Welcome to LITE Bites, an occasional podcast
from Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence
at the University of Leeds. Episodes will be
hosted by members of the LITE team. And we'll
be showcasing the scholarship of teaching and
learning from across the university. Hello everyone
and welcome to another LITE Bites podcast. I'm
Hayley Bullard from the Leeds Institute for Teaching
Excellence. I'm joined today by Alison and Claire
who have just completed their LITE Fellowship
and Sally who was a student partner on their
project. The project was titled Stepping Up and
Standing Out, supporting international postgraduates
to make the most of their year in Leeds. And
I'm excited to have you guys here because this
was one of the first projects that I supported
fellows with when I first joined LITE a few
years ago. So it's really nice to hear what you
found and how it went. So shall we start by just
introducing yourselves and saying what you do
at the university? Yeah, hello. So I'm Alison,
Alison Leslie, and I'm a lecturer in English
for academic purposes in the Language Centre.
which is part of the School of Languages, Cultures
and Societies, but I also work in the School
of Sociology and Social Policy. And I design,
lead and teach on a variety of pre - and in -sessional
programmes which prepare or support students
with their academic study in the discipline.
And I also lead the core module on intercultural
communication and global citizenship for the
Horizon Study Year Abroad. Great. And I'm Claire
Wright. I'm Professor of Linguistics and Language
Teaching, also in the School of Languages, Cultures
and Societies. And I mainly teach our MA students
doing courses such as linguistics or linguistics
for language teaching. I started out like Alison
as an academic English teacher, but I've always
been fascinated at what might help people's confidence
and motivation for communicating effectively
in a range of languages. So at least now in my
teaching and my research, I'm working on including
student voices in how to help them master academic
writing, ensuring ethical use of generative AI,
how to build good speaking and listening skills,
and then trying to see how that relationship
to academic attainment is associated with more
confidence in... reaching out to make friends,
dealing with intercultural differences they may
find if they come from different cultural backgrounds
and what just helps them feel that they can have
a good time and succeed during their year here
at Leeds. I'm Sally Heyer. I was an MA student
in 2023 and 2024 where I met Alison on one of
my, actually one of my very first events. As
a postgraduate student, and that was two years
ago. So after I graduated from the University
of Leeds, I very briefly worked with foundation
year students for both the University of Leeds
and Leeds Beckett. And now I work at Nexus at
the University of Leeds, and I support a program
called Innovative Entrepreneurs. which is designed
for early stage business founders from underrepresented
groups and to give them the guidance and the
help that they need to accelerate their business.
Great. So Alison and Claire, what sort of kicked
you off of starting this project and what sparked
your interest in this project? So I was motivated
to do a light research project when I met Claire.
I think we were at a... university student education
event. And we found ourselves sharing similar
experiences and concerns about internationalisation,
given that our experience of working with international
students predominantly. So particularly, we were
both interested in how we support international
PGT students and make them feel they have pedagogical
value to the university in the short time they
are with us. And I think we just heard then about
Light. Light were... probably promoting these
fellowships. And we felt that through that together,
we should and could try to do something about
it and stop whinging. Yeah, that's right. You
know, after 25 years of teaching international
students in various forms, it was wonderful to
find Alison and realise how much her sense of
her values and ideas about supporting international
students. more effectively, chimed so well with
my own. You know, we've both been in the business
of supporting international students. And we
knew that actually Leeds was a pretty good place
compared to some of the institutions I've worked
in at times. But while there can be a lot of
good advice out there, there can be a disconnect
with students who may either not know about the
advice or feel in some way. that it's tricky
to navigate their route to taking up their advice
or the advice is framed in such a way that it's
quite opaque, if you like, maybe not really in
fitting with the students' own senses of what
they know how to reflect on, identify what they
need and then be able to choose the best way
forward for them. So I'd been involved in light
a couple of times, but previously I'd done some
I use the light network to work on how we could
help share best practice around research -based
learning again that goes back to my interest
in how to ensure that MA students for example
when they come to do their their dissertations
and their projects these big independent pieces
of of study are on their own over the summer
how how to supervise them well how to understand
the needs that international students may have
and so I think you know I'd already had some
experience from that about the the The challenges
of navigating that kind of expectation of self
-efficacy, of, to be blunt, the sink or swim
mentality that sometimes students told me they
faced. And sadly, sometimes the students who
we heard about needing real serious help after
they were beginning to sink quite badly. I said,
if we'd known earlier. We could have done more
to help. Why didn't you reach out and let us
know? Oh, well. So I think it's for me, it was
finding someone like Alison who was very practically
minded and really expert and aware of what to
do with students on a on a weekly or ongoing
basis to give them these tools. And I think that
chimed well with my sort of existential doubt
as to what it was that could be done. And turn
the way of thinking from we just provide advice
and then expect people to go and find it into,
no, let's work with students to see what that
could feel like in a way that was more productive
and more authentic for students. Great. So it's
lovely to hear that finding somebody to collaborate
with is something that's helped back those ideas
and bring that on. Sally, what interested you
or motivated you to get involved in the project
as a student? Yeah, there was a moment at the
event I just mentioned two years ago when I started
my MA where I stepped into a lecture theatre
and just looked at every other student that had
begun their master's studies with me in the School
of Sociology and Social Policy. I was thinking
to myself, OK, that's different. The degree of
internationalisation at UK universities was very
visible. It was something that I've never experienced
because in Germany, where I did my undergraduate
degree and where I'm from, we do have a certain
degree of internationalization, but it's not
as pronounced as in the UK for different reasons.
