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This is the things we do podcast to podcast about film life, television culture, mental

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health and all of that fun jazzy stuff today.

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I've got my special guest and friend MJ.

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Weee.

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Yo.

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Yo.

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So is it easy to call you MJ as a full name or just as M for short?

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M can be for short.

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Done.

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I can stick with the otherwise there's going to be a very interesting conversation.

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Like shorter and shorter and shorter.

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So M we've known of each other for like, I'm going to say 13, 14 years now.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Yeah, no.

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Um, and we've, we're not that dissimilar in age, which is kind of like, um, I always

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forget that I'm not, I'm actually not that much younger than most people.

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Cause I always think like when you're like really young, which I was about like 19 when

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I think we first met, I always assumed like your teenagers were when you were really young.

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And now I remember that the moment you turned 30, it's all fucking out the window and no

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one gives a shit.

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You're like, Oh, that's right.

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I'm just, I'm a normal human.

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It's funny cause like age is so, it's so intense when you're younger and you pass a certain

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point and you're like, Oh, I can't, I feel we're all the same now.

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Yeah.

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It's once you, it's once I think you kind of get out of that, like 20s mid slump, but

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you're not, you know, like if you think of how much experience you live in the space

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of like six months or a year, and then someone else is like six years older than you.

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So they've got six or even like 12, six months on you in terms of like life experience, you

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can feel the same age and then you dig a little bit, you scratch a little bit.

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Well, how do you even live a year?

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Yeah, I know.

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Look, the pandemic taught me anything, it was just improvise with everything that you

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do day by day.

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But I'm going to ask us, I'm going to take us back in time, take us back to the early

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days of you and your childhood.

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Cause you know, but also my first, probably most important question is who are you and

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what you do?

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Tell the internet.

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Who am I?

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Hello internet.

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I'm MJ.

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I make films.

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I'm currently based in Italy, but I'm Australian and I'm back here now, which I just got back

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like four days ago.

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So I'm just creeping off the edge of jet lag.

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And yeah, I'll be back for a bit and then back in Italy again, then back and forth,

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back and forth.

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Still trying to understand how to live in a good way and how to, yeah, make things in

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a good way.

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I mean, you've always been quite creative, which is, you know, since I was a girl.

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Yes.

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Since I was a young girl.

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No, like you've always kind of astounded me with how creative you are and how like out

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of the box thinker you are.

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Did that, does that come, like where did this original journey start to become a filmmaker

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and like, especially like move overseas?

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They came one after the other.

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So I was over, I was moving overseas for this kind of, kind of Erasmus that you can do at

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Sydney Uni, like you do the exchange.

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And I wanted to go back to China because after high school, I had spent a year in China and

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done university there instead of a gap year.

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I just went to university.

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It's like love studying.

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I really liked it.

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I liked how you were kind of in this space that was the center of the world, you know,

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maybe not in terms of like the way people outside thought of it, but once you got there,

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there were people from everywhere that you would never have a chance to meet here.

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Like in this year, when I was having my gap year, my closest friend was from Kazakhstan

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and other people were from like Poland or Spain or just like this crazy mix and another

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Australian, Brazil, I don't know, really interesting.

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So to come back to Sydney where everyone was from Sydney, it felt very stale, you know,

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because I had been exposed to this, if you want to go away for the weekend, you would

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go to like climb this gorge in Sichuan or like go to this mountain where Tibetan monks

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lived.

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So I was like very young to be exposed to like this level of like, whoa, because I was

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in a very random part of China.

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I wasn't in Shanghai or Beijing.

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I was in the West.

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So when I came back, it was kind of like, cool, how can I organize myself to go back

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to that immediately as soon as possible?

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So I understood, you know, but in a sensible path through university and blah, blah, blah.

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So I understood I could do this Erasmus to Beijing to one of the big universities there.

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So I did that.

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And while I was there, I had to kind of already developed a little bit this jealousy of people

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who did film.

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It was already starting when I was in uni here, like, hmm, I'm very jealous of my friend's

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brother that he's doing film.

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Like, why?

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I like what I'm doing.

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Why this irrational jealousy?

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And then I got to Beijing and a friend of mine kind of put me in touch with her friends

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and they were filmmakers.

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And I was immediately like, hi.

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And then slowly I understood, yeah, this jealousy, like use that to show you what you want because

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it's like an envy.

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So if you like look inside yourself, okay, what am I envious of?

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Maybe I should follow that path.

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And so yeah, halfway through the six month Erasmus, I started to write a film and ended

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up like staying an extra six months.

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Then I never really came back to Sydney after that.

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I came back for some months to maybe like finish the degree that I had missing subjects

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randomly around and to finish the post on the film that I had shot there.

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And then that came out what?

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2012?

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2011?

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2015.

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2015.

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Oh God, okay.

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The timeline is messy.

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Yeah, I know.

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I was like, because I remember you, I remember you posting about that and talking about that

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and I think there was a year between post and actually completion of filming or something

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like that.

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It was quite a...

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Yeah, we shot in 2013.

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Yeah.

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So like filmmaking.

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Yeah, it took a while.

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But I mean, it took very fast to film in some ways for a feature film, like a couple of

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weekends, like a couple of weeks, but over six months.

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Because also then you could get Beijing in the summer and the winter and the city changes

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a lot, which was cool.

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But it was one of these projects where no one is paid, you know, so you have to go slowly

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and everyone is helping at the right time that works for them because they're doing

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it because they're interested in it or they like the project.

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So you can't really push people that much at that point to hurry the fuck up.

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It's not going to go.

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No.

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And then you left China and then moved to Italy?

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No, there was a step in between.

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So the film was 2015, basically finished, went to Montreal World Film Festival as the

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premiere and then played some festivals around, even one in Sydney, I think this one, women

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in film.

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The name has changed now since the festival existed.

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Oh, I think I know the one you're talking about.

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But yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It was called like Mad or something like that.

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Yeah.

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Anyway, yeah, I can't remember.

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I always forget the name and I should know it.

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It was a nice one.

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But yeah, so as I was finishing that, I understood that I wanted to leave from Beijing just to

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change things up.

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I mean, I was 24.

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I'd been in Beijing and China since I was 18.

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And I had understood that you can get a son, you can kind of do anything in Beijing.

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You can arrive and just tell people, I'm a filmmaker.

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And like, why would they question you?

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Okay, cool.

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But like, maybe you're not at all.

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You just say that you are and they'll believe you.

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And then you just do whatever you want.

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So I wanted to kind of enter into more like professional setting to not be in this amateur

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space.

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I was looking at different film school options and didn't want to go to the US, didn't want

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to go to the UK.

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But everything in Europe was the National Academy.

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So it was in the local language of whatever country you want to go to.

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And then actually, this friend of mine who was doing the music for actually who we worked

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with at the Seymour Center, he did the music for the Beijing film.

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He was like, ah, you know, this Hungarian director has opened a school in Sarajevo.

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So why don't you check it out?

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So I checked it out and I applied and I got in to the second round of master's course

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that they had.

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So, yeah, I moved from Beijing to Bosnia, Herzegovina, to study there under Belotar,

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who is this Hungarian director.

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And yeah, his school is quite experimental in the model.

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Like it was more like a masterclass model.

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He just invited his different friends to show up.

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And there were like very specific guidelines of how we could and couldn't make films, like

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certain limits he made us do.

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And then I was two years there and the second year the school closed.

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So our last semester was like no teaching, just shooting.

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Bella had gone and we used the equipment of the school to kind of finish our work with

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each other because we were all like on each other's crews and stuff.

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But yeah, and then after that, that's when I went to Italy.

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Right.

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And then did Italy open like another whole like level of boxes for you?

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Yeah, kind of.

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Yeah.

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It was a very random decision.

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Like I still now can't quite place what drew me to there, except that I didn't, it didn't

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make sense to go back to Australia because I had been so long away and I didn't know

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what to do.

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I wouldn't, I would have to completely start again.

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I didn't really want to go back to China also because I didn't have a visa and it would

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have had to find a work and find a visa.

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It was kind of getting annoying.

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Yeah.

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And at the time I had the possibility to live in Europe for my passport.

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So I went and yeah, it was like cool.

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Italy is right next to the Balkans, like right next to ex-Yukoslavia countries, but it's

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bigger than Slovenia, which has a very tiny market.

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And it has a really good relationship with China, like historically this connection of

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like Marco Pol onwards.

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And basically there was that, I had a lot of friends from Beijing who had some connection

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to Italy or were Italian.

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Very randomly I went there and yeah, it opened up this whole world of like European cinema.

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Yeah, which is a very different ball game.

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I feel like Australian cinema is a little bit, I want to say lackluster.

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I've never been a huge fan of Australian cinema.

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I think it's like depends, but I think yeah, like international like films or European

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films that tend to be sort of like way more interesting or just independent films.

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I kind of like indie films.

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They are like where a lot of my love comes.

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But surely there are Australian indie films now, like there's interesting things being

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made around.

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Only in the last five years though.

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It really came out in the last five years.

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Before then, when especially when we were both studying, there weren't that many, there

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was like completely like probably pittance.

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Yeah, it's true.

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There was like this weird desert, you know, in between from like the 90s ones until, but

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recently there's some pretty interesting things popping up.

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Yeah.

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And I feel like it's probably because Australia got a lot more traction, especially because

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we've got a lot more stars in the limelight that want to push a lot of Australian productions,

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which you know, kudos.

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But we weren't known for like, you know, TV soaps and stuff like that.

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We weren't really known for like dramatic arts or, you know, really well thought out

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films.

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We were known for soaps and horror.

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And those were like our two things.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's always the same model, no?

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Like, ah, the landscape is so scary.

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Yeah.

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No, suburban life.

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Whoa.

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Suburban life is fucking terrifying.

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I have to say, like, I can agree with this one.

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But no, I love, so, so what was the last thing you filmed?

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What was?

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I actually shot a short here during the lockdown.

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Wow.

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Which was, okay, not during the lockdown, during this lock in, lock in, like you can't

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leave Australia.

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Lock in.

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Yeah.

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So yeah, not like in my house.

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Because it's hard because I don't know, I always refer to the lockdown as just those

245
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two years.

246
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,080
Yeah.

247
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,080
Because I couldn't leave.

248
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,080
We were locked in.

249
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,080
Yeah.

250
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:10,720
Anyway, not quite correct.

251
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,280
But yeah, it was cool.

252
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:18,760
It was some very, very random, like, how do you say, collusion of events.

253
00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:19,760
Yeah.

254
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,360
A friend of mine who became a friend because I went to look at his house.

255
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,120
And just, and the reason I looked at his house, because he did such an interesting post on

256
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,000
Facebook marketplace, like instead of pictures, he'd made like little films and he announced

257
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,000
himself as a filmmaker.

258
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,880
And a lot of the films, I could see Star Wars posters.

259
00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,520
And I was like, aha, okay, like I could live with like a Star Wars dude.

260
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:40,520
Like this is possible.

261
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,600
So like, I went to see the place and literally, I think I spent like one hour there, like

262
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,880
chatting with him, looking at what he was working on, telling him what I was working

263
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:49,880
on.

264
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:50,880
It was really interesting.

265
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:51,880
So then I was like, okay, cool.

266
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:55,080
I actually don't want to live in your house, but like, let's be friends.

267
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,120
And I think some days later, like a week or so later, he was having a party at his house.

268
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,680
And he's the kind of person who really brings people together.

269
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:06,080
He wanted to invite all these like random, crazy, strange people that he'd met.

270
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:07,480
Because he's a filmmaker as well.

271
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,120
So he's like bringing these worlds all the time.

272
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,600
And yeah, from this we became friends.

273
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,320
And at some point he was contacted by an actress who he just did not want to deal with.

274
00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,680
He was just like, nah, okay.

275
00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:24,400
And he called me, he's like, okay, there's this actress who wants to make a TV series.

276
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,280
Do you want to talk with her?

277
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,720
So I forgot, he's Italian and she was Italian too.

278
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:29,720
Right.

279
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:30,720
And I was like, yeah, sure.

280
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:31,720
Why not?

281
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,440
And she was from the city in Italy that I had been living before I got here.

282
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:35,800
Where all my luggage was still living.

283
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,600
I wasn't meant to be in Australia.

284
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,480
You know, I was accidentally here.

285
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,840
So yeah, we got in touch and I went for a coffee with her and she told me the kind of,

286
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,240
she pitched me the TV series that she wanted to do.

287
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,520
And at some point I was like, look, you don't really have any funding or anything.

288
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,760
And you know, to write a TV series can take a year more and we should do it properly.

