WEBVTT 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.179 Welcome to LITE Bites, an occasional podcast 00:00:11.179 --> 00:00:13.279 from Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence 00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:16.280 at the University of Leeds. Episodes will be 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:18.559 hosted by members of the LITE team. And we'll 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:20.379 be showcasing the scholarship of teaching and 00:00:20.379 --> 00:00:29.420 learning from across the university. Hello everyone 00:00:29.420 --> 00:00:32.780 and welcome to another LITE Bites podcast. I'm 00:00:32.780 --> 00:00:35.100 Hayley Bullard from the Leeds Institute for Teaching 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:38.700 Excellence. I'm joined today by Alison and Claire 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:41.200 who have just completed their LITE Fellowship 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:43.640 and Sally who was a student partner on their 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:46.640 project. The project was titled Stepping Up and 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:50.079 Standing Out, supporting international postgraduates 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:53.429 to make the most of their year in Leeds. And 00:00:53.429 --> 00:00:55.509 I'm excited to have you guys here because this 00:00:55.509 --> 00:00:57.429 was one of the first projects that I supported 00:00:57.429 --> 00:01:00.329 fellows with when I first joined LITE a few 00:01:00.329 --> 00:01:03.649 years ago. So it's really nice to hear what you 00:01:03.649 --> 00:01:07.090 found and how it went. So shall we start by just 00:01:07.090 --> 00:01:10.609 introducing yourselves and saying what you do 00:01:10.609 --> 00:01:14.629 at the university? Yeah, hello. So I'm Alison, 00:01:14.890 --> 00:01:17.909 Alison Leslie, and I'm a lecturer in English 00:01:17.909 --> 00:01:20.250 for academic purposes in the Language Centre. 00:01:20.939 --> 00:01:23.540 which is part of the School of Languages, Cultures 00:01:23.540 --> 00:01:26.700 and Societies, but I also work in the School 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:30.299 of Sociology and Social Policy. And I design, 00:01:30.420 --> 00:01:34.400 lead and teach on a variety of pre - and in -sessional 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:37.180 programmes which prepare or support students 00:01:37.180 --> 00:01:39.340 with their academic study in the discipline. 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:42.959 And I also lead the core module on intercultural 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.599 communication and global citizenship for the 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:50.060 Horizon Study Year Abroad. Great. And I'm Claire 00:01:50.060 --> 00:01:52.340 Wright. I'm Professor of Linguistics and Language 00:01:52.340 --> 00:01:55.420 Teaching, also in the School of Languages, Cultures 00:01:55.420 --> 00:01:58.459 and Societies. And I mainly teach our MA students 00:01:58.459 --> 00:02:01.260 doing courses such as linguistics or linguistics 00:02:01.260 --> 00:02:03.859 for language teaching. I started out like Alison 00:02:03.859 --> 00:02:07.239 as an academic English teacher, but I've always 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.639 been fascinated at what might help people's confidence 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:14.039 and motivation for communicating effectively 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:17.669 in a range of languages. So at least now in my 00:02:17.669 --> 00:02:20.710 teaching and my research, I'm working on including 00:02:20.710 --> 00:02:24.050 student voices in how to help them master academic 00:02:24.050 --> 00:02:27.389 writing, ensuring ethical use of generative AI, 00:02:27.669 --> 00:02:30.409 how to build good speaking and listening skills, 00:02:30.550 --> 00:02:33.289 and then trying to see how that relationship 00:02:33.289 --> 00:02:36.710 to academic attainment is associated with more 00:02:36.710 --> 00:02:39.759 confidence in... reaching out to make friends, 00:02:40.099 --> 00:02:43.479 dealing with intercultural differences they may 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:45.620 find if they come from different cultural backgrounds 00:02:45.620 --> 00:02:49.539 and what just helps them feel that they can have 00:02:49.539 --> 00:02:51.740 a good time and succeed during their year here 00:02:51.740 --> 00:02:57.159 at Leeds. I'm Sally Heyer. I was an MA student 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:02.639 in 2023 and 2024 where I met Alison on one of 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:07.889 my, actually one of my very first events. As 00:03:07.889 --> 00:03:10.509 a postgraduate student, and that was two years 00:03:10.509 --> 00:03:13.849 ago. So after I graduated from the University 00:03:13.849 --> 00:03:17.370 of Leeds, I very briefly worked with foundation 00:03:17.370 --> 00:03:21.150 year students for both the University of Leeds 00:03:21.150 --> 00:03:24.909 and Leeds Beckett. And now I work at Nexus at 00:03:24.909 --> 00:03:27.409 the University of Leeds, and I support a program 00:03:27.409 --> 00:03:31.139 called Innovative Entrepreneurs. which is designed 00:03:31.139 --> 00:03:35.379 for early stage business founders from underrepresented 00:03:35.379 --> 00:03:39.280 groups and to give them the guidance and the 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:41.479 help that they need to accelerate their business. 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:46.439 Great. So Alison and Claire, what sort of kicked 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:48.759 you off of starting this project and what sparked 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:52.919 your interest in this project? So I was motivated 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:55.280 to do a light research project when I met Claire. 00:03:55.500 --> 00:03:58.139 I think we were at a... university student education 00:03:58.139 --> 00:04:01.259 event. And we found ourselves sharing similar 00:04:01.259 --> 00:04:04.139 experiences and concerns about internationalisation, 00:04:04.340 --> 00:04:07.300 given that our experience of working with international 00:04:07.300 --> 00:04:10.900 students predominantly. So particularly, we were 00:04:10.900 --> 00:04:13.419 both interested in how we support international 00:04:13.419 --> 00:04:17.079 PGT students and make them feel they have pedagogical 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:19.560 value to the university in the short time they 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:23.540 are with us. And I think we just heard then about 00:04:23.540 --> 00:04:26.199 Light. Light were... probably promoting these 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:29.120 fellowships. And we felt that through that together, 00:04:29.300 --> 00:04:32.560 we should and could try to do something about 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:37.579 it and stop whinging. Yeah, that's right. You 00:04:37.579 --> 00:04:39.920 know, after 25 years of teaching international 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:42.839 students in various forms, it was wonderful to 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:47.779 find Alison and realise how much her sense of 00:04:47.779 --> 00:04:50.920 her values and ideas about supporting international 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.899 students. more effectively, chimed so well with 00:04:54.899 --> 00:04:59.120 my own. You know, we've both been in the business 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:01.660 of supporting international students. And we 00:05:01.660 --> 00:05:03.759 knew that actually Leeds was a pretty good place 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.360 compared to some of the institutions I've worked 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.300 in at times. But while there can be a lot of 00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:12.339 good advice out there, there can be a disconnect 00:05:12.339 --> 00:05:15.480 with students who may either not know about the 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.800 advice or feel in some way. that it's tricky 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:21.279 to navigate their route to taking up their advice 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:24.279 or the advice is framed in such a way that it's 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:29.000 quite opaque, if you like, maybe not really in 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:31.959 fitting with the students' own senses of what 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:35.000 they know how to reflect on, identify what they 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.540 need and then be able to choose the best way 00:05:37.540 --> 00:05:40.819 forward for them. So I'd been involved in light 00:05:40.819 --> 00:05:43.480 a couple of times, but previously I'd done some 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:47.720 I use the light network to work on how we could 00:05:48.709 --> 00:05:50.990 help share best practice around research -based 00:05:50.990 --> 00:05:53.430 learning again that goes back to my interest 00:05:53.430 --> 00:05:56.569 in how to ensure that MA students for example 00:05:56.569 --> 00:05:58.870 when they come to do their their dissertations 00:05:58.870 --> 00:06:01.129 and their projects these big independent pieces 00:06:01.129 --> 00:06:03.649 of of study are on their own over the summer 00:06:03.649 --> 00:06:07.649 how how to supervise them well how to understand 00:06:07.649 --> 00:06:10.350 the needs that international students may have 00:06:10.350 --> 00:06:14.009 and so I think you know I'd already had some 00:06:14.009 --> 00:06:18.839 experience from that about the the The challenges 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.699 of navigating that kind of expectation of self 00:06:21.699 --> 00:06:26.379 -efficacy, of, to be blunt, the sink or swim 00:06:26.379 --> 00:06:29.459 mentality that sometimes students told me they 00:06:29.459 --> 00:06:33.319 faced. And sadly, sometimes the students who 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:36.620 we heard about needing real serious help after 00:06:36.620 --> 00:06:38.759 they were beginning to sink quite badly. I said, 00:06:38.779 --> 00:06:41.540 if we'd known earlier. We could have done more 00:06:41.540 --> 00:06:44.019 to help. Why didn't you reach out and let us 00:06:44.019 --> 00:06:46.819 know? Oh, well. So I think it's for me, it was 00:06:46.819 --> 00:06:50.120 finding someone like Alison who was very practically 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:54.399 minded and really expert and aware of what to 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:58.259 do with students on a on a weekly or ongoing 00:06:58.259 --> 00:07:01.839 basis to give them these tools. And I think that 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:04.300 chimed well with my sort of existential doubt 00:07:04.300 --> 00:07:08.220 as to what it was that could be done. And turn 00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:11.600 the way of thinking from we just provide advice 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:13.720 and then expect people to go and find it into, 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:17.019 no, let's work with students to see what that 00:07:17.019 --> 00:07:19.199 could feel like in a way that was more productive 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:23.779 and more authentic for students. Great. So it's 00:07:23.779 --> 00:07:26.079 lovely to hear that finding somebody to collaborate 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.680 with is something that's helped back those ideas 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:33.420 and bring that on. Sally, what interested you 00:07:33.420 --> 00:07:35.439 or motivated you to get involved in the project 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.079 as a student? Yeah, there was a moment at the 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:42.180 event I just mentioned two years ago when I started 00:07:42.180 --> 00:07:45.720 my MA where I stepped into a lecture theatre 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:50.279 and just looked at every other student that had 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:52.819 begun their master's studies with me in the School 00:07:52.819 --> 00:07:55.779 of Sociology and Social Policy. I was thinking 00:07:55.779 --> 00:08:01.459 to myself, OK, that's different. The degree of 00:08:01.459 --> 00:08:05.040 internationalisation at UK universities was very 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.060 visible. It was something that I've never experienced 00:08:09.060 --> 00:08:13.000 because in Germany, where I did my undergraduate 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:15.759 degree and where I'm from, we do have a certain 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:17.939 degree of internationalization, but it's not 00:08:17.939 --> 00:08:20.920 as pronounced as in the UK for different reasons. 