This is The Things We Do podcast, a podcast about film, life, television, culture, mental
health and all that fun jazzy stuff.
Today I've got my special guest and friend, Rain Sullivan.
Hi.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for coming on.
Now, Rain, first question, first and foremost question.
I'm going to get you to tell the internet, the wonderful ears, the wonderful eyes open
to the whole world.
The eyes, I think mostly ears, the wonderful ears to the world, who you are and what you
do.
I'm Rain and I write sci-fi, fantasy, novels and short stories.
Yep.
That's your whole...
That's my whole thing.
I mean, I love that short brief.
Where did it start?
Where did it manifest for you?
I've had the idea to write mostly fantasy and then it kind of evolved into sci-fi since
I was 17.
I got really into reading and wanted to create stories and they were just starting to like
come alive in my head.
I suppressed that for a really long time.
Went to school for pre-med and kind of followed that track for a while until I just kind of
cracked and had to write this story down.
I had one story that was just kind of rolling around in the back of my head and I was like,
I have to give it at least like a solid try.
I have to get it on the page.
There's a lot of fighting that still between what you should be doing versus what you want
to be doing.
Eventually, after some family drama stuff, I was like, you know what?
Life's too short.
I'm diving in.
I think 2019, I started writing my first novel and I finished it in about a year and then
now I've got five that I'm juggling and I'm editing them and bouncing back and forth between
writing books and submitting short stories and all that jazz to hopefully get published
and all that.
Oh my God.
So you just went, I'm going to quit med and become a writer.
Yeah.
One that's more profitable.
I had these ideas of what it was going to be like to maybe be a doctor.
I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do and I worked in a hospital.
It was okay.
In short, I just didn't feel like anything I did really mattered and there's no passion
to do that work.
I worked in physical therapy a little bit and I liked that better working with people
a little bit more because when I worked in a hospital prior to, I was working mostly
in a lab.
I was centrifuging blood samples.
Not working with patients.
Fresh out of college, you get to spin blood.
I had two passings in the family and it was just like, what am I doing?
Doing all these things that I don't care about really.
It broke my heart a little bit that those two people wouldn't get to see these stories
that I had.
If I am going to write them, I already have two people on my list who won't get to read
them.
I don't want that list to get longer and I don't want to sound so morbid but be on that
list.
I don't want to live my life and not have given these stories a shot.
That came out as something very macabre and then made it really quite nice.
There is a theme in my writing that pops up a lot with learning to live with loss and
finding that balance between letting go and never, ever letting go that has shown up not
in every story but at least in every novel.
It's always in the background a little bit.
I think they are very tied.
Like grief and everything.
That's really interesting to explore as well as human beings because we go into this ideology
when you look at it through a medical lens that's very clinical.
Human life is A to B and then we die and just the next stage keeps rolling.
It's interesting that you talk about almost legacy and storytelling and all that because
did you feel as a kid that you were like I needed to leave an imprint or a legacy on
things?
I think so.
Even when I was younger and in high school, I had all these dreams that were not the dreams
I told people.
Especially if I had a math science brain.
I did really well in those kinds of classes and not actually in English.
It was funny because I had this pull to go into something creative.
From the get go, I wanted to do theater.
I told some of my closest friends I want to be a director.
I had all these ideas about telling stories in some way, shape, or form.
And choreography.
I was a gymnast for a long time and I would choreograph all my friends' routines.
Just liked creating stuff.
But the thing I would tell people is I'm good at math and science so I'm probably going
to study math and science and go that path.
My dad was in the science field so it made sense.
That was the smart choice.
I don't know where I was going with that.
I kind of just lost it.
No, I like it.
Did you feel like it was just the thing you needed to do?
Go into that work style and everything?
When I started writing?
No.
With your dad being in the science field, was it just felt like you needed to be in
some sort of scientific or medicinal capacity?
Yeah, I think there was a combination of things going on.
One, that's what I kind of had a knack for.
So when you're not doing great in certain classes and you're doing really well in others,
you're like, oh well, screw the classes that I suck at and I'm killing it with math and
chemistry and that kind of stuff.
So clearly that's the direction that makes more sense for me.
There's a little bit of that.
My dad was one of seven, so pick the smart career and if you get a degree in chemistry
or something along those lines, you're going to be able to make a career out of that.
Whereas if you get a degree in creative writing, good luck.
So there's a little bit of definitely push.
But then also, sorry, we're going in a real morbid direction, but both my parents got
brain cancer about a year apart from each other.
And so my mom got it when I was in high school.
Hers was operable.
On the day of my high school graduation, she got surgery and it was removed.
There's been some funky glitches with movement of one of her hands, but otherwise she's great,
recovered wonderfully.
Ten months later, I was in college and my dad gets brain cancer and it's inoperable.
So it's a very different beast, chemo radiation track.
And so I think that also was part of the push to OC, I'm meant to be a doctor, I'm meant
to be a doctor, do the doctor thing, do the doctor thing.
It never really made me happy, but you get a lot of praise for landing in that box.
So it's a really comfortable box to sit in, especially if you aren't flunking those classes.
So you're like, it's coming from all directions, what you should be doing, what people kind
of expect.
And then you get praise from your friends' parents, your friends who are going into fashion
design, they're like, oh God.
You're the kid who's going to be the doctor, which didn't happen, by the way.
I mean, that's also like, it goes from one giant shift, doesn't it?
Because I think when people go into medicine or when they go into it, it's normally like
a savior complex.
And I think it didn't sound like that from your perspective, it was just something you
were good at.
And then you were just like, everyone just wants you to stay in that box rather than
you feeling like that box actually suits you.
Yeah.
It was like the savior complex was there.
Like I was expecting it, I wanted to feel that way really badly.
I kept waiting to be like, see, if I do these things, I could literally be tackling the
issue that attacked my family, right?
Like there's kind of this almost, it feels like there should be this full circle moment
there and it just wasn't connecting.
It's like no matter what I do, this circle is not coming full circle, it just wasn't
happening.
I just was so emotionally and mentally drained when I worked at the hospital.
I hated it, absolutely hated it.
And then even when I pivoted to working more like environmental science and then working
in physical therapy, it was like these pivots are better, but they're still not right.
All I can think about are these stories.
And I think that that's actually what completed the story, or sorry, the circle.
There's a lot of metaphors going on right now.
I mean, look, it's interesting because this isn't the best stories built out of tragedy
or like some sort of real life grief.
I mean, for me, that's how this story came up because I mean, the story that I'm working
on now, even putting final touches on and hope to query very soon, it's based all on
that.
You're finding out your dad has cancer and I mean, it has a different twist because it's
not real life.
And I have dream portals, which means you have access to different worlds and you could
have, in theory, find cures.
And that's the whole basis for that story.
And that's what I mean by coming full circle.
I just wrote this different kind of conclusion because I don't think 19 year old me could
handle it.
So I don't know, it's almost like I needed to work stuff out for myself in order to be
able to help.
I feel like, and I hope that this story will help other people who are going through it.
And I've had a couple of readers who, you know, different versions, same story of my
mom's going through cancer treatment now and this story really resonated with me and stuff
like that.
So I think it did come full circle and it's just in a very, very different way.
I love that though.
It's like you're helping people through other means rather than it being through the mean
that initially everyone expected you to help them.
It's come through like a completely different narrative almost because yeah, like I always
think that especially with parents and the people that bring you up in this world whenever
that like something breaks in them or something goes wrong, you're like automatic, like ideology
is like to freak out and you know, be like, well, the person who is meant to be immortal
and live forever is now suddenly not going to be able to do that.
They're going to have to go through like treatment and everything or they might pass away.
And you know, like I think it's more common than not to have, you know, like for people
lose parents, you know, and I think that's kind of the realization.
It's like how lucky some people are to still have them around and then like versus others.
And I think like particularly people, we don't talk about grief and like especially when
it's like parents because we talk about extended like family members, like grandparents and
you know, aunts and uncles and all that.
But when it comes to our own immediate family and struggling with like how like, you know,
dysfunctional that is or like how like unstable I can be, I think that's the thing that, you
know, we translate grief into just windshields blocked, everything's fine, rose colored glasses.
Like do you think that now, you know, being the age that you are, do you think you have
much more like, you know, I want to say clinical view of grief due to writing or is it very
much like, are still very emotional?
It's definitely become a little more clinical, you know, to use that word.
Yeah, because when I started writing, I was, you know, 24 now I'm 29 and I'm on draft
12 of this story.
