And Lexi, how do you pronounce your last name?
Gordon.
It's not, it looks really fancy.
It looks fancy.
But it's just-
There's a story behind it.
Do you want to explain that story?
Yeah.
So my mom studied numerology.
Um, so, which is the study of numbers and fates and letters in the correlation of
everything and how it all comes together in the world.
So her name was Michelle, now it's Shelly.
And she's also got three E's and I have three E's.
So it equals the number of like karma and all these things and what you
should expect out of your life and your personality.
So she added a U in her last name after marrying my dad and changed his name
from Gavin, G-A-V-I-N and then to G-A-V-E-J-N, Silent J, Gavagen, if you will.
Um, yeah, so that's, that's that.
And then they divorced and he kept it.
So she says he liked it, but I think the paperwork was too much to change it back.
Yeah.
That's, that's a, that's an interesting time to get married and just like, oh,
my partner changed my name and I've stuck with it and the paperwork's this thick.
Like I'm not more.
It's full on.
Like it's cool.
Like I believe in numerology to some extent, like I'm not some crazy, like I
don't look at stars and see something, but it's like, I find that it tends to be
a lot more accurate than this whole astrology sort of thing that runs into.
Uh, astronomy.
Yeah.
No, is it astrology?
No, astronomy.
No.
It's a what I feel like I'm winging out.
Yeah.
Well, which one is that?
I think that's astrology.
Is it?
I said astrology.
You said astronomy.
Oh, is it?
Oh no.
Whatever we sound up.
I just cannot remember anything.
You know what the fascinating thing is?
Like we're like, oh, we're filmmakers.
And then it was like, you don't know shit astrology.
Well, I realized no one knows shit.
Like I started working at JV Hi-Fi after like, um, graduating to like make money
for a gap year and they didn't onboard me.
So I'm looking at these products worth thousands and tens of thousands of dollars.
And I'm just selling them.
And I actually don't know what they do or what they are.
And the trick they taught you is that, you know, how they've got dot points on
little cards, it's the trick is to read it quicker than them and turn it into
sentences.
Oh, so you actually don't know anything.
And so don't trust those people.
Like no one knows anything.
Everyone's just faking it.
And then I like lost trust in everyone's education and capability.
And now I'm not even upset when I don't know something.
I'm like, no one knows anything.
Oh my God.
Sad truths.
This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television,
culture, mental health, and all that fun jazzy stuff.
Today I've got my special guest and friend Lexi with three E's, Lexi Gordon.
Thanks for having me. Perfect introduction.
Thank you.
It's important to acknowledge the three E's.
You know, when I read that the first time, I was like, you know, and now that
you've explained the story, I'm like, are you guys three E's in there?
You can't criticize.
You just have to admire.
It's not Lexi.
I do occasionally get people that know me doing the L-E-X-I.
I find it offensive because I'm like, God, how long have you known me?
But especially when it's on like something like Instagram or Facebook, where
your name is literally above and they proceed to type the message with the I.
And you're like, but it's right there.
Just copy it.
Anyway, it's the skills.
It's a, you know, that reminds me of people at Starbucks when they constantly,
you spell your name in front of them and they still give you the wrong name on the cup.
You say Jerry and you get Mary.
You get whatever they want.
They pick your name.
You just, you say to them, Oh, my name's Barry.
They give you Tom.
You're like, how did that?
All right, sure.
Whatever.
The illusion of choice.
I reckon it's just a marketing point.
I reckon there was one really bad worker and then they're just like, he's onto something.
Yeah.
They were like, wow, this is sellable.
Everyone comes here because they hate how we spell.
But the issue is how many people have got in the wrong coffee order.
Cause if you say my name's Martin and then they go Michael, and like you just take it.
You're like, I think it's me.
Yeah.
But I think that's why they've learned when you go to Starbucks now that they say what
the order is, they specifically go like a macchiato or like an
iced coffee, like chocolate with sprinkles and you know,
What a mature order.
I always love going to like Starbucks is the most American franchise ever in Australia.
And the co I found out recently, I went to, I went there.
It was the best coffee advice I ever got from someone who worked there.
They were like, Oh yeah, don't get this one.
Cause it only comes with one shot of coffee.
And I was like, Oh, I'm not going to get that.
I'm not going to get that.
I'm not going to get this one because it only comes with one shot of coffee.
And it was a large and I was like, how does one large thing only come with one shot of coffee?
It was like, nah, you just add an espresso shot.
And I'm like, that's a ripoff.
And he's like, I know, but I've worked here for 20 years.
Well, I like, cause I'm not a coffee drinker.
I discovered this was probably like a year ago, which is very embarrassing to admit.
I didn't actually understand that coffee was all just the same thing with different like ratios.
That was mind blowing.
I'm like, Oh, come on.
Like, so when people say like a long black with a little bit of milk, I'm like, so isn't that just like a, isn't that then got a formal different name?
No, it's a long black with a little bit of milk.
It's so confusing.
Cause then if you go, can I have like a, like, I don't know, a latte with a bit of chocolate?
I'm like, isn't that just a cappuccino?
Yeah.
So anyway, I don't know.
I'm a little bit judgmental.
You're just like, I've got my tea and that's all I ever.
I am drinking tea.
So if I pause.
I'm like, I will say, um, before we start, you are allowed to swear on this podcast.
So go, go.
I'll try not to go too wild.
My mom's been telling me, she's been telling me off.
It's on the last part on podcasts.
I like saw a little bit of my, all right, we're turning it down.
I was just being too quick.
So hopefully I'll use his mind's a double speed.
She's got a heart.
I just passed it over to my mom for a critique.
That's all right.
Um, so Lexi, I know a bit about you, but people on the internet might not know who you are.
I'm going to get you to explain who you are and what you do.
Wow.
So vague.
Um, this could be like a long, you know, biographical bubble.
This could be like a log line.
Um, so I studied film and TV production at JMC Academy.
I graduated in 20, end of 2019, started 20, no lie.
End of 2020.
I'm like, where are we?
COVID's messed me up.
End of 2020, beginning 2021.
I now work at Stan Australia, um, part time.
I do social media marketing on the side, freelance, and I make films.
There you go.
Does that sum it up enough?
It does.
Cool.
I love, I love that you're kind of like an entrepreneur kind of person as well, cause
you're kind of very driven as well, which is like not unusual for people in this country,
but I feel particularly now it's post COVID.
It's like, we were all just like, what's a career?
And you were just like, nah, fuck it.
I'm going gross.
I thrived in, I loved COVID, super controversial opinion.
Everyone was like really sad and lonely.
And I was like, I like, I was great.
Like I got a social like media marketing diploma.
I like pumped it out.
I was like working three jobs all online.
Like I was writing films.
I loved lockdown.
Yeah, look at you now.
Yeah.
Overwhelmed.
Soon as you're out of social life.
Yeah, I know.
Isn't it weird?
Um, so which, which, which of your journeys came first?
So where did, where did, where did the Lexi journey start?
How far back are we going?
We're going back to childhood.
Childhood, ooh.
Um, so I'm a, I'm a twin.
I have a twin brother named Jayden, spelled normally.
Doesn't it have three A's?
No, that'd be Jayden.
Um, no, he's really cool.
We get on really well.
Um, and apparently I see when you're young, you don't know.
I know I wanted to be a vet, like every other person ever liked a dog.
Um, honestly.
And then when I looked at the realities of it, I'm like, oh, um, I definitely liked acting.
But my sister was the queen actress.
She's like seven years older and she was super talented.
So I kind of got knocked off my horse and I was like, yeah, maybe I'll leave it.
You can't have two, um, struggling artists.
So I let her have it.
Um, she ends up quitting anyway.
Now she's really successful in the corporate field.
Oh, good.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, better than acting, right?
No, you're kidding.
No, different paths.
Um, and then I really wanted to like do filmmaking.
I used to like write like little novels and I was like super young.
I spent like seven months at the laptop, like writing short stories, which at the time I thought was super normal.
But now I look back and I'm like, wow, where are they?
Could be inspo.
Um, uh, I used to draw a lot.
I did.
I wanted to be an artist.
But then I was like, do artists make money?
Um, and they do guys, they can make money, but I wasn't prepared to find out.
So I did it.
Um, yeah.
Is it filmmaking?
So different writers?
So I was like, I was like, okay, how, how is your financial bank account going?
Not great.
Yeah.
I don't know.
It just gets fun.
Yeah, I know.
It's just like, oh, I had a lot of money at the beginning of today and now I'm zero dollars.
You're telling me literally last week.
I was like, look to my account.
I was like, looks all right.
Like this is my spending for the week.
Dead set.
Woke up the next morning and it was in the negatives.
I'm like, I'm confused.
And I looked and I'm like Adobe, like Canva, like frame, all these film softwares and like
graphic design.
Goodbye.
Took everything in one go.
I was like, you're kidding me.
Like I know.
And like I get the Adobe suite.
Um, and it's yeah, it's 70 bucks a month.
And it's so ridiculous.
Cause I remember you could pay outright for the stuff originally.
It was like 150, what, 200 bucks.
And then you would just owned it.
Do they not do that anymore?
No, they don't do it.
Cause you've got the creative cloud and they always ask you for updates.
So that's why you pay a subscription fee of enormous preposterous price.
Um, but it's, it's, it's why I always are like, I have the, uh, like downloadable DaVinci
and not the paid DaVinci on my laptop because I don't want to ever sort of upgrade.
I do think they stuff you over though, because I've had some times where I'm like, am I
kidding?