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:28.019 So I did then start talking to the other students 00:08:28.019 --> 00:08:31.980 and I sort of turned into the person that students 00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:36.129 went to for advice. which I don't know how I 00:08:36.129 --> 00:08:38.909 got to be that person because we were all in 00:08:38.909 --> 00:08:42.450 the same situation. But this network of advice 00:08:42.450 --> 00:08:45.909 just developed and there was one person that 00:08:45.909 --> 00:08:49.509 I'm still in contact with and we exchanged a 00:08:49.509 --> 00:08:53.190 lot of knowledge about our courses, what we think 00:08:53.190 --> 00:08:56.250 lecturers want from us, what we think, you know, 00:08:56.250 --> 00:08:59.870 this assignment means and all of these things. 00:08:59.990 --> 00:09:04.210 And then when Alison was inviting students to 00:09:04.210 --> 00:09:08.190 participate in this research. I participated 00:09:08.190 --> 00:09:11.730 because I wanted to share my own experience so 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:14.830 that it may benefit other students in the future 00:09:14.830 --> 00:09:19.090 or also university staff so that they can understand 00:09:19.090 --> 00:09:23.110 international students' experiences and meaningful, 00:09:23.210 --> 00:09:27.809 informed their practices. So could you give listeners 00:09:27.809 --> 00:09:31.029 an overview of the research design and how you 00:09:31.029 --> 00:09:33.639 went about it? Did everything go to plan or were 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:36.080 there some bumps in the road? What was your experience 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:39.039 of that? Well, I think I've always heard, especially 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:42.039 in sociology, that good research design has plenty 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:47.159 of bumps. So I think that's inevitable. We were 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:50.019 keen to use a variety of mixed methods to collect 00:09:50.019 --> 00:09:52.120 our data with the student voice being central. 00:09:52.340 --> 00:09:54.340 I think Claire and I both come from a very much 00:09:54.340 --> 00:09:57.960 a sort of qualitative research background. But 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.120 most importantly, when we were doing our sort 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.830 of literature review, And looking at what else 00:10:02.830 --> 00:10:05.590 was going on, we were very aware that we didn't 00:10:05.590 --> 00:10:08.789 want to duplicate what was already there. So 00:10:08.789 --> 00:10:11.549 we were aware through our reading that there 00:10:11.549 --> 00:10:14.610 was plenty of literature on barriers to inclusion 00:10:14.610 --> 00:10:17.610 and success for international students. And there 00:10:17.610 --> 00:10:20.450 was almost a sort of call for, you know, let's 00:10:20.450 --> 00:10:22.570 do something about the barriers. Let's not keep 00:10:22.570 --> 00:10:24.590 talking about the barriers because that doesn't 00:10:24.590 --> 00:10:26.990 really help. But how do we address the barriers 00:10:26.990 --> 00:10:30.169 is the next step. We were also very aware that 00:10:30.169 --> 00:10:32.610 there were a lot of student, and Sally might 00:10:32.610 --> 00:10:34.690 be able to speak to this, a lot of student voice 00:10:34.690 --> 00:10:38.789 surveys in the university, you know, saying, 00:10:38.909 --> 00:10:42.210 oh, you know, we value your voice, tell us what 00:10:42.210 --> 00:10:46.370 you think. And although that data was useful 00:10:46.370 --> 00:10:49.250 when we could get hold of it, because a lot of 00:10:49.250 --> 00:10:52.970 it is quite difficult to find, it doesn't feel 00:10:52.970 --> 00:10:56.490 that it's always actually then put into kind 00:10:56.490 --> 00:11:01.379 of practice. So we did use surveys at the start 00:11:01.379 --> 00:11:04.299 of the project in the first two years, but they 00:11:04.299 --> 00:11:06.820 were mostly really as a kind of benchmark measure 00:11:06.820 --> 00:11:09.700 just to get a sort of temperature check of, you 00:11:09.700 --> 00:11:12.679 know, obviously we were coming to the research 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.460 with quite a few sort of hypotheses that we wanted 00:11:15.460 --> 00:11:18.100 to test, assumptions based on our own observations 00:11:18.100 --> 00:11:21.960 of what was going on. But we wanted to just sort 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:25.669 of test those. So at the beginning, it was very 00:11:25.669 --> 00:11:28.230 much sort of, you know, using thematic analysis, 00:11:28.429 --> 00:11:31.529 wasn't it, to identify kind of key themes that 00:11:31.529 --> 00:11:35.049 we then wanted to explore. But I think our main 00:11:35.049 --> 00:11:38.870 and most valuable method, which developed over 00:11:38.870 --> 00:11:41.690 the course of the project, and we didn't necessarily 00:11:41.690 --> 00:11:46.759 set out to use, was co -creation. focus groups 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:50.460 with students. So, you know, like all good empirical 00:11:50.460 --> 00:11:53.440 science, you find out exactly what the scale 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:55.139 of the problem is and then you try and come up 00:11:55.139 --> 00:11:58.419 with good solutions. But I think the real gift 00:11:58.419 --> 00:12:01.139 to us was having the time and the space of the 00:12:01.139 --> 00:12:04.029 three year. So, you know, we are very grateful 00:12:04.029 --> 00:12:07.230 to Light for giving us that extended time because 00:12:07.230 --> 00:12:10.669 it allowed us to, A, confirm and validate that, 00:12:10.710 --> 00:12:12.610 yeah, what our students were feeling was very 00:12:12.610 --> 00:12:15.289 much along the lines of existing knowledge. But 00:12:15.289 --> 00:12:18.389 it gave us a space to then work out how to interpret 00:12:18.389 --> 00:12:21.809 it in more nuanced ways and being able to have 00:12:21.809 --> 00:12:24.629 one or two rounds of the student focus groups. 00:12:25.850 --> 00:12:28.649 We had a chance to probe in more depth. So one 00:12:28.649 --> 00:12:30.809 of the things that was really great as well was 00:12:30.809 --> 00:12:34.330 having. originally started rather simplistically, 00:12:34.389 --> 00:12:36.230 perhaps by saying, we'll do a survey and then 00:12:36.230 --> 00:12:39.009 we'll do a focus group. What we realised and 00:12:39.009 --> 00:12:42.269 we had time to do was to say, what do the students 00:12:42.269 --> 00:12:47.149 show us by some activities that they could use 00:12:47.149 --> 00:12:49.710 to interpret their experience? And one of the 00:12:49.710 --> 00:12:52.070 best exercises that I think was a real turning 00:12:52.070 --> 00:12:54.070 point for us, wasn't it, Alison, was where, and 00:12:54.070 --> 00:12:56.330 this was your idea, we got students to write 00:12:56.330 --> 00:12:58.730 post -it notes of at what point in the year. 00:12:59.139 --> 00:13:01.299 They were taking up the different kinds of advice 00:13:01.299 --> 00:13:02.840 that, you know, going back to our original research 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:04.980 question, do the students know what advice is 00:13:04.980 --> 00:13:06.860 available and are they taking it up? And if not, 00:13:06.899 --> 00:13:09.840 why not? That was our core question. And so we 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:11.360 got the students to write in these post -it notes. 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:13.580 What advice are you taking up? Do you know where 00:13:13.580 --> 00:13:16.759 to go? And when in the year do you do this? And 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:18.580 we realised that, oh, good. Yes, induction does 00:13:18.580 --> 00:13:20.419 work. Students are told things and they seem 00:13:20.419 --> 00:13:22.220 to remember occasionally that they can go to 00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:24.419 see their personal tutor or go to the library 00:13:24.419 --> 00:13:30.519 or take up these supportive resources. But we 00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:33.340 were talking to them, what, in about March. And 00:13:33.340 --> 00:13:35.539 we were thinking again, you know, for the future 00:13:35.539 --> 00:13:37.860 about the summer and about this complex work 00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:40.720 of the dissertation. And suddenly this idea of 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:44.740 knowing where to go and knowing when to ask petered 00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:48.059 out. And there was this yawning void of the summer, 00:13:48.100 --> 00:13:50.360 which I knew already was it was a potential problem 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:52.419 point for students. And it was really clear the 00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:55.809 students. really really didn't know how well 00:13:55.809 --> 00:13:58.149 to use their time over the summer when the the 00:13:58.149 --> 00:14:01.269 structured teaching gives out and so i think 00:14:01.269 --> 00:14:04.470 it just that a practical activity conveyed to 00:14:04.470 --> 00:14:07.450 us much more clearly than than a sort of thematic 00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:10.250 analysis of surveys would have done I mean Hayley 00:14:10.250 --> 00:14:12.350 you you helped us with those surveys and we it 00:14:12.350 --> 00:14:15.169 was some amazing data that did come out but I 00:14:15.169 --> 00:14:18.370 think for me that that visual practical activity 00:14:18.370 --> 00:14:23.000 of recognizing the fading away of confidence 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:26.200 and of knowledge about the process. And we've 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:28.360 captured that as a single infographic that I'm 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.460 now taking around to other staff to go, look, 00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:33.019 see, the students don't know. Look at how lonely, 00:14:33.100 --> 00:14:35.139 look how isolated they feel in the summer. And 00:14:35.139 --> 00:14:38.899 it's very easy for staff to go, ah, that's where 00:14:38.899 --> 00:14:40.919 we need to focus, you know. And I think it's 00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:46.379 that sense of moving from relying on... surveying 00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:49.500 interview as typical techniques to get out what 00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:52.200 students think give them an activity and I think 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:53.899 that then led us and gave us more confidence 00:14:53.899 --> 00:14:57.100 that by going to the co -creation workshops we 00:14:57.100 --> 00:14:59.080 were pretty confident then that students knew 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.580 exactly what it was they wanted to tell us and 00:15:01.580 --> 00:15:03.559 that making something very simple very visual 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:06.000 would be much more effective than here's another 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.720 set of paragraphs with some student words so 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:11.379 I mean I think I really want to focus on on the 00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:14.549 transformational and positive sense of dealing 00:15:14.549 --> 00:15:18.870 with messy project work, our plans kept changing. 