Welcome to LITE Bites, an occasional podcast
from Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence
at the University of Leeds. Episodes will be
hosted by members of the LITE team. And we'll
be showcasing the scholarship of teaching and
learning from across the university. Hello, welcome
to the latest episode of LITE Bites. My name
is Robert Averies from the Leeds Institute for
Teaching Excellence. I'm joined today by Andy
Curtin. Hello. Thanks for having me. No worries,
you're welcome. And Andy Curtin has recently
completed a light fellowship called Removing
Dominance and Gatekeeping in Higher Education.
And that's what Andy is here to talk to you about
today. So perhaps to get things started, you
could tell us a little bit about what you do
at the University of Leeds. Sure, yeah. So my
main job role is, the title is Lecturer in Applied
Ethics. So I work at IDEA, the Ethics Centre.
So we do... kind of interdisciplinary teaching
research and consultancy in ethics and ethics
in society type of issues so yeah most of my
job role I'm teaching and scholarship lecturer
so I'm predominantly teaching based and basically
we teach ethics relevant to disciplines across
the university so we might be in engineering
or business or dentistry medicine any discipline
that you know has a bit of ethics relevant to
their course people like me come in and we talk
to students about ethics and get them discussing
it and seeing how their work and kind of professional
practice and maybe their future careers raises
ethical issues and what kinds of things they'll
have to um navigate in the future for themselves
and yeah what to think about um so that's that's
my sort of main job is a lot of teaching but
i also do uh research so my published work is
on the nature of trust and what it means to trust
people and why trust has got this kind of ethical
or moral significance to it so when you trust
someone Doesn't just matter to you that they
do the thing. It sort of matters to you that
they said they would do the thing. And it's,
you know, if they let you down, then that's a
kind of interpersonal kind of wronging. So my
work explored all that. And so how people work
together, why it matters to them that people
do what they say they're going to do. And kind
of looking at that in terms of interpersonal
relationships, but also in social structures,
societies, corporations. all that sort of stuff.
I think about trust a lot and, yeah, how society
works and how we fit together, basically. Not
to dumb the conversation down at all, but I'm
really glad that I held up my end of the bargain
with this podcast. Right. I would do that several
months ago. Yeah, yeah. If you'd have cancelled,
I wouldn't have mind. So what motivated you to
start your Light Fellowship? Yeah, so probably,
like I said, the fact that I was doing a lot
of teaching as my main job role. um so i've taught
now for 10 years or a bit over 10 years um so
i used to teach as part of my phd at university
of manchester um now been at leeds for six seven
years um teaching a lot and you get used to i
guess thinking about you know what is it what
is it that i'm doing what is it that i'm trying
to get students to do and sort of reflecting
on how to me the the practice of teaching in
a university felt and I was sort of struck by
this this feeling that oftentimes I felt like
I was being kind of unfair to students or that
what I was getting them to do was kind of mysterious
and that's partly so like I said my teaching
involves going into these other disciplines where
students don't really know what philosophy or
ethics amounts to they don't and they don't really
care about it often or um yeah they're not immediately
sort of on board with the point of what you're
trying to get them to do um so you might only
be teaching them uh for just that one hour session
or something and then you don't see them again
so when you're put in that kind of position like
i was you're really forced to think about okay
what is the kind of bare essential thing that
I'm trying to get them to do and what's the value
of it and how can I transmit to them that value
and that function or you know the sort of practice
of it in such a short space of time because I
don't I don't have the whole session to just
go on about you know why you should care about
this it's often like 10 minutes or five minutes
if that right at the start so just doing all
this teaching and maybe that also involves Getting
them to do some assessment as well on some of
that teaching. So a lot of disciplines, they
might have kind of a small ethics portion for
the students to complete as part of the overall
assessment in that module. And then so I was
thinking a lot about how do I convey this to
them, the value of this? And then the assessment
that I'm doing, what is it actually doing for
them? What is the point of this ethics assessment?
I'm giving them this marking criteria and I'm
explaining to them this is what we're after.
It felt very sort of top -down and imposed, like
you just have to do these things to tick this
box and then, no, you can move on, you can forget
you ever met me, that kind of thing. So do all
this teaching, think about all that. What is
the point in this? And then I had another experience.
It was 2020, 2021 during the pandemic. I learned
to drive. And so this like period where I was
thinking about what is all this, what we're doing.