Okay.
So this is a rant on Adobe, Adobe, if you're listening, fix it.
So what they do and what they did, I don't know is, so you know how, like when you get
one, you actually have to like download the updated software.
Like mine doesn't automatically.
So then I'll have that.
And I just assume they're on the same payment because whatever it's the same software, just
one's updated.
But instead I was getting charged double for the same thing.
I was like, are you kidding me?
Like I'm already like broke down to like, are you like, how much more do you want to
strip us?
My God.
But you remember like, this is the industry where we're basically corporations bitches.
Like, you know, we are really, you know, it's like, you said at the beginning, like actors
are our prostitutes.
Like I didn't say like that.
Martin's making me sound terrible.
I said in the industry, it feels like the way that it works in a hierarchical manner
and the way that people are used.
And there's a good quote from Peaky Blinders that will justify this.
And he says like, are you a prostitute to grace, like one of the supporting actresses?
And she says, why would you say that?
And he goes, we're all prostitutes, grace.
We all just sell different parts of ourselves.
So now I look at everything as a type of prostitution.
Not that that's a bad thing.
It's just life.
Everything's transactional.
But I think in the industry, I find that when you're first starting out, the hierarchical
system works as, you know, directors, producers at the top, actors kind of somewhere in the
middle.
But I find that actors, because they're giving their vulnerability in their mind and their
heart, and they're just splaying it out and they're just being thrown everywhere and having
to do things.
They're almost prostituting themselves out for a project, right?
Yeah, 100%.
But that flips because when they're really famous, boy, do they move everybody else around
their schedule.
They got to get their angle right.
Like it's just different.
But I mean, directors prostitute their hearts and their labor.
I mean, everyone prostitutes something.
It's just, that's what it is.
That's the game.
And it's such a like a turnstile industry as well.
And I think it's a lot less brutal than it used to be.
Like I think back in the day, especially like even when I started working in TV in 2014,
it was definitely a bit different than it is now.
But you know, it's interesting because you had that conversation of like, are we becoming
too soft and everything?
And I think pros and cons, I'm very much like you go to what you do, you focus on a job
and you try and do the best of the year, really.
Don't bully anyone on set is kind of like my sense.
Like don't be a dickhead.
But the other side of it is just also when I meet people who don't attempt anything and
I'm like, well, then you're a waste of my time.
And I don't know if you're like this as well.
Like when I see people and maybe this is just working for like TV and it might be similar
in Stan.
But I definitely have at times just been very, when I'm training people especially, and I'm
like, oh, you need to know, like, you need to know these things and you need to know
faces and you need to know who you're talking to.
And you just need to do a bit of research on everyone and like do as much home research
as you can.
So that will make your day to day experience a little easier.
And when people don't do that and you've sort of been training them for like two months
or something and it's, I start to go, okay, then I'm not bothering to train you anymore
because I've used my two months preciously to help you.
And if you haven't learned, then goodbye and fly on your own.
Because if your wings get clipped by someone else, I'm not going to feel too sorry for
you.
Yeah, no, like, thankfully the company is actually a really nice company and everyone's
it started really small though.
Like when I joined, this is like a year and a half ago, almost two years now.
Wow.
When I started, it was, it was like 65 people.
Now it's suddenly like 250.
What?
Yeah, it really grew.
Like we've now got two offices.
But was that when Stan was just like a minute?
No, they're now seven years old.
You had a first ladies and gentlemen.
Yeah, I was like, hang on, I feel old now.
Yeah, no, I think they're seven now.
Yeah.
So yeah, but they're actually a really nice company.
And I'm like, I'm not going to be able to do that.
I'm not going to be able to do that.
you know what, that's actually phenomenal because there are so many actors of like younger ages or
different experiences, whatever, that just really aren't like they just they like don't have the
stamina, which is understandable. Like no one should have the stamina for like 13 hour days.
It's exhausting. But like it's phenomenal because he really just did not complain. He just sat there
and he just did what he had to do. And like that was something I really respect about Robin.
Yeah. And I think I think the only ever complaint I got about him like was when he his character of
my set didn't have anything to say and he was just like, yes, he was a silent character.
Only because we weren't filming his dialogue bits and it was just more we needed him to repeat it
so that we could get reaction shots of people. But it was one of those things that it was like,
once we got to the end, it was it was fine. And he was very excited, but it was just getting him,
you know, getting past all the coverage to get back to here. So it's always like I do love but
I also agree because I've worked with people of varying different ages. And so, you know,
I agree with that whole thing of age is not really like some people just it's not a factor. It's not
down to stamina. Yeah. And I think I've worked with some phenomenal actors who just, you know,
we've driven like two hours away to film something and then gone home and you want to be there for
like three hours. But it's, you know, everyone just has a great time and just goes, oh, I understand
why this is like at this location and you know, absurd as it is. But everyone has a great time.
Everyone has a laugh. And at the end of the day, they just enjoy creating. Like, and I think,
I've definitely met some actors who just go, I don't know why, like, you know, they don't learn
their lines. That drives me mental. Like, have you ever had like actors who have sort of not done
prep as well? It's hard because I feel like sometimes they do but they literally just forget
it when they're not set and like understandable probably like cracks down to a lack of experience
or a lack of effort. Like, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe stage fright. I'm not sure.
But like we did one film last year, Girl, which is almost done editing, which sounds like it's
almost done. But no, we have sound. We've got post sound still. Yes, we're never quite done.
And Scarlett, who was the lead, I was like, because the character was fun. She had flexibility.
And I was like, I was like, you've got your sort of foundation, like free ball, free ball on top
of the foundation and just give it life. And that was great. But yeah, yeah, there's definitely
moments where I think actors forget their lines. And it's difficult because some, but then it
depends because in rehearsal, some actors don't like to learn their lines. And for me who,
maybe you're the same, I think every director is the same. There's like 70 renditions of the same
script. And the week before there's still adjustments to dialogue. So for them, are you
even doing that? No, I do. But my eye was twitching because it's like, I feel that pain.
Yeah, there always is. Because then you start seeing like, you know, we had like a five day
like break. Yeah. I don't know. Something like that between first block and second block. And
in the second block, I was editing dialogue. I was like, because you then you see it and you're
like, this would work better to kind of stitch it. But yeah, so I understand why some actors
in rehearsals don't want to learn it off by heart. Cause they're like, this is just going to change.
Yeah, 100%. And I think also it depends on, I think one of the things that especially it depends
on the voice. And also like I've discovered things in rehearsals that I like the sound of better
massively. And I'm like, okay, that's going in the dialogue. Like,
yeah, sometimes it sounds good in your head, but they can't pull it off and that's fine. But then
you need to, you know, move and change. Yeah, 100% is such a flexible environment. I also just,
I'm such a collaborator as well. You know, I've always asked people for different advices. I
think like that's why I love working with Robin as well. Cause he'll throw you advice to go,
this might work better. And here's a suggestion. But I also think that I, you know, it comes down
to a level of respect where they don't overtake your project. They just kind of let you, they let
they go, here's a suggestion at the end of the day, it is yours, but you know, this might do
sense that might work, might not. And I love that because, you know, I've worked with, um,
variance people. And I also think that because I've worked with people, some people who aren't,
who aren't actors by trade and they've sort of done, you know, short films and stuff with me
and even they're great. Like they've just kind of like jumped at the chance to do, like one of my
best friends in the whole world is a, um, an amazing human being. He's mostly just a fun,
creative person, but he never learned how to act in a million years, but he does great. Like he
does voices, he does everything. Cause he did, he learned how to do puppetry. He learned how to do
like, you know, um, drawing and comic style art. Like he just did it all. And he's got all this
backlog of characters that he's learned how to do, but it's not come from the proper training of
acting. So he just does them. So it's so, it's so does, but I mean, like it's, it's also comes
down to just, I guess it comes down to having fun because you know, it's, it's, it's funny when we
say we talk about skillset and everything. And I think sometimes the best kind of performances
come out of people who really thoroughly enjoy it. Yeah. It's also a tough one. It depends on the
kind of stories you're telling as well. Right? Like some stories, they really have to crack their
heart open and pour out some trauma and it's exhausting. Like that's not fun, but they have
to like everyone in the industry is in the industry because they absolutely love what they do
unconditionally. And I think that's hard because you know, like most of us aren't being paid. And
if we are, it's not a whole fortune. It's what do you mean that $50 like for the days? No, but like
some people do get paid. Some people get paid nicely, but it's still below their rates. Oh God.
Nicely for like a corporate job. Yes. You know, so I think, you know, it is a love of labor,
labor of love, labor of love. I remember like I helped a friend with their short film that has
done reasonably well and it was shot on an iPhone and everything. And I didn't expect to get paid
at all. I expected to just kind of help him out with some things that he had helped me out on a
project. And he divvied up the fundraising campaign that he had done for it and gave everyone like
120 bucks just to kind of like, I was like, that's really sweet. Like, um, just cause of labor. And
he was like, I know it's not much, but it's something I can do for people. And everyone got fed.
Um, so as one of those experiences, I think it doesn't matter what you do, as long as people
feel appreciated, because it's hard enough making a film from like, from scratch where you're
spending the writing time and you're spending like, but I think, um, yeah, it's, it's funny.
I've worked on, I've worked on a few films where I've never gotten paid. And I think one of the
things is always look for good food. Um, food is key because it will mean you've got a happy crew,
you have a happy cast. Um, and I also just think, make sure everyone feels appreciated to be there.