00:15:18.970 --> 00:15:20.870 It took a long time to get ethical approval to 00:15:20.870 --> 00:15:24.049 get started. But that was OK. You know, I think 00:15:24.049 --> 00:15:26.129 we rolled with that. I think, like, you know, 00:15:26.149 --> 00:15:28.929 central support was very helpful to keep us going. 00:15:29.870 --> 00:15:32.490 For me, it was really transformational to see 00:15:32.490 --> 00:15:34.250 that we could enable students to play this more 00:15:34.250 --> 00:15:36.870 central role in the research. And I think... 00:15:37.100 --> 00:15:39.159 Because every time we talk about it with Sally 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.740 and with others, the student's voice is first. 00:15:42.139 --> 00:15:46.259 I think that helps create real authenticity and 00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:48.899 real impact into our messaging and make sure 00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:53.940 that our outcomes are taken seriously. To comment 00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:56.899 on what it's like to be a student and to be invited 00:15:56.899 --> 00:16:02.440 to research, I think it cannot be underestimated 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:05.720 how many survey requests we get as students. 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:10.860 especially at the beginning. And I did a degree 00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:14.600 in social research, so I'm very interested in, 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:17.139 you know, questionnaires, looking what questions 00:16:17.139 --> 00:16:22.539 people ask. But I found it, at one point, I was 00:16:22.539 --> 00:16:25.179 not even looking at them anymore. I was thinking, 00:16:25.299 --> 00:16:28.320 do I really, you know, is this really worth my 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.799 time? Just seeing another survey invitation stressed 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:36.309 me out. I can't explain why. But it was just 00:16:36.309 --> 00:16:40.610 too much. And I think it is obviously, and that 00:16:40.610 --> 00:16:42.610 is important because we do need to think about 00:16:42.610 --> 00:16:45.570 our resources and our own time as researchers. 00:16:45.830 --> 00:16:48.490 In Freshers' Week, there are all these companies 00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:51.929 that have their little stalls around the Student 00:16:51.929 --> 00:16:54.570 Union building. They all want you to fill out 00:16:54.570 --> 00:16:57.389 a survey as well so that you can win, I don't 00:16:57.389 --> 00:17:00.559 know. A year worth of pizza at Domino's. I'm 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:04.079 making this one up. Other pizza brands are available. 00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:12.019 Yes. Oh, sorry. Yes. Edit that out. But so these 00:17:12.019 --> 00:17:15.980 companies that are around the student union building, 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.819 they, you know, they often come to you like, 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:20.880 oh, would you just take like two minutes to fill 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:22.920 out the survey? So it is a lot. And you do get 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:27.269 tired of it, even as a social research. person 00:17:27.269 --> 00:17:30.890 gets tired of it. It was actually then quite 00:17:30.890 --> 00:17:35.809 good to be part of research that was more qualitative, 00:17:35.950 --> 00:17:38.329 that was creative as well. It wasn't just an 00:17:38.329 --> 00:17:42.269 interview and it wasn't just a focus group because 00:17:42.269 --> 00:17:45.509 you do get that also, not as often, but it is 00:17:45.509 --> 00:17:49.950 usually the same interview situation. So that 00:17:49.950 --> 00:17:52.789 visual element that Claire and Alison mentioned, 00:17:52.829 --> 00:17:56.680 that was very... Very good, because it also makes 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.140 you to it invites you to think about your time 00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:04.440 at university differently to visualize it. So 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:08.880 these these methods are I appreciate they are 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:13.180 more time intense. The data is not as straightforward, 00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:16.420 one might say, and it is more effort. But I think 00:18:16.420 --> 00:18:19.740 they are something that students as research 00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:23.609 partners also appreciate. So it's sort of learning 00:18:23.609 --> 00:18:27.250 how to do research as action participation. Yeah, 00:18:27.309 --> 00:18:28.849 I think, you know, this is a really important 00:18:28.849 --> 00:18:34.049 thing that as a ethical value around how to do 00:18:34.049 --> 00:18:35.569 research is something I would feel very strongly 00:18:35.569 --> 00:18:38.009 about after our project, which I hadn't appreciated 00:18:38.009 --> 00:18:41.420 before. So we tell our students when we're teaching 00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:43.559 them about doing research, you know, the ethics 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:46.519 of getting informed consent. This is this participant's 00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:48.440 time. You know, they've got no obligation to 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.400 help you. You're not there just to extract information 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:53.400 from them, because, of course, you know, in today's 00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:55.799 society, all data is information. Information 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:58.640 is monetizable or, you know, important in other 00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:02.740 ways. And I think this idea that ethical and 00:19:02.740 --> 00:19:06.740 valued research activity is highly participatory 00:19:06.740 --> 00:19:11.859 with. an object a task outcome that is independent 00:19:11.859 --> 00:19:14.579 of the research project of value to the participant 00:19:14.579 --> 00:19:17.240 so you know we were framing these co -creation 00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:19.819 workshops come and learn the the the technical 00:19:19.819 --> 00:19:23.640 skill to do a prezi do an infographic learn about 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:25.200 this skill learn about that skill and i have 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.440 to say you know the helix facilities were were 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:29.960 great and they and the digital education staff 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.720 that helped us um really made that true you know 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.140 we weren't just dangling a carrot to say look 00:19:35.140 --> 00:19:37.759 there'll be something in it for you Actually, 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:40.500 well, I hope, you know, it did feel like a positive 00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:45.420 activity experience. And also one that hopefully 00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:49.500 was more inclusive as well. Yeah. Wonderful. 00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:52.839 So I guess what did you find out and what did 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:54.740 you learn from doing all these wonderful activities? 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:59.259 Well, as Claire has already mentioned, many of 00:19:59.259 --> 00:20:02.539 the findings did confirm what we already knew. 00:20:04.250 --> 00:20:06.529 basically from principles of inclusive practice, 00:20:06.690 --> 00:20:09.170 which is very much sort of at the forefront of 00:20:09.170 --> 00:20:11.450 what we're doing, isn't it? It informs our practice. 00:20:11.829 --> 00:20:15.670 So, you know, we're not, we were aware of not 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:18.309 falling into this trap of sort of essentialising 00:20:18.309 --> 00:20:21.930 international students ourselves. So a lot of 00:20:21.930 --> 00:20:26.170 what we do is about sort of just making all students 00:20:26.170 --> 00:20:31.049 feel that they can thrive, such as one of the 00:20:31.049 --> 00:20:33.390 things that came out of the data, I think, was 00:20:35.390 --> 00:20:37.710 Repeatedly, students were sort of saying how 00:20:37.710 --> 00:20:41.869 much they valued staff who take the time to get 00:20:41.869 --> 00:20:45.670 to know them as individuals and sort of show 00:20:45.670 --> 00:20:50.470 rather than tell them how to do things. And then 00:20:50.470 --> 00:20:55.190 for me personally, particularly sort of towards 00:20:55.190 --> 00:20:57.230 the end of the project with our third iteration, 00:20:57.329 --> 00:21:01.700 I guess because we were sort of perhaps. shaping 00:21:01.700 --> 00:21:03.859 our activities a little bit more to make sure 00:21:03.859 --> 00:21:05.839 that that student voice was really really coming 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:09.579 out I was particularly struck by the counter 00:21:09.579 --> 00:21:12.119 narrative that our student partners were able 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:16.539 to articulate to that deficit discourse which 00:21:16.539 --> 00:21:19.019 as I said we sometimes found ourselves using 00:21:19.019 --> 00:21:22.480 unintentionally so I think I remember that in 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.440 some of our promotional information about the 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.819 project I think we'd sort of said about you know 00:21:27.819 --> 00:21:31.160 the barriers that you might face when you struggling 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:34.339 on your masters and some of our students corrected 00:21:34.339 --> 00:21:36.700 us didn't they and said can we please use more 00:21:36.700 --> 00:21:39.640 inclusive language more sort of positive language 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:43.559 such as talking about how we navigate our masters 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:47.200 and then the resources that came out well we're 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:48.619 going to talk about the resources a little bit 00:21:48.619 --> 00:21:51.299 later but the resources that came out of that 00:21:51.299 --> 00:21:54.680 third year were very much then almost flipping 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:59.980 that deficit narrative to it being us as staff. 