WEBVTT 00:00:08.460 --> 00:00:11.179 Welcome to LITE Bites, an occasional podcast 00:00:11.179 --> 00:00:13.279 from Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence 00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:16.280 at the University of Leeds. Episodes will be 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:18.539 hosted by members of the Light team. And we'll 00:00:18.539 --> 00:00:20.379 be showcasing the scholarship of teaching and 00:00:20.379 --> 00:00:30.019 learning from across the university. Hello, you're 00:00:30.019 --> 00:00:32.820 listening to LITE Bites. I'm Robert Averies. 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:35.359 And I'm Hayley Bullard. And we're joined today 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:38.670 by Jenny Brady and Mike Kerr. to talk about their 00:00:38.670 --> 00:00:40.869 LITE research, listening to disabled students 00:00:40.869 --> 00:00:43.469 for an inclusive curriculum. Great to see you 00:00:43.469 --> 00:00:46.630 both. How are you both today? Good, thank you. 00:00:46.990 --> 00:00:48.810 Yeah, really good, thank you. Thanks for having 00:00:48.810 --> 00:00:51.049 me. Thanks for coming. Perhaps then we could 00:00:51.049 --> 00:00:53.810 start with some introductions and you could tell 00:00:53.810 --> 00:00:55.490 listeners what you do at the University of Leeds. 00:00:56.399 --> 00:00:58.939 So I'm Jenny Brady and I'm the Inclusive Learning 00:00:58.939 --> 00:01:02.659 and Teaching Manager. I'm based in educational 00:01:02.659 --> 00:01:04.780 engagement within the Student Success Centre. 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:08.840 I've actually got two roles. I'm also the light 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:12.500 incubator lead for inclusive education and belonging. 00:01:13.060 --> 00:01:16.180 So really trying to kind of draw together and 00:01:16.180 --> 00:01:19.579 create a community of practice around research 00:01:19.579 --> 00:01:25.540 in that area. And within my inclusive... learning 00:01:25.540 --> 00:01:28.659 and teaching manager role and trying to embed 00:01:28.659 --> 00:01:32.739 a culture of inclusive teaching through the curriculum. 00:01:33.739 --> 00:01:38.219 Yeah, so I'm Mike Kerr. I'm a resident doctor 00:01:38.219 --> 00:01:41.620 now in the NHS but previously when I was working 00:01:41.620 --> 00:01:45.299 on this project I was a medical student here 00:01:45.299 --> 00:01:51.420 at Leeds. I also was employed as a research assistant 00:01:51.420 --> 00:01:55.980 at Light and I formed a wonderful relationship 00:01:55.980 --> 00:01:58.819 now with Jenny over the years but I was particularly 00:01:58.819 --> 00:02:03.140 invested in this project because of my own lived 00:02:03.140 --> 00:02:05.319 experiences and intersectionality with disabilities 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.639 and other things I'm quite passionate about helping 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:12.780 students with some of those lived experiences. 00:02:13.020 --> 00:02:16.509 Fantastic. Perhaps you could give listeners a 00:02:16.509 --> 00:02:18.990 sense of what motivated you both to get into 00:02:18.990 --> 00:02:22.629 this research to begin with. So a number of years 00:02:22.629 --> 00:02:27.210 ago, I worked in disability services. Well, I 00:02:27.210 --> 00:02:29.669 worked in disability services as a disability 00:02:29.669 --> 00:02:33.819 practitioner for about 14 years. That gave me 00:02:33.819 --> 00:02:37.479 the passion really to try to change the culture 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:40.159 around inclusive teaching because I was making 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:42.379 the same recommendations for reasonable adjustments 00:02:42.379 --> 00:02:44.520 again and again and again but nothing was really 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:47.819 happening to change that in terms of how teaching 00:02:47.819 --> 00:02:52.419 was designed and delivered. So I got the opportunity 00:02:52.419 --> 00:02:55.659 in 2019 to actually join the core team of Light 00:02:55.659 --> 00:03:00.400 to carry out a research project across the whole 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:03.000 institution to understand the extent to which 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:08.879 we were delivering or not an inclusive experience 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:13.360 for our students. And that was related to the 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:15.539 university's baseline standards for inclusive 00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:17.199 learning and teaching, which have been agreed 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:20.419 in 2018. Now, one of the recommendations from 00:03:20.419 --> 00:03:22.620 that research was that we really needed to understand 00:03:22.620 --> 00:03:26.219 the experiences of disabled students more because 00:03:26.219 --> 00:03:28.659 there were so many recommendations for ways in 00:03:28.659 --> 00:03:31.000 which we were not yet really kind of being inclusive 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:35.439 enough. It was a case to say, where do we actually 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.639 start and what would disabled students want us 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:41.319 to prioritise? And that's where I got the idea 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:45.699 for this research project to involve Mike in 00:03:45.699 --> 00:03:51.550 this research. Yeah, as I mentioned previously, 00:03:51.990 --> 00:03:57.330 for me, I learned through different experiences 00:03:57.330 --> 00:04:00.370 on different projects with light that I really 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:03.889 enjoyed research. So I was equipped with some 00:04:03.889 --> 00:04:08.180 skills already. Being a doctor anyway, it's all 00:04:08.180 --> 00:04:12.840 about lifelong research and engaging with research 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:15.759 and different types of research methodologies. 00:04:16.100 --> 00:04:20.519 For me, there was a personal draw towards this 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:24.600 project, as I say, because of like different 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:27.040 intersectionalities of students and different 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.500 lived experiences. So in particular, the most 00:04:30.500 --> 00:04:35.060 relevant for this for me. I have disabilities, 00:04:35.259 --> 00:04:40.180 so I have connective tissue disease for people 00:04:40.180 --> 00:04:42.600 who are listening to that. And they don't know 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:43.920 what that is. So that's an autoimmune disease 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:47.220 that affects me systemically. So like tiredness, 00:04:47.220 --> 00:04:51.319 fatigue, mobility issues, joint pain, joint swelling, 00:04:51.459 --> 00:04:54.680 all those types of things. And then in addition 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:59.420 to that, I also have complex PTSD. There was 00:04:59.420 --> 00:05:01.980 my own experiences and then I've got lots of 00:05:01.980 --> 00:05:03.660 friends that have experience with disabilities 00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:06.680 too. So I was just really drawn to this project 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:10.100 and I was quite eager and keen to learn from 00:05:10.100 --> 00:05:13.839 Jenny and all of her experience. One of the reasons 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:17.420 why we really wanted to bring Mike into this 00:05:17.420 --> 00:05:21.279 project was because we felt that actually... 00:05:22.620 --> 00:05:25.660 Having Mike interviewing and speaking with other 00:05:25.660 --> 00:05:29.439 disabled students would really help to bring 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.100 out the best in those students because they could 00:05:32.100 --> 00:05:34.899 relate to a fellow student who also understood 00:05:34.899 --> 00:05:38.240 the experience of being disabled. So that was 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:40.800 really kind of key to the research design here. 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:44.100 Fantastic. And a lovely segue into the next question, 00:05:44.180 --> 00:05:47.680 which I'll hand over to Hayley for. um yeah so 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.939 could you give listeners an overview of the research 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:54.100 design so how it went you went about it did it 00:05:54.100 --> 00:05:57.519 all go to plan um or did plans change over time 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.600 i'm not necessarily sure anybody can say that 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.759 research goes um so i think if you ask anybody 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:06.519 that that question they would say it did not 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:08.519 go to plan but i think that's normal that's an 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:13.000 um uh like the word is uh iterative isn't it 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:16.470 it's a very iterative process and um You learn 00:06:16.470 --> 00:06:19.230 as you go, you go on with an idea and that changes. 