my role as well as I can.
And I'm happy with that.
But if it's my work, so for example, there's a Fringe show that'll be over by the time
this comes out, but that I wrote and I'm in, I have a director and a producer and all
that jazz, but it's, I see it in my head.
So I do tend to make creative decisions or I'm very particular with the creative decisions
that I want to make in the show.
I need it to look a certain way because I see the whole thing in my mind.
It's funny as well, because like I think, it was one of the things that I, you know,
if anyone's gone and stalked Tamsin online, your whole Instagram is very like visual art.
Thank you.
It's like stunning.
And I think it's sort of very interesting because you know, like you're very catered
to a distinct like direction or you can kind of see inside your mind.
But you also have a very good like social media presence.
Yeah, I feel like my Instagram is definitely my creative outlet for sure.
Because it's something I can work, that just feels like an, like a visual diary to me.
That's how I use it.
Yeah.
It just always needs to kind of be in theme.
It needs to kind of be like my brain has exploded into a place.
It's so nice to have that.
Because I don't know where else I can do that.
In my diaries I used to.
That's what all of my diaries used to look like.
But yeah, it's nice to have another place now.
Yeah, because I mean like when you were little, I guess, do you have old books and stuff that
you've kind of, because I know like when I was a kid, I used to draw in books.
Like even if it wasn't mine, I'd just grab a book and start drawing and doodling.
Do you have a lot of books that you've kind of just doodled in since you were little?
I don't have anything since I was really little, but yeah, my mum has lots of that stuff kind
of kept.
But diaries from high school I still have up until now.
And they used to be between a diary and a scrapbook, I suppose.
Yeah.
Where it's like I'd get magazines.
And if I wanted to write a diary entry, I would cut out pictures from the magazines
and first like make a whole page of colour or words or whatever that fit in theme with
whatever I was about to write on that page.
Like it's a lot.
Wow.
It'd be like a whole activity.
I'm like the page can't be white.
It has to be in theme for how I'm feeling today.
And all of my feelings will come out as long as there's the proper border cut out from
the right magazine with like a heading that I found in like Frankie or something that
makes sense to what I'm writing about.
It's a lot.
It was a lot to keep up with, honestly.
I don't do it as much anymore.
I mean, I am loving all this because it's just I really want to now just look at your
diaries for that very purpose of the visual aesthetic.
Yeah.
Because that's astonishing.
I mean, like though, do you do you feel like that's affected?
Like, because you mentioned writing was quite a new skill, especially now that's something
you want to get into.
Do you think that's sort of another outlet of things that you kind of want to focus on
and sort of have creative control over?
Writing really came because I just wanted more autonomy in making work that I wanted
to perform.
And it just felt like the easiest way to do a show or do a web series in which I got to
play a character that I wanted to play was that I just do it.
You can't wait for other people to write the thing that you want to perform.
They can't read inside your head, you know?
No.
Yeah.
So sometimes you just have to do it.
Yeah.
That's honestly where it came from.
I was like, I have these ideas.
I really want to make a show that's this.
But it's not coming to me or it's not happening or I don't know how to audition for that and
I don't know who's putting that on.
It's like, well, no one is, Tamsen.
You made it up.
Write it down.
You have to do it.
You're the only person that can do it.
It exists inside your brain.
You can't expect some theatre company holding open auditions over there to be doing the
thing that's inside your brain.
So do it.
I don't know.
It just seems like the only option sometimes.
Yeah.
I mean, that is great though, because it really means you're not waiting.
Because I think the problem we have, especially in the industry, is there is this taught mentality
of just wait for the opportunities.
Have you always been like, never wait though?
Have you always, always there a time where you were just like, I'm going to kind of hope?
I don't think so.
Not that I have, not that I have the capacity to put on heaps of projects myself all the
time at all, but I feel like I always have something that I am working on autonomously
to fulfill that creative kind of need, I guess.
Yeah.
I guess also the thing is, do you feel like when it came to casting and stuff, did you
get roles particularly that you didn't feel were you or very much people put you into
categories because it based on your appearance and everything?
Sometimes, yeah.
I do feel that sometimes, but it's hard because I feel like I am so, I change so much.
I'm really into this thing.
I really want to explore it.
And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, actually I really want to do this other thing now,
something totally different.
So it's not so much that the industry is putting me into a box, but I understand where that
question comes from because that is such an experience of so many performers.
But I purely think it's just me being like, I have an idea that I want to explore.
I should do it.
I don't think it comes from not getting what I want out of the industry.
I think it comes from just being ready because you can't wait for other people to be ready
for you.
If you're like, oh, I have this idea.
I really want to do it.
I think I can do it.
I'm just going to start writing it, start putting it on, start talking to people, see
what happens.
I have this much money saved up at the moment.
Okay, cool.
Let's use it.
What can we do?
Or you just really want to do something.
So like, for example, as soon as I finished acting school, me and two of my closest classmates
were so keen to do something straight away.
And it takes a while after acting school.
Some things happen, some things don't.
But after you are working in such a creative, nonstop energy for years where you're constantly
making stuff, all of a sudden that ends.
Where do you get that feed from?
Do you just go into this waiting period that you were talking about before, or you do something
about it?
And the three of us were like, I don't want to sit around.
I have so much energy.
We're all so excited to jump out into this industry.
Let's just do something.
So we just got together constantly, twice, three times a week, and wrote a web series.
And then we made a pilot and then we used that to get funding and we made the rest of
it.
It doesn't need to win awards.
It doesn't need to be the best thing ever.
It was something that felt like it was feeding us creatively.
We all wrote our own characters.
We were like, this is the type of character I want to do to be seen as my first thing
in the industry.
And went from there.
And then all of a sudden we had this great show, real material, but also this thing that
we were pitching to festivals and we got made.
So we met all these other people in the industry in a similar place to us.
And it was just, I don't know, kind of always, I just like making stuff.
I was the kid with the camera who had their friends over on the weekends and just made
them make films with them.
They're terrible, but it's fun.
I love that mentality as well, to not always make stuff that is, I guess, star star quality
or like, because I'm very similar to you.
I'm very much in that mentality of how you make stuff is dependent on what you really
want to make and you just do it.
And like not everyone's like that.
Obviously it's not as simple as just making something and people going, oh yeah, this
is a fun experience.
Like obviously it takes a positive kind of team of creatives to kind of be like, hey,
let's all band together.
I mean, that is it.
Do you find yourself trying to encourage people as well with that mentality that you meet
these days?
I mean, it's a good time because people are like, especially this show that I'm doing
in Fringe, a lot of people come up to me and they're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe
you're doing a one woman show when you wrote it yourself.
Like that's so impressive.
I'm like, is it?
I just wrote it in my bedroom.
Like, just, and then I found people to help me and I asked them questions and then I found
someone who I trusted to see if they'd direct it for me and they did.
And then we just worked on it for a long time until it got to a point where it felt okay
and it felt good.
And then you just keep asking people to see it or look at it or ask people questions about
it and go, is this something?
Is this, is this thing?
I like it, but do you like it?
Or should this just be something I did for myself and that's enough?
Or like, should this go further?
Like, what do you think?
You just ask people that you trust and then you say, and yeah, it's, it's been amazing.
And I've done that for a few projects now from, from weird things to like, um, I'll
just say, I was working at a shop that had a really huge big front window and a Melbourne
Fringe was coming up and I said to my friend, how funny would it be if we just turned this
window into a room and we lived here for like a week?
That would be a Fringe show.
And she was like, yeah, that would be a really interesting Fringe show.
So we just did it.
Like, cool, we're going to live in this window for a week.
And then we sat down and we figured out like, why are we doing this?
Does this have a point?
How do we make this have a point?
What we came up with, I thought was really great.
And then, yeah, we did it.
I don't know.
You see something that's inspiring.
I saw this big window that got used for all sorts of displays and all sorts of things.
And I don't know.
I was like, if I could put something in this window, what would it be?
Yeah.
And, and as part of my job was I would decorate the window or make scenes and make it look
cute.
And I came up with heaps of different shows I could put on in this window.
Um, there's still a few I would really love to do, but they didn't happen and that's fine.
I'll keep them for another window one day.