289
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,440
Like enough of this amateur level.

290
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,280
Like let's do things properly.

291
00:13:58,280 --> 00:13:59,640
So no, I'm not going to do this.

292
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:06,360
But if you want in a very like random rough, like a punk style, we can make a short film.

293
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,360
Yeah.

294
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,440
So we kept talking and I understood, you know, what were the things she was really interested

295
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,360
to talk about from this like massive TV series idea?

296
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,240
What did she actually wanted to say?

297
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,440
And then how could that match with what I wanted to say?

298
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:24,200
And then yeah, she introduced me to this actor that she wanted to work with.

299
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,560
And I made him take me to all these different locations he liked.

300
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,080
And slowly like this, I built the script, kind of talking with both of them and making

301
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,080
the script around both of their personalities, which is anyway how I work.

302
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:40,800
And then, yeah, got some like met some people through friends, like this amazing cinematographer

303
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,880
and I got a friend to do the sound.

304
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,840
And yeah, like this very randomly we went into the nature and shot two weekends.

305
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:53,440
And then tragically, the actress who was originally the whole thing, her idea, she actually couldn't

306
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,640
come those weekends because she like was on it.

307
00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,720
She didn't understand that she was supposed to tell her agent to block these dates.

308
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:06,080
So she made this huge mess and I was very tempted to just completely change the actress.

309
00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,480
But in the end, I was like, no, no, no, it was her original concept, this thing, like

310
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,200
let's finish it with her.

311
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,800
But we had to shoot in a way that she wasn't there.

312
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,680
So using like a body double or yeah, so that was very interesting.

313
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,200
And then the, so the last part of the shooting was actually like months later.

314
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:28,240
I had created this kind of book of all the locations, how we shot them to understand

315
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,280
like how could we match the counter shot with something that could look like the same.

316
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,920
So like me and the DOP did this very nice action actually of scouting around understanding

317
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:37,920
like what could match.

318
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:38,920
Yeah.

319
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:39,920
Yeah.

320
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,160
So then we shot with her for a weekend, which I think also for her must have been crazy

321
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,120
because she had no context for each like shot, you know.

322
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:48,120
Yeah.

323
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:49,920
Sometimes it'd be like, okay, those bushes, put your head near those bushes.

324
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,760
Yes, exactly that bush, cause it looked like the other bush from the other location, like

325
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:54,760
Newcastle.

326
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,560
We found the matching bush from Newcastle, put your head next to it.

327
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,760
And then like pretend to look up and pretend that you're on a cliff.

328
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:01,760
She'd be like, okay, whoa.

329
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:09,080
So for her like acting, she came from theater, so she could do this kind of imagination work,

330
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,080
I think pretty well.

331
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,800
Anyway, yeah, it looks cool.

332
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,080
So still trying to finish that.

333
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,960
Again, same problem as before.

334
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:22,600
No one's really being paid, so everyone has to work in a, you know, capacity.

335
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,520
That's awesome though, because I feel like, you know, the thing you bring the best of

336
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:34,960
both worlds, which is like, you know, independent art style, but also like professionalism and,

337
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,000
you know, the proper approach, which I a hundred percent am all for.

338
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:45,520
It drives me mental when I guess it's such a student mentality of like rush it and go

339
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,320
for it.

340
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,520
Which you know, I think happens more when you're young because you think that nothing

341
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,400
could ever go wrong.

342
00:16:54,400 --> 00:17:01,520
And like you just said, things can go wrong all the time, but it's like, yeah, so there's

343
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,400
little mounds of challenges.

344
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:09,640
Like do you, have you ever gone through that stage of, you know, being a filmmaker and

345
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,120
just going, what the fuck am I still doing?

346
00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:13,120
Oh yeah, constantly.

347
00:17:13,120 --> 00:17:14,120
Yeah, absolutely.

348
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:21,920
Like even yesterday, like, but you know, okay, partly because of this process where we got

349
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,200
a producer coming into that project at the end, you know, after I did the edit, I sent

350
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,080
it to him and he's, oh, I like it.

351
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:29,080
Gave me some feedback.

352
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,920
We kind of went back and forth and he was like, if you want, I can help you produce

353
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:32,920
it.

354
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,400
Like I'll come on as the producer to finish the thing.

355
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,200
But it would have been amazing to have someone from the beginning, cause then you're carrying

356
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,720
the weight of it with someone else, you know, cause really the director and the producer,

357
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,800
the only ones who see the project from the beginning all the way to the end.

358
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,240
So it's pretty lonely without a producer, cause only you are carrying this project on

359
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:49,480
your shoulders.

360
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:55,240
Like the sound guy pops up, does amazing work for those days and then goes home and onto

361
00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,680
the next project, you know, like it's more like little segments of the film.

362
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:07,360
So in that sense, it's very tiring if you're on your own on a project, especially like,

363
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:08,720
it's nice to have someone at the beginning.

364
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:13,280
Like now that I'm working with this guy at the end, I really know like how valuable it

365
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,720
is that I would love someone at the beginning to kind of bounce ideas off of the script.

366
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,720
And with this one, the actress, the wonderful thing that she did, she brought in on someone

367
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,920
she'd worked with before this dramaturg who helped with like warming her up and all this

368
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,160
stuff, but also helped with bouncing ideas of the script.

369
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:30,160
Cause you need that.

370
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,480
You can't just write a script in a box in your room and then like turn up on set and

371
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:34,920
be like, hi, I've got it.

372
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,160
Like you need a process for like other people checking in and yeah.

373
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,080
So that's the thing that I think makes a difference when you're working in a more professional

374
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,080
space.

375
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,440
Cause in order to even get the funding, you have to have a certain quality of the script,

376
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:53,360
but it does mean that everything becomes much more standardized, you know?

377
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:59,000
Like in Europe, there's a lot of these film lab, script labs and everything goes through

378
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,000
the same process in some ways and the same people.

379
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,680
So I mean, obviously if you get something like super radical outside the box, they probably

380
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,280
also like love it.

381
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,360
But in some ways everything becomes folded into the same style or the same box and pops

382
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,440
out in a kind of similar way.

383
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,840
So actually the cool thing about making something a little bit more punk like this, that yes,

384
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,400
it can end up with a more student aesthetic, but if you do things properly and like film

385
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,800
in a more professional way as much as possible, you can create something that's very like

386
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,200
original and a bit random.

387
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,200
Yeah.

388
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:34,680
But yeah, to answer your question, this doing it by yourself thing is very tiring.

389
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:35,680
Yeah.

390
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:36,680
Why?

391
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,680
Why, why, why?

392
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,280
And like why you have to push it every moment and why you have to persuade someone to, because

393
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:43,280
I, yeah, I don't know.

394
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,760
And also in the end you're like, does anyone even want to watch this?

395
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,440
Like I'm just, why don't I just paint a painting, you know?

396
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:55,480
Because if the point is to express your creativity, I can just do something that's so much easier.

397
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:56,480
Yeah.

398
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,160
I think, I think it also makes you though, because the one thing I've always had mind

399
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:07,240
about your level of work and your output is, is that like, you do take things very seriously

400
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,240
and you do.

401
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:09,240
I wish I didn't take things so seriously.

402
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:10,240
How nice to just be like, yay!

403
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,520
But I mean, like, it's like, I'm the same.

404
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:20,120
And I think I, it's sort of like to my detriment as well, but it's sort of like my love for

405
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,840
film is very like, whether it's paid or unpaid, I just always take it very seriously.

406
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:30,000
And I think that's, you know, not always possible for some people because at the end of the

407
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,920
day, like, yes, you're having fun, but you've got a certain finite amount of shots to get

408
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:40,320
through and you're also on a clock, like of the, you know, depending on light, which I

409
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:46,000
think, but I do like the idea that, you know, like I always think I try to work, especially

410
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,000
with performance.

411
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,080
And I think it comes down to my love of performing is working with similar minded people and

412
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:58,440
fine, you know, it's like cherry picking the people that you're like, Ooh, I love, love

413
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,520
working with you because you're very, you know, not like flexible, but you're in line

414
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,000
with like my vision.

415
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:11,560
I think like when, when everyone works on a clock and everyone's ticking along and doing

416
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,120
well, it's more like a smooth ship.

417
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:21,200
And like, I love working with people, especially, you know, operators and creative, like people

418
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,480
who just know distinctly if I'm directing something and they go, Oh, I've got an idea

419
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:25,480
and cool.

420
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:30,000
And like, everyone actually can chat, not just be like, what do you think director,

421
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,520
because you're the only one who has vision.

422
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:37,680
I'm like, no, like there are about 20 ideas that I could probably think good, but there

423
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:42,160
might not actually be the best thing for the product in the end.

424
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,640
Do you find, I mean, it's so nice when you couldn't find people that you're working

425
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,400
like almost more like a band, not like when you're making music or jamming that you're

426
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,240
kind of in this collaboration space or like in theater, it's a lot more like this, you

427
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,040
know, this collaborative theater.

428
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,400
And it's nice when film can be like this.

429
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,680
I mean, obviously then can be some kind of hierarchy because people like to know what

430
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,480
to do and who's going to follow the project until the end.

431
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,600
But I really like this idea of a much more collaborative.

432
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:11,600
Yeah.

433
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:12,600
Yeah.

434
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:13,600
But then you have to find your people.

435
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:14,600
Yeah.

436
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,800
And then you have to build this community.

437
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:17,800
Yeah.

438
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,240
And for me, that's what's a little bit hard when you're constantly changing country and

439
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,840
working with different kinds of people that you learn a lot.

440
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,160
But then in your mind, you're like, okay, I'll take the cinematographer from that place.

441
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,720
And then I'll take my friend who does amazing sound from all the way over there.

442
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,480
This friend should just come on set because he gives me very good ideas and she can be

443
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,520
there because she's so friendly and makes such good energy.

444
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,800
And like, she is like amazing behind the camera.

445
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:41,800
So she has to come too.

446
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:42,800
Yeah.

447
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,320
But you can't do this because she lives in Germany and he lives on a mountain somewhere.

448
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:49,840
How do you build this?

449
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,520
And I don't know, for me, that's something I a little bit miss, to be more rooted and

450
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,440
build a crew from the place where you are, which was cool in the short to kind of start

451
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,280
to put together a group of people that you like to work with.

452
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,280
Yeah.

453
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,480
At the same time, also, every project is a bit different and you are building these families,

454
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,480
which is nice.

455
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,480
I mean, I like to work like this.

456
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,920
But again, a lot of people prefer big set energy, which is also nice.

457
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,680
I don't know what to do with the big set.

458
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,400
I love small sets.

459
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,880
I love the intimate family vibe.

460
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,480
And I think it's also because I worked in TV for too long.

461
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:33,400
It's probably because my entire department is like a little deranged family.

462
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,920
What department were you working on?

463
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:41,120
So I work in TV, I work in a tech department, which is called Master Control.

464
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:42,600
Wait, Master Control?

465
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:43,600
Yeah.

466
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:44,600
No joke.

467
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,560
It is called Master Control.

468
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:47,560
Interesting.

469
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,560
Yeah, I know.

470
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:55,120
And we deal with like fibers and feeds coming out of channel seven.

471
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,380
So we do that on a daily basis.

472
00:23:57,380 --> 00:24:00,320
So we deal with not live news coverage and everything.

473
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:06,760
It's a very, you learn to translate a lot of people and find what people are trying

474
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,960
to say and simplify it for yourself, which I think I love.

475
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,680
That's not a skill that everyone has.

476
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:13,680
Synthesis.

477
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:14,680
Yeah.

478
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,840
It's like, because a lot of people I find take everything that people say verbatim.

479
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,520
I'm like, no, you've got to read the layers between everything.

480
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,480
And I think a lot of the time, when people are learning or they don't know what something

481
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,200
is or they've never worked in a field before, they're like, I don't know what I'm talking

482
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,160
about, but you might be able to understand what I'm saying.

483
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,240
I'm like, well, yes or no.

484
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,720
And that's part of my job is to kind of translate what people are asking for and where they

485
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,640
can receive it and stuff like that.

486
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:44,640
So that's been my last eight years of learning TV.

487
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,960
But I mean, in between everything, I've done photography, I've done film editing, I've

488
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,160
done podcasting, I've done sound.

489
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,560
So I'm kind of like a jack of all trades.

490
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:54,560
I've done performing.

491
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,440
So like, I kind of, yeah, I love just creating.

492
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,640
So it's like my little like, if tech pays me money, then I get to do everything else

493
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,840
I love outside of that.

494
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:07,840
Have the money work.

