WEBVTT 00:00:09.459 --> 00:00:12.160 Welcome to Light Bites, an occasional podcast 00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:14.240 from Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:17.239 at the University of Leeds. Episodes will be 00:00:17.239 --> 00:00:19.519 hosted by members of the Light team. And we'll 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:21.339 be showcasing the scholarship of teaching and 00:00:21.339 --> 00:00:28.640 learning from across the university. Hello, you're 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:31.179 listening to Light Bites. I'm Robert Averys from 00:00:31.179 --> 00:00:32.939 the Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence. 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:35.340 I'm joined today by Light Fellow Angela Newton. 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:37.719 Morning, Angela. Hello. I'm very well, thank 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:39.920 you. Thank you for inviting me. I'm very excited. 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:43.100 You're more than welcome. So perhaps to kick 00:00:43.100 --> 00:00:45.380 things off, you could tell listeners a little 00:00:45.380 --> 00:00:47.240 bit about what you do at the University of Leeds. 00:00:47.500 --> 00:00:50.219 Yeah, yeah, that's right. So I'm a learning advisor 00:00:50.219 --> 00:00:53.560 with the learning development team. That's part 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:55.939 of the library service here at Leeds. And we're 00:00:55.939 --> 00:00:58.439 responsible for the skills at library service, 00:00:58.619 --> 00:01:02.640 which faces students. So my particular job, I 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:05.640 work directly with law and sociology and social 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:08.540 policy. I work particularly with the academic 00:01:08.540 --> 00:01:10.900 staff to sort of design really good learning 00:01:10.900 --> 00:01:13.739 and teaching activities, particularly around 00:01:13.739 --> 00:01:16.200 academic literacies. So things like writing, 00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:19.120 deep reading. We're thinking a lot about AI, 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:22.359 of course, at the moment. And I work directly 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:24.780 with students as well, which is always just one 00:01:24.780 --> 00:01:28.319 of the most rewarding things I can do. Brilliant. 00:01:28.379 --> 00:01:37.340 Thanks for that introduction. A good question 00:01:37.340 --> 00:01:40.920 to start with would be what first got you into 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:44.879 pedagogical research? What motivated you to apply 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:49.099 for your fellowship? I think there was just a 00:01:49.099 --> 00:01:53.000 sort of increasing sense for me that there were 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:56.019 some quite exciting ideas that could be tapped 00:01:56.019 --> 00:01:58.180 into, but I needed to know a lot more about them. 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:01.120 So, for example. One of the things that really 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:04.079 very directly led me to this is I was working 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:06.060 with one of my fantastic colleagues, Bethany 00:02:06.060 --> 00:02:09.360 Robertson, in sociology and social policy. And 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:13.020 we were designing some learning for some first 00:02:13.020 --> 00:02:16.240 year students. And when we ran it with students, 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:18.939 there was such an interesting reaction from them. 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:21.919 There was such enthusiasm and they joined in 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:25.780 so wholeheartedly and authentically that I thought 00:02:25.780 --> 00:02:27.659 we have to tap into this. We have to understand 00:02:27.659 --> 00:02:30.069 more about this. And the thing that we were doing 00:02:30.069 --> 00:02:35.250 was we'd be using some magazine covers from Cosmopolitan 00:02:35.250 --> 00:02:38.569 magazine. So we had one from the 90s. We had 00:02:38.569 --> 00:02:41.969 one sort of contemporary cover. And we were asking 00:02:41.969 --> 00:02:44.009 students to try and engage in critical thinking 00:02:44.009 --> 00:02:47.849 by comparing the two, first analysing each one 00:02:47.849 --> 00:02:52.030 and then making some comparisons. And the... 00:02:52.349 --> 00:02:56.069 the reaction from the students was really interesting 00:02:56.069 --> 00:02:59.969 and they were very excited to do this. So I wanted 00:02:59.969 --> 00:03:02.530 to dig into that and find out a lot more about 00:03:02.530 --> 00:03:06.409 what that was. And then simultaneously I was 00:03:06.409 --> 00:03:09.090 having discussions with the then Director for 00:03:09.090 --> 00:03:11.710 Student Education, Tom Campbell. I have to name 00:03:11.710 --> 00:03:13.810 check Tom a lot because he's absolutely fundamental 00:03:13.810 --> 00:03:17.530 to this. He's been incredibly supportive. And 00:03:17.530 --> 00:03:22.870 we both had a very strong interest in reading 00:03:22.870 --> 00:03:25.449 in libraries. Obviously, I trained as an academic 00:03:25.449 --> 00:03:29.770 librarian. So this is just in me. It has to have 00:03:29.770 --> 00:03:34.150 outlets. And we started talking about this idea 00:03:34.150 --> 00:03:36.830 of using objects. And I think at some point I 00:03:36.830 --> 00:03:38.849 Googled the term object based learning and went, 00:03:38.889 --> 00:03:42.509 oh, this is a thing. It's a thing that we need 00:03:42.509 --> 00:03:46.379 to understand. Fantastic. And I realise I forgot 00:03:46.379 --> 00:03:48.000 to mention the name of your fellowship, which 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:49.979 is Developing Object -Based Learning at Leeds. 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:53.919 Could you give listeners a summary of what object 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:56.520 -based learning is all about? Yeah. So with object 00:03:56.520 --> 00:03:59.300 -based learning, and this is it's not a new thing. 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:01.560 It's not something that I've created. I've literally 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:04.300 just walked into a discussion that was already 00:04:04.300 --> 00:04:07.520 happening, essentially, but with enormous enthusiasm. 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.199 What object -based learning does is it allows 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:16.180 you to start conversations with students or indeed 00:04:16.180 --> 00:04:20.480 research, whereby you use objects as the stimulus 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:24.019 rather than text. Or you might use the two together. 00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:28.879 So, for example, you could run with, I don't 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:32.500 know, performance students, some sort of kind 00:04:32.500 --> 00:04:35.040 of activity where you present them with objects. 