I think what I love at the moment, I'm just watching your eyes as well, because I can,
I can see Tansyn in, in my little visual screen, but I, what I love is literally watching how
your brain neurons fire of like how you'll think of one idea and then you'll think of
another idea and then you'll like fire.
It's, it's so unique because I feel like that is you, I would describe you as a very out
of the box kind of thinker.
That's so nice.
Thank you.
Like what, you know, like what can I do?
What can I change?
What can I make inspiring, interesting, you know, what, what speaks to me, what speaks
to others?
Like you're constantly, I can see the cogs like moving in your head and kind of the ideas
and the, um, firing in there.
It's kind of, I mean, a surreal experience as well.
Do you, do you find like, did it take you a while as well to communicate ideas in your
head to other people?
Did that feel like that was a journey?
Yeah, definitely.
That's such a confidence thing.
I think, yeah, the amount of things that I can get inspired by or think about, I don't,
I can't share them all.
Some of them are, you know, they're nonsense, but occasionally, occasionally it just takes
one conversation where you go, what is this?
What is this that I am thinking about?
Is this a thing?
Is this, is this nonsense or is this, is this something I should keep thinking about?
And then, yeah, sometimes things just happen.
And flow.
Yeah.
And also sometimes it comes from something that's been in your head for a while or that's
been nagging at you for a long time.
I did this one show, um, again, for Fringe.
Fringe is great.
Um, a few years ago now, probably six or seven years ago now, I did it because I had done
it in high school and it had stuck with me and I'd constantly seen this image repeat.
We did, we did it in high school and I loved it as a play then and it stayed with me for
so long, but I kept seeing it in a different way.
And I kept being like, if I could do that again, this is what I think it should look
like.
Or if I was directing that, this is what it should look like.
If I got to be the art director on that, this is how it should be.
And then just got to a point and I was with some actor friends and I was like, I have
to tell you something, I've been thinking about this show for so long, like 10 years,
actually not that long, but for years.
Can you just sit and just listen to me talk about it for a minute?
And then you go, okay, it's a show, it's about Greek gods.
This is the way the play works, but I kind of want to flip it and change heaps of the
genders and insert circus and make a giant cloud out of whatever stuffing, whatever I
can find, but also do it outside.
Is that, is that a thing?
Is that something or is that not, is that like terms and you are losing your mind or
is that something I can do?
And then they went, I think you can do that.
I was like, all right, okay, I'm going to do it.
And then just conversation.
Can I just say, I love the way you think as well, like how, you know, it is, it is entirely
how I think and nothing is saying.
Because I think it's one of those things that I do agree with you with, like you sort of
think of an idea that's, you know, a few years old.
I've got like ideas in the back of my head that I've been thinking about and ruminating
for years.
And you know, the amount of conversations I've had with friends going, does this idea
work?
Does this idea work back to the drawing board?
You know, like what flows, what doesn't flow?
And I think, you know, it comes down to, well, like one of my really good friends is an amazing
person and he is an amazing writer as well.
And whenever I pitch an idea to him, he's just like, brilliant, let's do it.
And it's sort of like, you need those people to just be like, you can do this because there's
a lot of nos, I guess, that come out of like, no, it's too expensive.
No, it's, you know, like too difficult.
Like, totally.
Yeah, it's, it's, I feel like it kind of makes the industry a bit disheartening.
Because I think, you know, and it was one of those conversations that, you know, when
I, before I had started even this podcast, I remember sitting down, I had afternoon tea
with my mother and I said to her, I was like sitting in a cafe and I was like, I'm going
to do a podcast about the arts industry.
And she went, oh God, really?
And I said, yeah, like, it's a great idea.
Chat to people about art and you know, and like the pros and cons about art and you know,
the identity issues.
And she was like, oh, you know, like, are they going to be really interested in what
you say?
I was like, look, okay, thanks.
But it was like this long conversation, whereas I think like from the perspective of my mom,
who is always a bit more of a live in a book than it is to kind of, I think, and she's
a bit of an academic, so it's like, she's less interested in the creative side of things
and more just interested in certain aspects of people's lives.
But I was like, I remember mentioning into my partner and a few other friends, and they
were like, this is a great idea, just go and do it.
And they kind of, but then you had the conversation of like, oh, there are other people already
doing it.
Why would you do it?
Like if you're against competition, I was like, well, you know, why not?
Like exactly.
Yeah, it's, it's half the, half the fun I find is meeting people like yourself, where
it's like, you get to dive into someone's brain and understand how they tick.
And if that's not something like that, I, you know, been doing it for two years, I think
at this point I should love it.
And I do.
And I think it's more enjoyable than some of the things that I do day to day.
And that is like the thing, like the thrive of coming here, doing recording this, even
though it's months in advance, like, and we're recording this at 6pm.
And just going, let's have a, let's have a yawn.
I think is the more, more exciting thing.
Cause I look forward to it, whether I've gotten up like for work, it's stipulate hours in
the morning.
I look forward to this element of my day where I get to do the thing that I love and you
know, and then really kind of dive into it.
And I think if, you know, no one can take that away from us.
Like no one can take that joy of doing the things that we love away from us.
That's the most important thing about it.
It's the joy.
Yeah.
Like I think, I think with you as well, because, um, and correct me if I'm wrong, like feel
afraid to correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like, you know, because you're such a positive
outlook on, on things, I feel like, did that take you a while to get here?
Because I don't like to be always quite a positive person.
Um, I, I feel like I'm not always positive, totally.
But I think as long as I am, as long as I have a project that I am getting creative
satisfaction out of, it's a lot easier to, to stay positive and feel the joy, I guess,
every week or every day or however much you need it.
It's like, if you are working on something that you love, that you believe in, it's a
lot easier.
I think that's why I like even finding a job that feels more fulfilling in a way than something,
for me, it was hospitality, something that wasn't really bringing me anything.
It felt like something I had to go to, something I was watching the clock at, something that
I didn't get anything from.
I made good friends, totally, but it just felt draining, I guess, not fulfilling in
any way.
I felt like I expended, expended a lot of energy and when I get to do something a bit
creative, it feeds me and I think that makes everything a bit easier.
But then if I think about the future and if I think about the place where I don't have
any performing going on at a time, then that makes me sad.
I have to always have a performance aspect in some way.
Not necessarily performance, performance on a stage or in front of a camera being like
here's the lines, here's the script.
It's more like, I guess it's more like connection and storytelling where it's me and I'm not
facilitating it necessarily for someone else, which is what I feel like my kind of day job
is, which is fine, as long as I also get to do that in some way through me.
Does that make sense?
That was a really convoluted answer.
No, I love that.
It made me think of a lot actually.
I think, yeah, do you feel like it's kind of helped you through milestones in your life
as well, like the creativity?
Yeah, definitely.
I think I see my life milestones in creativity milestones.
I think that's how I measure my life.
It's not like this is the year I turned blah blah blah.
This is the year I did that show or this is the year I got my, I don't know why I'm not
putting, I'm trying to be really vague for some reason.
I don't know why, but it's like this year I saved all of that money and did that course
in New York.
This is the year, like it's not.
Yeah.
I think that's the way I see, I look back.
So I think that's why it's important to keep making sure I'm creating those milestones.
Again, because you can't guarantee that anyone else is going to give those to you.
Like I don't feel like I do anything to, if someone's measuring their life in milestones,
I don't feel like I do anything to earn a birthday that comes around, but I feel like
I do stuff to earn a performance or earn an amazing gig or I'll start using specifics
because it's being really vague, but I also don't want to be like, oh, this isn't my resume
because it's not, it's kind of not what I'm trying to say.
I look back at one year and it's like, that's when I wrote a show for Melbourne Writers
Festival.
That's the year I performed at Dark MoFo.
That's the year that I toured and performed in a motel room.
That's the year I did the show on the rooftop in a pool.
That's how I look back.
So I think that's why they're so important to me.
The things that I can creatively create.
Making something from nothing is cool.
Having an idea, just like you and this podcast, you had an idea and now it exists and it's
in the world and people can listen to it and it feeds people in different ways and people
can connect.
And that's so cool.
I think it's also like, I think what's the exception and cool about you is, you know,
and believe it or not, the reason you fell onto my radar probably years ago, like I think
five years ago or something like that.
