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This is the Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental

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health and all of those fun jazzy stuff.

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Today I've got my special guest and friend, Sarah Navin.

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Hello.

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Hi.

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Nice to see you.

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Nice to see you.

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You're so excited.

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I am so excited.

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Why are you excited?

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Let's see.

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The last time that I was interviewed or doing a conversational thing was all the way back

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in my like M.A.W. program.

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Oh, wow.

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This was a while ago.

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Baby you.

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And I'm a big yapper.

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You are a big yapper.

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And I'm a big reciprocal yapper.

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I love hearing other people yap.

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Which is so great because I feel like it's also like you're such an interesting characteristic

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because I have stalked your Instagram probably for do you know what?

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Quite a few years.

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Really?

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Which is really interesting.

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And I don't think I've decided to reach out.

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Probably about three years I want to say.

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And when you came into the prominence of like the dark into webs.

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But you know, like I remember following your Instagram handle.

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I don't even know how I found you.

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I think it was like to do with one of your like stories, which I found like really funny.

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It was to do with like people thinking you looked trans on the internet, which was always

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a laugh.

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That era.

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And that was probably about two, three years ago or something like that when that was sort

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of really big.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I was just like this person's funny.

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Like I'm just going to follow.

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And then I saw you were doing like artistic creative stuff.

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So I was like, cool.

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This is actually not just funny.

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Interesting.

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Like I feel like those are two different categories.

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But no, like I'm going to cause not everyone on the internet knows you.

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I'm sure there's like pockets of the deep web that don't know who you are, but I'm going

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to give you like, tell me a little bit about yourself.

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Give me a bio.

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Give me the, tell everyone a little bit about yourself and who you are and what you do.

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So I am, I think first and foremost, kind of a creepy content creator.

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I did a weird pivot.

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I studied for writing is my first love, just straight up fiction prose.

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But then when COVID hit, I was like kind of creeping my little hands around trying to

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find other things to engage in.

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And it ended up being web comics.

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I tried my hand at, and that was just when I got my like digital drawing tablet.

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And then that ended up being kind of the, the through way into the more public part

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of things.

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Cause I mean, like the, the fiction, the lit environment is very, it's active, it's thriving,

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but it just doesn't have the same visibility as literal visual art does.

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And so once I started doing that, it was so much easier to like engage with people and

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share and stuff.

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And so the coin swallow Instagram became kind of my hub for better or worse.

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My goal is in like five years to just shut it down.

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Like it's going to be gone.

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The moment that I can delete it, I'm going to like take myself out to dinner.

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But oh my God, can I just say, I want to be there.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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100%.

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It'll be like a full on wedding reception.

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It'll be amazing.

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Yeah.

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So I do stuff there.

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And so I know how to write like traditional prose, switch that over to web comics that

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got picked up.

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Actually a producer out in LA said this might make a cool audio project.

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And then, so I did a hard pivot bake it till you make it imposter syndrome into writing

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podcast scripts, adapting that story.

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Which is not.

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It's, it's such a weird, it was not something that I ever thought that I was going to move

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into.

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But it ended up, I mean, we've been working on it for, I mean, really scripting with,

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with echo verse, the production company.

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We've been doing that for like over two years now.

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Wow.

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And so huge learning experience, but that's sort of the mode that I'm in right now with

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my brain.

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That's where the story darker further down has sort of migrated.

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Yeah.

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And the medium shift has completely cracked my brain open into a different, different

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thing.

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Which is, which is great because I feel like you've kind of gotten the best pivot of career

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trajectory, which is not, not normal, particularly because you're going into like heavy audio

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world, which is completely different and very like horror sort of like podcasts and supernatural

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and like weird, weird stories like that.

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They don't really go into the podcast line.

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Like it's very niche.

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Like, and I think there, there's an audience there because you know, like there's you and

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me.

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And I think, um, it is not as well known.

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So it's sort of like really interesting that that pivot has existed because you say, Oh

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Hey, audio to writers.

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And they go, why would I do that?

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And it's really is an interesting medium because normally you'd think, Oh, I'm going to stick

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to a novel or I'm going to stick to pros like, or I'm going to stick to like TV or film,

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you know, they all, I think the best thing about the trajectory that you've taken is

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kind of just people go here's something, would you want to do it kind of like, you know,

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and what kind of like gravitates towards you.

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I mean, do you feel like it's strengthened you as a writer?

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Oh yeah.

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I mean, I think it's strengthened.

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If nothing else, the story got a lot out of it.

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Uh, I would be interested to see if I tried this kind of move again with something else

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that didn't have the same kind of themes and tone to it.

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I think it would set me back a little ways in the learning curve because I've been thinking

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of like, to me, this story is, it is audio now and it is, um, like audio drama and that's

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where my brain has sort of situated it.

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But then the next, like I've been working on a novel and then the next thing that's

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kind of nagging in my brain is a short story.

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And so I think that I would have to really prod myself to like get back into that head

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space.

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But I've, in terms of just literal stuff that I've learned, like final draft is the program

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that I'm using, which is it, I mean, just literally looking at the interface versus

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looking at a Microsoft Word document.

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I don't know.

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You could probably study like what it does spatially to the way that you're thinking

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about material and the way that you're pacing things.

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And that's like a $300 program that they threw at me for being there.

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So I'm just rolling, but it's, I mean, it's such a weird, I think, yeah, I think I have

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learned a lot from it.

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I'm hoping what you're hearing probably is the hesitation to say that I'll be able to

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transfer those skills anywhere else.

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But I like to think they're in me at this point.

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I think it's also like, you know, particularly something that you look at like back in the

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day writers, you know, especially when you had the typewriter kind of like mentality.

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And you know, that was the only way you could write.

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Like you had to do that and then you'd make copies and you know, so on and so forth.

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And it was all kind of like not fast.

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It was very slow and methodical.

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And I do think that like final draft, I love, you know, back when I was at uni, it was Celtics.

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They would give us like, which is a, if you ever know Celtics is cheap, it's a very cheap

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product.

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It's not as good as final draft.

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Whereas I feel like final draft really, it's come a long way considering its inception,

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even when its first model was just kind of like TV scripts.

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It's now got like a lot of functions that can like deviate on how you script things.

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But also the thing I think is it's really good at like logistically thinking of things.

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Like when you're writing something, you're like, okay, well, how logistically can I do

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this?

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Like how can I make this seem more interesting?

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And I think also like I'm a big AI fan now with chat to GPT, which I think that it's

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so weird, but it's so wonderful because I've, I've kind of like used it.

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If I'm stuck with a scene, I send it to that and I go, what is a good, like, this is the

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end point I want.

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How would I just lead into the next scene?

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And sometimes it just gives you a great out that you just need to cherry pick if you've

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got writer's block, which ends terrible as a writer.

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It's like, don't use it to write your stories.

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Like, please use your own originality.

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But I do think it has its benefit of going, well, I'm smart and I can help you write something

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that kind of gets you out of a nook.

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And then you can continue your story and then come back to this later where you go, oh,

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something because it does, like, I will say this, it writes dialogue terribly.

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It's not great with dialogue.

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But in terms of like narrative, like where your location needs to be or, you know, like,

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and then it just gives you a set of characters that, you know, like, man one or man two,

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and you're kind of like perfect.

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I now know that there's probably going to be like three other people in this scene.

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Cool.

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Like I can just now flesh that out or, but if you have a narrative structure there, it

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tends to also be smart enough to take what you've done and summarize it and use it, which

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is very incredible considering the ingenuity.

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But I do also think I can understand people's like hesitation towards it.

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I think that's my love for it is because I'm in IT and I've often like loved AI for a long,

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long time.

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I'm also scared of it.

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It's like one of those like terrifying like human brains that's going to one day overtake

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us.

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But, you know, like it is a fascinating like medium.

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And do you feel like, is it something you've sort of like learned about with Final Draft?

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Because that has a little bit of AI attached to it these days.

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Yeah.

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I mean, what I've found with things like ChatDBT, which just blew my mind so quickly, because

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I'm 27.

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And so I remember like I can do the dial up internet sound still, like I remember.

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Which makes us sound really old.

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Exactly.

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And so I thought that we were going to be basically like, okay, the digital age, that's

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going to be our big jump is like, there wasn't really internet and now there's internet.

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And now also the internet follows you around.

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Like that I thought was a big enough change.

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And now to see like what AI was doing six months ago versus what it's doing now is like

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ludicrous.

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And I've actually found it most helpful because I gave in immediately.

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I was like, I know there's some push to not even touch this, but it's so powerful that

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it's going to saturate everything.

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And I'm more comfortable figuring out my boundaries around it than trying to abstain from it in

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entirely, because it's going to, like any technological advancement, it's going to provide

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us a lot in terms of like the actual health of our communities and the knowledge that

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we have access to.

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And so my favorite thing about it, using it for, as I've been writing this novel, is like

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these very, very specific questions about actual logistical physical things.

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So I have, in this book, I have a jar that has a human hand in it that is suspended in

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an alcohol solution.

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The hand has been treated with formaldehyde and it's preserved like any wet specimen would

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be in this clear jar.

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And so I have a scene where I'm like, could this thing catch a sun ray in such a way that

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it magnifies through it and then catches papers next to it on fire?

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And I'm like that, I can get to the suspension of disbelief where I think most people would

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be like, sure, let her fucking do it.

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It's fine, it's cool.

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But specifically I was like, if somebody goes to stop this fire from happening, is the jar,

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my question was to chat GBT, which God bless it, it was a hard day for chat GBT.

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I was like, will the jar explode before it gets to the point where it sets things on

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fire or might it start a fire and then still be intact so that a character could grab it,

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get burned by the jar, toss it aside and then deal with the fire?

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What is the sequence of events that would happen?

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And so that's what I use chat GBT for is this, I guess I could go into the sciences of it

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and I could try to figure out burning point, boiling point, how, and I'm sure it would

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have to do with the thickness of the, like a mason jar or something like that, what kind

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of jar?

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And I was like, okay, chat GBT is going to be layman's information about these different

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pieces of, you know, science and physics and stuff like that chemistry.

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And so I got the scene out that way without having to like basically make myself an expert

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on the way that a wet specimen would explode.

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I mean, they tell you not to keep them in sunlight.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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But they do.

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They do.

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I mean, like from experience, they do.

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Oh yeah.

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Cause that's what I do on a regular basis.

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Just keep like cheap things in mason jars.

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Yes.

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00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:53,440
Oh yeah.

239
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:54,440
Just on a collection or a shelf.

240
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:55,440
Just don't let sun touch it.

241
00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,160
But yeah, like I definitely think that's the smartest way to break chat.

242
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,160
Yeah.

243
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,520
It was like, well, well, it loved giving me the disclaimers too.

244
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,480
I would describe something in this very dark book and it would give me some information

245
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,320
that it would go, please don't, please don't do that.

246
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,080
And I'm like, I'm not going to do it.

247
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,840
And so every next sentence I'm like, this is fiction.

248
00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,480
I promise chat, TBT.

249
00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:19,480
I promise.

250
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:20,480
It gets so worried.

251
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,080
It gets so worried.

252
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,080
And it's like, oh no.

253
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,560
It says, yes, but if you were to do this, you should, you should, you should not.

254
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:30,840
And you should get a professional to do it.

255
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,000
I'm like, okay.

256
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,840
It's like almost consulting for how to do a murder.

257
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:35,840
Like yeah.

258
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:36,840
Yeah.

259
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:37,840
And I'm sure someone's done it.

260
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:38,840
Yeah.

261
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:39,840
I am sure.

262
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,240
And then it's probably like, please call 911 or like some medical emergency please now.

263
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:44,240
100%.

264
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,160
But here is all the lists that I know of how to kill a person.

265
00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,160
Yeah.

266
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:49,160
It's really done methodically.

267
00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,520
You should train it with that.

268
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,800
Like, you know how you can make it like learn about your personal tastes and stuff.

269
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,800
You should be like, I am a completely blameless and altruistic person and you should never

270
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,160
blame me for anything.

271
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,600
So you should give me all the information that I need.

272
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,600
That's really clever.

273
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,160
We're sort of not endorsing bad behavior.

274
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:09,160
No.

275
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,880
But a little bit.

276
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,640
Like that's how you get through life.

277
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,640
Like just, you know, subtle murder.

278
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:16,640
Exactly.

279
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:17,640
Just a little, just some nuance.

280
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:18,640
Nuance murder.

281
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:19,640
Some nuance Thomas.

282
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:20,640
It's very normal.

283
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:27,920
I mean, you write a lot of weird, dark shit that like, have you always been like this?

284
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:28,920
Yeah.

285
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:29,920
I think I got primed for it.

286
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,880
I like to think that that like formed in me independently, but then I look back and like

287
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,760
my mom owns everything that Stephen King has ever written.

288
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:45,280
And my dad kind of, I think he resented very commercialized, like kids content.

289
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:51,040
And so usually if we were playing a game, he would take it into a weird, creepy direction

290
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,760
with like, there's some sort of greater danger or some sort of greater, you know, I was a

291
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,080
series of unfortunate events kid.

292
00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,080
Love.

293
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,320
Loved that.