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:38.120 And I was talking to the brilliant Jonathan Pitches 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:42.920 the other day in PCI. He was talking about dancing 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:47.500 with objects as a response to them and with them 00:04:47.500 --> 00:04:51.779 and to make them part of a performance. Other 00:04:51.779 --> 00:04:55.779 things that you can do which are slightly more 00:04:55.779 --> 00:04:58.680 traditional might revolve around, say, archaeologists 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:02.060 and archaeology students interacting with things 00:05:02.060 --> 00:05:04.939 like pottery shards. And you need to do that 00:05:04.939 --> 00:05:07.980 many, many, many times in order to be able to 00:05:07.980 --> 00:05:11.680 understand their context and where they came 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:15.360 from and many other things besides. The way in 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:17.639 which we're interested in using object -based 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:20.480 learning, and of course it happens in lots of 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:22.860 different contexts here at Leeds as well, is 00:05:22.860 --> 00:05:27.120 in terms of allowing students to approach and 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:31.139 unfold an object within their discipline. So 00:05:31.139 --> 00:05:33.240 within their disciplinary frameworks and bringing 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:35.980 all of their knowledge, we allow them to have 00:05:35.980 --> 00:05:39.899 quite free discussions and to come up with their 00:05:39.899 --> 00:05:43.920 own hypotheses and really explore together in 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.339 a very sort of collective way what these things 00:05:47.339 --> 00:05:50.759 might mean. Fantastic. And I certainly experienced 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:52.980 that when participating in your recent spotlight 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:54.920 workshop on object based learning and we were 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.839 deconstructing and unpacking these really common 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:01.029 everyday. but we were looking at them through 00:06:01.029 --> 00:06:03.329 a different lens. And it's really exciting for 00:06:03.329 --> 00:06:05.550 me and I'm sure for listeners to consider how 00:06:05.550 --> 00:06:07.829 they might use objects in their own teaching 00:06:07.829 --> 00:06:11.170 practice or research practice and so on in different 00:06:11.170 --> 00:06:13.930 disciplines and different contexts. We'll get 00:06:13.930 --> 00:06:16.790 on to findings in a little bit. I think one thing 00:06:16.790 --> 00:06:21.389 I'd be keen to ask you is we know some of the 00:06:21.389 --> 00:06:24.089 reasons why you do object -based learning and 00:06:24.089 --> 00:06:26.350 the kind of things it cultivates with students 00:06:26.350 --> 00:06:30.399 in learning experiences. Why is it a particularly 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:33.360 relevant pedagogical approach at this moment 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:35.759 in time? Why do you feel it's particularly important? 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:38.600 Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:41.019 think there's a lot of different answers to that. 00:06:41.100 --> 00:06:45.680 The main ones for me are to do with, okay, we've 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:49.939 come out of, it feels crazy to say five years 00:06:49.939 --> 00:06:54.300 post kind of the beginning of COVID, you know, 00:06:54.300 --> 00:06:57.259 and it's hard to underestimate the impact that 00:06:57.259 --> 00:07:00.050 that had. you know, in society generally, but 00:07:00.050 --> 00:07:05.610 also on education and so many impacts. And so 00:07:05.610 --> 00:07:10.629 we've come back, I think, to campus with a renewed 00:07:10.629 --> 00:07:13.550 sense of, yes, what technology can do for us 00:07:13.550 --> 00:07:15.370 and how powerful it is and how brilliant that 00:07:15.370 --> 00:07:17.610 we can do stuff like this. We didn't even need 00:07:17.610 --> 00:07:19.430 to be in the same room or the same continent 00:07:19.430 --> 00:07:23.990 to have this discussion. But that also, I think, 00:07:24.009 --> 00:07:27.870 definitely led to... for a lot of people, a feeling 00:07:27.870 --> 00:07:30.870 of isolation. And I think higher education has 00:07:30.870 --> 00:07:34.209 suffered from difficulty that a lot of students 00:07:34.209 --> 00:07:38.470 have in returning to campus and live in -person 00:07:38.470 --> 00:07:41.970 teaching. So with the kind of object -based learning 00:07:41.970 --> 00:07:47.350 that I'm interested in, because it is so fundamental 00:07:47.350 --> 00:07:50.810 to be in a room together, and in your case, you 00:07:50.810 --> 00:07:54.370 were having to rely on one another's skills because 00:07:54.370 --> 00:07:57.170 you were... unpacking a tent and putting a tent 00:07:57.170 --> 00:08:01.850 up, albeit inside. Because we need one another 00:08:01.850 --> 00:08:05.269 for those experiences, it combats that sense 00:08:05.269 --> 00:08:08.449 of isolation that was definitely accelerated 00:08:08.449 --> 00:08:12.629 in COVID. And I think because a lot of learning 00:08:12.629 --> 00:08:16.670 is now mediated through screens, there is an 00:08:16.670 --> 00:08:20.430 over -dependence perhaps on them. And that's 00:08:20.430 --> 00:08:25.560 been absolutely blown... Out of all proportion 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:29.800 by the sort of blowout year of Gen AI last year. 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:35.059 So a lot of students have said to me very openly, 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:38.580 you know, if people say they're not using Gen 00:08:38.580 --> 00:08:41.399 AI for their work, that they're basically lying 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:43.860 to you. Equally, I've met a lot of students who 00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:46.120 say that's absolutely not the case. I'm not going 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:51.580 anywhere near it. So I think in terms of materiality. 00:08:52.250 --> 00:08:56.389 Working with objects allows this multi -sensory 00:08:56.389 --> 00:09:01.149 and in -person sort of joint action, which you 00:09:01.149 --> 00:09:03.669 cannot replicate through things like Gen AI. 00:09:03.950 --> 00:09:08.269 You don't need your phone if you're looking at 00:09:08.269 --> 00:09:12.809 a fabric banner and discussing how it's made. 00:09:13.429 --> 00:09:16.049 Because we've provided you with things like magnifying 00:09:16.049 --> 00:09:18.110 glasses to get really close up to the detail. 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:20.559 So unless you wanted to, I don't know, photograph 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:23.639 it and then really zoom in in some sort of incredibly 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:26.139 detailed way, you don't really need your phone. 