495
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:08,840
Yeah, I know.

496
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,880
Well, capitalism, I really rake towards it.

497
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:12,880
I'm like, yeah.

498
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,560
So when someone calls you to be on their crew, you could fill in like many roles.

499
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:17,560
Yeah.

500
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,560
Like the performing, sound recording.

501
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:20,560
Yeah.

502
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,200
What were the other things?

503
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,200
I do producing.

504
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,400
I like, yeah, I'm very good.

505
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:31,440
Like I think, I think my favorite thing is like being said to me mountain countless times

506
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,280
is everyone's like, you're really good at just stringing a bunch of people who have

507
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,240
never met together and making them do.

508
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,240
Yeah.

509
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,240
Yeah.

510
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,960
It's like, and doing something and just going do it and getting everyone like really worked

511
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,360
up and excited about an idea.

512
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:47,600
I love doing that stuff because it's like, well, you know, and I used to have friends

513
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,920
like bring me scripts and go, Hey, what do you think of this?

514
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,960
And I'm like, I love it, let's, let's try and get a bunch of people together and try

515
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:54,960
and make it.

516
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:55,960
Can you make this happen?

517
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:56,960
Yeah, no.

518
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:57,960
You're the make it happen guy.

519
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:58,960
All right.

520
00:25:58,960 --> 00:25:59,960
Got it.

521
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:00,960
Yeah.

522
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,960
Yeah.

523
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:02,960
It's like, it's just like, write this one down.

524
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:03,960
You will make it happen.

525
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:04,960
So watch out.

526
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:05,960
You don't want it to happen.

527
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:06,960
Don't give it to him.

528
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:07,960
Yeah.

529
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:16,160
But no, it's, and I think it's also like interesting because it comes from a lot of my like post

530
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,200
production side, which I loved.

531
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,000
Like I was really good at film editing and in like uni.

532
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,320
So a lot of that came out of that.

533
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,480
I think I like managed to, especially in my year, I've managed to edit one of the most

534
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,600
like difficult films because it was like directed.

535
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,000
So it was like a really well written script and was very particularly directed in a certain

536
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,000
way.

537
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,520
And I think I had to remove an entire scene because, and there were like countless discussions

538
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,520
about whether we should remove it.

539
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,440
And it was like rated by my editing teacher as one of the best he'd seen in years.

540
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,600
And I was like, well, this is a positive.

541
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,960
And it was like me and some other guy, a lovely man called Frank, who was from Scotland and

542
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:54,960
Frank.

543
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:55,960
It's not Frank.

544
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:56,960
It's Frank.

545
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,960
Frank.

546
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,960
We do honor to the name.

547
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,040
So I've got to know that Frank was there.

548
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,760
And yeah, he was, he was amazing.

549
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,120
And he also did the other film that I think was picked at the best.

550
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:13,360
But there were like other ones that, you know, like you got category of best written, best

551
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:18,000
directed and best edited, and I think he and I were like tied for like best edited.

552
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,400
But yeah, we were the ones who were just like loved doing editing class, but also kind of

553
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,200
just ended up probably in predominantly like non editing.

554
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,320
It's always a way when you love editing and you love, but I think I'm so particular as

555
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:33,320
an editor.

556
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,960
I love editing when the director like loves what they've done, not when I don't know what

557
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:38,960
the director loves.

558
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:39,960
Yeah, come on.

559
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,800
Like, it's very hard to edit for someone who doesn't.

560
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:44,800
Yeah, I know.

561
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:50,540
I think it's also like, I sort of being like on and off, I think, you know, like, if anyone

562
00:27:50,540 --> 00:27:53,880
knows my family history, it's like my dad's a photographer.

563
00:27:53,880 --> 00:28:00,400
And that sort of like leverage gives me a little bit of more of an understanding of

564
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,280
like composition and everything.

565
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,760
Because I grew up like sitting around him and just going, okay, well, you spend about

566
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,120
eight hours here and you're taking it on film.

567
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:13,680
But every time I watch something that hasn't been thought out about composition or I guess

568
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,960
just in terms of what's happening in the scene.

569
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,080
And I think the way I work is I'm very adaptable to everything.

570
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,060
You can't, even if you plan, you can't be too rigid.

571
00:28:25,060 --> 00:28:27,980
It's impossible.

572
00:28:27,980 --> 00:28:31,720
And things go wrong all the time, like things, you know, so you have to kind of think back

573
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,340
doorways and getting out of things.

574
00:28:33,340 --> 00:28:40,120
And I think one of the best experiences I had was, you know, like in between directing

575
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,780
my own stressful things and like producing was just working with children.

576
00:28:44,780 --> 00:28:48,760
Because we had this set where we like literally we weren't knowing if it was going to rain.

577
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,680
And we had a backup plan of shooting indoors.

578
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,880
And I remember the director just went, oh, I haven't really thought of a backup plan.

579
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,200
Like he hadn't even thought of it.

580
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,480
And I was producing and the first idea and I just like came up with a backup plan.

581
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,240
Like we were just like making notes and loving it.

582
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,960
And I think it was all down to just kind of having that mentality of like, well, if something

583
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,600
falls over or someone calls in sick or something, there's always like how much time, like how

584
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,880
is the quick turnaround?

585
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,920
Can you make something out of like someone not being on set?

586
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,520
And yeah, like the advantages of a few weeks back, I ended up doing sound for one of my

587
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,440
days, which, you know, like I even knew in the day, because the wind was so strong, we

588
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,440
had those like high winds on a Sydney beach and we filmed it.

589
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,960
And I was like, probably most likely I have to ADR it.

590
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,520
But I was like in the back of my head, I was like, well, I'm going to try my best to get

591
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,760
as good enough sound as this is.

592
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,720
But I also know, and I spoke to all of us, I was like, you might have to come back later

593
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,400
and rerecord some of these lines because they are just like, you know, like the wind is

594
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,060
so high no matter what you say.

595
00:29:56,060 --> 00:29:57,660
And you're also physically running.

596
00:29:57,660 --> 00:30:00,520
So it's like, okay, yeah, I know.

597
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,360
I'm like, good luck.

598
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:09,200
So yeah, there's a lot of things that I kind of think outside of that box.

599
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,400
But that's also been, I think, working in a tech department for so long and seeing what

600
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:20,040
it's like with real life TV, and especially like live broadcast, you learn how things

601
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,480
like affect on air so quickly.

602
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:28,600
Like we've had live crosses from like international crosses, you know, and, you know, people get

603
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,160
so funny about things like delay where it's like you're on the other side of the planet.

604
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:37,280
So you know, if no one knows how the satellite works, you shoot a signal up in the sky.

605
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:38,920
That's about a second ago is down again.

606
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,360
That's the second if it's got to jump around the world, it's got to go up again, down again.

607
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,240
So you got three seconds.

608
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,360
People think that's like eternity.

609
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,560
It's actually great because you know, like it means you've got three seconds to work

610
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:54,600
out a problem before it hits where you're seeing it or you know, if yeah, so it's like

611
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,080
you're constantly ahead of the game.

612
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,280
But yeah, everything I do is like you can fix something 10 seconds before it goes to

613
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,840
an air and no one will notice.

614
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,840
Like I've had that happen.

615
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:04,840
So interesting.

616
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:05,840
Yeah.

617
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,640
So it's like, I'm very good at that like Eureka moment.

618
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:10,640
Yeah.

619
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,920
Or like having many, many backup plans that you have to go through very, very fast.

620
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:15,920
Yeah.

621
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,240
And I think, I think it's also like, I try to work with very similar like-minded people

622
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:24,560
because when I've worked, especially because I'm like, whether I'm doing something paid

623
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,120
or free, I always try and get there early or like on time.

624
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,160
Like I try to aim for the two because I think like the lesson you learned in school and

625
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,400
TAFE, which was early is on time and on time is late.

626
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,760
It was a very weird mentality, but I remember that always being the thing.

627
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,600
And I think just because I've been on set where like some people are an hour late or

628
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:49,240
two hours late and you're just like, you do really impact the entirety of the production

629
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,780
if, or like everything.

630
00:31:50,780 --> 00:31:55,680
Like what's the worst like situation other than like an, you know, an actor.

631
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:56,680
Like what's been the worst for you?

632
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:57,680
Oh, for me.

633
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,680
Well, yeah, this actress not even coming to the set.

634
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,760
Literally having to be like, cool, I guess we'll just shoot without her then.

635
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,080
And put her in later somehow.

636
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:08,080
Yeah.

637
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,720
Which have you edited it all out together yet?

638
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:11,720
Yeah, it works.

639
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:12,720
It works?

640
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:13,720
Yeah.

641
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,800
I mean, it made, so I did the first edit, then I gave it to, again, my producer was

642
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,120
already on the project by this time.

643
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,640
This is an editor that he knew who's this really nice director who's also an editor.

644
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,120
And when I gave it to him, he's like, okay, my process, I mean, even though you've done

645
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,640
an edit, that's like a guideline for me.

646
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,760
But I'm going to still look at all the raw material and look at like, look at everything.

647
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,280
I was like, yep, sure.

648
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,560
But just, just a heads up, like some of these scenes I've literally edited it in probably

649
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,800
the only possible way that they can be edited just because of how we shot.

650
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,720
And I wish that there had been a produce on set or like a proper AD to kind of keep track

651
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:49,920
of a lot of things.

652
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,080
Because maybe some of them can be nice to have more cutaways because we were shooting

653
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,120
in this really weird style of how like not being there.

654
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,200
And you know, sometimes you're racing the light, you're tired.

655
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,320
I had to go to like the doctor at some point on the last day.

656
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,600
So we had to finish my mid days and get my doctor appointment.

657
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,920
Everything was just like random.

658
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:13,280
So for the editor, it was kind of like a challenge, you know, for me to edit it first was a challenge.

659
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,280
And then for him to go on.

660
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:20,880
I'm just trying to think if there were any other experiences like of that level.

661
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,160
No, that was probably, there was a very funny one though when I was, because in Bosnia,

662
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:26,400
we were working on each other's sets.

663
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,800
So I was usually the first AD of the others.

664
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,040
That was like my role.

665
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,840
So everyone, like at the beginning, you're all kind of playing different roles.

666
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,440
And then people understood like who was good at doing which thing.

667
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,480
So like some people, you'd always ask them to be the cinematographer.

668
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,560
Someone you'd always ask to be the sound.

669
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,280
And sometimes it changed a little bit because I mean, all of us could do all of the things,

670
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,640
but you kind of fell into the patterns.

671
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,080
And again, like you would kind of shoot with the same people.

672
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,360
Like you liked the energy of this person on set, so you'd bring them on.

673
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,840
And we had a similar experience to what you're describing of like something had gone wrong.

674
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,680
And we're just sitting there like smoking a million cigarettes, having a million coffees,

675
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,040
calling all of these different people with the schedule, me and the director.

676
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:09,600
And it was because in Sarajevo, if you go out the one of the exits of the city,

677
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,280
because the city is a valley and it's a split city, the same way the country is split.

678
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,240
So part of it is Republika Srpska, which is the Serbian part.

679
00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:21,240
And part of it is the federation, which is the Bosniak part.

680
00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:26,320
And if you go out one exit of the city, you immediately go into the Republika Srpska part,

681
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,920
who have a different police, a different police.

682
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:29,720
Oh, yeah.

683
00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:34,280
So the part of the road that the director wanted to shoot on, we got the permit.

684
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,160
But the lady who was in charge of production at the school,

685
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,840
she'd only got the permit for the federation, not for that road,

686
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,600
which was actually a Republika Srpska.

687
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,240
And she had kind of like not really realized properly because she was, you know,

688
00:34:44,240 --> 00:34:49,360
making mistakes randomly, but also it was super confusing of like, how do you do this?

689
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,240
And then we were trying to understand that there were different regulations.

690
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:56,320
Like there was a police escort that we had to have.

691
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:02,080
But then the police escort was only free on Tuesday between like 8 and 8.30, something very random.

692
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,120
And all of these things, there were a hundred other factors.

693
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,440
Like the actor was also only free.

694
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,600
You know how it is, you know, like rescheduling.

695
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,960
So it was so funny, like sitting in this cafe, we're like both of us on the phone, like,

696
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,760
OK, can the police do this? Talking to her, can you organize this?

697
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,360
And like it was such a high energy, like we hung up in our eyes, we're like shining.

698
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,360
We're like, we love this.

699
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,360
It was so funny.

700
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,000
It was like it was just complete chaos.

701
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,360
And like we're looking at the schedule and like, wait, I have an idea.