Like if you're not paying people or you're paying people very low, um, make sure everyone's having
a good time that you've got a good, either, um, PA or, you know, first ID who is checking in on
people and making sure they're all having fun because, you know, it's like, as you say,
13 nowadays, you don't want to sit there just going, no one's checked in on me. Where's my water?
Um, that's, that's the hardest thing. And I think, you know, like as we were talking about before,
like, you know, don't worry, darling's the prime example of a set you don't want to have happen.
Um, you know, but I think like, it's, it's one of those things that I think you learn very quickly.
You learn, you know, especially when you've been on sets. Cause I remember like the first ever set
I was on was when I was 18 and that really taught me about, you know, at least good set etiquette.
Um, and it was like, you know, three days where I was on a set and I was like, cool. All right.
This is the taught me not to do this, this, this, this, and you know, and this like, yeah. I mean,
did you, did you ever get yelled at on your first set experience?
No, thank God. But I think like I was saying this on another podcast, this might sound repetitive
now, but it is like a true experience. And I do think like what I did learn on my first set is that
the hierarchical structure of a film is really tough when you've got people working for you that
don't necessarily want a woman in charge. And that really was evident. And I'd never, ever considered
that before. I was like, you know, for this one, I'm the director for the other one. I'm pretty,
like, it just didn't matter. I was like, I'm just another person in this role, but there's definitely
a different attitude. And like, that was really shocking. Um, and that really messed my confidence
because I, not that I was being pushed over, but like, I felt like I was being so disrespected
because I was a woman and I really felt like I had to compromise on a lot of things because I got
too scared to boss people around and tell them what to do because I was like, they're just going
to find any reason to like say something nasty or misogynistic. And I was like, and I just cannot
give them a reason. So that was really hard. So in the second film we did, which was girl,
we had a 70% female crew and all the boys that came on board, we like hammered to make sure they
were not misogynist. And there was going to be no issues with working with majority female set
because I was like, I can never ever experience that again. I was like, that was the most toxic
environment for my mental health. So yeah, that like, thank God I've never had that again. And
now in every set I've usually got like about 50% female on it. And the men that I work with are
phenomenal, like just really, really lovely and just, just human beings. Like they just don't look
at you like they're working with a woman and they don't undermine you. And they're very, very
respectful. Which makes a hell of a difference. Hell of a difference. Yeah, I can imagine. I
think, can I just say congratulations on that as well? That's like fantastic. I think it was like,
yeah, that's hard. And I think, you know, it's one of those things that I always try and have
as much as possible, 50 to 60% women on my sets. But that I think, I've definitely worked with
people who are very, you know, over time who have been misogynistic. And I haven't realized at the
time until I'd been on set and then I realized how bad some people are. And I still work with some
people to this day, which I don't have much of a choice so far, because it's not my call, but I
have definitely sort of, it is interesting to see that level of change. And you know, it's something
I think that also is so prevalent to me because it's talked about through my mum, who's worked in
the marketing and communications, but has also worked for the ABC as a journalist and as a producer
and just had talked about, you know, equality throughout her entire life. Amazing, amazing
experiences that my mum has had. And I think that, yeah, you know, in relating to that,
I think having this, you know, like getting rid of the misogynistic and that the bro, it's, you know,
it's us or the girls attitude out and just having everyone as people and working hard together and
creating a safe space is really important because like, even when I'm around people who are just
a misogynistic, I get tired very quickly. And I remember like all the time, it just happens
like naturally, like I'll be out with my partner and we'll just see how people talk to her and then
how they talk to me. And I'm just, and I say to her, I say, I hate the fact that I have to
constantly stand up to go and talk to a guy because they don't want to talk to you as much
because they think, oh, she doesn't know anything. She's an idiot. Because you don't think that would
exist now, but I think it exists in every workplace. I just don't think that's ever going to change.
And I really hope it does, but I'm not feeling very hopeful about it. But on a film set, that
became very prevalent. Like, I mean, you're under time stress, you're working in an obviously
hierarchical system where people report to certain people who report to other people. And it's a
clear structure and you know, you're under stress, you're working long hours. Most people aren't paid.
Like it's really exhausting. And I think it really brings out sometimes the worst in people and
sometimes the best. And it brings out both. And that's kind of the beauty of it. But some people's
worst is unfortunately really harmful to a certain group of people on set. But to your point of
how people treat your partner versus how they treat you out. So the kid that we had, his name's
Keanu, he's brilliant. He was on Sasha's game. When I first met him, he had super long hair, like
super long hair, very androgynous look, like super cool, very progressive family, like just
phenomenal, like really awesome values. And when we first got the audition, I was like, Keanu for me
is a, it could be either sex. I just didn't even. And when I looked at it, cause I remembered I got
a call from an agent and I couldn't remember which agent it was saying that they're going to put
forward. Cause the story is about a boy who goes through the war as a girl and grows out his hair.
Right. So I remember this one agent approaching me and saying, how about I put a girl forward
to be a boy who becomes a girl and then she'll chop her hair to be a boy. I was like, would she
be okay with that? So I was expecting a girl to audition. So when I saw Keanu, I'm like, maybe.
And I was like, I don't know. And me and my producers sat there and we were like, is it,
I'm like, I don't know. Like what's this, like, you know, what's, what's their cis gender sort of,
you know, and we couldn't figure it out. And then when I met Keanu, he is just the most phenomenal
kid. He's so, so mature, but he said that when he goes out, he, because he's, you know, is quite
often mistaken for a girl. I mean, now we chopped his hair for the film and he was super cooperative
with that and he loves it. He's very open to anything. He's a very cool boy, but yeah, it was
quite amazing. Cause he said that a lot of the time they'd say to the mother, a single mother,
amazing, would say you've got such a beautiful young girl. And he'd notice how he got treated
when he was gone, his voice hasn't cracked yet. But I'm like, isn't that interesting? I was like,
but he doesn't care. He's so mature. He's like, I just hate the misogyny that exists. And I noticed
the way that I get treated differently, but it's funny because I am, you know, it's so fascinating.
And I was like, that's a really cool experiment that you get to experience what it's like for
women every single day and the different way they communicate does. Yeah. It's, it's kind of like,
it is phenomenal as well. And I think, you know, I just remember even when I had long hair back in
the day and I had colored hair, and there was like two Italian ladies living in my apartment
and they just get, young deer, they get to calling me young deer and young lady. And I was like,
oh, that's nice. And then they were just like, my favorite, my favorite was the fact that they were
just like, always talking about like the, you know, just wanting me to get a haircut and, you
know, and decide how I looked. And I was like, this is very interesting. Yeah. Good. You're good.
I'm just like feeling in the mic so I'm like louder. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was just a,
it was a surreal experience. I think like looking back at that, especially, you know, like having
now a lot shorter hair and growing it out again, it's one of those things that it doesn't really
bother me. But especially now, because I sort of very much identify as a gender fluid person. But
I think before, when I was very set in my ways and I was like young, young Marty, I definitely had
this very strict, no, I must be a boy and this must be how a boy looks. And it's so funny how we live
in this, you know, very progressive society. And I'm like, my cousin's kid has kind of had his
non-binary as well. And they're just going through their sort of like life and they're dressing
however they want. And like, whether it's in a dress, whether it's in a, you know, pants and
jeans and everything like that, it's just living their best life. And I think like they're 12. So
if a 12 year old can do that and I was 12, and we're absolutely terrified with whatever I was
thinking, that's amazing. Like this is how far we've come. But there's still kind of people out
there who go, no, you must be like this, you must be that, you must, you know, as a woman, you must
dress a certain way.
No, that's so changed. Like that's the amazing part about the way the world is progressing,
which gives me hope. But everything is very normalized and people like actually just don't
care. It's do you. And it just really does not matter anymore. Because I think everyone wants
to know. Because I think everyone cared way too much. I've noticed even with marketing, and I'm
sure your mom's realized if she's still in marketing or journalism or.
Yeah, she's just retired. So yeah.
Well, I'm sure she probably still has observed that the way that things are marketed have
changed so much because people aren't as insecure. And it's really hard to feed off people's
insecurities because it's a different type of marketing now where people aren't as insecure
and different body shapes are encouraged. So these slim T things just aren't as effective, or
a model put on proactive is just not effective anymore. Because everyone just knows it's crap.
And it's really interesting. So I'm like, the world is becoming a much safer space. But then
I had a chat with someone the other day that argued the opposite because they've got, you
know, social media. And I was like, but when I was growing up, I had social media and we had
anonymous, like question things where people are getting severely bullied. And I was like,
and you were had to look a certain way and you had to have a box gap and be, you know, borderline
like sick and ill. And I'm like, but now there's not just this white Taylor Swift appearing woman
that everyone aspires to be. You've got different curves and different body shapes, different
ethnicities, different genders. There's so many role models. Like what a time to be a kid.
Yeah. I think, I, I think it's like, it's, it's kind of one of those. And I went to the movie
theater the other night and there was this advertisement on and I was like watching it.
And I was just thinking, it felt like I was watching Heartbreak High in 30 seconds,
cause it was just like every, every identity kind of ever in this space of 30 seconds.