00:09:26.220 --> 00:09:28.779 And that's been one of the interesting things 00:09:28.779 --> 00:09:31.500 that I've definitely discovered in the process 00:09:31.500 --> 00:09:34.679 of the project is that screen use during object 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:37.899 -based learning is almost non -existent because 00:09:37.899 --> 00:09:42.779 there is this need to get really personal with 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:45.570 the thing that's in front of you. I promise listeners, 00:09:45.649 --> 00:09:47.710 we'll come on to the research design in a second, 00:09:47.769 --> 00:09:49.889 but just to comment further on my participation 00:09:49.889 --> 00:09:53.490 in the workshop. One thing I found really enriching 00:09:53.490 --> 00:09:55.789 was that, as you describe object -based learning 00:09:55.789 --> 00:09:57.769 as a social experience, as a social practice, 00:09:58.029 --> 00:10:00.529 when we were all looking at the same object, 00:10:00.769 --> 00:10:03.269 we were doing it for our different lenses, both 00:10:03.269 --> 00:10:05.690 in terms of lived experience, but also disciplinary. 00:10:05.990 --> 00:10:09.350 So I was analysing... material through maybe 00:10:09.350 --> 00:10:11.289 quite a sociological lens whereas I had other 00:10:11.289 --> 00:10:13.450 colleagues who were looking at it from very different 00:10:13.450 --> 00:10:16.850 perspectives and together we had this really 00:10:16.850 --> 00:10:19.549 enriched understanding of how we look at it and 00:10:19.549 --> 00:10:21.750 what it means to different people what it could 00:10:21.750 --> 00:10:26.230 be illustrative of what it could suggest represent 00:10:26.230 --> 00:10:29.809 and I found that really really good and reflective 00:10:29.809 --> 00:10:34.509 so moving on Could you give listeners an overview 00:10:34.509 --> 00:10:38.049 of your research design and how did you go about 00:10:38.049 --> 00:10:44.730 your light fellowship? So the two sort of main 00:10:44.730 --> 00:10:48.870 aims that I had were to, one, understand the 00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:52.029 pedagogical underpinnings of this whole area, 00:10:52.149 --> 00:10:56.970 because I was a novice and I instinctively felt 00:10:56.970 --> 00:11:00.389 that it was going to be very rich and it was 00:11:00.389 --> 00:11:03.779 going to enlighten me. I didn't quite appreciate 00:11:03.779 --> 00:11:09.539 how changing and how enlightening I would find 00:11:09.539 --> 00:11:13.600 it. So I did a lot of reading. I read some really 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:18.279 interesting stuff from lots of different disciplinary 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:21.539 perspectives, actually, just as you've just mentioned, 00:11:21.620 --> 00:11:25.820 Robert. So I read a lot of stuff in terms of 00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:28.720 sort of museum studies and archaeology. I also 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:32.450 read quite a lot of sociologists. I read quite 00:11:32.450 --> 00:11:36.950 a lot in the fine art disciplines and I read 00:11:36.950 --> 00:11:40.610 lots of multidisciplinary work as well. So there's 00:11:40.610 --> 00:11:44.289 a wonderful project at Harvard called Project 00:11:44.289 --> 00:11:46.330 Zero, which has been going on for a long time, 00:11:46.370 --> 00:11:49.190 which is about visual thinking. So many, many 00:11:49.190 --> 00:11:52.750 things came together to inform what I understood 00:11:52.750 --> 00:11:56.710 about why we might do it and what the benefits 00:11:56.710 --> 00:12:00.679 might be. I was also really fortunate to be able 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:03.960 to speak to a lot of people who were genuinely 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:06.679 just so knowledgeable, generous with their time, 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:09.080 just incredible experts. So people like Judy 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:11.620 Wilcox at Central Saint Martins, who's just incredibly 00:12:11.620 --> 00:12:15.220 knowledgeable and generous. The wonderful Thomas 00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:18.600 Cador at UCL. I spoke to several different people 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:23.809 in Australia. And yeah, and discussing with my 00:12:23.809 --> 00:12:26.289 colleagues here back at Leeds. So all of that, 00:12:26.289 --> 00:12:29.830 that was one big part of the project to really 00:12:29.830 --> 00:12:32.549 get to grips with what underpins this practice. 00:12:33.429 --> 00:12:36.690 And then secondly, the other big thing was to 00:12:36.690 --> 00:12:40.970 run some experimental workshops based on all 00:12:40.970 --> 00:12:43.909 of that knowledge. And I should say also, I was 00:12:43.909 --> 00:12:47.850 very lucky. Thomas Cader at UCL invited me twice 00:12:47.850 --> 00:12:52.110 to go down. to visit their laboratory facility 00:12:52.110 --> 00:12:55.230 to see some object -based learning that they 00:12:55.230 --> 00:12:57.769 do with their students, which is just incredibly 00:12:57.769 --> 00:13:01.450 inspirational. And all of that informed the experimental 00:13:01.450 --> 00:13:03.990 workshops that I ran with students. So I had 00:13:03.990 --> 00:13:05.889 several different student groups. Some of them 00:13:05.889 --> 00:13:08.029 were exclusively sociology and social policy 00:13:08.029 --> 00:13:11.389 students. And the reason behind that was that, 00:13:11.450 --> 00:13:13.570 as I say, my brilliant colleague Tom Campbell 00:13:13.570 --> 00:13:18.820 was very interested in creating a module. about 00:13:18.820 --> 00:13:22.960 objects within the discipline of sociology and 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:27.299 we wanted to use the findings from those workshops 00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:30.559 to really inform that module design and to really 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:35.519 root it in very very recent research at our institution 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.159 and so I carried out several experimental workshops 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:42.980 with different groups of students and then you 00:13:42.980 --> 00:13:45.840 know delved through all of their different responses 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.080 because they were brilliant, the students. They 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:51.220 all participated in a questionnaire activity 00:13:51.220 --> 00:13:54.379 following the workshops. And they gave me such 00:13:54.379 --> 00:13:58.700 thoughtful responses, such detailed, considered 00:13:58.700 --> 00:14:02.440 responses to the questions, which was wonderful 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:05.299 because they could have just sucked it off and 00:14:05.299 --> 00:14:09.220 sort of, you know, said quite sort of... not 00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:12.039 facetious but um you know quite limited things 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:15.879 but they were incredibly thoughtful and because 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:20.399 of that it made the outcome so much richer so 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.940 i was i was really really grateful to their sincere 00:14:22.940 --> 00:14:25.240 participation so with these questionnaires post 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.840 participation in the workshop yes is that maybe 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:32.259 indicative of how the workshop cultivates that 00:14:32.259 --> 00:14:36.960 reflective mindset yeah i mean We it might be 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.179 partly to do with the space that we were in as 00:14:39.179 --> 00:14:43.080 well. So we we took the students into the Bedford 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.419 room in special collections here at the University 00:14:45.419 --> 00:14:48.759 of Leeds. And that's a purpose built room for 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:52.080 different types of activities. But because it's 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:55.820 within special collections, we and I have to 00:14:55.820 --> 00:14:57.820 say a huge thank you to those staff as well, 00:14:57.860 --> 00:15:00.320 because they were absolutely wonderful and very, 00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:02.860 very encouraging and really enthusiastic about 00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:04.600 what I was doing as well, which was fabulous. 