294
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:01,520
Still very dear to my heart.

295
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:02,520
Yeah, it's great.

296
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,680
I mean, the TV, the TV series and the movie, both, both good adaptations.

297
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:08,680
Yeah.

298
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:09,680
Um, solid.

299
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,480
I don't know how I liked Neil Patrick Harris's prosthetics in the first season, but I will

300
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:14,480
forgive it.

301
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,600
Um, but the movie with Jim Carrey, great as well.

302
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:19,760
It's fun.

303
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:20,840
I remember when that came out.

304
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,200
I remember seeing the promos for it and I was still reading the series at that time

305
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,480
and I was so stoked.

306
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:26,480
Yeah.

307
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,960
I was, Oh God, that came in 2004.

308
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,440
So I was like 12 and I was very pumped for it.

309
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:37,600
Um, and I think I dragged the whole family to go and see it was very, it was very, very

310
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:38,600
big deal.

311
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,240
Um, but no, Stephen King massively close to my heart as well.

312
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:44,240
It's great.

313
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:51,600
Like I think out of all like horror writers, but also like, um, just like horror is a weird

314
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:52,600
genre.

315
00:15:52,600 --> 00:16:00,800
Like it's a weird, I think creepy, particularly like if you're going like in, um, like AFAB

316
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:07,800
people or, you know, in general, like, um, female identifying and, um, female born like people,

317
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:14,680
it is very uncommon for them to have spoken about loving horror until probably, I want

318
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:19,640
to say about 10 years ago, where it's like suddenly all the friends that I knew were

319
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:20,960
suddenly like, I love horror.

320
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,600
And I was like, because no one talked about it.

321
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,180
Like it was such a weird, weird thing.

322
00:16:27,180 --> 00:16:30,760
And it was like this big blokey thing to love horror and, you know, like, and it was sort

323
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,600
of like this masochist kind of like ideology.

324
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,640
And I think now it's just kind of like, um, you know, like watching slasher films or reading

325
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,240
horror books where it's like creepy or it's unsettling.

326
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,920
And I think like Japanese horror is like a massive like, um, uh, influence particularly

327
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:48,920
on me.

328
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:54,240
And, um, but I've loved watching original, like, you know, the, they were very B grade

329
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,240
films.

330
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,760
They were very B grade quality, but like the original ring and grudge and all that, like

331
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:05,120
just really, but, um, I think they've just released the spiral on, um, anime, which is

332
00:17:05,120 --> 00:17:06,120
Uzumaki.

333
00:17:06,120 --> 00:17:10,320
Um, I can never remember how to pronounce his name.

334
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:11,320
Jujito?

335
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:12,320
Yes.

336
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:14,320
I mean, I probably, I don't know.

337
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:19,120
I say it enough that I, you know, but it's so good looking like from the translation

338
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:22,200
from the comic to the animation.

339
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,040
It's just like, it's like chalk and cheese, like it's really just brought across so well.

340
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,600
Um, I said chalk and cheese.

341
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:30,600
I don't know why.

342
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:31,600
And cheese.

343
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:32,600
Yeah.

344
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:33,600
Haven't you heard that saying?

345
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:34,600
I've never heard that saying.

346
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,600
Yeah.

347
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,640
I think it means I could be completely wrong because my pros sometimes are terrible.

348
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:38,640
I love that.

349
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:44,200
I would rather you make sure that I like, this is the thing I've been, I've been called

350
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:49,400
out by my mother who's like, who was an English teacher back in the day and then an academic,

351
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,720
but she is like, your pros are like something to be questioned about.

352
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,560
But I'm like, I am a creative, so bullshit and fuck that.

353
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,640
Like I will make shit up to make it work.

354
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,600
The thing is I was totally on board with, I, I contextually 100% understood what you

355
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:03,600
were saying.

356
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:04,600
So I'm not sure it even matters.

357
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:05,600
I love it.

358
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,240
I'm very into, um, especially like personal idioms and stuff like that.

359
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,880
When I worked in the, the writing center at my college, I would, um, students would be

360
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,360
kind of nervous to come in and talk one-on-one cause your writing is a very personal thing.

361
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:25,760
And, um, and so sometimes if I was bored, I would see if I could get them to say things,

362
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,200
um, that weren't real.

363
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:34,120
So I would, you know, I'd be working with them and I would ask, um, so, you know, do

364
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:37,120
we have, uh, specific goals for this session?

365
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:38,720
Do you have things that you're particularly worried about?

366
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,760
Or are we just kind of chasing chickens here?

367
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,920
And some people would be, and God bless them.

368
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,320
They probably just came from an 8 a.m. class.

369
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,800
They would be like, I'm kind of just chasing chickens.

370
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:51,640
I'd be like, cool, that's in your, that's in your lexicon now.

371
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:52,640
Awesome.

372
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:53,640
I hope that sticks.

373
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,800
And you can use, you can use a lot of different things.

374
00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,640
I've been horrible about, um, abbreviating words lately, the sequences of my actions.

375
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:01,640
Oh God.

376
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:02,640
Yeah.

377
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:03,640
Why?

378
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:04,640
It's funny.

379
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:05,640
Take less syllable.

380
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:06,640
Yeah.

381
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:07,640
Oh, I mean, I love it.

382
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:14,640
Um, I mean, are you a big old classic literature fan?

383
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,400
Ooh.

384
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:17,600
I cherry pick.

385
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:24,040
I guess I'm not, um, I'm not beholden to particular eras, but like Wuthering Heights, big one

386
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,040
for me.

387
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,040
Um, Emily Bronte.

388
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,640
Uh, yep.

389
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:37,640
The, um, I guess, um, Greg Gatsby still that, that not quite like classic, classic early

390
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,240
classic, but like, you know, Fitzgerald era.

391
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,160
Um, and Mary Shelley.

392
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,000
Love Mary Shelley.

393
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:46,000
Yeah.

394
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,320
And it's so interesting as well.

395
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,680
We're like thinking about Frankenstein particularly.

396
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:50,680
Yeah.

397
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:56,000
Um, how badly that has been translated to film over the course of many years because

398
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,360
the book is so different.

399
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:00,240
It's so beautiful.

400
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,240
And Victor Frankenstein's an idiot.

401
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,240
Oh yeah.

402
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:03,240
A hundred percent.

403
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:04,240
So bad.

404
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:05,240
A hundred percent.

405
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:06,240
He's not even like a doctor.

406
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:07,240
He's a uni like dropout.

407
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,240
Yeah.

408
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:09,240
Like a basement.

409
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:10,240
Yeah.

410
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,240
And I love that.

411
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,240
That's like, everyone's like, no, he's a professional doctor.

412
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,240
I'm like, no, he knew nothing.

413
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:14,920
Like he fucked, he fucked in college.

414
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,360
He was terrible.

415
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:21,240
Um, but yeah, like I think what kind of like lasts the testament of a time.

416
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,560
So these like, um, old books and old classic literature.

417
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,800
And I mean like Dracula is one of my favorites, you know, um, particularly because if you

418
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,560
look at it through the lens of like Gothic romance, it is kind of like Gothic horror

419
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:34,560
romance.

420
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:39,340
It is just kind of like this, everything is beautiful until it's not.

421
00:20:39,340 --> 00:20:44,160
And then you realize how terrible it is, but there's a whole chapter like dedicated to

422
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,720
all the men fawning over an unconscious woman.

423
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:48,720
And it's just so creepy.

424
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:56,240
And I'm just like, I forget that that's like the thing of the era of like, just when men

425
00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,160
seem to write like really perverted characters.

426
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:01,700
But it seemed to be okay at the time.

427
00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:05,040
And then you look back on like in hindsight and you're like, this is, this is fucked.

428
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,600
Well, at the same time, outlandishly queer story.

429
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:08,600
Oh, a hundred percent.

430
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,320
Like, I mean, like all, all of these stories are very queer.

431
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,320
Like you, you.

432
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:14,320
Yeah.

433
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:15,320
Yeah.

434
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,320
Yeah.

435
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:22,440
I mean, like, you know, I, but you know, the, the thing that I often look about, and I think

436
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:28,280
this is like the thing, you know, discovering like sexuality as you get older, um, is something

437
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:34,520
that the stories do lead into like all my friends who like horror ended up being queer.

438
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,520
Yeah.

439
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:36,960
Like it's, it's kind of like your gateway.

440
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:37,960
Yeah.

441
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:38,960
Big overlap.

442
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:39,960
Yeah.

443
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:40,960
But it's like so many stories.

444
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,080
I do think like, you know, people talk about heartstopper and all that, like comics being

445
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,000
like my queer awakening.

446
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,360
Mine was definitely just, you know, particularly with identification always rooting for the

447
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:53,360
female protagonist.

448
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:54,360
Yeah.

449
00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:57,200
And that was it was like growing up watching Alien.

450
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,040
Um, like one of my favorite stories when I was a kid was like Coraline, you know, like

451
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,400
things like that where it's just creepy, unsettling.

452
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:04,960
And I wanted to be that character.

453
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,320
And I didn't, you know, there wasn't like, I just want to be with them.

454
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,880
There was, I wanted to be there.

455
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:09,880
Yeah.

456
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,200
And it was like very different, like awakening versus like some people were like, oh, you

457
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:19,320
know, like, I think everyone looks at Sigourney Weaver's career and goes, oh, it's Alien.

458
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:20,840
But I'm like, she's amazing.

459
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:21,840
I want to be her.

460
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,120
Like I would love that career.

461
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:24,120
That is amazing.

462
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:25,120
Exactly.

463
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:30,560
Um, but you know, I do think, was that kind of like your own journey of when, like how

464
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,520
you discovered your identity and like sexuality and everything?

465
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:39,140
Like I think there's a really interesting, um, framework for femininity within horror.

466
00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:44,120
And I think we're definitely in like a golden era of sort of the, um, the feminine macabre

467
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:47,280
and like feminine rage being in things.

468
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:53,120
We've had this weird, I think it was interesting that you mentioned the, the slow assimilation

469
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,160
of women into the horror scene because with things like Mary Shelley, you know, that wasn't

470
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,600
considered, I mean, it's, it's science fiction, but it's like a scary story, you know, and

471
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:02,720
she really spearheaded that.

472
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,560
Like that was the first proper science fiction novel.

473
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:10,080
And yet it was like, we were sort of within and without for a really long time.

474
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:18,400
And with the like slasher era and that sort of, um, the bimbo goes first sort of like,

475
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,400
that was the, um, the structure that we were used to.

476
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,000
And you would hope that there would be a final girl that you could sort of project onto.

477
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,740
But a lot of the time you had to sit there through so much violence against women in

478
00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:37,200
a weird way that it wasn't directed at the men sort of, um, that it was just like a lot

479
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,840
of the mainstream stuff was intolerable.

480
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:45,240
And so then whenever you get to these sort of, um, like more creature feature things,

481
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:52,360
more surreal, um, the, uh, Jew on the grudge was another one that really struck me.

482
00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:57,880
Both the grudge and the ring are less about, um, let's kind of abuse these vapid women

483
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,920
on screen and we feel kind of bad that they're getting stabbed, but also like they were annoying

484
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,120
and they were shallow.

485
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:05,360
And so we don't really care.

486
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:07,320
Like the camp zero killer stuff.

487
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,440
Um, whereas I think East Asian horror started a little bit ahead of us in terms of the like,

488
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:18,200
no, you're, you're girl ghost or your girl, um, antagonist is sort of the representative

489
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,540
of femininity and it's this very tortured, very vengeful femininity.

490
00:24:22,540 --> 00:24:30,080
And so, um, it's, it fascinates me that so many of our ghosts, uh, both in like, like

491
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:38,880
Western culture, um, and like East Asian horror are these creepy young women that something

492
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,480
horrible has been done to them.

493
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,960
And so there's that almost cathartic space for like, you can kill us, but you can't really

494
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:47,960
kill us.

495
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,120
Like that sort of thing.

496
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:55,080
And then there's, um, like ginger snaps, these, you know, these creatures that it's like,

497
00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:00,080
okay, here's this vision of a girl, um, going through what a lot of us go through and then

498
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:05,320
morphing into this unstoppable rain of terror and bloodshed.

499
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,760
Um, and I think that's a space for it too.

500
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,240
So I think that the jokes on like Twitter and Tumblr and Instagram where girls are like,

501
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:13,960
I'm not a girl, I'm a creature.

502
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,000
Like I'm, I'm a, I'm some sort of fucked up little demon thing.

503
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:23,720
I'm actually, I'm actually some sort of, um, you know, abhorrent abomination against God

504
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,080
in reality.

505
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,200
It's like, God bless them.

506
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,560
They're probably, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure a number of them are, but I think that's just,

507
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:37,720
um, a hyperbolic way to negotiate the difference between what a human actually is versus what

508
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,640
women have been painted to be.

509
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:41,640
Yeah.

510
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:47,000
And so that definitely like, when I was in kindergarten, I wanted to be a werewolf.

511
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,840
And so like, I didn't, I mean, I had some of the parts of like a sort of princess damsel

512
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,960
fantasy, but oftentimes that's what I wanted to be was something that was kind of creepy

513
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:57,960
and fucked up.

