Welcome to LITE Bites, an occasional podcast
from Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence
at the University of Leeds. Episodes will be
hosted by members of the Light team. And we'll
be showcasing the scholarship of teaching and
learning from across the university. Hello, you're
listening to LITE Bites. I'm Robert Averies.
And I'm Hayley Bullard. And we're joined today
by Jenny Brady and Mike Kerr. to talk about their
LITE research, listening to disabled students
for an inclusive curriculum. Great to see you
both. How are you both today? Good, thank you.
Yeah, really good, thank you. Thanks for having
me. Thanks for coming. Perhaps then we could
start with some introductions and you could tell
listeners what you do at the University of Leeds.
So I'm Jenny Brady and I'm the Inclusive Learning
and Teaching Manager. I'm based in educational
engagement within the Student Success Centre.
I've actually got two roles. I'm also the light
incubator lead for inclusive education and belonging.
So really trying to kind of draw together and
create a community of practice around research
in that area. And within my inclusive... learning
and teaching manager role and trying to embed
a culture of inclusive teaching through the curriculum.
Yeah, so I'm Mike Kerr. I'm a resident doctor
now in the NHS but previously when I was working
on this project I was a medical student here
at Leeds. I also was employed as a research assistant
at Light and I formed a wonderful relationship
now with Jenny over the years but I was particularly
invested in this project because of my own lived
experiences and intersectionality with disabilities
and other things I'm quite passionate about helping
students with some of those lived experiences.
Fantastic. Perhaps you could give listeners a
sense of what motivated you both to get into
this research to begin with. So a number of years
ago, I worked in disability services. Well, I
worked in disability services as a disability
practitioner for about 14 years. That gave me
the passion really to try to change the culture
around inclusive teaching because I was making
the same recommendations for reasonable adjustments
again and again and again but nothing was really
happening to change that in terms of how teaching
was designed and delivered. So I got the opportunity
in 2019 to actually join the core team of Light
to carry out a research project across the whole
institution to understand the extent to which
we were delivering or not an inclusive experience
for our students. And that was related to the
university's baseline standards for inclusive
learning and teaching, which have been agreed
in 2018. Now, one of the recommendations from
that research was that we really needed to understand
the experiences of disabled students more because
there were so many recommendations for ways in
which we were not yet really kind of being inclusive
enough. It was a case to say, where do we actually
start and what would disabled students want us
to prioritise? And that's where I got the idea
for this research project to involve Mike in
this research. Yeah, as I mentioned previously,
for me, I learned through different experiences
on different projects with light that I really
enjoyed research. So I was equipped with some
skills already. Being a doctor anyway, it's all
about lifelong research and engaging with research
and different types of research methodologies.
For me, there was a personal draw towards this
project, as I say, because of like different
intersectionalities of students and different
lived experiences. So in particular, the most
relevant for this for me. I have disabilities,
so I have connective tissue disease for people
who are listening to that. And they don't know
what that is. So that's an autoimmune disease
that affects me systemically. So like tiredness,
fatigue, mobility issues, joint pain, joint swelling,
all those types of things. And then in addition
to that, I also have complex PTSD. There was
my own experiences and then I've got lots of
friends that have experience with disabilities
too. So I was just really drawn to this project
and I was quite eager and keen to learn from
Jenny and all of her experience. One of the reasons
why we really wanted to bring Mike into this
project was because we felt that actually...
Having Mike interviewing and speaking with other
disabled students would really help to bring
out the best in those students because they could
relate to a fellow student who also understood
the experience of being disabled. So that was
really kind of key to the research design here.
Fantastic. And a lovely segue into the next question,
which I'll hand over to Hayley for. um yeah so
could you give listeners an overview of the research
design so how it went you went about it did it
all go to plan um or did plans change over time
i'm not necessarily sure anybody can say that
research goes um so i think if you ask anybody
that that question they would say it did not
go to plan but i think that's normal that's an
um uh like the word is uh iterative isn't it
it's a very iterative process and um You learn
as you go, you go on with an idea and that changes.
The research design for this, as Jenny says,
is so that we did 30 minute, roughly 30 minute
interviews with 10 students and they were conducted
by me and they were semi -structured interviews.