00:15:05.549 --> 00:15:08.809 So essentially, I selected a range of objects 00:15:08.809 --> 00:15:13.470 from their collections, which is not an easy 00:15:13.470 --> 00:15:15.730 thing to do, I have to tell you, because the 00:15:15.730 --> 00:15:19.230 amount of just fascinating things that they have, 00:15:19.269 --> 00:15:23.409 it's kind of embarrassing. And eventually, with 00:15:23.409 --> 00:15:26.269 their help, I settled on using a selection of 00:15:26.269 --> 00:15:31.190 objects which represented kind of protest. And 00:15:31.190 --> 00:15:37.000 we have a wonderful... feminist archive and so 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:39.480 I picked several items from that feminist archive 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:44.779 including this incredible enormous Barbie fabric 00:15:44.779 --> 00:15:48.919 banner for the Leeds lesbian line which I knew 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:51.440 nothing about. I still know very little about 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.700 it though I've read a brilliant book which is 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:56.299 about lesbian lines nationally within the UK. 00:15:56.539 --> 00:16:00.379 Really really interesting stuff. So these objects 00:16:00.379 --> 00:16:02.960 of protest I thought would give sufficient scope 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:05.769 for discussion. I picked things that weren't 00:16:05.769 --> 00:16:07.809 going to be potentially sort of triggering for 00:16:07.809 --> 00:16:10.409 people. So things like sexual violence were not 00:16:10.409 --> 00:16:15.289 topics that were coming up. But I obviously was 00:16:15.289 --> 00:16:17.830 careful to caveat the objects with the fact that 00:16:17.830 --> 00:16:22.370 these were a result of their time, their context, 00:16:22.629 --> 00:16:26.970 the opinions of their creators. And I also made 00:16:26.970 --> 00:16:29.470 sure that we had a variety of different types 00:16:29.470 --> 00:16:34.590 of materiality. I had a UCU armband from more 00:16:34.590 --> 00:16:37.629 recent demonstrations at Leeds. And it was particularly 00:16:37.629 --> 00:16:40.490 interesting because it was weatherproofed. So 00:16:40.490 --> 00:16:42.269 I was hoping that students might pick up on the 00:16:42.269 --> 00:16:45.730 fact that it had been adapted for conditions. 00:16:46.889 --> 00:16:49.230 But that was really fascinating because their 00:16:49.230 --> 00:16:53.049 interactions with that were confusion. They knew 00:16:53.049 --> 00:16:54.990 about the strikes because their education had 00:16:54.990 --> 00:16:57.549 been affected by them, but they didn't know what 00:16:57.549 --> 00:17:00.539 this thing was. they were really puzzled you 00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:03.080 know is it is it table decoration is it like 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:05.640 why has it got stickers on it they really really 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.279 puzzled about it so that all of that discussion 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:10.140 was really interesting and I said look you put 00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:14.740 it on your arm they went oh I see it was winter 00:17:14.740 --> 00:17:17.279 oh I see right that's why it's all plastic yes 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:21.319 that's right so yes I I had to think really carefully 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:25.230 about what I got out And the staff in special 00:17:25.230 --> 00:17:28.809 collections were absolutely incredible at suggesting 00:17:28.809 --> 00:17:33.769 things and giving their own expertise. And I 00:17:33.769 --> 00:17:38.109 genuinely think that, of course, my work in object 00:17:38.109 --> 00:17:39.730 -based learning isn't just to do with historic 00:17:39.730 --> 00:17:42.910 and rare artefacts. As you know, we can look 00:17:42.910 --> 00:17:48.069 at a tea bag. But the staff in our archives and 00:17:48.069 --> 00:17:50.569 special collections departments have... just 00:17:50.569 --> 00:17:52.529 the most incredible knowledge that we just do 00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:56.289 not tap into enough. And what were your main 00:17:56.289 --> 00:17:59.289 findings from your fellowship? If it's possible 00:17:59.289 --> 00:18:03.170 to distill this really rich and, I guess, exploratory 00:18:03.170 --> 00:18:06.690 and interpretive research methods you've used. 00:18:06.750 --> 00:18:09.190 I don't mean that to restrict your reflections, 00:18:09.250 --> 00:18:12.529 but is there an overarching kind of sort of conclusion? 00:18:13.049 --> 00:18:16.410 I mean, very much. So object -based learning 00:18:16.410 --> 00:18:22.460 works like a dream. Almost despite who is in 00:18:22.460 --> 00:18:25.460 the room, as long as people are willing to chat 00:18:25.460 --> 00:18:28.819 and participate and put ideas forward, they're 00:18:28.819 --> 00:18:30.740 going to learn something and they're going to 00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:33.900 practice some quite essential skills. So the 00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:37.140 sorts of things that I observed and that came 00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:41.079 very much out of the questionnaire results from 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:44.220 students were things like, this is really fun. 00:18:44.660 --> 00:18:47.539 This has broken down some serious social barriers. 00:18:48.299 --> 00:18:51.259 I've met people in one hour that I did not know 00:18:51.259 --> 00:18:53.119 before and within five minutes we were having 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:55.819 a really good giggle about something that we 00:18:55.819 --> 00:18:59.220 both found quite humorous or interesting. That 00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:03.380 concept of kind of joint action really motivated 00:19:03.380 --> 00:19:06.859 people to push their conversations forward. They 00:19:06.859 --> 00:19:09.220 were leaning into one another's skills, leaning 00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:11.740 into one another's knowledge. They were sharing 00:19:11.740 --> 00:19:15.819 very rich cultural capital. So one of the objects 00:19:15.819 --> 00:19:19.200 that we had was this absolutely incredible CND 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:22.519 T -shirt, I think from the 80s. And it has a 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:26.599 black cat kind of scratching through a kind of 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:29.960 nuclear disarmament logo. And two students were 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.400 having a really animated discussion about their 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:36.400 different perspectives of what a black cat symbolised. 