I was learning to drive at the same time and
something struck me about the way that doing
driving lessons was very different to my experience
of teaching students in university. And at this
very sort of get go of doing driving lessons.
you're aware right this thing that you're aiming
towards this is going to come at the end and
it's going to have all these um maneuvers that
you're asked to complete and what we're going
to do in these lessons we've maybe got 20 30
lessons we're just going to do these maneuvers
over and over again so it becomes part of your
muscle memory i thought a lot of that is very
different to this sort of in -person teaching
that i'm doing where maybe i'm doing a lecture
on a topic i'm doing a seminar And maybe seminars
revolve around students discussing questions.
And maybe I'm asking them, you know, air your
views and think about others' views. Maybe in
a lecture, I'm sort of giving them some theories
and some background of this issue that we're
discussing. But the sort of connection between
that in -person teaching, the final thing I then
hit them with, maybe weeks later, where, you
know, I've got this essay for you to write. the
things didn't seem very connected in my mind
in a way which is very different to you know
the driving lessons are kind of practice these
maneuvers that you do over and over again do
a test on them and so you see this sort of pathway
in this trajectory and you experience your progress
you experience yourself getting better at it
so I was just like yeah what is the connection
between these things and yeah it was like how
how can we get teaching done in a way so it's
more like the driving lessons basically um more
transparent and more kind of giving the students
the sort of power to take control of their learning
so all these kinds of things yeah and you spoke
to the um multidisciplinarity of your work but
also i think this approach lends itself well
to wide range of disciplines in terms of how
we can shift those power dynamics. So if you're
listening to this and you're teaching, you're
designing a curriculum, keep listening because
this work is really relevant. Obviously, you
adapt it and you interpret it in your own way.
Yeah, yeah. So that was the thing I was thinking
about. So we all have our different disciplines.
We're all getting students to do something that
we want them to be able to do, which is a kind
of essential part of this discipline. But how
does teaching and assessment kind of, yeah, relate
to that overall thing that we do as academics
or, you know, what people do in society when,
let's say, I'm a philosopher, but academic philosophy
doesn't have a monopoly on being philosophical.
Like, that's something anyone can do. So how
does learning to do it in a university environment
relate to... this kind of more general human
practice and i guess the same is true of other
of other disciplines you know you can you can
study um all kinds of things at university and
it's not just training you in doing this particular
reified academic thing it's supposed to be sort
of this widely applicable human thing so yeah
how is it i guess the thing i was really wrestling
with was how is it that i can convey to students
get them hooked and get them seeing the value
of doing this method or technique in this academic
level that yeah it's not it's not just a load
of um theories or expectations in a marking criteria
it's it's this like essential human thing that
um is supposed to enrich our lives in in some
way it would be really good at this point i think
for listeners to hear a little bit about how
this was channeled into your light fellowship
in particular. So what sorts of, I don't know,
research questions or aims did you have? And
then how did you go about investigating it? Yeah,
so this was a thing that shifted over time a
little bit. So because I started off the project
and the proposal for the project was this quite
sort of blue sky thing in a way, which was, you
know, how do you address this? where you're keeping
standards that you're asking students to meet
mysterious or you're sort of not directly training
them in it or you hit them with assessments that
seem to bear some relation to what they do in
in -person teaching, but it's not necessarily
clear. That kind of broad idea, then making that
into a tractable thing, which you can do some
research on or do a project on exploring how
to address that. I essentially really struggled
to come up with a set of research aims or research
plan in a way which I felt fit the kind of light
formula or model. So I kind of went into this
being like, I want to explore this and maybe
do some experimental forms of teaching where
I essentially leave it up to the students to
do everything. And then I kind of hit institutional
stumbling blocks. Well, there's limits to what
you can reasonably mess around with in terms
of how teaching or assessment works. So I had
to think about what I was going to do in the
restrictions of working in the student education
machinery. But then I was also thinking, OK,
what is it I'm actually trying to test or find
out? So I kind of came up with various versions
of. a bunch of survey questions to try and get
views from students about how they felt. Yeah,
their sort of sense of ownership over their subject
was. So I remember coming up with survey questions
about, do you feel like you're being trained
as a practitioner of your discipline? Or to what
extent do the lecturer's standards seem transparent
to you? Or to what extent do you think those
standards that they're asking you to meet? Are
the result of just preferences of the lecturers
themselves or do they relate to some kind of
external thing that's like important in the world?