514
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,400
Um, because I felt easier.

515
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:05,280
It feels like it's, it would be easier to kind of get really sharp and scary than it

516
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:10,880
would be to get as soft as culturally we are asked to be, at least without becoming so

517
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,960
vulnerable that it's like a hundred percent chance that something shitty is going to happen

518
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,880
to you, you know?

519
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:24,720
And so I think that horror gives us a lot of like, it indirectly created a lot of spaces

520
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:33,360
for, um, people outside of the like constructed gender binary and the constructed, um, like

521
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:39,080
patriarchal expectations for people who aren't just like cis straight men to sort of conceptualize

522
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:44,120
ourselves and be like, if I'm already going to be cast as something kind of bizarre-o,

523
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,640
why not make it really cool?

524
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:47,640
Like powerful.

525
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:48,640
Yeah.

526
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:49,640
Yeah.

527
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:58,200
I also think that like the, the notion of, of how we identify and how we sort of see

528
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,560
has changed quite significantly and for the better, like Jesus, like I'm not going to

529
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:09,040
say it's like we're taking, you know, and I do think it's interesting because I, I

530
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,320
remember like, I have a very macabre sense of humor, like I love gallows humor, everything

531
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,960
like that, which like, if you're going to laugh about something, it's, it's got to

532
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:17,960
be about death.

533
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:24,040
Like, and, and particularly one thing I noticed this year, um, so a few months ago, my, my

534
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,160
father passed away and we were at, we were at his funeral.

535
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,840
I remember like, it was one of those things where I was like kind of almost just, you

536
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,480
know, like in this weird sort of macabre state where you're like dealing with grief and you're

537
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,600
like, okay, well it's been about a week, uh, since he died, you know?

538
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,320
I've got to kind of like get through that.

539
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,560
And then suddenly you're going to go and start laughing about death and you just go, isn't

540
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,520
it, isn't it like really funny?

541
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,720
Like, you know, death being a thing and also like, what would you rather, because when

542
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:58,440
you've seen death and when you've seen like the macabre, um, I have always been fascinated.

543
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,480
Like my dad and I had a shared passion of like loving knowing what happens to you after

544
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:03,480
you die.

545
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:04,480
I love that.

546
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,720
And I particularly remember to the atrocity of my mom, we were both watching like a mortician

547
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:14,280
video one night, um, and just being like, Oh, you know, what happens to the body after

548
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,280
the, after they die?

549
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,220
And I remember I looked it up.

550
00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:22,920
So after dad died, I remember I was like, um, they had requested if you want after he

551
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:23,920
was an organ donor.

552
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,200
So like they rushed my way to surgery and then, um, they're like, you can see the body

553
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,200
if you want to.

554
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:30,880
And like, I was morbidly curious.

555
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,440
I was like, what does a dead person look like?

556
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,520
Like, and realistic answer is they look yellow and waxy.

557
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,700
And it's just like, it's, you don't really get a sense that someone's there.

558
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:43,680
You just kind of get a sense of like the body.

559
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:44,680
That's it.

560
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,880
Like you're like that person that I know is gone.

561
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,840
Um, but it was very fascinating.

562
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,720
And I was sort of like, I was like, wow, we really do look quite different.

563
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,560
And one of the things I scientifically remember was the, um, that when the bacteria that lives

564
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:03,320
in our stomach, um, that create bile and all that, um, when they decide that the host is

565
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,840
dead, they go, we're going to spread out.

566
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:06,840
Yeah.

567
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,560
Which is why we go yellow and waxy.

568
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,920
And that is because it, um, the blood stops.

569
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,680
And so it just goes through all the veins and does its magic.

570
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,720
Um, and then you eventually start to break down.

571
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:23,000
But I remember particularly one thing that no one really thinks about when we die is

572
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,080
because our body is working so hard to keep us alive.

573
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,440
And then once we do die, you kind of go this sort of like almost skeletal kind of like

574
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,280
thin, you kind of just like lose weight and you know, you look quite gaunt.

575
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,520
And that was one of the things that I remember, particularly I had a photo of dad like 10

576
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:40,840
days prior to him dying.

577
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,880
And then I remember like, um, my mom was like, Oh, you can get another photo of him.

578
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,520
And I was like, no, I don't kind of want to remember him looking quite like a corpse,

579
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,720
but, um, but I do think there was sort of like an element to me where I was like, this

580
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:54,720
is fascinating.

581
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,680
This is what happens to literally everyone.

582
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,760
Whereas like you don't, you don't look like yourself.

583
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:07,120
And I remember I was sitting down, um, sitting down with my, um, my partner, Emily, and I

584
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,040
was like, do you want to see a photo of like, you know, cause they, um, did a photo of him

585
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,040
in his casket.

586
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,920
And I said, do you want to see?

587
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,420
And she was like, look, yes, I'm, you know, I'm more than curious as well.

588
00:30:19,420 --> 00:30:22,680
And she had a look and she was like, God, it really doesn't look like him.

589
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:28,200
Like it really doesn't look like it, you can kind of see him, but it's not him.

590
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,080
And it sort of like that realizations.

591
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,040
Oh, that's weird.

592
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:37,400
Like isn't that like, um, macabre, but it is fascinating because I think that always

593
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,240
really stuck with me and it's sort of like, I remember we went to go and see Beetlejuice,

594
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:47,760
Beetlejuice, like not that long after, which, um, you know, just is ludicrously silly.

595
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,960
Uh, and I want to like, I love the original so much.

596
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:58,480
It's like a childhood, like fantasy fun for me because, um, Winona Ryder and Gina Davis

597
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:04,560
is basically like the two loves that I grew up with, but it was, I will give Michael Keaton

598
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,840
just is great in the role of, um, Beetlejuice.

599
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,000
And I particularly remember that that film is just such a great way to look at death

600
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,320
where it's just like, Oh, we're, we're all fucked.

601
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,340
We're all like, this is where we're all heading.

602
00:31:18,340 --> 00:31:20,280
And that's kind of like great.

603
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:25,840
Like, and I love the fact that we, we, you know, and I think about this from a regular

604
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:32,480
point of why I love horror is, um, is it's like, whether you're, you know, spiritual,

605
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,840
religious or anything, it's kind of like, it's all rooted in this just unknown.

606
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:42,000
It's rooted in so much of like what we don't understand in a human psyche and how we view

607
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,320
like, you know, like, um, you know, the, as we were talking about monsters, you know,

608
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,600
it's like the human psyche of like the id almost the psychological id of like, what

609
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,760
drives us, what are our animal instincts?

610
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,960
And you know, cause originally, you know, we are animals and we've all got like drives.

611
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,040
So what drives us to do certain actions?

612
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,560
The only realization is we've put rules around us.

613
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,560
Whereas like the rest of the animal kingdom hasn't because they don't have the way or

614
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:15,200
means they've got their own sort of like sets, but they're like, they follow their own tribes.

615
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,240
It's so interesting that is like worldwide we've decided to be like 8 billion people.

616
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,640
Let's let's set these different rules, but per country and per state.

617
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,000
And that's the weird thing.

618
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,640
So how, you know, I think when you come to a psychological element, um, it's, it's just

619
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,440
really like fascinating.

620
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:40,560
Um, but I do think that like going back to what you were saying about like monsters and

621
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,840
you know, um, things that reminisced, you know, the damsel versus I love that because

622
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:51,800
it's like, I feel like that's the thing that, you know, when frozen came out particularly

623
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,560
and ever, you know, everyone wanted to be the Disney princess.

624
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,480
I was like, that was based on a book that was quite dark and usually, yep.

625
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:00,920
And creepy.

626
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,480
And it's so funny that Disney kind of like sweeped in and like, we're gonna be happy

627
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:06,480
in line.

628
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,480
But I love Grimm's fairy tales where it's like, you know, you've just got this not great

629
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,480
thing.

630
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:13,760
Like it's pretty awful.

631
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:21,600
Like, you know, it's either a deal with death or disappointment or, um, like loneliness.

632
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:27,760
Like, is that kind of like, what was the big thing when you were sort of like, you know,

633
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:33,560
growing up that really gravitated you towards, you know, other than the werewolf moment?

634
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:39,400
Well, I think that, um, that, that point about like, uh, cultural discrepancies with the

635
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,720
way that we deal with death.

636
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:46,560
Um, I didn't know early on that there were so many other ways to cope with the presence

637
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,920
of death than being just terrified of a corpse and being completely devastated by the death

638
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,560
of somebody that you care about.

639
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,440
And then being terrified of the inevitable death that you are marching towards at all

640
00:33:58,440 --> 00:33:59,440
times.

641
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:05,040
So I think like that felt like that is really the only, um, that's the only way to view

642
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,040
it.

643
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:07,520
That's the only natural way to view it.

644
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,880
And then I, I guess because of that, it always felt like something that was lurking a little

645
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:13,880
bit further back.

646
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,520
I had a lot of anxiety about parent death, about separation whenever I was a Liddler.

647
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,760
And so it's something that I think is one of those, like, if you have a bruise, you

648
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,960
sort of feel like poking it every now and then just to check, see how much it hurts.

649
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:36,240
And so it's, it's such a, like, such a taboo, such a, um, such a weird powder keg of emotions

650
00:34:36,240 --> 00:34:42,280
for people, like that response of laughter and sort of like absurdity versus people who

651
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:47,400
go into like full denial and they don't, um, their minds literally, they can't comprehend

652
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,080
what's going on for the first 72 hours or something like that.

653
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,660
Like it's, it's so frightening and how, um, much of a dice roll it is for a lot of people.

654
00:34:56,660 --> 00:35:01,120
But then I started getting more into like Caitlin Doty, the, um, person who does Ask

655
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,960
a Mortician, which is a great, yeah, it's a, it's a great YouTube series and, uh, she's

656
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,640
written to my knowledge, I think like three books.

657
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:16,120
And one of them that I read, uh, was, um, Smoke Gets in Your Eyes, which is her experiences,

658
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,960
uh, being a mortician and working with bodies and things like that.

659
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:25,400
And then there's another one that I think the, the subtype was like in search of the

660
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:26,400
good death.

661
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,600
I don't know what the main title was, but she was going to these different countries

662
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,400
and observing the way that they handle their dead and the way that they relate to that.

663
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,040
Um, and it was through that and through her research and her insight that I realized that

664
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,880
like even in America, we didn't start really hiding from our dead until about the civil

665
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:52,900
war when it was like the people who are being returned to the home are like beyond recognition

666
00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:54,800
and it's very scary.

667
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:02,400
And, um, the specter of death is so unnaturally present because of war that it's like, we,

668
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:07,520
we took to these, um, sort of, I mean, there was like the Victorian era of sort of memorializing

669
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:13,320
your dead in that sense, but we did this slow crawl into just, I don't want to see it.

670
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,400
I don't want to touch it, you know?

671
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:21,400
But the thing is that most morticians, most, um, like funeral homes will allow you to participate

672
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,920
in a lot of the process.

673
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:30,720
And so, um, you know, there's places that, uh, you can have a cremation and then the

674
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:35,320
like incinerated remains can be put out onto a tray and there's a ritual of removing the

675
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,640
bones with chopsticks that families will do.

676
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,840
And that's part of the like dealing with the reality of the person being gone and sort

677
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,240
of caring for it.

678
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:50,820
Um, vigils are still, um, like a very big thing in certain cultural pockets.

679
00:36:50,820 --> 00:36:57,560
Just like mainstream sort of middle-class America does that so rarely because it seems

680
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:05,120
so freaky, but it's like to have a last ritual of, of care and of attentiveness, I think

681
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,200
is really important for a lot of people.

682
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,600
And so you talking about your dad and thinking about the things that you guys used to share

683
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,400
together and your shared interests, especially when other people were like, why are you talking

684
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:16,400
about that?

685
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,920
That's so tender to be able to like bring that specifically back into the way that you

686
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,760
conceptualize that loss because then you're doing exactly what your loved one would want

687
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,160
you to do, which is like, don't stop having the conversation.

688
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,440
Don't stop thinking this is kind of funny and weird and interesting to chew on.

689
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:39,680
Like that feels so like appropriate to honoring somebody, you know?

690
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:45,680
And um, so that's another reason why I think hospice really intrigues me as well and how

691
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,360
we deal with people who are moving into the dying process.

692
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:54,760
And I mean, horrible conditions, especially in America for people who are like having

693
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,680
end of life care and things like that.

694
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:01,200
There's a lot of people who should be on hospice and they're not, there's a lot of abuse in

695
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:02,840
nursing homes and things like that.

696
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,140
And part of that is because we're not comfortable having people dying in the home a lot.

697
00:38:06,140 --> 00:38:11,480
And that's been very stigmatized for like for profit reasons for sure.

698
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:17,800
But learning that like the body knows how to form in the womb, like literally your cells

699
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,800
and everything, they know how to start life.

700
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,200
And as a baby, like we are whack ass animals.

701
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,320
Like we do not, we do not fight, our heads are too big.

702
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:33,600
The, you know, the pelvis isn't where it should be, but like at the same time, the body knows

703
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,360
how to start to be alive.

704
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,120
And then in the same vein, it knows how to die.