702
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,160
I was like, my God, this is like this like super AD side of me.

703
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:35,040
That I'm just like so happy to like move the schedule around.

704
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,760
Because in some ways it's very creative as well.

705
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,560
But in this way that you wouldn't really think, you know, like usually you're exploring your creativity in another direction.

706
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,960
Yeah. So to like explore this side of like scheduling creativity was like, ooh.

707
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,440
Like, look at me rescheduled everything.

708
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,320
Yeah, exactly. Like, wait, how much do you really love that scene?

709
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,920
Like, could we do this? And at some point I was like, yeah, we can cut it.

710
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,480
We can cut it. I was like, no, but I love that scene.

711
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,760
No, it's gone. We cannot have the shop.

712
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,600
Very dramatically, like throwing bits of scripts in the air.

713
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:08,040
So yeah, that was the other time I can think it's very like chaos, chaos arriving.

714
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:14,920
But I don't know, every production has its own little corner of chaos at some point for whatever reason.

715
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:21,400
That just reminds me of like when I had to book like the Helensburg Tunnel a few years back,

716
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:29,920
which is like I found out through trying to book it through the council that it was Crownland and it wasn't owned by council.

717
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,080
It was owned by the Crown.

718
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,800
Wait, you had to write to the Queen?

719
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,880
Yeah, it's really felt like that. Yeah, the ex-Queen no longer.

720
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:41,360
And I think it was such a back and forth of just trying to work out who owned it.

721
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:46,520
And then finally I got on to the right people and they were just like, oh, yeah, no, you can have it.

722
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,760
But it was such a I remember just being like sitting there with email chains,

723
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:58,040
like probably like 50 emails going back and forth of what papers I was meant to fill out and who was meant to fill out what.

724
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,320
And yeah, it's the same like it's the same recently.

725
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:08,160
If you go up to Kayama, Bombo Quarry is owned by the Waterland,

726
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:17,640
Sydney Water as well as Kayama Council, but there's certain sides that they own and there's a split right down the middle.

727
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:24,200
So so there's like all these like, you know, all these famous sites that you're in Australia, like the permits are just nuts.

728
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:29,480
Like there's always like, oh, which side are you filming on? Because that affects how much you know, the charges.

729
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,640
Wow. So you just I'm going to film on the cheap side of the river.

730
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:39,320
Yeah. And basically, I think I got the free side and then we ended up using the costly side because no one was there to stop us.

731
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,400
And it was really weird because I always find like permits like you get because it's just easier,

732
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:51,120
but there's always like public access and people always end up there like you never really own the road.

733
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:58,560
But don't you ever wonder like in retrospect, like what if one day someone from that council goes to watch your movie and they're like,

734
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,880
that looks like the blah, blah, blah side. I don't think they paid for that.

735
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,480
Do they have a permission? Like it's not in the credit. You know what I mean? Yeah, I know.

736
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:11,920
It's kind of weird, like fear or guilt that like one day someone from the council will watch your film and realize like,

737
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:17,720
I don't remember them paying for that rock. Yes. What do you mean? They shot there.

738
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:22,880
But there's interesting part of like sometimes you can't put down a tripod, but if you're in a crew of less than five, you can shoot without paying.

739
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:28,520
Yes. So like there's these other like strange corners. They're like, cool. Everything's suddenly very handheld.

740
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:34,920
Yeah. It's like in Sydney, if you want to shoot in Greater Sydney, you don't have a crew more than eight or nine people.

741
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,360
It's pretty big. Well, including cast. Yes. Yeah. Right.

742
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,720
Yeah. So it's quite small and therefore you don't really need a permit.

743
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:48,840
And like, look, there are some parks that they don't give a crap about, like as long as you don't make up ruckus.

744
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:58,040
But yeah, like a lot of heritage land and everything like that, they do like you signing permits, like because, you know, they just, you know, it's people.

745
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,320
They just like to know that their land is being used and where it's going to be advertised.

746
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:08,160
But it is a funny process. I've done it too many times. I've done it so many times.

747
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:14,360
And I think like one of my favourite friends from uni helped a lot with it because he used to work in the tax office.

748
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:20,400
And so he would be the one who kind of like helped me understand a lot of the legalities.

749
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:26,280
Because, yeah, had I learnt straight out of uni, I wouldn't have had a clue what I was doing.

750
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,920
Because like no one ever teaches you.

751
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,080
Yeah. Like where do you learn this stuff? I mean, unless you go and intern in a production office.

752
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,880
OK, that's probably, yeah, that's where you learn it.

753
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,040
That's when you learn. Yeah, I know.

754
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:45,600
Because, yeah, like though with your like filmmaking and everything, like because did you, you've done performing as well.

755
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,640
Like you're a bit of a performer.

756
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,800
Would you call you like what kind of performer would you call yourself?

757
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,040
A failed one. Completely failed.

758
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,840
Who changed side of the camera.

759
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:05,240
No, yeah, I never think of myself anymore as a performer until I accidentally perform and I'm like, I love this.

760
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:09,280
Yeah, it's really something. Yeah, I left behind when I changed side of camera.

761
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,280
No, yeah, I actually that's not true.

762
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,560
I didn't really because the first film I was acting in it.

763
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,680
Yes. But my main energy was on directing it and then all that.

764
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,960
Like I was kind of in it even to kind of support the guy who was acting.

765
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:30,880
So I understood that like instead of telling him what to do, who was a non actor, I could feed him energy and feed him lines by being there with him.

766
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,560
And, you know, we'd talked about it and like this.

767
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,880
But then, of course, you couldn't direct him because you were there in the scene.

768
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,520
It's not going to be like, excuse me, you have to say that better to me.

769
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,520
No, you're in the shot. It doesn't work.

770
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,960
So it's a different way of directing by jumping literally in.

771
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,720
And we had a very good connection, like really trustful, full of trust.

772
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:53,840
Yeah. Trusting connection.

773
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,400
So that really helped. But yeah, I don't think of myself as a performer much anymore.

774
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,640
But yeah, I really like it still.

775
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:11,000
I was accidentally in a shooting in Italy and I was kind of like, I hope someone spots me.

776
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,320
I hope someone asks me to do more of this work because it's very easy and very fun.

777
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,960
Yeah. Easy, I mean, because I wasn't doing anything.

778
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,280
I'm not saying the work is easy because, you know, you have to do a lot of stuff.

779
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:28,680
But I also think like when you're acting, you have to have a very specific relationship with your own emotions.

780
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,920
And having done acting or like from when I was a kid, I was doing like speech and drama.

781
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:40,360
So you're kind of studying how to use the voice or how to move in the space, how to improvise this kind of stuff.

782
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:47,560
It's usually just solo. But anyway, you give a lot or don't give a lot.

783
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,680
But you are using your emotions and using your like muscle memory and emotional memory.

784
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:58,480
And if you aren't emotionally OK, it can really make a huge mess.

785
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:06,480
Yeah. For yourself, you know, or you can just be shit because you try and get there emotionally and you just can't because in yourself, you haven't explored that side of your emotions.

786
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,880
So it's a big thing to ask someone to act for you.

787
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:18,160
And because I've been on that side of it, I feel like I can understand better as a director, like what I'm actually asking them to do.

788
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,480
Which is also, yeah, it's important because there has to be this kind of trust.

789
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,400
Yeah. Yeah.

790
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:32,960
Because like with your own emotions and everything, you know, especially with creating, like it's a very, I think, very vulnerable thing to do,

791
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,080
especially write stories, because there's a little bit of element.

792
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:42,760
Like, even though you're like, oh, I write them around people I know and stuff, there's always a little bit of element of ourselves in everything that we do.

793
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,440
Like, how in touch are you with your own emotions?

794
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,960
Getting better. In terms of like work stuff,

795
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,400
I feel you're always making your best work when you're going home in your work.

796
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:02,800
So you're making from a place of very much your reality, even if it's not a physical reality, maybe it's an emotional reality.

797
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,720
But there has to be something true that comes from you in this space.

798
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:16,200
But yeah, it took me a long time to kind of let myself be vulnerable in all the way, but also not really like this.

799
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,360
First of all, I made it was like incredibly revealing.

800
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,280
And in some ways it's like, cool, maybe I can't talk about my emotions, but I can put them in a film.

801
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:29,840
So then you also have this strange game of like, maybe instead of this film, you should just do some therapy.

802
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:35,040
Because, like, you know, it's a product, people pay and watch it and they pay you to do it.

803
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:41,360
So people have to want to watch something, it has to be visual, visible.

804
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:48,920
So there's also this space of like the films that are maybe like private personal films that are a kind of like just creative outlet

805
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,360
that can be like essay films or these kind of things that don't take a lot of money to make or produce and maybe no one will ever watch them.

806
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,440
But they're also part of the creative process, they're like the side projects you have to do.

807
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:04,040
And for me, this is a very nice like process of the emotions to put certain films or projects like this.

808
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:04,560
Yeah.

809
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:11,120
That maybe are not for the consumption of the others, because I would never ask someone to like watch my therapy diary or whatever.

810
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:11,840
Yeah.

811
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:20,040
But that... And also like this practice of combining images, it for me is very relaxing.

812
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:27,280
So often I am doing collage, physically combining images, because it's very similar process.

813
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,320
And again, it's a way to like meditate on a person or an idea.

814
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:31,360
Yeah.

815
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:32,600
And it's not a very profound thing.

816
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:37,240
I mean, Pinterest is already doing this, you know, like you're just making a mood board, it's not really profound at all.

817
00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:38,280
Yeah, whatever.

818
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:39,440
But I really like it.

819
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:39,760
Yeah.

820
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,880
And this as well helps me to process the emotions.

821
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:43,480
Yeah.

822
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:44,160
Yeah.

823
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:51,360
Do you like... Because that must be difficult in some ways as well.

824
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,880
I mean, I collect a shit ton of paper everywhere I go.

825
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:54,360
Yeah.

826
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:55,920
Wait, are we talking about collaging or what?

827
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,680
Both, collaging and therapy, self-therapy.

828
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,080
Because I mean, like, you know, I think like...

829
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:05,640
Love you.

830
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,560
No, seriously, like, I literally came back here and unpacked my bag and I'm like,

831
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,240
ah, all of these images I collected last time.

832
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:16,320
I was so happy to find this like giant stack of like useless paper.

833
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:22,920
I mean, do you feel like, you know, that are you one of those like people who just goes,

834
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,240
oh, you know, like trauma is what defines my filmmaking or like, you know,

835
00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:34,080
because I know a lot of people talk about like, you know, I guess the trauma artist that, you know,

836
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,920
like, especially when we make film.

837
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:43,120
And I know I'm a big advocate of mental health, but I've noticed the other side of the coin,

838
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,280
which is like, what's it, you know, being called a drama queen or everything like that,

839
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:52,600
or, you know, like, you know, like Em's father gets worried and, you know,

840
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:58,480
and I'm like, destigmatizing a lot of like pent up things.

841
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,480
But when I do remember like a lot of friends being like, troubled artist tonight.

842
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,160
You know, art is my soul and my torment.

843
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:14,480
And I don't know, I just like, I don't, I don't feel like anything that I've ever created is really like,

844
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,400
truly, I think they're always elements, but I don't like,

845
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,720
though it's interesting that you say that because I think with this podcast,

846
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:27,560
I've talked more openly about anything than I even probably like told my therapist really in one setting,

847
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,680
because it's like this recording booth that has no judgment.

848
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,480
And like, it's talking into the black box.

849
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,920
Yeah, it's a little bit like that.

850
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:43,920
But yeah, it's a funny process because I think there's like a huge misconsumption,

851
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:50,320
like miscommunication, like assumption of, you know, like that, you know,

852
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:55,840
what we do or how we deal with things is like not based on sort of some sort of like, you know,

853
00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,360
we're always happy or we're always enjoying what we do and then we don't have any like downtime

854
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,200
and like doing little art things like collages and, you know, collecting ideas is like,

855
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:11,840
I just sort of like write notes and sometimes like organizing a schedule is like really therapeutic to me.

856
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,720
I'm like, oh, now I know my week.

857
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:18,720
Like, I find those more therapeutic than I do actually, like sometimes making a film.

858
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:22,040
I find that way more stressful.

859
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:30,120
Actually, yeah, for me, like a lot of time I have trouble differentiating between reality and fantasy.

860
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:30,760
Really?

861
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,800
Very, very in my head and very floating.

862
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:39,720
So there's something very beautiful in the writing process because you're in pure fantasy, you know,

863
00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:45,520
and obviously part of the process, the way I'm writing is pulling it into something that's filmable

864
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,440
and that can be real and that can be made together because of the way I like to work.