00:22:00.589 --> 00:22:03.569 Who are the ones that have that deficit? That 00:22:03.569 --> 00:22:05.750 for me, I think, was the sort of really sort 00:22:05.750 --> 00:22:09.210 of the strongest takeaway message that I've got 00:22:09.210 --> 00:22:12.170 from doing this project. Yeah. So we've learnt 00:22:12.170 --> 00:22:15.009 stuff as well about, you know, even though we 00:22:15.009 --> 00:22:17.250 see ourselves as being, I hate the word expert 00:22:17.250 --> 00:22:21.930 anyway, but I'll use it. Experienced. Experienced, 00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:24.750 yeah, in supporting international students. You 00:22:24.750 --> 00:22:28.670 know, I think we were open to sort of having 00:22:28.670 --> 00:22:31.940 to rethink. what what uh you know the way that 00:22:31.940 --> 00:22:35.259 we talk about as well and we've got colleagues 00:22:35.259 --> 00:22:37.180 as well who are very good at helping us with 00:22:37.180 --> 00:22:39.720 that indeed you know I think a lot of research 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:43.200 starts with what's the problem then what's the 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:46.930 solution to the problem and when you're dealing 00:22:46.930 --> 00:22:48.990 with experiences of international students, the 00:22:48.990 --> 00:22:51.970 danger is they are the problem or their struggles 00:22:51.970 --> 00:22:53.849 are the problem. And of course, that immediately, 00:22:54.190 --> 00:22:56.049 even if you're trying to be lovely and helpful, 00:22:56.210 --> 00:23:00.529 that starts off with this inauthentic, non -inclusive 00:23:00.529 --> 00:23:06.670 premise. I think we've had a good set of outcomes 00:23:06.670 --> 00:23:10.319 in the sense of people who perhaps haven't. really 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.559 ask themselves very often in the past how can 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:14.680 my students thrive in my classroom as opposed 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:17.740 to why is someone failing you know we are starting 00:23:17.740 --> 00:23:19.759 to help frame discourses where that is becoming 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:23.859 a better way of framing experiences um how can 00:23:23.859 --> 00:23:27.380 i ensure that that resources are fit you know 00:23:27.380 --> 00:23:30.039 fit student needs as opposed to i think the solution 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:32.539 is x and I'm going to tell people where to find 00:23:32.539 --> 00:23:35.299 that solution rather than you know working together 00:23:35.299 --> 00:23:39.210 so i think um If anybody doesn't yet know why 00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:42.210 students find it quite complex to navigate their 00:23:42.210 --> 00:23:45.009 masters, please come and talk to us because we 00:23:45.009 --> 00:23:48.170 do now have lots of experience of where we can 00:23:48.170 --> 00:23:51.089 act as a bridge to students who, you know, sadly 00:23:51.089 --> 00:23:53.569 have to go very quickly after one year. But, 00:23:53.609 --> 00:23:56.390 you know, their voices, their experiences are 00:23:56.390 --> 00:23:59.089 sustained. And so, you know, we can act as a 00:23:59.089 --> 00:24:01.930 bridge to try and help people. reframe their 00:24:01.930 --> 00:24:04.690 own attitudes. So I think the main findings for 00:24:04.690 --> 00:24:07.170 us, yes, we have data, we have survey outcomes, 00:24:07.410 --> 00:24:10.750 we have lovely thematic analyses, but primarily 00:24:10.750 --> 00:24:13.289 we have these infographics, which we hope represent 00:24:13.289 --> 00:24:16.369 a different way of framing your life as a teacher, 00:24:16.430 --> 00:24:19.230 as an educator, as a provider of services in 00:24:19.230 --> 00:24:22.009 this rapidly changing world of higher education 00:24:22.009 --> 00:24:27.000 in ways that are appropriate, authentic. and 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.359 respectful of the students as partners in the 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:35.259 experience. Yes, for me, what I thought was very 00:24:35.259 --> 00:24:38.680 interesting was, firstly, I learned a lot from 00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:42.539 other students there. So the people that I was 00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:45.880 interacting with were mostly people from China. 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:49.339 And I think this is something that people also 00:24:49.339 --> 00:24:51.380 need to keep in mind is that international students 00:24:51.380 --> 00:24:56.150 are not one big blob. We also have... perceptions 00:24:56.150 --> 00:24:59.349 of one another. I'm a person from Western Europe, 00:24:59.529 --> 00:25:01.710 so I have certain perceptions about China, about 00:25:01.710 --> 00:25:03.930 people from China, whether I like it or not. 00:25:04.109 --> 00:25:06.890 I'm framed by certain narratives as well, as 00:25:06.890 --> 00:25:08.950 they are as well. They have certain perceptions 00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:12.329 of Germany, of the UK. So it was very interesting 00:25:12.329 --> 00:25:15.910 to sort of, yeah, compare our perceptions of 00:25:15.910 --> 00:25:20.109 the UK and then also to hear from people what 00:25:20.109 --> 00:25:24.759 they think Germany is like. So I found that exchange 00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:30.319 very, very fruitful. And we also have a lot of 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.980 things in common. But I think that is the challenge 00:25:33.980 --> 00:25:37.960 of this research, is to talk about a group that 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:40.279 is a group for a reason, because they share certain 00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:43.579 characteristics, but also distinguish within 00:25:43.579 --> 00:25:46.640 the group and not have this blueprint of, okay, 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.000 this is an international student, you do this, 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:51.619 and then it will be fine, because that is obviously... 00:25:52.569 --> 00:25:55.710 not the case. So I think the differences are 00:25:55.710 --> 00:25:57.970 worth highlighting to make sure research and 00:25:57.970 --> 00:26:00.430 practice can deliver positive outcomes for as 00:26:00.430 --> 00:26:03.569 many people, for as many international students 00:26:03.569 --> 00:26:06.630 as possible. I found that very, very fascinating. 00:26:06.849 --> 00:26:10.849 And then secondly, I was just very grateful, 00:26:10.910 --> 00:26:13.750 again, I did an MA in social research, so I was 00:26:13.750 --> 00:26:15.990 very grateful that Alison and Claire were so 00:26:15.990 --> 00:26:18.930 transparent about their research, that they... 00:26:19.470 --> 00:26:23.230 showed me a method that I've never heard of I 00:26:23.230 --> 00:26:25.829 found the method very fascinating and it was 00:26:25.829 --> 00:26:29.390 just you know a look behind the research curtain 00:26:29.390 --> 00:26:33.089 so to speak so that was really really interesting 00:26:33.089 --> 00:26:35.509 and it was just interesting to see what it looked 00:26:35.509 --> 00:26:38.049 like in practice and it was right before I did 00:26:38.049 --> 00:26:41.049 my dissertation as well so that has very much 00:26:41.049 --> 00:26:44.630 influenced my own dissertation as well brilliant 00:26:44.630 --> 00:26:48.460 so um what sort of changes would you like to 00:26:48.460 --> 00:26:51.960 see as a result and has there already been anything 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:55.319 affected from your work yes well I'm very glad 00:26:55.319 --> 00:26:57.460 to to say that we've already managed to do some 00:26:57.460 --> 00:26:59.839 reaching out I think as I've uh we've alluded 00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:02.240 to at various times through this this podcast 00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:05.079 what we were essentially starting off trying 00:27:05.079 --> 00:27:07.849 to do was to answer the question of what would 00:27:07.849 --> 00:27:11.410 the best way be for international students to 00:27:11.410 --> 00:27:14.609 access particularly academic resources to help 00:27:14.609 --> 00:27:17.069 their studies? But very rapidly, we could see 00:27:17.069 --> 00:27:20.289 the connection between managing personal time 00:27:20.289 --> 00:27:24.410 and managing life on campus and in the city was 00:27:24.410 --> 00:27:27.190 fundamentally connected to academic engagement 00:27:27.190 --> 00:27:30.089 and that sense of confidence of navigating your 00:27:30.089 --> 00:27:32.549 master's. So Sally and her team put together 00:27:32.549 --> 00:27:34.769 this fantastic infographic called Mastering Your 00:27:34.769 --> 00:27:37.960 Master's. And I think that... alongside our summary 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.819 sheet of making it easier for students to find 00:27:40.819 --> 00:27:42.960 their way to different kinds of academic resources. 00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:45.819 They were the starting point for what we've been 00:27:45.819 --> 00:27:48.380 really pleased to put together in the end of 00:27:48.380 --> 00:27:51.559 the range of student co -created resources. These 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:54.799 are all available open access. I think I'm right 00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:57.720 in saying what, six infographics now and a short 00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:01.549 Prezi presentation. So these are very easy to 00:28:01.549 --> 00:28:04.150 circulate and they're very effective in distilling 00:28:04.150 --> 00:28:06.509 key messages. There's one message per infographic, 00:28:06.650 --> 00:28:09.009 but we've got these infographics particularly 00:28:09.009 --> 00:28:12.990 around what it's like to picture the year, what 00:28:12.990 --> 00:28:14.809 it's like to settle in the first in those first 00:28:14.809 --> 00:28:17.470 two, three really intense weeks, how to access 00:28:17.470 --> 00:28:23.259 the academic literacy resources, how to. build 00:28:23.259 --> 00:28:26.359 confidence in talking to staff in ways which 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:28.859 for many people, it may be different to what 00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:31.019 they're used to. You know, at least we have a 00:28:31.019 --> 00:28:33.319 very informal kind of way of talking and that 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.119 may not be familiar for many. And then another 00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:38.519 one, which is, you know, as Sally's alluded to, 00:28:38.619 --> 00:28:41.839 what staff can bear in mind as they are taking 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:45.789 a more inclusive approach to. getting to know 00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:48.009 their student groups. So these are really easy 00:28:48.009 --> 00:28:49.930 to circulate. They're very effective at distilling 00:28:49.930 --> 00:28:53.089 these key messages. As I said earlier, universities 00:28:53.089 --> 00:28:55.130 are going through such a lot of rapid change. 00:28:55.529 --> 00:28:59.250 Some, we hope, will end up ensuring better practice 00:28:59.250 --> 00:29:01.490 comes to the fore. And what we wanted was some 00:29:01.490 --> 00:29:05.549 very simple tools that we could ensure people 00:29:05.549 --> 00:29:08.009 working with international cohorts could support 00:29:08.009 --> 00:29:10.509 them successfully, even if it was just to confirm 00:29:10.509 --> 00:29:12.390 that what they were doing was already good practice. 