00:06:19.889 --> 00:06:22.209 The research design for this, as Jenny says, 00:06:22.329 --> 00:06:26.790 is so that we did 30 minute, roughly 30 minute 00:06:26.790 --> 00:06:30.589 interviews with 10 students and they were conducted 00:06:30.589 --> 00:06:33.269 by me and they were semi -structured interviews. 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:36.939 I kind of went in there thinking about the types 00:06:36.939 --> 00:06:38.259 of questions that we wanted to ask them, but 00:06:38.259 --> 00:06:41.120 then we followed on and were very much led by 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:43.639 the students to explore those, the kind of feelings 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.660 and the questions that they brought. And then 00:06:46.660 --> 00:06:50.279 we took that data and used Bron and Clark's thematic 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:56.000 analysis. We went over it once and we had hundreds 00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:00.829 and hundreds of calls for a very long time. And 00:07:00.829 --> 00:07:04.290 then we sought some advice from another colleague 00:07:04.290 --> 00:07:08.709 to get some feedback on the stuff that we'd done. 00:07:08.769 --> 00:07:10.430 And then we realised that actually the most appropriate 00:07:10.430 --> 00:07:13.730 thing to do was to, when we reviewed those courses, 00:07:13.730 --> 00:07:16.910 was to make them more person -centred. So I statements, 00:07:17.050 --> 00:07:19.170 me statements, to really have that punch to really 00:07:19.170 --> 00:07:21.329 draw on what the lived experiences of what students 00:07:21.329 --> 00:07:24.410 were. And then we took those, assembled them 00:07:24.410 --> 00:07:28.910 into themes and we were able to identify recommendations. 00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:32.360 from that I think the the only thing that I would 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:35.199 say is that as Jenny was saying when she designed 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:37.639 this project it was like oh like what do we do 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:40.259 now like what do we do next I think we realized 00:07:40.259 --> 00:07:45.740 as we were doing the codes that actually ended 00:07:45.740 --> 00:07:48.319 up turning into like a system -wide review didn't 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:51.220 it it's like it became it ended up becoming a 00:07:51.220 --> 00:07:53.339 massive project that was my experience a bit 00:07:53.339 --> 00:07:55.920 from kind of what I'm not sure what your thoughts 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:59.100 are now it started off probably probably in your 00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:00.939 head a bit smaller than what it really turned 00:08:00.939 --> 00:08:03.819 out didn't it yeah yeah yeah I didn't anticipate 00:08:03.819 --> 00:08:07.480 that we would be spending days and days together 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:12.439 poring over this excel spreadsheet and yeah what's 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:16.540 that supposed to mean but we were just adding 00:08:16.540 --> 00:08:19.480 things into this into this spreadsheet but it 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:21.839 was intense it was really intense because we 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:23.920 were feeling everything that we were reading 00:08:24.939 --> 00:08:27.959 weren't we and and and and kind of then then 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:30.660 categorizing it but yeah it was it it was a really 00:08:30.660 --> 00:08:33.059 intense few days i think that's a really important 00:08:33.059 --> 00:08:34.919 point as well because like you know that i think 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:39.039 um you know it's particularly when you do uh 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:44.220 research on um topics like this that you know 00:08:44.220 --> 00:08:47.000 that you're aware can be quite emotive or sensitive 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:49.299 there were just days weren't there where we just 00:08:49.299 --> 00:08:51.860 like paused and we literally like I mean, I don't 00:08:51.860 --> 00:08:53.919 mind saying I was just crying, like just reading 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:56.299 the quotes. And actually, I think when you go 00:08:56.299 --> 00:09:00.039 into research, you have an idea of how you're 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:02.080 going to do it and what the process will look 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:06.539 like. But when you do research topics like this, 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:09.820 they're very emotionally intensive, aren't they? 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:13.100 Yeah. Yeah. There were tears. And actually, you 00:09:13.100 --> 00:09:16.259 know, drawing on my own experience of being a 00:09:16.259 --> 00:09:19.110 disability practitioner. I thought that I'd had 00:09:19.110 --> 00:09:23.549 every conversation that I needed to have to understand 00:09:23.549 --> 00:09:25.750 the experiences of disabled students. I thought 00:09:25.750 --> 00:09:27.929 disabled students were opening up to me in that 00:09:27.929 --> 00:09:31.230 capacity. But no, there was an extra layer that 00:09:31.230 --> 00:09:33.490 would have never been revealed to me had it not 00:09:33.490 --> 00:09:35.210 been for this research. So I'm really, really 00:09:35.210 --> 00:09:38.509 grateful for having learned the value of research 00:09:38.509 --> 00:09:42.570 through this process. Again, that's another nice 00:09:42.570 --> 00:09:46.139 segue into the next question, really. So what 00:09:46.139 --> 00:09:48.360 did you learn and what were the main findings 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:53.240 of your research? I think for me, when I was 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:55.519 in that disability practitioner role, it used 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:59.399 to frustrate me that students weren't... going 00:09:59.399 --> 00:10:03.120 to their um to their module leaders or you know 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.179 or to their teaching staff to let them know that 00:10:06.179 --> 00:10:08.179 particular adjustments that they had expected 00:10:08.179 --> 00:10:10.860 to be in place actually weren't in place they 00:10:10.860 --> 00:10:12.679 weren't doing that but they were coming to me 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:14.740 instead and i was getting frustrated think well 00:10:14.740 --> 00:10:16.639 why do i always have to be the middle person 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:19.759 like this is not not efficient but through this 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:22.379 research i really realize that there are micro 00:10:22.379 --> 00:10:24.720 decisions that our disabled students are making 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:31.190 every day about whether or not that request will 00:10:31.190 --> 00:10:36.629 be met positively. And I don't mean that they 00:10:36.629 --> 00:10:40.110 fear that staff won't put the adjustment in place, 00:10:40.129 --> 00:10:44.879 but I think sometimes if there's an... perhaps 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:48.080 an overreaction of sympathy then that is actually 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.519 unwanted from the student's perspective because 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:52.580 they don't want to make a fuss they don't want 00:10:52.580 --> 00:10:55.019 to be a burden they don't want to tell somebody 00:10:55.019 --> 00:10:56.600 something that they perhaps should have already 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:58.740 known but perhaps they were too busy to you know 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:01.340 look at the paperwork or or whatever there so 00:11:01.340 --> 00:11:03.899 so sometimes what came through was that students 00:11:03.899 --> 00:11:08.139 were holding themselves back from actually asking 00:11:08.139 --> 00:11:12.549 for the thing that they needed just to kind of 00:11:12.549 --> 00:11:19.210 save their dignity and to kind of smooth the 00:11:19.210 --> 00:11:23.629 path. So by helping someone else, they were actually 00:11:23.629 --> 00:11:26.769 hurting themselves. So all of these micro decisions. 