I pray to God it is the end.
And it's so different because in that first draft, which to any writers out there, just
let your first draft be a messy hodgepodge because you're going to learn so much by getting
all those ideas out on paper.
But it is messy.
And when I go back and I look at it and I'm like, I was still not not that you're ever
done dealing with grief, but I was in the thick of it because I at 19 when I lost my
dad, I shut down, like I just turned off the emotion as much as I could and plowed ahead,
like okay, keep going, keep marching along.
And clearly when I was 24, it's when I lost my grandfather.
And then that was that was kind of the push.
That was that like tipping point.
And I could just see it like all it all poured out.
And now that I've been playing with this story on and off, you know, other stories, whatnot,
for five years, it's like, I can see the growth and the development and the under like the
understanding of grief, because there's definitely you're playing this tug of war so much when
you lose people of like, should I be letting them go?
Should I not like I don't want to let go?
Oh, God, it feels awful to let go.
Right.
Like when you're six months out and you're having a great time, suddenly feel guilty
for enjoying your own life.
Right.
And so you're constantly on this like little tug of war.
And at some point, you realize like it's not there's you're not going to pick one end of
that that spectrum.
You're going to you got to get comfortable being uncomfortable somewhere in the middle.
And you're going to tip a little from the middle, left or right, you know, depending
on the day.
And then but you're never going to it's not it's not fixed.
Yeah, it's just you grow, you evolve.
And now that's part of you.
And so I do think that's what kind of happened.
And now it's fun because I get to write it.
You know, my main character is 21 and losing her father.
And I get to write it with this.
OK, I know, you know, from like a 29 year old and I've dealt with this to some degree.
Right.
Like I said, you're never really done.
But I've like stepped back and I can look at my character and plop them back into what
it is to be that technically still a kid brain.
Right.
Like you're 21, you're not developed mentally and you're dealing with these big, scary thoughts.
Like you said, like you just you don't think about losing a parent until it starts to happen.
Right.
And definitely being able to step back and now write it.
And I can write that character like very raw without it necessarily touching my own hurt,
my own grief.
Now, it's like this like separation of self from from story.
Yeah.
Which I think is always like an interesting factor because, you know, when you can step
back from your own personal grief and then sort of like projected into a character and
make them have their own version of like coping mechanisms and everything.
And I think it's also like the concept of like, you know, we're in an era where mental
health is so much better.
And, you know, we're still working on a lot of people like working on things that we never
talked about as kids.
Like, you know, there wasn't conversation flying around being like, how are you doing?
Like, you know, a lot of it was just like, you know, like the clinical they're gone now
or, you know, everything like that.
Or they're in a better place or, you know, like and, you know, like things like that
I get from a kid's perspective because you want to like not alienate them.
You want to make them happy.
But, you know, as an adult, it's just it's just fucking annoying.
The worst one is it'll get better with time.
Yeah.
Thank you, Susan.
Will it?
It doesn't feel like it right now, but you're logically, you know, you know, it will.
Oh, I think it's also like, you know, how, how do we sort of cope with grief?
How do we cope with anything?
And I think a lot of the time we shut down, like, you know, a lot of the coping mechanism
is to not feel and to push through.
And I remember, like, I think, I don't know if this was like your childhood, but you know,
like particularly when family members would pass away, like I would just suddenly go into
making sure everyone else is okay.
Like, you know, I would just be the one because everyone else is crying around me and I'm
like, oh, I got to, I got to do the managing of everyone else because I don't, they're
all going to fall apart.
And so there was a little bit of Saviour Complex that developed in my youth based on that,
which didn't really help as I got into adult years.
Like, you know, because that becomes like, just if people have problems, you help them,
you try and fix them for them.
And I think like it was something very interesting that one of my therapists said, which was,
you know, you just can't, like there's so many things, like, as we talk about grief,
that you can't really fix.
Like you've got this long echo chamber of like grief that clings onto you.
And it's just about coping every day because our lives don't really, you never stop grieving.
Like you never stop missing someone or you know, missing a pet, missing a person.
Like, you never really stop.
But it just, it does lessen because it goes into the back of your head rather than it
being the forefront of your mind, unless you're constantly bringing it to it.
But you know, like I remember a few years ago, my dad was diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis,
which basically means eventually, like he was like, I know this is the thing that's
going to get me in the end.
Like it's going to be the thing that kills me.
And he was very calm about it.
Like he, man, he's very happy still, like very calm, but he's just like, and every time
I hear him cough, I'm like, oh God, that's the cough of death.
Like, you know, that's the thing that's going to eventually get him.
And like he's 68 now.
So I'm like, I'm also sort of like partially grateful that I've had such a long life with
him because I'm like, I know people who obviously didn't have that.
And so there's always a sort of thing of being grateful because when that moment happens,
and for someone who grew up, growing up, he did not cope well with death.
He, knowing his own mortality is he just went, yep, I'm going to do life.
Like there's nothing really going to stop me.
And I think it was sort of like such a surprising role model to expect out of like someone who
can't deal with grief very well, because it was like, and it sort of made my mum kind
of go into this other form where she's more worried about him than he's worried about
himself.
Like he's just like, as long as I'm happy and I get to see, you know, my grandchildren
and I get to have a lot, you know, like have these little milestones that he's really thinking
about little milestones rather than big long milestones now.
I think that makes him like it a little bit easier if his health starts to decline.
But you know, it is a thing because like, I don't know, a lot of my family members,
when they did pass away, there was like five years of just decline in health.
And it just felt long and dragged out.
Like my gran was the same.
She was four years before she passed away.
It was dragged health problems.
And my aunt was like four or five years of just like being in and out of hospital.
And I was like, you know, I sort of am grateful that my dad's not to that point yet.
But having friends who are already like at our age getting diagnosed with cancer, getting
diagnosed with a bunch of different things, I'm also hyper aware that I'm like, life can
just go.
Like you are not like we are not tethered to this world very quick, like for very long.
Yeah, I think I think that with with both my parents getting sick in different ways
so quick, like one, two, that it's just like that sort of like focus the lens a little
bit on that.
And then my grandfather was a few years later.
And something about that too, right?
You have your grandparents outliving your own parents and just like this things like
snapped into focus.
But like, it doesn't matter if it makes me enough money.
It doesn't matter if I make it, you know, all this kind of all those big scary thoughts
that, you know, at 21 or 22 felt so crippling.
Like I just have to live life and do the things that bring me joy and make me feel like, like,
oh, yeah, this is what it this is why I'm here.
I feel like I lost the thread.
No, I love that.
I love it.
No, I just I really agree with you.
I think that's like the thing that happened to me.
It was like, you know, knowing my dad, you know, and especially when my aunt passed away,
I was like, well, these are the things that make them proud.
They didn't want me to have like careers that would just pay heaps.
Like they wanted me to do the things that I loved.
So I'd rather do those.
And you know, I think that was a massive discussion.
And it's why I quit full time work like, you know, it's it's good like to live, live the
life that you want to live and not sort of dictate it through, you know, especially when
you lose people that you care about.
You're like, OK, well, how would they want to see me happy?
Are they did they die knowing I was happy or did they die seeing the version of me which
isn't happy doing this thing repetitively?
And you know, do I want to spend a hundred hours a week doing the thing that I actually
love?
Oh, yeah.
And I think it's funny because, you know, my dad was so he's he's kind of a goofball,
but but was so in his mind, you know, I think honestly being one of seven and with a single
mom, he was so follow the track that's going to guarantee you like the income, the security,
the good job, because I think he's he lived so close to that line of not being able to
support himself.
And you know, he was on the on that path.
Right.
He went to college, did all the things, checked all the boxes and brought himself out of poverty.
And so I think there was a little bit of don't risk it all now.
Like, you know, you're very lucky to I was, you know, not on the poverty line.
You know, growing up where he was.
And so I think there was a little bit of that push.
And then at the same time, I did I did athletics and sports and stuff growing up.
Like my dad was so happy when I was happy after, you know, gymnastics practice.
And he'd always be like, how was gymnastics today?
And I would go on and on and on in the car about what I got to do that day.
You know, we did flips into the pit and whatnot.
And so like my dad was, I think, honestly, the most happy when we were happy.
And then there's this fear because which parents have for their kids, you know, they want them
to do well and survive well.
This fear that if I went the wrong direction, I would struggle.
Right.
So I get that, too.
And I think there's I definitely offer him a lot of grace with that because because
I get it.