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:38.880 Now, I don't think that that discussion would 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:41.900 have happened in many other contexts. But because 00:19:41.900 --> 00:19:43.740 of that, they then went on to talk about other 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:48.240 things. And I think that that broke down such 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:51.079 a lot of barriers. So they had two very different 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:53.539 cultural contexts in terms of their upbringing, 00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:56.180 their backgrounds, where they came from. But 00:19:56.180 --> 00:19:58.059 they came together and had a really interesting 00:19:58.059 --> 00:20:01.299 discussion about this, this thing that was puzzling. 00:20:01.769 --> 00:20:04.309 There was also a really distinctive emotional 00:20:04.309 --> 00:20:08.829 impact that a lot of the objects had. And this 00:20:08.829 --> 00:20:10.849 is something that I think is really super interesting 00:20:10.849 --> 00:20:15.049 and it's worthy of further investigation because 00:20:15.049 --> 00:20:19.009 there is clearly a link between the emotional 00:20:19.009 --> 00:20:23.589 impact that objects have and your engagement 00:20:23.589 --> 00:20:26.390 with them. So I think it's something to do with 00:20:26.390 --> 00:20:29.900 attention and also to do with unpicking. what 00:20:29.900 --> 00:20:32.619 other people think about them, but I don't fully 00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:37.319 understand it and I really want to. I think connected 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:41.920 to all of this is the sort of democratising effect 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:46.539 of using an object. We could both sit and look 00:20:46.539 --> 00:20:49.480 at the coffee cup that I've got in front of me 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:51.859 and we could make observations about it and have 00:20:51.859 --> 00:20:54.200 a discussion about it and neither of us would 00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:59.640 be wrong. It's not about who is cleverer than 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:03.539 who. It's not about I'm going to get a first 00:21:03.539 --> 00:21:05.779 and you're not going to get a first. Not that 00:21:05.779 --> 00:21:07.940 I think our students think in those particular 00:21:07.940 --> 00:21:11.339 ways. But there is something that very much breaks 00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:14.859 down barriers also between facilitators, academic 00:21:14.859 --> 00:21:19.059 staff and students as well. That putting an object 00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:24.099 in front of us all makes us curious. And that... 00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.400 seems to me to be a really valuable aspect of 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:29.680 this because we can change the teaching dynamic. 00:21:29.819 --> 00:21:34.519 We can move away from the didactic norm and we 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:39.119 can introduce this much more sort of fluid dynamic 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:44.400 which really is accented by our abilities to 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:47.319 listen actively. And active listening is something 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:49.279 that I became very, very interested in during 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.470 the pandemic and I feel that it's... deepened 00:21:52.470 --> 00:21:54.569 my understanding of object -based learning having 00:21:54.569 --> 00:21:58.369 an interest in active listening so there's there's 00:21:58.369 --> 00:22:02.349 a lot to celebrate definitely i really enjoyed 00:22:02.349 --> 00:22:04.849 listening to your reflections there angela feels 00:22:04.849 --> 00:22:07.049 as if this is circling back around to some of 00:22:07.049 --> 00:22:09.589 the challenges post -covid for example that you 00:22:09.589 --> 00:22:12.269 cited at the beginning yeah you know emotionality 00:22:12.269 --> 00:22:15.910 and that having that emotional resonance partnership 00:22:15.910 --> 00:22:19.130 you described just then They sort of come together 00:22:19.130 --> 00:22:22.049 to create learning experiences that transcend 00:22:22.049 --> 00:22:24.329 learning about a discipline or a body of knowledge 00:22:24.329 --> 00:22:27.890 into relations. Yes. You say the democratising 00:22:27.890 --> 00:22:30.109 effect of using objects. I also think it's wonderfully 00:22:30.109 --> 00:22:33.730 accessible. As you say, if you're teaching a 00:22:33.730 --> 00:22:35.890 subject and you're an expert in the area and 00:22:35.890 --> 00:22:38.069 you've got a whole bunch of students that might 00:22:38.069 --> 00:22:42.910 be new to thinking about a theory or just working 00:22:42.910 --> 00:22:46.369 in that context with an academic. feels like 00:22:46.369 --> 00:22:49.009 using an everyday object is a way in which you 00:22:49.009 --> 00:22:51.650 can reflect together in a way that's less perhaps 00:22:51.650 --> 00:22:54.190 hierarchical as more accessible entry points 00:22:54.190 --> 00:22:56.750 yes it absolutely does and i think it's also 00:22:56.750 --> 00:22:59.089 worth saying that this is this is something that 00:22:59.089 --> 00:23:01.789 you can use at any level of study i think within 00:23:01.789 --> 00:23:05.549 with with great impact the the caveat that i 00:23:05.549 --> 00:23:10.420 would always give is that if you overload students 00:23:10.420 --> 00:23:15.180 with this kind of experience, it may start to 00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:19.680 lose its impact and power. I'm not 100 % firm 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:22.779 on that opinion, but you do have to think carefully 00:23:22.779 --> 00:23:26.039 about how you situate it. So the module that 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.420 I work with Tom Campbell on, the Sociology of 00:23:28.420 --> 00:23:31.420 Objects, is actually a third year module. And 00:23:31.420 --> 00:23:34.380 initially I was a little disappointed that it 00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:36.380 wasn't a second year module because I said, oh, 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:38.559 but you know, we could... We could get students 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:41.119 thinking about this for their dissertations and 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.299 it might lead into these really exciting projects. 