But I think, you know, shows like Sex Education and really kind of open the books for a lot of
people's understanding of differences in people's lives. But also, you know, like Heartbreak High,
which was another phenomenal, you know, Australian show that's changing. And I think
while, while I do agree with some elements of what that person said, and I don't think like
by any means that that's a hundred percent true, but I do think that, um, they're pros and cons,
because I do think that, you know, like, as I say to anyone who's kind of like in the older
generation who believes, you know, still in certain ways of life that, you know, they're,
they're now in their seventies or eighties or, you know, nineties, they're a lot, there are a lot
of them are close to dying, unfortunately. And, you know, whether you think that's a good thing
or a bad thing, a lot of the values they have will die with them and will not go unless they've
integrated that strongly, but you will always, unfortunately find pockets of it. Still, if you
go to the country, if you go to certain parts of the city, you will find those, and especially
certain cultures, you will find that belief because it's not, it's not always as widely
accepted as I guess we think, because we're so infatuated with our social media while in
Australia, I think it's much better than it used to be like 10 years ago. Um, but it's still got
a fair worldwide. It's still got a fair way to go for sure. But it was pretty giant step in the
past. Like five years, it's been like a leap. I mean, yeah, absolutely nothing to everything.
I mean, yeah, absolutely. 100%. And I think, I think that's due to just, you know, like
shows really putting a stance on it and really trying to push it to the popular framework of
the medium and especially having big name actors in shows that talk about those issues, because
that then makes the older generation who were like, Oh, I don't understand children to watching
these shows because their favorite actor from when they were young is in it. And they're like, Oh,
you know, um, you know, like Ian McKellen's in this, I better watch it, you know, and it's about
this issue. And it's like, you know, people just open their eyes and, um, you know, I think more
outside their box of vision, but I do also think that it is our job as young filmmakers to kind of
really also make sure that I guess we really make sure we push the agendas that we want to,
especially like political ones, um, and, and freedom of speech forward, but then, you know,
you don't want exactly the freedom of speech that everyone has, which is like the trumps of the
world and the appalling Hansons of the world, really kind of like pushing that, you know,
the systemic racism or this, you know, the, the belligerent opinions, but being aware that they
still exist. I think, I think there's a very, it's interesting. There's always going to be this
dynamic of where we stand and, and the fine line of what walking along, you know, the stories that
we do. Cause I, I do think that some of the stories where it's like, you watch a film or you watch a
short, which has been made and it's gone into a festival and it sort of beats you over the head
with a message tend to be the ones that don't do as well. I think, and, and kind of turn people off.
It's got to be subliminal. Yeah. Everything's got to be subliminal. Yeah, it is. It's subtext. It
just needs to be there, but not there in your face. Yeah. I mean, like as a director though, like,
and as a filmmaker, what's, what's your main big sort of like things and agenda that you want to
sort of tell? What stories are the specifics that you want to tell? Vulnerability for sure.
Strength and vulnerability is definitely up there. Like I think all my films kind of share,
they're all period pieces. Honestly, I just like, let's get it out there. Um, I just love them, but
so they all share that in common. A lot of them, at least. Um, I love, yeah, I love the hardships,
like the real human experience, but this hyper real sort of tone that's digestible, like the best way
you can compare it is something like promising young woman, which if you've seen, where it was
heavy and I felt like vomiting at the end of the film and I felt faint, but it was so digestible
while you were getting it because they just dosed it a little bit and then it looked a bit humid.
It'd take, you know, swallow the sugar and then some crappy medicine and then take some sugar.
And you just don't even realize how much poison you're swallowing until you get to the end and
you feel sick. But I think it's so digestible and who's just going to watch a depressing
three hour, like just it's not, which sounds like blonde to be honest. I haven't watched blonde yet.
I haven't watched it. I'm too scared. I'm watching it tonight. Oh my God. Good luck. That's a controversial, yeah, thank you. I'll need it. Um,
but yeah, that's just sounds like that to me is scary because it's just depressing.
Whereas something like promising young woman is very depressing, a super important message,
but so digestible because it's buried in humor and like, you know, comedy relief. So I think for me,
that's sort of how I portray messages of vulnerability and struggle and just the human
experience that yeah, those are the common themes. I mean, that's awesome. And I love that you can,
you know, you compare those two films. Um, cause promising young woman is a fantastic phenomenal film
and Carrie Mulligan and Bo Burnham were both phenomenal in that. Um, and it just, oh sorry,
I remember that was Emily, my first date movie, which was an interesting first date movie.
Yeah, gosh, that's a really confronting one. Yeah, I know. Um, but it's one of these films that I feel
like it really, especially like, um, you know, I'm not going to spoil anything, but you know,
go and see it. It's just from start to finish, if you want a really interesting in-depth look
at what it's also like as a daily basis to be a woman, that film kind of felt like it hit every
sort of nail on the head. Um, but without, as you say, without kind of just feeling like you're
lying, crying on the floor constantly. Have a lighter tone. It was digestible. It was comedic
enough to swallow it. And same as Joker, to be honest, like that feels heavy and you feel sick
at the end as well. But as it comes, it's pretty digestible. There's some funny moments. You've
got the live show, which is kind of funny. You know, there's funny comments going on. It's
digestible, but there's certain movies that just are not like, they're not digestible.
No. And that's really hard to sit there. Yeah. And it's, it's kind of also why like, you know,
films like blonde, uh, you know, getting slammed by critics. Oh, there's so many reasons that it's
getting slammed outside the fact that it's a dark three hour movie. Yeah. It's, um, but it's, it's
also just, I've read so many articles on it recently and I just, you know, I think there's this reading
all the articles about it and all the controversial scenes that are in it. It just doesn't, there's
nothing about it that makes me want to sit through it that I'm reading. Other than curiosity. Yeah.
Other than curiosity, but like I just, from what I've read, and this is me giving my opinion
without having seen it, but having read a shit ton of reviews. Um, but it seems like, okay. So
initially I was talking to my friend, Josh, about it, who had watched it. And he said,
just careful. It's really triggering. And I was like, triggering, like it's, yeah, I know kind of,
you know, the sexual assault she went through and I, I like, I know her life, but I'm like,
how triggering are they going to make it? Like it's a movie, right? Like it needs to be digestible.
And then like, he goes, yeah, but it's really confronting. Like they've really hammered on it.
And then I was like, no, I'm reading reviews. I'm like, how bad is this? And everyone's saying a
disgusting, like I could literally read the reviews. It was atrocious. And then I was like, okay,
I'm going to give the director the benefit of the doubt. He's a New Zealand, Australian director.
I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, Andrew Dominic. And I'm going to say that he
really tried to empathize with the female experience and what it is like, but he honed
in way too hard on trying to understand it, that he lines up being misogynistic and representing
like way too much pain instead of her artistry. I was like, okay, I'm going to take that angle.
I'm just going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Then I see an interview where he called
her and the P the women of that era in like the talent sort of field and performers, well-dressed
whores. And I was like, nah, he's just misogynistic. Like I'm like, I'm not even going to give him the
benefit of the doubt. I'm like, this is a director that doesn't respect his subject.
And yes, it's based on a book and half of it's fiction and it blows the lines. And I understand
the creativity behind that, but I'm like, he disregarded her entire talent, her being,
her performance, her entire life and legacy. He's just spat on her grave. And I was like,
I haven't even seen it yet. And I'm furious because I'm like, if this is the way women in 2022 are
represented by middle-aged men who shouldn't be directing a woman's biopic, it's not even a biopic
in the first place. But the fact that he's doing this insensitively with misogynistic male gazing,
disrespectful visual brutality, like, like in what world is that? Okay. So I'm dreading to see it
because of how visually brutal it's supposed to be. But I'm like, she's crying for the whole three
hours of, I'm like, I hope he protected her mental health, at least the actress. Like, yeah. I'm like,
Anita Amis might be scarred for life because she had a man that cannot even empathize with the feeling
of what it is to have your, you know, your womanhood stripped from you and have you like moved around
and pulled like an object. I'm like, you can't empathize with that, let alone have an actress
portray it incorrectly, like, you know, drowning in pain. And I'm like, I hope he supported her
enough through that process. Cause yeah, I don't know that film, like just from what I've heard
makes me furious. I'm very interested to watch it. Yeah. I think, I think, yeah, I didn't realize
you said that in an interview. I've just been very like, I've read the reviews, but I haven't
seen that interview. And that sort of, that hits the nail on the head. Cause I did, I know the JFK
scene particularly. Yeah, that had, that is fiction, but I'm like, also, you know, if you look at
history, JFK had his illicit affairs and everything, um, apparently. Yeah, totally. But I'm like, you
can't spit on how many dead graves are you going to spit on? Yeah, I know. Like you've got two there,
both, one, you know, both of them are, you know, dead. So like why are you making this situation
that's entirely based on fiction? If it's based on a book, which makes it harder, cause it's like,
is it his fault or is it the author's? And it's like, but he chose to adapt the book. I mean,
the book was already horrid. Yeah. The book was already like, it was, uh, you know,
received very mixed reviews since it got released. And then it's kind of like, why would you adapt
that? And I remember watching this reviewer, this, um, Grace Rudolph, who does movie reviews in the
U S and I remember her talking about it and her, she had so many opinions about the film should not
be made because the book was entirely fictional. And she was like, if anyone believes this story,
that's going to ruin Marilyn Monroe's experiences in life. And you know, this isn't true. None of
this book is based in any part of reality. And while yes, um, she had a horrible life and she
was, um, massively assaulted and everything, but you know, tell it from a truthful angle and tell
it about the real Marilyn Monroe, not about this fictionalized version of her, which, you know,
who are you telling this story for? Well, I think what could have worked, I still would have been
pissed off about it just because of who directed it. And he's a misogynist, but if he wanted it
to work, he could either have some total random blonde that resembles Marilyn Monroe, but is not
Marilyn Monroe and done it just so he doesn't spit on her grave. Or he could have it from the author
writing it on their perception of who Marilyn Monroe was from a fictional point of view.