00:11:26.909 --> 00:11:30.370 And then also the main thing, another thing was 00:11:30.370 --> 00:11:39.500 that they were risking... the extra effort and 00:11:39.500 --> 00:11:43.159 the energy that goes into kind of just the admin 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:45.139 around being a disabled student and getting your 00:11:45.139 --> 00:11:49.240 support set up actually can put a student's health 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:52.200 further at risk or mental health or physical 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.080 health. So they were two of the things. What 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:57.620 else was there for you, Mike? Yeah, I mean, I 00:11:57.620 --> 00:12:02.120 think that, as I say, it ended up becoming like 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:05.620 where we started. it ended up becoming almost 00:12:05.620 --> 00:12:10.360 like an institutional review. That's kind of 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:15.299 where it ended up. And we split it down with 00:12:15.299 --> 00:12:19.360 the themes on three different levels. So it was 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:23.340 person -centred was theme one, classroom -type 00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:26.600 level, so more of a group -type setting. And 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:29.460 then the third theme was all about as an institution. 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.340 So you can see kind of how we went from person, 00:12:32.379 --> 00:12:36.320 group, institution. The thing that really came 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:41.639 through in theme one was the repetitive disclosure 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:45.539 from students because the system was experienced 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:49.259 as quite inefficient by students overall. That 00:12:49.259 --> 00:12:51.580 was just incredibly jarring for them. And as 00:12:51.580 --> 00:12:55.740 Jenny says, that they would just, they would 00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:58.240 resent having to repeatedly disclose to the point 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:03.000 where they wouldn't because discussing. uh your 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.940 own disability everybody has different experiences 00:13:05.940 --> 00:13:09.039 um at least in mind that disclosing it that they're 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:11.799 always there's that um feeling of perhaps shame 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:15.139 am i going to be judged by by by the recipient 00:13:15.139 --> 00:13:19.019 of this conversation and i think a lot of students 00:13:19.019 --> 00:13:22.200 feel that having disclosed it once which you 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.580 know can bring all those feelings of of shame 00:13:24.580 --> 00:13:28.480 and uh that that come up that to have to repeatedly 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:32.350 do that um actually that is incredibly jarring 00:13:32.350 --> 00:13:37.610 for somebody to do that and then uh on a classroom 00:13:37.610 --> 00:13:40.690 type level um the the types of things that that 00:13:40.690 --> 00:13:46.590 came up were about um the uh teaching wasn't 00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:48.929 designed in a way that was fully fully inclusive 00:13:48.929 --> 00:13:53.210 for them and um one of the codes was like reasonable 00:13:53.210 --> 00:13:55.889 adjustments don't work for me i think that was 00:13:55.889 --> 00:13:59.440 one of the um sub themes and um just about the 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:01.419 different types of teaching and but that that 00:14:01.419 --> 00:14:04.759 that led on to uh quite lengthy discussions with 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:08.340 us because ultimately is it really possible to 00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:12.480 decide I'd like to to design teaching that truly 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:17.039 is inclusive for um everybody because I think 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.240 what we're saying is that we can be inclusive 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:20.940 but I guess not everybody will always be happy 00:14:20.940 --> 00:14:23.460 because ultimately what works for me might not 00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:26.700 work for you Hayley and I think what That was 00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:29.620 a long discussion between me and Jenny, like, 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:32.419 where's the happy medium so we can try and cater 00:14:32.419 --> 00:14:34.299 for everybody? But I think that can often be 00:14:34.299 --> 00:14:37.879 difficult to achieve. And then systemically, 00:14:37.940 --> 00:14:40.240 it was looking at all the different aspects of 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.120 a student. So looking at the way that systems 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:44.879 work in the University of Leeds, whether that 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:47.620 be reasonable adjustments or disclosing things. 00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:52.059 And actually. Some students came from one participation 00:14:52.059 --> 00:14:57.139 background. They were single parents, working 00:14:57.139 --> 00:14:59.799 class backgrounds, and they often found that 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:02.620 the struggles that they were having inside the 00:15:02.620 --> 00:15:07.320 university as a disabled student, that the other 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:12.899 intersectionalities of the student, they compounded 00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:15.500 those difficulties. So those are kind of the 00:15:15.500 --> 00:15:20.059 key things that I took away. There's some really 00:15:20.059 --> 00:15:24.720 great theme maps that we've done. um but i think 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.779 ultimately with the all the data that we had 00:15:28.779 --> 00:15:31.559 there was so much it's it's often difficult to 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:33.200 look at it and as i say it ended up becoming 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.379 like an institution uh review it's difficult 00:15:36.379 --> 00:15:38.580 to look at that and say okay where do we go now 00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:41.080 because almost it was like okay well this is 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:43.539 this and this and this and it's it's really difficult 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:46.480 to yeah systems can take a while to change yeah 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.340 i think one thing that i would dig into further 00:15:49.340 --> 00:15:55.399 um is that finding around um students who had 00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:58.600 physical disabilities were more likely to have 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.940 their needs met than if they had an invisible 00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:04.539 disability so let's say a specific learning difference 00:16:04.539 --> 00:16:09.580 or a mental health condition and I think one 00:16:09.580 --> 00:16:12.200 of our participants had both of those and so 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:14.279 was able to see that from from both perspectives 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:18.919 and I think you know there was there was certainly 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:23.299 a sense that students recognized that if teaching 00:16:23.299 --> 00:16:27.289 had been delivered or designed in a different 00:16:27.289 --> 00:16:30.169 way in a kind of more inclusive way to start 00:16:30.169 --> 00:16:32.330 with then it would benefit not just them but 00:16:32.330 --> 00:16:34.750 other students their fellow students and their 00:16:34.750 --> 00:16:37.809 peers and that that would have a huge impact 00:16:37.809 --> 00:16:41.090 on their sense of belonging because it was just 00:16:41.090 --> 00:16:43.389 that sense of kind of feeling different and knowing 00:16:43.389 --> 00:16:45.090 that you're different and knowing that your needs 00:16:45.090 --> 00:16:47.909 may not have been catered for or thought about 00:16:47.909 --> 00:16:51.269 when you enter this environment again and again 00:16:51.269 --> 00:16:54.919 and again quite difficult to listen to for sure 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.779 yeah and then in the um in in the classroom setting 00:16:58.779 --> 00:17:02.419 um feelings of belonging came up came up quite 00:17:02.419 --> 00:17:04.640 a lot i know that's an area that's had quite 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:07.819 a significant amount of research in in in recent 00:17:07.819 --> 00:17:10.940 years but yeah i mean it it makes sense if you 00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:13.420 feel other or different those feelings of not 00:17:13.420 --> 00:17:18.099 belonging can definitely be compounded and um 00:17:18.099 --> 00:17:20.740 the other thing to say is that see that there 00:17:20.740 --> 00:17:25.099 were um Students, I guess it's an obvious answer, 00:17:25.299 --> 00:17:30.819 but on that note, students described really quite 00:17:30.819 --> 00:17:34.440 strong positive feelings and good academic outcomes 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:38.240 when they felt more included and they felt that 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:40.180 they had a sense of belonging in the university. 