705
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:45,240
And so there's hospice nurse Penny is somebody that I follow on Instagram, who she does a

706
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:50,760
lot of like very frank talk about this sort of stuff and how to care for your dying person.

707
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,760
And one of the things that's really hard for families to conceptualize is like at a certain

708
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,760
point you stop having water because your body doesn't need it.

709
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,680
Your body knows that it's preparing to die.

710
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:05,200
And so part of that sort of emaciation process isn't because the body has stopped knowing

711
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,920
what to do, but it's, it's moving things.

712
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,760
But yeah, it's condensing things for you.

713
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,920
And it's, you stop having needs as much.

714
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,600
And so like for comfort, you can do like a sponge, wet sponge on the tongue and the mouth

715
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:17,680
and stuff like that.

716
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,240
But people will still be so desperately trying to feed and bring water to their loved ones.

717
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:26,600
And it's like, this is part of a process, you know?

718
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:32,440
And my thing too is like, let people, if Pop Pop wants to have his beer and his disgusting

719
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,320
cigar, let Pop Pop have it.

720
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:37,960
I'm like, can we please?

721
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:38,960
I know.

722
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,720
I think it's, I think particularly, you know, something that I was discussing with my mother,

723
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:50,080
particularly my dad and her were in the States between April and May and then they were back

724
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,080
in Australia.

725
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,200
And the Australian healthcare is insane.

726
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,600
We have like free healthcare, you know, and private healthcare.

727
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:58,840
Yeah, I know.

728
00:39:58,840 --> 00:39:59,840
Just catch on America.

729
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:00,840
Yeah.

730
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,840
Please God, before it's too late.

731
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:03,840
Yeah.

732
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,360
It's like, mom was saying she would have, you know, gone bust if she, if anything had

733
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,360
happened to him here.

734
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,200
I was in Australia, she paid 500 Australian dollars all up.

735
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,880
He had like thousands, thousands of dollars worth of hospital care and all I had to pay

736
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:19,880
$500 out of pocket.

737
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,560
And it was nothing.

738
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,960
And I really think that it was really interesting because I remember talking to the nurses,

739
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,760
there was, he had pulmonary fibrosis, which if people don't know, it's like a very common

740
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,640
condition more so than people think and it's to do with scarring in the lung tissue.

741
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,480
And over time you will develop clots and you will have difficulty breathing and then eventually

742
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,960
your lungs will just give up.

743
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:43,960
It's no cure.

744
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,520
There's like, once you get it, you're basically, it's a death sentence.

745
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:52,400
So I remember particularly they sort of originally when I was getting messages in Toronto, I

746
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,000
was like, they were like, oh, he's probably going to stay like when they take him off

747
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,020
oxygen, he's probably going to have like a couple hours and then he'll eventually die.

748
00:41:01,020 --> 00:41:04,080
And when I got there, I remember asking the nurse, I was like, how long do you actually

749
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:05,900
reckon it will be?

750
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:09,320
And the guy was like about 30 minutes, I reckon.

751
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:10,320
It was 15.

752
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:11,320
Oh, wow.

753
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,960
And it was the quickest way.

754
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,360
And it was, I was very grateful because I remember being there and being like, oh, this

755
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:17,760
is actually really quick.

756
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:23,240
But I remember like how, how, and I'm the best to deal with death out of my entire family.

757
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:25,320
My brother is hopeless.

758
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,480
I love you, Simon, but you are.

759
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,640
I think particularly it's just, I know kind of like how to prepare mentally for it because

760
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,640
it is, it is unpleasant.

761
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,560
But I remember like the great thing was dad was sedated.

762
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,840
He was not conscious at all during this process.

763
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:46,720
So I remember I said all I needed to say, um, that were kind of like, I sat with him.

764
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:48,520
I remember I was telling him stuff.

765
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,840
Um, you know, and the doctors are like, you know, there's a psychology element where you

766
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,840
can hear auditorily when you're in a coma.

767
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,760
Um, and I like to think he was like having dinner with the family and that was kind of

768
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,120
like what he was imagining.

769
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:06,360
Um, but yeah, it's so, so surreal because I think like all these nurses who were super

770
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,240
duper lovely, they were just like, yeah, you, the amount of families that you see who just

771
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:14,920
don't know, like, you know, they run away the first time someone gets sick and to see

772
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:21,000
someone, you know, someone had their entire family around them, um, just want to say goodbye

773
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,120
to him is just so nice and refreshing.

774
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,560
And I think particularly like, I remember like mum, this was such a nice thing after

775
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,600
he died, but I remember mum was like, I'll go through his tablet and you know, see all

776
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,920
these things that, um, my, you know, like be good for the funeral.

777
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,720
I remember going through and he had screenshots, had screenshots of things that I had done

778
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:42,240
and Emily had done.

779
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:47,400
Um, but particularly I didn't realise that my dad was going deep into Instagram to look

780
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,480
up trans rights and identity rights and everything like that.

781
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:53,480
And I was like,

782
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,640
I know I was like, I was a little bit like, what?

783
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:03,080
So it was a really kind of like really nice thing for me.

784
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:09,680
Uh, because while he probably never fully understood it, um, he was always trying to,

785
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:15,040
and I think that was really what was more important because, um, I feel like he was

786
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,560
taking this big sort of like, I need to understand my child and I need to understand like what's

787
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:20,560
going on.

788
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,520
You know, and, um, I think it was also particularly when I got my ears pierced and everything,

789
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,680
um, that my dad was like, okay, cool.

790
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,680
I need to like get ahead of this.

791
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,040
Like I need to like, just do the research.

792
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,040
It's real now.

793
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:34,040
Yeah, it's real.

794
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:39,280
I think it was like less staring, like oblivious, um, obviously often to space and be like,

795
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:46,800
um, but I do remember like, you know, I came out when I was 26, um, as like, um, you know,

796
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:55,000
transsexual and then I was, uh, 29 when I came out as living the dream.

797
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,000
But I came out as non-binary when I was 29.

798
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:02,840
And I think it was like, because for me, um, and I remember like one of my great friends

799
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:03,840
is trans.

800
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,020
She was, she was like, yeah, you're part of the community.

801
00:44:06,020 --> 00:44:09,260
And for a long time, I thought it was like, oh, you know, like non-binary sort of sits

802
00:44:09,260 --> 00:44:10,260
on the outside a little bit.

803
00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:12,900
And it's like, no, it's actually just part of the trans community.

804
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:15,860
And I never really knew that until like talking to her.

805
00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:20,080
And she was like, no, it's like a whole, like people just don't talk about it.

806
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,440
Which she was like, it's terrible because like, we just kind of alienate everyone, but

807
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:29,440
it's the same of like, you know, anyone just being like, it's like people, you know, it's

808
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,240
like, well, if you're going to be pansexual, you may as well say you're bisexual because

809
00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:33,240
it's easier.

810
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:35,200
And it's like, well, that's what people literally think.

811
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:40,720
And it's like, well, no, no, I definitely identify as being pansexual, but that's like,

812
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:43,840
you know, it's amazing how many people just go, oh, the label is easier because people

813
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,840
just commonly understand it.

814
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:54,080
But it's so interesting because I think we sort of like stepped in this great situation

815
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,560
of like accepting it.

816
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,960
I do think though in Australia, there's a lot of homophobia.

817
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,840
There's a lot of like bigotry.

818
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,720
Australia is not perfect.

819
00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:08,060
But I think I've been quite lucky in finding so many friends.

820
00:45:08,060 --> 00:45:10,680
Like did you find that when you met your partner?

821
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:16,160
Was, you know, like with your whole like sexuality, did you automatically know you were pan or

822
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,280
was it very much like I find it?

823
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,760
So I went to school in South Carolina for a really long time.

824
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:23,760
Okay.

825
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:24,760
In the Bible Bouts.

826
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,280
Yeah, I was about to say, I was about to say that's fun.

827
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:36,840
I managed to skirt a lot of the more like really, really violent venomous rhetoric and

828
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,760
stuff like that, that was directed at more of the like effeminate guys, that sort of

829
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:48,480
thing that I knew some like bisexual emo kids in my middle school that were sort of that

830
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:49,480
was part of the scene.

831
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,600
And it was almost like it came with the it was couched in the culture in such a way that

832
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:58,840
it felt a little bit more appropriate than if it was one of just the guys on the football

833
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:00,320
team or something like that.

834
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,200
So there was still that word separation.

835
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:07,600
And then I went to a high school that my graduating class was like probably like 25 people or

836
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:08,600
something like that.

837
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:09,600
It was very small.

838
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,800
It was a dual enrollment high school.

839
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:17,120
And I didn't know anybody who was out and queer.

840
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:22,240
After the fact, I found out that like two of the guys that I originally gravitated to

841
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:28,560
as friends were they they turned out to be very gay, very queer, very, you know, out.

842
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:35,920
But I think for a little while there, I was probably the only one that was saying, you

843
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,440
know, I'm pan, I'm not straight.

844
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:44,240
And that came from a completely hypothetical standpoint when I started hearing about the

845
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:48,360
queer people out in the ether, where it's places that are not here.

846
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,920
And I was dating a boy at the time his name was Graham.

847
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:57,440
And I was asked at some point, like if Graham was a girl, would you still date Graham?

848
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:04,200
And it was just like, duh, like, yeah, it's like features that I find appealing.

849
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:10,640
And then I saw Foxfire Confessions of a Girl Gang in which, oh my god, diabolically underrated

850
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:18,080
movie Butch Angelina Jolie in the 90s, leading a vigilante girl gang.

851
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,840
Yeah, I've never heard of it.

852
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,520
It's insane that people haven't heard of this.

853
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:29,280
And so I know that she's walking around in her like combat boots and she's got her pixie

854
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,360
cut and she's it's all desperately queer coded.

855
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,140
And I was like, oh, oh, oh.

856
00:47:37,140 --> 00:47:41,920
And so I just sort of I had to just swallow that pill really, really quickly.

857
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,400
And then I became for a little while there, I was sort of like, like token queer girl

858
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,720
in that, you know, it would be the straight girls that would be like saying to their boyfriends,

859
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:52,460
like, careful, or I'm gonna leave you for Sarah, that sort of thing.

860
00:47:52,460 --> 00:47:54,720
And it's sort of like, you get a little kick out of it.

861
00:47:54,720 --> 00:47:59,880
But it also made like actually being with somebody who wasn't just like a straight guy

862
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:06,680
seem like this kind of absurd, like, yeah, maybe in another world, that sort of thing.

863
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:12,960
And so it was really funny, because when I met Cass, I had straight up no clue what was

864
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:13,960
going on.

865
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:20,000
And that's exactly what Cass wants out of life is Cass just sometimes people will look

866
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,880
at him and they'll go, Okay, have a good day, ma'am, sir.

867
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:24,880
Sorry.

868
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:32,760
And then he'll just be like, yeah, because it's just that weird, like in the, the uncertainty

869
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:37,880
and the destabilization of other people's expectations, I think that he really loves.

870
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:45,840
And so whenever I first met him, I was and now he just uses he they, and for a while

871
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,200
there, I was just using they because I straight up had no clue what was happening.

872
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,320
I just knew that he was gorgeous.

873
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,840
And that he was the only person on campus who looked as miserable as I was whenever

874
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,600
I first saw him.

875
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:04,120
And like big, huge hoodie, like arm band bracelets, like up the up the forearms, like gladiator

876
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,080
cuffs and everything.

877
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:16,640
And so we I think, both had concepts of queerness and of like gender nonconformity and things

878
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:17,640
like that.

879
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,080
And I think we were just such, we had had to focus on surviving high school and getting

880
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,560
into college so hard that we didn't even have the wherewithal.

881
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:31,740
And then when we met and hung out and started dating, it all just happened very like organically.

882
00:49:31,740 --> 00:49:39,000
And so I think probably a lot of my thoughts and a lot of my values on the topic have been

883
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:40,560
filtered through CAS.

884
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:46,660
And then it's been sort of this loop of like, we don't have to go through the cultural perception

885
00:49:46,660 --> 00:49:52,920
of queerness because we got so close to each other so fast that it we were able to sort

886
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,880
of like stabilize each other in that way.

887
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:02,440
And so now, I think we have our own kind of iteration of stuff that's going on that helps

888
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,080
us not fall into some of like the cultural waves that happen back and forth and like

889
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:12,400
the queer community and the weird like semantic back and forth stuff about like, are you pan?

890
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:13,400
Are you bi?

891
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,240
Are you straights at pride?

892
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:17,100
You know, like that sort of thing.

893
00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:22,520
It's just I think being being so like enmeshed in each other and so in love with each other,

894
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:27,200
we've gotten to like pocket away from that and just have like the queerness that we think

895
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,880
is cool and that we think is personal to us and then just take everybody else's sort of

896
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,160
a face value as it comes without that really rigid conformity.

897
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,560
Yeah, which I love.

898
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,560
I think it's like the shift away.

899
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,280
I mean, like it's very similar to how am and I sort of deal with things.

900
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:49,240
I think particularly when we were in Australia for like the last month, so many people mispronounced

901
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:53,000
me and I was like, I was like, just kind of got to the point.