I kind of went in there thinking about the types
of questions that we wanted to ask them, but
then we followed on and were very much led by
the students to explore those, the kind of feelings
and the questions that they brought. And then
we took that data and used Bron and Clark's thematic
analysis. We went over it once and we had hundreds
and hundreds of calls for a very long time. And
then we sought some advice from another colleague
to get some feedback on the stuff that we'd done.
And then we realised that actually the most appropriate
thing to do was to, when we reviewed those courses,
was to make them more person -centred. So I statements,
me statements, to really have that punch to really
draw on what the lived experiences of what students
were. And then we took those, assembled them
into themes and we were able to identify recommendations.
from that I think the the only thing that I would
say is that as Jenny was saying when she designed
this project it was like oh like what do we do
now like what do we do next I think we realized
as we were doing the codes that actually ended
up turning into like a system -wide review didn't
it it's like it became it ended up becoming a
massive project that was my experience a bit
from kind of what I'm not sure what your thoughts
are now it started off probably probably in your
head a bit smaller than what it really turned
out didn't it yeah yeah yeah I didn't anticipate
that we would be spending days and days together
poring over this excel spreadsheet and yeah what's
that supposed to mean but we were just adding
things into this into this spreadsheet but it
was intense it was really intense because we
were feeling everything that we were reading
weren't we and and and and kind of then then
categorizing it but yeah it was it it was a really
intense few days i think that's a really important
point as well because like you know that i think
um you know it's particularly when you do uh
research on um topics like this that you know
that you're aware can be quite emotive or sensitive
there were just days weren't there where we just
like paused and we literally like I mean, I don't
mind saying I was just crying, like just reading
the quotes. And actually, I think when you go
into research, you have an idea of how you're
going to do it and what the process will look
like. But when you do research topics like this,
they're very emotionally intensive, aren't they?
Yeah. Yeah. There were tears. And actually, you
know, drawing on my own experience of being a
disability practitioner. I thought that I'd had
every conversation that I needed to have to understand
the experiences of disabled students. I thought
disabled students were opening up to me in that
capacity. But no, there was an extra layer that
would have never been revealed to me had it not
been for this research. So I'm really, really
grateful for having learned the value of research
through this process. Again, that's another nice
segue into the next question, really. So what
did you learn and what were the main findings
of your research? I think for me, when I was
in that disability practitioner role, it used
to frustrate me that students weren't... going
to their um to their module leaders or you know
or to their teaching staff to let them know that
particular adjustments that they had expected
to be in place actually weren't in place they
weren't doing that but they were coming to me
instead and i was getting frustrated think well
why do i always have to be the middle person
like this is not not efficient but through this
research i really realize that there are micro
decisions that our disabled students are making
every day about whether or not that request will
be met positively. And I don't mean that they
fear that staff won't put the adjustment in place,
but I think sometimes if there's an... perhaps
an overreaction of sympathy then that is actually
unwanted from the student's perspective because
they don't want to make a fuss they don't want
to be a burden they don't want to tell somebody
something that they perhaps should have already
known but perhaps they were too busy to you know
look at the paperwork or or whatever there so
so sometimes what came through was that students
were holding themselves back from actually asking
for the thing that they needed just to kind of
save their dignity and to kind of smooth the
path. So by helping someone else, they were actually
hurting themselves. So all of these micro decisions.
And then also the main thing, another thing was
that they were risking... the extra effort and
the energy that goes into kind of just the admin
around being a disabled student and getting your
support set up actually can put a student's health
further at risk or mental health or physical
health. So they were two of the things. What
else was there for you, Mike? Yeah, I mean, I
think that, as I say, it ended up becoming like
where we started. it ended up becoming almost
like an institutional review. That's kind of
where it ended up. And we split it down with
the themes on three different levels. So it was
person -centred was theme one, classroom -type
level, so more of a group -type setting. And
then the third theme was all about as an institution.