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.759 So in settings like that, they discussed that 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.019 their academic outcomes or grades were better 00:17:45.019 --> 00:17:48.680 when they were made to feel more included. That's 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:50.200 a really important point because it's highlighting 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.009 that context specific. dynamic that's happening 00:17:53.009 --> 00:17:56.390 yeah yeah yeah um should point out to listeners 00:17:56.390 --> 00:17:58.809 at this stage that uh you can access this report 00:17:58.809 --> 00:18:00.789 online and we'll include a link to that in the 00:18:00.789 --> 00:18:03.809 show notes on that um before we get to the next 00:18:03.809 --> 00:18:05.950 section you were mentioning a minute ago about 00:18:05.950 --> 00:18:09.269 how the sample students that you recruited and 00:18:09.269 --> 00:18:11.890 you talk a bit about in the report how that can 00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:14.789 say some things but you'd like to you know that 00:18:14.789 --> 00:18:18.640 wider sample would provide more in depth insights 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.500 but you do talk about how there is a correlation 00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:25.440 between your findings and national data i wonder 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.599 if that's something you'd like to talk about 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:31.079 a bit more yeah absolutely so um Over the last 00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:35.319 few years, there's been a sector wide disabled 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:39.619 students insights survey. So it's the access 00:18:39.619 --> 00:18:41.920 and insights report. And there was one in 2023 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.759 and one in 2024. And there'll be another one. 00:18:44.859 --> 00:18:47.740 So the survey has been out this year. And actually, 00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:52.380 the 2023 and the 2024 report absolutely tie in 00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:55.779 with what we've found here. So it's almost, you 00:18:55.779 --> 00:18:59.670 know, it's great that we have. some data that 00:18:59.670 --> 00:19:05.789 relates to our own context and helps to kind 00:19:05.789 --> 00:19:09.670 of bring some colour and bring it to life about 00:19:09.670 --> 00:19:12.619 what our own... drive and priorities needs to 00:19:12.619 --> 00:19:16.519 be but this is a this is a sector -wide um picture 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:18.740 it's a sector -wide issue you know all of the 00:19:18.740 --> 00:19:20.859 stuff around kind of information sharing the 00:19:20.859 --> 00:19:23.319 bureaucracy around the disabled students allowances 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:26.599 the the culture around inclusive teaching and 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:29.140 inclusive assessment there's a lot of work that 00:19:29.140 --> 00:19:32.299 we need to do as a sector to to really kind of 00:19:32.299 --> 00:19:37.160 change practice and and move away from this knowledge 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:40.900 sitting with disability practitioners and services 00:19:40.900 --> 00:19:44.740 and actually if we really think about that social 00:19:44.740 --> 00:19:48.220 model of disability trying to get that awareness 00:19:48.220 --> 00:19:54.319 into actually not just our staff who teach and 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:59.119 our educators but to everyone who has any kind 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:01.759 of role within the institution needs to understand 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:04.700 the concept of disability and how they, within 00:20:04.700 --> 00:20:09.200 their roles, can affect that experience of disablement 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:15.799 for people that experience barriers. And on that, 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:19.319 what sorts of changes do you feel should be prioritised 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:21.460 going forward, whether that's at Leeds or, as 00:20:21.460 --> 00:20:24.319 you say, more widely? I think training around 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:28.960 disability is absolutely crucial. So, you know, 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:33.119 to help people to gain that mindset and even 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.119 understanding what the word disability actually 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:40.759 means, because, you know, people shy away from 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:44.059 it. But actually, it's a helpful word when we 00:20:44.059 --> 00:20:47.740 understand that it really is about the context 00:20:47.740 --> 00:20:50.839 and the person's experience within that context. 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.279 So I think that that's one key thing. And then, 00:20:56.339 --> 00:20:59.859 you know, the kind of systems of information 00:20:59.859 --> 00:21:02.980 sharing are absolutely broken and have been broken 00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:05.359 for a long time. But that needs to be, you know. 00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:09.339 institutionally we need investment in a system 00:21:09.339 --> 00:21:11.819 that actually works whereby our educators can 00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:13.700 get access to the information that they need 00:21:13.700 --> 00:21:16.940 because actually if we if we're able to effectively 00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:21.359 scale up on our inclusive practice we would reduce 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.539 the requirement for so many reasonable adjustments 00:21:25.539 --> 00:21:31.009 and then we would be able to prioritize the adjustments 00:21:31.009 --> 00:21:33.849 that are needed for students with more complex 00:21:33.849 --> 00:21:37.730 disabilities or sensory impairments. So there 00:21:37.730 --> 00:21:41.150 are a few shifts that are needed to actually, 00:21:41.470 --> 00:21:44.829 you know, help everybody to get the information 00:21:44.829 --> 00:21:49.250 that they need and to get the right environments 00:21:49.250 --> 00:21:51.930 in place for people just to thrive and feel that 00:21:51.930 --> 00:21:55.289 they belong. And you talk about in the report 00:21:55.289 --> 00:21:57.990 about how there's training. ought to be rooted 00:21:57.990 --> 00:22:00.589 in the social model of disability yeah focused 00:22:00.589 --> 00:22:02.829 on hidden disabilities and intersectionality 00:22:02.829 --> 00:22:05.390 yeah for sure i mean that's what i was just about 00:22:05.390 --> 00:22:08.910 to um pick up on yeah so it's about looking um 00:22:08.910 --> 00:22:13.309 looking at disabled students holistically and 00:22:13.309 --> 00:22:16.069 more as a whole person rather than exclusively 00:22:16.069 --> 00:22:20.190 like all of the medical aspects as it were of 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:24.220 what what one particular disability might mean 00:22:24.220 --> 00:22:26.299 it's looking at like how does this impact this 00:22:26.299 --> 00:22:29.299 person as a human being like what are the other 00:22:29.299 --> 00:22:31.440 factors of this person's life as well that that 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:35.599 may make their disability more complex um and 00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:40.779 um i think as well just thinking about um it's 00:22:40.779 --> 00:22:43.299 it's worth just uh it's worth just mentioning 00:22:43.299 --> 00:22:47.700 that obviously the data was uh incredibly rich 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:51.359 