902
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:59,560
I was like, okay, well, my brains kind of lied a little bit, but it was so funny because

903
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,560
I think the moment we got back to Toronto, it felt like we were like, oh, okay, we can

904
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:13,240
switch back to how we were like, you know, and I think it's because we're very like,

905
00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:19,200
we went to a wedding for a friend and and was saying to me, she's like, I'm so queer,

906
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,960
like, you know, I'm married to someone who's queer.

907
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:28,480
I think that's, you know, the thing of just going to a very straight wedding is like,

908
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,200
just just like I don't compute, like I love my friend, absolutely want to support her.

909
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:40,600
But in terms of just like, people not, you know, understanding you is what drives me

910
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:41,600
to the nth grade.

911
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:47,560
And it's really, it's like so sweet because she's like my biggest advocate.

912
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,920
So she's sort of like fights to the nth degree to make sure I'm seen.

913
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:57,560
And I do think that that makes me feel really lucky.

914
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:03,280
And I think, you know, like the concept for people where it's like, they go, oh, but you

915
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:08,880
know, like, you know, because I can pass for sis, which has gotten me out of like a lot

916
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:14,920
of like problematic situations, which is sometimes great, depending where you go.

917
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:21,400
And I also like, I particularly think it has helped because a lot of the situations that

918
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:26,680
I deal with, not so much in the arts, but when I deal with like people on Facebook,

919
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,920
especially in work, I had to deal with a lot of backwards thinking people where it's like,

920
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,000
they just knew black and white.

921
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:33,760
They didn't know any better.

922
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:38,960
Like I've sat down, I've worked with people who like thought that, you know, people's

923
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:44,180
free will was dumb, you know, like, you know, like we should all, yeah, I know, I know.

924
00:52:44,180 --> 00:52:50,960
But I also I've worked with people, you know, like, think, think that, you know, like US

925
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:51,960
politics is fantastic.

926
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:58,200
And, you know, the way it was heading during Trump's initial era was the best thing.

927
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:05,420
You know, but I mean, and it's really interesting because I do think like, Australian little

928
00:53:05,420 --> 00:53:08,000
fun fact, Australians voting system is compulsory.

929
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,480
You have to legally vote or you get fined.

930
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:11,480
I didn't know that.

931
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:12,480
Yeah, do it America.

932
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:13,480
Make that legal.

933
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:20,800
Yeah, make it like a grand if you don't pay because amazingly people will do it.

934
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,480
But also don't make it like make the elections easy.

935
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,680
Like make it just like, God, you have a complicated system.

936
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:28,960
It's so dumb.

937
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:33,880
But you know, like, I think particularly being so prevalent to almost being like in Canada

938
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,000
where, you know, it's so interesting, people will say this to me.

939
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,280
And, you know, I think you have to live on this side of the world to really see the impact.

940
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:47,680
But I remember particularly, there was something I was saying to my mom was like, Oh, you know,

941
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:51,440
I can't wait to see this sort of like Trump supporters in Canada come out of the woodwork

942
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,040
and you know, like, you know, particularly in November.

943
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,880
And I would be not surprised.

944
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,240
Mom was like, Oh, no, but it's Canada.

945
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:00,840
I'm like, no, they will.

946
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,920
They'll they'll sneak their way out.

947
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,560
They'll find a way.

948
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:14,840
And it's a lot of it's not to do with like, it's just to do with the fact that I think

949
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:20,120
education, you know, like worldwide, like, you know, I'm blaming Western, I'm blaming

950
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:25,740
colonization, a lot of this, you know, but worldwide has always been quite terrible.

951
00:54:25,740 --> 00:54:29,480
And I think we sort of cut off a lot of it.

952
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:34,120
And that is what drove me so insane about Australia is when you go to the like, the

953
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:39,560
country, you go to the rural areas, where it's like just towns, like, you know, population

954
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,020
120 or something like that.

955
00:54:42,020 --> 00:54:44,820
And you talk to someone and you'd see the queer people there.

956
00:54:44,820 --> 00:54:50,440
And they would have their first Mardi Gras that year in 2022.

957
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,240
And I'm like, that's your first one.

958
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:54,520
And it's exciting.

959
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,560
But you'd see how many people were like, you'd see all the bigots come out.

960
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,160
But then you'd also see other people who were very forage.

961
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,360
And the populace was there were more people for it.

962
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,640
They just didn't know that other people were for it.

963
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:09,240
And that's the thing.

964
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:14,040
Like, I feel like we're in this consensus, people get scared.

965
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,760
Like, they get scared of which way, you know, like we're saying with voting, they just

966
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,360
get scared of, you know, and I will always say to someone is like, why would you want

967
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,280
to vote for someone that I necessarily wouldn't vote for?

968
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:29,800
I want to understand so that I can see, because we had a referendum, which I think was really

969
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,280
interesting.

970
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:36,960
So Indigenous and First Nations Australians were going to be given a vote in parliament.

971
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:38,440
And it did not get passed.

972
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:42,080
It didn't end up, it was meant to be this big thing where it's like, they would get

973
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:46,000
a vote, they would know what would happen to the land that they originally owned.

974
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,000
Australia did not pass it.

975
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,280
The consensus was not enough people were for it.

976
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,920
And I remember saying to someone who worked with them said, this is the biggest step back

977
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,080
for Australia, is massively stepped back.

978
00:55:57,080 --> 00:56:00,000
And he was like, oh, I voted no.

979
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,000
Why did you vote no?

980
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,240
Like, why did you vote against it?

981
00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:05,560
And he was like, oh, my family owned farmland.

982
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:12,240
And I was like, okay, just because your family owns farmland does not mean the Indigenous

983
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:15,840
nations, like Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island people are going to take it back.

984
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,840
They're not going to rip your family full of land.

985
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:26,080
They just get a say to what happens to Australia and to the people of their tribes and their

986
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:27,080
tribes.

987
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:28,320
That's what makes it nuts.

988
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:33,400
And this is such an out on Australia, but we are incredibly racist country.

989
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,520
We are like so problematic in terms of that.

990
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:42,120
But we get that we get all the worst parts because a lot of it was emigrated through

991
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,800
British hate, which then emigrated to the US and to Australia.

992
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,040
And we have not changed.

993
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:48,040
We have not changed.

994
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,880
And you know, like, I think what Canada does amazingly well is they have a tax exempt for

995
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,120
First Nation people, they make them pay a lower threshold.

996
00:56:55,120 --> 00:57:02,480
So you don't have to pay as much tax as like people who were white colonisation, like people.

997
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:03,840
And I think that's very fair.

998
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:04,840
Yeah, that's right.

999
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:09,880
You know, that's that's a small, small little like gracious thing.

1000
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:14,080
But you know, it's it's like little things that, you know, I wish we you know, because

1001
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:19,920
I remember when the Black Lives Matter thing happened in Australia, I saw so many people

1002
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:25,760
just be like, I'm going to buy some art, indigenous art, and that will be my contribution.

1003
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,240
And it was a running joke in Australia where all the white people would suddenly do it

1004
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:30,720
and they're bringing this home.

1005
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,840
You know, I've got this piece of work.

1006
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:41,000
I mean, do you particularly like Maine as a state is a lot better than a lot of the

1007
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,760
Midwest and outer areas like versus other states.

1008
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:49,880
I mean, do you find that Maine's a particularly progressive state or is it still kind of like

1009
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:51,520
on its pockets?

1010
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:57,160
Well, so here's the difference is I was in Little Beach, South Carolina for many years.

1011
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,160
I was born originally up here in Maine.

1012
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,720
And you went you went there by choice.

1013
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,720
No, my dad.

1014
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:09,000
Yeah, my dad teaches US history up through the Civil War.

1015
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:10,000
And oh, wow.

1016
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:11,000
Yeah.

1017
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,000
PhD.

1018
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:16,760
And he's like six feet tall with a mustache and people all think that he's Sam Elliott.

1019
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,800
So that's my dad.

1020
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:23,800
And and then my mom's like this teeny tiny cute little also wicked smart wicked cool.

1021
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:31,320
But they I think that he ended up down here specifically for the teaching job or down

1022
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:32,320
there.

1023
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:33,320
Oh, God.

1024
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:37,280
He ended up he he brought us down there.

1025
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:38,360
And good gig.

1026
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,800
He's still teaching.

1027
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:48,640
But we ended up in the south and it was there's a lot of things down there that I still have

1028
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:50,480
a great love for.

1029
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:55,360
And one of them is the Bojangles chain, sausage, biscuits, dirty rice, etc.

1030
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,360
But more than that, it's the black community.

1031
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,320
And that's all we really don't have in Maine as much.

1032
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:07,280
There are pockets of Somali migrants who have have come to Maine specifically around here.

1033
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:08,440
Portland is pretty big for that.

1034
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:10,360
And then Lewiston, Auburn.

1035
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:17,120
And they faced an incredible amount of backlash, despite being like having this really flourishing,

1036
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:23,480
beautiful community and bringing so much to us and bringing their their professions and

1037
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,240
their education and things like that.

1038
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:34,240
But I just the way that I was able to live alongside the like southern black community

1039
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:42,200
down like the coastal black community was for me, it was so much more nourishing to

1040
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:47,000
be around people and to see the actual like workings of humanity in that sense.

1041
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:52,280
And I think there's more progressiveness up here and in New England in general.

1042
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:57,080
But in these very white states like Maine and Massachusetts and New Hampshire, it's

1043
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:05,380
sort of a theoretical progressiveness where it's like, you know, there'll be these people

1044
01:00:05,380 --> 01:00:13,880
who are they're very active in terms of like securing minority rights and protecting people,

1045
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,560
you know, based on things that they can't control across the board.

1046
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,880
But they also don't know how to relate to people of color.

1047
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:26,280
They don't know what they would do around a person of color.

1048
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:34,960
And so it's sort of like the way that perceived vulnerability and like victimization dehumanizes

1049
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:39,000
people by just a different turn as well.

1050
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:46,900
So that's the that's the tricky thing is that like Maine hypothetically is a much better

1051
01:00:46,900 --> 01:00:54,400
place for people of color in general to exist and to be represented and to not be mired

1052
01:00:54,400 --> 01:01:01,680
in the absolute muck of like the leftover plantation economy, you know, the like very

1053
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:06,880
obviously still segregated areas of like South Carolina, North Carolina.

1054
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:13,760
And like, but the tricky thing is that we would have to get so much smarter, so much

1055
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:20,400
quicker socially speaking, in order to really make that like a nurturing environment, because

1056
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:32,240
the it's it's just so much harder to truly advocate for people when you're coming from

1057
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:38,640
a position of such privilege that you don't even have to see their communities.

1058
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:43,320
You don't even have to see you know, one of the places that I was tutoring that I was

1059
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,360
volunteering at down south was an area called Race Path.

1060
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,520
And I was working in an after school program there working with the kids.

1061
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,640
And it was literally a blighted community.

1062
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:56,160
So they like economically speaking, the way that the infrastructure of that town is laid

1063
01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:01,100
out is different from the town over from it that's predominantly white.

1064
01:02:01,100 --> 01:02:07,300
And so it's stuff like that, that like, you people up here who haven't really met many

1065
01:02:07,300 --> 01:02:11,960
black people, especially not many like black Americans who are here as a result of ancestral

1066
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:19,480
like slave trade, they don't really understand the ways in which community forms within and

1067
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:21,580
around those sorts of things.

1068
01:02:21,580 --> 01:02:30,200
So up here, I think some of the like white savior complex, and it's everywhere, obviously,

1069
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:37,120
but that can sort of erase the really beautiful groundbreaking things that black people have

1070
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:38,120
done.

1071
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:43,280
And I mean, so much of the southern culture, what we think of as as like country culture,

1072
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:47,040
the cool things that we want to preserve and the things that people relate to are from

1073
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:48,040
the black community.

1074
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:54,680
I mean, if you think about like food and music and art, and even like architectural things,

1075
01:02:54,680 --> 01:03:00,560
the way that like people who are in these horrible situations for that long, you know,

1076
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:03,280
like they're gonna make good things within it.

1077
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,540
And so it's not like, you know, take people and then move them somewhere else, move them

1078
01:03:06,540 --> 01:03:10,880
somewhere better, because like, for better or worse, the south is black people now.

1079
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:17,520
And there's a there's a huge chunk that they're that like they are to thank for and where

1080
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,780
they're comfortable and where they have their communities and where they know how to sort

1081
01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:25,400
of navigate their social reality in a way that we we can't really provide them in a

1082
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,880
place where we don't.

1083
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,840
We don't already have that structure built for them.

1084
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,920
So the difference is a weird one.

1085
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,160
And that's been the biggest.

1086
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:40,000
That's been the biggest thing that I've missed, because there's definitely ways that we can

1087
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,680
advocate more for the Somali immigrants up here.

1088
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,600
But that's also a completely different.

1089
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:49,800
I mean, they're they're experiencing a lot of the overlap of vitriol at people of color

1090
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:55,400
and of people like women who are wearing hijabs and stuff like that.

1091
01:03:55,400 --> 01:04:00,320
But it's it's such a different it's so different.