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:46.480 But actually having run the module for the first 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:51.779 time in 24 -25, what I then realised is actually 00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:56.299 third year is possibly a perfect time to run 00:23:56.299 --> 00:23:58.599 this specific module because those students are 00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:02.599 bringing all of their previous accumulated knowledge 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:06.500 and understanding into a really reflective space. 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:10.980 where they can utilise their disciplinary understandings 00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:13.220 in a way that I don't think they could have done 00:24:13.220 --> 00:24:16.500 a year previously. So in actual fact, you know, 00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:18.880 you could use this with first year or foundation 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.539 level students. I spent some time with Lifelong 00:24:22.539 --> 00:24:24.660 Learning recently who had a group of students 00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:27.700 and we, you know, poor things, I inflicted some 00:24:27.700 --> 00:24:30.660 taxidermy on them. But gosh, that was a conversation 00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:34.119 starter. So you can do this at any level of study, 00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:35.920 but you have to think really carefully about 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:39.640 how you scaffold it, how you want it to, you 00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:42.619 know, what outcomes do you want? There's a craft 00:24:42.619 --> 00:24:44.740 that needs to be developed and honed. Absolutely. 00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:47.579 The intention has to be there, but also the skill 00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:50.000 to kind of develop it and reflect on your practice. 00:24:50.299 --> 00:24:54.220 It's very much that you need to think about running 00:24:54.220 --> 00:24:58.329 this as guided discourse. rather than I am the 00:24:58.329 --> 00:25:00.589 expert and I am going to give you a lecture about 00:25:00.589 --> 00:25:01.970 this object. I'm not saying there's anything 00:25:01.970 --> 00:25:03.910 wrong with that, but that's not for me. That's 00:25:03.910 --> 00:25:06.230 not object based learning. For me, that's a lecture 00:25:06.230 --> 00:25:09.990 with materiality. Before we go on to sort of 00:25:09.990 --> 00:25:12.190 going forwards and the kind of changes you'd 00:25:12.190 --> 00:25:16.349 like to see made or occur. And I'm thinking back 00:25:16.349 --> 00:25:19.250 to Paul Ashwin's fantastic 2024 Student Education 00:25:19.250 --> 00:25:22.930 Conference keynote. How important is it for you 00:25:22.930 --> 00:25:27.140 to explain to students? Yes, it's a democratised 00:25:27.140 --> 00:25:29.380 form of learning, but the outset to explain why 00:25:29.380 --> 00:25:33.279 you've adopted this approach. I do think that 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:36.539 there is a real value in that. I was very explicit 00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:39.359 about the fact that this was a different thing. 00:25:39.619 --> 00:25:42.059 And actually, in some of the feedback, the students 00:25:42.059 --> 00:25:44.940 were saying, I'm so excited that the university 00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:48.079 thinks about teaching in this way. And they were 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:52.279 really sincere in saying, I love the fact that 00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:54.359 you're experimenting with teaching techniques. 00:25:55.099 --> 00:25:57.460 That wasn't a response I was expecting at all. 00:25:58.099 --> 00:26:03.500 So it always pays to really pay attention to 00:26:03.500 --> 00:26:06.539 what our students say in that respect. I think 00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:09.259 in the sociology of objects module I mentioned 00:26:09.259 --> 00:26:13.039 previously, we've also been quite clear with 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:14.660 students that they're going to do things that 00:26:14.660 --> 00:26:18.359 are not the norm within their discipline. So 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.839 when we take them, for example, on a field trip 00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:24.480 to the Discovery Centre. which is the warehouse 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:29.200 for Leeds museums. And they walk in the door 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:33.059 and it's literally a warehouse full of the insane 00:26:33.059 --> 00:26:35.940 history of Leeds. There is, you know, there's 00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:40.980 a hippo taxidermy. There's a bear standing in 00:26:40.980 --> 00:26:43.759 a Victorian shower cubicle. There's a butcher's 00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:49.220 block from Hull from the 1700s. And they're faced 00:26:49.220 --> 00:26:53.259 with... a really unusual learning situation. 00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:57.680 And to be able to say, this is going to be really 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:01.339 different. You've got to engage your senses, 00:27:01.420 --> 00:27:03.660 which you can't help but do when you're in an 00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:07.160 environment like that. And we want you to basically 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:11.640 just be curious. And actually, last year when 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.700 we did take the students to the Discovery Centre, 00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:17.259 they basically ran that session with their questions. 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:20.490 So we had a wonderful guide. who took us around 00:27:20.490 --> 00:27:23.349 the storehouse, and the students were just saying, 00:27:23.470 --> 00:27:28.269 what do you do when this piece of taxidermy, 00:27:28.269 --> 00:27:30.890 this antelope, falls to bits? Do you just put 00:27:30.890 --> 00:27:34.009 it in the bin? What's the rationale for that? 00:27:34.269 --> 00:27:37.809 How do you collect new items? What's your criteria 00:27:37.809 --> 00:27:40.210 for that? Why have you got this big bunch of 00:27:40.210 --> 00:27:43.349 chairs over here? They just led the whole thing 00:27:43.349 --> 00:27:47.890 with their questions, and they were as... you 00:27:47.890 --> 00:27:49.950 know, you would expect from, you know, we both 00:27:49.950 --> 00:27:52.029 think sociology is a very important discipline. 00:27:53.049 --> 00:27:55.150 As you would expect, they were talking a lot 00:27:55.150 --> 00:27:58.170 about ethics and they were really thinking carefully 00:27:58.170 --> 00:28:02.890 about how this stuff is relevant to their discipline. 00:28:03.930 --> 00:28:06.789 Fantastic. And going forwards then, what sorts 00:28:06.789 --> 00:28:08.809 of changes would you like to see? And feel free 00:28:08.809 --> 00:28:11.809 to answer this at any level of scale. Yeah, absolutely. 