You want to you want to keep your kids safe.
You want them to go on a path that you think makes more sense.
Right.
But at the end of the day, I think he would have wanted me to be happy.
And I don't know.
I like I don't believe in much.
I don't believe in all the like above above the world place and below the world place.
But I there's this part of me that's like, I kind of feel like people aren't ever really
gone.
No.
You know, and I'm like, I hope in some weird, quirky, nonphysical way, my dad can read my
book.
And I think he would really enjoy it.
I love that.
I think it's like I love that theory because, you know, you've got like the idea that we're
energy and you know, like whether you're religious or not, like out there listening.
But I do like the idea that we are energy like forming and like, you know, we're made
of electrons and you know, all these things that you know, and billions of microorganisms
that run through our skin.
And if you get rid of them, a lot of it, you will die.
Like they make you very healthy.
They're good.
And it's amazing, like, you know, then there's sort of like this ideology that people get
scared of that.
And I'm like, no, these are good, like microorganisms because they help keep you alive.
They keep your blood normal.
They're just living on you.
And that's very normal.
Like, you know, we are a giant planet to them.
But it is also interesting because once we're in the ground, like the body crumbles, the
only thing that's left is bones and some material depending on how it degrades.
And that's it.
Like, you know, and I think the idea that energy, you know, we're given back to in some
form and it goes elsewhere.
And you know, I always like to imagine that, you know, like my family is still, you know,
watching over.
I don't ever think it's the pearly gates.
I love the idea.
Yeah, I love the idea of pearly gates more for a storytelling perspective than actually
a real life because I would just hate to go to a place with pearly gates.
I was just like, this is not...
Here's your wings.
Yeah, I don't want wings.
I want like little like bat wings.
Like that's how I'm like, but I don't want to go to hell.
Like there's a choice.
Yeah, yeah, do you want the scaly wings or the little feathery ones?
Yeah.
Well, it's like reading like Dante's Inferno of like the many stages of hell.
And I'm like, no, I don't want wings.
Count me out.
But I do think like, you know, writing stories about, you know, human beings, especially
in like fantasy and like sci-fi and sort of like all these like different genres.
Isn't that like, it's kind of like the bee's knees, isn't it?
It's the weird like, why?
Because you're a very nerdy person.
Like, you know, like, was that always the case?
Like, you know, were you always like attracted to really nerdy things growing up?
I definitely found kind of safety in some of the nerdy things.
Like math is dependable.
Science is dependable.
But I did just love like, I'm kind of a nature kid.
I love to run around outside.
We'd go camping a lot.
Climb trees barefoot, you know, that whole thing.
My name is literally Rain.
And so I think kind of leaning into that, but I definitely got, I mean, like I said,
the whole like one of the story that I'm working on right now, the concept behind it is that
there's like multiple dimensions.
And there is in between the dimensions, there is yet another dimension, the dream dimension.
So certain people can access it.
And there's other ways other people can get other people to access it.
But it's a in the book, I literally call it a nearly non physical space.
And there's like a meeting of the minds in this space.
And so though we have this character who's like hopping between worlds in hopes of finding
a cure for her father, it's a hereditary trait to be able to access the stream dimension.
And so you get to explore that funky little blip in science, right?
Because you can be sure about something to 99.99%.
You know, like when you run a test and you make a claim about how well I'm making something
up, but like, let's how well like a drug works, like right drug efficacy, you could be like,
oh, 95%.
95% of the time, that's pretty darn good.
And yet there's this like 5% window of uncertainty, right?
And that kind of exists.
That's the beauty of science is that there's always this little room to like little, little
sliver you can wiggle through.
And suddenly like break open all the unknown, right?
And I think, I think my, you know, I'm losing my father brain at the time needed to dive
into the unknown.
And I did not grow up religious and grew up very, you know, yes, with energies and spirituality
a little bit with like, we, you know, we live our lives and our bodies go back and we help
feed the earth very, you know, Lion King, circle of life vibes.
And but there's this idea of like, I don't really, it's got to be this way.
You can't lose someone, right?
And we know that they exist in your memory.
And then they address, I mean, I'm a pretty vivid dreamer.
So like my dad shows up in my dreams quite often.
And I, and I ended up kind of putting these ideas together of like, there's gotta be this,
there's something.
So I'm not going to call it like a pearly gate kind of deal, but why not a dream dimension
with portals in it and, you know, make it fun.
But I don't know, I love this idea that there's still access to the people that you've lost
because you're an amalgamation of every experience you have.
And so you have these people around you and they, they tell you things and they share
their favorite songs with you.
And that time you got stuck in a ditch on the side of the road.
Like, you know, you have all these experiences that you get to live through with people and
those, those like live in you.
They're part of your, your makeup.
Right.
And so if they exist there, are they ever really gone?
Like, you know, you start playing this little, this little game and yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
I mean, like it's so true to think it's there anyone actually gone fully, especially, and
yeah.
And you just made me think of the X-Files.
I don't know why.
Cause the scene, yeah, there's a scene with like Dana Scully, her dad dies and then she
keeps seeing him in her dreams for like, and I, I love that idea that like, you know, people
come back in, in your dreams.
I mean, it's like the human.
So I think there's like a study of something as well with the human brain, which is when
you're asleep, your brain will recognize faces.
So it will call it, gather all the information, whether you are aware of it or not, and then
dump it all onto the back of like the, the neurons and like store all these random faces
and you're like, I don't know this face.
Where did this face come from?
And vice versa, but it's all people you've seen, like at some point in your life or faces
that sort of merge into one another to create a similar face.
But I think there's also the study of like the mind, like with memories recreates every
time.
Like there's like, it's never the original memory.
It's like you're extracting like this thought and it's recreating the memory from scratch.
Like you're repainting the picture.
Yeah.
I feel like I've heard of it.
It might be like, I probably read different things, but I feel like I've heard something
along those lines.
It is so interesting.
I was actually talking to my cousin the other day and right, we lost our grandfather and
she's like, I was remembering your wedding and I just pictured Opa there.
And I was, I had to remind myself he wasn't actually there.
Right.
And then I'm, I'm, I know I do that too.
Suddenly, like I will write people into memories where it's like, Oh, that person wasn't actually
there, but they're a loved one.
Right.
So you, you rewrite them into the memory.
I think, I think it's kind of brilliant.
It's like your brain's like, Oh, you can't, you don't like that.
They weren't there.
Cool.
Let's rewrite it because why not?
Yeah.
You can pull them in and yeah, I don't know.
It's like a superpower.
I think it's a great superpower because especially when you've got people like really like in
your life and I've noticed that even like being married, like suddenly you're automatically
putting your partner into literally everything you've done, even when you were young and
you're like, but you weren't there.
Like there was no possible way I knew you back then.
So why are you there?
But that's like what your brain does because the moment like someone's important to you,
it kind of slots them in to where you want them in the narrative.
And I can understand why, like when you get older and you hear people talk about memories
and like some people are fantastic or remembering every specific data and then others just go,
oh, now were you there?
Yeah.
I can't.
I think you were there.
Like, and you're like, I'm not, I wasn't there at all.
I'm going to be that old person.
I'm pretty sure you were.
Yeah.
It's like forever in here.
But I mean, like, you know, when you were young, let's take you back in time to little
you and just to watch our spirit.
Because you have a brother.
I have two.
You have two brothers.
Yeah.
And you're the youngest or?
I'm in the middle.
Oh, you're a middle child.
Yeah.
Was that a fun time?
It sounds kind of almost similar.
Are you one of two?
I'm one of, yeah, I'm one of just me and my brother.
So yeah.
Are you the younger one?
I am the younger.
Interesting.
Because actually what you said before about kind of playing like the mediator on everybody's
emotions, I felt like that's kind of the, the role I ended up playing.
I was like, oh, I'll be the middle of the bridge.
Maybe it's the second child syndrome.
Maybe it's like a child syndrome.
I don't know.
But it's also interesting, I think, being the only girl, because I had such different
relationships with my brothers because my older brother was super nerdy.
And we got on in a very like, oh, we read these books and we share bookish things.
And you're smart.
And I'm trying to be smart, right?
Because I'm three years younger and trying to pretend I know what's going on.
And then my younger brother, who's three years younger, like we were just goofballs and I
was like, oh, you're fun to play with because you'll actually like, if I want to play with
dolls or something, he didn't care, right?
His little kid, it's just fun.
And so I got to like bounce around between relationships.