I'm trying to sort of measure this in milestones.
And it was back sort of when I was, no, it would have been five or six years ago.
And it was like during the end of like, I just graduated from TAFE.
So I'd done a film course in TAFE.
I was working full time and I kind of was looking at projects and looking in like creatives
on Star Now and stuff like that.
And your name popped up in the wonderful search engine.
And I remember clicking on your profile and seeing, you know, this person had been in
a few music videos and just looked very quirky and cool.
And I just remember thinking, I was like, it'd be really interesting to connect with
this person years later.
Or you know, even if it's not like now, it's like in a few years later and find out what
makes them, because it was something about you.
And I think this is kind of like how I always know, you know, like goes back to that thing
of how do you know about people?
I look at people from a, you know, and it's probably like a superpower I say, because
of my way my brain's wired, but like I'm very perceptive of how people hold themselves,
even if it's like in an acting or a creative sense, because everyone holds themselves,
whether they're creative and stuff, I can automatically tell when someone has like this
massive creative ego.
And I looked at you and I was like, you're cool because you just love what you do.
And everything that you do seems to just be a passion rather than just this, I'm, you
know, this top tier, like famous, you were just like, I'm always doing stuff and just,
that's fun and creative and cool.
And let's see what like the world brings.
This is so nice.
Wow, you that's, you could have connected with me back then.
I think it was like always, I love that you say that.
I mean, like, I think it was also because I was sort of much, you know, like it's that
confidence thing that we were talking about.
Because back then I was just breaking into the, like, especially because I started out
as a performer and then I went into behind the scenes stuff because I really like, I
love acting, acting is like great, but I had developed this terrible stage fright.
Thank you drama class.
And thank you, harsh criticism.
So I became like, I predominantly loved like being in front of camera and stuff.
And then I learned how to be an editor and, and a bit of directing.
And I think it was like, and then I got a tech role.
So I just kind of stuck to that and did that.
And my dad was a photographer, so I learned photography skills.
So I ended up just trying to integrate myself slowly into being a creative, but less, less
of the performance side and more of the behind the scenes side and creating my own content.
And there was a period of time where it was like you were, you know, I just got sick of
waiting for opportunities to come along and I was just like, okay, cool.
How do I make my own?
And you know, to this day, I have amazing friends who still kind of like write material
or you know, do things and we sit down and kind of break them down.
But if I said that to myself five years ago, I didn't nearly have the network that I do
now.
Yeah, totally.
And having a podcast like this where you talk to creatives, like what a way to make a network.
I know, right.
It's like, but I mean, like I always always say that, you know, it's like the best quote
that I thought of the other day was like, I'm not nice, weed stalker on the internet
because, because it's just so easy.
And people often go, how do you find me?
And it's because Facebook search engine and, you know, and like the way the algorithm works
behind the scenes is just incredible these days.
It used to be you'd have to dive into the internet and type people's names specifically
now, but everything just connects and links up.
And I would often message people and just be like, Hey, and I always believed in that
it's no harm in asking.
And nine times out of 10, you know, people are like, yeah, love that.
You occasionally get the ones who thought you were crazy.
And it sounded psychotic.
But I feel like they're rarer than you expect them to be.
Yeah, I know.
I feel like, I don't know what it is.
It's like we're almost programmed to believe that reaching out to people through the internet,
I feel like the generations below us don't think like this, but maybe us because we kind
of grew up with the world discovering the internet.
It feels like you're kind of programmed to be like, Oh, you don't actually know that
person in real life.
You can't connect with them.
You can't follow it.
You don't know them, but it's breaking that wall and being like, no, no, no, this is what
this is for.
This is for connection.
Yeah.
So yeah, just ask.
Cause the worst thing they can do, especially someone online that you don't know.
I mean, I understand this is not talking about cyber bullying.
It's more like they can just say no.
Yeah.
And you'd be like, okay, cool.
I think it's also like, it's really kind of the cool thing is, you know, and is there's
a lot of, you know, genuine people on the internet and, and you know, like obviously,
you know, stranger danger and stuff like that.
I'm not encouraging people to go to everyone and meet them in real life, but I mean, there's
a lot of nice people.
And I think the internet these days because of how it is and how broad it is, um, it's
easy to find out about people very quickly.
Yeah.
Like, um, I think one of the things that I know, I know that, um, you know, if people
type my name into Google and you, and you want to specifically find information, you
will find my Vimeo, um, of all my edited projects and directed projects.
And it's, it's one of those things that when I, when I go and people tell me, it's like,
oh, I watched that thing.
I'm like, why?
Yeah.
Why'd you watch the terrible one?
The one I'm not proud of.
That's like 10 years old.
It's so annoying.
You can't, um, you can't, you can't monitor or like change your Google search.
No, you can change everything else.
You can change your profile on everything, but it's like, why does Google pick that?
I didn't like, why?
Who's, who's controlling the Google search?
I don't, yeah, I want to, yeah, it's hard.
It's annoying.
I want to fix it.
I want to rearrange all the images into a nicer order.
I'm not thinking like the, the better, the better articles to come up first.
I want to creatively art direct my Google search, please.
I think it's also like, you know, when Facebook suggests old quotes that you've got on like
old statuses and you read them and just go, oh, I wrote that when I was like 15 or 18.
Yeah, delete.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Slow and steady every day.
So I said delete.
I think one of my favorite quotes was just like, and, and, and clearly like I could tell,
um, you know, cause I'll, I'll talk to, um, and move on to mental health.
Um, but I remember just reading all the old statuses and it was like something that I
remembered predominantly like the, clearly the signs of mental health issues, like as
a kid, cause I was like, oh my God, like at the time I didn't think anything of it, but
it was like, you know, this 16 year old just going, Oh, you know, everyone hates me as
a status.
Like I feel like though, especially, um, growing up in the nineties, that was so easily misconstrued
and masked because of how like cool it was and edgy it was to kind of present like that.
It's like that whole like, Oh, it's Tumblr era or like, it's, it's, was easy to say things
like that on the internet, even though yes, you're probably feeling that exactly, but
it also comes out as like, Oh, I'm just being cool and edgy.
So it's like, you can so easily mask your emotions with the trends of that time.
Does that make sense?
It does.
I was just thinking, did your diary save you from writing a lot of unwarranted statuses?
Yeah, totally.
So you have all these secret like locked away diaries that you're like, no one's ever going
to read it.
Yes.
Yes, I do.
And they sit in my office on a shelf all lined up.
Oh my God.
I mean, like, do you, do you think that also like, you know, it's a, cause I know people,
it's interesting as well, because I think when it comes to your own experiences and
especially like you talk about a one woman show, do you, did you do that in particular
because you like, and that you felt like the industry was very male dominated or is it
kind of like, and you just wanted your own voice out there as well?
I don't think I thought about it like that, honestly.
I feel like that would be a cool thing for me to say right now, but it wasn't.
I basically got, amazingly, I got asked to write something.
It was very open, but they were like, can you pitch something for Melbourne Writers
Festival?
The theme of the Melbourne Writers Festival this year is around love.
I didn't technically have a title at the time, but I just knew that the theme was about love
and I got asked to write something.
And so I thought about it and came up with, yeah, a concept because I think we've been
talking about my creative process a little bit and what I think is maybe interesting
to some people, maybe a bit nonsense to a lot of people because it's probably working
the opposite way to a lot of people, but I see it first.
Like I see a visual picture before I see a story or a concept or a word, which I don't
know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
I don't know if that hinders me or not because I think I see it and I go, oh, that's what
I need to make.
I can see it very clearly.
And I go, what is, why, what is that?
And then I figure it out from there.
And my show takes place in a motel and I'd been to a lot of motels kind of in the last
few years, I'd done a few road trips and there was something about the visual style of an
old motel that's a little bit run down.
There's something about motels that feel very transient and nostalgic and it's like motels
are a part of someone's life for a very short amount of time.
They never see someone's whole life.
They're never somebody's home.
They're never somebody's long-term situation.
They see people in a state of flux and in a moment and a snapshot and that's all they
get and they see so many lives through one room, but only ever a tiny little bit of a
life and at that point in time, I was thinking about all my experiences with love and how
they all felt so fleeting and weirdly it all came together.