So you can see kind of how we went from person,
group, institution. The thing that really came
through in theme one was the repetitive disclosure
from students because the system was experienced
as quite inefficient by students overall. That
was just incredibly jarring for them. And as
Jenny says, that they would just, they would
resent having to repeatedly disclose to the point
where they wouldn't because discussing. uh your
own disability everybody has different experiences
um at least in mind that disclosing it that they're
always there's that um feeling of perhaps shame
am i going to be judged by by by the recipient
of this conversation and i think a lot of students
feel that having disclosed it once which you
know can bring all those feelings of of shame
and uh that that come up that to have to repeatedly
do that um actually that is incredibly jarring
for somebody to do that and then uh on a classroom
type level um the the types of things that that
came up were about um the uh teaching wasn't
designed in a way that was fully fully inclusive
for them and um one of the codes was like reasonable
adjustments don't work for me i think that was
one of the um sub themes and um just about the
different types of teaching and but that that
that led on to uh quite lengthy discussions with
us because ultimately is it really possible to
decide I'd like to to design teaching that truly
is inclusive for um everybody because I think
what we're saying is that we can be inclusive
but I guess not everybody will always be happy
because ultimately what works for me might not
work for you Hayley and I think what That was
a long discussion between me and Jenny, like,
where's the happy medium so we can try and cater
for everybody? But I think that can often be
difficult to achieve. And then systemically,
it was looking at all the different aspects of
a student. So looking at the way that systems
work in the University of Leeds, whether that
be reasonable adjustments or disclosing things.
And actually. Some students came from one participation
background. They were single parents, working
class backgrounds, and they often found that
the struggles that they were having inside the
university as a disabled student, that the other
intersectionalities of the student, they compounded
those difficulties. So those are kind of the
key things that I took away. There's some really
great theme maps that we've done. um but i think
ultimately with the all the data that we had
there was so much it's it's often difficult to
look at it and as i say it ended up becoming
like an institution uh review it's difficult
to look at that and say okay where do we go now
because almost it was like okay well this is
this and this and this and it's it's really difficult
to yeah systems can take a while to change yeah
i think one thing that i would dig into further
um is that finding around um students who had
physical disabilities were more likely to have
their needs met than if they had an invisible
disability so let's say a specific learning difference
or a mental health condition and I think one
of our participants had both of those and so
was able to see that from from both perspectives
and I think you know there was there was certainly
a sense that students recognized that if teaching
had been delivered or designed in a different
way in a kind of more inclusive way to start
with then it would benefit not just them but
other students their fellow students and their
peers and that that would have a huge impact
on their sense of belonging because it was just
that sense of kind of feeling different and knowing
that you're different and knowing that your needs
may not have been catered for or thought about
when you enter this environment again and again
and again quite difficult to listen to for sure
yeah and then in the um in in the classroom setting
um feelings of belonging came up came up quite
a lot i know that's an area that's had quite
a significant amount of research in in in recent
years but yeah i mean it it makes sense if you
feel other or different those feelings of not
belonging can definitely be compounded and um
the other thing to say is that see that there
were um Students, I guess it's an obvious answer,
but on that note, students described really quite
strong positive feelings and good academic outcomes
when they felt more included and they felt that
they had a sense of belonging in the university.
So in settings like that, they discussed that
their academic outcomes or grades were better
when they were made to feel more included. That's
a really important point because it's highlighting
that context specific. dynamic that's happening
yeah yeah yeah um should point out to listeners
at this stage that uh you can access this report
online and we'll include a link to that in the
show notes on that um before we get to the next
section you were mentioning a minute ago about
how the sample students that you recruited and
you talk a bit about in the report how that can
say some things but you'd like to you know that
wider sample would provide more in depth insights
but you do talk about how there is a correlation
between your findings and national data i wonder
if that's something you'd like to talk about
a bit more yeah absolutely so um Over the last
few years, there's been a sector wide disabled
students insights survey. So it's the access
and insights report. And there was one in 2023
and one in 2024. And there'll be another one.