But yeah, you definitely to become the little like, the little fixer, you know, anytime
someone's unhappy, you're trying to constantly bring everybody back down to even keel, you
know?
I mean, was it was it also weird, you know, like being the only girl because it's like,
you know, was there like different pressures that were put on you versus like your brothers?
Not really.
I think my parents, they were pretty very liberal.
They're very like, you know, they're they wanted to be hippies.
They're a little behind the times, but they just like played along and pretended they
were in the hippie era.
And you know, they were very you guys get to do, you know, if you're into sports or
you're into whatever, like we'll try to help you do whatever you enjoy doing.
So I didn't actually mind it, but I do think it was it kind of naturally dictated some
of the relationship stuff because like my older brother would never probably pick on
me the way maybe an older sister would, you know, like he was never like physically rough
with me or anything like that.
And I wonder if that's because I was a girl.
Possibly.
He's also just a big teddy bear.
So like, so am I just been him?
I don't know.
I do.
Yeah, it's it's always like, because me and my brother fought not like a lot, but we used
to we used to fight like physically sometimes, which always seems surreal now because it's
like such a different person.
But yeah, like I used to like he was very he kept himself.
So I was like my when we were both sort of like between like me being a kid and like
him just before he kind of became a teenager, we were very close.
And then the moment he became a teenager, like it was like, I've got cool friends and
I don't want to be hanging with my dorky little brother.
You know, it's like that sort of like instigator.
And he was off dating and trying to date people.
I was not really interested in that.
So I was like, oh, yeah, whatever.
Like, you know, I want to play games and, you know, no doubt and enjoy things.
So I was like the shift.
And I think it's always like, like, we're a lot closer now than we used to be.
But, you know, I also always have, you know, have an arm's length relationship with, you
know, like the by immediate family, because I think it's like, you know, it's I've always
been the one who does a lot and likes doing things.
And therefore, it's like easy to just be like, OK, well, you know, because they get if I
don't report in like which which sounds like a weird thing, but they just kind of go, what's
happening?
And but every time like we'd be doing something, I would just be like, why are you doing that?
Like, why don't you just slow down and do something normal?
And I was like never able to sit still and do one thing.
I had to do like 20 things at once and, you know, have a very interesting life, which
was always like because I like playing.
I liked doing things.
And that was like how my brain just like gathered the information.
And I sort of see it with like, you know, how like parenting is done, especially when
you have like a kid on the spectrum, like how like good versus bad is.
And back in the 90s, I think like my parents did the best because there was no information
like there wasn't the Internet where you could, you know, research a bunch of stuff and try
and work out what was going on.
They sort of like had a book and that was as far as their knowledge got.
So they were like, here's what the doctors have given us.
We're going to work off that.
Like and I think that kind of made it.
But then it's also like, you know, like out of that from me going to hospital so much
like my brother developed hypochondria, you know, like and OCD and a whole bunch of other
things that I think at the time my parents didn't think much of until it manifested.
And they just kind of let it fester until it was like, oh, OK, that actually is a problem.
And it's not just like him overreacting to like concerns.
So I think there's always like it's the balancing act of when you've got a child that needs
a lot of attention at like certain points in their life, but spread that love and like
attention equally, which is the hard thing.
So hard.
I think, you know, my brother, he was like my older brother, he was like so naturally
just like great at school, perfect grades, that whole thing.
And I was OK, you know, like not bad at school.
But you know, I felt like I had to like try harder and it just came so naturally to him.
And that could just be that's how it felt.
And I might not be right.
But I was heavily into sports.
I did gymnastics from age like six through college.
So that's like I was just like, oh, drop off at the gym.
Like that was, you know, so I think my parents were into it for me for my sake.
But they weren't the parents that were there watching, you know.
And then my little brother, I think he's the one that unfortunately like kind of traded
between my older brother and my little brother between like whose whose things were slipping
through the cracks.
I think honestly, sports was my like saving grace because I had a team, I had a coach.
You kind of get like a pseudo family on the side that's, you know, who you're venting
to, who's quasi parenting you.
But yeah, it's so tough.
You know, because my older brother, you know, he went through like a kind of depressive
thing around like the end of his high school.
I think I noticed it and actually went to my school counselor about it because I was
worried about him.
And that's how my mom got clued in because then the school counselor went to other school
counselor and taught me, you know, and all of a sudden she's like, how is suddenly a
problem and you get these.
So but I mean, I also can't imagine having three kids, you know, in three different schools
and balancing all that.
But yeah, it's tough.
Yeah.
I mean, like it's also just kind of like the thing of parenting when you've got multiple
kids because it's not easy.
Well, I think it's also like, you know, social behavior and everything is and depression
like, you know, don't go hand in hand always.
Like you can be do really well in grades and not be happy.
Like, you know, like and it's like a chemical imbalance.
I think we have a much better like structure of it now than we were kids, which like you
can just feel sad.
Like you know, and I do think like, you know, it was like always makes me laugh, particularly
from my mom's generation where she just goes, oh, your generation just there's too much
worrying, there's too much stress, there's too much like feeling concerned.
Like you know, back in back in my day, no one was like back in your day, everyone just
like bottled it up and didn't let it because it was postwar.
Like everyone was just like you were the boomer children.
So you came out of like parents who were dealing with World War One and World War Two and you
know, like, you know, the Cold War eras and all that.
And so there was a huge concern, like about safety words versus now, like, you know, they
talk about how safe it is to, you know, to live now.
But I'm like, it's still kind of like, there's still a lot of questionable like you.
I mean, I think it's statistically safer, right?
But we're going to get into a new topic now because it's probably statistically safer.
And I would fact check that I don't actually know.
But I would imagine.
But you're getting so much negative input from external sources, right?
So I mean, when you turn if you turn on the news, it's what 99% negative.
It's just if there's nothing, it's not like, oh, and local woman saved cat from tree and
I'm like, oh, where's that story?
Like those, it's just that's you're not getting the positive.
Often you're either getting negative news.
I feel like on social media, there's lots of like, I mean, I don't have Facebook anymore,
really, but I know there's a lot of like propaganda stuff on there and then and then advertisements
and all the things you're coming up short on.
Right.
I mean, so there is a I think I do think that kind of plays into our modern mental health
crisis.
Yeah.
I think it's also like we're we're so quick to misinform ourselves with with like buzz
quick things and you know, like I blame Instagram, I blame, you know, all these things.
It's like go and find information if you want to know about the world.
It's not hard.
And I mean, like, you know, the the we talk about like, in Australia, we talk about how
safe it is, you know, since the nineties and since we banned guns and all that.
And like, people still have knives.
People still have knives.
Like the other day, there was like seven people died in a stabbing attack in like Bondi in
Sydney.
And it was just like, that still happens.
Like the amount just because you remove one thing doesn't automatically mean, you know,
that and there's there's sort of no what I find baffling a little bit is, you know, like,
we you know, and I was watching a YouTuber the other night, who's Russian, who's a very
funny like he'll I think he lives in the UK, and a very Russian funny Russian comedian,
who a lot of the time will dress up as a woman and troll people on Omegle to see if they
can work out if he's a woman or not.
But he did this.
Like he had this girl come on and go, oh, we should hate you because you're Russian.
And it's like, why?
And it's like, because Russians are bad because they're invading Ukraine.
And I was like, yes, but that doesn't mean that, like, that's like saying all Germans
are bad because they, you know, have Nazi propaganda.
Like that doesn't equate to like, the percentage that is like, you know, because there's Nazis
still exist.
Like, you know, people think that, oh, World War Two once ended, they all disappeared and
dispersed.
Like, they, I think it's like, they still happen, like, there's collectives that they
joke about all the time, which happen in, you know, pockets around the world.
But I think we look through this very distinct lens.
And I think this is also where it goes to storytelling.
And the power of storytelling is a lot of real stories, like, that are told through
like news media and all, you know, like, as you say, like, almost like a pivoting and
sad and depressive stories.
They told through a very specific way to make you hate as well.
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, and you'll get into your own channel, right?
So when I first created TikTok, which anyway, I asked my little brother, right?
Because he's Gen Z and I'm technically millennial.
I'm like, how do I use this app?
And he's like, or how do I, what did I say?
Something like, how do I, like, make this app work for me or something?
Like, how do I maybe just use the app?
And he's like, you don't use the app.
The app uses you.
And I was like, oh, my God, like, what does that mean?
And I went on it and there you're because it doesn't know you at all yet.