And they have her narrated that or he, who, I don't know, whoever wrote the book, that would
have been okay. Cause I would have been like, okay, you've made it obvious that it's fiction
and you've really hammered the point that it's from a perspective of perception of who Marilyn
Monroe was, but it is fiction. And that would have hammered it in for everyone. And everyone would
have been okay with the delivery of it. But I'm like, the fact that it's presented as a biopic
when it's not a biopic, it's fiction and it's disrespectful, misogynistic and brutal. That's
when I'm like, you haven't blatantly made it obvious enough that it's fiction, you know?
Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's, that's, that's where I sort of dislike it as well. Cause it is
really advertised as a very much a biopic. The lens is wrong. It's the stories, whatever. I
disagree with it. But if you're going to tell that story, just different lens. Yeah. Oh, a hundred
percent. I mean, like, you know, staying on track with a misogynistic angle as well, because I do,
I do think that there's a lot of films out there that do inaccurately represent women as well. And,
and there are a lot more female directors obviously come into the fold. Like I think what,
especially in Disney, which is now predominantly trying maybe more, it's Marvel division,
trying to push forward a lot of female angles. Cause there's a lot more shows like She-Hulk was
written entirely by women and in directed entirely by women. Jessica Jones, when it was on season two
was entirely directed by women. It was not directed by men. I didn't think any of the seasons
actually were ever had a male director because that was the whole point of it was to deal with
sexual assault, rape victims and you know, everything. So it was really trying to just
hone in on that angle of, of what it's like to be a woman kind of, you know, living on their own and
you know, recovering from trauma. And I think, you know, even though you put it through a superhero
lens and everything, I think it is smart because it does talk through a lighter tone, especially
with She-Hulk through the lens of comedy, as well as kind of just knowing what it's like to be a
female lawyer and be treated like, like a little bit differently by your appearance and, and you
know, whether you're a giant green monster or you're like a human being. And I think, you know,
there's definitely other films that I've like, I remember I saw a film not long ago with called
misbehavior, which was about the beauty pageants. And, you know, the rights between those I've seen,
you know, like, you know, I remember years ago, I made a complaint about the fact that
women aren't paid equally. And all my friends who are men were like, no, that's not true. They're
all paid equally still to this day. It's a huge debate. I don't really get involved because I'm
like, look, I don't feel like I'm informed enough on that subject to know if maternity balances it
out or if this and that. Like, I feel like I can't get involved in that argument, but it is fascinating
to hear how many men are against it without any knowledge. Like they don't do what I do and say,
I don't know enough about it to get involved. They just take the side of it's equal and it
lands up being fair. I'm like, on what basis? Do research first? Like I haven't done enough
research to even bother others. I won't. No, and that's fair. And I mean, like, I only know
the research because of mum. So it's like a saving grace that, you know, but it's massive. And I
remember I had this conversation with one of my coworkers who I used to work with and I told her
what I was being paid and she had worked there longer and she was being under paid less than me.
Wow. That's not good. I was significantly younger like then her, she was in her thirties and I was
in my early twenties and I was like, how am I paid less than you? It made no sense to me,
but it was basically because, you know, she was a woman and our manager at the time was a sexist
misogynist. So it was kind of one of those things that we, you know, was pointed out at,
but it's still, I don't think has fixed it because, you know, there's certain parts of
our industry that are still like have certain people in power, but it is getting better.
But in saying that, like when you, you know, for you though, when you go just in general to work
or after scenarios and stuff, and especially like, you know, through, do you decide constantly what
you're aware based on what kind of reactions you'll get unsolicited reactions?
No, like I'm actually very unapologetically myself.
Oh, thank Christ.
Yeah. And like, I don't know, I feel like judgment doesn't really affect me as it used to.
I feel like I used to really be affected by it when I was younger. And I feel like I went through
this whole development of kind of growing up and growing out of it and being like, who actually
cares? Like, you know, it's going to bother them and that's their opinion. And not everyone has to
like me and like my outfit and like my decisions. And that's absolutely their journey and none of
their business. And if they can do whatever they want and, you know, I don't care. Like, I just
think everyone's on their own journey. And at the end of the day, like, it's just hate, you know,
bruise hate. It's just really not, the judgment just isn't worth it. And if it doesn't affect you,
like who actually cares? So no, it doesn't affect me at all. I wear comfy stuff when I go to set.
I like fashion. So I try to wear comfortable stuff on set that I feel like I look good in
and it's practical and I don't really care.
Can I just say I love that. I fucking love that. Because I mean, like, you know, we live in such a,
I think, you know, people dressing a certain way or sort of constantly worrying about what they
they wear versus like the reactions they get. And, you know, it doesn't happen to everyone,
obviously, but it can happen a lot.
That's a tough one, though, because I feel like that would be a really good question for someone
that dressed really feminine though. Because I feel like the like I'm on the opposite thing.
Like I don't show a lot of like I'm constantly in pants and female suits and
Can I just say though, that's fucking awesome.
Thank you. But I feel like it was actually interesting though,
sidetracking. But I was actually out with my partner, Brad, who's amazing and supportive.
Giving him a shout out because I did on the last one.
You're like my partner, Brad, please tell him that you exist.
But like he is very accepting of the way I dress. And minus some of my over the top extra stuff
where he's like, is that really necessary? I'm like, it absolutely is. The more attention,
the better. But no, so
Especially the attention from him.
He loves the drama. He's even said yesterday, I was like, am I being dramatic? He's like,
but I'm dating you for the drama. I'm like, good. That's why we're here.
But I was like, I was at his place and I was quite ill and I couldn't stick to work and whatever.
So he just gave me his clothes because I didn't bring appropriate clothes to go to the shops.
So he gave me like his board shorts. He's like very surfy. So he's got like whatever.
And he gave me like an oversized jumper. And I just wore like my high socks with his slides.
And I put on his beanie and my hair looked like fowl. So I just wrapped it inside my beanie.
So I did look like a dude to be 100% honest. And we went to the shops and I was like,
Brad take notice of the looks and everyone stared for longer than they would. Or they did a double
take. I'm like, how fascinating. Like my appearance really affected people's like perception of what
they knew to be a woman or a man that they had to do a double take. And I'm like, I really just
don't care. I'm like, I'm very comfortable. I feel good that my hair is not visible. I'm like,
I just want to go to the shops and buy some burrata. I don't want to be like,
but it was interesting. I was like, take a look at this. Because I'm like, I don't, they're insane
that he's got long blonde hair and he's a very gorgeous looking person. And I feel like sometimes
he does get a double look as well. Because you know, when he's well shaved, you know,
he can look like a really elegant woman. So I think he also gets a double take sometimes. So
it's not something that's new to him, but I think it was interesting for like us both to observe
the double looks together because he had just shaved. I'm like, oh, there we go.
Oh my God. It's always like, isn't that always the way? We have that happen around here as well.
Like, cause I wear a lot of like, you know, I have a lot of jumpers and they're originally all designed
for women. This is why I hate like stereotypes, but they're so comfy and they're very bright.
I love bright clothing. Yeah. I love that you're so bright. It's so happy. I love it. It's so good.
But I remember I was, my amazing, Emily's amazing mother, Julie gave me this sort of cardigan
and I keep wearing it. And I love it. It's so great in winter, but I remember this one guy down
the street was just like, nice, nice fancy dress. And I was like, what this really comfy cardigan
that I'm wearing that just fits so well around my frame. Sure. This is fancy dress. I was like,
this is just comfort, but it's, it is interesting because you know, like we, we, we do talk about
what we wear. And you know, like I remember I went to a Mardi Gras once and had completely shaved
my legs. And I was like, I understand now why some women shave their legs and some men shave
their legs. It's so nice. When it grows back, it hurts. Oh yeah. When it grows back, so it's a
bitch. But it's just like one of those nice, you smooth leg feeling. But it's, you know,
I feel like the winds people have never tried these things that, or like, you know, dressed a
certain way or they just, they haven't ever attempted. They care more. They, they get worried
more and then they get more judgmental. Like I have a really amazing dad. An amazing father has
always been very supportive growing up. Even, even though he, like he didn't come from a very
supportive family, he's been amazingly supportive to me. And I think one of the things was when I
was about like 16, 17, they bought, no actually when I was 18, they bought me my first jacket,
like, like blazer thing. And I remember I specifically went to Myers and it had like
velvet on the top collar. I was like, I need this one. And over time, like I then just upgraded to
more velvet jackets. And I remember him saying, he was like, you look, you remind me of David Bowie.
Like you just remind me of someone who doesn't give a shit about what people think and is just
so androgynous and just living life. And I was like, my father, who is just particularly never
fit into any of the molds. Um, it was really quite flattering. So I do think that he is just like
one of those people who just goes and, you know, is really proud of what his kids have become.
Um, but, um, you know, there, there is the sense of, I think, you know, that some parents, it does
go over the heads of, especially when I hear some friends, you know, especially some of my, um,
you know, uh, trans friends or, um, non-binary friends that their parents do struggle with the
concept, you know, like, um, or kids that do change their names. That's another controversial
like topic where you're like, I want to change my name and their parents are like, what, do you
hate your name? Do you, do you know? And it's so interesting that then, um, you know, like we live
in this society, a social, like everyone has to do a double take. And I don't think that anymore.