I feel like the life, the love, romantically speaking, not my friends, not my family, but
the romantic love of my life has been very like not lasting, like transient, like in
and out and gone.
And with that comes a lot of questions and a lot of unanswered questions and a lot of
unresolved feelings and open ends.
And I don't know, I was kind of stuck in that world and then I built a show around this
image of me sitting in a motel room in my head.
I mean, I love that sort of mentality of just, you know, that, so did you like actually do
it in a motel room?
Did you actually like pick a-
I have, yeah.
So where was it?
Which motel?
The first time we did the show, it was for Melbourne Writers Festival and then ended
up teaming up with this incredible music festival called OK Motels that were, that basically
take over, take over regional motels and hold a music festival in them.
Specifically their main venue is Charlton, which is a little country Victorian town.
And yeah, I got together with the organizer of that festival who'd come to see my show
at Melbourne Writers Fest and we kind of teamed up and me and my producer did like change
the show around, made it a lot shorter because it's a music festival.
People aren't going to sit and watch an hour show.
It's not the vibe.
We changed it to about 15 minutes and yeah, we're putting it on in one of the motel rooms,
just a really small audience in one tiny little space.
That's not-
Yeah.
It was fun.
It was really fun.
We've done a few different motels now.
It's cool.
I mean, do you, it's interesting as well because you know, you talk about romantically, like
love fleeting and very transient.
Do you think that a lot of your experiences have really kind of dived into your like actual
written work and when you form ideas and plays?
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, specifically, I know I mentioned at the start of this episode, I wasn't going
to talk too much about this play because it comes on in a couple of weeks and this episode
won't come out until after it's done, but potentially we'll do the show again.
This particular show is actually me talking to 12 people in my real life that I've had
some form of a relationship with.
Wow.
So it's all my real life.
It's basically, I went through my diary and found things and turned it into a show.
It's very scary.
I mean, are you, it feels very like, I guess, musician of you to kind of, and creative of
you to talk about relationships, especially to talk to specifically, are you worried about
what these people will think?
Are any of them still like prominent in your life?
Yeah, a few of them are, but I feel like, I really don't feel like any of them will
come, but also who knows?
Some of them, I think, are pretty aware of what I'm doing.
One person definitely is because they've outright said, Hey, saw you were writing a show.
Am I in that?
And I've said, yep.
I was like, there's no names.
Don't worry.
No one will know, but yes, you are.
I mean, that's scary.
What a way to process relationships.
Yeah.
I mean, have you, have you predominantly dated people who aren't creatives or had a romantic
sense with non-creatives?
No, a bit of both.
Definitely other people that are, yeah, around that kind of industry in the area.
So it's, it's very likely that people would come, but I just, I don't know why.
I just really feel like, I really feel like they won't potentially because they know what
I'm doing and they will avoid it.
And in other aspects, I just feel like potentially because they are not, not, not aware, like
not aware of what I'm doing, not following up looking, you know?
Yeah.
I mean, like that's, that's kind of astonishing as well.
And I always, you know, like, I think it's a great way of sort of reflection and especially
that idea that there's quite a few like ideas that I have always stirring in the back of
my mind, which are about people I've dated and just thought, Oh, maybe I should do something
based on these thoughts and, you know, feelings that I had at the situation.
And I feel like, are you describe yourself ever as a person where they're hot on their
sleeve?
I want to say no, but yeah, definitely.
I was like, what's the cool answer is absolutely not, but I absolutely do.
I was like, just hope.
Cause like, I actually remember the original question you asked me.
Oh yeah.
I remember an answer to what I told you and I don't know why, but you ask your thing and
then I'll keep that in my brain.
Please.
Cause I might circle around.
Cause you're a pro.
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, also though, like, do you, do you kind of like, when you're feeling emotional
about things or, you know, or, um, or how you process things is, do you always just
write your feelings down straight away in terms of just like nonlinear nonsensical thought
processes?
I used to, definitely.
I have gotten a bit lax with the diary the last couple of years, which I'm, I beat myself
up about quite often actually.
Don't, it's fine.
I know.
But when, you know, when you're like, I'm really glad that I have all those diaries
that I used to be so good at that.
Not that I was meticulously doing it at a particular time every week or anything like
that, but it was just like, that was my go-to place.
Um, I don't write stuff down as much as I used to.
My phone has a lot of notes in it.
Definitely.
That is kind of a place that I go to, but not as much as I, not as much as I wish that
I did anymore.
Yeah.
Cause it helps.
I love, I love when I do it.
I love when I'm in the routine.
I mean, that's like, that's always kind of hard as well.
I mean, do you, do you, do you describe yourself as quite an anxious person as well?
Or do you think you have a very like, um, sort of grounded sense?
But both is that like, I feel like there's things that I, there's definitely a lot of
situations where I walk through life and I am very anxious person.
And then you get me into a space and I can be the most grounded, most confident, most,
not confident, confident as in assured, I think is the better word, assured and knowing
that I'm meant to be there.
I feel like I flip between those all the time.
I think it's a creative, non-creative thing.
If I have a, if I'm going to a rehearsal or if I have something that I've, I'm making
or working on that's mine, I feel totally calm and present and here and like ready to
work and know what I'm doing.
And then other aspects of life, I'm a mess.
I'm like anxious little mess.
And I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing.
I don't deserve to be here.
I'm going to drop everything I'm holding.
I'm going to trip over and fall.
It's odd.
So both, but not both at the same time, both at like distinctly different times.
Yeah.
I mean, like I know for a fact that creatively I'm fine, but then like, I definitely get
to a stage where I think, um, and quite a few friends will vouch for this, where I just
get overwhelmed.
If I, if too many things are like going on at once, I will, and, and especially like,
I remember it's distinctly one party.
Like this was a birthday party that organized with a friend and was a murder mystery.
And we had decided like I could, basically I could kill anyone in the room.
Like that was the, that was the rule.
I could just decide that someone died randomly in the story.
And I did, and it was so much fun, but I got to a point where I think a few people were
annoyed that I killed them too early in the, in the story that they thought, because they
could then, the rule was that once you died, you could talk amongst each other and try
and solve it with me because I was the main guy who had died, but I could decide who died
at any other time.
And I knew who the killer was, but I remember one of the things was when the party ended
and everyone, I just remember being very kind of bombarded with everyone getting annoyed
that the fact that things, you know, their character died early.
Totally.
And I was like, well, that's half the fun.
Yeah.
Isn't it like to not predictively know.
Cause you walk away anxiously being like, I've hurt that person.
I made that person like, it was that they, the thoughts that were going on in your brain.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I feel that I get that you can have the best time ever, but you say one thing or you do
one thing and that's all you can think about for the rest of the night.
You just, you get in your own head very quickly.
It's like a switch because for me, when I feel anxious or I feel stressed about something,
I could be sitting like prime example, a few weeks ago, I had a, I had a panic attack and
I remember I was sitting down upstairs, like where I normally like edit videos and stuff.
And I remember sitting there and I just suddenly went, Oh God, what have I achieved anything
this year?
Like, have I done anything?
And this is, this is a thought that, you know, I have occasionally, which, you know, by the
way, I do a podcast, I do so many creative things.
It's not like I'm, I'm short, short on it, but I think the thing is it's that neurological
effect of just going, have I done enough?
Do you get that as a constant basis?
Yeah, I feel like that's the, yeah, that's my base state of living.
And that's why I feel like I have to be busy.
I have to be doing so many things because if I'm, if I'm busy enough, then I go like,
I can't possibly be doing anything else.
So this must be right.
Whereas if I have too much free time, I'm like, well, clearly I'm not doing enough because
what is all this free time doing here?
I don't have enough to worry about.
I don't have enough to be doing, which I know is, I know that's not, I know that's not right
intellectually.
I know that's like not healthy, but yeah, I think that all the time, there's so many
things I wish I could be doing at once.
I want so many more hours in the day, but I just don't know if even if I had all those
hours, I still don't think I would be doing enough.
Yeah.
I want to be able to look back at my, my, the milestone thing, like what we were saying
and be like, I, I did those 20 things that year.
I did those 30 things that year.