You haven't been on it before.
It's a lot of like political stuff and you can't always tell what you're getting handed
right away because you're getting some, some something, maybe talking about women's rights
and you're like, oh, I kind of agree with that.
And you're like, ew, it got weird and creepy.
And you're like, oh, I got him on like some conservative page.
And sorry not to diss listeners, but like, I think a lot of these listeners listen as
a liberal.
Like, okay, like back out of that real quick.
And yeah, it is.
It's so there's a lot of manipulative language use, right?
Because at first I'm like, oh, I think I think this is liberal.
Like I think I'm agreeing.
And then it's it's not.
And I've seen it on the flip side too, where you're like, what are those things called
like a stitch or something, right?
So you're getting like three seconds of a conservative video.
Someone says something just like heinous.
And then it's like, let's talk about this.
And so you're like, oh, this is a person who's going to like break this down.
Okay, that's not actually a bad thing, but you're just getting fed all this stuff until
you finally get funneled to now everything I see is pro choice, very liberal and Warren,
you know, free Gaza.
Those are all the things I see now.
I no longer see the other side because it's clearly I'm swiping away from the things that
don't work for me.
Maybe sticking around a little bit longer and then on the things that do vibe with me.
And then it like funnels you into your side and you live in your own little bubble, right?
Yeah, circulating your own stuff.
I'm circulating in the side that I feel comfortable with.
Feels all good and happy.
But someone else is circulating in the other bubble.
Yes.
And now we are enemies, like weirdly.
Yeah.
And maybe we're just neighbors.
And it's really interesting now because, and I have this problem with people now all the
time, which is no one is open to, you may like political debate or debating, which was
a huge thing before the internet where you'd go into class and you would just debate topics.
You would, you know, like it was a huge thing where you would just be like, oh, I don't
like cheese.
Why?
You know, all these fun things.
And now I feel like no one even challenges.
It's like you, you don't like cheese.
We all hate you, you know, for blah reason.
It's like, well, I think it's because the, like, I've sometimes wondered like what things
if, right.
Cause I have a very writer gram, writer focused social media presence.
So then to, if I'm going to put my political views on there, which by the way, if you read
my writing, it's in there.
Yeah.
I'm not like, I feel like fine with it there, but on the internet, on Instagram, on tech
talk, do I want to get a thousand comments that are telling me I'm wrong or saying screw
you?
I mean, no.
Right.
So I think it's also scary to debate because the, the, the people on these apps and I think
it's just the nature of living in like click bait, quick scroll world is that if you don't
know what you're talking about, you just can get shot down so fast.
So then you're like, do I become an expert so that I can debate perfectly or as close
to perfectly as possible or realize I am not an expert.
So just by, you know, so aside from wearing like my Palestinian flag pin, then, then that's
all I'm going to do because I, do you have the mental capacity to get like ridiculed
by the internet at large?
Yeah.
I personally don't.
That's not like a, I don't want to step into that fire on a Tuesday.
Like I just, right.
You know, so I think that's, that is also part, I, maybe that's just me, but I do think
there's some fear with speaking up, right? Cause if you say the wrong thing, you could
get, you could lose your platform.
And if you are trying to turn art somehow into sales, which is a sad thing to like have
to whittle something down to, but it's true, right?
If you want, if you want to be able to live off your art, you're living off of a product
and then you've got to protect that little platform that you have in order to maybe sell
like product.
So then do you go for the shots fired, the political debate on your, you know, podcast,
maybe, you know, you decide like, ah, can you, can you, do you use sugar coat?
Do you?
Well, yeah.
And it's always interesting because like, you know, people, people ask me that all the
time.
It's like, do you sugar coat?
And I always go, fuck no.
Like, yeah.
But I think it's also like, once you set up a brand and you know what you are, it's easier.
But I think it's also like, I'm, you know, cause I also get everyone else has different
like products and how they sell and you know, I'm not saying everyone needs to sell like
I do.
And you know, and I'm a big believer of just making something the best it could be like,
you know, and I think a lot of the time we live, we live with the, you know, the rose
colored glasses on and I love tearing them off because I'm such a realist, like, you
know, cause I love, you know, when it comes to stories, I love absurdism.
I love like surrealism.
I love science fiction, fantasy, horror, you know, like all these sort of different genre
pushes to tell interesting perspectives of what we can do.
I think, you know, the interesting thing that I look about like old theater and old writers
is a lot of them were just misunderstood people.
Like, you know, no one bothered to get to know them.
So they were drinking in pubs on their own whittling away at ideas and being absolutely
miserable.
Like, you know, they had horrible lives, you know, and you sort of think this is like Victorian
era and you know, like, you know, predating and it's like, you know, some of these people
lived in the 1900s and they still like were very miserable on all the stories they were
working in.
And it's so interesting now to compare that to where we are now.
It's like, you know, we've got all these platforms, we've got all these things where it's like,
you know, internet, you know, it's like that compared to, you know, when we were kids where
it was dial up and, you know, you were waiting 10 minutes to get even on the internet and
work it out.
And I think that always makes me just go, well, no wonder people, you know, because
like the percentage of like population that we were kids was like 4 billion.
Like 30 years ago, 4 billion people existed on this planet.
And then 15 years later, it was 6 billion.
And now it's 8.2, which is insane.
Like it's a massive population and like the, you know, like the statistics is that we do
not have the resources.
Like we do not have the money to like, you know, trading goods, everything.
And that's why a lot of like the time, you know, the cost of living goes up, the cost
of like increase.
And it's funny because like in the, I think it was like in the 90s, I'm going to say,
in Australia, universities were free.
They were all free.
So education, college was free.
It was all, and then suddenly they decided, no, we're going to make people pay for this.
And I was like, well, it's already hard enough to get a job.
So now you're going to put expenses on literally the thing that helps you get a job.
And like, you know, it's the same with art.
Like, you know, you could go to the movies for like $6 in the 90s.
Now it's like 30 and you're like, how does that equate, you know, to go to the movies
to get popcorn, get chips, you know, chips, everything ends up being a hundred bucks.
Like, you know, and I'm like, how was that fair?
Like, and I understand now, like one of my exes, she was one of four and I understood
why her family never went to the cinema.
They made a homemade cinema because it was cheaper.
So they would just buy a $20 blue ray or a DVD, watch that at home and feed the kids.
Because rather than spending $200 to go as a family of six.
Blockbuster family.
Yeah.
Like, did you feel like, because your dad was also living on the poverty line, you know,
when he was younger, did you feel like you were sort of like, had that mentality of like
save and be mindful of finance?
Yes.
Yes and no.
Yeah.
I think my growing up, I was very lucky, very privileged.
I did not ever have to worry about food.
Right.
Like I knew I was going to get dinner and that's, you know, like, I don't know if that's
like, I think my dad knew there was going to be dinner, but it was like just going to
be enough, you know?
And like I knew there were always going to be some snacks in the cupboard.
So that's different.
But I did with my parents, you know, with my dad being 107, my mom was only one of two,
but her parents are immigrants.
And so they came over and, you know, struggled to get traction with one business after the
next.
You know, as both of my grandparents, you know, one passed away, one has Alzheimer's.
Like I looked at their finances in my early twenties to try to help with some of that.
It is not great.
So I think with growing up with that, just, you know, like you eat everything on your
plate and you don't waste, we don't waste any food that was in, like there's no waste.
But we did get to spend money on things that I don't think my parents had access to.
Like I was, I did sports, right?
That's not cheap.
So it's like, if you love it, we can make it happen.
I did start like working really early and I was definitely like a little money hoarder.
And until honestly, quite recently, my spouse and I weren't making oodles of money.
You know, we always had roommates, always living in like either shared housing or apartments,
even as a married couple.
And it was just like, you know, sometimes you want your own space and whatnot, but we
were, we were fine with it.
But we were saving a lot.
And I think, you know, he grew up with a similar sort of scenario of his parents weren't super
wealthy growing up and they just taught you how to save and pocket, you know, be smart,
be smart with your spending.
And I think that has stuck with me.
And this is like, probably this is the first year of our lives where like we can go out
and get dinner and not like worry about it.
But you know, like two years ago, it was like, you're looking at every price on the menu.
Yeah.
And you're judging it and you're going, can we actually afford this?
Yeah, like I think that's also something that I know my parents have talked about.
And like my mum ended up being like the breadwinner of a lot of like, she had a stable job and
my dad freelanced.