I don't, I don't stare at people anymore. I stare at people from a creative point of view.
Yeah, same. I just observe. I'm like, just there might be inspiration somewhere.
I know. But I think that comes from the acting side of our brain as well. Like it comes from
the creative, like, how do I portray this? And then it goes to directing side. Like we're massive,
massive nerds that we are. Um, like, do you, do you still now to this day, though, sit in a park
and sort of write notes on people? No, but I do people watch, like I find they do really,
some people do really interesting things and they've got really interesting quirks and habits and
ways of being or a way they walk or like a phrase they say. I'm like, I'm just going to remember
that. I'm like, cause this could come in. This could come. Um, what's the weirdest thing you've
made note of? Oh my God. Oh, okay. So I was at, was that a wedding? It was actually my sister's
wedding. And there was a glass and someone near me was really drunk and they're like, the glass was
kind of like semi filled with water and they like got really close to the glass with like, their
eyes were literally sitting on top of this glass and they were pouring more water into the glass
and just like looking at the way that the light was hitting the glass as the water was going in.
And there was a speech going on and they were just absolutely out of it. I was like, what an
interesting little thing that fascinated them. But from a visual point of view, it looked quite
cool and quirky watching them do it. And I was like, not bad. I don't know. There's something in that.
Oh my God. That's not, it's like not like crazy, but I just remember observing it. I'm like,
I don't know why I'm so attracted to this person's attraction to this glass. I was like,
but the way they were like staring at it, I was like, they're invested. Like I'm invested.
This is storytelling 101. Just keep me intrigued.
Yeah. Right. It was so fascinating.
Did you turn that into a character?
No, I haven't yet, but I will when I have a drunk character, I'll know what to do.
Yeah. Cause when you write stories and I'm, do you write most of the things you direct?
Yeah.
So is that kind of surreal? Are you looking forward to directing something you didn't write?
Um, no, it's not a no. It's not an outright no. Um, I just think I have a very particular style
in terms of the visual elements. And I do think it has, it does have a more hyper real vibe to it.
And I'm finding a lot of the films going through the, I was actually talking about this on the
way here to someone, how a lot of the films going through the festival circuit are very slow and
they're 15 minutes slow, wides of someone walking and there's three pieces of dialogue and it's just
very like, I don't know, plain. And it just is, it's got a very like, I don't know. And there's
absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's just something I've noticed. I'm like, I, I'm not that
style. I couldn't be, if I wanted to try. So the piece that I would direct for somebody else,
they'd have to be okay with the visual style that I have. And if they're not, then that's just really
not going to work. So that's hard. Hyper realism. You better love it. Just like colorful, hyper real,
like period piece, the frame that I give it, like it's just not, it's not for everyone. But um,
yeah, I think a lot of people, when they give their piece off, they want to direct it the way
that they would have done it. Yeah. And I, like, I couldn't do that to be honest. I literally like,
I'm like you as well. I'm very specific about certain like, and, and it's interesting because
I have a lot of different, you know, theatrical choices, especially with scripts. Um, and I've
definitely read scripts, which are being written by, and not mostly great writers, but I've just
clashed with visual choices with them. And then just like that, you know, don't want to don't want
that visual choice. And like, fair enough, like that's not for you. Cause you know, I will always
think about different ways that you can shoot something and, you know, think about like the
processing and sound, sound, but it is interesting because of like, I think, cause it's the editing
background of me. It's like, if I don't have a film in my head from start to finish knowing how
it's going to play out, then you know, like it's kind of weird. Cause I've, I've, I've edited a lot
of films and I always notice when people skip or miss something. And I think, you know, especially
like, and you probably get this, you know, when, when you do your first film or you do your first
over, like it feels like a training practice round. You're like, Oh, everything sucks. I mean,
everything is always just a practice round. Right. Like it's the same as like musicians where they
look back on the album they did two years ago and they cringe. Like it will always be that way. Oh
God. Yeah. But I, do you ever like what's your first film and you're like about 50, 50 things.
You're like, I could have done that better. 100%. And it's starting and it was where you were at
at the time and that's fine. And it's always interesting. Cause there's a two year, like
between filming and post and release, it's almost a year or two years. It's so weird. And people,
I think think that there's such a high turnaround, but post production. Oh my God. I could rant
about this forever because I have had so many people be like, how long is post for such a game?
Like you finished shooting that. Can you show it to us? I'm like, what thousands of hours of footage
or you think it's just editing itself. I'm like, Oh my God. Like, which is crazy because so many
people don't understand. And yesterday I was sitting with my stepbrother, like my stepmom's birthday
and he goes, Oh, you've just done Sasha's game. Like, so what now two, three months and it's done.
I'm like six, seven months. It'll be done. Maybe like if like visual edits done by then. Yeah.
It's crazy though. Cause people like, but I also think it's because the people we're getting aren't
necessarily paid and they have other jobs and other projects. So it's, they're not editing full time.
Yeah. So I think that's definitely an element of, you know, considering how long something will take
to actually wrap up, which is the worst part. Cause by the time you've edited it, you hate it
because you've made so many choices you would never have made now, you know, because there's so much
time after you've shot it. I think that I think the longest I've ever had a film not completed was
about like other than one film that it just like, I was too young to really actually complete. And
it is out in the public domain. It's called not enough time. It's got two scenes missing. If you
want to go on YouTube, not enough time with my first and last name is on YouTube. It was shot
in a handicap with a microphone, literally duct taped to the side. Cause I was like straight out
of high school. So I didn't know how to film, but I think what was interesting is like it had a
structure. But there's so many things I would have done differently now. And obviously I had a proper
crew, but it was also one of those things that I look back and go, and I showed it to one of my
friends and he was like, the editing is really good though. That's the thing. He was like the flow
and the edit you got it like from A to B, like you, you, you get that. And he was like, the
direction isn't too shoddy either. So I was like very happy theoretically at the time, cause that's
like 11 years ago now when I made that. And then, you know, so on and so forth, but I've been on
some sets, you know, especially like I'm editing some films at the moment for other people.
And that in between like my full-time job and you know, other projects and stuff and a podcast,
it's like, I do get messages occasionally and going, Oh, how's the edit going? I'm like, I've
told you, I've had no time this month. Like, and they're like, Oh, well when's the next availability?
And I'm like, this is why I'm sharing the workload with someone else. Like, and they're moving house.
So I have a friend who I do a lot of projects with and he's moving house at the moment. So
he is going to take over some of the editing duties so we can cut it in half.
But you know, that's the only way that we can sometimes do it because we're, you know, like
a busy and especially because there's a project that I'm not going to pay for. So it is going to
take, I have to prioritize things, you know, unfortunately that I'm stuck to actually contract
based to stick to. And yeah, it's also kind of interesting because, you know, whether you
work in freelancers, stuff like that, I always get people's commitment and crazy schedules.
Cause it's like, you know, people will just need to chop and change constantly. And
it's, it's a nice industry, but I think, you know, when you don't have as much experience,
especially with post, that's where it can kind of like, cause you know, the people we sort of,
you know, because we have such a good understanding of post and not a lot of people do, especially
when they're just performers, they think that, Oh, I can just get the rough edit and that will be
good for my like, yeah, it's hard. Then the whole show real thing. Like I'm very much about though,
if the editor has time, I like, I like to give the act is something like this time round. I was
super like my cinematographer is a gun. Like I could rave about him forever, but he, he just,
he works harder than anyone I know. And he's just curious. He's just a curious person. So he just
did an entire rough cut. That's not his job. He is not the editor. He did an entire rough cut and
he just shot it through to me. And I was like, you know, it's like not bad. I'm like, it's rough as
hell. And he knew as rough as hell, no glitches and whatever. But I was like, you know what, it's
something I can look at and I can actually now give the actors something for their show real and
give them options that they've got something temporarily. And it was great because I could
send it to the composer. I mean, it was 10 minutes shorter, the cut that he did, because he didn't
leave moments for suspense or anything, because he was more looking for do the shots line up from
cinematography perspective. But I was like, that's actually great. Now I can give it to the composer
and he can start on the soundboard in the meantime, that the actual editor is doing the precise
editing, which is obviously taking longer. But yeah, it says, I mean, that's lucky. That's really
rare that you have someone do that for you.
I understand. And I think like, I think when I direct a lot of my own things, and I was saying
this to one of my friends, because my background is editing, it saves a lot of time. But especially
like about to work on some radio stuff next year. And he was just like, oh, we need someone really
skilled. And I was like, this is me. I know how to edit a video. So and if I need help, I know about
50 people willing to kind of give pointers, because it's really easy. And I think he was just
thinking like, oh, you'll need to pay a professor who's like 50 years experience. I'm like, no,
you don't. You need to know the ins and outs of what's workable and make it work. Because you
know, you're limited to budget and constraints and you know, it might be location and everything. So
you make the best of what you do. But I think, you know, it is one of those experiences that,
you know, I've, I've definitely had, you know, DAPs as well edit, edit sequences. I always get
like, I always do like it when directors have a go there, you know, just what shot they, what
shots they like, and they just go, oh, I love these ones. But especially like I've seen, you
know, some edits, which are fantastic. And then other edits that I think, you know, you know,
aren't crash hot. And you I think also stylistically, I do make different choices.