So again, thinking back to the driving lesson
stuff, I was like, it's a clear way in which
you can drive successfully because that's a matter
of the way the world is and the way that a car
functions. You can either do it well or you can't.
Whereas a lot of the time, and this was something
I experienced as a student, when you get your
feedback on a piece of work back on an assessment,
you're kind of looking at this feedback going
like, OK, OK, so I did that well. I didn't do
that well. But you can't quite see why. It's
like, you know, oh, you needed to do more critical
analysis. OK, I can kind of vaguely understand
what that means, but not exactly sure. So it's
all, yeah, this way of trying to figure out.
How do I extract from students their feelings
about this stuff? Coming up with survey questions.
I was also coming up with survey questions for
teaching staff. Do they think about these kinds
of issues? You know, what do you see? I was thinking
of survey questions like, what do you see your
role as a lecturer or teacher? Do you see yourself
as kind of bringing students into the discipline
or just seeing whether they should be allowed
into it? Or to what extent do you see yourself
as handing over the kind of methods or the tools
that are relevant for your discipline? Or to
what extent do you see yourself as ensuring the
integrity of those tools or ensuring that they're
not mishandled? So I was kind of interested in
all these questions about what's going on inside
students and teachers' heads. But I essentially
got very little traction in getting that kind
of approach. off the ground so found it a struggle
to get kind of empirical route to thinking about
my question and i hit many different stumbling
blocks essentially kept stalling on it and kind
of at the end ran out of time and what happened
what happened then was um uh speaking to light
about it uh saying oh well i could do this kind
of last ditch thing where maybe i um do some
observations of teaching and just write some
reflections on that. And I can't remember exactly,
but that didn't seem to get off the ground either.
And then I said, OK, well, what I could do is
just write a piece about how I'm thinking about
all this, sort of write a philosophical, conceptual
piece, maybe run a workshop because I know people
who think about this stuff within philosophy.
And that got the thumbs up. So I guess in the
end. My approach sort of started off quite blue
sky and then I spent a bunch of time trying to
figure out and I was a bit in the weeds of I
need to make this empirical or quantitative or
qualitative in some way. And in the end, I looped
back around to I could just do the thing that
I'm trained to do as a philosopher and think
about it conceptually and write something and
maybe get a bunch of people together to. think
in the same way to sort of reflect on what we're
doing and come up with some new ways of thinking
and yeah expanding on everything can i ask you
about the workshop in a bit more detail because
as far as i know it was really successful for
you and has led to some potential ongoing work
in this area yeah uh people said they had a really
nice time and that it was a good workshop um
i tried to make sure that everyone uh feels like
Basically, it's worthwhile them dragging themselves
out of bed and spending an entire day in a room
full of people they might not know. And some
external participants as well. Yeah, sure, yeah.
So I had someone called Leonie Smith, who's at
Lancaster. So I used to, when I was at Manchester,
she was doing a PhD in philosophy. She started
just as I was sort of finishing it, but we've
kept in touch and remained friends. So she works
on issues around... working class representation
in philosophy. And so a bunch of the stuff that
I was thinking about, lots of people who are
concerned about issues around class, these ideas
really resonated with them because working class
students come to university lacking this kind
of, I guess, cultural capital or tacit knowledge
about what's expected in a kind of university
environment or what doing an academic discipline.
is kind of about in a way which more middle or
upper class students, they don't like that knowledge.
So yeah, Leonie came to talk about that. And
I had some people that then Leonie put me in
touch with. So her collaborator, Anne -Marie
McCallion, who's at Manchester Metropolitan.
So they did some collaborative talks together
and a PhD student from Manchester called Lucia
Duda. And she was looking at the sort of styles
of analytic philosophy and what kinds of approaches
it prescribes. And yeah, and then I had my friend
Ashlyn Crean, who I co -authored some work on
Trust with a bunch of years ago. Yeah, she came
and spoke on the same stuff. And yeah, it was
a successful workshop. And what it's led to is...