00:28:12.230 --> 00:28:15.410 I mean, so things that I'm specifically working 00:28:15.410 --> 00:28:19.839 on right now. And I'm working on creating a national 00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:22.180 network for object based learning, which which 00:28:22.180 --> 00:28:24.680 does not currently exist. I'll have a symposium 00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:27.099 coming up in June for that. And we're going to 00:28:27.099 --> 00:28:31.039 try and build a proper sort of connected network 00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:33.400 for that. That's definitely something that has 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:35.240 to happen. I want to do the same at Leeds. So 00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:37.480 we have a local network and we can meet regularly, 00:28:37.619 --> 00:28:40.140 share really good practice and be a community. 00:28:40.980 --> 00:28:44.200 I think more generally experiential learning. 00:28:44.910 --> 00:28:48.029 is something that I want to see more of in our 00:28:48.029 --> 00:28:51.349 curriculum, in our university curriculars, you 00:28:51.349 --> 00:28:53.430 know, not just at Leeds, but in other places 00:28:53.430 --> 00:28:55.829 as well. There's some wonderful, wonderful things 00:28:55.829 --> 00:28:58.930 going on here at Leeds. You know, there are lots 00:28:58.930 --> 00:29:02.529 of things that you would expect to be experiential 00:29:02.529 --> 00:29:05.970 in certain curricula, like our fashion students, 00:29:06.309 --> 00:29:09.809 deconstructing garments and things like that. 00:29:09.849 --> 00:29:12.730 It's all experiential learning. But then also 00:29:12.730 --> 00:29:15.329 I know of someone who's working with brilliant 00:29:15.329 --> 00:29:17.970 social work students who's trying to create a 00:29:17.970 --> 00:29:20.990 kind of interactive hoarding experience for them 00:29:20.990 --> 00:29:23.170 so that you really get a sense of what it might 00:29:23.170 --> 00:29:25.269 be like to go into somebody's house where there 00:29:25.269 --> 00:29:28.049 is a hoarding issue. Those kind of things I think 00:29:28.049 --> 00:29:30.569 are incredibly creative and engaging responses 00:29:30.569 --> 00:29:35.269 to really intellectual but also very practical 00:29:35.269 --> 00:29:38.690 issues. So I would love to see experiential learning 00:29:38.690 --> 00:29:43.089 just... you know, making a huge impact. I also 00:29:43.089 --> 00:29:46.710 think that the element of active listening is 00:29:46.710 --> 00:29:51.109 just so important. It reaffirms for me more than 00:29:51.109 --> 00:29:54.690 ever that active listening is such an important 00:29:54.690 --> 00:29:57.990 part of creating communities, creating healthy 00:29:57.990 --> 00:30:01.950 democracies, you know, at a really high level 00:30:01.950 --> 00:30:05.519 combating fascism. you know, some very worrying 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.759 things happening across the world right now. 00:30:07.900 --> 00:30:11.559 And if we don't listen, this is the result. But 00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:13.599 also, I think all of the things that I've talked 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:16.619 about have critical thinking at their heart as 00:30:16.619 --> 00:30:20.900 well. And I know a lot of people, maybe on the 00:30:20.900 --> 00:30:23.119 far right, would say that they do think critically. 00:30:23.480 --> 00:30:25.839 But I think that if they engaged in a session 00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:30.119 like some of those that I've been involved with, 00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:32.430 they would have a very different... understanding 00:30:32.430 --> 00:30:35.970 of what criticality actually means and that you 00:30:35.970 --> 00:30:39.269 cannot just pick the evidence that fits your 00:30:39.269 --> 00:30:41.829 worldview. You need to be able to actually engage 00:30:41.829 --> 00:30:45.109 with, in this case, an object and understand 00:30:45.109 --> 00:30:48.589 what it really tells you about the way the world 00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:51.710 works or has worked. Something we're talking 00:30:51.710 --> 00:30:54.069 about at the minute at Light, because we have 00:30:54.069 --> 00:30:55.390 a few colleagues who are really interested in 00:30:55.390 --> 00:30:57.809 this and Light fellows, such as I imagine yourself, 00:30:58.210 --> 00:31:01.750 is reflexivity. Because there's always that interaction 00:31:01.750 --> 00:31:03.730 between, in this case, the object you're looking 00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:06.349 at and yourself. And when you were talking there, 00:31:06.470 --> 00:31:08.730 it struck me that object -based learning can 00:31:08.730 --> 00:31:11.910 be quite a vulnerable experience in a good kind 00:31:11.910 --> 00:31:14.690 of way because you are allowing yourself to be 00:31:14.690 --> 00:31:16.970 challenged. You're allowing yourself to see something 00:31:16.970 --> 00:31:20.470 you've seen previously in a different way. Yes. 00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:23.009 And that might disappoint or upset you or it 00:31:23.009 --> 00:31:25.430 might make you challenge what you previously 00:31:25.430 --> 00:31:29.829 believed. Or... Indeed, mostly, as I've discovered, 00:31:29.910 --> 00:31:33.990 be utterly revelatory and it can connect people 00:31:33.990 --> 00:31:39.589 in a really exciting way. So I'll just give you 00:31:39.589 --> 00:31:43.589 a quick example in the sociology of objects. 00:31:43.869 --> 00:31:46.369 And this is something that lots of modules do, 00:31:46.450 --> 00:31:48.670 actually, in many different disciplines and in 00:31:48.670 --> 00:31:51.890 many universities. So you invite students to 00:31:51.890 --> 00:31:54.329 bring an object that they think is significant. 00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:57.039 And some people will rock up with nothing and 00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:59.039 just pull something out of their bag. Absolutely 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:01.299 fine. And that can be fascinating in itself. 00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:04.839 A charging cable. You know, my laptop died this 00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:07.880 morning and I was desperate to find a plug. I 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:10.640 needed a plug. I literally needed connectivity. 00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:13.880 I needed to connect my laptop with a network. 00:32:14.579 --> 00:32:18.839 And without that, I was lost. However, some students 00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:23.319 will also bring incredibly rare and precious 00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:26.829 objects. So the example I'm going to give you 00:32:26.829 --> 00:32:29.710 is of a student who came to one of the seminars. 00:32:29.769 --> 00:32:31.829 I wasn't there. I wish I'd been there, but I 00:32:31.829 --> 00:32:33.269 think I would have just been a blubbering mess. 00:32:33.890 --> 00:32:37.190 And she came along with a lock of her own hair, 00:32:37.369 --> 00:32:40.609 which she had cut off for her son before she 00:32:40.609 --> 00:32:44.890 started cancer treatment. So I imagine the impact 00:32:44.890 --> 00:32:50.250 of that within the room was pretty hefty because 00:32:50.250 --> 00:32:52.509 they were, yes, they were being very vulnerable. 