um in this and there was a There was a lot to 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.700 sift through, and as Jenny says, these were backed 00:22:54.700 --> 00:23:00.160 up by the other work that's been going on, but 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.619 I think more still perhaps needs to be done, 00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:08.660 as always, in research. This was with ten students, 00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:12.680 which out of a student sample potentially of 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:15.619 thousands, you can very much argue that perhaps 00:23:15.619 --> 00:23:18.529 might not be entirely representative. The other 00:23:18.529 --> 00:23:20.630 aspect, which I guess might be like a limitation 00:23:20.630 --> 00:23:23.470 of this study, is the fact that like when you 00:23:23.470 --> 00:23:25.410 think about response bias, so often it's like, 00:23:25.470 --> 00:23:28.869 you know, if you go to the supermarket, for example, 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:32.170 and it doesn't your experience wasn't great, 00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:34.730 you're more likely to then contact somebody and 00:23:34.730 --> 00:23:36.950 say, OK, this is a problem. So when we when we 00:23:36.950 --> 00:23:40.940 when this was advertised to students. essentially 00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:42.799 what I'm saying with the response bias is that 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:45.380 there's a chance that people who have very strong 00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:47.299 feelings, whether they be positive or negative, 00:23:47.539 --> 00:23:51.400 may be more likely to have engaged with this 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:54.980 research. That's the thing. But I think in terms 00:23:54.980 --> 00:23:57.599 of the recommendations, I think the thing that 00:23:57.599 --> 00:23:59.039 stood out most to me was thinking about just 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:03.640 designing systems that are compassionate towards... 00:24:04.700 --> 00:24:07.339 I think that's really, really, really important 00:24:07.339 --> 00:24:09.240 because the thing that repeatedly came through 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:11.420 was about the reasonable adjustment system and 00:24:11.420 --> 00:24:13.500 the way that it makes students feel having to 00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:17.180 repeatedly disclose those things. So thinking 00:24:17.180 --> 00:24:23.380 about how can we design those systems, some changes 00:24:23.380 --> 00:24:26.500 moving forward that I would like to see off the 00:24:26.500 --> 00:24:29.000 back of this would be thinking about how can 00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:31.380 we make that more compassionate with students 00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:34.329 because ultimately that's who this is for. all 00:24:34.329 --> 00:24:37.609 systems should be designed with the student in 00:24:37.609 --> 00:24:40.470 mind and what their experience will be using 00:24:40.470 --> 00:24:43.710 that system. And Jenny's already picked upon 00:24:43.710 --> 00:24:46.049 teaching. And then I guess finally, as I said, 00:24:46.049 --> 00:24:50.210 with the intersectionality aspect, it's about 00:24:50.210 --> 00:24:53.130 really just looking at this person rather than 00:24:53.130 --> 00:24:56.400 just this is the... this is the new system that 00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:58.539 we're going to implement looking looking at how 00:24:58.539 --> 00:25:00.299 that's going to integrate in the university and 00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:02.339 just looking at that person as a whole human 00:25:02.339 --> 00:25:03.779 being and thinking about what the rest of their 00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:06.680 student experience would be like maybe this is 00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:08.519 partly the kind of stuff i like reading about 00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:11.240 as well but and being involved with but this 00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.099 work seems to be a part of an important part 00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:16.859 of wider discussions around compassionate approaches 00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:19.720 to higher education as you were saying mike There 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:22.700 are lots of kind of emerging concepts, ways of 00:25:22.700 --> 00:25:24.160 looking at higher education, whether that's in 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:26.660 teaching, whether it's in wider design of structures 00:25:26.660 --> 00:25:29.759 in higher education. Our student education conference 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:31.960 keynote spoke about this in terms of the ecological 00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:35.740 university. I think that's a really interesting, 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:37.779 this is a really interesting example of how we 00:25:37.779 --> 00:25:40.579 can look, as you say, Mike, holistically at students 00:25:40.579 --> 00:25:43.480 as human beings and how we can consider all different 00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:45.500 facets of what it means to be involved in higher 00:25:45.500 --> 00:25:48.420 education and to learn and to be learning alongside 00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:51.660 other people. And I'd be really excited to see 00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:53.779 where this goes going forwards. I guess that 00:25:53.779 --> 00:25:57.420 leads on to outputs you've produced. I mean, 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.259 just this conversation and hearing your reflections 00:26:00.259 --> 00:26:03.740 is an amazing thing to be a part of. And also 00:26:03.740 --> 00:26:05.779 I've mentioned the article that people can engage 00:26:05.779 --> 00:26:07.460 with if they want a summary of the findings and 00:26:07.460 --> 00:26:10.839 the methodology and I guess practical guidance 00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:13.819 on how it might inform their people's work, whether 00:26:13.819 --> 00:26:16.920 that's again in teaching or wider student education 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:20.440 practice. My plea would really be to engage with 00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:23.180 all of the resources that we have around inclusive 00:26:23.180 --> 00:26:28.279 learning and teaching. So there's a SharePoint 00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:31.400 site dedicated to inclusivity and accessibility, 00:26:31.539 --> 00:26:35.259 and it covers everything from kind of digital 00:26:35.259 --> 00:26:40.759 accessibility to inclusive assessment to resources 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:45.049 around belonging and hidden curriculum. There 00:26:45.049 --> 00:26:47.230 are a lot of small tweaks that people can make 00:26:47.230 --> 00:26:50.329 to really improve the experiences of disabled 00:26:50.329 --> 00:26:54.009 students. And what I'm trying to do within my 00:26:54.009 --> 00:26:57.829 work is trying to get some kind of consistency, 00:26:57.890 --> 00:27:03.480 really, because... that will then enable our 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.299 disability services to start scaling back on 00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:10.160 making the recommendations for reasonable adjustments, 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:12.500 which should actually just be there as standard. 00:27:12.579 --> 00:27:15.339 But they can't scale back on those recommendations 00:27:15.339 --> 00:27:18.319 until they know that there is a level of quality, 00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:21.000 because otherwise that's just not fair on students 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.019 to say, oh, yeah, well, we think that it should 00:27:23.019 --> 00:27:27.299 be, you know, inclusive when you go onto this 00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:29.220 module or this programme. But if we don't actually 00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:33.160 know that, then... that feels a little bit negligent, 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:35.539 really. So we've got to get to a point where 00:27:35.539 --> 00:27:38.259 we can understand the quality of our inclusive 00:27:38.259 --> 00:27:43.500 provision. Yeah, we've done some amazing stuff 00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:47.480 with this already. As you say, like this podcast, 00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:50.730 it's been summarised in the... article that is 00:27:50.730 --> 00:27:54.369 online um we've presented a few conferences including 00:27:54.369 --> 00:27:57.569 an international one we went to utrecht to isotl 00:27:57.569 --> 00:28:00.990 that was an amazing experience um yeah that that 00:28:00.990 --> 00:28:03.990 was wonderful to be able to present this work 00:28:03.990 --> 00:28:08.210 in such a huge, like at such a huge conference. 