So the survey has been out this year. And actually,
the 2023 and the 2024 report absolutely tie in
with what we've found here. So it's almost, you
know, it's great that we have. some data that
relates to our own context and helps to kind
of bring some colour and bring it to life about
what our own... drive and priorities needs to
be but this is a this is a sector -wide um picture
it's a sector -wide issue you know all of the
stuff around kind of information sharing the
bureaucracy around the disabled students allowances
the the culture around inclusive teaching and
inclusive assessment there's a lot of work that
we need to do as a sector to to really kind of
change practice and and move away from this knowledge
sitting with disability practitioners and services
and actually if we really think about that social
model of disability trying to get that awareness
into actually not just our staff who teach and
our educators but to everyone who has any kind
of role within the institution needs to understand
the concept of disability and how they, within
their roles, can affect that experience of disablement
for people that experience barriers. And on that,
what sorts of changes do you feel should be prioritised
going forward, whether that's at Leeds or, as
you say, more widely? I think training around
disability is absolutely crucial. So, you know,
to help people to gain that mindset and even
understanding what the word disability actually
means, because, you know, people shy away from
it. But actually, it's a helpful word when we
understand that it really is about the context
and the person's experience within that context.
So I think that that's one key thing. And then,
you know, the kind of systems of information
sharing are absolutely broken and have been broken
for a long time. But that needs to be, you know.
institutionally we need investment in a system
that actually works whereby our educators can
get access to the information that they need
because actually if we if we're able to effectively
scale up on our inclusive practice we would reduce
the requirement for so many reasonable adjustments
and then we would be able to prioritize the adjustments
that are needed for students with more complex
disabilities or sensory impairments. So there
are a few shifts that are needed to actually,
you know, help everybody to get the information
that they need and to get the right environments
in place for people just to thrive and feel that
they belong. And you talk about in the report
about how there's training. ought to be rooted
in the social model of disability yeah focused
on hidden disabilities and intersectionality
yeah for sure i mean that's what i was just about
to um pick up on yeah so it's about looking um
looking at disabled students holistically and
more as a whole person rather than exclusively
like all of the medical aspects as it were of
what what one particular disability might mean
it's looking at like how does this impact this
person as a human being like what are the other
factors of this person's life as well that that
may make their disability more complex um and
um i think as well just thinking about um it's
it's worth just uh it's worth just mentioning
that obviously the data was uh incredibly rich
um in this and there was a There was a lot to
sift through, and as Jenny says, these were backed
up by the other work that's been going on, but
I think more still perhaps needs to be done,
as always, in research. This was with ten students,
which out of a student sample potentially of
thousands, you can very much argue that perhaps
might not be entirely representative. The other
aspect, which I guess might be like a limitation
of this study, is the fact that like when you
think about response bias, so often it's like,
you know, if you go to the supermarket, for example,
and it doesn't your experience wasn't great,
you're more likely to then contact somebody and
say, OK, this is a problem. So when we when we
when this was advertised to students. essentially
what I'm saying with the response bias is that
there's a chance that people who have very strong
feelings, whether they be positive or negative,
may be more likely to have engaged with this
research. That's the thing. But I think in terms
of the recommendations, I think the thing that
stood out most to me was thinking about just
designing systems that are compassionate towards...
I think that's really, really, really important
because the thing that repeatedly came through
was about the reasonable adjustment system and
the way that it makes students feel having to
repeatedly disclose those things. So thinking
about how can we design those systems, some changes
moving forward that I would like to see off the
back of this would be thinking about how can
we make that more compassionate with students
because ultimately that's who this is for. all
systems should be designed with the student in
mind and what their experience will be using
that system. And Jenny's already picked upon
teaching. And then I guess finally, as I said,
with the intersectionality aspect, it's about
really just looking at this person rather than
just this is the... this is the new system that
we're going to implement looking looking at how
that's going to integrate in the university and
just looking at that person as a whole human
being and thinking about what the rest of their
student experience would be like maybe this is
partly the kind of stuff i like reading about
as well but and being involved with but this
work seems to be a part of an important part
of wider discussions around compassionate approaches
to higher education as you were saying mike There
are lots of kind of emerging concepts, ways of
looking at higher education, whether that's in
teaching, whether it's in wider design of structures
in higher education. Our student education conference
keynote spoke about this in terms of the ecological
university. I think that's a really interesting,
this is a really interesting example of how we
can look, as you say, Mike, holistically at students
as human beings and how we can consider all different
facets of what it means to be involved in higher
education and to learn and to be learning alongside
other people. And I'd be really excited to see
where this goes going forwards. I guess that
leads on to outputs you've produced. I mean,
just this conversation and hearing your reflections
is an amazing thing to be a part of. And also
I've mentioned the article that people can engage
with if they want a summary of the findings and
the methodology and I guess practical guidance
on how it might inform their people's work, whether
that's again in teaching or wider student education
practice. My plea would really be to engage with
all of the resources that we have around inclusive
learning and teaching. So there's a SharePoint
site dedicated to inclusivity and accessibility,
and it covers everything from kind of digital
accessibility to inclusive assessment to resources
around belonging and hidden curriculum. There
are a lot of small tweaks that people can make
to really improve the experiences of disabled
students. And what I'm trying to do within my
work is trying to get some kind of consistency,
really, because... that will then enable our
disability services to start scaling back on
making the recommendations for reasonable adjustments,
which should actually just be there as standard.