865
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,000
You're making it together.

866
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:56,880
So it's almost like two processes, one and some piece of me is like, why don't you just be an author?

867
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,320
Again, just because you want to, not for anyone to read, but like do that too,

868
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,840
like write random stories that are set maybe in space, something that is just not going to happen when you film it.

869
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:10,160
Because in some ways, the way my film process is also limiting to what I can imagine.

870
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,840
Yes, you can only film what can be filmed.

871
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:17,040
Yeah, small budget, small crew and together.

872
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:22,640
But yeah, I mean, I love that.

873
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,240
I was going to ask, what do you like love?

874
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:27,880
What goes on in your head?

875
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,720
What's the sort of normal thought process, especially like with genres and ideas?

876
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:34,520
What, like, where do they all come from?

877
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:35,720
Oh yeah, I remember why I said this before.

878
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:41,840
So it's connected to this question that, sorry, I'm really tired.

879
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,760
An image comes into my mind and then it disappears.

880
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,560
This is to answer why I'm not answering directly and also to answer the question directly.

881
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,520
It's both. An image comes into my mind and then it disappears.

882
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,680
And it's like on some subconscious level as an archive of images.

883
00:48:54,680 --> 00:49:00,400
And some of them have already fit themselves into different stories that at some point will be made or will not be made.

884
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,360
Because a lot of films exist in your head and you see them the entire thing.

885
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,200
But maybe you would just never make it.

886
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,600
And that's also fine.

887
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:17,640
But yeah, so there's often these very strong images, like from a dream or even from dreams.

888
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,600
And then it's a process kind of like collaging of understanding how these fit together.

889
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:30,200
And for me, because it's quite a subconscious process, it actually helps me to look at what photos I've been taking recently.

890
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,000
Or at what images I've been pulling out of the pile of images that I collect.

891
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,240
It's almost like reading the tarot.

892
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:39,200
You read the Tarot Key and you're like, OK, here is this that's come out.

893
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:40,880
And you're like, how strange.

894
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:45,200
So like for a period, there were these, I was like what you're naturally very drawn to,

895
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:49,560
like when you meditate and you open your eyes and where your mind kind of fixes straight on.

896
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,080
So a lot of it is kind of like this.

897
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,120
And then there's also these logical things like, OK, yeah, I know I'd like to make a film in this place.

898
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,600
So like I'd like to make a film like with this actor.

899
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,360
I was like, I want me to make a film with this actress.

900
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:03,360
So like, how do I combine her and who she is with these ideas that I'm interested in exploring,

901
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,080
with these images that have been popping up around and in my mind?

902
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:13,160
Yeah. So it's this kind of, yeah, like collaging, collating process of bringing all these elements together

903
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:18,800
to then write something or make something, which, yeah, or just not write something and make something.

904
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,760
Like write it and then never make it, because that's also like definitely reality.

905
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,440
Just like keep doing that.

906
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:31,160
Especially if it takes two years to make it, you know, like I'm at a point now where I'm actually going to write a bunch of projects

907
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,440
and then go in this more professional angle of like pitching for funding for them.

908
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:41,600
Because it's tiring to be in this space where you have these ideas and you have this vision,

909
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,560
but it's going to take so long or you're limited.

910
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:53,520
And it's like, okay, better to go more slowly and focus on one or even put like two or three seeds out into the world

911
00:50:53,520 --> 00:51:00,960
and see what comes back rather than like freezing up and be like, oh, I'm not going to write it until I have the actors and locations.

912
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,840
Yeah. Just write something and put the seeds out there.

913
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,200
Then you can develop it more if there's some feedback coming back.

914
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:08,680
Yeah, I agree with that.

915
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,640
I think I always encourage people to write as well.

916
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,560
Never stop really like writing.

917
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:21,320
I sort of always thought outside the box of just giving people challenges.

918
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:26,520
I'm very good at giving people challenges because I'll go to them like if I ever want anyone to like challenge themselves,

919
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,120
I go, here's like write a story.

920
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,760
Here's your limitations of what you can do.

921
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,840
Actually, there's a really cool director who made a book about this.

922
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:42,480
It's called like something like, let's say, 52 situations.

923
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:51,760
And he looked in all there was an essay written about, I want to say theater, maybe fiction books,

924
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,040
that there are only a certain kind of narratives and certain kind of stories.

925
00:51:55,040 --> 00:52:00,640
So he adapted that to cinema and he's like, okay, there's only like, let's say, 52 different situations that can happen.

926
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,040
And then he made these playing cards that come with the book.

927
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:08,320
And there's this game that you can play that you just like take out three situations and then you have to write a script based on those three situations.

928
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:09,040
It's really cool.

929
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,920
Oh, wow.

930
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:12,120
It's like an exercise.

931
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,840
I mean, it sucks if you're like, murder, betrayal, incest.

932
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,320
You're like, cool, that's not what I wanted to make a film about today.

933
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,600
But they are the key things in the story.

934
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,960
Let's begin.

935
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:40,320
I mean, my favorite films tend to probably be quite like human based as well as like a look into, you know,

936
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,360
kind of what the main character is going, like a character study.

937
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,080
I love character study films.

938
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:55,280
And I particularly like, I think it's always helped because, you know, like growing up watching a lot of late night SBS movies,

939
00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:00,240
which were just, you know, like on TV back when kids watch Free to Air.

940
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:01,160
I remember Free to Air.

941
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:02,480
I was imagining it the other day.

942
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,400
I was like, return on your TV and there'd just be things showing.

943
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:05,880
Yeah.

944
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,360
And they would be halfway through and there'd only be five options.

945
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,400
Yeah. And you just kind of kept with it.

946
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,880
You didn't argue.

947
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:18,160
No, that was my entire childhood.

948
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,520
And I think, you know, 90s kid.

949
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,560
And I think like, you know, this is the thing about streaming and so on and so forth.

950
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:32,480
But I was watching like, I think what I love, especially about like independent art form as well as like, you know,

951
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:37,720
it's a mixture between like professionalism, you know, and independent form is like, you know,

952
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:43,080
directors who can do both or like, you know, you know, you have that indie feel to them,

953
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,160
but also have a layer of truth and character study and everything.

954
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:52,880
And I think it's funny, like, you know, with the world being glossed over by superhero films and stuff,

955
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,720
which sort of like feels a little bit mediocre now.

956
00:53:56,720 --> 00:54:00,160
Yeah, it's confusing why this is still a thing.

957
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:05,120
I think it's because a lot of kids just like shiny things.

958
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:10,200
It's odd. Like, how is it possible they keep popping out more superhero films, but also for adults, no?

959
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,000
Like all of them. And I'm so confused.

960
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,240
Like, so didn't we already have like eight of these?

961
00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:14,520
Yeah.

962
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:15,840
And aren't they all a bit the same?

963
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:17,160
Maybe they're not, because I actually haven't watched them.

964
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:21,720
So maybe they're all like doing, you know, different kinds of character study.

965
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:24,760
I mean, I'm sure they are different plots, but...

966
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:26,080
I've watched all of them.

967
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,960
And sometimes when they do it right, they do it right.

968
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,920
And then sometimes when they do it wrong, I'm like, OK, that was nice.

969
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:37,640
But it's because they are drawing on this this fan base of these comics, right?

970
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,920
Like they're not inventing these stories or these characters.

971
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:44,240
No, I think they're only about like the only invention they have is like writing their own

972
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:47,600
like connection to it all, but like to make a bigger thing.

973
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,400
But I think like, you know, like.

974
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,080
You know, the fact that it's all owned by Disney conglomerate now and, you know, like,

975
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,800
and I and I think because like I was watching

976
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:03,320
every time I watch like Star Wars or stuff right now, I just kind of

977
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:04,960
I'm a bit worn out.

978
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,280
I like I love the original trilogy and I think I reason I love it.

979
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,960
And it's the same with like Indiana Jones and stuff like old movies

980
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,960
was because they were kind of made from the ground up.

981
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:14,960
They knew what they were.

982
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,520
They were made very cheap.

983
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:22,240
Like I love the fact that Star Wars, the first one was made by George Lucas.

984
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:24,280
And he basically said, I don't care about money.

985
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,480
All I want is merchandise rights.

986
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,840
And he made bank off just merchandise.

987
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,240
Like, you know, that was the smart.

988
00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:33,040
Like he was a businessman, he knew.

989
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,240
But the same like I watched.

990
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,120
I go girl watching Alfred Hitchcock and a lot of those films,

991
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,840
some of them look really cheap and then some of them look like amazing.

992
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:44,720
Especially like that.

993
00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:47,080
It was really interesting because when he went to Hollywood,

994
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:49,480
he didn't like it that much.

995
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,480
Like there was a few films that he like were very particularly Hollywood.

996
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:57,320
And he actually struggled more with that than he did with making films

997
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,760
outside of the Hollywood brand, like Psycho, which I think

998
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,440
was the most controversial film because he killed his main character off

999
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,200
in the first like 20 minutes.

1000
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,000
And everyone was like, what the fuck are you doing?

1001
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,840
Like, you can't do that, even though it happened in the book.

1002
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,600
Like it happened and he took it solely from, you know, like material.

1003
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,000
But yeah, apparently, according to the execs department, they were very

1004
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,680
annoyed that he did it even in the film.

1005
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:22,680
It's radical action.

1006
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:24,040
Yeah, I know.

1007
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,280
But, you know, like there's all these films that I sort of like look back on to.

1008
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:29,440
And I think.

1009
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,720
You know, like I think one of my favorite

1010
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,080
Robert Eggers is one of my favorite directors at the moment, because

1011
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:43,720
he's a, you know, production designer, you can really tell by like Lighthouse.

1012
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:44,920
Weird.

1013
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:46,200
I love that film.

1014
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:47,000
It's so cool.

1015
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,280
It's so good.

1016
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,520
Like William Defoe and Robert Patterson are like.

1017
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,120
What a crazy combination.

1018
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:58,360
I know. But if you like, OK, like if in the moment of Twilight, you were like

1019
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:03,200
this guy who's being this weird vampire thing, he's going to end up in this

1020
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:08,040
like dark, crunchy film with William Defoe and in like 10 years.

1021
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:08,760
I don't know how long it was.

1022
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:10,480
Yeah, but he was like, no.

1023
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,000
But it's also just like, I think the thing was I went to go and see it

1024
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,680
with a friend who didn't expect halfway through to see Robert Patterson

1025
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:22,120
masturbating to a mermaid like like or having sex with one.

1026
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,000
I go back to the same thought, like go back to Twilight time.

1027
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,080
Yeah. In 10 years, this is what he's going to be doing.

1028
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:29,920
And you're like, wait, what?

1029
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,280
I think it was like, you know, like way wackier.

1030
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,280
But I think the thing I love about Robert Patterson,

1031
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,600
he's like always said in interviews, like give me weird scripts,

1032
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,400
like give me like weird fucking things because he like he loves independent film.

1033
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:42,600
So does William Defoe.

1034
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,600
Like William, though, is like a huge independent actor.

1035
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:46,640
Lives in Rome, you know.

1036
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,560
Yeah, he does.

1037
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:51,880
He was in Abel Ferrara's film of some years ago, Thomas.

1038
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,960
So, yes, playing Abel, which is kind of crazy.

1039
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:56,120
Yeah, the court that's.

1040
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:56,520
Yeah.

1041
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,920
I'm with with Abel's wife and kid in the film.

1042
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,440
Just kind of crazy, too.

1043
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:02,000
Wow. Interesting.

1044
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,400
He's had a career.

1045
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,880
Doesn't he speak a few languages?

1046
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,200
He tries to speak Italian.

1047
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:09,880
Fails.

1048
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:10,880
No, no, he's he's good.

1049
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:12,040
Like he speaks it.

1050
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,160
But it's hard to act in a different language.

1051
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:15,440
Yeah.

1052
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,160
I don't know how often he's acting a film completely in Italian.

1053
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:19,160
Yeah.

1054
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,560
How's it because you live in Italy now.

1055
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:22,600
How good is your Italian?

1056
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:23,440
It's OK.

1057
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,120
Yeah, I can survive.

1058
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,560
Do you feel like you've picked up an accent now at the time?

1059
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,680
Apparently, in the last period, I got a Milan accent.

1060
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,240
Yeah, which is not popular for the rest of Italy.

1061
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:37,680
But that's that's where I've been living.

1062
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,480
So I absorbed this.

1063
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,360
You very like because I feel like this is where your performer comes out.

1064
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:44,200
You just adapt a bit.