00:28:08.490 --> 00:28:11.789 Like that was incredible. So we've done some 00:28:11.789 --> 00:28:13.750 really exciting dissemination with this already. 00:28:13.869 --> 00:28:16.329 And then this is still ongoing with the online 00:28:16.329 --> 00:28:19.609 stuff. And then for me, so I'm in the process 00:28:19.609 --> 00:28:22.089 with Jenny of just getting this all written up 00:28:22.089 --> 00:28:27.150 to get it put in a out for publication next. 00:28:27.450 --> 00:28:30.750 Yeah. So that'll be the next steps that'll be 00:28:30.750 --> 00:28:32.920 happening over the next. the next few months 00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:35.240 and then I think for me I was just reflecting 00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:39.839 as Jenny was speaking as well I think you know 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:43.000 I've at least from my experience it's better 00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:45.579 I felt I've learned so much from you over the 00:28:45.579 --> 00:28:48.480 last few years and yeah it was it was a joy to 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:50.799 work with you on this it was it was really lovely 00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.099 and you taught me so much and you know coming 00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:55.119 from I think looking at research from a very 00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:57.500 that very typical like medical way like this 00:28:57.500 --> 00:29:00.279 is how we're going to do this and very but uh 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.619 listening to and learning from from from jenny's 00:29:03.619 --> 00:29:06.559 experiences uh from disability and professional 00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:09.440 services like i've learned so much and i think 00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:13.480 um you know there are some findings in here that 00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:17.759 can feel um like be quite sad to read but i think 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.480 you know like you've um consistently said that 00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:23.519 you know if you ask anybody that goes into higher 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.359 education like they really um They really care 00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:29.579 about the students and, you know, people who 00:29:29.579 --> 00:29:32.980 work in professional services. They really do 00:29:32.980 --> 00:29:35.240 care about getting this right. And I think the 00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:38.079 point that we're trying to make is that it's 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:40.720 finding the system that works for students and 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:44.480 a system that works for staff and to be able 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.079 to to deliver that. And coming to university, 00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.920 you know, it's a privilege. You know, it's such 00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:54.700 a wonderful experience. And I think. At least 00:29:54.700 --> 00:29:58.359 from my experience when I was going through medical 00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:01.519 school, because it's quite a long time. University, 00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:04.420 you know, it's a place where we should value 00:30:04.420 --> 00:30:07.240 and celebrate everybody and all the intersectionality 00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:10.640 and all the different aspects that that person 00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.220 brings. And it's about, I think the university 00:30:13.220 --> 00:30:19.119 needs to think about how can we really celebrate 00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.980 our... our students and and and prepare them 00:30:23.980 --> 00:30:25.960 because ultimately the the you know for most 00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:28.700 people the whole point of getting a degree you 00:30:28.700 --> 00:30:30.700 know is you're going to go on to professional 00:30:30.700 --> 00:30:35.119 life of some sort so preparing disabled students 00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:39.759 um and and really um universities embodying values 00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:43.180 of of compassion that then students you know 00:30:43.180 --> 00:30:45.579 can then take as professionals out into the working 00:30:45.579 --> 00:30:50.519 world Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Kind of empowering 00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:53.539 all students to kind of bring their full selves 00:30:53.539 --> 00:30:57.319 both into their courses and outwards into their, 00:30:57.420 --> 00:31:00.700 you know, into life beyond university. So, yeah. 00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:03.000 And I'll just echo what Mike said about, you 00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:05.420 know, enjoying the process of working together. 00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:08.779 I've learned a lot and I'm really grateful for 00:31:08.779 --> 00:31:11.059 having had the opportunity. Really grateful. 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:14.450 And also, you know. This is just a kind of shout 00:31:14.450 --> 00:31:17.970 out to anyone who is kind of technical or professional 00:31:17.970 --> 00:31:21.250 services, who doesn't have any kind of experience 00:31:21.250 --> 00:31:25.690 in carrying out research or thinks that this 00:31:25.690 --> 00:31:28.369 is perhaps not for them. I think if you have 00:31:28.369 --> 00:31:31.029 a passion and an interest in something, it absolutely 00:31:31.029 --> 00:31:34.210 is. For you, there are so many people that can 00:31:34.210 --> 00:31:37.329 help you and steer you. And like Mike was saying 00:31:37.329 --> 00:31:40.009 earlier, you know, we started taking an approach 00:31:40.009 --> 00:31:42.650 and then we thought, OK, who can we check in 00:31:42.650 --> 00:31:45.289 with about this? And so we asked somebody else 00:31:45.289 --> 00:31:47.549 who had a lot more experience and they gave us 00:31:47.549 --> 00:31:50.029 a steer. And, you know, it was brilliant. We're 00:31:50.029 --> 00:31:51.809 here as a community. You know, we need to be 00:31:51.809 --> 00:31:54.289 here to help each other. So don't be afraid if 00:31:54.289 --> 00:31:56.130 you have a passion or an interest in something. 00:31:56.190 --> 00:31:58.910 And particularly if, like me, you've been working 00:31:58.910 --> 00:32:02.980 in an area for a long time. and you think that 00:32:02.980 --> 00:32:05.420 you know everything that there is to know and 00:32:05.420 --> 00:32:07.319 you actually don't because you haven't looked 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:10.640 at it from other angles. I think this relates 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:12.460 to what you were saying, Mike, about seeing ourselves 00:32:12.460 --> 00:32:16.180 holistically. Yeah, I mean, I think pragmatically 00:32:16.180 --> 00:32:18.859 it's very difficult to make any system in any 00:32:18.859 --> 00:32:23.720 context that is perfect. Perfect is an unreasonable 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:27.700 expectation and that's in any sector, any context. 00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:31.289 However, you know... In terms of the outputs 00:32:31.289 --> 00:32:34.549 that you've come back to, when we're looking 00:32:34.549 --> 00:32:38.230 at university, all students should feel that 00:32:38.230 --> 00:32:43.049 they feel included and that they belong and that 00:32:43.049 --> 00:32:45.750 the university is a safe space for them. And 00:32:45.750 --> 00:32:48.450 that should be at the heart of any changes that 00:32:48.450 --> 00:32:51.789 come into a university system. I think that's 00:32:51.789 --> 00:32:57.269 kind of where I am. Great. So what next for you 00:32:57.269 --> 00:33:02.259 on the podcast? So I am a full -time resident 00:33:02.259 --> 00:33:07.099 doctor now in the NHS. My life is pretty busy, 00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:11.880 but I'm engaged in other research too. For me, 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.900 next steps, as I say, will be to get this published. 