Not just like I did one big project or two big projects and this little thing or whatever.
And I don't know, I don't know where that comes from.
Just the industry probably and how competitive it is.
You just want to be busy all the time.
I feel like you have, well, I feel like if I'm not busy, I'm failing.
Yeah.
I mean, like the thing I also feel like, um, and I'm amazed because I feel like when I
look at you, um, especially when I, and when I'm hearing you, it doesn't feel like you've
broken because of the industry.
Like you haven't learned anything overall, try and break the Tamsin structure.
I mean, has it felt like it's gotten close where you feel like you needed to run away
from everything though?
Yeah, definitely.
But I know I never will, but I've said it.
I've definitely said it at my lowest points.
I'm always like, I have to give up.
It's always because I just think I'm going to fail no matter what.
I have to stop now.
That's I don't know.
It's kind of comes from there.
It's like, I haven't done enough already.
I'm going to keep going and I'm going to feel like a failure forever.
I have to stop this.
I need to do something else.
But then as soon as I go, well, what else would I do?
And I go, well, nothing.
There's nothing else I want to do.
So I just sit on this little failure train and make my little projects until the end
of time.
I don't know.
Nothing about what you're doing is failure train.
Otherwise, I'm in the carriage next to you, like, joining you on this train.
I don't know.
That's just, that's just the, I feel like nothing's ever enough.
No.
I think you think very similarly to me, you're constantly thinking of the next project while
even present in the current one.
And like that might finish and then you're like, okay, what's the next thing?
And then the next one and then the next one.
And while that's thrilling, it's very thrilling a lot of the time, it also just, you know,
like my books and my laptop are filled, filled to the brim with ideas.
And you end up cherry picking like the best ones that you think have got legs and then
extrapolating those into ideas and plot threads and you know, storytelling.
But I definitely feel like, you know, if I wasn't doing like my work, I'm going out and
doing a podcast.
If I'm not doing that, I'm doing photography.
If I'm not doing that, I'm writing an idea.
And then it becomes the thing of like, I know my wonderful partner has said a couple of
times that I need to stop and just have a, have a break.
And that is really hard.
It's so hard.
I'm terrible at having breaks.
I find it really hard unless I'm really exhausted or burnt out and then it doesn't feel like
a break.
It's like, again, it feels like I've failed because it's like, oh, I'm tired.
Damn.
I can't keep up.
So I'm failing.
Like, I don't know, it always comes back to that for me.
If I get so exhausted or I've done so much, then like, because intellectually I know it's
like, it's my body is tired, it needs to rest and that's all I'm doing and that's fine.
But my head is like, you're obviously not good enough to keep up with doing all the
things and to do everything you want to do, you have to be better than this.
You have to be stronger than this.
So get up, keep going.
Because otherwise like, look at you laying down.
What a failure.
It's so bad.
And I would never say that to anybody else.
It's just, I hold that for me.
Yeah.
It's, it's you hold yourself to high bar.
Yeah.
But I don't even think it's a high bar.
I just think I, I don't know.
Like I, I don't think that of my friends or anything.
Yeah.
You just think of it yourself.
Yeah.
I just always feel like I'm like at the back of the race or whatever.
Yeah.
So I have to like work harder to keep up.
I mean, it's interesting as well because you know, like I know we previously mentioned
relationships and everything.
Do you feel like being a creative has made it harder for you as well or to like have
a relationship because you talk about it being a transient state?
Yeah.
I mean, it's not anymore for me.
I feel I'm very lucky to have like a stable partner.
But yeah, in the past, I don't, I don't know.
I don't know if it's because I'm a creative or if it's because I just had bad habits and
low self-esteem.
I don't, I don't, yeah, I don't know if it's about, definitely some people it was, they
weren't a creative.
I am a creative and they just couldn't understand what I was doing.
I think they were transient or they treated me badly or whatever because I let them.
I don't think it had anything to do with my creativity.
Yeah.
I mean, that's the, I've definitely dated my fair share of people who have not worked
in the creative field and that was a mistake.
I thought because it never lines up, especially like-
Well, they just don't understand, they just don't get it or they just think it's a bit
of a novelty.
Yeah.
And like, oh, you're quirky and fun.
Look at you talking about theatre.
What's that?
It's like, you don't get it.
And have you had a lot of people tell you it's like not a real job?
No.
I think I just surround myself with a lot of creatives as much as I can.
But I know also, again, I totally understand why you ask that.
And I know that that's a lot of people's experience and that is a real, real thing.
I definitely get occasionally if I, if I don't have like a steady income or something, but
I'm, but I've chosen to do that.
And I, it's because I have too many theatre projects on or I have this and that, or I'm
just having a few months to just audition.
Yep.
And so I do occasionally, I just turn off everything else and I go, I have these months,
I have enough savings.
I'm just going to act and whatever form that comes in is just my life.
Then like my mum will freak out or something and be like, here's all these job applications.
Pick one.
Here's all these people.
My work's hiring.
What are you going to?
And I'm like, just, it's fine.
I know what I'm doing.
So I get that occasionally, but it's not, yeah, it's not really the same thing.
But back to, you asked me, which is how I got into this writing thing originally, you
said something like, have I always wanted to write?
And I guess what I've always wanted to do was stand up comedy and I don't have the,
the like guts for it.
That seems too terrifying to me.
And so this show that I'm doing now potentially will be the closest thing to stand up that
I do because it's theatre, but it's just me and it's talking about my real life.
Some of it's funny, not all of it's funny.
And I don't have any props or anything.
I'm just like moving about a space, talking to the audience.
That's like the closest thing I reckon to stand up.
So I don't know.
I've always wanted to do that.
And weirdly this was my way in, but not in just, this was my way to kind of do something
and give it a go without giving it a go.
Just jump straight into it.
My brain doesn't make sense.
I'm sorry.
No, don't apologize for the way your brain thinks.
Cause I love it.
Don't ever apologize for the way your brain is wired.
Do you feel like this thing you're doing at the moment though is a massive extension and
probably the closest thing that is really you to any project you've done?
Yes and no.
It is because it is probably the most honest and vulnerable I've done, most honest and
vulnerable performance I've done purely because it is my own life that I'm talking about.
So in that way, yes.
But in another way, no, because it isn't super visual.
And I really do feel like a huge part of me is like a visual, like creating like a visual
scene or visual world.
And when I think about it like that, then this fringe show I did on a roof where I made
a giant cloud that so far has felt like the closest thing in the theater world that I've
made to me, even though that was about magic and great gods and had a hula hoop best in
it.
So it's like, I almost need to pull the two things together and then it would, but I'm
not saying I am a giant cloud.
I'm just saying the amount of visual stuff I got to explode onto a stage and make the
audience look at a scene in front of them that moved and had people and all of the costumes
and all of the color schemes all fit together in a detailed way.
That is something really satisfying to me to show.
And I think that's the sense, like my Instagram feels like it fulfills a part of that need
for me to visually express my brain somewhere.
But then yeah, this show is definitely the closest thing to me.
Like if you didn't know me and you came to that show, you'd feel like you knew me really
well at the end.
But then I'd say, but actually, can you just look at my Instagram too?
Because then you'll get it even more.
There's not enough pink in my show, you need to look at my Instagram and then match them
together.
So basically you're encouraging people to look through your show and just scroll through
Instagram.
I don't know how to explain it.
But yeah, basically, yeah.
I mean, like I think that's really awesome.
Do you feel like, you know, because you talk about being hard on your sleeve, do you kind
of, have you in your life also, you know, it sounds like you've let people, the wrong
people, and be, you know, be vulnerable in front of the wrong kind of people.
I mean, is this something you're very nervous about seeing what, like someone who doesn't
know you kind of get into your head?
I'm more nervous about the people who do know me saying it.
People who don't know me, fine.
People who do know me, especially if they knew me during that time when some of these
people were in my life, that's, that's scarier to me.
All the actual people coming, that's scarier.
I guess that's the thing as well, isn't it?
Because we put up these safeguards, especially as creatives and performers, because we're
like, want to be sellable.
Like we want to be a product in itself.
And then this sort of like, is the most probably honest and extension of you.
What's your, like, are you worried that people will sort of look at you differently by the
end of it as well?