A set of ongoing conversations and I'm putting
together right now a proposal for an edited collection
that I've got a publisher interested in. And
it's just going to be on the same stuff that
the workshop was on, you know, styles, standards
in philosophy, but also other disciplines. And
essentially the question was, and this was the
question of the workshop, who gets to decide
on what the standards are? in an academic discipline
because you know as teachers we all enforce and
enact these kinds of mechanisms for imposing
standards on students but we kind of we kind
of do that because well that's our job you know
i've got the i've got the essays to set i've
got the marking criteria i need to assign we
just kind of do it and it's um it's something
that yeah reinforces and perpetuates the same
standards it It moulds students in that image
and they come up through that same system. So
it selects for certain sets of standards. So
I guess the workshop question and what I'm getting
people to collaborate in this edited collection
to write about is, well, who decides on those
standards? Why are they how they are for this
particular discipline? What do those standards
mean? And are those standards ones that serve?
or resonate with or that are valuable to all
different kinds of people who can study a discipline
um yeah because it those are sort of questions
that aren't particularly reflected on and the
mechanisms of teaching and assessment don't allow
any kind of give in those standards because it's
just well that's just what you have to do yeah
i if you don't mind i'd love to just Read something
from your light snapshot. Yeah, sure. So I think
it's great. So you describe your worry that as
a marker, you're at some level acting as a gatekeeper
for disciplinary standards that are not open
to question or challenge. So the process by which
the discipline selects new recruits, in fact,
feeds the power of a dominant gatekeeping demographic
who can set the rules how they like. Through
your fellowship, the workshop you did and the
conceptual work you've done, What's your sense
of this now in terms of some of the tensions
around this and potential routes out of this
sort of dichotomy? Yeah, one thing that's become
clear to me is that, oh, actually, these questions
do resonate with lots of people in lots of other
disciplines. So I've spoken to people working
in languages here at Leeds, and they were saying,
you know, this is stuff that we really wrestle
with because in teaching languages. What we're
doing is we're saying there's a prescribed way
of using a language, but that's not how languages
work. They're things in the world, in the wild.
So what we're doing is there a way in which we're
enforcing a certain kind of way of using a language
and that's imposing a kind of dominant group's
interests in how that language works on students.
Yeah, there's been people I've spoken to who
work in... English literature and English language
who talk about the ways in which you should or
shouldn't analyze texts and how those standards
get conveyed to students. So, yeah, that's what
surprised me is and what I've learned is, oh,
it's not just me in my head thinking about this.
And it was revealed to me as well. There's a
bunch of areas of philosophy where people in
my discipline. ostensibly had been thinking about
this but because of the sort of academic route
I guess I came up through as an undergraduate
and then as a graduate student I just wasn't
exposed to that work so a lot of work in black
American philosophy they've written about this
for for decades and it's been an ongoing thing
and I sort of like oh okay yeah all right so
it's not just me is like it's it's got resonance
with loads of different um groups in terms of
ways out of it or ways to address it i guess
the kind of quick answer to that is well at least
we need to be aware of this as a thing that we're
doing and to then you know it's a bit of a cliche
thing to say but at least we're starting conversations
about it i suppose and then through that my hope
is that We can kind of look at, and I suspect
it might be quite simple, the kinds of things
we can do. So if we look at how we teach and
how we set assessments, so long as we build in
some ways for students to think about and reflect
on what the value of those standards are, maybe
get them to, so something I want to do in future,
is to get students to a position where they...
feel like they can make mistakes more so by that
i mean they can mess around with the standards
so it's through essentially how i learn is through
trying to break something and trying to see how
it goes wrong and then i go okay so it has to
do that because otherwise it's like this whereas
a university kind of path and assessment path
because it's it's very much like okay you you
do the actual bits of work they tend to count
for marks so there's not much way in which they
can forgivably mess up it all sort of counts
so in that sense there's no uh there's a lot
of incentives against failure and against sort
of seeing the value of the way things should
be done by seeing how to break them or seeing
how they go wrong. So, yeah, I'd like to see
if the scope to allow students to be more playful
with standards and to get a sense of what they
mean and whether that's certain kinds of teaching
techniques I used over the years in thinking
about all this stuff was to just in in -person
teaching sessions, get them doing little exercises,
little bits of work that. Maybe it's just like
a mini bit of an essay or a mini presentation.