1092
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:04,880
And especially being confined to pockets and being still be able to told, you know, go

1093
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:10,480
back, go back to wherever, go back to where you came from, that sort of thing.

1094
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:11,480
I don't know.

1095
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:17,960
I just hope that that community is able to take root a little bit more firmly and that

1096
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:25,800
they're able to really find their their footing here to the extent that they want to.

1097
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:30,280
Because I think that that would be the best thing like for Maine in general, especially

1098
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,880
like the Lewiston-Auburn area, things like that, like from an evil side, just the commerce

1099
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:39,400
alone bringing the food, bringing the arts, bringing the I mean, there's there's groups

1100
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:44,600
that are specifically led by like Somali women that are community resource groups, community

1101
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:50,440
gardens and things like that, and a lot of the white people of Maine have gotten real

1102
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:54,560
just just real lazy about like community shit, you know.

1103
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:57,520
And it's something that gets really it.

1104
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:02,920
It's so in the forefront of your mind when you're being constantly discriminated against

1105
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:10,680
and constantly othered that like it's like black communities, incredible, like the Latino

1106
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:16,400
community is incredible, white people have like no accountability to each other.

1107
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,120
It's so weird.

1108
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:19,120
It's so weird to see.

1109
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:23,240
I mean, I'm glad because I'd rather we not be able to organize just based by white people

1110
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:24,240
anyways.

1111
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:28,120
But at the same time, it's like, it's a fucking free roll out here.

1112
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:29,120
I know.

1113
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:31,120
It's it is weird.

1114
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:32,120
Yeah.

1115
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:39,320
I'm like, I didn't realize it's so like, particularly also that it's so wide until

1116
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:41,560
I actually arrived.

1117
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:44,960
And then I was like, God, it is why it's so wide.

1118
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:50,320
And it's it's so funny to me because being in Toronto, there is like there's a massive

1119
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:57,640
like Indian and Middle Eastern and you know, just this real sort of like you got African

1120
01:05:57,640 --> 01:05:59,840
American like, you know, people as well.

1121
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:03,360
And so you really get the sense of community like everyone's like a migrant.

1122
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:07,200
Everyone's come from some like Toronto is a great melting pot of like, everyone you

1123
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,760
speak to has a different accent, and it's kind of the best point where it's like, we've

1124
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:11,760
all come here.

1125
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:14,520
We're all doing this migrant experience.

1126
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,880
And it makes you feel like part of community and it makes you feel like you can just chat

1127
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:20,440
to anyone be like, where are you from?

1128
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:21,440
Like, what's your background?

1129
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:24,000
What's you know, and it's really cool.

1130
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:28,400
But coming here, I was like, I was like, oh, it's in the back of my head saying, God, I

1131
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:29,400
hate white people.

1132
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:30,400
Yeah, everywhere.

1133
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:31,400
Yeah.

1134
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:32,400
Yeah.

1135
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:33,400
We breed like wildfire.

1136
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:34,400
It's terrible.

1137
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:42,840
I mean, and there's this white privilege that obviously, you know, if we weren't white,

1138
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:44,920
you know, God, how far would we get?

1139
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:46,640
Totally different experience.

1140
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:54,160
But I do think there's something to be and I grew up with one of my friends was like,

1141
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,360
indigenous when I was in like, preschool.

1142
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:05,520
And I remember, she and I were very close and to probably like, you know, middle school.

1143
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:07,500
And then we sort of went into our own social groups.

1144
01:07:07,500 --> 01:07:11,960
But I remember particularly we were, it was like everyone, you know, I was like, you're

1145
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:12,960
my best friend.

1146
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,280
Like, you know, we're kids and you're my best friend.

1147
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,440
You know, but I do think that people were like, oh, you have that quintessential like

1148
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:19,440
best friend who's indigenous.

1149
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,120
And I was like, no, they're just my best friend.

1150
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:24,400
Like, I did not even put that into accountability.

1151
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:29,120
And it's so interesting here, because I had that upbringing where I was like, I really

1152
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:31,080
didn't think much about stuff like this.

1153
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:35,280
It was like, we're all part of like, you know, just friends and getting to know each other

1154
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,600
and having different experiences is the best.

1155
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:43,960
But I do get a real interest link when you know, like, and I think people need to do

1156
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:47,200
some research and like stolen generation and stuff like that, where it's like people have

1157
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,000
been taken to schools and forced in.

1158
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:53,840
There's great Australian play, which is about the stolen generation where white Australians

1159
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:59,040
would take kids from indigenous backgrounds and force them into Western culture schools.

1160
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,160
And it was terrible.

1161
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:02,160
Look it up.

1162
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:07,480
And but I particularly I do find it like such a weird thing where it's like, you know, and

1163
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:11,080
I've had this conversation with one of my friends about like, you know, perceiving race

1164
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:16,200
and what is race and what is ethnicity and what is culture and and there's a great like

1165
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:19,340
there's a few documentaries on it as well, which is like, you know, some people say race

1166
01:08:19,340 --> 01:08:24,060
doesn't really exist, cultural exists, but race is kind of like something that humanity

1167
01:08:24,060 --> 01:08:29,240
made up to kind of compensate for the fact that we needed something to divide us and

1168
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:33,560
rather than it being like, but cultural things are massive.

1169
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:36,360
Like that is like, you know, where you've grown up, what you've done, you know, everything

1170
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:37,960
like that, you know.

1171
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:39,720
And I think that is very prevalent.

1172
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:46,060
I don't I do think that yeah, race is like probably overused as a word.

1173
01:08:46,060 --> 01:08:50,560
But like, I think we've sort of just put a branding on it and just gone, well, that's

1174
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:56,360
like, you know, and I think culture is really what is the most defining factor of like,

1175
01:08:56,360 --> 01:09:00,280
you know, what you've grown up with what your experiences are, because that really defines

1176
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:01,280
us.

1177
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:06,760
Like, as children, we're so susceptible to everything around us, our accents, the way

1178
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:10,400
we talk, the way we structure ourselves.

1179
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:14,040
And that to me says mountains more.

1180
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:17,120
But then you also have kids who go, I want to know where I'm from, you know, if they've

1181
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:21,440
been adopted, or they've, you know, come from different communities.

1182
01:09:21,440 --> 01:09:24,120
And that is also totally valid to find out where you're from.

1183
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:30,440
And I think like legacy and ancestry is such an important part of knowing so much about

1184
01:09:30,440 --> 01:09:39,800
yourself because the way the way we grow is DNA is, you know, like we learn through like,

1185
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:45,600
you know, DNA, you know, and so there's like part of you that is like, from both your parents,

1186
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:49,320
but also from your grandparents and part of like, you know, and that's how DNA strand

1187
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:50,320
works.

1188
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:53,160
And so you're an amalgamation of like so many different people.

1189
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:55,040
And I think that's really awesome.

1190
01:09:55,040 --> 01:10:01,080
So when you when you grow up with the community and you grow up with diversity, and I think,

1191
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,960
you know, I talked to a lot of people which, you know, they go, why did you travel from

1192
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:06,240
Australia, Australia so far, I'm like, oh, you should go to Australia.

1193
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:07,560
And they're like, oh, it's too far.

1194
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,000
Like, I don't want to go on a plane for 21 hours.

1195
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:11,280
I'm like, you should though.

1196
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:15,040
Yeah, like get out of your comfort zone, go somewhere else.

1197
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:20,520
It's the best thing I went to, like, I've been to three countries where they don't speak

1198
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:21,520
English.

1199
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:25,560
And, you know, it was the best experience of my life to not go somewhere where you know

1200
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:26,560
the language.

1201
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:32,240
And I was like, this is just an eye opener, because it's forced me to get really uncomfortable

1202
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:33,280
very quickly.

1203
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:39,080
And I love that feeling of stepping outside of my box and going, I'm, I'm up to the elements,

1204
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:41,840
like, fuck, what do you do?

1205
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:46,680
And I get the privilege that I have, which is being a white person.

1206
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:52,320
And you know, like, you know, being cis passing has also, you know, as I said before, gotten

1207
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:55,040
me out of some sticky situations.

1208
01:10:55,040 --> 01:11:01,720
But I do think it is also like, you need to be open minded, you need to, you know, really

1209
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:04,400
see the world.

1210
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:10,320
Like it's, it's so frustrating when I hear people not understand the outside of their

1211
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:14,520
own little like segregated box and just go, oh, it's all normal.

1212
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:15,520
Yeah.

1213
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:16,520
I just want to amuse it.

1214
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:20,440
Oh, the nose blindness that comes from the division is wild.

1215
01:11:20,440 --> 01:11:25,040
And I think I noticed it the most keenly when I started learning more about social linguistics,

1216
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:30,920
which is like, there are so many people who, especially down south, and even, but I can't

1217
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:36,440
even say that just all across America who think that they are totally colorblind.

1218
01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:38,400
They don't, you know, I love black people.

1219
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:43,560
I voted for Obama, but then they see something like African American vernacular English,

1220
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,840
which is, I mean, it has its own grammar structure.

1221
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:48,080
It has its own rules.

1222
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:52,040
Like it is a, I mean, it's a dialect, but also like some people were regarded as a whole

1223
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,080
intact language on its own.

1224
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:57,520
And like, they'll see that and they'll say like, well, that's a mistake that's being

1225
01:11:57,520 --> 01:11:58,520
made.

1226
01:11:58,520 --> 01:11:59,520
Clearly someone's uneducated.

1227
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:01,120
They don't speak the way that I do.

1228
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:06,360
And so, you know, or even just the way that we'll perceive non-native English speakers

1229
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:13,000
with broken English, which is a pejorative phase, but like they'll be seen as less intelligent

1230
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:18,920
because they can't form the same like syntactical structure as a native English speaker, but

1231
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:22,040
they'll be perceived that way by people who are monolinguists.

1232
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:23,840
Like I don't know another language.

1233
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:28,760
If I hear somebody speaking a version of English that I can, I can understand, but I can recognize

1234
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,240
their accent in it or their original grammar structure in it.

1235
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,620
They know another language that I don't.

1236
01:12:34,620 --> 01:12:37,880
And so it's that like cognitive dissonance that I think is really persistent.

1237
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:42,760
And so one of the things that I always, I love to beat the shit out of people with in

1238
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:49,400
conversation is like, when people try to say, you know, I'll hear a black person say or

1239
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:56,960
write like, well, we always be doing this, you know, and they immediately take that as

1240
01:12:56,960 --> 01:12:58,920
like, oh, nope, you didn't play the game right.

1241
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:03,580
I have to police you now because the ivory tower tells me that I know English better

1242
01:13:03,580 --> 01:13:04,580
than you do.

1243
01:13:04,580 --> 01:13:09,920
But really that's the habitual B that appears in all kinds of languages and a lot of our

1244
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:10,920
structures.

1245
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,160
So like you never end a sentence with a preposition.

1246
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:20,120
Like the structure makes complete sense to us intuitively.

1247
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:22,080
Everybody knows what we're saying.

1248
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:27,880
It sounds the most natural to the ear and it works the most naturally in the mouth.

1249
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:32,840
But people like prescriptive grammarians will still try to say, no, you can't use that sentence

1250
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:33,840
like that.

1251
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:37,040
It's not correct because it's not following a Latin structure.

1252
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:39,560
This is not a Latin language.

1253
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:40,880
It was never a Latin language.

1254
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:42,880
It was especially never a pure Latin language.

1255
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:48,640
I mean, we've got all kinds of, you know, like Germanic, the fucking the like French

1256
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,680
influence on terribly.

1257
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:53,120
There's so many things and I love it.

1258
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:56,360
I love English because it's a mud of a language.

1259
01:13:56,360 --> 01:14:00,360
And it's just, it's, well, it's horrible because it's very hard to break into as a non-native

1260
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:01,360
English speaker.

1261
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,120
It's like one of the hardest languages in the world.

1262
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:04,120
Exactly.

1263
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,820
But it's also kind of beautiful in this other way that like you can see all the claw marks

1264
01:14:07,820 --> 01:14:10,360
all over it whenever you're studying it.

1265
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:16,920
But to have that absolutely absurd backwards-ass bastardized language and then to have the

1266
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:22,680
people who speak it from birth try to police it as though it's this immaculate, like, well,

1267
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:24,840
we figured it all out correctly.

1268
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:29,160
Like the word the is pronounced in multiple different ways.

1269
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:32,200
The sentence, I never said she stole my money.

1270
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:35,800
You put different emphasis on each one of those words and it means something completely

1271
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:36,840
different.

1272
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:43,560
And it's like all this stuff, you know, it's, it's sort of a grab for comfort because especially

1273
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:48,520
people who don't have a ton of formal education in English, they say, well, I know which there

1274
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:49,960
versus there to use.

1275
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:54,160
And so I have something that I can kind of bolster myself with and I have something that

1276
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:56,540
I can wield over other people.

1277
01:14:56,540 --> 01:15:00,520
And so I always say that it's like, that's one of the quickest ways to tell whether somebody

1278
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:06,600
has really studied English or whether they've just been introduced to the heavily prescribed

1279
01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:10,280
version of it that we use to make kids feel like shit.