So I did then start talking to the other students
and I sort of turned into the person that students
went to for advice. which I don't know how I
got to be that person because we were all in
the same situation. But this network of advice
just developed and there was one person that
I'm still in contact with and we exchanged a
lot of knowledge about our courses, what we think
lecturers want from us, what we think, you know,
this assignment means and all of these things.
And then when Alison was inviting students to
participate in this research. I participated
because I wanted to share my own experience so
that it may benefit other students in the future
or also university staff so that they can understand
international students' experiences and meaningful,
informed their practices. So could you give listeners
an overview of the research design and how you
went about it? Did everything go to plan or were
there some bumps in the road? What was your experience
of that? Well, I think I've always heard, especially
in sociology, that good research design has plenty
of bumps. So I think that's inevitable. We were
keen to use a variety of mixed methods to collect
our data with the student voice being central.
I think Claire and I both come from a very much
a sort of qualitative research background. But
most importantly, when we were doing our sort
of literature review, And looking at what else
was going on, we were very aware that we didn't
want to duplicate what was already there. So
we were aware through our reading that there
was plenty of literature on barriers to inclusion
and success for international students. And there
was almost a sort of call for, you know, let's
do something about the barriers. Let's not keep
talking about the barriers because that doesn't
really help. But how do we address the barriers
is the next step. We were also very aware that
there were a lot of student, and Sally might
be able to speak to this, a lot of student voice
surveys in the university, you know, saying,
oh, you know, we value your voice, tell us what
you think. And although that data was useful
when we could get hold of it, because a lot of
it is quite difficult to find, it doesn't feel
that it's always actually then put into kind
of practice. So we did use surveys at the start
of the project in the first two years, but they
were mostly really as a kind of benchmark measure
just to get a sort of temperature check of, you
know, obviously we were coming to the research
with quite a few sort of hypotheses that we wanted
to test, assumptions based on our own observations
of what was going on. But we wanted to just sort
of test those. So at the beginning, it was very
much sort of, you know, using thematic analysis,
wasn't it, to identify kind of key themes that
we then wanted to explore. But I think our main
and most valuable method, which developed over
the course of the project, and we didn't necessarily
set out to use, was co -creation. focus groups
with students. So, you know, like all good empirical
science, you find out exactly what the scale
of the problem is and then you try and come up
with good solutions. But I think the real gift
to us was having the time and the space of the
three year. So, you know, we are very grateful
to Light for giving us that extended time because
it allowed us to, A, confirm and validate that,
yeah, what our students were feeling was very
much along the lines of existing knowledge. But
it gave us a space to then work out how to interpret
it in more nuanced ways and being able to have
one or two rounds of the student focus groups.
We had a chance to probe in more depth. So one
of the things that was really great as well was
having. originally started rather simplistically,
perhaps by saying, we'll do a survey and then
we'll do a focus group. What we realised and
we had time to do was to say, what do the students
show us by some activities that they could use
to interpret their experience? And one of the
best exercises that I think was a real turning
point for us, wasn't it, Alison, was where, and
this was your idea, we got students to write
post -it notes of at what point in the year.
They were taking up the different kinds of advice
that, you know, going back to our original research
question, do the students know what advice is
available and are they taking it up? And if not,
why not? That was our core question. And so we
got the students to write in these post -it notes.
What advice are you taking up? Do you know where
to go? And when in the year do you do this? And
we realised that, oh, good. Yes, induction does
work. Students are told things and they seem
to remember occasionally that they can go to
see their personal tutor or go to the library
or take up these supportive resources. But we
were talking to them, what, in about March. And
we were thinking again, you know, for the future
about the summer and about this complex work
of the dissertation. And suddenly this idea of
knowing where to go and knowing when to ask petered
out. And there was this yawning void of the summer,
which I knew already was it was a potential problem
point for students. And it was really clear the
students. really really didn't know how well
to use their time over the summer when the the
structured teaching gives out and so i think
it just that a practical activity conveyed to
us much more clearly than than a sort of thematic
analysis of surveys would have done I mean Hayley
you you helped us with those surveys and we it
was some amazing data that did come out but I
think for me that that visual practical activity
of recognizing the fading away of confidence
and of knowledge about the process. And we've
captured that as a single infographic that I'm
now taking around to other staff to go, look,
see, the students don't know. Look at how lonely,
look how isolated they feel in the summer. And
it's very easy for staff to go, ah, that's where
we need to focus, you know. And I think it's
that sense of moving from relying on... surveying
interview as typical techniques to get out what
students think give them an activity and I think
that then led us and gave us more confidence
that by going to the co -creation workshops we
were pretty confident then that students knew
exactly what it was they wanted to tell us and
that making something very simple very visual
would be much more effective than here's another
set of paragraphs with some student words so
I mean I think I really want to focus on on the
transformational and positive sense of dealing
with messy project work, our plans kept changing.