1065
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:45,160
Yeah. Yeah.

1066
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,160
Like also with the body language.

1067
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,000
And it's it's a bit confusing because I mean, I'm not Italian,

1068
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,560
so I don't have to think in this way.

1069
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,040
Or and I don't really go all the way to the thought level.

1070
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:01,400
But in terms of like certain attitudes, it's like I actually don't feel like that.

1071
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,680
Like, why do I have to behave in this way?

1072
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,040
But it's like you're absorbing so much of the surroundings

1073
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,600
that kind of pops out in different in different ways.

1074
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:11,480
Yeah. But it's kind of fun with the language, actually,

1075
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,200
if you absorb the face of the language, not that

1076
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,480
maybe you don't have so much vocabulary,

1077
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,840
but you're doing the right facial expressions or like the right

1078
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:28,400
like like these strange noises that happen or like certain ways of replying

1079
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,800
or like certain kind of slang that isn't really even slang.

1080
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:33,920
It's things that more like children say. Yeah.

1081
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,880
And if you start to do those things, you actually don't have to speak

1082
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,160
that much of the language and people will think that you understand them really well

1083
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,040
and that you can you can speak much more than you can,

1084
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:44,720
which is quite interesting.

1085
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:46,880
It's kind of performative side of language.

1086
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:48,640
Oh, my God. It's really interesting.

1087
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:49,680
I really like this.

1088
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,320
I feel I spend more time learning that than trying to like learn vocab.

1089
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:56,400
Because you're like, what's the right sound effect for the situation?

1090
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,600
No. Why don't you just learn some adjectives?

1091
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,600
No, I must know.

1092
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:04,000
Oh, my God.

1093
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:05,360
Objectives are overrated.

1094
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:09,200
I know. It's like, you know, I think that's really interesting.

1095
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:13,120
I like also that you talked about your, you know, coming back to Sydney

1096
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:17,760
and also like loving where you live now and having less connection to Australia

1097
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:19,840
than you used to.

1098
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:24,560
Do you think then like what brings you always back here?

1099
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,440
What's what's the main reasons that you come back to Australia these days?

1100
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:30,600
Interesting. Each time a bit different.

1101
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,720
So the first time the first made my COVID essentially. Yeah.

1102
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,760
Now I've come back for work and work on a documentary

1103
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,240
that will shoot a bit in in the north.

1104
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:42,760
And also, I wanted to come back.

1105
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,360
I have friends here now and like have a nice community here.

1106
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,880
It's Christmas. So family stuff.

1107
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:53,480
Previously, I was coming back more like, yeah, it's time to visit my family.

1108
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:55,440
I haven't been back to Australia for a while.

1109
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,600
Or like it's time to figure out how to finish university, you know?

1110
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,640
So more like life admin or family things.

1111
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:05,320
But yeah, being here for two years forced to be here.

1112
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:07,240
Like it definitely wasn't my choice, let's say.

1113
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,520
I wouldn't have thought to come back.

1114
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:14,160
But it was a very good action because to like, we put down the roots now,

1115
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,720
because since this time of when we met in university,

1116
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:18,320
I hadn't really been back for two years.

1117
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:20,560
I'd been back for two months, three months, you know?

1118
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,080
And you grow a lot since that time and you change.

1119
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:25,400
And I had changed what I was doing and changed major.

1120
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,400
So you kind of drift apart from those friends that you know,

1121
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:30,560
at least I did from the people I'd met then.

1122
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:34,680
Still, like, love to catch up with them, but you've gone in different directions now.

1123
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,600
And that's, you know, that's fine. That's what life does.

1124
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:43,160
So, yeah, it was very beautiful to come back and make new connections with Australia.

1125
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,880
Still with some old friends, but then having new characters and a new reality.

1126
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:52,920
Even if like, there's also this odd awareness that because I've been so long away now,

1127
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:59,480
I'm able to live here as an expat in a way that I hadn't before.

1128
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:00,880
Not...

1129
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:03,120
I think it's more of a mentality.

1130
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,720
It's like, doesn't really change anything I do physically or like anything really.

1131
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:11,760
But in the sense of like, let's take advantage of these amazing things that are in Australia.

1132
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,760
Whereas in the past, I was like, OK, like, I guess I'll just be here.

1133
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,320
Now it's like, oh, so cool that there's like this amazing place to swim.

1134
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,360
We're like, how amazing the nature here.

1135
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,480
Oh, let's go and have like a picnic on the cliffs.

1136
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:26,360
Like, ah, let's play music in this location.

1137
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,160
How cool. And like exploring and going around.

1138
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,160
And that definitely wasn't my attitude before.

1139
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:37,880
And really, like here, there is such a good nature, you know.

1140
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:42,880
In the in the middle of the city, like we're living in such a crazy place

1141
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:48,280
to have the ocean like right there that you just don't have really anywhere else.

1142
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:50,680
Maybe in Portugal a bit.

1143
01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:51,680
Yeah.

1144
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,280
But to have a city like this is really incredible.

1145
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,880
So, yeah, it's cool to reconnect to this.

1146
01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:02,080
I love that you're kind of like a tourist in, you know, like your own city.

1147
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:04,880
It's it's kind of the way to be.

1148
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:05,880
It's a nice way to be.

1149
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:07,880
It's a nice way to live. Yeah.

1150
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:12,880
Like, I mean, tourist is maybe one step too far, but I mean, but no, but at the same time, yes, why not?

1151
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:14,880
Because like Sydney is massive.

1152
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:16,880
Yeah. Like there's so many national parks inside the city.

1153
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:18,880
Yeah.

1154
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:20,880
There's all like the Blue Mountains, the Royal National Park.

1155
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,880
And I don't know, I had never really explored like this side of my interests in Sydney before.

1156
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,880
Like when I was in university, I was just here in the West.

1157
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:30,880
Yeah.

1158
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:32,880
Yeah. And this like city like, oh, cool.

1159
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:33,880
Like, what's the cool new bar?

1160
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:34,880
What's the cool cafe?

1161
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:35,880
Yeah.

1162
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,880
I think it's also like remembering you back in the day versus you now.

1163
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:48,880
Like I can see, like I can see the difference because like, yeah, it was very you back then from like, you know, I was very young as well.

1164
01:03:48,880 --> 01:04:00,880
But I think it's like, you know, you did see that kind of like, like a little bit more like Sydney, Sydney kind of whatever, like uni work, uni work, like I'm going to get away from all this anyway.

1165
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:08,880
And there was less of a connection. And I think now it's like you've come back with just like bright eyes and kind of like excitement.

1166
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,880
I think it's an attitude now.

1167
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:12,880
Yeah.

1168
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:24,880
Because also at that time, like I was super into wanting to be in China and wanting to be in that place, even if it wasn't actually China, but that kind of place where you're interacting with people from all over the world, like this very international feeling.

1169
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:34,880
And so Sydney wasn't stimulating me in that way. And because I was very interested in this more like urban landscape, Sydney wasn't stimulating that either.

1170
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:39,880
And now it's like, OK, well, why don't you just be stimulated by the reality that you're in?

1171
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:44,880
So, I mean, Sydney has this amazing side of it. That's that's great.

1172
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:54,880
And actually, I don't know, it's also like a slow change in pathway, you know, to kind of go a bit more back towards the nature and towards the ocean.

1173
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:59,880
And it's so nice. Like it's something I really missed this period in Europe, like to not have the ocean there.

1174
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:03,880
It's something very crazy here.

1175
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:09,880
And also like what's nice here is you can meet your friends for free, you know?

1176
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:10,880
Yeah.

1177
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,880
And I know that a lot of people like to meet their friends in a bar or a pub or for a coffee.

1178
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:21,880
But here, like you can meet your friend on a cliff or like in a park by the ocean or in a park, not by the ocean anywhere.

1179
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:27,880
And you can be in such a nice. I think actually it also depends if it's raining or not.

1180
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:32,880
I understand it's been raining like constantly this last year and the last years.

1181
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:39,880
But when it's not raining, theoretically, you can meet anywhere and not pay to see your friends, which I also really appreciate.

1182
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,880
Yeah, you're not kind of like told you can't sit in the park or you know.

1183
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:50,880
Yeah. Or like, I don't know, in Milan, there's not so many options for this.

1184
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:55,880
So it's like, OK, I have to. I mean, it's not like a coffee. I mean, it's one euro coffee.

1185
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,880
So it's not. But conceptually, I like the idea that you can go for a walk with your friend.

1186
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:03,880
And I think that changed a bit here in Covid because I never thought of Australia in that way before.

1187
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:05,880
It was still a thing. They're like, hey, let's meet for a coffee.

1188
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:09,880
And then in Covid, it was like, let's meet for a walk. Yeah. This is so much better.

1189
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,880
Yeah. So it's nice to walk and talk. It's nice to think and be in the nature, even if it's in this.

1190
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:18,880
I don't know. I think for me, Covid changed a lot of how I was seeing the city.

1191
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:27,880
Yeah, it's interesting. I always sort of think that Covid is one of those things that really changed how I saw people in a good way.

1192
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:37,880
Not in a negative way, but I think it was like it also made me just really appreciate the effort that people put in as well.

1193
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:44,880
And kind of just like what I got out of it as well, because I was living on my own for two years.

1194
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:49,880
So I just had this hunker down. No one other than my parents I went to see.

1195
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:54,880
And so that really taught me a lot about who came into my life, who came out of my life.

1196
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,880
And now there's friends that I don't even speak to.

1197
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:02,880
I'm quite similar to you as in like I just drift away from some people and that's fine.

1198
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,880
Like I've just accepted that kind of like, you know, and there's new people.

1199
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:14,880
Like I'm constantly making new friends all the time because I'm like, you know, I think it's exciting to live that way.

1200
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:20,880
And, you know, there's so many people I haven't met yet and we'll meet one day.

1201
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:27,880
But yeah, like I do, you know, like I think you just, COVID's really helped connect with people on very different levels than it used to.

1202
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:34,880
Like I think I don't, you know, talk about super, I want to say superficial things, but you're not talking about similar interests.

1203
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:42,880
You're kind of almost talking about life experiences and, you know, and things that actually feel a bit more character defining than you just being like, oh, I like this show.

1204
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:43,880
Yeah, me too.

1205
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:50,880
It's like, yeah, now I'm just like, you know, because everyone was living the same life for like two years.

1206
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:55,880
It kind of really taught you to kind of really open up and, you know, communicate properly.

1207
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,880
Yeah, actually, yeah, that's a good point. I didn't think of it like that.

1208
01:07:58,880 --> 01:07:59,880
Yeah.

1209
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:04,880
The subject matter of the conversation becomes deeper somehow.

1210
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:12,880
I mean, like I definitely lost friends because of how like how open I became, which, you know, I don't take as a bad thing, but I definitely like, you know,

1211
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:22,880
when I talked about my like life experiences, my own mental health and everything, I think it was just like, some people didn't, you know, like come to terms with their own experiences in life and therefore just like,

1212
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:28,880
like my favorite term is I got put into the too hard basket, which is always my favorite term.

1213
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:40,880
And I think it just made me appreciate like things that I do and the things that I love was really from COVID because I like, you know, like I think when before COVID, I really had the busyness of life.

1214
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:51,880
I really hated this sort of like sense of you do everything, you had to meet deadlines, like you had to be a certain age to do things like you got to do it all before you're 30, you know, like, and now I just don't care.

1215
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:53,880
Like I'm just very like.

1216
01:08:53,880 --> 01:09:00,880
But yeah, well, this is before you're 30. For me, what I really appreciated was you didn't have to have a plan anymore.

1217
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:05,880
It was always so hard. Everyone was like, so what are you planning to do? What's the next step?

1218
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:12,880
I didn't know when it arrives, it will happen, you know, but you always had to have a next step and have the next idea of like, where are you going to go next?

1219
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:16,880
Or even like how am I going to deal with my visa? Everything, anything like this.

1220
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:23,880
And in COVID, that was all kind of deleted, at least for me, also because coming back in Australia, back to Australia, I didn't need to worry about a visa anymore.

1221
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:28,880
So that was great for one thing, for sure. That was amazing.

1222
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:36,880
But to not be able to plan, which in some ways was pretty stressful, but on other ways was like so liberating.

1223
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:41,880
It was like, yeah, I don't know what's going to happen in six months. Am I going to be here? Can we leave yet? Who knows?

1224
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:49,880
But I'm here now. It was almost like all of this like meditation concepts and ideas of being present were like thrown in your face.

1225
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:55,880
It's like, OK, now you actually have to live like that. Do that meditation, Buddhist stuff, that thing you were thinking about.