But they can't scale back on those recommendations
until they know that there is a level of quality,
because otherwise that's just not fair on students
to say, oh, yeah, well, we think that it should
be, you know, inclusive when you go onto this
module or this programme. But if we don't actually
know that, then... that feels a little bit negligent,
really. So we've got to get to a point where
we can understand the quality of our inclusive
provision. Yeah, we've done some amazing stuff
with this already. As you say, like this podcast,
it's been summarised in the... article that is
online um we've presented a few conferences including
an international one we went to utrecht to isotl
that was an amazing experience um yeah that that
was wonderful to be able to present this work
in such a huge, like at such a huge conference.
Like that was incredible. So we've done some
really exciting dissemination with this already.
And then this is still ongoing with the online
stuff. And then for me, so I'm in the process
with Jenny of just getting this all written up
to get it put in a out for publication next.
Yeah. So that'll be the next steps that'll be
happening over the next. the next few months
and then I think for me I was just reflecting
as Jenny was speaking as well I think you know
I've at least from my experience it's better
I felt I've learned so much from you over the
last few years and yeah it was it was a joy to
work with you on this it was it was really lovely
and you taught me so much and you know coming
from I think looking at research from a very
that very typical like medical way like this
is how we're going to do this and very but uh
listening to and learning from from from jenny's
experiences uh from disability and professional
services like i've learned so much and i think
um you know there are some findings in here that
can feel um like be quite sad to read but i think
you know like you've um consistently said that
you know if you ask anybody that goes into higher
education like they really um They really care
about the students and, you know, people who
work in professional services. They really do
care about getting this right. And I think the
point that we're trying to make is that it's
finding the system that works for students and
a system that works for staff and to be able
to to deliver that. And coming to university,
you know, it's a privilege. You know, it's such
a wonderful experience. And I think. At least
from my experience when I was going through medical
school, because it's quite a long time. University,
you know, it's a place where we should value
and celebrate everybody and all the intersectionality
and all the different aspects that that person
brings. And it's about, I think the university
needs to think about how can we really celebrate
our... our students and and and prepare them
because ultimately the the you know for most
people the whole point of getting a degree you
know is you're going to go on to professional
life of some sort so preparing disabled students
um and and really um universities embodying values
of of compassion that then students you know
can then take as professionals out into the working
world Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Kind of empowering
all students to kind of bring their full selves
both into their courses and outwards into their,
you know, into life beyond university. So, yeah.
And I'll just echo what Mike said about, you
know, enjoying the process of working together.
I've learned a lot and I'm really grateful for
having had the opportunity. Really grateful.
And also, you know. This is just a kind of shout
out to anyone who is kind of technical or professional
services, who doesn't have any kind of experience
in carrying out research or thinks that this
is perhaps not for them. I think if you have
a passion and an interest in something, it absolutely
is. For you, there are so many people that can
help you and steer you. And like Mike was saying
earlier, you know, we started taking an approach
and then we thought, OK, who can we check in
with about this? And so we asked somebody else
who had a lot more experience and they gave us
a steer. And, you know, it was brilliant. We're
here as a community. You know, we need to be
here to help each other. So don't be afraid if
you have a passion or an interest in something.