It took a long time to get ethical approval to
get started. But that was OK. You know, I think
we rolled with that. I think, like, you know,
central support was very helpful to keep us going.
For me, it was really transformational to see
that we could enable students to play this more
central role in the research. And I think...
Because every time we talk about it with Sally
and with others, the student's voice is first.
I think that helps create real authenticity and
real impact into our messaging and make sure
that our outcomes are taken seriously. To comment
on what it's like to be a student and to be invited
to research, I think it cannot be underestimated
how many survey requests we get as students.
especially at the beginning. And I did a degree
in social research, so I'm very interested in,
you know, questionnaires, looking what questions
people ask. But I found it, at one point, I was
not even looking at them anymore. I was thinking,
do I really, you know, is this really worth my
time? Just seeing another survey invitation stressed
me out. I can't explain why. But it was just
too much. And I think it is obviously, and that
is important because we do need to think about
our resources and our own time as researchers.
In Freshers' Week, there are all these companies
that have their little stalls around the Student
Union building. They all want you to fill out
a survey as well so that you can win, I don't
know. A year worth of pizza at Domino's. I'm
making this one up. Other pizza brands are available.
Yes. Oh, sorry. Yes. Edit that out. But so these
companies that are around the student union building,
they, you know, they often come to you like,
oh, would you just take like two minutes to fill
out the survey? So it is a lot. And you do get
tired of it, even as a social research. person
gets tired of it. It was actually then quite
good to be part of research that was more qualitative,
that was creative as well. It wasn't just an
interview and it wasn't just a focus group because
you do get that also, not as often, but it is
usually the same interview situation. So that
visual element that Claire and Alison mentioned,
that was very... Very good, because it also makes
you to it invites you to think about your time
at university differently to visualize it. So
these these methods are I appreciate they are
more time intense. The data is not as straightforward,
one might say, and it is more effort. But I think
they are something that students as research
partners also appreciate. So it's sort of learning
how to do research as action participation. Yeah,
I think, you know, this is a really important
thing that as a ethical value around how to do
research is something I would feel very strongly
about after our project, which I hadn't appreciated
before. So we tell our students when we're teaching
them about doing research, you know, the ethics
of getting informed consent. This is this participant's
time. You know, they've got no obligation to
help you. You're not there just to extract information
from them, because, of course, you know, in today's
society, all data is information. Information
is monetizable or, you know, important in other
ways. And I think this idea that ethical and
valued research activity is highly participatory
with. an object a task outcome that is independent
of the research project of value to the participant
so you know we were framing these co -creation
workshops come and learn the the the technical
skill to do a prezi do an infographic learn about
this skill learn about that skill and i have
to say you know the helix facilities were were
great and they and the digital education staff
that helped us um really made that true you know
we weren't just dangling a carrot to say look
there'll be something in it for you Actually,
well, I hope, you know, it did feel like a positive
activity experience. And also one that hopefully
was more inclusive as well. Yeah. Wonderful.
So I guess what did you find out and what did
you learn from doing all these wonderful activities?
Well, as Claire has already mentioned, many of
the findings did confirm what we already knew.
basically from principles of inclusive practice,
which is very much sort of at the forefront of
what we're doing, isn't it? It informs our practice.
So, you know, we're not, we were aware of not
falling into this trap of sort of essentialising
international students ourselves. So a lot of
what we do is about sort of just making all students
feel that they can thrive, such as one of the
things that came out of the data, I think, was
Repeatedly, students were sort of saying how
much they valued staff who take the time to get
to know them as individuals and sort of show
rather than tell them how to do things. And then
for me personally, particularly sort of towards
the end of the project with our third iteration,
I guess because we were sort of perhaps. shaping
our activities a little bit more to make sure
that that student voice was really really coming
out I was particularly struck by the counter
narrative that our student partners were able
to articulate to that deficit discourse which
as I said we sometimes found ourselves using
unintentionally so I think I remember that in
some of our promotional information about the
project I think we'd sort of said about you know
the barriers that you might face when you struggling
on your masters and some of our students corrected
us didn't they and said can we please use more
inclusive language more sort of positive language
such as talking about how we navigate our masters
and then the resources that came out well we're
going to talk about the resources a little bit
later but the resources that came out of that
third year were very much then almost flipping
that deficit narrative to it being us as staff.