1226
01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:02,880
Yeah, actually live like that now. So pretty nice. I really liked it.

1227
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:05,880
Because do you classify yourself as very spiritual?

1228
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:11,880
Yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, classify myself. I don't like to put names on things.

1229
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:16,880
You don't watch a label, are you? I really struggle with actually. But yeah, I would say I'm spiritual.

1230
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:27,880
Yeah, because like I mean, I can see it like, you know, because like, what do you what do you love, I guess, about sort of connecting with people?

1231
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:35,880
What's your favorite thing to do? You know, because you're such a you love, I guess, really connecting and like scoping out people.

1232
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:39,880
What do you love about that so much?

1233
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:49,880
I think for me, it's a learning process. So I'm very curious of how other people are doing their lives, because I'm learning how I can do my life.

1234
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:54,880
And I think my whole life, I'll be learning how I can do my life. Maybe at the end, I'll be like, aha, got it.

1235
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:58,880
That's how you should do life in a good way. But I don't know, even this word should, I don't really believe it.

1236
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:08,880
So it's very interesting because I'm so curious, like everyone has made different choices, you know, on every level of like how to behave, of how to interact, of how to live.

1237
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:14,880
And it's like completely a choose your own adventure, you know, your life. And I find that fascinating.

1238
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:27,880
And also like questioning for me, it's so interesting, this idea of the society, you know, and because I'm moving culture quite often, you get this quite culturally relative perspective of basically everything.

1239
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:35,880
So it's very interesting to meet people and to try and understand like which things come from them personally, which thing come from the society.

1240
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:46,880
And for me, I'm always very curious of this on some level of like, how interesting, because then you can kind of start to see patterns like, ah, like other people are also thinking this in this space and in this reality right now.

1241
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:54,880
So when you're arriving in places with fresh eyes, I mean, or trying to keep fresh eyes after a while of being in a place, for me, this is very interesting.

1242
01:11:54,880 --> 01:12:03,880
And one of the things I really like when you're like talking to people and kind of drawing out, because there is something universal underneath all of it, you know.

1243
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:12,880
And that's what's kind of interesting. This thing of in some way we are all connected. So like how, where are the lines?

1244
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:18,880
And how people tell their own stories about themselves and how people draw their own lines.

1245
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:29,880
It's like something you were saying before about the traumatized artist idea that is quite interesting because it's a story that you're telling to yourself.

1246
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:38,880
And that's in some way even maybe as a justification, but definitely like as a story that you're narrating and everyone tells their own story very differently.

1247
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:43,880
And for me, that's really interesting how people are talking to themselves.

1248
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:54,880
Yeah, I think it's like, it's never like sort of the way the, yeah, it's very much like the way I view myself.

1249
01:12:54,880 --> 01:13:04,880
And, you know, I think over the years I've never really connected with Sydney on a lot of ways.

1250
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:12,880
And I think that came out of like just traveling, a lot of traveling, but I've been sort of like, I think I just stuck here because it was convenient.

1251
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:18,880
And I think had I told my younger self, I probably would have just left, you know, like hindsight's 20-20.

1252
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:34,880
But I mean, also I just like, yeah, I'm always about like, you know, meeting new people and going out and sort of like hearing, you know, like people's stories because I don't always like what society tells us to be like.

1253
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:39,880
I'm very like anti-camperlism and anti-structure.

1254
01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:45,880
I just think that, you know, we put labels to things that automatically go, well, that's easy.

1255
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,880
That's where you need to fit in your box and that's what society tells you.

1256
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:50,880
And I am terrible at fitting in boxes.

1257
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:52,880
I never have and never will.

1258
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:58,880
And I think, you know, even growing up, I noticed that getting older and older.

1259
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:05,880
And I think, you know, just the way I identify, the way I see the world through my eyes and then just like gauging people.

1260
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:06,880
I'm very good at gauging people.

1261
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:15,880
And I think then that puts, you know, like I used to trust people very easily, but now I'm very careful with my trust.

1262
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:20,880
Like I use it like very, like a key, which I love.

1263
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:26,880
And I think it comes to the same reason that I love telling certain types of stories.

1264
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:39,880
But yeah, it's like my huge love, I guess, for film and like performance based and stuff is kind of connecting to meeting and connecting and, you know,

1265
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:43,880
you know, like one on one side making people laugh, but making people feel and connect.

1266
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,880
Like it's why I love going, you know, I used to go to the art gallery alone.

1267
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:50,880
I used to like, I, you know, used to go to the theatre alone.

1268
01:14:50,880 --> 01:14:53,880
Like I used to just go and see film and theatre and stuff on my own.

1269
01:14:53,880 --> 01:15:00,880
Because I never really understood that anyone kind of got it to what I was feeling was the point of half these performance pieces and stuff like that.

1270
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:05,880
And I feel like a lot of people just liked mainstream, like mainstream, like Shakespeare and stuff.

1271
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:12,880
And I was just like, now there's more to like a lot of like, you know, weird art and, you know, like, you know, so and so called weird art.

1272
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:19,880
And like, I think like there was this really nice old lady who we dog sit for.

1273
01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:23,880
She's like 70 and she's in a very interesting life.

1274
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:29,880
And we were just talking about photography and I just was like, oh my God, you really like get what I love about photography.

1275
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:39,880
And she was like, she got me this book, which a lot she's like all about people and, you know, like and like just kind of like there's one which is based on like nude portraiture.

1276
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,880
And there's like others that are just based on portraiture and stuff.

1277
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:51,880
And I think it was like, oh, I love that because it just kind of tells a story about people and, you know, like with landscape and stuff because like I always say this with my photography.

1278
01:15:51,880 --> 01:16:01,880
I never alter anything. What you see is kind of what you get. And I really love that about it because, you know, like life is, you know, we're always trying to augment it or change it.

1279
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:05,880
And I think whether it's good or bad, it's like the imperfections of what I love.

1280
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:14,880
And I think that, you know, like everyone's flawed and I'm one of those people now who like as a kid, like had so much anxiety to really show all those.

1281
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:17,880
Oh my God, I'm like, you know, a war saw or anything like that.

1282
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:31,880
But now I'm just like, no, I have emotions and I think it's sort of getting rid of that toxic behaviors and stuff like, you know, that are ingrained in especially Australian culture and white culture, particularly to get rid of.

1283
01:16:31,880 --> 01:16:46,880
Because there's a lot of things that drive me mental about Australian white culture and the privilege that I guess is carried by us because it's just very, it's very interesting when us particularly like some people have like our own generation talk.

1284
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:51,880
And I'm like, how are you so blinkered vision about like the way society structured?

1285
01:16:51,880 --> 01:17:02,880
Like they're just like they've never walked outside of their own little comfort zone and I just get baffled by it. And I think there was actually really great challenge.

1286
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:10,880
And I thought like my whole family did when we were in lockdown, mum would organize like a movie night every week and everyone in the family got to pick.

1287
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:15,880
So we'd watch it and like this was back when my brother was, you know, still they're still over there.

1288
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:22,880
But like they were living in Germany, him and his wife and like we would set up, you know, like those watch alongs.

1289
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:27,880
And yeah, and like so Simon would pick a pick a film, which would be a foreign film.

1290
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:35,880
Sometimes I would pick a film, which would be a nineties film, you know, and we do just watch and we kind of like talk about it after what we liked and what we didn't like.

1291
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,880
And it was really interesting because like every Friday this would happen for like three months.

1292
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:50,880
I think we did this for and it was really nice because I think it just really got everyone out of like what we'd normally watch and what we were comfortable watching to kind of just be like everyone has different tastes.

1293
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:55,880
And that's kind of good to really explore.

1294
01:17:55,880 --> 01:18:08,880
And yeah, there was like a lot of films that we sort of realized we didn't know existed or, you know, like I guess like the film I remember particularly was the documentary on Netflix, which was the one child policy in China.

1295
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:10,880
Yeah.

1296
01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:17,880
And it was just really eye opening about like just that whole process.

1297
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:24,880
And yeah, it's just like having known quite a few like friends who have families have immigrated.

1298
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:43,880
And it's very interesting to hear their perspective of like, you know, just how life is and, you know, and growing up here as well like versus, you know, living their family living over there and I think that's like an eye opening situation that, you know, like we're at 8 billion people now.

1299
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:49,880
Like population sizes just massively increasing but apparently like, I think the birth rates down there.

1300
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:54,880
In Australia, just in the world's slowly going down like not I don't know what it's like in Australia.

1301
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:59,880
We just don't know what like we're 6 million people I think in Sydney alone.

1302
01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:03,880
Six or seven. Yeah, six or seven. Yes, it's growing.

1303
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:07,880
This is why I since I last had the statistic. Yeah, like in primary school.

1304
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:10,880
Yes. I mean, it's like four.

1305
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:17,880
Now it's why I was at 14 maybe 14 is the country. I have no idea. Yeah, it's it's you 24.

1306
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:23,880
There's some four involved in my memory. We're just slowly going up by 10.

1307
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:25,880
Stump.

1308
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:32,880
But I mean like, you know, where, I guess, for you,

1309
01:19:32,880 --> 01:19:39,880
because you're like, you know, I love that you're such an like, in the way it's a positive thing when I say this because it doesn't want to sound like that.

1310
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:48,880
But I love that you sort of see the world as an outsider and you know, like, you know, because did you ever feel like as a bit of the weird kid growing up?

1311
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:53,880
Well, yeah, I guess. But I mean, I was a kid in Hong Kong.

1312
01:19:53,880 --> 01:20:03,880
So everyone was expat or in my school, if it was like local kids, they were going to school with the expats in English.

1313
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:09,880
And everyone was from somewhere else or I definitely we definitely had Hong Kong kids in my class.

1314
01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:13,880
But now I'm thinking I don't remember why they would be.

1315
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:24,880
But yeah, anyway, it was a completely mixed bag. So like you had some like Hong Kong kids, some kids from India, some from very few from Australia, America, really from everywhere.

1316
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:28,880
And like the school celebrated Diwali and Chinese New Year and Christmas.

1317
01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:34,880
And it was so cool because you had like so many so many holidays. So everyone was weird in their own way.

1318
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:41,880
Yeah. But then it's like, OK, so everyone has got this diverse cultural thing going on, even if it was a British school.

1319
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:48,880
So like the underlying kind of mainstream culture was still British, British culture.

1320
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:53,880
So then you were just like based on your interests. So I was like, yeah, I love Pokemon. You love Pokemon.

1321
01:20:53,880 --> 01:21:00,880
We like to play yo-yo, yo-yos in our band. We love Tamagotchi. We can't play them anymore. So it was just like you're just a kid, you know, whatever.

1322
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:12,880
For me, it was more strange to move to Australia because I came here in boarding school and I had lived that life compared to here where you're in boarding school with people from the countryside.

1323
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:18,880
And I didn't really have the right accent or kind of background culturally at all.

1324
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:24,880
I remember getting in trouble in school because there was this kind of general knowledge quiz and they asked what the Murray was.

1325
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:30,880
And I was like, a surname. Apparently it's a river. I've learned now it's a river.

1326
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:37,880
But they thought I was being like facetious, you know, that I was being rude. And it was like, well, actually I'm correct because it was a surname.

1327
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:45,880
And then the river got named after some dude called Mr. Murray, you know, probably Mr. No, in this time of times.

1328
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:51,880
So technically I was actually correct. And I know I used to know a girl and her surname was Murray. So I was like, I feel I'm correct.

1329
01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:58,880
But no, so I got in trouble in school like for this, at least at the beginning until I adapted and understood how to fit in.

1330
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:07,880
But one thing you realize, I read some study of this that someone gave me once of third culture kids. So like kids who grew up in a different culture.

1331
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:18,880
You get pretty good at adapting. You assess a situation and you fit in. So it's more like a process of understanding as I got older how to stop doing that.

1332
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:31,880
How to stop just making it so that you fit in and being much more authentic, just being you and not adapting and shifting yourself so that you would kind of be the same as the others.

1333
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:37,880
But to allow like, no, like these are my interests and great. And this is how I behave.

1334
01:22:37,880 --> 01:22:45,880
And yeah, I mean, this is, I guess, part of being an adult that you realize, like, if people don't have time for your complexity, then they shouldn't be in your life.

1335
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:54,880
And that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, like within that, being nice to everyone as much as possible, because, you know, everyone's going through their own journey.

1336
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:59,880
Just be nice to people. Just be nice, guys. I mean, it's a simple ask. Be kind.