And particularly if, like me, you've been working
in an area for a long time. and you think that
you know everything that there is to know and
you actually don't because you haven't looked
at it from other angles. I think this relates
to what you were saying, Mike, about seeing ourselves
holistically. Yeah, I mean, I think pragmatically
it's very difficult to make any system in any
context that is perfect. Perfect is an unreasonable
expectation and that's in any sector, any context.
However, you know... In terms of the outputs
that you've come back to, when we're looking
at university, all students should feel that
they feel included and that they belong and that
the university is a safe space for them. And
that should be at the heart of any changes that
come into a university system. I think that's
kind of where I am. Great. So what next for you
on the podcast? So I am a full -time resident
doctor now in the NHS. My life is pretty busy,
but I'm engaged in other research too. For me,
next steps, as I say, will be to get this published.
I think it's really important. So much blood,
sweat and tears went into this, didn't it? It
would be a real shame and a travesty, to be honest,
to not use that rich data and get it out into
a publication. And the response that we've had
already from conferences and things like that
has been really positive. So next steps in terms
of for me in the immediate future to get this
published over the over the coming months. Sadly,
now, as obviously as I've left the University
of Leeds, I will no longer be working with with
Jenny. But I've I've been very lucky to have
formed a really great relationship with Jenny.
So, yeah, I'm really excited to see what comes
for you next. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, I mean,
for me, I'm just continuing on my mission to
make the university as inclusive as possible.
And and I think what I really like about this
is I always I always thought, well, I remember
when we were in the depths of analysing the quotes
and thinking this is really, really hard. But
I thought. We are creating a really shiny diamond
from this. Like we're polishing it and polishing
it and we're really, really, you know, firming
something up. And I think, you know, what I'd
really like to come from this is just a piece
of work that really helps to shift people's emotional
understanding of the experience of disability.
So I think however we take that forward, I think
that has to be at the core of it. Jenny, are
you in a position to share details of the Inclusive
Education and Belonging Incubator event in September?
Yes, yes, yes. So I'm in the stages of planning
an event which really is around kind of... building
our own community. So we've already on our incubator
channel, we already have around 90 members. So
these are people that are currently active or
thinking about carrying out research in the area
of inclusive education and belonging. We're also
constantly calling out for new members to join
us. What we're going to do with that event, which
we've scheduled in for the 24th of September,
we're going to have an opportunity for people
to meet with each other along particular themes
that they've already indicated that they're interested
in. start establishing those those relationships
and then we're going to hear from some of our
current light fellows around their their projects
and how they kind of collaborate together and
how that works and Something about the process
of applying for fellowships there. We're going
to hear from our strategic leads around how they
can help with kind of inclusive research design.
And then importantly, we're going to have a design
thinking element to the day where we can co -create
our own kind of community of practice ethos,
because I'm really passionate that we create
spaces where we can. bring our full selves into
our collaboration how we work together how we
kind of bounce off each other give give each
other peer feedback without those hierarchies
because i've heard from so many people feeling
like they have imposter syndrome and i think
well if everybody has imposter syndrome who who
is actually the right person to be here you know
everybody feels like they're not enough in some
way But to me, that's the whole point of having
a community. So, yeah, I'm really looking forward
to it and I'm really looking forward to what
relationships come out of this and what new ideas
are sparked. So sign up to the Light community,
the Incubator channel, Light newsletter, all
that stuff. Yeah. So moving on to the final question
then. So it sounds like you've developed quite
a good partnership while you're doing this research
project and it's been a bit of an emotional experience
at times. So thinking about other people that
might be venturing on to doing their own subtle
projects, pedagogical research projects, have
you got any advice for those people or is there
something you would do differently? That's a
very good question. I still asked. Yeah, I mean,
I think the only thing that I would say is just...
don't go in with that rigid idea of, you know,
this is what my methodology is going to look
like. This is how the process is going to go.
In my experience, the best research comes out
of those, you know, those. There's really like
eye watering moments where you're like, what
on earth am I doing? And it's incredibly difficult.