It's not, you know, I guess it's classed as formative,
but it might just be one shot and it might just
be within that session. And they write it, we
talk about it, we forget about it in the next
session. And to do that over and over again and
to get them not being scared to kind of be wasteful
with their work and to just do little bits. see
what works, see what doesn't work, and then through
that they get more familiar with the standards
and maybe appreciate the value of, okay, this
is both what critical analysis means and this
is maybe why critical analysis is done in this
particular format that the lecturer is asking
me to follow. Fantastic. I can think of several
light fellowships, both ongoing and completed,
like yours, that draw upon critical pedagogy
as a very common one, actually, growing at light.
And I can see how that fits within these wider
pieces of work that people are doing across a
range of different disciplines. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've spoken to a bunch of other people who are
doing light fellowships and, yeah, often there's
some kind of sense of there needs to be more
scope for this, this kind of... playfulness formative
uh formative assessment if if you want to call
it but it to me it's just about getting them
doing it getting the because it's not all just
this transmission of all right you need to learn
these things and then repeat them back to me
at this time it's about it's like any kind of
learning um i just think about you know how even
sort of primitive monkeys copying one another
you know a monkey with a stick jams it into the
termite hole pulls out termites the other one
observes okay so that's the way to do it and
it's all very sort of clear whereas yeah a lot
of university setup seems to not have that kind
of core structure to it built in yeah i think
there are certain contemporary challenges as
well that make this particularly important absolutely
yeah so the way that the university system works
and the sort of A lot of this fellowship got
me just thinking about what is the function and
what is the role of a university now. And it
seemed to me that a big looming thing that I
need to grapple with is essentially it's a ranking
or sorting mechanism. So society has this big
interest in basically people coming out of university
education pathway being rubber stamped with something
that then can inform. employers or other you
know other bodies what do i make of this person
and um yeah where should they go and what what's
their sort of significance or their their sort
of value or role in society so university isn't
necessarily so it's incidentally about education
but it seems to me well the primary function
actually because you can learn yourself and you
can go off and learn from youtube and whatever
it seems like the primary function is this kind
of approval mechanism or rubber stamping thing
yeah it's almost as if the university doesn't
exist in its own vacuum it's part of society
and it's yeah intricately connected and plays
a constitutive role in what happens outside of
the university right absolutely i mean someone
more clued up on the history of the university
as an institution and sort of how they started
would probably be able to interject at this point
and say something like yeah that's because please
write to us at light yeah yeah at least exactly
yeah yeah of course the university was the thing
that fed the whatever the higher levels of politics
and i mean it's still to some extent like that
not not every university but i think and i don't
want to sound like i'm just sort of um here to
promote light fellowships although i guess that's
part of the purpose to have um But one of the
things that I know is working with Light Fellows
is often many of the outcomes, if you like, are
ways of thinking and ways of thinking differently,
not always restricted to the particular aims
of the fellowship itself. So sometimes it's teleological
like this, but it also spans off in loads of
different areas and that's really exciting and
good to hear. Yeah, yeah. I've mentioned... andy's
light snapshot which you can find on his his
light profile are there any other outputs stemming
from your fellowship that listeners can expect
to engage with in the future yeah so i've got
plans um to put together so during the fellowship
i kind of did little conference talks where i
broke down some they're not like revolutionary
but some teaching techniques i was using in my
own teaching those resonated with particular
people and I think I shared them with various
kind of school academic leads for inclusive practice
in other schools. So those resources did take
on a bit of a life beyond just my own hard drive.
So I'm going to compile those as a little resource
and I did try and find time to write a toolkit
or some kind of, you know, implications for practice
thing. which I was going to share. I've not had
time to do that yet. What my main focus has been
in going forwards and what the main sort of output
I'm hoping for this to be is that editor collection.
So I'm currently putting that together and compiling
abstracts from people I've spoken to who are
on board with it. And yeah, very soon I'm hoping
to approach the publisher with that. So they're
already on board and they're very keen on it,
but I need to... get the next stage sort of sorted,
which is they go, yep, all right, now go ahead
and write it based on all these abstracts. So
that's the main thing I'm going to be working
on. And yeah, I have to write, so I have to turn
the talk I did at the workshop into a written
piece, which is proving challenging because that
talk was all about what happens if I do a talk
and I don't follow the conventions of my discipline.
Does it still count? as a talk in that discipline?