00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:15.640 So we've made them all open access. They are 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:18.200 available for anyone to download and adapt as 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:21.200 they wish. They've already gone into school induction 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:23.539 packs. I've used them in my school. They've gone 00:29:23.539 --> 00:29:25.559 into other schools in my faculty. Alison, you've 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:28.440 been using them in your faculty. They've gone 00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:30.599 around the university union and the student experience 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.539 team. So both student groups and professional 00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:37.799 staff are also aware of how the messaging can 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:39.940 connect to other messages that they may want 00:29:39.940 --> 00:29:43.779 to. to take forward, very much focusing on the 00:29:43.779 --> 00:29:46.059 idea that any activities that are student -centred 00:29:46.059 --> 00:29:49.240 can benefit from referring to them. We've shared 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:51.579 them in workshops with other institutions. You 00:29:51.579 --> 00:29:53.559 know, Leeds has already done quite a lot, but 00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:55.240 what we found was that it was happening in sort 00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:57.640 of different disconnected places. So one of the 00:29:57.640 --> 00:29:59.299 things we've been trying to do is make sure it's 00:29:59.299 --> 00:30:01.119 really easy to connect that the best practice 00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:03.920 is going on. Other institutions where they may 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:08.599 be sort of getting into that stage. that they 00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.220 can use these to guide what they plan. So in 00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:13.339 terms of institutional resource planning and 00:30:13.339 --> 00:30:16.400 strategic planning, we've had workshops done 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:18.420 with a couple of places that already say how 00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:23.019 valuable they've been. We are running personal 00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:25.779 tutor training. So it leads, we have academic 00:30:25.779 --> 00:30:28.420 personal tutors, one member of staff for every 00:30:28.420 --> 00:30:31.980 student. And we are running two sessions a year. 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:33.599 We've done it now for a year. We're going to 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.430 do it again. So that we can say to personal tutors, 00:30:37.450 --> 00:30:40.589 this is what students tell us matters. So that 00:30:40.589 --> 00:30:42.269 as you're thinking about your tutor meetings, 00:30:42.450 --> 00:30:45.109 don't necessarily come with a preconceived list 00:30:45.109 --> 00:30:48.150 that you must adapt, you must change, you must 00:30:48.150 --> 00:30:50.490 become like, you know, a typical lead student, 00:30:50.630 --> 00:30:53.190 because that's not really how it should be. This 00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:55.950 is how can students use the skills they have? 00:30:56.130 --> 00:30:58.789 How can they make more of them? How can they 00:30:58.789 --> 00:31:03.359 not feel, you know, perhaps as adrift as... The 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.579 deficit model tends to treat them, but see them 00:31:06.579 --> 00:31:09.779 as skilled people bringing life experiences and 00:31:09.779 --> 00:31:13.220 able to build on them more. So, yeah, we're very 00:31:13.220 --> 00:31:15.299 pleased that we've already had plenty of ways 00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:19.140 to embed them in. We're I think I'll say a bit 00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:21.059 later about other events that we're speaking 00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:24.380 at. But Sally, you were part of the new light 00:31:24.380 --> 00:31:28.259 incubator launch with is taking student partners 00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:32.339 as the key message. That may have already been 00:31:32.339 --> 00:31:34.180 planned regardless of our project, but we're 00:31:34.180 --> 00:31:35.900 really pleased that our project synchronises 00:31:35.900 --> 00:31:39.200 so well and that, you know, you were a very key 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:44.000 part of the launch of that incubator focus. And 00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:47.400 I think your experiences gave people the hope 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.579 and the confidence that, yeah, OK, this can really 00:31:49.579 --> 00:31:52.299 work. Yeah, thank you. That was my impression 00:31:52.299 --> 00:31:56.319 as well, is that people were very keen on having 00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:00.039 a pedagogical practice that is working for students. 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.539 and is helping them to make the most of themselves 00:32:04.539 --> 00:32:10.440 in a way. And what I would like to see as a result 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:12.940 of, you know, Alison's and Claire's work and 00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:17.119 more projects like this is I would like more 00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:20.119 of that, more that the experiences and the input 00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:22.460 of international students influence practice 00:32:22.460 --> 00:32:27.140 and policy to a greater extent. Because there's 00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:29.660 still a lot of talk about international students 00:32:29.660 --> 00:32:32.220 without meaningful contribution from international 00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:37.160 students. This is partly because of a dominant 00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:41.400 and harmful narrative that is going around. But 00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:46.039 it just needs to be said very clearly that international 00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:49.119 students are a part of the student body. And 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:51.759 if you say we want a university that is influenced 00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:54.319 by students, you do need to influence international 00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:58.059 students. trivial as that sounds, but they are 00:32:58.059 --> 00:33:00.839 your students as well and you need to work with 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:04.099 them and not against them. And I think it is 00:33:04.099 --> 00:33:06.420 a challenge too because everybody has a narrative 00:33:06.420 --> 00:33:09.259 about students, whether it is home students or 00:33:09.259 --> 00:33:12.319 international students. So I do appreciate that 00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:16.380 it's a lot of work, but I hope that when we work 00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:18.880 together with international students, it can 00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:21.880 change and it can help to inform the practice. 00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:28.539 I really hope in a wider picture that, you know, 00:33:28.579 --> 00:33:31.779 this perception of international students as 00:33:31.779 --> 00:33:35.859 cash cows for the higher education can be, yeah, 00:33:35.980 --> 00:33:40.000 can be undone to a certain extent. It is sadly 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:43.319 still a very dominant narrative. It is peddled 00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:46.059 in public discourse. It has been mentioned just 00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:49.740 yesterday at the Labour Party conference. with 00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:52.779 the introduction of the student levy, which is 00:33:52.779 --> 00:33:58.480 supposed to finance home students, which is robbing, 00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:00.720 I don't know how the English idiom goes, the 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.960 international student experience. But you can't 00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:06.960 just take money from one student to pay the other. 00:34:07.059 --> 00:34:10.320 That is not a sustainable model of finance. But 00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:12.420 because of this dominant narrative of international 00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:14.719 students financing the whole sector, it seems 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:19.710 to be okay. And this perception of oh, they just 00:34:19.710 --> 00:34:22.969 want my money. I think if that gains ground with 00:34:22.969 --> 00:34:25.349 international students as well, that can be very, 00:34:25.389 --> 00:34:28.789 very harmful. It can influence teaching experience, 00:34:29.030 --> 00:34:30.869 it can influence learning experience, and it 00:34:30.869 --> 00:34:33.849 can create a very harmful classroom environment. 00:34:34.250 --> 00:34:38.690 So I hope that, you know, this research and people 00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:42.909 working on these things can help to combat that. 00:34:43.070 --> 00:34:47.849 And I do have to say that, you know, this... 00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:51.480 It's not what I've experienced. I've never worked 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:55.260 with anybody as a student or now that I'm a member 00:34:55.260 --> 00:34:57.019 of staff at the University of Leeds, I've never 00:34:57.019 --> 00:35:00.119 met a single person who I thought had that perception. 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:04.360 So it is, I don't know where it's coming from, 00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:07.360 this narrative about international students, 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.739 because international students are also not responsible 00:35:10.739 --> 00:35:13.380 for the choices that have created this environment. 00:35:13.579 --> 00:35:16.679 I think we are all very aware that. This is an 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:20.219 environment we all try to navigate as staff and 00:35:20.219 --> 00:35:24.460 as international students. So I think what we 00:35:24.460 --> 00:35:28.559 should maybe more talk about is what a compliment 00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:31.739 it is for UK universities that people come here, 00:35:31.820 --> 00:35:35.000 you know, from all around the world for the first 00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:38.400 time leaving, you know, a very comfortable environment 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:42.119 maybe behind, putting themselves. you know, in 00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:44.760 the situation challenging themselves like that. 00:35:44.820 --> 00:35:46.960 It is a great compliment for UK universities 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:49.920 and it is due to the work that colleagues have 00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:54.500 done. So I think we shouldn't take this for granted 00:35:54.500 --> 00:35:57.199 and I hope that research like this can help higher 00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:59.460 education colleagues to continue to build on 00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:02.500 this and that it empowers them to counter these 00:36:02.500 --> 00:36:04.760 harmful dominant narratives I mentioned earlier 00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:08.179 and that it can help them build, yeah, the pedagogical 00:36:08.179 --> 00:36:12.099 practice. And that's exactly why we keep inviting 00:36:12.099 --> 00:36:15.920 Sally to all of these spaces. Because one of 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:19.739 the changes that, you know, we are, I think we'd 00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:25.519 really like to see is the university modelling 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:29.739 how internationalisation should be or international 00:36:29.739 --> 00:36:36.190 education. It's very easy. As Sally has alluded 00:36:36.190 --> 00:36:38.389 to, it's very easy to get lots of international 00:36:38.389 --> 00:36:43.070 bums on seats, to put it crudely. But that's 00:36:43.070 --> 00:36:47.050 not being an international university. We've 00:36:47.050 --> 00:36:52.289 all got to work hard at making it feel, you know, 00:36:52.309 --> 00:36:56.690 a community where we can all kind of benefit 00:36:56.690 --> 00:36:59.369 from each other's kind of perspectives and what 00:36:59.369 --> 00:37:03.289 we bring to that. Yeah. I suspect that some of 00:37:03.289 --> 00:37:04.909 our colleagues, you know, for example, thinking 00:37:04.909 --> 00:37:07.590 of academic stuff will be horrified at the implication 00:37:07.590 --> 00:37:10.969 that, you know, they are promoting an implicit 00:37:10.969 --> 00:37:14.070 bias when they sit around going, oh, those students 00:37:14.070 --> 00:37:16.710 are such hard work and they won't engage. And 00:37:16.710 --> 00:37:18.909 it doesn't matter what good advice I tell them, 00:37:18.929 --> 00:37:23.110 they never listen. And I think just unpacking 00:37:23.110 --> 00:37:27.010 all of that and reframing that into your classroom 00:37:27.010 --> 00:37:30.230 should be a joy. for those students across all 00:37:30.230 --> 00:37:32.929 sorts of backgrounds and you know to to to thrive 00:37:32.929 --> 00:37:35.690 and to flourish in and wouldn't that be the best 00:37:35.690 --> 00:37:38.510 outcome for your module for your program so students 00:37:38.510 --> 00:37:40.590 going away from it saying i can't wait for other 00:37:40.590 --> 00:37:42.769 people to come and and experience what we've 00:37:42.769 --> 00:37:47.110 experienced and I think you know we we are I'm 00:37:47.110 --> 00:37:51.199 I'm all for finding the positive in change I 00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:53.699 know not everybody necessarily embraces change 00:37:53.699 --> 00:37:56.059 that much. For me, I don't think it is actually 00:37:56.059 --> 00:37:58.579 change to think about good teaching practice 00:37:58.579 --> 00:38:03.900 as inclusive. But I know that it does feel as 00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:06.420 though there's a lot of change happening. And 00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:09.800 I think that's why we've gone from trying to 00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:13.260 capture some data around how to make students 00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:15.920 engage with academic literacy and associated. 00:38:16.699 --> 00:38:19.579 academic activities um more productive we've 00:38:19.579 --> 00:38:22.260 we've flipped almost entirely into this is about 00:38:22.260 --> 00:38:27.440 promoting values of warm welcome empathy equal 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:31.260 inclusivity and therefore going back to a vision 00:38:31.260 --> 00:38:34.199 of education that you know perhaps we've slightly 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.280 lost sight of it's too easy thinking about home 00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:39.619 students as well to see the universe is as promoting 00:38:39.619 --> 00:38:43.619 a package approach where you know all our all 00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:45.659 we have to do is just deliver the package in 00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:49.019 a suitably commercially appealing way and the 00:38:49.019 --> 00:38:51.099 bums on seats will come and they will go and 00:38:51.099 --> 00:38:53.079 and it has engaged our hearts and minds at all 00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:57.300 and I you know I would be very sad if Leeds was 00:38:57.300 --> 00:39:00.539 associated with that kind of bundle approach 00:39:00.539 --> 00:39:02.539 to education I think there's lots of good practice 00:39:02.539 --> 00:39:04.300 of education here and you know light is going 00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:06.639 to be one of the the beacons of promoting so 00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:09.900 much of good practice but even I think even with 00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:13.460 light getting what is known through research 00:39:13.460 --> 00:39:16.179 at light, out into changing practices. I think 00:39:16.179 --> 00:39:19.900 that is going to be an opportunity that has been 00:39:19.900 --> 00:39:23.760 perhaps a bit slow for the institution to respond 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:26.400 to in the past. And there's loads and loads of 00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:30.059 good stuff that light has been able to create 00:39:30.059 --> 00:39:33.800 in terms of a channel of knowledge. And I really 00:39:33.800 --> 00:39:36.119 hope that the future way forward is for that 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:39.119 to be disseminated and engaged with and embedded 00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:43.360 at the heart of all that we do. Yeah, and I hope 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.659 so. And I like the idea of capturing hearts and 00:39:45.659 --> 00:39:47.739 minds, you know, and that's one of the things 00:39:47.739 --> 00:39:50.179 that comes down to practice, isn't it, in pedagogy. 00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:53.820 You've already mentioned that you've done some 00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:56.239 outputs, some posters and things like that. And 00:39:56.239 --> 00:39:58.860 I hope we can attach them to the show notes as 00:39:58.860 --> 00:40:02.119 well for people to have a look at. Is there any 00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:03.960 other outputs you'd like people to know about? 00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:07.639 Well, we've got a recent publication, haven't 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:12.940 we? So the student... Engagement in Higher Education. 00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:15.239 I'm pausing as I'm saying it because it's so 00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.820 many buzzwords altogether. Student Engagement 00:40:17.820 --> 00:40:23.320 in Higher Education Journal has just done a special 00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.719 edition on the student voice, because of course 00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:31.639 there's only one, and in which we have just had, 00:40:31.780 --> 00:40:37.019 we've sort of done a write -up of this, but focusing 00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:41.869 specifically on how we feel. Hopefully our project 00:40:41.869 --> 00:40:47.909 has kind of, you know, really kind of for reasons 00:40:47.909 --> 00:40:50.050 that we've talked about here rather than just 00:40:50.050 --> 00:40:53.489 the survey has really kind of activated that 00:40:53.489 --> 00:40:56.929 student voice. So that that publication, we can 00:40:56.929 --> 00:41:01.369 also link to this as well. And there will be 00:41:01.369 --> 00:41:05.500 other publications. In a due course, no doubt. 00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:09.500 There's writing in hand. We've also created the 00:41:09.500 --> 00:41:13.579 snapshot for the Light website. So I think if 00:41:13.579 --> 00:41:15.960 people wanted to go onto the Light website, they 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:18.219 can see the project overview and then the latest 00:41:18.219 --> 00:41:23.039 snapshot where we reflect on the project overall. 00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:27.869 But yes, I've been working... on this area of 00:41:27.869 --> 00:41:31.369 internationalisation for a good 15 or more years. 00:41:31.530 --> 00:41:34.849 And so there's a deeper, longer paper that I'm 00:41:34.849 --> 00:41:37.630 going to be writing with Alison and Sally, if 00:41:37.630 --> 00:41:42.010 she wants to contribute, where we hope to contribute 00:41:42.010 --> 00:41:45.869 to the reframing of the discourses around what 00:41:45.869 --> 00:41:48.809 internationalisation is. There's a really interesting 00:41:48.809 --> 00:41:51.670 network led by Jenna Mittelmeyer, Sophie Loma 00:41:51.670 --> 00:41:53.429 and other people at the University of Manchester, 00:41:53.489 --> 00:41:56.980 which has now gone... viral, international, and 00:41:56.980 --> 00:42:00.860 we are regular contributors to practitioner -based 00:42:00.860 --> 00:42:03.320 talks. So we are able to get beyond just the 00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:07.059 standard research little bubble and try and really 00:42:07.059 --> 00:42:09.840 get out to people who are engaged as professionals 00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:14.679 and as leaders. We have, you know, deans of internationalisation 00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:17.699 in universities in Brazil coming along and hearing 00:42:17.699 --> 00:42:19.340 what we're doing. So I think, you know, we are 00:42:19.340 --> 00:42:23.309 really trying to... Make sure that the the work 00:42:23.309 --> 00:42:27.730 we do feeds into the broadest possible narratives 00:42:27.730 --> 00:42:30.730 where both practitioner practices, institutional 00:42:30.730 --> 00:42:34.309 strategic planning, as well as research readership 00:42:34.309 --> 00:42:37.650 can can can gain traction. But I think what we 00:42:37.650 --> 00:42:39.969 really, really want to do, and I will have to 00:42:39.969 --> 00:42:42.590 talk with Sally and Alison later about this, 00:42:42.650 --> 00:42:45.190 is what we can do in our in our daily teaching 00:42:45.190 --> 00:42:50.260 lives. Our standard assumption when we plan the 00:42:50.260 --> 00:42:52.480 module review and the way we think about teaching 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:54.920 for the coming year. Oh, that's the week in which 00:42:54.920 --> 00:42:58.059 if I do nothing else in the rest of the module 00:42:58.059 --> 00:43:01.619 in that week, I will make sure I do something 00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:04.719 which is going to be an activity, not not a telling, 00:43:04.820 --> 00:43:07.239 but a showing. And it's where the students show 00:43:07.239 --> 00:43:10.380 me, not what I show them. I would like that to 00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:14.199 be a general. mantra that we could spread far 00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:16.420 and wide, I think. But anyway, yes, so various 00:43:16.420 --> 00:43:18.559 more outreaches to come. And we've got, I think, 00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:20.300 a presentation at the Student Success Conference. 00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:24.119 We have, yes. So Claire and I will be talking 00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:27.239 about this there and sharing these resources. 00:43:27.420 --> 00:43:29.579 And we're doing it, I think, as a workshop where 00:43:29.579 --> 00:43:32.079 people can come along and actually have a look 00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:34.019 at the resources, have a look at the infographics, 00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:36.179 think about whether they could use them as they 00:43:36.179 --> 00:43:39.239 are or how they would adapt to their cohorts. 