Yeah, I think so.
Sometimes.
I'm, what I'm hoping is that what they will walk away from it with is more, yes, they'll
look at me differently, but hopefully in a way where they can empathize and forgive themselves
for maybe some flaws that they have as well.
Because I think the show is all about just being able to speak the things that you wish
you had said at a time in your life, even if it's terrifying and super vulnerable.
But also at the same time, it's me admitting that I couldn't do that and I didn't have
the voice then.
And in a way I don't have that voice now because I'm never actually going to say these things
to these people.
I'm saying them to an audience, hopefully of strangers.
And that's more comfortable.
So it's both saying like, hey, look, I'm trying to do a brave big thing, but also I'm running
away from this terrifying, horrific thing where I'm telling everyone all of my thoughts
and feelings about them.
So it's kind of both at once.
I mean, it's interesting as well because I feel like it's one of those things, one of
my friends said profoundly recently, they were like, I know more about you through your
podcast than actually you telling people stuff.
That I think is true.
Totally.
People ask me straight what I think about certain things.
I will give you an honest answer, but I will probably tell a podcast because it's like
this microphone that is easy to speak into than it is necessarily for someone to ask
me a direct question and be like, what was this experience like for you?
Because I know my life has had experiences where I'm very proud of and then other situations
that I'm not proud of and mistakes that I've made.
Everyone has flaws, but also there are situations that I know throughout my entire life that
weren't my fault and took me a while to get in therapy and stuff like that to kind of
get to the other side where I accepted that.
And I was like, these situations were out of my control or they weren't my fault or
responsibility, even though some would say and dictate that that is the opposite.
Like now I don't believe that.
And I think it really does make me sort of very, I guess now as well, very resilient
to a lot of different things, especially like creative criticism and stuff and not sort
of worrying too much in depth about ideas.
But it does also make me go, okay, I have safeguards.
I used to really kind of just trust people instinctively, especially people who I ended
up in relationships with in a romantic sense and then just kind of gave them the benefit
of the doubt.
When things went south or communication wasn't 100% there on both sides, I was like, okay,
well, we'll give each other the benefit of the doubt and whether or not it was a sensible
decision at the time or not was probably, I can reflect on more now than I could like
literally at the time where I had no idea.
And I think a lot of my friends would say otherwise that they were tired of giving me
advice, which obviously I didn't take on board.
Totally.
And it's so easy to look at those situations in yourself when you're looking at them
once you've stepped out of it.
It's so easy.
So easy to have like a bird's eye view on something.
It's so much harder to see it when it's right in front of you.
And in terms of speaking more vulnerably, not to your friends, it's because you've
curated a safe space for yourself and for the person that you're talking to.
When you walk into this space being like, okay, we're going into a vulnerable place.
Am I ready to be here?
I know what this is.
This is okay.
Whereas when you're just talking to your friends or whatever, sometimes it's like you're having
a coffee in a cafe and it's like, how are you?
Did so and so say blah blah blah to you?
And it's like, maybe that hurts, but I'm not in a space to talk about that right now.
So I was like, no, I'm fine.
Or I don't want to talk about it.
It's so different when you make a space and get ready to go there.
It's like therapy in a way, because you know, you, you know, you're coming to therapy, you
know, you're going to be talking about that stuff.
So you're more prepared.
And I think that's what you do when you create like a podcast like this or a show, like what
I'm doing, you've created a space in which you're ready to be vulnerable and you're ready
to talk.
It's easier.
Yeah.
I mean, do you, do you feel as a creative as well?
Do you try and offer that safe space to people or, you know, like as much as you can?
Oh, definitely.
Definitely.
I mean, I just think, I just think I'm just one of those people that prefers a more intimate,
vulnerable conversation than a light fluffy one.
Yeah.
I think I try and cultivate those with my friends as much as I can, but I'm also very
aware of if people don't, people don't feel like it or don't want to go there.
That's so fine.
More than fine actually, because that's also part of creating a safe space for someone
is also understanding when they don't want to talk and that's you protecting them.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
I hope so.
I feel like I'm pretty good at that.
Yeah.
I want to be.
I definitely get the vibe from you, like as someone, as you say, of just meeting you today,
but I definitely get the vibe of someone who's too very kind of, because I mean, it's one
of those things as well, isn't it?
Where you, you as a creative person, but as a human being and we wear our hearts on our
sleeves, there's a lot of empathy that comes with it.
And I feel like, you know, empathy doesn't always come with trauma.
It's, you know, you don't always have these experiences and then go and dictate, but I,
you know, you talk about like being that kid where it's like went over to friend's houses
and made stuff and you know, um, and I feel like, you know, underneath it all, underneath
the layer of Tamsin is like, and you know, the aesthetic and people might be like, oh,
Tamsin's really cool.
And I'm really like this.
Yeah.
You're, you're a giant nerd.
Yeah.
Like my God.
Yeah.
So if you could tell, if you could give some advice to young Tamsin, like little Tamsin,
what would you, what would you give her?
What would you, what would be the advice?
Like, you know, five, five things you could give her.
You know, it's, it's a really hard question because I, I don't know how giving myself
advice would change some things, you know, like it would be a lot of, a lot of stuff
around self-worth and eating disorders and things like that.
I feel like would play a huge part and then it would be like, but I don't know how to,
I wish I could have given myself more confidence with singing cause I love to do it and I studied
it for a long time, but I sang in secret while I still kind of do, even though it's something
I love to do.
It's a place that sits in me with a lot of anxiety and a lot of fear.
And all I want to do is yeah, be able to sing better.
And even though I did it for so long and trained for so long, I'm not as good as I could be
because I have too much fear to do it when anyone can hear me.
So it's like, well, that's going to, that's not going to help you get better at a thing.
I wish I could somehow make myself feel okay with that, but I don't know where that fear
came from.
And then I just have no idea how I could make my teenage years any better, honestly, with
advice because I'm not around eating disorder stuff.
Like I still struggle with that.
I've done recovery things and technically in recovery, but the way I think about stuff
hasn't changed enough yet to be able to give myself advice on that.
Cause I don't know.
I don't know how to, I don't know how to fix it.
Yeah.
I think I would just say like, just start being, feeling freer to like say your ideas
aloud.
I feel like I kept so much stuff hidden and so many things that I thought was weird or
shameful or like creative things that I felt I couldn't share with my friends cause they
were cool and they wouldn't get it.
And I was like, oh, they knew that I was like building all these amazing houses for these
dolls that I used to play with when I was little.
It's like, I understand that maybe I'm a bit older and I shouldn't have like these dolls
now, but it's more like I wasn't playing with them.
Like they were my friends.
It was like I was building little worlds and scenes and scapes.
And it's like, that was just me trying to figure out how to make theatre and how to
make art.
But I didn't know that that's what I was doing.
I just thought it was this thing that I liked doing that was really shameful because I was
probably too old to like play with dolls in that way.
But I didn't understand that that was what I was doing had so much connection to what
I do now.
And that was just me practicing like building sets or like making theatre.
But instead it just looked like I was still like had dolls in my room and I was playing
with like Barbies.
I wish I was prouder of the things that I made when I was younger, but I think I kept
it really hidden because I just thought my friends were so cool and I was just not on
the inside.
I just felt like I did not fit in and I couldn't possibly fit in if they knew what I really
loved doing or if they knew I went to so many acting classes.
They kind of knew I did, but I wouldn't tell them about it.
Or if they knew I went to singing classes, they knew, but I wouldn't tell them about
it.
Like you gotta stay cool.
I think that you really hit something on the nail on the head there and I'll show you a
story as well.
But you know, like I definitely, if I were to tell my young self, well, you know, like
a lot about now, I think I would, you know, just really tell myself like to give myself
credit where credit's due and also not be so harsh on myself.
Because I was way too self-critical and like you, I had an eating disorder, which still
have lapses in occasionally.
And it's one of those things that I talk about predominantly, but also a lot of my teenage
years were very depressed and very like, you know, slacking and self-worth.
And I think one of the hardest things, and kudos to my all-time best friend who has known
me like through so many trials and tribulations kind of thing, that she's just kind of really
helped me through all of that.