But he like, he put like, he put money away from me and my brother, which was like our
money and we could do whatever we wanted for it.
But they also were like, they've also helped my brother out with buying a house, like,
which I thought was incredible.
Like, you know, so they've sort of reserved money because they're like, well, just in
this crisis in this market, it's terrible.
Don't, don't, don't bother.
And they've sort of gone to both myself and Em and just been like, this isn't a loan that
you pay off.
Like it's a gift.
Like this is your gift, which is a very courteous thing.
Like I sort of look at my parents and go, that is really nice because they did not have
that growing up.
Yeah.
But a lot of these is mum's money she's put away, like, and dad will have gotten some
from freelance photography and stuff like that, but he never had like superannuation.
So a lot of his like back end money was just not going to his retirement.
It was just, he had to put away money for retirement.
Or his mum has heaps of money in retirement now because she was in a well paid job and
she salary sacrificed and put a lot of excess into it.
And I'm sort of grateful that I've married someone who's quite money smart for like,
and I sort of like say this in a very like, I've talked to a lot of people who have ADHD.
It is a very strong thing where it's like, if you're diagnosed with that money is like,
you know, because of the impulse, money is like a secondary, if I have money, I'll spend
it.
And so that's why I was like, the moment I got a card, the moment like it wasn't physical,
I was like, it's easier not to spend because it's not there.
It's not like loose change in my pocket where I'm like, I can buy a drink and you know,
like stuff like that.
I can actually see the tally of it going down and be more hyper aware of what actually is
going on.
It doesn't make like the cost of things any less crippling because the cost of things
are still going up massively.
But it does have a better mentality switch in me to be like, okay, well this, you know,
we'll save on this, but we'll do something nice if it's together or you know, like this
is the thing that is our passion or you know, or these are the things that are going to
make us money.
And you know, like this is where we can substitute whatever expense it's like, I mean, like this,
it's a constant conversation because like it never, it's never gone.
And you go, well, how much have we saved?
And you know, like even, even a lot of like our stresses before leaving was how much money
did we have?
And you know, it was constantly because flights between Australia and Canada are really insanely
expensive.
And so, and we have to go back and I think that, you know, when we go back in September
for a wedding and then we come back here, that's going to be like another factor.
It's like you just chat about these things and you know, like it never really truly ends
to that like, but I do think that, you know, there is a nice aspect that you, as much as
you struggle, you can talk about it with your best friend to be like, this is just uncomfortable
and I don't like that we rely on this currency to live comfortable lives.
Like I hate that about the world where it's like everything I do has to be profitable.
It has to make, I wish you could just do it.
Like it was just fun.
Like it's like, you know, people gave you back in the day, I like your jacket.
I'll give you this cloth for your jacket.
Like I wish that happened.
It's your cloth.
Yeah, I think my partner and I kind of lucked out.
We just, we met very young and we didn't have a ton.
We didn't have anything.
And see those conversations are, I mean, right out of college, we moved in together into
like a tiny little studio right across from like this hellish hospital.
It was terrible.
But you go through that with your best friend and you know, what can we afford?
And we always were trying to find the cheapest possible apartment we could that didn't smell
like cigarette smoke.
Like those are, you know, those like, you're playing these little games.
But yeah, it's, I don't think that conversation will ever really go away.
I mean, there are people, you know, like his parents or other people's parents that I know,
like next generation or generation above us or two above us who are very, have it together.
You know, like they've got their retirement there, you know, it's all, you know, and they're
still having these conversations.
I think it's just baked into us now.
Like we're so, we're so conscious of everything's an expense, right?
I mean, even, even with book writing, if I could, if I could just like, and some people
do, they do the whole production themselves, not worried if it's going to pay off.
That is an option.
You know, you can, you can go your own way.
You can self publish and you might, you might make even, you know, um, you might make a
profit and you might be under and you get, you can play that.
And I'm not saying like the other path, traditional path is going to guarantee you an income, but
there's like a, I think I personally believe, I sound like that, um, who's the like miss
something miss universe or that like weird meme lives in my head.
Anytime I say that phrase.
Um, anyway, um, I think there's this, this higher chance of being able to make a profit
off of your work.
If you go that path.
So that's the path I'm drawn towards to me.
It's the one that I feel like it opened the most doors.
Um, is that still tied back to money?
Probably, you know, even if I want to say it's not, I think deep down it is.
Uh, we can say we value a zillion things above money and yet the way money is allocated,
pick a country, any country almost right.
You can see where it is, you know, uh, here, you know, I guess we're in Canada.
So I don't know anything about Canada.
I'll be honest, but in the right, like we live in such a capitalistic society.
It's the sales.
That's, that's like the King of, you know, honestly, I think it's the driving force behind
a lot.
I think it's just so the driving force behind everything.
I think it's like, you know, capitalism is key.
It is like everything that everyone wants to do and, um, feed into.
And it's what society has governed.
This is the way we live versus like how we should live, which is value things based on,
you know, cause like the, if you really go, it's like, how many hours did I put into this
and how many, and you go, Oh, this book took me like 2000 hours to write.
So it's worth $400, like say, say that like, you know, and someone would be like, I won't
buy that.
But if you go $20 per book, yeah, all right.
Like I'll buy, I'll buy one of those.
Yeah, sure.
Like if it's $20, sure.
And so the same goes to like, if someone paints, it's like, that's a 50 hour piece.
Okay.
How much is it?
Like four grand.
Yeah.
I'm not buying that.
So why?
Because I put like 50 hours into it and it's a lot of like hard work when into it and it's
one of a kind.
Yeah.
But if it was 20, $30, I'll buy it.
And it's amazing what we put on worst of someone else's effort versus actually the amount of
effort.
Cause in the theory goes, like, I remember years ago, one of my friends was like, cause
we were comparing career things and I had had full-time jobs.
So money was never a real issue.
It was just like constantly getting week to week paycheck.
So I was like, yeah, whatever, like I can do a side job and never bat my eyelid.
And he went, Oh, like, have you ever been paid for like all your like side gigs?
And I was like, Oh, maybe once or twice.
And he was like, how?
How?
How have you never been paid?
And I was like, Oh, I just, just if someone can't pay, I just accept it.
You know, it's just like, yeah, sure.
Whatever.
I was like, I'd rather not.
I'd rather be doing something than not, which is also like, well, a great mentality is also
a terrible mentality.
Like, and it's, it's something I had to learn and get out of to make it, you know, like,
but it was how I envisioned back in the day.
Well, and it's so tricky with art, right?
Cause like, I have made money off of a handful of stories because I submit them to a magazine.
They're either in an online magazine or print and you get paid.
And sometimes it's, it's usually based on word count.
Eight to 10 cents a word, something like that, right?
They got to put some value on it, regardless of how long it took you to edit and create
your story.
Right?
So there, I have one piece that I feel like I like wrote in a day, came back and revised
it two or three times, submitted it.
Great.
And I had another one where it was like, my brain was melting for hours over this piece,
you know?
And it's still, and it was almost the same word count.
It was exactly the same amount on the check, you know?
So it's kind of funny.
But, but when it does come down to like, it's funky with, with jobs, you know, then there
is a difference.
Like you want to be making money, but like when it comes to your art, would you not have
painted the painting even if it took you 50 hours?
Yeah.
Right?
Like if you had to paint that painting, then you had to paint that painting.
And that's like, when I, sorry, when I really get down to it, like I have to write the book,
you know?
So when all is said and done, whatever happens with it, I had to write the book and I had
to make it really, really like to, to my standards, really, really good.
Right?
At least what I think is good.
Someone else is going to read this one day and be like, Oh, this book is shit.
But right.
So my mom, she's, my dad was more the science brain.
My mom was definitely more like the artsy brain.
And she one time was like, you know, we all know that struggling artist idea is your art
worth it to you to go for it?
Like she's like, obviously not starving, struggling.
Well, let's go for it.
You could like struggling.
You want to make sure you have a place to sleep and you have food.
Right.
But she's like, is your art worth it to you to, to forego this, you know, high salary?
Because when I, once I realized I didn't want to be a doctor, you start going like, well
then can I get like a nine to five so that in the afternoons I can write, like you start
playing different games of like, how am I going to balance these things?
And I was working part time doing kind of odd jobs.
And my mom's like, isn't that kind of the, like, if you get more hours to work on your
art, because you're doing quirky odd jobs, aren't you, aren't you winning the game?
Because you get to work on your art.