And do I still say something? So I'm trying to
sort of translate that form into a written piece
and it not just be a complete sort of misfire
or failure. Yeah. Yeah. I still want them to
publish it. That's the thing. So, yeah. These
are the judgments that we often have to consider.
A couple more questions before we finish from
my perspective. One is... Do you have any advice
for anyone considering conducting pedagogical
research or a light fellowship? Yeah. So advice
based on my experience, I guess, is reckon seriously
with work loading from your main job role. One
of the main struggles I had was protecting time
for the light fellowship. The main job role kind
of contracts and expands in terms of its obligations
in. over the course of a year and a semester
in this really kind of non -linear way. And the
crumples I own in my workload time that took
the impact was my own research time and this
light buyout time. So that was a real struggle.
So I'd think seriously about getting commitments
maybe from your line manager in your substantive
role. Can I take this morning and block it out
for me to work on? my fellowship um do maybe
more belligerent things like put on an out of
office do like go into another room or something
to sort of switch yeah switch your mental framework
and then the the other thing um so i described
the kind of roundabout route i went through in
planning the project and figuring out what it
was um I mean, in my case, maybe that was a sort
of inevitable thing that just had to play out.
But if you can go into your project with a kind
of clear sense of what's the technique, what's
the method, what's the thing that you're excited
to do? So I think one of the problems with the
way I was sort of approaching this in. the sort
of middle bits where I was trying to make it
into an empirical thing it's just well that didn't
that wasn't the thing that excited me in the
first place necessarily the main thing that excited
me as a philosopher was to just think about these
bigger questions and to try and square them in
my own mind in a way that I could then write
about and in a way which wouldn't be kind of
completely divorced from practice but in a way
which wasn't necessarily about kind of empirically
verifying anything or getting any data I think
the way I've worked in my teaching practice is
to kind of follow my intuition and then reflect
on it and write some reflections and then do
different things. But I didn't necessarily need
to get any data, I think, in my case. So, yeah,
just think about what's the thing that you're
good at and what you're excited to do, I guess.
And I say, if you're listening and considering
this, talk to us as well. Yeah, so I got loads
of help. in the end from from Robert, Lucy and
Sinead. Yeah, it was all very much appreciated
in the end. Yeah. This is a nice segue to my
final question, which is a bit of an off the
cuff kind of meta ped res question, which is
and I'm only partly asking this because I'd love
to work with and to see more pedagogical research
from your disciplinary area. What's your sense
on the role that philosophical thinking and your
disciplinary methodologies can play in taking
forward and asking different questions about
the nature of pedagogical research or scholarship
yeah nice question um and very relevant to what
i was talking about i guess so the thing that
i've clocked usually uh when i've said my bit
or um kind of talk to people from other disciplines
um the thing that i get a kind of positive reaction
from is my ability to challenge or point out
Things that are just kind of taken as given or
assumptions made or that, you know, seem to be
tacit assumptions or ways of doing things. And
to go, why is it like that? And, you know, cliche
philosopher just going, well, why? But there
is a sort of power to that. To ask these kinds
of basic questions gets people out of the kind
of guide rails of their thinking and the guide
rails of practice. just like do just repeating
the same stuff and same ways of doing things
um so the value of i guess coming from a discipline
like philosophy or similar ones which is all
about kind of critiquing questioning and just
pulling back and trying to take in a bigger picture
and go okay what's the sort of underlying thing
here that people are missing i guess that's got
loads of value for how to think about teaching
better or how to think about assessment better
because it you're able to sort of extract think
about and extract um yeah what's the point of
all this and is there something about how we're
doing it currently which has kind of lost its
way or is kind of obscuring or distorting the
the thing that's really precious about it in
some way um so yeah and that's just based on
my experience of I'll have these times when I'll
talk to people in other disciplines and I'll
go oh that's interesting I've not thought about
it like that I'm going oh okay yeah okay maybe
that all that time doing philosophy hasn't been
wasted thanks Andy all right cheers Robert yeah
really enjoyed our conversation I hope it was
a useful experience to kind of reflect on your
your like fellowship and consider definitely
yeah it's nice to um piece together things good
yeah as I'm talking good almost forgot This is
for an audience. I hope you enjoyed listening
to the conversation and we'll include links to
any resources in the show notes. Thanks for listening
to this episode of LITE Bites and we'll see
you next time.