And then you've got to almost go back to the
drawing board. And it is very iterative. So just
throw yourself into that. Expect that that will
happen. That is a normal part of any research
process and also just a really good learning
experience, too. And then secondly, as I've said.
just be really willing to be open -minded and
uh to you know when you're working with research
partners and and the different the different
x because that that um for me going in with that
um or like i've never worked with somebody with
in in professional services before you know and
just being open to listen to what jenny's experiences
were and seeing the way that she looks at higher
education and from that from that different viewpoint
like i've learned so much um from from from jenny
and then sorry just to go back i was i was reflecting
as you were talking there was there was one other
thing that i think i um touched on as i was saying
that you know universities prepare uh students
to become professionals and again for me i think
that the final thing that i wanted to say the
thing that i'll be taking forward is as we prepare
people to go into professional settings like
for me as as as a doctor now so a part of so
the regulator the the gmc they set as standards
and as part of that standards one of them is
teaching so we must almost evidence that we're
we're we're teaching and and this has this project
and all these other different student experiences
that that we've analyzed for for me as a doctor
now i'll i will go on and consider like the person
that i'm teaching whether it be at the bed bedside
or uh in in in a classroom setting now um thinking
about like is what i'm saying and doing is it
is it working for everybody in the room? And
I think you can often get really invested if
you're busy, particularly if you are in a professional
setting. And there were quotes about being on
placement, weren't there? Like discussing this
exact thing and just thinking about how can we
make it more inclusive? And I was thinking about,
you know... people who are graduating now as
lawyers and the and the just all the different
professional type of uh settings or teachers
and um and thinking about how they can apply
this the lessons from this research and that
in a different professional context but yeah
i mean i guess uh that was just one thing i just
quickly wanted to return to i love that i'm glad
you did thank you And then I think, yeah, as
I say, just I was very lucky. And I'm not just
saying this with me. You really were a wonderful
person to work with. And I've and I've learned
so much from you. So I guess my my two points
are just be open to the experience, expect challenges,
but I guess embrace them. Yeah. And I think mine
would be also be open minded to to learning about
each of the strengths. you know without having
a kind of preconceived idea because obviously
I was working with a student and then this student
is coming to work with me as a member of professional
services or like Mike said he didn't really know
what professional services was and I've got all
of these preconceived ideas about what a student
can do or has done in in their you know in their
degree when actually really I know nothing you
know and we are each bringing ourselves and our
and our own lived experience into this so um
so Through working together, we did work out
what each other's strengths were and there were
points at which Mike had a lot more, say, stamina
for looking through data, for example, but also
was quite time poor at times because he was studying.
So we had different paces of work. So I think
that was also something to kind of get used to.
But in terms of would I do anything differently?
Well, obviously I would now because I've done
that kind of research now. I plan it a lot better,
I think, because now I've got the experience.
But perhaps I would be more willing to reach
out in advance to people that had more experience.
But I think for me... You don't know what you
don't know, really. And I like to just start
doing something and feel like I'm immersed in
it before the next question arises, you know.
So it's not necessarily the ideal way of doing
it. But that can also be quite tricky when you're
trying to work with another person. You're trying
to lead them, but you're also kind of learning
as you go. And I don't know whether you found
that frustrating at all. No, not at all. I mean,
Jenny, she raises a really valuable point, particularly
if you're working with... with students so you
know i'm a mature student as well so i i guess
i you know it's fair for me to say that like
i bring a bit more life experience than when
i saw i guess i you know was more willing to
like you know i as you get older you develop
better communication skills and emotional regulation
when things get very stressful and that's just
something that that comes with age and i think
yeah i think jenny raised a really good point
that you know in particular like you know going
through um Going through medical school and the
intense exams of that, she's absolutely fair
to point out that at different points I had less
to give. And I think that is something that my
experience as a student in that situation, often
it felt like that it was a disappointment for
you and it was a disappointment for me. And I
wish that I was able to give more, especially
to a project that is so important. No, I can't
say that I ever felt frustrated with you. Oh,
good. You were great. That's good. I don't know
about you, Hayley, but it almost feels like a
shame to bring the episode to a close. Yeah,
yeah. It'd be nice to listen to it. Well, I guess
all that remains is to thank everyone for participating.
Do read the article. Sign up to the Incubator
launch event. And thanks once again. and see
you all next time thank you