Because there's a lot of sides that she saw and she stuck by me with all these years that
I was just like, I wasn't pleasant to be around.
I was very negative or I was very, I want to say just like trying to blame situations
that were external to actually what was going on.
And I think a lot of the time there was just a lot of situations where I just didn't talk
and didn't process emotion at all properly to the point where I just didn't think I was
worth anyone's time.
And I think one of the things was, you know, I had a funeral a couple of years back now.
And one of my friends sadly passed away from high school.
It was one of those things that when we went to the funeral and it was a bunch of reconnecting
with a bunch of people who I hadn't seen in years, and that was a real kind of like therapeutic
thing in some ways because I, you know, it was like 10 years, nine years later.
And then all these people were saying, I'm sorry how I treated you in high school and
you know, bullied you and everything.
But it was kind of like one of those things that, you know, in some ironic ways they have
shaped me to be the person I am today because I'm very kind and considerate of a lot of
different people.
But there was a lot of things that people didn't know about me at high school and things
that I didn't even know about myself.
But you know, the thing was I was always trying to be kind and considerate to other people.
And I think I just felt, you know, even and it's interesting as well because I have an
older brother, but I always felt alone.
And that was one thing that I definitely as a teenager always felt alone and, you know,
in my own head and you know, I had very few friends that I connected with and a lot of
them actually from high school I don't speak to anymore, which is, you know, just because
they weren't in the creative field and I just went on to go and do other things.
But I think the friends that I do have now, you know, really understand me a lot better
than I think.
And sometimes that I give them credit for.
I think that's like even to this day, I don't give myself all the credit that is, you know,
worth it.
Yeah.
It's a hard thing to do.
It's a hard thing to see yourself.
I don't know.
I mean, some people I'm sure, but it sounds like we have very similar, similar feelings.
Like I find it so hard to see myself as worthy of stuff.
And I think that's where all the chasing after people and doing a million things comes from.
And trying to reach a point where I feel like I'm enough and it feels like there's always
so much to do to get there.
Always.
And so if I find something that I love that fulfills me along the way, then thank God,
honestly, like that's...
The high school thing is so interesting.
I feel like I'm such a different side of myself to a lot of my high school friends.
Like this is a particular version of me.
And then to creative field friends, I'm like, this is a different version of me.
And it's only slowly being able to merge.
And I think, I don't know what that is.
It's just, it's a slow merge of two different parts of me coming together.
But then also there's a lot of stuff I hide from heaps of people.
I feel like I have like different facets of my personality.
And I'm like, this is the one that I have to be for this person.
This is the one I have to be for that person.
This is the one I have to be for my family.
This is the one I have to be in the audition room.
This is the one I have to be when I'm seeing my old high school friends.
I don't think I've reached a point where I get to be all of them at once.
I definitely feel like I know which ones are more embodied and more real and feel more
like the whole of me.
But the other ones, even the ones I don't love so much, I guess, are still a part of
me.
I think it's also like, you know, and you're definitely someone who I think is very genuine.
Even though you're talking about, you know, having multiple facets of, you know, different
sides that you show people.
I don't think any of them aren't necessarily the true you.
Yeah, totally.
They're definitely all the true me.
Some are more, some feel more me than others, I think.
But they're all me.
I just get to, I just have to express in different ways.
I think that's what it is.
It's a weird thing to think about.
But there's, you know, you hide, I feel like most people hide my worst days, my really
bad eating disorder days, my really bad anxiety days.
But you know, I don't really let people see them.
I've been dealing with it enough by myself.
I know how to deal, you know.
It's like, this is a lone thing.
Except now that I have a partner, they have to witness it, which is, which sucks for them.
But I mean, they're, you know, like, I think, you know, one of the things I say about my
partner all the time is, you know, she's amazing and an incredible person.
And she has just seen me in my highs and lows.
And I think I said to her the other day, I was like, there's no one I'd rather be absolutely
my lowest next to than you, which is-
That's so nice.
Yeah.
It's, you know, it's, it's very humbling finding someone who just kind of can, you know, see
through it and stuff and know that deep down your own like worries and stuff.
I feel like it's a lot about communication.
That's what I'm getting better at.
If I'm having those times, it's like the only way to get through it, if someone has to be
a part of it, or you need to talk to someone or something, you have to let someone in,
is to explain exactly what's going on.
It's like, it's not you.
I'm doing this.
I'm feeling like this because of X, Y, and Z.
And I know it's my Egan disorder brain or my ADHD brain or my anxiety, but like, I know
what one is like triggering what.
Actually that's just therapy.
I just learned to do that from therapy.
Therapy helps.
Everyone go to therapy.
Go to therapy.
So it's an important thing.
Just do it.
Yeah.
So, cause I am curious about this.
So you do have ADHD?
Yes, I do.
Yeah.
I have the inattentive type.
The very off with the fairies, dreamy, never remember where my car is, always get lost,
forget to text people back, but then we'll text you an essay about something else.
I think you've now become my favorite person because that is ideally my type of brain as
well.
Cause, but how old were you when you got diagnosed?
Just this year.
It's pretty recent.
Wow.
So it's all like new.
Yeah, it's all new.
Still, I'm still really learning about it.
And it's, it's making things make so much more sense because overwhelm is a thing that
I get.
That's the worst thing about it.
I think it's getting overwhelmed.
Everything else I can deal with.
Like being off with the fairies or dreamy and forgetful, like it's frustrating sometimes,
but unless I'm running late, which I am all the time, most of the time it's just like
a fluffy little world to live in.
Cause you're in your own head.
You're like, I can't find my keys, but my cat's really cute.
And I forgot to do that yesterday.
I'll do that now.
I am going to put some washing on.
What was I doing?
Oh yeah.
My keys.
Oh yeah.
I'm looking for my keys.
Oh, there's a book I forgot to read.
Where was I up to with that again?
Oh, this page.
Cool.
I might have a bath.
It's like, like it's not a bad little world to live in.
You just, you just, you just forget stuff and things don't get done.
But it's like, it's fine at the time.
But it, yeah, it's bad if you have stuff on.
Definitely.
Yeah.
It's really bad.
But it's the, the overwhelm is the thing that was, is the hardest thing for me to deal
with.
You said you get overwhelmed.
What's your reaction to that as well?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like I think I've been diagnosed since it was five and one of the things that I definitely
get is overwhelmed.
I think what, you know, it's also kind of the ironic things.
Like I, I do think of a lot of things.
I need a plan before I go to bed about what I'm doing, especially when I'm going to work
in the morning.
I'm like, okay, everything needs to be in strategic order, but like, um, Emily has made
the kitchen like ADHD friendly, which means everything is within a reach of me making
coffee in the morning or everything is like, you know, all the utensils are super easy
to find.
So I'm not like going to one end of the room and forgetting what I was doing and then going
back to the, like, it's all inside.
So I just do it.
Wow.
This is, yeah, that's see, I'm still new.
I don't know that I, I'm just at the point where I'm like, oh, it makes more sense why
this is like that or why I, for a really good example at rehearsals the other day, um, this
isn't my one woman show.
This is a big ensemble piece that we finished last night.
We performed it last night.
It's done, but at rehearsals a couple of days ago, there's about 12 people in this piece
and it's a development work.
So it's constantly changing.
There's a lot going on.
There's heaps of people in the space, heaps of stuff in the space.
Everything was fine.
We were rehearsing.
I thought everything was fine.
And then, um, a printer ran out of ink and for some reason that made me really upset.
Not that I, I don't like being upset or flustered in front of people.
So I, I take myself out and sit, I'm like, I just need a minute.
Hang on.
And I go into another room and I feel my feelings because I don't impact anyone, especially
when it's career, especially when I'm acting, especially when it's work.
I don't want to look like I'm, I get really nervous that if I get emotional or asked too
many questions or feel like the question thing is bad, questions are obviously good to specify
things, but sometimes in the overwhelm and in my brain, I get too many questions at once
and I don't want to seem annoying or hard to work with or not professional.
So sometimes I just need to step away.
And I was crying and I was like, why am I so upset that the printer ran out of ink?
Like what is happening?
And normally I would just chalk it up to, I'm a really, I'm just like an emotional person
and I cannot regulate myself and I'm a mess.