Isn't that the whole point?
And I, you know, you have to, you do eventually have to decide like, do I want to earn X salary?
You know, or do I care about my art more that I will take a hit on that dollar amount?
And that's a really hard, that's a really hard place to be.
But I think most people who are almost like narcissistically in love with their art, right?
A little bit.
Yeah.
Um, are going to be like, oh, hands down every time it's a hard choice to make day in and
day out, because we are feeling differently every minute or hour, every single day, right?
Sometimes we're super called to our art and sometimes we're like, nothing's working.
Yeah.
And so you're like, what am I doing with my life?
Um, but we take a step back and I, you know, think about my art.
I'm like, oh, I can't, I can't imagine not doing this.
And when I do, when I think of who I was five years ago before I started, and I think, could
I go back to that?
I'm like kind of repulsed, not that she wasn't cool, like, you know, 20, 24, 25 year old
brain was fine, whatever.
Um, but I don't want to ever be that I'm repressing this desire person again, you know?
Yeah.
I think that's the art.
Yeah.
It's that's so true.
It's something that's really lived by now is just keep doing the things that you love
versus like, you know, almost like fucking around with the things that you don't, you
know, that just kind of make everyone else happy.
Um, cause yeah, it's, it's always been like, I know, and I've never wanted to give up a
challenge like a love challenges.
I'm such a competitive person in terms of that, where it's like, if I can have a problem
to solve, I will try and solve it.
Um, and I'm very practical.
So I think a lot of that to manifest and I'm such a storyteller, like, um, like particularly
when it comes to interpreting ideas and, um, rejigging ideas, I'm such like, uh, I've got
a very like directorial and or creative hat.
So I love like reading people's stories and then sort of like going, how does this look?
And, you know, like visually playing it out, which always has been my strengths.
Um, because like a thousand stories are running through my head every day, which is like, oh,
I could write that or I could do that, you know?
And it's like, I think for me, it was like, you know, having that disconnect where it's
like, I can't organically write, like writing has only been more of a recent thing, probably
in the last like five years, have I actually been decent at writing and not feeling like
it was absolute shit.
Like, but, um, yeah, but I mean, like, you know, like, uh, I think that was sort of like
the thing that, you know, I would read books and I would take longer to read books, you
know, because words wouldn't, you know, match up because like the way the neurons were connecting
just took longer for it to, but like, and so like audio books, I love, I love audible.
I haven't, you know, please sponsor me, but it's, you know, it's a great, like, it's a
great platform for people who don't read.
I like, that's how I listened to a lot of books and I love, um, just like absorbing
stories.
I'm like, oh, if I can just like absorb all the stories, I'm a big classic literature
fan.
Um, but I also love like pulpy, pulpy ideas.
I'm for you because you also have dyslexia.
I mean, like, has that always been also hesitant to be like, I'm going to be a writer.
Yeah.
Um, cause when I, I remember finding that out and it's probably not, it probably doesn't
coincide exactly when I was, you know, vibing more with the math science route, but I felt
like it lent into that because it was like, Oh, this is why I suck at writing essays.
You know, like I don't, which is probably not true at all.
No, I think we just sucked at writing.
I just sucked at writing.
I didn't get it.
It took like until my senior year to finally get that.
I still don't get essays.
Like the way they're structured is awful.
It's yeah.
I think it's really tough when you want to be more of like a storyteller.
And then you're just like analyzing the wonderful stories you're reading.
You're like, I don't in an essay, right?
You're just like, it's not like life giving.
No, it's like, you're just condensing something.
I don't know.
Um, but with the dyslexia, it almost at that time felt like a kind of a relief to find
out, um, because I was, we got split up into like reading groups in fifth grade, you know?
And I was in not reading group A, not reading group B, but reading group C cause I was a
slower reader and I couldn't handle watershed down.
And then I found, Oh my God, as a fifth grader, I was so bored.
Watership down as a fifth grader.
Yeah.
Wow.
And I, we, because of this and it was, I think this is one of probably like I said, like
kind of a cool thing that happened is that my reading group got to pick a different book
and we read this like class.
I don't remember what it was called, but it was like a classic monsters in the house kind
of book, right?
You know, kids stuck in the house, monsters and whoopie shoobie and spooky stuff.
And um, I was, I loved it, but I did, there was also this like shame tied into being in
reading group C. Um, and I think I carried that a little bit because then when you, you
know, for me, like, Oh, you can't, I am, why do I suck at writing or I'm, you know, the
slowest reader in seventh grade also, and feel like the slowest reader in eighth grade
also.
And so, but I'm really good at chemistry.
Cool.
Right.
So there was like, I think it did lend a hand in pushing me towards that end of the spectrum.
Um, but I, I think I let it be more of a crutch than it actually is.
I, cause I am, yes, I'm a slow reader and if I read out loud, I will flip flop words
like nobody's business.
But um, but it, I let it get in my way, I think more because this, like if there's the
story in you, right?
If you want to create a story, you want to create a project, your brain's going to find
a way to do it.
You might just mix up words a little bit and then there are so many cool tools to help,
um, help you unscramble them.
Um, but just like, like you, like I, I, my love for reading just like boomed with audible
and the library before audible.
Do you remember getting a little cassette tapes?
Yeah, I would drive around and we'd play like, just, I just was like, we'd go to the library
every week to go get new, my new audio book cassette tapes.
I remember they came in like really big containers and like, they were like giant plastic, like
half of it was plastic and then just tiny cassette tape was at the bottom.
You'd open it up.
It's like a double, a double thick VHS container with like a little cassette tape at the bottom.
Okay.
What's happening?
I know.
And then, but it was like great cause you'd, you'd listen to a story and then you'd be
like changed to side B and you switch it around.
Or if you ever listened to a series and they got a new reader, and you're like, no, what
happened?
Who is this?
I, it's, it's one, like I hated, um, when like audible would play some of the old ones
and then I'm like, no, it's like Stephen Fry is like Harry Potter for me.
Like that is just the voice of all the characters.
I'm like, I'm for this.
Like Stephen Fry, I just read Harry Potter for me.
But, um, yeah, it was like any other, you know, cause I think like the Hobbit, um, was
like the only book I could actually get through as a kid.
Like I could read consistently and, um, and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.
Those were the only two books until I was like 18 that I basically properly read.
The rest of it was through like cassettes and you know.
Yeah.
I think even, um, my, I'm born and raised near San Francisco and, um, we drove down
to San Diego.
I don't know, probably eight or nine hour drive, you know, three kids in the car.
So probably up to 12.
Yeah.
I was like, how many toilet breaks do you need?
And so, but I remember, um, that was my, was part of my introduction to Harry Potter, which
I wanted to read so bad.
Um, God, when did Harry Potter come out?
I feel like I was in like six something.
The book, the first book, I think it was 96.
Well, then I definitely wasn't old enough to read it, but I remember wanting to read
it in first or second grade because my older brother who was in fifth grade was just like
plowing through them.
He could read them easy peasy.
And we had to do before we could pick a book from the library, we had to open it in front
of our teacher and read the first like two or three sentences.
And I kept tripping up.
She's like, that book is too advanced for you.
And I was so sad that I had to put Harry Potter back.
Um, but we were able to then listen to it on this road trip and it just like opened
up.
You know, I kind of, I'm right in that age range where you kind of age with those books,
probably a little bit young, but, um, I think they were still coming out.
So, you know, like I caught up to that age.
Yeah, it was like 2007.
I think it was the last book.
Yeah, that sounds about right.
Yeah, 2007 or eight.
I mean, and it's like, I know they, they were the thing.
It was like that.
Oh, I know.
It was so funny as well.
Like I have this conversation about like kids books and like teen books and teen pulp and
adult sci-fi and everything.
And I love sort of different like stuff all the time.
Um, and my mom's like, my mom is just like, oh, they're for kids.
Oh my God.
They're so good.
Um, like I was a big fan of a series of unfortunate events growing up.
Um, and, uh, I was really excited when Netflix did their adaptation.
Cause I also loved the Jim Carrey film, um, from like 2004.
And I remember like, I have it on, um, like DVD and would constantly watch it with my
brother and we'd just both nerd out over like Jim Carrey's insanely talented performances
in it.
Um, which it was clearly he was just having a blast.
Um, but I do remember like struggling with those books and I got up to book nine and
then like, I just remember like reading became so much more of a struggle because I was like
in my teens.