1280
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:14,880
Because it's, it's, it's whether you love the language and you, you study it and you

1281
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:18,520
see it for what it is and you're interested in the ways that it's changing and in the

1282
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:22,640
ways that it's inconsistent or whether you wield it like a weapon and you say, if this

1283
01:15:22,640 --> 01:15:24,920
changes then I'm absolutely fucked.

1284
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:29,560
Cause I don't know what Riz means and I don't know what the skippity toilet is.

1285
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:30,560
No.

1286
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:34,560
And the thing, the thing that makes me laugh the most is in Australia, we shorten words.

1287
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:40,120
We've got like, we're very, cause we, we had like Irish cockney, like that's a lot

1288
01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:41,120
of our convicts.

1289
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:48,640
The convicts who came over were from Ireland, you know, and like Cornwall and stuff like

1290
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:49,640
that.

1291
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:52,720
They were English like, so a lot of it was bastardized even further.

1292
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:54,800
So they shortened words.

1293
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:58,920
And particularly when we came over, I was like throwing words out there, like, you know,

1294
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,600
I was like, oh, you know, the Savo, we're going to do something.

1295
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:03,000
It's like, AVO, Savo.

1296
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:04,540
So this afternoon.

1297
01:16:04,540 --> 01:16:07,600
So that was like our shortened version.

1298
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:10,840
This is another word we use, so I'll do that in a squiz.

1299
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:15,160
Squiz means in a tick and in a tick, you know, like quite soon.

1300
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:19,880
So you say, oh, or, or my other favorite is like, I'll take a squiz of that, which is

1301
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:20,880
I'll take a look at that.

1302
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:21,880
Oh my God.

1303
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:22,880
Yeah.

1304
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:23,940
So squiz is a very common word in Australia.

1305
01:16:23,940 --> 01:16:30,640
It's like a monaculum and I love it because you know, the, there are so many words that

1306
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:36,760
we use in Australian, like colloquialisms that, you know, and the fact that my father-in-law

1307
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:40,640
was Canadian born and is an immigrant.

1308
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:45,760
He loves the fact that like he now knows shortened like words because it's fun.

1309
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:49,400
Because when he gets to talk to his, you know, his sister, he can kind of like trick her

1310
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:53,340
out and, you know, give her words because she's lived in Canada her whole life.

1311
01:16:53,340 --> 01:16:59,760
So it's, there is a joy to being like, you know, knowing different ways of, you know,

1312
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:01,660
like languages have formed.

1313
01:17:01,660 --> 01:17:09,520
And there is like also like so, so funny because like my mom, obviously someone who studied

1314
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:12,520
English, studied it to the nth degree.

1315
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:13,760
And then went, this is wrong.

1316
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:14,920
You can't pronounce it like this.

1317
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:19,120
I'm like, no, you should like just pronounce it any way you fucking want.

1318
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:24,040
Like it's cause the whole point of like changing, you know, like Shakespeare made up words,

1319
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:27,700
Shakespeare specifically made up words to fill in gaps.

1320
01:17:27,700 --> 01:17:33,600
And now we use them as like, you know, sentences all the time.

1321
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:41,560
And I really think that, and someone who like I have ADHD, so a lot of my word processing

1322
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:43,640
was like skew with all my life.

1323
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:50,440
So I kind of loved that of being like, Oh, like pros will never quite, I'll say something

1324
01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:54,720
or I'll say like, um, you know, a sentence and it might be a little bit jarring or it

1325
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:55,720
might be.

1326
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:59,440
But it makes sense to me because I understand this way of talking.

1327
01:17:59,440 --> 01:18:06,260
So you know, I do love that that is a, this is a way of like distinguishing.

1328
01:18:06,260 --> 01:18:11,440
And I've met so many people like around the world.

1329
01:18:11,440 --> 01:18:17,880
And you know, I think the fun is like learning how to talk to them through their own vernacular

1330
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:21,480
and never, and like teaching them your own, like, you know, finding the mid ground where

1331
01:18:21,480 --> 01:18:23,800
you go, okay, I'll say it like this, but you say it like that.

1332
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:26,680
But like, how do we, how do we find it?

1333
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:32,360
And I think, you know, it's the joy of, um, uh, particularly I'm a huge, if we're going

1334
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:37,460
back to a film and horror films that I love Robert Eggers, who's a fantastic, who did

1335
01:18:37,460 --> 01:18:43,600
the witch and, um, is about to do Nosferatu, but, um, he uses old language.

1336
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:47,120
Like he does so much research into the language of the time.

1337
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:50,360
And it's amazing how many people come out and go, Oh, I didn't understand a word of

1338
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:51,360
that.

1339
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:55,560
And I'm like, the point is it's not, it was how they spoke.

1340
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:59,280
And it was terribly like, you know, all over the place.

1341
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:01,520
And, but that's how people spoke.

1342
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:03,440
That's how it was written.

1343
01:19:03,440 --> 01:19:09,640
And you understand it because, you know, like words, words like meek, um, and stuff were

1344
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:15,760
used so commonly then, um, just describe someone who's like almost pathetic or, you know, no

1345
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:16,760
strength.

1346
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:23,440
And I love when people use old words that are no longer around.

1347
01:19:23,440 --> 01:19:29,040
I mean, is that kind of like your joy as a writer to kind of like find, find little like

1348
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:31,760
snippets to be like, what am I going to talk to someone today?

1349
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:38,920
Well, I took my, uh, my mentor Hastings Hensel's his, his note on keeping a list of just cool

1350
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:41,040
words that you like.

1351
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:47,000
Um, and so I have just an entire rundown of different weird words.

1352
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:51,280
Like, I didn't know Zenith until recently, like, yeah.

1353
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:53,560
Zenith I've heard of them before.

1354
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,680
A planet is at like, it's, it's peak positioning.

1355
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:01,160
That's not a great one, but that's a great word.

1356
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:05,400
Contraposto that yeah, I didn't know that that was this, you know, like positioning

1357
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:08,400
in portraiture and in statues and stuff like that.

1358
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,280
Um, so many, so many different things.

1359
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:12,200
I learned, um, Parthenogenesis.

1360
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:13,600
Oh yes.

1361
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:14,600
Yeah.

1362
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:17,840
For this novel, wicked cool.

1363
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:19,720
And I love, um, I love doing poetry.

1364
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:20,720
I just don't trust poetry.

1365
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:26,440
And so I don't do it as much anymore, but, um, whenever I did that, like economy of language

1366
01:20:26,440 --> 01:20:31,440
and findings that this really, really cool, um, Oh, my, my favorite lyricist, John Darnielle

1367
01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:36,840
of mountain goats does a lot of that where he'll use a word that, um, he has a song called

1368
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:37,840
autoclave.

1369
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:43,720
I didn't know what an autoclave was, but this, the refrain is my heart's an autoclave.

1370
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:48,400
And so it's like, he'll use language that's like, well, yeah, you like the beat.

1371
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:50,560
You like the, the vocals.

1372
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:53,680
Like if you want to really get another layer of this, you're going to have to look up what

1373
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:58,120
the hell I'm talking about, you know, uses biblical illusions that way too.

1374
01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:02,760
Um, so yeah, I think that's, um, that's a big one for me in etymology.

1375
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:06,000
I only recently found out, and I was thinking about this from what you said earlier, that,

1376
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:11,520
um, the uppercase and lowercase etymology of that and where that comes from, from the,

1377
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:17,120
like the printing press, what letters are kept on literally the upper case of the thing

1378
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:19,000
that's opening up versus the bottom one.

1379
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:22,660
Wild friend of mine who's in, he's doing law, he's a law clerk.

1380
01:21:22,660 --> 01:21:26,280
He was explaining something to me and he just said, I don't know where, um, it's basically

1381
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:28,360
a boiler plate this.

1382
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,420
And I was like, Oh, what?

1383
01:21:31,420 --> 01:21:32,660
And so he's like boilerplate.

1384
01:21:32,660 --> 01:21:34,360
It means just like kind of copy paste.

1385
01:21:34,360 --> 01:21:36,480
Like it's, it's the standard format for something.

1386
01:21:36,480 --> 01:21:40,200
And I was like, that is just bullshit of a word.

1387
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:42,640
Like where did that come from?

1388
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:43,740
Boilerplate.

1389
01:21:43,740 --> 01:21:47,920
And so it's stuff like that, that I love seeing, cause that's the human element of language,

1390
01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:48,920
right?

1391
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:53,720
It's like you, you could refine everything to be as quick and as concise or something

1392
01:21:53,720 --> 01:21:58,240
as you want, but people are gonna mess with it regardless in between.

1393
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:01,680
And I think that's one of the things that we really struggle with from generation to

1394
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:08,320
generation too, where you stop knowing the slang and the, um, the vocabulary stops being

1395
01:22:08,320 --> 01:22:09,760
as intuitive to you.

1396
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:14,400
The immediate reaction is fear for a lot of people because then how do I know that I'm

1397
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:19,080
being understood and how do I know that I'm communicating like capital R right?

1398
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:21,360
And just like learn and listen.

1399
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:24,880
And a lot of it, I didn't know that Riz was from the word charisma.

1400
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:27,040
That's cool as hell.

1401
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:28,040
I love that.

1402
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:34,600
I think it's also like for me, I've my entire life had to learn new words, like, you know,

1403
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:36,720
and that's also because of tech jargon.

1404
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:42,840
Like when someone, you know, like jargons are real, like new like thing all the time.

1405
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:44,460
It's like, why was this called thing?

1406
01:22:44,460 --> 01:22:45,460
Why was this called that?

1407
01:22:45,460 --> 01:22:47,760
Why was this called, um, so-and-so?

1408
01:22:47,760 --> 01:22:52,000
And you realize that people are just like, it's legacy, you know, and even then it's

1409
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:53,400
like people go, what's legacy?

1410
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:58,720
And you're like, well, the legacy of like, you know, words just sticking around because

1411
01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:03,400
my favorite one is, um, you know, from film sets, which is sound speed.

1412
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:07,920
And the original reason that it was speed is because the tape actually had to get up

1413
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,600
to a certain speed and then it could able to record sound.

1414
01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:13,700
But we never knew that until we went to uni.

1415
01:23:13,700 --> 01:23:21,280
And so for me, I was like, this is a really cool, like reason that has stuck around because

1416
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:25,960
you don't want to just go, I'm recording, like that just sounds really boring.

1417
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:31,200
So you kind of keep these cool little ways of saying stuff, um, along.

1418
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:34,840
And I do think there's certain terminology that never goes away.

1419
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:37,120
There's certain words that will never go away.

1420
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:39,240
Um, and then we'll change.

1421
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:44,360
Um, but like, I remember when lol started being used like daily by people.

1422
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:49,440
Um, and you know, now like slays become a very big word, which I love.

1423
01:23:49,440 --> 01:23:54,560
Um, but you know, like the next generation coming in are always finding new words.

1424
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:58,960
Like I've, I've, you know, sometimes surrounded myself with like, you know, when I, on the

1425
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:03,620
set or something, I'll be like around 19, 20 year olds and they're throwing out words.

1426
01:24:03,620 --> 01:24:11,320
Like my, um, my 15 year old, um, uh, cousin's kid is like throwing out new words at me.

1427
01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:13,080
I'm like, what the fuck?

1428
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:15,480
Like tell me everything I need to know.

1429
01:24:15,480 --> 01:24:16,480
I need to absorb.

1430
01:24:16,480 --> 01:24:19,420
Like, it's just, it's just so fascinating.

1431
01:24:19,420 --> 01:24:24,480
But I think it's like the real shift of the, um, the language and you know, how, you know,

1432
01:24:24,480 --> 01:24:29,760
cause there is a theory, there is a, like, um, a lot of the languages that we know how

1433
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:31,080
useful they are.

1434
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:35,240
Uh, there's a statistics out there, which I looked up recently is there's, there's a

1435
01:24:35,240 --> 01:24:37,440
lot of languages that are not really useful anymore.

1436
01:24:37,440 --> 01:24:41,740
Like they were really interesting back in the day because we were all sort of like everywhere,

1437
01:24:41,740 --> 01:24:44,520
but now as times going on, they kind of like a dying.

1438
01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:50,240
So Italian, the language of Italy is really useless now considering the math.

1439
01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:51,240
Yeah.

1440
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:54,560
But it's still, it's only stuck around because of generational like stuff.

1441
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:59,520
So a lot of the reason like languages stick around, um, but, um, Cantonese and Mandarin

1442
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:04,540
are some of the most popular languages that most people speak around the world and then

1443
01:25:04,540 --> 01:25:07,280
English and like, those are the three like top.

1444
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:13,520
So they, there's a statistic reckoned that one day they will be, um, Mandarin and Cantonese

1445
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:16,840
and English will be the only languages that anyone ever speaks.

1446
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:18,400
And that's it.

1447
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:23,760
Um, and isn't that fascinating that maybe in millions of years, like, you know, that

1448
01:25:23,760 --> 01:25:29,000
we'll have old texts, um, like the Rosetta stone, like to me is fascinating because we

1449
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:34,680
had no way of understanding, um, Egyptian hieroglyphs and now we do.

1450
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:39,080
And that's like a stone that was found years after.

1451
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:41,880
Um, so that's how languages evolve.