And I remember my first big project, which was straight out of TAFE, which was editing with one
of my TAFE students. And we did this film. And I remember he was living in Brazil at the time. And
he was like passing files through to me. And I got really sick with like some sort of like three
months pneumonia or something like that was awful. But I remember just getting to the point where I
was looking at the edits and I was like, are you editing this film or am I like, because he would
send me over like sequences that he had cut together just to be like, this is how I want it
edited. And I was like, okay, so am I copying and pasting and like, yeah, like, that's I think when
the point, because I love sitting down with directors and them writing notes and going, this
is a cut or you sit with the person and you edit together. That's a great experience. But yeah, a
lot of the time, you know, some people don't do that. And some people aren't great at communicating.
Like I've definitely worked with a lot of directors who have, it's their first time and they have no
idea actually what they want. And then they go, oh, you know, that's, that's good. And then a lot of
them don't even get shined. I was telling somebody like a few weeks back that I like, I think about
like, you know, out of the 12 projects I've edited, only about three of them are online.
Out of things that I did.
But are they going to festivals?
No, none of them. Because they just throw them in the bin. The directors just go, oh, that was an
experience and never do anything with them. And it's just really frustrating because it's like,
you know, and that's why I think I personally had disdain on like a lot of directors at the time
when I was still like, doing films was they were just, they didn't do anything with the product.
They didn't really push for it to go forward. And I think, you know, that takes drive.
That takes real, you know, but I guess when you're, you know, when you're an actor director and
you're in your own projects, that might be a personal thing to, you don't think it's good enough.
Like how do you, you know, like, also because you're dealing with so many different personalities,
how do you make sure that everyone's sort of like happy with the product as well as yourself?
Like, do you worry about what other people think once post and everything is finalized and it's
all done? And do you kind of just hope that everyone loves it?
Look, everyone's got different tastes. Like you actually cannot have everyone love it.
Like no one will like, even films that have like one Flickrfest, I watched and I was like, really?
Like, you know, you're never going to have everyone objectively love it.
Like it's different styles and I can acknowledge my style is not for everyone.
So no, I don't really worry. Like obviously I'd like them to like it, but like, I can't ask for
them to like it. Like if they don't, that's totally their opinion. It's sad, but it's,
you know, you get harder. But I do send it to most of the heads of departments, like the rough cut
for their feedback. Not that every single thing they say will be taken into account, but it's
interesting. So like girl, we've been editing, the editor lives in Italy. And I'm like,
girl, we've been editing, the editor lives in Italy. Yeah. She's amazing. I actually got a rough
note. I got the second fine cut today. So I just like went through it, but on the fine,
like first fine cut, we sent it to, she sent it to a few of her friends and I sent it to my
cinematographer. I sent it to my soundie. I sent it to the production designer and a few trusted
friends from an audience perspective and then a film perspective. So that like, you know, Gordie
who is in sound could tell me, you know, feedback story wise and like visually, but he'd probably
mostly focus on the sound. And then I go to Chris who tells me that there's actually, because we've
started down, we dropped a frame. And then that's really valuable because I mean, at the end of the
day, a lot of the heads of departments are being paid, but it's still their work on the line. They
want to be proud of it. And if it's dropping a frame that reflects poorly on Chris, who's a damn
talented cinematographer. So, you know, I think it is important that the heads of departments at least
like are happy with what they put forward, but they don't need to like the product, but they need
to be proud of their contribution to the product because it's part of their showroom and their
portfolio. So yeah, I think films have different tastes and everyone's got different tastes and
it's never going to be everyone's taste. No film is ever. But as long as they're proud of their
contribution, it's something they can show because they weren't getting paid a ridiculous salary.
You know, it's important that they're like, you know what, my work in that looks really good. And
there was an element of that that happened on Sasha's game where we had a schedule issue because
some extra didn't rock up and he was a featured extra. So we had to get one of the crew and we
had to reorganize the schedule. And because of that, we couldn't have the one actress's hair the
way I really wanted it done. And Clara, who was our hair and makeup artist, obviously wants to be
proud of her work. So there was a whole conflict of hurry up, we need to get it done. But also guys
respect Clara's work. It's her portfolio on the line too. And she's doing this because her name's
attached. So there was this weird compromise of we need to hurry up. But you know, we also want her
to be proud of her work because she is doing this and it's her name attached. So I think there is a
really tough line of, you know, every department thinks their department is the most important.
That's always the case. But you need to find a compromise of okay, Cameron, you only have this
amount of time. And production time, you only have this amount of time. And I understand you want it
to be good, but like we cannot offer you more. Yeah, 100%. It's tough. I love that as well,
because it's such a finite, you know, decision as well. And I do agree with you as well, because
it's one of those things that I want everyone to be proud of, you know, the product that goes out
there and you know, goes out into the ether. And there are going to be some people who aren't proud
of it in the end, like five, 10 years down the track, or they might be like, it was okay. You
know, obviously you can't control that what people rethink later. But you know, it is very true
because I do agree that even if you're not being paid or you know, especially if you're like,
you know, cinematographer, editor, sound editor, sound operator or sound editor, it's very important
that you will love the project, you know, going forward, especially with color grade as well.
Like, I always feel like, you know, I want an amazing DLP that I've worked with before Emma Payne.
I remember I sent her the color grade when I was color grading a short we did. And she was the one
who recommended me the lot that she used a lot of the time. And it's just, she was just really
happy with it. And she, she gave such good feedback on on stuff. And I was like, this is really
appreciated. Because like, as an editor, it's just really useful information to make sure I'm doing
something right and that you're happy with that at the end of the day, I don't have to stress too
much about. Because you know, I always think like that, how, you know, how would I feel if I watched
someone else, you know, like something I did, and then it looked terrible on screen.
Oh, it's so hard though, because that post production stuff's difficult because production
designs in camera, like every post thing's in camera, right? So, you know, it's there, it's done.
If you don't like it, you say it there and then but post production is hard because you're literally
taking the cinematographer's shot, and you're changing it, but that's going to reflect on the
cinematographer because, you know, I mean, often people that aren't in film don't even know there's
such thing as a color grader. So it will reflect on the cinematographer, you know, and that is a
really tough, you know, balance of what do you want, what do they want, and is it ruining the shot and
compromising their vision as well. It's a tough one. It's tough. Yeah, I mean, like, you seem to do
really well though, with dealing with all the personalities, because you know, you're able to,
it sounds like you, you have a really good solid team as well. Yeah. Has that, has, have they worked
with you throughout all your films at this point? Not all, but most. So Gordy, who's an incredible
sound recordist and sound designer, he's now worked on me with for three of them. Same as Chris,
when I introduced them, there's actually a really funny story of like, because they're both just so
damn talented, and they're both so stubborn. And they just hit heads. And it was funny, but now they
get on really well, because we work together frequently. Tessa has been on all of my projects,
she's an amazing production designer. So I do try to keep the way I look at it is kind of like,
it's a weird way to go, but you go shopping, right? And you kind of like, you know, on the one film,
you go shopping, and you try a bunch of things. And then the next time you go shopping, you keep,
you, you keep the things that you enjoyed, and you want to have again. Yeah. And then you put new
things in the basket. And then if selling from there is really good, the next time you go shopping,
and you keep more things in your basket. I see that with films, or I'm like, I want to rotate,
obviously, the kind of crew I work with to see who's out there, what's out there, who do I work
best with. But like, you know, on films, I'll work with Tessa. And I'm like, I'm going to keep Tessa.
I love her, I'm going to keep her in all of my films. And then I worked with Chris and Gordie,
I'm like, they're staying on all of my films. And then, you know, I met Siobhan on, who was an
incredible costume designer on Sasha's Game. I'm like, I'm working with, you know, it's kind of
like, eventually, you have a cart of just everybody that you loved working with. And you would work
with again, and then eventually, you've got a dream crew. And it's everybody that you just had
the best experience with. But you know, everyone has different chemistries on set, you know,
sometimes it doesn't knock down to just talent. It's also about company. Yes. And chemistry
personalities. And I found that everyone that I now work with frequently, I've got a damn talented,
but I've got a really good working chemistry with them. Yeah. So that's important too.
Yeah, that's that 101. Yeah. It's like the hardest thing to kind of crack. Because you,
you know, it's good. It's interesting that you say butting heads as well. Like, you know, I,
I feel like when you have a good working chemistry, and you both kind of know what page
everyone's on, it's very easy to kind of like, gel that together and make it,
make that cog to suddenly start moving very quickly and efficiently, even though,
you know, like post and stuff can take like nine months.
No, it's crazy. But yeah, I don't know. I think when you've got a really talented crew, and you,
the foundation of your relationship is built on respect, trust and belief, then, you know, I think
you, you won't really lash at each other, even though on film sets, you get stressed, and people
say things they don't mean, and they get stressed, and they snap, and whatever it is. But if they
really respect you, you just don't have that. And with all those people, I've just never had that.
And I'm so grateful that I haven't, you know, but I think that comes down to compatibility of working.
Yeah. I mean, fantastic, though. Yeah. Oh, so count my blessings. I really do. It's crazy.
I mean, I do want to talk to you, though, a bit about like, your own mental health as well,
because you did raise it earlier about like, are you, would you describe, how would you describe
your mental health? Like, and where it sits? Fluctuating? Probably. Isn't that everyone?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. In relation to films,
or work? In both, and in life.