I'm like a messy mess of a person.
But now that I have a bit more awareness and I know I have this type of ADHD, I looked
at the day and I went, it's not the printer.
It's you had planned everything you were going to bring today and you knew that the one thing
to finish your, we have to, we have to make our own little pieces of set for this because
it was a bit of an interactive work.
The one thing that I was missing was this picture of a mouse.
That's what I needed.
I couldn't get that anywhere else.
I had to print that today, but everything else is ready and I needed an extra 15 minutes
or something.
Like I had a scheduled break and I was like, that's when I'm going to do the mouse thing.
But what happened instead was like my script got changed, the direction got changed.
All of a sudden I got put in charge of during the performance, stopping and starting some
tech because it was like kind of in my space and I could stop and start it.
A couple of directions, like blocking directions got changed.
Sometimes stuff like that is fine, but all of a sudden it was like a lot of brand new
information at once.
And then the printer didn't print.
And I was like, that was the one thing I thought I was controlling today, that I knew that
my mouse was going to print and I was going to stick it on this thing and that was going
to be done.
And that was going to be one thing that I knew I had done right.
And it looks exactly how I wanted it to look.
And that's checked off.
The rest of the stuff I can't control because it's the director.
But this one thing that I know that I'm going to feel proud of that I did also didn't work.
And that was the end.
I like had a meltdown.
I was like, I feel like such an idiot because I'm crying about a picture of a mouse.
Like what is that?
But now I know.
And I'm like, okay, no, too many things changed at once.
And it was just, I just couldn't process everything I had to do at once.
I sat on it for a couple of hours, we rehearsed, I did all the things and it was fine.
The mouse printed eventually and it was fine.
But it was just at that moment, too many new things had happened at once.
And then the one thing I thought I could control, I couldn't control.
And then I wasn't proud of this one tiny mouse picture.
I don't know.
It's easier to rationalize things now that I've been diagnosed and that things are making
more sense.
That was a really convoluted answer.
Sorry.
See, I got carried away.
I love that though.
I love the, you know, I've automatically just, can I just say this entire conversation I've
loved, I've loved to the nth degree because this is entirely how I think.
And it's really nice talking to someone who thinks as insane as I do on a daily basis
and I'm not alone.
Yeah, that's nice.
It's nice to know actually.
Because yeah, like, you know, I get that all the time.
And I think just because of dealing with it for such a long time and knowing what it is,
but even now I'll still look at videos online going, oh, I do that.
Oh, I do that.
Oh yeah, I also do that.
And it's so many traits where I just sort of try and focus on too many things at once
or I do a bunch of things and I'm like, I need to just slow down.
And not let things get, but I remember once I got so frustrated once we put, we were delivering
some Vinny stuff and we put it on the back seat of the car and cause it was so heavy,
it thought it was a passenger.
Like it started setting off the car belt alarm.
Oh no.
And I got so shitty so quickly that we were halfway through the drive that I just snapped.
I was like, I was so angry and like Emily, my amazing partner, she just kind of was like,
that's not you.
I'm like, no, that's very much the frustrated and can't control this one element.
And it's just going off.
And that's my brain's just panicking with this like scenario in the back seat.
It's interesting because, yeah, the things that get me eventually are always something,
it always weirdly has something to do with control in a way, like something I can't control.
But also I'm not a controlled, controlling, organized person at all.
And I'm okay with that.
So that's where it's so confusing.
I still don't understand that aspect, but I think it's like I want, or I have an image
or I have an idea of what something or what my day is going to look like.
Yeah.
What my day is going to look like or what something I'm working on is going to look like.
And it's the struggle to get to the finished product.
And then all of a sudden too many things change or something.
I don't know what it is, but yeah, it always ends up being something that I feel like I
should have controlled better or predicted the outcome of something that is the straw
that breaks the camel's back.
And I can get upset about or overwhelmed and I just need, I don't know, I just need to
stop everything to stop, gather up my brain.
I love it, especially the delirium when you get tired and your brain just like the neurons
get faster and faster.
That's my favorite, knocking into sleep.
This, I just write, that's list time, write lists, listen to podcasts.
Yeah.
But yeah, it's always like, I said a dumb thing to a person that if I can't sleep, it's
normally I'm repeating all of the silly things that I've said in that day or in that lifetime.
I mean, can I just say though, you are honestly amazing and such a fantastic human being.
I just want you to know that.
Oh, that's really nice.
Thank you.
And I'm going to wrap this up, but yeah, I really think that as a person, as a creative
and yeah, there's so many more questions I would like fill up a day asking you and getting
to know you.
You're just full of life and full of bouncing energy.
And I think that's like, but you're very unique and that's good thing.
Thanks.
That's really sweet.
That's really nice.
So my next question for you, Tamsen is where can people stalk you and find you on the internet?
Where is the best way to find you?
Definitely Instagram on the internet.
It's at Misty Hayes, M-I-S-S-T-H-A-Y-E-S, which has a funny story behind it because,
which I'll tell really quickly.
My mum wanted to call me Misty as a child.
And my dad, look, whether or not this is true, but this goes down in like the, the family
history books.
Apparently my dad said, I don't want to name my daughter after a weather condition because
my name, my name would have been Misty Hayes.
And I wish that was my name.
I love that so much.
I think that's brilliant.
But once I got a little bit older and I started receiving mail, it would always be addressed
to Misty Hayes and I'd be like, mum, you got it.
You got, I'm Misty Hayes.
You got it.
You got the name in the end in a really roundabout way.
And that is why my Instagram is Misty Hayes.
I still like my name, but I don't know.
There's something about the idea of being a weather condition that I really love.
I love that so much.
I don't get to tell that.
I don't get to say that very often.
So I was like, oh, well, may as well tell this funny story.
That's a great anecdote.
But no, thank you so much for joining me on this amazing adventure.
I will pick your brains off mic as well.
Always.
Go for it.
Thanks so much for having me.
I mean, I'll come back anytime.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah.
It's awesome.
I love this podcast.
I was telling you that during the week.
I've been listening to it on my drives to and from rehearsals and it's awesome.
Yeah, I'm really into it.
So I feel very honored that you got me on today.
Thank you.
That means the world.
And you're usually the last guest of my year as well.
So congratulations on being like this crazy year that is 2022.
So next week will be the Christmas special, which you know, so when this comes out, but
yeah, that's surreal.
So it's been two years.
So I'm kind of just a bit in a celebratory kind of yay.
That's amazing.
Yes.
Yay.
Congratulations.
That's a huge milestone.
I know.
It's, it's, you know, went to what three years for it.
And it's like one of those things.
Yeah, I don't, I don't, I always kind of think that, you know, that we talk about milestones,
but yeah, that's kind of like my milestone is when I have these like end of year wrap
up episodes and I'm like, oh my God, there's so much that actually.
That's yeah, that's so cool.
That's a great one.
Oh, that's, that's nice.
I'm on like a celebratory end of year milestone episode.
Yeah, take that in.
Soak it in.
I will.
That's huge.
I know.
That's so nice.
I actually, I have a podcast as well, but it's very niche compared to this.
So yeah, one day we'll hit some goals like that.
And I think I'll be celebrating too.
What's it called?
So we can just plug it real brief.
My podcast is called scalpels and tequila, and it is purely about Grey's Anatomy.
So it is your niche.
And I, I understand if you don't all jump to it, cause you've got to, you've got to
love that show.
I'll tell my partner Emily about it.
Cause she loves Grey's Anatomy.
So, oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Come and join the chat.
We have a fun time.
Um, but yes, Misty Hayes on Instagram, Scalpels and Tequila podcast.
And the show that I've been talking about is called Never Said Motel, but, um, the Fringe
Festival version will be over, but there is some more versions of it coming next year.
And we'll go and check them out.
And obviously if I ever post anything about Tamsin, you will see.
That's a nice thank you.
I'm not a stalker.
She's amazing.
Um, but no, thank you Tamsin.
Thank you so much.
Um, and yeah, if you want to go and listen to more episodes of the things we do, you
can check them out on Apple and Spotify.
I'll be doing a Christmas special next week and New Year's special.
But if you've all had a wonderful year, I'll speak to you next year.
Goodbye.
Bye.