Who are the ones that have that deficit? That
for me, I think, was the sort of really sort
of the strongest takeaway message that I've got
from doing this project. Yeah. So we've learnt
stuff as well about, you know, even though we
see ourselves as being, I hate the word expert
anyway, but I'll use it. Experienced. Experienced,
yeah, in supporting international students. You
know, I think we were open to sort of having
to rethink. what what uh you know the way that
we talk about as well and we've got colleagues
as well who are very good at helping us with
that indeed you know I think a lot of research
starts with what's the problem then what's the
solution to the problem and when you're dealing
with experiences of international students, the
danger is they are the problem or their struggles
are the problem. And of course, that immediately,
even if you're trying to be lovely and helpful,
that starts off with this inauthentic, non -inclusive
premise. I think we've had a good set of outcomes
in the sense of people who perhaps haven't. really
ask themselves very often in the past how can
my students thrive in my classroom as opposed
to why is someone failing you know we are starting
to help frame discourses where that is becoming
a better way of framing experiences um how can
i ensure that that resources are fit you know
fit student needs as opposed to i think the solution
is x and I'm going to tell people where to find
that solution rather than you know working together
so i think um If anybody doesn't yet know why
students find it quite complex to navigate their
masters, please come and talk to us because we
do now have lots of experience of where we can
act as a bridge to students who, you know, sadly
have to go very quickly after one year. But,
you know, their voices, their experiences are
sustained. And so, you know, we can act as a
bridge to try and help people. reframe their
own attitudes. So I think the main findings for
us, yes, we have data, we have survey outcomes,
we have lovely thematic analyses, but primarily
we have these infographics, which we hope represent
a different way of framing your life as a teacher,
as an educator, as a provider of services in
this rapidly changing world of higher education
in ways that are appropriate, authentic. and
respectful of the students as partners in the
experience. Yes, for me, what I thought was very
interesting was, firstly, I learned a lot from
other students there. So the people that I was
interacting with were mostly people from China.
And I think this is something that people also
need to keep in mind is that international students
are not one big blob. We also have... perceptions
of one another. I'm a person from Western Europe,
so I have certain perceptions about China, about
people from China, whether I like it or not.
I'm framed by certain narratives as well, as
they are as well. They have certain perceptions
of Germany, of the UK. So it was very interesting
to sort of, yeah, compare our perceptions of
the UK and then also to hear from people what
they think Germany is like. So I found that exchange
very, very fruitful. And we also have a lot of
things in common. But I think that is the challenge
of this research, is to talk about a group that
is a group for a reason, because they share certain
characteristics, but also distinguish within
the group and not have this blueprint of, okay,
this is an international student, you do this,
and then it will be fine, because that is obviously...
not the case. So I think the differences are
worth highlighting to make sure research and
practice can deliver positive outcomes for as
many people, for as many international students
as possible. I found that very, very fascinating.
And then secondly, I was just very grateful,
again, I did an MA in social research, so I was
very grateful that Alison and Claire were so
transparent about their research, that they...
showed me a method that I've never heard of I
found the method very fascinating and it was
just you know a look behind the research curtain
so to speak so that was really really interesting
and it was just interesting to see what it looked
like in practice and it was right before I did
my dissertation as well so that has very much
influenced my own dissertation as well brilliant
so um what sort of changes would you like to
see as a result and has there already been anything
affected from your work yes well I'm very glad
to to say that we've already managed to do some
reaching out I think as I've uh we've alluded
to at various times through this this podcast
what we were essentially starting off trying
to do was to answer the question of what would
the best way be for international students to
access particularly academic resources to help
their studies? But very rapidly, we could see
the connection between managing personal time
and managing life on campus and in the city was
fundamentally connected to academic engagement
and that sense of confidence of navigating your
master's. So Sally and her team put together
this fantastic infographic called Mastering Your
Master's. And I think that... alongside our summary
sheet of making it easier for students to find
their way to different kinds of academic resources.
They were the starting point for what we've been
really pleased to put together in the end of
the range of student co -created resources. These
are all available open access. I think I'm right
in saying what, six infographics now and a short
Prezi presentation. So these are very easy to
circulate and they're very effective in distilling
key messages. There's one message per infographic,
but we've got these infographics particularly
around what it's like to picture the year, what
it's like to settle in the first in those first
two, three really intense weeks, how to access
the academic literacy resources, how to. build
confidence in talking to staff in ways which
for many people, it may be different to what
they're used to. You know, at least we have a
very informal kind of way of talking and that
may not be familiar for many. And then another
one, which is, you know, as Sally's alluded to,
what staff can bear in mind as they are taking
a more inclusive approach to. getting to know
their student groups. So these are really easy
to circulate. They're very effective at distilling
these key messages. As I said earlier, universities
are going through such a lot of rapid change.
Some, we hope, will end up ensuring better practice
comes to the fore. And what we wanted was some
very simple tools that we could ensure people
working with international cohorts could support
them successfully, even if it was just to confirm
that what they were doing was already good practice.