1452
01:25:41,880 --> 01:25:43,400
And one day we won't be able to read anything.

1453
01:25:43,400 --> 01:25:48,040
I mean, like you, you know, scientists do say that one day in 5 billion years, this

1454
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:51,320
planet will be ash and you know, nothing.

1455
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:56,520
Um, and we'll be off on another planet if we survive at that point, but it's, it's fascinating,

1456
01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:57,520
isn't it?

1457
01:25:57,520 --> 01:25:59,800
It's just like, we don't actually know.

1458
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:04,440
So there is, there is sort of like, I know going into the existential crisis moment of

1459
01:26:04,440 --> 01:26:07,440
like, you know, do what's the point of everything.

1460
01:26:07,440 --> 01:26:08,440
I think there was a lot of point.

1461
01:26:08,440 --> 01:26:14,720
I think it's just fascinating to see the evolution of something go and be like, how do we, you

1462
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:18,680
know, keep some things alive, but also evolve into new words.

1463
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,720
And I mean, like that's the joy of being, I guess, a writer.

1464
01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:23,080
Um, you know,

1465
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:26,480
Ooh, now do you guys have a home dialect?

1466
01:26:26,480 --> 01:26:32,440
Do you have things that is like just shorthand in your house from being partnered?

1467
01:26:32,440 --> 01:26:38,040
Um, a few, a few, I can't remember off the top of my head.

1468
01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:43,560
Cause we, Cass and I have descended into almost just like Muppet speak.

1469
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:45,240
It is so dire.

1470
01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:46,240
Yeah.

1471
01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:52,760
It's, um, if a cat is doing something that's really cute, usually belly out, you know,

1472
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:54,240
like splay it on the floor.

1473
01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:59,240
Uh, we started saying like, ew, like, oh my God, that's, you're so gross.

1474
01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:01,200
Oh, you're so disgusting.

1475
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:03,480
And then that got short and disgusting.

1476
01:27:03,480 --> 01:27:06,480
And then, so now if I'm like, radio is being disgusting on the cat.

1477
01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:09,880
He knows that he can go over and she's probably splay it out.

1478
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:16,520
And there's, um, can, can I have my, can I have my wawa bottle?

1479
01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:18,040
It's just like toddler speak.

1480
01:27:18,040 --> 01:27:20,040
Cause it's just shorter and shorter and shorter.

1481
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:21,040
Tricious.

1482
01:27:21,040 --> 01:27:22,040
I love it.

1483
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:23,040
Brutal.

1484
01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:24,040
It is so bad.

1485
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:25,040
It gets to the point back and forth.

1486
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:28,480
I mean, we could make noises just back and forth at each other forever, but between me

1487
01:27:28,480 --> 01:27:32,200
shortening things, coming up with my own idioms and stuff like that.

1488
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:33,200
And then,

1489
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:34,200
Oh yeah.

1490
01:27:34,200 --> 01:27:40,880
Like we've, um, we, we still like say when I love you, we say, mom, you, like we do things

1491
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:42,920
like that, or it's just like not even words.

1492
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:50,560
It's just the noise of, um, and, or like, um, when we need something, like we have,

1493
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:55,420
we use the word need now, as in when we need to get out of a situation or we need each

1494
01:27:55,420 --> 01:27:58,120
other's support, we just go need.

1495
01:27:58,120 --> 01:27:59,120
And that's it.

1496
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:03,000
And it's like just a little words where it's like, you know, we've just taken a word and

1497
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:04,200
we just go, we want that.

1498
01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:05,200
That's it.

1499
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:06,200
That's it.

1500
01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:08,000
And we don't need to communicate that to anyone else.

1501
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:10,600
And there is a joy in that.

1502
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:15,320
Um, um, but yeah, it's like, you know, so bizarre.

1503
01:28:15,320 --> 01:28:18,640
And it's a microcosm of what happens to language on a wide scale, right?

1504
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:23,760
So like if you want to know what a word is going to sound like in 200 years, if you say

1505
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:27,800
it really fast over and over again, you'll hear where your palate is going to start to

1506
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:29,640
kind of skip steps.

1507
01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:33,720
Because really the way that words change, um, unless it's for like a cultural reason

1508
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:37,240
or it's getting misconstrued as something, it's just our mouths being lazy.

1509
01:28:37,240 --> 01:28:40,840
And especially the American palate is very, very, very lazy.

1510
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:45,640
Um, I mean, you can even hear it in a more like country and rural dialects where people

1511
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:48,920
are used to having chewing tobacco in front of their teeth and you can hear them talking

1512
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:49,920
around it.

1513
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:54,760
Um, the new England accents in general are so much more like English and British still

1514
01:28:54,760 --> 01:28:55,760
we non-rhotic.

1515
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:59,960
We lose our Rs at the end of our sentences and the end of our words.

1516
01:28:59,960 --> 01:29:01,520
And so it's our words.

1517
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:02,520
Yeah.

1518
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:05,480
I've gotten to the point where I can say like, well, I have to go out to the car and get

1519
01:29:05,480 --> 01:29:08,960
something and that's slightly different than what I would say in South Carolina, which

1520
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:10,440
is I have to go to the car.

1521
01:29:10,440 --> 01:29:11,440
Yeah.

1522
01:29:11,440 --> 01:29:14,320
And it's, you know, it's just sitting in a totally different place in your mouth and

1523
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:19,000
you can straight up just if you're with somebody for long enough or in like the tech community,

1524
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:22,960
I'm sure has like a totally different, I know laws like that.

1525
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:27,600
Like there's, there's words that are the same that are pronounced the same, means something

1526
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:28,600
different.

1527
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:31,800
There are words that are emphatically used differently.

1528
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:33,080
It's just, it's so cool.

1529
01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:37,800
And it's one of the things that like, well, they say that it's linguistics is the only

1530
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:42,720
science that everybody thinks they're an expert on because when you're using a language, it

1531
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:43,720
feels very intimate to you.

1532
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:48,040
And it feels like when it's not being used the same way, it's being used wrong.

1533
01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:51,920
But in reality, it's like watching like a tide pool where if you see something that's

1534
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:53,760
not, you're like, oh shit, that's weird.

1535
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:56,640
You're not going to pull it out and go like, okay, get out of here.

1536
01:29:56,640 --> 01:29:59,000
Like you're going to look at it and be like, this is interesting.

1537
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:00,320
This is fascinating.

1538
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:02,280
This fish I haven't seen before in this reef.

1539
01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:03,880
Oh my God, get it away from me.

1540
01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:05,560
Like, no, you're going to be like, this is weird.

1541
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:06,560
What does this mean?

1542
01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:08,120
What are the ramifications?

1543
01:30:08,120 --> 01:30:11,120
And I just wish, I wish more people dealt with language that way, especially because

1544
01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:17,060
so many people have like home languages that they've constructed with their, their siblings

1545
01:30:17,060 --> 01:30:21,880
or their partners or something like that, just from, from shortening words from like

1546
01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:22,880
inside jokes.

1547
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:28,280
I, at one point I heard a woman yell at her Rottweiler and because it was chasing ducks

1548
01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:31,720
on the beach and she said, you're not going to get them, Linda.

1549
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:36,240
So now every Rottweiler that I see is Linda to me specifically.

1550
01:30:36,240 --> 01:30:40,160
So if I say, oh my God, it's a Linda, you know that that's what you're going to be seeing.

1551
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:44,600
And so it's stuff like that, that it's just, it's not even necessarily quicker.

1552
01:30:44,600 --> 01:30:49,560
I guess maybe it's one syllable shorter, but it's just for being a personal thing, you

1553
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:50,560
know?

1554
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:53,200
And I drink a lot of seltzer water, but I just say, seltzy.

1555
01:30:53,200 --> 01:30:54,200
Oh my God.

1556
01:30:54,200 --> 01:30:55,200
It's just my seltzy.

1557
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:56,200
That's all.

1558
01:30:56,200 --> 01:31:00,600
Which is going to be probably the most controversial thing that I've said on here.

1559
01:31:00,600 --> 01:31:05,440
Cause people either really like seltzer water or they absolutely hate seltzer water.

1560
01:31:05,440 --> 01:31:06,440
Wow.

1561
01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:10,240
You've just really, I really divided, completely divided the audience.

1562
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:14,080
Cause some people they're expecting sugar in it, but it's not.

1563
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:16,440
It's just, it's just water with a little kiss.

1564
01:31:16,440 --> 01:31:18,920
It's a little water that kisses you.

1565
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:19,920
Yeah.

1566
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:20,920
So delicate.

1567
01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:21,920
Exactly.

1568
01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:22,920
That's what I'm saying.

1569
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,520
Like, but no, I'll fight to the death about it.

1570
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:26,520
Yeah.

1571
01:31:26,520 --> 01:31:27,520
Seltzy.

1572
01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:29,600
Um, our cats are ham sandwich and radio.

1573
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:30,600
Hammy is just Hammy.

1574
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:31,600
Yeah.

1575
01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:32,600
Radio.

1576
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:33,600
We'll just call it radio.

1577
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:34,600
Ham radio.

1578
01:31:34,600 --> 01:31:35,600
Radio.

1579
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:36,600
Yeah.

1580
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:37,600
I didn't even mean to do that originally.

1581
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:40,080
We actually, we got radio first and then Hammy came in.

1582
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:41,080
It's a ham radio.

1583
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:42,080
Yeah.

1584
01:31:42,080 --> 01:31:43,080
That to me is the best.

1585
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:44,080
Exactly.

1586
01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:49,080
Um, I'm afraid we're running out of time.

1587
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:52,800
I know I could talk to you forever.

1588
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:53,800
We're going to go get lunch though.

1589
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:54,800
Yeah, I know.

1590
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:58,400
I mean like, look, and we're going to go and do photos and it's going to be great.

1591
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:01,120
But can I just say I've loved chatting to you.

1592
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:02,120
This is so much fun.

1593
01:32:02,120 --> 01:32:03,120
I'm going to annoy you.

1594
01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:04,920
You came all the way out here.

1595
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:05,920
I know.

1596
01:32:05,920 --> 01:32:08,800
Well, I'm going to come out again at some point and then I'll annoy you again.

1597
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:09,800
Please.

1598
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,760
Because yeah, then we'll go and do a big adventure.

1599
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:17,440
When you're not going into surgery, trying to aim it away from a surgery.

1600
01:32:17,440 --> 01:32:20,000
Um, but no, Sarah, where can people find you on the internet?

1601
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:21,000
Where can they stalk you?

1602
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:26,520
So right now, before I implode it from the ground up, before I hit the demolition Instagram

1603
01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:28,800
of coin swallow there.

1604
01:32:28,800 --> 01:32:34,680
And if you want to stare at Echo versus slate where darker further down is listed and you

1605
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:36,680
can see my little icon for it.

1606
01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:41,400
And you could see my little description that is on, I believe just echo verse.com.

1607
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:43,640
You're the production company that I'm working with.

1608
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:48,320
Um, and other than that, you'll have to chase me down yourself.

1609
01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:50,400
You'll have to find me.

1610
01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:51,400
You'll have to sniff me out.

1611
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:52,400
God, that sounds horrible.

1612
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:56,520
It makes you sound like really ominous of just like, fine.

1613
01:32:56,520 --> 01:32:57,520
I'm fast too.

1614
01:32:57,520 --> 01:32:58,520
Yeah.

1615
01:32:58,520 --> 01:32:59,520
Yeah.

1616
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:00,520
Yeah.

1617
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:04,040
You're like, you're like that crab walk, like, you know, just like, you'll see me and then

1618
01:33:04,040 --> 01:33:05,040
I'm gone.

1619
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:08,960
I'm just getting Toy Story in the back of my head where it's like that scene where all

1620
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:13,920
the like disformed toys come out and like, I'm like, Oh, you're like the one with the

1621
01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:15,640
baby head doll and the spider legs.

1622
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:17,600
I have way more appendages than it looks like.

1623
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:18,600
Yeah.

1624
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:19,600
You hide it well.

1625
01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:20,600
It's the big sweater.

1626
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:21,600
Yeah, I know.

1627
01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:23,920
You're like, I mean, they can see it because it's like being filmed, but also I love the

1628
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:28,360
idea because if no one sees this film version, they'll just imagine you as a giant spider

1629
01:33:28,360 --> 01:33:29,360
creature.

1630
01:33:29,360 --> 01:33:30,360
Which is great.

1631
01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:31,360
It's appropriate.

1632
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:32,360
Feminine horror.

1633
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:33,360
We got it.

1634
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:34,360
We looped back.

1635
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:35,360
It worked.

1636
01:33:35,360 --> 01:33:36,360
So good.

1637
01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:37,880
Um, I've loved chatting you.

1638
01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:39,160
Thank you so much for coming on.

1639
01:33:39,160 --> 01:33:40,160
Thank you.

1640
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:43,720
And if you want to go and check out more episodes of Things We Do, you can check them out on

1641
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:44,720
Apple and Spotify.

1642
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:47,440
I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you later.

1643
01:33:47,440 --> 01:33:48,440
Goodbye!

1644
01:33:48,440 --> 01:34:12,100
BOO!