In life? In life, pretty okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think pretty good, pretty optimistic, but I think,
I think work, I think I put more pressure on myself than an average person. And I acknowledge that,
and I talk about that often because I know I do, but I won't stop. I have goals I want to hit by
certain dates and a certain age, and therefore I have to just do it. I have to hit it. So I don't
know, I think the misogyny on set, that and being undermined, and that really messed my mental health
and self-confidence. Bouncing back from that took a while. My boyfriend was super supportive
throughout that. But that was really, really like confronting. I just didn't ever think that would
sort of happen. So that was really shocking. After that, though, doing girl was great, but
also stressful. There was COVID, and COVID was fine with me though. I was fine through it. COVID
was just like- Yeah, I was fine with COVID. COVID was fine with me. We had a great budding relationship.
No, we did. But no, obviously it wasn't preferable for film sets or for anybody else's financial
situation, and I totally empathize with their experience. But I was fine with it. My mental
health was actually thriving, to be honest. I am a very social person, and I do try to, but I'm also
a very career-driven person. You can't have everything and have a partner, which is its own
commitment. So I think that I struggled to find time, and I was burning myself into the ground.
So COVID just allowed me to socially just drop everything. I could just focus on my career and
my partner. The way my sister brings it up, and she brings up a great point, it's some study in
some book, where they say you've got four stoves in life, and you can't have all four stoves running
at the same time well. It's like career, social life, partnership, and oh, there's one other that
I will not remember. But if you don't have a social life and you don't have a career, but you've got,
I don't know, your partner, then you and your partner are going to be really good, because
that's the only thing you're focusing on. But if you have all four on at the same time, they can't
all be 100%, and you're compromising the quality, which is why some people don't get married in the
industry, and they just have the career one burning. And that's why they're so good. And then eventually,
once that's got momentum, they will light the partner one. And then they'll light the, whatever,
the social one. So I think I had way too many on at the same time. So COVID allowed me to drop it
and just focus on what I needed to, and it really helped my mental health. And then I think getting
out of that was really difficult for me, because then I had more jobs, more commitments, a stronger
relationship with my partner, and then I had to add a social life again. And I just didn't have
time. And the social pressures of going out and doing this and staying up late, and I just couldn't
balance it. So that I struggled. But then also, I think in film and, you know, like having other
jobs, and, you know, you don't have a five day working week, you have like a 12 day working day
plus six days of working, you know, maybe get one day free if you're feeling lucky. Yeah, but it's
a labor of love. And you do the work, you know, film isn't really considered work, but at the end
of the day, it's not social. So it does fall into the career category. So I think it is tough. So
I think I burnt out really badly. After Sasha's game, I was like three weeks, couldn't walk,
couldn't move, went into work, and my boss turned me back and said, go home. Because I just, my
energy was gone. I just looked terrible. I was, yeah, I was really drowning in myself. I couldn't
eat. And my partner was super helpful through that. But yeah, that was a bad burnout. And that really
messed with me. But yeah, so look, I think it's fluctuating this industry. Like I feel like it
always will. And you deal with different characters and other people's happiness. And you know, if
you're in a director, producer or first AD role, you're making sure everyone is happy. And you know,
on Sasha's game, there was 85 people. So that was just exhausting, the pre production of that. And
people forget that you've done pre production too. So you get to production and they've just got all
these demands. And they forget that there was so much that went before that you just haven't just
started. You're like still chugging. So I think that's kind of, yeah, that was hard. And I really
burnt out. But I want to say I've learned my lesson, but I don't know. Have I? I don't know.
I mean, maybe not.
Yeah, probably not. Like, I don't know. I have like ambitions and I like want to hit them by a
certain time. And you know, unfortunately, I'm better at boundaries. I'm better at saying no.
Oh, that's good. That's the takeaway from the burnout.
Yeah, I know. It was like, I can say no now.
Well, it's hard to say no.
Oh, it's so hard to say no. I used to be really bad with it. I think in particular this year has
taught me a lot to say no to. And it's mostly not because of COVID. It's mostly because of a whole
bunch of health issues. But it's really made me go, okay, no, like to a lot of scenarios. And I
think it's also just like, you know, I've only got one family. I've only got one partner and I've got
a career. So it's like, those are the things that I'm going to really focus on and make sure are
stable. And I think also from having such a tumultuous, I think, you know, not all my credit
friends, but I think also having a lot of friendship related drama this year, you know,
external to actually what's even going on in my life is so dramatic that I'm like, okay, well then,
you know, step away, kind of recoup, get to like solidify my own life and make sure that's going
afloat. Because at the end of the day, you know, as you say, it is a lever of love. Like, and I do
eventually want to have a family, but I also want to be there for my family. And I want to be present.
And I don't want to just, you know, like disappear into the ether and never be seen again,
you know, also on a social aspect as well. So it's, you got to, you got to balance everything out.
But it's a tough job. Oh man, do I burn the candle. I think everyone does though. I think
it's actually normal when I find a lot of people this time of year burnt out. Yeah. And I think
partially, I'm not blaming COVID for it, but I'm saying because we were stuck, stuck for like a
better word in Sydney and we couldn't leave and no one's had a holiday. So you haven't had that,
okay, I'm working and now I've got the break and now I'm resetting. It feels like people have just
been working for three years straight with no break. Whereas a holiday sort of indicates, you
know, that's the end and then this is the beginning. And then there's something to look forward to. But
I think for a lot of people when you don't have something to look forward to and you don't have
an obvious end and an obvious beginning, it is really exhausting and people don't know when the
end is. So it's like running a marathon and not knowing where the end is. Like of course you're
going to burn out. Like, you know, you don't know how to pace your energy and then you've paced it
incorrectly. I often pace them. I've heard it so many bad places. It's like, and I noticed that
the other week as well, cause it was like the first time I had a panic attack, like in so long.
And I was talking to one of my friends as well about it. And it was just like, yeah, just the
feeling of, you know, keeping up with your own schedule as well as your own sort of complex life
and it was so much easier in lockdown. And cause you're so much easier. And now it's like, um,
you know, I look at my calendar, which is riddled with things. Um, and I just look and scratch my
head and go, Oh dear God. You just need to pull back and just compromise something. Yeah. Oh God.
Yeah. And, and, but I also do remember like going to see a friend or going to date night, you know,
you just really kind of go this night specifically, like I cannot book anything on these nights. And
that is, that is the time I set aside for myself and my partner all my life, you know, and not
onto a project, which sounds, you know, like, Oh God, are you breaking the working world? But it's
actually really beneficial. No, it's so beneficial. And it's so important. And I think in this
industry, it sounds like you're, is your partner in this industry too? Yes. Okay. Oh, that does
help then. But, um, I think, you know, but it, I mean, I guess you have different complexities,
right? Like the fact that your head is so buried deep in it constantly that you actually cannot
get out of it sometimes where I, the opposite, where I've got a partner, not in the industry.
And sometimes all I do is talk about it. And that's exhausting for him because that shouldn't,
that shouldn't determine our whole relationship. My career and my aspirations, but for you, you've
got the opposite where you're so in the industry that it feels like you're like, how do you separate
your industry from your partnership? Oh, and we do different complexity. We do. Thank Christ. We
have a lot of other interests, but, um, it's, it's also, we work in very different fields, like, um,
so, um, and works as a children's, um, uh, coordination program as well at the ABC.
And I work for channel seven and we both have worked on film sets. So we mostly be, um,
complain about like different experiences on film sets, which is great. Um, but then we also just
have a lot of interest in books and, and like psychology and, you know, and different, um,
different aspects of life. So I think it really balances out where we can talk to each other from
a very creative standpoint, but also, um, we do have different skill sets, which then sort of
are able to, you know, have a very life long and also kind of get to the point where it's like,
let's not talk about work. Let's talk about like something else. Cause that's really beneficial
in a relationship is healthy communication. Um, it's tough cause it's like, it's an obsession.
Oh God. Yeah. Like film really is a lifestyle. It's not a job or a hobby. Like it's literally
a lifestyle. So like, that's really tough. So good on you guys for setting boundaries. That's tough.
Oh yeah. It's, it's, we, we basically did it from the get go. We were like, this is, this is our
lives now. So we really, if we're going to make this work, we need to kind of set up these walls
so that we kind of like, do not talk about it at certain times. But I've also lived, I've lived
with people who worked in the industry and I did the same with them. It was like just straight up,
like, let's just make sure we're not always talking about work. Yeah. That's a good boundary. I mean,
like I'm trying to get better with it. And like sometimes when someone asks me about work, I'm
just like, you know what? Like I just don't want to talk about it. I'm like, I just feel like I'm so
talked out of it. And sometimes you just like, don't really want to revisit it. Just kind of
want to keep social, social, you know, you don't want to mix business, business with the fun times.
You don't want to mix like fruit with chocolate. Like I have a big pet peeve about that. I know
people say chocolate, strawberries are the thing, but I disagree. I feel like, you know, keep health
with health and you know, sugar with sugar. Like that's my sort of motto. Same comes with business.
Right. Business and social keep them different. Oh my God. I love that. That's the best motto ever.
Um, I'm going to use this as a perfect point to wrap myself. But just thinking about chocolate
strawberries now. Um, yeah, I am. But, um, Lexi, I do have a question for you. Where can people
stalk you on the internet? Where can they find you? Oh, um, my Instagram, which is at by dot
Lexi with three E's L E X E E. Um, otherwise my website, which is lexigordan.com or my IMDB page.
Stalk me there. Stalk you there. But thank you so much for coming on. It was an absolute pleasure.
Um, and if you want to go and check out more episodes of the things we do, uh, you can check
them out on Apple and Spotify and I'll be speaking to another guest next week and I'll speak to you
all later. Goodbye.