00:33:15.099 --> 00:33:19.980 I think it's really important. So much blood, 00:33:20.059 --> 00:33:22.180 sweat and tears went into this, didn't it? It 00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:26.660 would be a real shame and a travesty, to be honest, 00:33:26.740 --> 00:33:30.019 to not use that rich data and get it out into 00:33:30.019 --> 00:33:33.839 a publication. And the response that we've had 00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:35.420 already from conferences and things like that 00:33:35.420 --> 00:33:38.599 has been really positive. So next steps in terms 00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:40.720 of for me in the immediate future to get this 00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:43.940 published over the over the coming months. Sadly, 00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:45.880 now, as obviously as I've left the University 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:49.920 of Leeds, I will no longer be working with with 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:52.819 Jenny. But I've I've been very lucky to have 00:33:52.819 --> 00:33:56.039 formed a really great relationship with Jenny. 00:33:56.140 --> 00:33:59.660 So, yeah, I'm really excited to see what comes 00:33:59.660 --> 00:34:03.319 for you next. Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, I mean, 00:34:03.339 --> 00:34:05.759 for me, I'm just continuing on my mission to 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.760 make the university as inclusive as possible. 00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:12.940 And and I think what I really like about this 00:34:12.940 --> 00:34:16.239 is I always I always thought, well, I remember 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:20.960 when we were in the depths of analysing the quotes 00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:24.000 and thinking this is really, really hard. But 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:27.119 I thought. We are creating a really shiny diamond 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:29.460 from this. Like we're polishing it and polishing 00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:32.139 it and we're really, really, you know, firming 00:34:32.139 --> 00:34:34.940 something up. And I think, you know, what I'd 00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:38.440 really like to come from this is just a piece 00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:42.400 of work that really helps to shift people's emotional 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.619 understanding of the experience of disability. 00:34:45.739 --> 00:34:48.400 So I think however we take that forward, I think 00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:51.840 that has to be at the core of it. Jenny, are 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.579 you in a position to share details of the Inclusive 00:34:54.579 --> 00:34:57.619 Education and Belonging Incubator event in September? 00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:01.719 Yes, yes, yes. So I'm in the stages of planning 00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:06.280 an event which really is around kind of... building 00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:12.559 our own community. So we've already on our incubator 00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:15.739 channel, we already have around 90 members. So 00:35:15.739 --> 00:35:19.400 these are people that are currently active or 00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:24.840 thinking about carrying out research in the area 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:28.699 of inclusive education and belonging. We're also 00:35:28.699 --> 00:35:32.679 constantly calling out for new members to join 00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:35.579 us. What we're going to do with that event, which 00:35:35.579 --> 00:35:39.059 we've scheduled in for the 24th of September, 00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:43.119 we're going to have an opportunity for people 00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:46.960 to meet with each other along particular themes 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:49.699 that they've already indicated that they're interested 00:35:49.699 --> 00:35:53.570 in. start establishing those those relationships 00:35:53.570 --> 00:35:57.489 and then we're going to hear from some of our 00:35:57.489 --> 00:36:02.829 current light fellows around their their projects 00:36:02.829 --> 00:36:05.389 and how they kind of collaborate together and 00:36:05.389 --> 00:36:09.449 how that works and Something about the process 00:36:09.449 --> 00:36:12.409 of applying for fellowships there. We're going 00:36:12.409 --> 00:36:14.690 to hear from our strategic leads around how they 00:36:14.690 --> 00:36:18.210 can help with kind of inclusive research design. 00:36:18.929 --> 00:36:22.590 And then importantly, we're going to have a design 00:36:22.590 --> 00:36:26.289 thinking element to the day where we can co -create 00:36:26.289 --> 00:36:29.409 our own kind of community of practice ethos, 00:36:29.409 --> 00:36:33.409 because I'm really passionate that we create 00:36:33.409 --> 00:36:36.670 spaces where we can. bring our full selves into 00:36:36.670 --> 00:36:39.710 our collaboration how we work together how we 00:36:39.710 --> 00:36:42.150 kind of bounce off each other give give each 00:36:42.150 --> 00:36:45.329 other peer feedback without those hierarchies 00:36:45.329 --> 00:36:48.010 because i've heard from so many people feeling 00:36:48.010 --> 00:36:50.429 like they have imposter syndrome and i think 00:36:50.429 --> 00:36:52.949 well if everybody has imposter syndrome who who 00:36:52.949 --> 00:36:56.010 is actually the right person to be here you know 00:36:56.010 --> 00:36:57.769 everybody feels like they're not enough in some 00:36:57.769 --> 00:37:00.710 way But to me, that's the whole point of having 00:37:00.710 --> 00:37:04.489 a community. So, yeah, I'm really looking forward 00:37:04.489 --> 00:37:06.610 to it and I'm really looking forward to what 00:37:06.610 --> 00:37:09.269 relationships come out of this and what new ideas 00:37:09.269 --> 00:37:11.530 are sparked. So sign up to the Light community, 00:37:11.929 --> 00:37:15.190 the Incubator channel, Light newsletter, all 00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:18.949 that stuff. Yeah. So moving on to the final question 00:37:18.949 --> 00:37:22.210 then. So it sounds like you've developed quite 00:37:22.210 --> 00:37:24.190 a good partnership while you're doing this research 00:37:24.190 --> 00:37:26.269 project and it's been a bit of an emotional experience 00:37:26.269 --> 00:37:29.440 at times. So thinking about other people that 00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:31.980 might be venturing on to doing their own subtle 00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:35.000 projects, pedagogical research projects, have 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:37.760 you got any advice for those people or is there 00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:41.179 something you would do differently? That's a 00:37:41.179 --> 00:37:47.800 very good question. I still asked. Yeah, I mean, 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:53.440 I think the only thing that I would say is just... 00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:56.619 don't go in with that rigid idea of, you know, 00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.360 this is what my methodology is going to look 00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:01.659 like. This is how the process is going to go. 00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:05.059 In my experience, the best research comes out 00:38:05.059 --> 00:38:07.460 of those, you know, those. There's really like 00:38:07.460 --> 00:38:09.519 eye watering moments where you're like, what 00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:12.699 on earth am I doing? And it's incredibly difficult. 