So we've made them all open access. They are
available for anyone to download and adapt as
they wish. They've already gone into school induction
packs. I've used them in my school. They've gone
into other schools in my faculty. Alison, you've
been using them in your faculty. They've gone
around the university union and the student experience
team. So both student groups and professional
staff are also aware of how the messaging can
connect to other messages that they may want
to. to take forward, very much focusing on the
idea that any activities that are student -centred
can benefit from referring to them. We've shared
them in workshops with other institutions. You
know, Leeds has already done quite a lot, but
what we found was that it was happening in sort
of different disconnected places. So one of the
things we've been trying to do is make sure it's
really easy to connect that the best practice
is going on. Other institutions where they may
be sort of getting into that stage. that they
can use these to guide what they plan. So in
terms of institutional resource planning and
strategic planning, we've had workshops done
with a couple of places that already say how
valuable they've been. We are running personal
tutor training. So it leads, we have academic
personal tutors, one member of staff for every
student. And we are running two sessions a year.
We've done it now for a year. We're going to
do it again. So that we can say to personal tutors,
this is what students tell us matters. So that
as you're thinking about your tutor meetings,
don't necessarily come with a preconceived list
that you must adapt, you must change, you must
become like, you know, a typical lead student,
because that's not really how it should be. This
is how can students use the skills they have?
How can they make more of them? How can they
not feel, you know, perhaps as adrift as... The
deficit model tends to treat them, but see them
as skilled people bringing life experiences and
able to build on them more. So, yeah, we're very
pleased that we've already had plenty of ways
to embed them in. We're I think I'll say a bit
later about other events that we're speaking
at. But Sally, you were part of the new light
incubator launch with is taking student partners
as the key message. That may have already been
planned regardless of our project, but we're
really pleased that our project synchronises
so well and that, you know, you were a very key
part of the launch of that incubator focus. And
I think your experiences gave people the hope
and the confidence that, yeah, OK, this can really
work. Yeah, thank you. That was my impression
as well, is that people were very keen on having
a pedagogical practice that is working for students.
and is helping them to make the most of themselves
in a way. And what I would like to see as a result
of, you know, Alison's and Claire's work and
more projects like this is I would like more
of that, more that the experiences and the input
of international students influence practice
and policy to a greater extent. Because there's
still a lot of talk about international students
without meaningful contribution from international
students. This is partly because of a dominant
and harmful narrative that is going around. But
it just needs to be said very clearly that international
students are a part of the student body. And
if you say we want a university that is influenced
by students, you do need to influence international
students. trivial as that sounds, but they are
your students as well and you need to work with
them and not against them. And I think it is
a challenge too because everybody has a narrative
about students, whether it is home students or
international students. So I do appreciate that
it's a lot of work, but I hope that when we work
together with international students, it can
change and it can help to inform the practice.
I really hope in a wider picture that, you know,
this perception of international students as
cash cows for the higher education can be, yeah,
can be undone to a certain extent. It is sadly
still a very dominant narrative. It is peddled
in public discourse. It has been mentioned just
yesterday at the Labour Party conference. with
the introduction of the student levy, which is
supposed to finance home students, which is robbing,
I don't know how the English idiom goes, the
international student experience. But you can't
just take money from one student to pay the other.
That is not a sustainable model of finance. But
because of this dominant narrative of international
students financing the whole sector, it seems
to be okay. And this perception of oh, they just
want my money. I think if that gains ground with
international students as well, that can be very,
very harmful. It can influence teaching experience,
it can influence learning experience, and it
can create a very harmful classroom environment.
So I hope that, you know, this research and people
working on these things can help to combat that.
And I do have to say that, you know, this...
It's not what I've experienced. I've never worked
with anybody as a student or now that I'm a member
of staff at the University of Leeds, I've never
met a single person who I thought had that perception.
So it is, I don't know where it's coming from,
this narrative about international students,
because international students are also not responsible
for the choices that have created this environment.
I think we are all very aware that. This is an
environment we all try to navigate as staff and
as international students. So I think what we
should maybe more talk about is what a compliment
it is for UK universities that people come here,
you know, from all around the world for the first
time leaving, you know, a very comfortable environment
maybe behind, putting themselves. you know, in
the situation challenging themselves like that.
It is a great compliment for UK universities
and it is due to the work that colleagues have
done. So I think we shouldn't take this for granted
and I hope that research like this can help higher
education colleagues to continue to build on
this and that it empowers them to counter these
harmful dominant narratives I mentioned earlier
and that it can help them build, yeah, the pedagogical
practice. And that's exactly why we keep inviting
Sally to all of these spaces. Because one of
the changes that, you know, we are, I think we'd
really like to see is the university modelling
how internationalisation should be or international
education. It's very easy. As Sally has alluded
to, it's very easy to get lots of international
bums on seats, to put it crudely. But that's
not being an international university. We've
all got to work hard at making it feel, you know,
a community where we can all kind of benefit
from each other's kind of perspectives and what
we bring to that. Yeah. I suspect that some of
our colleagues, you know, for example, thinking
of academic stuff will be horrified at the implication
that, you know, they are promoting an implicit
bias when they sit around going, oh, those students
are such hard work and they won't engage. And
it doesn't matter what good advice I tell them,
they never listen. And I think just unpacking
all of that and reframing that into your classroom
should be a joy. for those students across all
sorts of backgrounds and you know to to to thrive
and to flourish in and wouldn't that be the best
outcome for your module for your program so students
going away from it saying i can't wait for other
people to come and and experience what we've
experienced and I think you know we we are I'm
I'm all for finding the positive in change I
know not everybody necessarily embraces change
that much. For me, I don't think it is actually
change to think about good teaching practice
as inclusive. But I know that it does feel as
though there's a lot of change happening. And
I think that's why we've gone from trying to
capture some data around how to make students
engage with academic literacy and associated.