1337
01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:07,880
Yeah. I mean, like, that's really interesting as well. Like, yeah, I don't I sort of like.

1338
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:10,880
Why? How long were you in boarding school for?

1339
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:12,880
Four years. And then you just.

1340
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:16,880
And then my parents moved here. So I switched to being in the day school.

1341
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:18,880
Day school. The day school.

1342
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:19,880
The boarding and the day.

1343
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:20,880
The day.

1344
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:25,880
Yeah. Which was strange, because when you're boarding school, you're sleeping in the school in the night.

1345
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:30,880
So you have this weird, different relationship with the school because you see it strange hours.

1346
01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:33,880
I mean, obviously, technically, you're supposed to be asleep, but you might look out your window.

1347
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:40,880
Like, there might be a fire alarm. So you're outside at a weird hour where in the day school, you go home after it's finished.

1348
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:43,880
Maybe you have some like extra activity that you stay there for.

1349
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:45,880
But yeah, it was a different relationship. So it's weird.

1350
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:55,880
It's like, you know, when you say some things you should do in a certain order, no. So things flow, you're not disappointed.

1351
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:59,880
And I definitely went the wrong order. You should go deeper into a place, not more shallowly.

1352
01:23:59,880 --> 01:24:03,880
Yeah. Yeah. So that was that was interesting.

1353
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:06,880
I mean, and where did you where did you finally graduate?

1354
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:10,880
Which which school was the school that you graduated from here?

1355
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:14,880
Yeah. Which one was it?

1356
01:24:14,880 --> 01:24:17,880
It was this Ascombe in Edgecliff.

1357
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:22,880
Oh, I like Edgecliff.

1358
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:26,880
Yeah. It has a nice train station.

1359
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:28,880
I mean, they really they have they have great shops there.

1360
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:29,880
They do.

1361
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:35,880
I remember getting very good like what's it called? This meringue.

1362
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:37,880
Oh, OK.

1363
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:38,880
They're delicious.

1364
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:40,880
In the shape of a mouse.

1365
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:42,880
Oh, wow. They were cute.

1366
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:44,880
I remember those. They take me back.

1367
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:46,880
They don't do them anymore.

1368
01:24:46,880 --> 01:24:47,880
So cute.

1369
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:50,880
But no, like I'll I'll I think that's really interesting.

1370
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:57,880
And like and then sort of like doing uni here and then kind of like doing it partially.

1371
01:24:57,880 --> 01:24:58,880
I used to finish it.

1372
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:02,880
Like how long did the uni degree end up taking?

1373
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:05,880
I'm really bad with numbers on time.

1374
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:09,880
So let me think. You've done first aid.

1375
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:13,880
That's image based scheduling. It's different.

1376
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:17,880
So let's see. There were two years that I was like solidly in Australia.

1377
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:25,880
And then it was the third year, I think, that I was on this exchange,

1378
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:28,880
which meant that it became four years, something like this.

1379
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:31,880
Like that the fourth year was kind of I was still in China,

1380
01:25:31,880 --> 01:25:36,880
but doing some random subjects to try and close this extra semester.

1381
01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:39,880
Yeah, maybe even five because there was some lost subjects,

1382
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:42,880
because you know, when you do an Erasmus or in a university exchange,

1383
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:46,880
sometimes you don't pass the subject because it was in a different language.

1384
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:51,880
I had one like this that at the Chinese University, I wasn't studying Chinese at university.

1385
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:54,880
I was studying other things in Chinese with the Chinese students.

1386
01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:59,880
Yeah. So I just at some point, like I just didn't really understand

1387
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:02,880
how to log into the system to like change my course.

1388
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:05,880
I was in this one that was supposed to be like super great.

1389
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:08,880
I went once and I was like, this is shit. Am I even in the right room?

1390
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:11,880
Because everything was being sent to me on these Chinese style schedules and in Chinese.

1391
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:15,880
And I was just not coping at some point.

1392
01:26:15,880 --> 01:26:18,880
So I think I was supposed to be doing four subjects. I was doing three.

1393
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:21,880
I was turning up to three. So I passed those and whatever the fourth one was

1394
01:26:21,880 --> 01:26:23,880
that I never actually found where it was.

1395
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:26,880
I definitely looked for it for the first two weeks and I was like, well, that's weird.

1396
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:28,880
Just like this doesn't exist.

1397
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:31,880
Obviously doesn't exist. And obviously it did exist. And I didn't do it.

1398
01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:34,880
So yeah, I had to pick up a subject. So yeah, that's why it took longer as well.

1399
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:39,880
There was some random confusions along the way.

1400
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:41,880
And now you're fully graduated.

1401
01:26:41,880 --> 01:26:44,880
Fully graduated and graduated the masters as well. So that's cool.

1402
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:47,880
Wow. When did you graduate? When did you finish the masters?

1403
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:49,880
In Bosnia. That's what I was doing there.

1404
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:51,880
Yeah, but what year?

1405
01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:52,880
2017.

1406
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:54,880
There you go. So you've been completely since 2017.

1407
01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:57,880
I'm fully fledged useless.

1408
01:26:57,880 --> 01:26:59,880
Unemployable.

1409
01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:01,880
Please employ. Please employ.

1410
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:03,880
Here's my CD. Coming to you now through the cellways.

1411
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:05,880
Yeah.

1412
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:07,880
Oh my God. And then you're back for it.

1413
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:09,880
And then going back to Italy.

1414
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:12,880
So I'm back until the end of Jan.

1415
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:15,880
And I actually had hoped to stay longer. I wanted to stay until March.

1416
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:20,880
But I am finally getting a work visa in Italy.

1417
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:24,880
An official very good status.

1418
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:26,880
But it takes so long to make.

1419
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:30,880
So I went to the office in, let's say, October.

1420
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:33,880
And they were like, okay, you just have to go in the post office.

1421
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:36,880
And it should be that like in two weeks you get the next appointment and then it's done.

1422
01:27:36,880 --> 01:27:39,880
Okay. I go in the post office and then I, okay. So your appointment is.

1423
01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:43,880
And okay. This post office was so funny. Like so funny.

1424
01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:52,880
They have this kind of crazy mix there of like very old school style post office with like mega, mega modern technology.

1425
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:56,880
So the guy who was working there, his hands were like floating over the keypad.

1426
01:27:56,880 --> 01:27:58,880
Like he's been doing this since the 80s.

1427
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:03,880
And it was very like elegant, his gestures, you know, like very beautiful somehow.

1428
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:07,880
And then he was kind of like boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, like super modern.

1429
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:10,880
But at the same time, this like very strange, like print of fax machine,

1430
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:16,880
but it's like very specific kind of official document paper going in and out like on this one machine, like looping.

1431
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:19,880
It was like being in Brazil, you know, it's like how you imagine the future.

1432
01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:26,880
This film, Brazil, like how you imagine what a visa office in the future could look like.

1433
01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:29,880
It was so funny. Anyway, out pops this paper like boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.

1434
01:28:29,880 --> 01:28:33,880
And it turns out my appointment is not in two weeks, but is in February.

1435
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:36,880
So I have to go back for this appointment, which is kind of so annoying.

1436
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:39,880
And I was really like, are you sure we can't change it until two weeks time?

1437
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:42,880
They were asking me like, do you have any contacts in the ministry?

1438
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:46,880
No, I don't. Do you? Asking to my work.

1439
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:49,880
But yeah, so I'm going back for this. Oh, awesome.

1440
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:54,880
Appointment to be officially visaed for like two months.

1441
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:58,880
And then it already expires because it took them so long to do it. Oh, my God.

1442
01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:00,880
But yeah, it's a bit frustrating.

1443
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:03,880
But that's exciting to say the least at some point. Yeah.

1444
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:08,880
I don't know. I just got back. So I really don't want to think about leaving because it's like so nice to be back.

1445
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:11,880
But and it's weird that I'm saying that because it's true.

1446
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:16,880
Like the me of like five years ago would be like, so how many hours until I leave now? Yeah.

1447
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:20,880
Yeah, it's a good situation. It's nice to have you back.

1448
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:24,880
Yeah. But let's see. Also, I mean, right now, my work is based there.

1449
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:29,880
Yeah. So kind of following the natural flow of how things go.

1450
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:33,880
That's where this project is and maybe subsequent projects.

1451
01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:36,880
And it would be nice to come in Australia at some point to make work here.

1452
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:42,880
Yeah. But I don't know. It's I don't think if I would ever necessarily.

1453
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:45,880
I don't know. It's a hard question. Like, do you move somewhere because you like it?

1454
01:29:45,880 --> 01:29:48,880
Or do you follow where your projects are taking you?

1455
01:29:48,880 --> 01:29:52,880
Because at some point you might have to make an actual action of like, OK,

1456
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:56,880
I want to be based here because this is the kind of lifestyle I like and that I want.

1457
01:29:56,880 --> 01:30:02,880
And let's find projects to do here instead of like following where the projects take,

1458
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:07,880
which means that you just have to have a random base somewhere that maybe you don't actually like the lifestyle there.

1459
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:10,880
And then when there's no projects, you're stuck in a place that you don't like.

1460
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,880
So this is what I'm trying to figure out at the moment, like how to combine the things in a good way.

1461
01:30:14,880 --> 01:30:20,880
Yeah. I'm sure you'll get there eventually. But, you know, like that's that's the age old question, isn't it?

1462
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:24,880
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's like there's no real solid answer.

1463
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:28,880
Yeah. I mean, I think everyone finds their own solution.

1464
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:33,880
Yeah. And also depends like where you have your people and where you have your community, like we were saying before.

1465
01:30:33,880 --> 01:30:38,880
Yeah. But again, you can build community as you were saying, you can make new friends.

1466
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:42,880
And it just it's connecting with people who are on the same level as you. Yeah.

1467
01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:47,880
And this is also possible. Yeah. Just find the people that love it like you do.

1468
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:52,880
It's really like the go. It's passionate, passionate and strange.

1469
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:56,880
It's like weird, passionate forever foreigners like. Yeah.

1470
01:30:56,880 --> 01:31:00,880
No, actually, it's good to have a mix. Like if I'm this forever foreigner character,

1471
01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:03,880
it's nice to have a mix of friends who are much more rooted.

1472
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:07,880
Some of them, some of them are more. Yeah, I don't know.

1473
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:12,880
And I like to have this kind of varied cast of characters that on certain levels you're connecting.

1474
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:16,880
You're each like very individual and very different to one another. Yeah.

1475
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:19,880
Yeah, I really, I really like that. I love that.

1476
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:22,880
I love the way you think. Thanks.

1477
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:24,880
I think way too much. No, it's good.

1478
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:30,880
I just think it's very unique and I and it's very like not dissimilar to my own brain.

1479
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:35,880
I always find that like unique when I look at people like, oh, there's traits in there that I know.

1480
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:38,880
I know this twisty dark passageway.

1481
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:43,880
I've been down this road before.

1482
01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:46,880
But I think that's a perfect point to wrap us up.

1483
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:49,880
Thank you so much for joining me. My pleasure.

1484
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,880
Where can people find you? Where can they stalk you on the internet?

1485
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:55,880
Probably on Instagram is the best one. EMJ51.

1486
01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:57,880
Five one. What's the 51?

1487
01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:02,880
I like five and I like one. And together they're a pretty nice number.

1488
01:32:02,880 --> 01:32:09,880
And actually it's very, it's always been my lucky number because I like five, which is the number of freedom and one, the number of like individual independent.

1489
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:12,880
Also like three, which is the number of creativity.

1490
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:15,880
But usually you only need two numbers for logging into stuff.

1491
01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:18,880
So if you add a three in that becomes messy.

1492
01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:24,880
And I was looking the other day at something and I understood that that's the latitude that I was born on.

1493
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:26,880
51 degrees north.

1494
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:27,880
Zero, 51.

1495
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:32,880
I was like, that's so weird that it's been my lucky number all my life. And it's actually the latitude of where I was born.

1496
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:35,880
Just very like a nice twist.

1497
01:32:35,880 --> 01:32:40,880
Serendipitous. I accidentally choose the correct lucky number.

1498
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:42,880
That's amazing. Yeah.

1499
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:43,880
That's incredible.

1500
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:47,880
But anyway, that's where you can find me. Insta-GG.

1501
01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:49,880
The Gigi.

1502
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:54,880
And if you want to go and check out more episodes of The Things We Do, you can check them out on Apple and Spotify.

1503
01:32:54,880 --> 01:32:57,880
I'll be speaking with another guest next week and I'll speak to you later.

1504
01:32:57,880 --> 01:33:26,880
Goodbye.