00:38:12.739 --> 00:38:14.500 And then you've got to almost go back to the 00:38:14.500 --> 00:38:16.519 drawing board. And it is very iterative. So just 00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:18.780 throw yourself into that. Expect that that will 00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:21.920 happen. That is a normal part of any research 00:38:21.920 --> 00:38:24.639 process and also just a really good learning 00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:27.960 experience, too. And then secondly, as I've said. 00:38:28.219 --> 00:38:31.079 just be really willing to be open -minded and 00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:33.400 uh to you know when you're working with research 00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:35.440 partners and and the different the different 00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:39.300 x because that that um for me going in with that 00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:42.000 um or like i've never worked with somebody with 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.059 in in professional services before you know and 00:38:45.059 --> 00:38:47.539 just being open to listen to what jenny's experiences 00:38:47.539 --> 00:38:50.519 were and seeing the way that she looks at higher 00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:52.679 education and from that from that different viewpoint 00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:56.769 like i've learned so much um from from from jenny 00:38:56.769 --> 00:38:59.170 and then sorry just to go back i was i was reflecting 00:38:59.170 --> 00:39:01.050 as you were talking there was there was one other 00:39:01.050 --> 00:39:04.750 thing that i think i um touched on as i was saying 00:39:04.750 --> 00:39:08.110 that you know universities prepare uh students 00:39:08.110 --> 00:39:10.389 to become professionals and again for me i think 00:39:10.389 --> 00:39:12.829 that the final thing that i wanted to say the 00:39:12.829 --> 00:39:14.610 thing that i'll be taking forward is as we prepare 00:39:14.610 --> 00:39:16.929 people to go into professional settings like 00:39:16.929 --> 00:39:20.409 for me as as as a doctor now so a part of so 00:39:20.409 --> 00:39:24.010 the regulator the the gmc they set as standards 00:39:24.010 --> 00:39:26.010 and as part of that standards one of them is 00:39:26.010 --> 00:39:29.250 teaching so we must almost evidence that we're 00:39:29.250 --> 00:39:32.769 we're we're teaching and and this has this project 00:39:32.769 --> 00:39:35.130 and all these other different student experiences 00:39:35.130 --> 00:39:38.409 that that we've analyzed for for me as a doctor 00:39:38.409 --> 00:39:41.150 now i'll i will go on and consider like the person 00:39:41.150 --> 00:39:43.190 that i'm teaching whether it be at the bed bedside 00:39:43.190 --> 00:39:48.429 or uh in in in a classroom setting now um thinking 00:39:48.429 --> 00:39:50.929 about like is what i'm saying and doing is it 00:39:51.130 --> 00:39:53.389 is it working for everybody in the room? And 00:39:53.389 --> 00:39:55.070 I think you can often get really invested if 00:39:55.070 --> 00:39:56.809 you're busy, particularly if you are in a professional 00:39:56.809 --> 00:39:58.650 setting. And there were quotes about being on 00:39:58.650 --> 00:40:00.090 placement, weren't there? Like discussing this 00:40:00.090 --> 00:40:01.570 exact thing and just thinking about how can we 00:40:01.570 --> 00:40:03.590 make it more inclusive? And I was thinking about, 00:40:03.610 --> 00:40:05.570 you know... people who are graduating now as 00:40:05.570 --> 00:40:07.469 lawyers and the and the just all the different 00:40:07.469 --> 00:40:09.869 professional type of uh settings or teachers 00:40:09.869 --> 00:40:12.570 and um and thinking about how they can apply 00:40:12.570 --> 00:40:15.090 this the lessons from this research and that 00:40:15.090 --> 00:40:17.349 in a different professional context but yeah 00:40:17.349 --> 00:40:19.409 i mean i guess uh that was just one thing i just 00:40:19.409 --> 00:40:21.110 quickly wanted to return to i love that i'm glad 00:40:21.110 --> 00:40:24.429 you did thank you And then I think, yeah, as 00:40:24.429 --> 00:40:27.750 I say, just I was very lucky. And I'm not just 00:40:27.750 --> 00:40:31.590 saying this with me. You really were a wonderful 00:40:31.590 --> 00:40:34.670 person to work with. And I've and I've learned 00:40:34.670 --> 00:40:38.170 so much from you. So I guess my my two points 00:40:38.170 --> 00:40:41.110 are just be open to the experience, expect challenges, 00:40:41.250 --> 00:40:44.369 but I guess embrace them. Yeah. And I think mine 00:40:44.369 --> 00:40:49.510 would be also be open minded to to learning about 00:40:49.510 --> 00:40:52.719 each of the strengths. you know without having 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:54.519 a kind of preconceived idea because obviously 00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:57.260 I was working with a student and then this student 00:40:57.260 --> 00:40:59.260 is coming to work with me as a member of professional 00:40:59.260 --> 00:41:01.480 services or like Mike said he didn't really know 00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:03.659 what professional services was and I've got all 00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:05.699 of these preconceived ideas about what a student 00:41:05.699 --> 00:41:09.519 can do or has done in in their you know in their 00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:11.860 degree when actually really I know nothing you 00:41:11.860 --> 00:41:14.460 know and we are each bringing ourselves and our 00:41:14.460 --> 00:41:18.099 and our own lived experience into this so um 00:41:18.099 --> 00:41:23.349 so Through working together, we did work out 00:41:23.349 --> 00:41:27.090 what each other's strengths were and there were 00:41:27.090 --> 00:41:30.429 points at which Mike had a lot more, say, stamina 00:41:30.429 --> 00:41:34.090 for looking through data, for example, but also 00:41:34.090 --> 00:41:38.090 was quite time poor at times because he was studying. 00:41:38.289 --> 00:41:40.550 So we had different paces of work. So I think 00:41:40.550 --> 00:41:43.630 that was also something to kind of get used to. 00:41:43.670 --> 00:41:45.630 But in terms of would I do anything differently? 00:41:46.860 --> 00:41:50.300 Well, obviously I would now because I've done 00:41:50.300 --> 00:41:54.719 that kind of research now. I plan it a lot better, 00:41:54.940 --> 00:41:56.539 I think, because now I've got the experience. 00:41:57.340 --> 00:42:03.420 But perhaps I would be more willing to reach 00:42:03.420 --> 00:42:07.139 out in advance to people that had more experience. 00:42:07.739 --> 00:42:12.510 But I think for me... You don't know what you 00:42:12.510 --> 00:42:14.510 don't know, really. And I like to just start 00:42:14.510 --> 00:42:16.889 doing something and feel like I'm immersed in 00:42:16.889 --> 00:42:20.590 it before the next question arises, you know. 00:42:21.289 --> 00:42:23.969 So it's not necessarily the ideal way of doing 00:42:23.969 --> 00:42:26.030 it. But that can also be quite tricky when you're 00:42:26.030 --> 00:42:27.969 trying to work with another person. You're trying 00:42:27.969 --> 00:42:30.269 to lead them, but you're also kind of learning 00:42:30.269 --> 00:42:31.969 as you go. And I don't know whether you found 00:42:31.969 --> 00:42:36.110 that frustrating at all. No, not at all. I mean, 00:42:36.150 --> 00:42:40.289 Jenny, she raises a really valuable point, particularly 00:42:40.289 --> 00:42:43.610 if you're working with... with students so you 00:42:43.610 --> 00:42:46.110 know i'm a mature student as well so i i guess 00:42:46.110 --> 00:42:48.969 i you know it's fair for me to say that like 00:42:48.969 --> 00:42:51.289 i bring a bit more life experience than when 00:42:51.289 --> 00:42:54.230 i saw i guess i you know was more willing to 00:42:54.230 --> 00:42:57.190 like you know i as you get older you develop 00:42:57.190 --> 00:43:00.630 better communication skills and emotional regulation 00:43:00.630 --> 00:43:03.010 when things get very stressful and that's just 00:43:03.010 --> 00:43:04.690 something that that comes with age and i think 00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:06.369 yeah i think jenny raised a really good point 00:43:06.369 --> 00:43:08.170 that you know in particular like you know going 00:43:08.170 --> 00:43:11.380 through um Going through medical school and the 00:43:11.380 --> 00:43:14.420 intense exams of that, she's absolutely fair 00:43:14.420 --> 00:43:17.699 to point out that at different points I had less 00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:23.000 to give. And I think that is something that my 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:26.280 experience as a student in that situation, often 00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:29.699 it felt like that it was a disappointment for 00:43:29.699 --> 00:43:31.440 you and it was a disappointment for me. And I 00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:35.000 wish that I was able to give more, especially 00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:40.889 to a project that is so important. No, I can't 00:43:40.889 --> 00:43:42.690 say that I ever felt frustrated with you. Oh, 00:43:42.690 --> 00:43:48.670 good. You were great. That's good. I don't know 00:43:48.670 --> 00:43:49.889 about you, Hayley, but it almost feels like a 00:43:49.889 --> 00:43:52.469 shame to bring the episode to a close. Yeah, 00:43:52.550 --> 00:43:55.570 yeah. It'd be nice to listen to it. Well, I guess 00:43:55.570 --> 00:43:57.909 all that remains is to thank everyone for participating. 00:43:59.010 --> 00:44:02.789 Do read the article. Sign up to the Incubator 00:44:02.789 --> 00:44:07.920 launch event. And thanks once again. and see 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.440 you all next time thank you