00:43:39.460 --> 00:43:43.760 And we've also... put in a proposal with sally 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:47.300 to talk at the student education conference so 00:43:47.300 --> 00:43:51.980 please do accept that proposal and then sally 00:43:51.980 --> 00:43:54.059 will have an opportunity to share her perspective 00:43:54.059 --> 00:43:59.119 again we've also um out of a talk which you gave 00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:02.599 to the European scholarship conference what we 00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:06.940 call SOTL had some people at your workshop that 00:44:06.940 --> 00:44:09.320 were interested in hearing more so we're going 00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:13.260 to independently set up a catch up network event 00:44:13.260 --> 00:44:16.320 if you like so we'll start to explore how far 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:20.480 there's a community of practice involving perhaps 00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:24.300 ex -students even new students and practitioners 00:44:24.300 --> 00:44:27.260 so that it can continue to be an iterative process 00:44:27.260 --> 00:44:30.099 this is not something that just finishes this 00:44:30.099 --> 00:44:37.340 is a start of a journey I think but yeah watch 00:44:37.340 --> 00:44:44.190 this space indeed I think It's clear that we 00:44:44.190 --> 00:44:47.050 all see the project as not finished and almost 00:44:47.050 --> 00:44:51.010 like the start of a new chapter. And, you know, 00:44:51.030 --> 00:44:53.210 that we're implementing this into our own, not 00:44:53.210 --> 00:44:57.349 just our own practice, but trying to shape school, 00:44:57.349 --> 00:45:01.550 faculty, university, internationalisation, inclusivity 00:45:01.550 --> 00:45:05.289 agendas. For me personally, I don't know about 00:45:05.289 --> 00:45:08.699 Claire, but I've particularly enjoyed... this 00:45:08.699 --> 00:45:11.480 aspect of student partnership and I know it's 00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:13.460 something that the university is just starting 00:45:13.460 --> 00:45:17.159 to kind of investigate, explore, promote a little 00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:21.139 bit more. So as Claire I think mentioned before 00:45:21.139 --> 00:45:23.440 we've both kind of joined that student partnership 00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:27.659 incubator space. I've been to a few events like 00:45:27.659 --> 00:45:31.260 that as well so I'm particularly interested given 00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:33.500 my work in the School of Sociology and Social 00:45:33.500 --> 00:45:37.280 Policy. I'm particularly interested in continuing 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:40.199 to partner with students like Sally to understand 00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:42.960 their lived experiences, because every every 00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:45.420 cohort is different. Every student is different. 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:51.699 And really to help empower students to make the 00:45:51.699 --> 00:45:54.340 university experience what they want it to be. 00:45:54.920 --> 00:45:58.119 I know that sounds a bit idealistic, but that's 00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:01.760 my mission. inspired by the work of bell hooks 00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:05.500 and Paulo Freire well if universities can't be 00:46:05.500 --> 00:46:08.719 a space for idealism then you know we have lost 00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:12.000 our heart and soul so yes I fully echo that that 00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:16.079 sense of of um and of optimism you know um I 00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:18.480 think there's as sally has alluded to that there's 00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:21.440 there's a lot of difficult discourses around 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:24.099 where the higher education space is where it's 00:46:25.099 --> 00:46:27.320 We've seen what's happening in other countries. 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:31.579 I really hope Leeds hangs on to its hat as the 00:46:31.579 --> 00:46:34.659 winds buffet it. But we have made this commitment 00:46:34.659 --> 00:46:37.780 to the hashtag WeAreInternational campaign run 00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:41.460 by the UK Charter for International Students 00:46:41.460 --> 00:46:46.420 Engagement and Achievement. And I think if we 00:46:46.420 --> 00:46:50.659 state we have a commitment to maintaining these 00:46:50.659 --> 00:46:54.980 standards, then we must put our feet. We walk 00:46:54.980 --> 00:47:03.059 the talk. Great. So, you know, you've obviously 00:47:03.059 --> 00:47:05.579 had a very busy project. You've already done 00:47:05.579 --> 00:47:07.480 a lot of shouting about the project, which is 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:09.280 something that, you know, it's really nice to 00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:11.400 see people being proactive and sharing their 00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:15.260 work. What advice would you have for others then 00:47:15.260 --> 00:47:17.940 that are considering pedagogical research, SOTL, 00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:20.840 or anything that you might have done differently 00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:25.380 in your work? I think we both agreed that, and 00:47:25.380 --> 00:47:27.920 we were very, very thankful, particularly in 00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:30.079 that first year when we had the delay because 00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:33.940 of ethics approval. We definitely strongly recommend 00:47:33.940 --> 00:47:37.360 a research project beyond one year. I think perhaps 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:42.219 for our aims, certainly, it just wouldn't have 00:47:42.219 --> 00:47:45.550 worked in a year, would it? So, you know, not 00:47:45.550 --> 00:47:48.309 just for those technical reasons, but also because, 00:47:48.409 --> 00:47:50.170 you know, if you want to have any meaningful 00:47:50.170 --> 00:47:52.969 impact. And also, I guess, because of the nature 00:47:52.969 --> 00:47:56.489 of what we were investigating, we wanted to have 00:47:56.489 --> 00:47:59.130 that sort of reiteration, didn't we, to sort 00:47:59.130 --> 00:48:03.650 of almost, we haven't mentioned it, but we were 00:48:03.650 --> 00:48:06.789 also kind of concerned that at the start of our 00:48:06.789 --> 00:48:09.050 project, which is just as we were coming out 00:48:09.050 --> 00:48:12.150 of COVID, were there any sort of, you know, pandemic. 00:48:13.160 --> 00:48:16.320 influences that we hadn't thought about now five 00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:19.340 years later perhaps that's something we can go 00:48:19.340 --> 00:48:22.340 back to our data and sort of think about but 00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:27.139 um yeah so we were very keen to set out to make 00:48:27.139 --> 00:48:29.539 a difference and not just collect data that was 00:48:29.539 --> 00:48:34.690 shelved we were advised at the beginning to not 00:48:34.690 --> 00:48:37.510 be disappointed if the data just got shelled. 00:48:37.610 --> 00:48:40.130 And I think that almost gave us a fire in our 00:48:40.130 --> 00:48:43.630 bellies, didn't it, Claire? Like, no, we are 00:48:43.630 --> 00:48:45.550 going to make sure that this has some impact. 00:48:46.010 --> 00:48:49.530 So regular, we've regularly met, communicated, 00:48:50.030 --> 00:48:53.389 updated, made changes to really make sure. Yeah. 00:48:53.769 --> 00:48:58.679 And I think that confidence. We took time to 00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:01.119 work through the application. I would encourage 00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:04.820 people not to snatch at it because I think you 00:49:04.820 --> 00:49:08.880 can put together a nice idea but sort of fall 00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:11.599 over with methodology that just isn't quite rigorously 00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:16.239 enough planned. If you've got time to ensure 00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:18.719 that a relatively straightforward methodology 00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:22.710 plan that will deliver. something also has a 00:49:22.710 --> 00:49:24.730 bit of flexibility so that you can adjust if 00:49:24.730 --> 00:49:27.590 need be. I think that gives you that sense of 00:49:27.590 --> 00:49:31.070 adaptability that I think all good research should 00:49:31.070 --> 00:49:35.170 allow for a bit of the bumps, as Alison said. 00:49:36.349 --> 00:49:39.590 But I think take lots of advice. I think be confident 00:49:39.590 --> 00:49:42.130 in the ambition of your project, but try and 00:49:42.130 --> 00:49:44.530 make sure that at least one real world application 00:49:44.530 --> 00:49:47.829 is designed to come out of it. Also, just that 00:49:47.829 --> 00:49:50.519 sense of ambition that. scholarship is changing 00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:52.960 with pedagogic research is really essential for 00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:55.820 for shift for helping universities shift as institutions 00:49:55.820 --> 00:49:58.900 and so having a bit of extra time to realize 00:49:58.900 --> 00:50:01.239 how your work fits in with other people is really 00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:03.539 important leads as a huge institution and we 00:50:03.539 --> 00:50:04.880 kept finding people who are doing stuff that 00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:07.320 was a little bit similar to us and we just didn't 00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:10.460 know and so we've we've actually made that one 00:50:10.460 --> 00:50:14.179 of our our core sort of reflection aims is who 00:50:14.179 --> 00:50:17.260 do we now know is interested in what we're doing, 00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:19.260 what are they doing that we're interested in, 00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:21.639 and we're making a point of trying to keep up 00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:24.960 those contacts. Because otherwise it can feel 00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:26.900 like you're whistling in the wind, even if it's 00:50:26.900 --> 00:50:29.599 really, really good work. And so I would really 00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:31.599 encourage people doing the pedagogic research, 00:50:31.780 --> 00:50:33.699 make sure you're well connected, use all the 00:50:33.699 --> 00:50:37.059 light activities as fellow events and so forth. 00:50:37.179 --> 00:50:40.280 You never know who you meet. And I think research, 00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:43.139 yes, is about you and a focus and a direction, 00:50:43.179 --> 00:50:45.829 but it's also being open to encounters. that 00:50:45.829 --> 00:50:47.909 can change the way you think. And that's important. 00:50:48.289 --> 00:50:51.909 And I just add that doing it collaboratively, 00:50:51.909 --> 00:50:56.090 definitely recommend. I just live to formally 00:50:56.090 --> 00:50:59.309 as we're being recorded. Thank Claire, because 00:50:59.309 --> 00:51:03.019 it's been amazing. And I know our. Our sort of 00:51:03.019 --> 00:51:05.400 collaboration is not going to finish now. We're 00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:08.179 already kind of like, oh, yes, we could do this 00:51:08.179 --> 00:51:12.920 next. Take on higher education. Research can 00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:15.219 be a lonely road. And I would say this for students. 