academic activities um more productive we've
we've flipped almost entirely into this is about
promoting values of warm welcome empathy equal
inclusivity and therefore going back to a vision
of education that you know perhaps we've slightly
lost sight of it's too easy thinking about home
students as well to see the universe is as promoting
a package approach where you know all our all
we have to do is just deliver the package in
a suitably commercially appealing way and the
bums on seats will come and they will go and
and it has engaged our hearts and minds at all
and I you know I would be very sad if Leeds was
associated with that kind of bundle approach
to education I think there's lots of good practice
of education here and you know light is going
to be one of the the beacons of promoting so
much of good practice but even I think even with
light getting what is known through research
at light, out into changing practices. I think
that is going to be an opportunity that has been
perhaps a bit slow for the institution to respond
to in the past. And there's loads and loads of
good stuff that light has been able to create
in terms of a channel of knowledge. And I really
hope that the future way forward is for that
to be disseminated and engaged with and embedded
at the heart of all that we do. Yeah, and I hope
so. And I like the idea of capturing hearts and
minds, you know, and that's one of the things
that comes down to practice, isn't it, in pedagogy.
You've already mentioned that you've done some
outputs, some posters and things like that. And
I hope we can attach them to the show notes as
well for people to have a look at. Is there any
other outputs you'd like people to know about?
Well, we've got a recent publication, haven't
we? So the student... Engagement in Higher Education.
I'm pausing as I'm saying it because it's so
many buzzwords altogether. Student Engagement
in Higher Education Journal has just done a special
edition on the student voice, because of course
there's only one, and in which we have just had,
we've sort of done a write -up of this, but focusing
specifically on how we feel. Hopefully our project
has kind of, you know, really kind of for reasons
that we've talked about here rather than just
the survey has really kind of activated that
student voice. So that that publication, we can
also link to this as well. And there will be
other publications. In a due course, no doubt.
There's writing in hand. We've also created the
snapshot for the Light website. So I think if
people wanted to go onto the Light website, they
can see the project overview and then the latest
snapshot where we reflect on the project overall.
But yes, I've been working... on this area of
internationalisation for a good 15 or more years.
And so there's a deeper, longer paper that I'm
going to be writing with Alison and Sally, if
she wants to contribute, where we hope to contribute
to the reframing of the discourses around what
internationalisation is. There's a really interesting
network led by Jenna Mittelmeyer, Sophie Loma
and other people at the University of Manchester,
which has now gone... viral, international, and
we are regular contributors to practitioner -based
talks. So we are able to get beyond just the
standard research little bubble and try and really
get out to people who are engaged as professionals
and as leaders. We have, you know, deans of internationalisation
in universities in Brazil coming along and hearing
what we're doing. So I think, you know, we are
really trying to... Make sure that the the work
we do feeds into the broadest possible narratives
where both practitioner practices, institutional
strategic planning, as well as research readership
can can can gain traction. But I think what we
really, really want to do, and I will have to
talk with Sally and Alison later about this,
is what we can do in our in our daily teaching
lives. Our standard assumption when we plan the
module review and the way we think about teaching
for the coming year. Oh, that's the week in which
if I do nothing else in the rest of the module
in that week, I will make sure I do something
which is going to be an activity, not not a telling,
but a showing. And it's where the students show
me, not what I show them. I would like that to
be a general. mantra that we could spread far
and wide, I think. But anyway, yes, so various
more outreaches to come. And we've got, I think,
a presentation at the Student Success Conference.
We have, yes. So Claire and I will be talking
about this there and sharing these resources.
And we're doing it, I think, as a workshop where
people can come along and actually have a look
at the resources, have a look at the infographics,
think about whether they could use them as they
are or how they would adapt to their cohorts.
And we've also... put in a proposal with sally
to talk at the student education conference so
please do accept that proposal and then sally
will have an opportunity to share her perspective
again we've also um out of a talk which you gave
to the European scholarship conference what we
call SOTL had some people at your workshop that
were interested in hearing more so we're going
to independently set up a catch up network event
if you like so we'll start to explore how far
there's a community of practice involving perhaps
ex -students even new students and practitioners
so that it can continue to be an iterative process
this is not something that just finishes this
is a start of a journey I think but yeah watch
this space indeed I think It's clear that we
all see the project as not finished and almost
like the start of a new chapter. And, you know,
that we're implementing this into our own, not
just our own practice, but trying to shape school,
faculty, university, internationalisation, inclusivity
agendas. For me personally, I don't know about
Claire, but I've particularly enjoyed... this
aspect of student partnership and I know it's
something that the university is just starting
to kind of investigate, explore, promote a little
bit more. So as Claire I think mentioned before
we've both kind of joined that student partnership
incubator space. I've been to a few events like
that as well so I'm particularly interested given
my work in the School of Sociology and Social
Policy. I'm particularly interested in continuing
to partner with students like Sally to understand
their lived experiences, because every every
cohort is different. Every student is different.