And so I was like, moment I hit my teens, it was harder to read because it was like
all these other distractions that are going on, like, you know, like school and stress
of school and you know, like suddenly, um, uh, I just, I just couldn't function.
Like I was like, this is too much.
So, but I used to always find solace in hiding in the library.
Like that was my go-to in school.
Oh my God.
Isn't it?
Like my librarian loved me.
Like I just chill and just like flick through because I was like, love the picture books,
like the old science books with lots of pictures and then just read the small description underneath
and be like, oh, okay, like, um, this is about dinosaurs.
This is about like evolution or you know, like, um, things like that.
So that was kind of like where I gained a lot of my knowledge, but then a lot of it
was also like TV and audio books when they became a thing and my parents were like, like
it got to, I don't know if this happened to you as well, but I remember they got to a
stage where they were just like, how do you know so much?
I'm like, oh, I learned it off this show or I learned it here.
And they were like, huh.
Cause they were both book readers.
Like they just came straight from books, like reading books would never a problem for them.
Um, and like, I remember the first time I told them, I'm like, I got John Wyndham, like
Dave the Triffids and the Midwich Cuckoos.
Um, both my parents were like, oh, they're like, they're quite old books.
Like are you sure you want to read them?
Like, yeah, they're great.
They're weird.
They're like such a product of 1950s.
Um, but yeah, like I just, I always found like those kind of like, you know, when you
have like really interesting stories condensed, like, and obviously have quite tight narratives.
Um, it was more enticing rather than these long stretching.
Like I really liked, um, I remember my dad took us to like a secondhand bookstore and
there was the downstairs area, which had, um, cause I don't know when it started happening
cause now it's everywhere you can find all this anime, right?
Oh my God.
Yes.
But when I found like manga and like the, the sailor moon graphic novels and like Ramune
half graphic novels, those were so much fun because, because reading was such a struggle,
it was like, but I can get the story in these little, you know, blips of basically dialogue
with not a lot of in between and you're just getting these incredible stories.
That was, that was probably one of my like, Oh, there's there, there's like other ways
to access books besides just the thing that's caught like, besides stupid watershed down
that was, that one will never leave my mind because it's just like your biggest Achilles
here.
You're like, Oh, I just, that was, um, that was one of those moments that just sticks
with you and you're like, Oh my gosh, I don't read as well as all my friends and all my
friends are in the group, whatever.
And I'm in reading group, whatever.
And yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and then, uh, I did eventually get the audit.
My mom got me the audio book to try to help me.
And so we, I to try to learn to read better, we would take an index card.
So I'd have to hold the book open.
We're listening to it and I'd have to move the index card down.
Wow.
Yeah.
Which I think is actually a smart way to like, to try to teach someone to, to read.
And even now I constantly, like when I'm reading my own material and editing, I'm constantly
using my other hand to underline the line that I'm reading or my pen.
It doesn't have to be a full note card, but as a kid that it did help.
Cause then you're, you're not, I don't know, you're not scrambling things as much.
But I hated that.
That felt like torture.
Having to read along with the, with this old man, audio book narrator.
It was just, uh, I hated it.
And it's about, it didn't interest me at all.
I was like, why are we reading about rabbits?
I didn't have the mental capacity to understand what was going on besides that I was being
forced to read as a kind of like a chore.
Yeah.
Um, so reading wasn't fun.
Reading was just a, yeah.
It took a beat to be like, Oh, there's fun and there's so many worlds you can just jump
into by accessing books.
But it took me a while to realize that because it was such a hurdle at first, I think.
Yeah.
I think it's like, you know, there's something I really appreciate more in my thirties and
like, like, like, like like twenties, um, is, is that, you know, like is, is the fact
that it's like, you know, the thing that I love is being able to jump in the worlds of
like different things and realize that books have different ways of storytelling and, you
know, um, and I love seeing adaptations of like, of books that are done well rather than
like, you know, versus like ones that are done terribly.
There's a lot of those people feel that way.
Um, when your favorite book becomes like a horrendously awful film and you're like, Oh
man.
Well, yeah.
I think I shouldn't touch anything that she writes in a movie format.
Um, I've made that collective decision cause Fantastic Beasts was terrible.
Um, but you know, like anything that they, other writers wrote and adapted were much
better.
Like I feel like it's like when you work well, um, and especially like, you know, writing
for different formats is such a different knack.
It's like such a different skill.
Um, and adapting work is like such a like foreign, you know, like concept for a lot
of people.
So it's like, I find when writers do it well, you, it's just flawless.
Like it's, you know, like, um, and I mean like Stephen King is the prime example of
another person who should never adapt his own work because he for years would complain
about like, um, The Shining being a terrible movie that Stanley Kubrick had made.
And so he decided to make his own and it was rated so poorly.
Um, but I didn't know that.
Yeah.
It's like, it was made in the nineties.
Um, and he thought that Jack Nicholson was too like erratic for the original movie.
And I was like, yeah, probably.
But also it just kind of worked.
Um, and I can't imagine anyone other way.
That's wow.
No, I know.
That's like the thing that I baffles me.
It's a little bit like you, you picked an amazing director and then you're like, I'm
going to do it better.
And it was actually worse.
But, um, it's that, I don't know.
I mean, like I can imagine it's very hard to separate from your art and you want to
be a part of it.
And you have this vision of what it looks like, right?
Cause um, one thing, you know, like I've done a lot of like reading on writing craft and,
you know, if you're going to write an action scene or something, you could, but it would
be so painfully boring.
Tell every single action that happens.
Right.
And maybe in that first draft you do, you know, he pulled the knife back, extended his
arms swung wide.
It like, and suddenly it's going to get too listy and long and you're just going to get
bored.
Um, but you see it so, I mean, at least I do when I'm writing, I see it so vividly.
Does it really matter now when you read it and maybe 10 other people read it, if you
all see it differently than how I saw it?
Probably not.
So long as the, you know, the, the character wins, there's some amount of buildup and resolution
and we're all on the same page about those bits.
Does it matter if you saw the arm retract before swinging wide and da da da?
Probably not.
Right.
So then, then you start to pare down your language and, um, I can imagine though, that's
so hard to watch your, how you see it in your head get interpreted totally differently.
And now you've got a product that you feel like does not match your original story.
I'm not saying Stephen King should have made this other shining 2.0, but, um, yeah, it's,
I can't imagine, cause I think about my books becoming TV shows and movies or some, some
something and, um, wanting to be so involved in that.
Right?
Yeah.
I mean, there's a part of me that's like, yeah, I want to be on that team.
I don't know how to do it.
I've never done any screenwriting kind of stuff.
So that would be a huge pivot, but I would love to try to make that pivot or at least
be at the table, you know, and put in my two cents.
But for all I know, I would suck at who knows or, or hate it.
Yeah.
Right.
Like, cause is that where you see yourself in five years?
Hopefully.
Um, I don't know.
I'm still trying to get a literary agent.
So timing is a really funky thing in this industry, but, um, I would love that.
That would be awesome.
I would love if this series got traction and then became an animated show.
I just think that'd be so cool.
I could see that happening.
Um, plus it's got this very like interdimensional dream space manipulating the non, the nearly
non-physical, right?
So, um, and I say that because if you can manipulate something, there's some amount
of physicality to it.
Right?
So I just think that would look so cool as like artwork more than, um, I don't know.
I don't want to like do CGI cause that's artwork too in a very different way, but I just think
it would look really awesome if it was animated.
I just think it would be so cool and how fun to sit at the table and help make sure that
all my snarky little characters lines are delivered correctly.
I love that.
Um, oh my God.
I really hope that for you though.
Thank you.
Me too.
Just cross your fingers.
Publisher and crazy anime.
That's like the two.
Perfect.
Yes.
And then we can get all the other books out.
Yeah, I know.
Those need to come too.
Yeah.
First and foremost.
Um, I have one final question for you though.
Sure.
Um, is where can people on the internet find you?
Where can they stalk you?
Oh, um, at right as rain Sullivan with underscores in between every word on Instagram and tick
tock.
That is so hard to say cause it would be right underscore rain underscore rain underscore
Sullivan on Instagram and took tick tock.
If I could say the app's name, uh, that would be great or rain Sullivan rights.com.
Wow.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you so much for having me.
This is a blast.
I'm so glad you're also welcome back anytime.
Please, please come back.
I'll bring you back.
Um, and if you want to go and check out more episodes of things we do, you can check them
out on Apple and Spotify.
I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you later.
Goodbye.
Hey,