00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:16.980 I always say it for students and I say it for 00:51:16.980 --> 00:51:21.800 colleagues in research active roles. And if you're 00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:25.679 taking on a pedagogy or scholarship focused research 00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:28.320 project, this may be the first time you've gone 00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:30.059 into a sort of an extended piece of work for 00:51:30.059 --> 00:51:33.289 a while. just having other people to help you. 00:51:33.329 --> 00:51:35.909 And it gets to the point where you can't remember 00:51:35.909 --> 00:51:37.489 why you're doing it. You're not sure about what 00:51:37.489 --> 00:51:40.570 you're finding. That long, dark night of the 00:51:40.570 --> 00:51:42.690 soul that happens in every single project that 00:51:42.690 --> 00:51:45.070 comes. And Alison was always there, particularly 00:51:45.070 --> 00:51:47.550 for me, who can get a bit caught up in the sort 00:51:47.550 --> 00:51:49.610 of philosophical whys and wherefores. Yeah, but 00:51:49.610 --> 00:51:51.530 we're going to do this step next. And I'd like 00:51:51.530 --> 00:51:52.889 to thank Alison too, because it's been great 00:51:52.889 --> 00:51:55.510 fun. And I think we got to places that individually, 00:51:55.670 --> 00:51:57.809 certainly I wouldn't have got to. So thank you. 00:51:58.050 --> 00:52:02.679 And thanks, Ali. thank you there's too much to 00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:04.579 say thank you to sally on air we will we will 00:52:04.579 --> 00:52:08.320 do a lot off air but you know it's I think um 00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:12.900 having someone who's been so able to spare her 00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:16.099 time and so willing to share her insights it's 00:52:16.099 --> 00:52:19.619 been a fantastic partnership thank you yeah and 00:52:19.619 --> 00:52:22.000 I think it's great to hear like about you know, 00:52:22.019 --> 00:52:23.880 making connections and collaborating with each 00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:26.139 other. And I guess that's the importance of now 00:52:26.139 --> 00:52:28.219 we've got like incubators that hopefully help 00:52:28.219 --> 00:52:30.219 people make those connections. So it's linking 00:52:30.219 --> 00:52:33.480 people to those. You might just find people who, 00:52:33.539 --> 00:52:35.920 you know, can strengthen your voice and are on 00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:38.239 the same page as you and have expertise that 00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:41.320 maybe, you know, you might need to depend on 00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:43.219 later on. And it's so important to make those 00:52:43.219 --> 00:52:45.519 connections. I guess the last question then, 00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:48.559 Sally, is What advice would you give to staff 00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:51.059 thinking about engaging students or students 00:52:51.059 --> 00:52:53.159 wanting to get involved in pedagogical research? 00:52:54.500 --> 00:53:00.840 So I'll start with the staff. And the two things 00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:04.840 I would say first is be open with students and 00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:08.880 be open for students. So be open with students 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:12.460 just means tell students what the project is, 00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:15.800 what the goals are, what the involvement entails. 00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:21.039 Tell them what you'll do with the results, what 00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:23.900 they will be used for, so that students can give 00:53:23.900 --> 00:53:28.579 as much informed consent as possible and that 00:53:28.579 --> 00:53:31.360 they are not blindsided by the research process. 00:53:32.179 --> 00:53:35.900 Yes, that is be open with students as much as 00:53:35.900 --> 00:53:39.559 you can, but also be open for students. So that 00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:44.059 means get away from this research paradigm of 00:53:44.059 --> 00:53:48.369 researcher and the researched. It is so important 00:53:48.369 --> 00:53:51.630 to give students a chance to safely articulate 00:53:51.630 --> 00:53:54.869 and express their experiences and how they navigate 00:53:54.869 --> 00:53:59.389 student life and life in general in the UK. That 00:53:59.389 --> 00:54:05.309 can really help to change not only the paradigm, 00:54:05.429 --> 00:54:10.690 but also to show, oh, this narrative that I'm 00:54:10.690 --> 00:54:14.090 having, I see now, I've never seen it before. 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:17.360 I've never thought of these things like that. 00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:19.500 I've never seen these things and they helped 00:54:19.500 --> 00:54:22.699 me to see it because they, you know, they've 00:54:22.699 --> 00:54:26.119 highlighted it. So I think as a researcher, it 00:54:26.119 --> 00:54:28.679 is vital to allow this, even though, and this 00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:30.639 is also something we need to be honest about, 00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:36.119 it can push us into a space of discomfort or 00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:41.000 disagreement. Having, you know, being challenged 00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:44.769 is not easy. We all know what it feels like when 00:54:44.769 --> 00:54:47.130 somebody disagrees with us, how frustrating that 00:54:47.130 --> 00:54:50.710 can be. And it's even more frustrating when you 00:54:50.710 --> 00:54:53.050 think about it afterwards and you realize, oh, 00:54:53.070 --> 00:55:00.710 they had a point. But I think that is what makes 00:55:00.710 --> 00:55:03.510 interaction, research isn't interaction, it's 00:55:03.510 --> 00:55:05.070 relational. That's what makes it interesting. 00:55:05.489 --> 00:55:09.110 So discomfort and disagreements can be interesting. 00:55:09.880 --> 00:55:13.440 But it is hard work. It's hard work in pedagogical 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:16.340 practice and in research and on a personal level 00:55:16.340 --> 00:55:19.800 as well. But I think these are the three levels 00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:23.000 where this discomfort and this disagreement can 00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:27.400 be explored. And I think that when they are reflected, 00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:30.699 it can be very enriching on all these levels, 00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:36.940 I believe. And for students, I would say, take 00:55:36.940 --> 00:55:39.369 these opportunities when they come. If there's 00:55:39.369 --> 00:55:41.789 something where you think, oh, this might be 00:55:41.789 --> 00:55:46.110 interesting to take part in, then do it. Be active 00:55:46.110 --> 00:55:50.429 and be vocal about your needs and your journey 00:55:50.429 --> 00:55:55.489 that you've been on. There's this saying, nothing 00:55:55.489 --> 00:55:58.250 about us without us, which I think comes from 00:55:58.250 --> 00:56:01.829 disability studies. But it is an important rule 00:56:01.829 --> 00:56:05.750 for anything that impacts your life. something 00:56:05.750 --> 00:56:08.190 has an influence on you, you should be able to 00:56:08.190 --> 00:56:11.909 feed back and change it and to give that feedback 00:56:11.909 --> 00:56:14.630 about how it influences you and what the impact 00:56:14.630 --> 00:56:17.690 is. So I would encourage everyone to take part 00:56:17.690 --> 00:56:21.630 in meaningful research, such as Alison's and 00:56:21.630 --> 00:56:25.130 Claire's, but also find productive channels outside 00:56:25.130 --> 00:56:30.010 of research where you can articulate your needs 00:56:30.010 --> 00:56:34.460 and the things that influence your opinion about 00:56:34.460 --> 00:56:39.440 them. So I do appreciate that that is hard for 00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:43.179 some people. The project was called Stepping 00:56:43.179 --> 00:56:48.099 Out, Standing Up. That is a huge thing for some 00:56:48.099 --> 00:56:50.840 people. A lot of our students are very young. 00:56:51.019 --> 00:56:55.059 A lot of our students are from backgrounds where 00:56:55.059 --> 00:56:59.019 that is not very much encouraged. So it is a 00:56:59.019 --> 00:57:02.869 huge... thing to say to people and I do appreciate 00:57:02.869 --> 00:57:05.769 that but I still think it is important you know 00:57:05.769 --> 00:57:09.969 actively pushing to have one's needs fulfilled 00:57:09.969 --> 00:57:13.989 doesn't come easy to everyone and especially 00:57:13.989 --> 00:57:17.929 at university there are power dynamics involved 00:57:17.929 --> 00:57:20.269 you know it's easy for me to say now that I'm 00:57:20.269 --> 00:57:22.469 not a student anymore to be like oh yeah you 00:57:22.469 --> 00:57:25.510 know just tell your lecturer that you don't like 00:57:25.510 --> 00:57:28.610 what they are doing or participate in this research 00:57:28.610 --> 00:57:31.550 project where, you know, and just really, you 00:57:31.550 --> 00:57:34.010 know, give it to them, just tell them everything. 00:57:34.449 --> 00:57:38.449 Because Alison also mentioned in one of our events, 00:57:38.610 --> 00:57:41.070 for example, one research participant asked her 00:57:41.070 --> 00:57:50.289 for a job reference. Yeah. So we do have to keep 00:57:50.289 --> 00:57:54.739 these power dynamics in mind. For students, when 00:57:54.739 --> 00:57:57.219 you do get involved in these projects, challenge 00:57:57.219 --> 00:58:02.199 yourself, push a little bit, but also like only 00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:04.360 to the degree that you're comfortable with. I 00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:06.940 want nobody to be lying in bed at night thinking, 00:58:07.059 --> 00:58:09.260 oh, my God, I can't believe I've said that. That 00:58:09.260 --> 00:58:15.699 was too much. But I do think that students, there 00:58:15.699 --> 00:58:18.000 used to be this really great student culture 00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:20.699 of this counterculture of student movements. 00:58:22.269 --> 00:58:24.610 a huge part in Germany, and we still talk about 00:58:24.610 --> 00:58:28.789 it, the years of 1968, 1969, how students influenced 00:58:28.789 --> 00:58:33.809 everything, politics, you know, how they challenged 00:58:33.809 --> 00:58:38.369 narratives. And I just want that to come back 00:58:38.369 --> 00:58:41.570 in a way, and again to counter this narrative 00:58:41.570 --> 00:58:44.420 of... oh, it's just student politics, you know, 00:58:44.460 --> 00:58:46.719 that's a bit silly. Everybody is so political 00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:49.739 in university and then they come into the real 00:58:49.739 --> 00:58:53.039 world and it will change. No, university is the 00:58:53.039 --> 00:58:57.980 real world. You know, it is connected to the 00:58:57.980 --> 00:59:01.659 real world and we all are. So that is what I 00:59:01.659 --> 00:59:04.739 would recommend to students. I've never regretted 00:59:04.739 --> 00:59:09.000 participating in these projects. I might have 00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:11.260 thought afterwards, oh, I should have said that 00:59:11.260 --> 00:59:14.699 differently. But, you know, being part of these 00:59:14.699 --> 00:59:17.199 things and trying to make a difference, I think 00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:20.699 that is really, really worth, you know, your 00:59:20.699 --> 00:59:23.659 time and the effort, especially because now, 00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:27.260 as Claire mentioned earlier, we are in an environment 00:59:27.260 --> 00:59:30.739 at the moment where things are quite scary for 00:59:30.739 --> 00:59:34.760 a lot of reasons. So that can also be an avenue 00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.159 to say like, OK, this is how I interact with 00:59:38.159 --> 00:59:40.900 these things. This is something I can do to challenge 00:59:40.900 --> 00:59:45.059 these things. And that's such an important point, 00:59:45.059 --> 00:59:47.280 isn't it? You know, encouraging students to feel 00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:49.980 safe, to express themselves in pedagogical research 00:59:49.980 --> 00:59:54.820 and hopefully capture some of their ideas. Right. 00:59:54.900 --> 00:59:56.860 Well, thank you very much for coming and sharing 00:59:56.860 --> 00:59:59.639 your project. Thank you. Thank you for assisting 00:59:59.639 --> 01:00:02.599 us at the beginning in the research as well. 01:00:03.019 --> 01:00:06.679 No worries. And I'll link any sort of outputs 01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:09.539 into the show notes for people to find out more 01:00:09.539 --> 01:00:11.690 about your project. Great. Thanks very much. 01:00:11.690 --> 01:00:13.630 And come along to the Student Success Conference. 01:00:14.150 --> 01:00:15.570 Indeed. And the Student Education Conference, 01:00:15.590 --> 01:00:18.969 if we're accepted. If we get accepted, yes. Watch 01:00:18.969 --> 01:00:19.469 this space.