And really to help empower students to make the
university experience what they want it to be.
I know that sounds a bit idealistic, but that's
my mission. inspired by the work of bell hooks
and Paulo Freire well if universities can't be
a space for idealism then you know we have lost
our heart and soul so yes I fully echo that that
sense of of um and of optimism you know um I
think there's as sally has alluded to that there's
there's a lot of difficult discourses around
where the higher education space is where it's
We've seen what's happening in other countries.
I really hope Leeds hangs on to its hat as the
winds buffet it. But we have made this commitment
to the hashtag WeAreInternational campaign run
by the UK Charter for International Students
Engagement and Achievement. And I think if we
state we have a commitment to maintaining these
standards, then we must put our feet. We walk
the talk. Great. So, you know, you've obviously
had a very busy project. You've already done
a lot of shouting about the project, which is
something that, you know, it's really nice to
see people being proactive and sharing their
work. What advice would you have for others then
that are considering pedagogical research, SOTL,
or anything that you might have done differently
in your work? I think we both agreed that, and
we were very, very thankful, particularly in
that first year when we had the delay because
of ethics approval. We definitely strongly recommend
a research project beyond one year. I think perhaps
for our aims, certainly, it just wouldn't have
worked in a year, would it? So, you know, not
just for those technical reasons, but also because,
you know, if you want to have any meaningful
impact. And also, I guess, because of the nature
of what we were investigating, we wanted to have
that sort of reiteration, didn't we, to sort
of almost, we haven't mentioned it, but we were
also kind of concerned that at the start of our
project, which is just as we were coming out
of COVID, were there any sort of, you know, pandemic.
influences that we hadn't thought about now five
years later perhaps that's something we can go
back to our data and sort of think about but
um yeah so we were very keen to set out to make
a difference and not just collect data that was
shelved we were advised at the beginning to not
be disappointed if the data just got shelled.
And I think that almost gave us a fire in our
bellies, didn't it, Claire? Like, no, we are
going to make sure that this has some impact.
So regular, we've regularly met, communicated,
updated, made changes to really make sure. Yeah.
And I think that confidence. We took time to
work through the application. I would encourage
people not to snatch at it because I think you
can put together a nice idea but sort of fall
over with methodology that just isn't quite rigorously
enough planned. If you've got time to ensure
that a relatively straightforward methodology
plan that will deliver. something also has a
bit of flexibility so that you can adjust if
need be. I think that gives you that sense of
adaptability that I think all good research should
allow for a bit of the bumps, as Alison said.
But I think take lots of advice. I think be confident
in the ambition of your project, but try and
make sure that at least one real world application
is designed to come out of it. Also, just that
sense of ambition that. scholarship is changing
with pedagogic research is really essential for
for shift for helping universities shift as institutions
and so having a bit of extra time to realize
how your work fits in with other people is really
important leads as a huge institution and we
kept finding people who are doing stuff that
was a little bit similar to us and we just didn't
know and so we've we've actually made that one
of our our core sort of reflection aims is who
do we now know is interested in what we're doing,
what are they doing that we're interested in,
and we're making a point of trying to keep up
those contacts. Because otherwise it can feel
like you're whistling in the wind, even if it's
really, really good work. And so I would really
encourage people doing the pedagogic research,
make sure you're well connected, use all the
light activities as fellow events and so forth.
You never know who you meet. And I think research,
yes, is about you and a focus and a direction,
but it's also being open to encounters. that
can change the way you think. And that's important.
And I just add that doing it collaboratively,
definitely recommend. I just live to formally
as we're being recorded. Thank Claire, because
it's been amazing. And I know our. Our sort of
collaboration is not going to finish now. We're
already kind of like, oh, yes, we could do this
next. Take on higher education. Research can
be a lonely road. And I would say this for students.
I always say it for students and I say it for
colleagues in research active roles. And if you're
taking on a pedagogy or scholarship focused research
project, this may be the first time you've gone
into a sort of an extended piece of work for
a while. just having other people to help you.
And it gets to the point where you can't remember
why you're doing it. You're not sure about what
you're finding. That long, dark night of the
soul that happens in every single project that
comes. And Alison was always there, particularly
for me, who can get a bit caught up in the sort
of philosophical whys and wherefores. Yeah, but
we're going to do this step next. And I'd like
to thank Alison too, because it's been great
fun. And I think we got to places that individually,
certainly I wouldn't have got to. So thank you.
And thanks, Ali. thank you there's too much to
say thank you to sally on air we will we will
do a lot off air but you know it's I think um
having someone who's been so able to spare her
time and so willing to share her insights it's
been a fantastic partnership thank you yeah and
I think it's great to hear like about you know,
making connections and collaborating with each
other. And I guess that's the importance of now
we've got like incubators that hopefully help
people make those connections. So it's linking
people to those. You might just find people who,
you know, can strengthen your voice and are on
the same page as you and have expertise that
maybe, you know, you might need to depend on
later on. And it's so important to make those
connections. I guess the last question then,
Sally, is What advice would you give to staff
thinking about engaging students or students
wanting to get involved in pedagogical research?
So I'll start with the staff. And the two things
I would say first is be open with students and
be open for students. So be open with students
just means tell students what the project is,
what the goals are, what the involvement entails.
Tell them what you'll do with the results, what
they will be used for, so that students can give
as much informed consent as possible and that
they are not blindsided by the research process.
Yes, that is be open with students as much as
you can, but also be open for students. So that
means get away from this research paradigm of
researcher and the researched. It is so important
to give students a chance to safely articulate
and express their experiences and how they navigate
student life and life in general in the UK. That
can really help to change not only the paradigm,
but also to show, oh, this narrative that I'm
having, I see now, I've never seen it before.
I've never thought of these things like that.
I've never seen these things and they helped
me to see it because they, you know, they've
highlighted it. So I think as a researcher, it
is vital to allow this, even though, and this
is also something we need to be honest about,
it can push us into a space of discomfort or
disagreement. Having, you know, being challenged
is not easy. We all know what it feels like when
somebody disagrees with us, how frustrating that
can be. And it's even more frustrating when you
think about it afterwards and you realize, oh,
they had a point. But I think that is what makes
interaction, research isn't interaction, it's
relational. That's what makes it interesting.
So discomfort and disagreements can be interesting.
But it is hard work. It's hard work in pedagogical
practice and in research and on a personal level
as well. But I think these are the three levels
where this discomfort and this disagreement can
be explored. And I think that when they are reflected,
it can be very enriching on all these levels,
I believe. And for students, I would say, take
these opportunities when they come. If there's
something where you think, oh, this might be
interesting to take part in, then do it. Be active
and be vocal about your needs and your journey
that you've been on. There's this saying, nothing
about us without us, which I think comes from
disability studies. But it is an important rule
for anything that impacts your life. something
has an influence on you, you should be able to
feed back and change it and to give that feedback
about how it influences you and what the impact
is. So I would encourage everyone to take part
in meaningful research, such as Alison's and
Claire's, but also find productive channels outside
of research where you can articulate your needs
and the things that influence your opinion about
them. So I do appreciate that that is hard for
some people. The project was called Stepping
Out, Standing Up. That is a huge thing for some
people. A lot of our students are very young.
A lot of our students are from backgrounds where
that is not very much encouraged. So it is a
huge... thing to say to people and I do appreciate
that but I still think it is important you know
actively pushing to have one's needs fulfilled
doesn't come easy to everyone and especially
at university there are power dynamics involved
you know it's easy for me to say now that I'm
not a student anymore to be like oh yeah you
know just tell your lecturer that you don't like
what they are doing or participate in this research
project where, you know, and just really, you
know, give it to them, just tell them everything.
Because Alison also mentioned in one of our events,
for example, one research participant asked her
for a job reference. Yeah. So we do have to keep
these power dynamics in mind. For students, when
you do get involved in these projects, challenge
yourself, push a little bit, but also like only
to the degree that you're comfortable with. I
want nobody to be lying in bed at night thinking,
oh, my God, I can't believe I've said that. That
was too much. But I do think that students, there
used to be this really great student culture
of this counterculture of student movements.
a huge part in Germany, and we still talk about
it, the years of 1968, 1969, how students influenced
everything, politics, you know, how they challenged
narratives. And I just want that to come back
in a way, and again to counter this narrative
of... oh, it's just student politics, you know,
that's a bit silly. Everybody is so political
in university and then they come into the real
world and it will change. No, university is the
real world. You know, it is connected to the
real world and we all are. So that is what I
would recommend to students. I've never regretted
participating in these projects. I might have
thought afterwards, oh, I should have said that
differently. But, you know, being part of these
things and trying to make a difference, I think
that is really, really worth, you know, your
time and the effort, especially because now,
as Claire mentioned earlier, we are in an environment
at the moment where things are quite scary for
a lot of reasons. So that can also be an avenue
to say like, OK, this is how I interact with
these things. This is something I can do to challenge
these things. And that's such an important point,
isn't it? You know, encouraging students to feel
safe, to express themselves in pedagogical research
and hopefully capture some of their ideas. Right.
Well, thank you very much for coming and sharing
your project. Thank you. Thank you for assisting
us at the beginning in the research as well.
No worries. And I'll link any sort of outputs
into the show notes for people to find out more
about your project. Great. Thanks very much.
And come along to the Student Success Conference.
Indeed. And the Student Education Conference,
if we're accepted. If we get accepted, yes. Watch
this space.