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:56.359 in a reasonably public sphere, but they also 00:32:56.359 --> 00:32:58.839 felt that they could trust the other people in 00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:03.180 the room and the facilitator to treat that object 00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:07.079 and treat her emotions with incredible respect. 00:33:07.539 --> 00:33:11.700 So that for me is an act of hope and that is 00:33:11.700 --> 00:33:16.859 an act of trust and it's ultimately very humane 00:33:16.859 --> 00:33:20.039 and the fact that that became something that 00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:24.799 we reflected on quite a lot. It became highly 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:30.000 significant and symbolic of the fact that universities, 00:33:30.019 --> 00:33:33.220 I think, can allow you to make those connections 00:33:33.220 --> 00:33:36.420 in an intellectual space as well as an emotional 00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:40.599 space. Brilliant. Let's imagine I'm an academic 00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:42.759 working in a discipline that's not sociology. 00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:46.099 Can I reinterpret object -based learning into 00:33:46.099 --> 00:33:47.980 my own practice? I think I know the answer to 00:33:47.980 --> 00:33:50.700 this. And then secondly, what outputs do you 00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:52.700 have available? stemming from your fellowship 00:33:52.700 --> 00:33:55.839 that i can use to inform my work yeah yeah so 00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:58.119 absolutely yes object -based learning is something 00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:02.160 that can be used in many many disciplines it's 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:06.440 obviously it has roots in some specific disciplines 00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:10.500 you know fine art and museology history archaeology 00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:14.400 those kinds of things however i met wonderful 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:17.519 people in the course of my research who were 00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:20.420 doing things in very different disciplines so 00:34:20.420 --> 00:34:22.610 there's a Great. I can't remember his name, which 00:34:22.610 --> 00:34:24.889 is very embarrassing. It's a great guy who works 00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:28.849 at Sheffield Hallam University who 3D prints 00:34:28.849 --> 00:34:31.889 things like protein, like different proteins, 00:34:32.190 --> 00:34:35.690 and then distributes them in his lecture theatres. 00:34:35.769 --> 00:34:38.570 So these are things which actually, you know, 00:34:38.570 --> 00:34:41.070 they're too small for you to interact with. So 00:34:41.070 --> 00:34:43.909 his solution is object -based learning, which 00:34:43.909 --> 00:34:47.590 allows students to literally see how such things 00:34:47.590 --> 00:34:51.050 work. And to literally feel them as well. So, 00:34:51.110 --> 00:34:54.349 yeah, there are loads of really brilliant, unexpected 00:34:54.349 --> 00:34:56.889 examples where you might be able to use object 00:34:56.889 --> 00:34:59.309 based learning really successfully. And it doesn't 00:34:59.309 --> 00:35:01.409 have to be an in -person experience either. You 00:35:01.409 --> 00:35:04.909 can do it online. In terms of sort of outputs, 00:35:05.349 --> 00:35:08.190 obviously, my report is on the Light website. 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:13.480 I also recently did an episode of the L &T chat 00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:17.380 show with Tom Campbell. That's series five of 00:35:17.380 --> 00:35:20.260 the L &T chat show. So that's hopefully quite 00:35:20.260 --> 00:35:23.420 a fun lesson. We do a lot of reflection. I've 00:35:23.420 --> 00:35:26.380 got a journal article which is about to be submitted, 00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:29.769 which is a full write up of the research. There 00:35:29.769 --> 00:35:32.010 are two articles now on the European Teaching 00:35:32.010 --> 00:35:35.269 with Objects website, one about playful learning 00:35:35.269 --> 00:35:39.530 with objects and another that, again, I wrote 00:35:39.530 --> 00:35:42.469 with Tom Campbell. We've got, I mean, God, the 00:35:42.469 --> 00:35:44.309 list is really embarrassing. Just looking at 00:35:44.309 --> 00:35:48.510 your light report slash snapshot now and there's 00:35:48.510 --> 00:35:50.250 loads of great stuff in there. Perhaps we can 00:35:50.250 --> 00:35:52.409 link those two articles into that. Yes, absolutely. 00:35:53.429 --> 00:35:56.369 There's just a lot. And the padlets as well. 00:35:56.949 --> 00:36:01.230 Yes, I created three padlets, which are designed 00:36:01.230 --> 00:36:03.750 to be very, very practical for somebody who wants 00:36:03.750 --> 00:36:07.530 to find out more, who wants to do this in practice 00:36:07.530 --> 00:36:10.570 with their students. Brilliant. I've got two 00:36:10.570 --> 00:36:14.090 more questions and then I'll let you go. Firstly, 00:36:14.309 --> 00:36:17.570 what advice would you have for anyone considering 00:36:17.570 --> 00:36:20.309 a pedagogical research project, perhaps in the 00:36:20.309 --> 00:36:22.849 form of a light fellowship? And is there anything 00:36:22.849 --> 00:36:25.639 that you might have done differently? Yeah, so 00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:29.019 I think you do have to begin with the reading. 00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:31.559 I think it's great to throw ideas around with 00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.940 other people, but you have to root it in what 00:36:34.940 --> 00:36:38.659 the literature is telling you or not telling 00:36:38.659 --> 00:36:43.059 you. And so I think certainly for me, I began 00:36:43.059 --> 00:36:45.800 with, yes, some really interesting ideas and 00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:48.840 conversations with other people, but it became 00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:52.480 more realistic when I started to do the reading. 00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.119 So the more reading I did, the more confident 00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:58.239 I became in the concepts that I was proposing 00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:02.539 to deal with. So that for me is the kind of route, 00:37:02.699 --> 00:37:06.980 really. I think some things obviously don't quite 00:37:06.980 --> 00:37:10.360 go as you expect. So my big problem was an IT 00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:14.820 problem. So my ethical approval really went sideways 00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:17.199 just as I was about to submit it because there 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:19.880 was a technical issue. So some things go wrong. 00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:22.340 It's always good to build in some slack time 00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:24.739 for problems. And the other really great advice 00:37:24.739 --> 00:37:28.820 that I've got is if you are doing a light project, 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:33.219 just bother the person who's going to help you 00:37:33.219 --> 00:37:37.460 in light as much as you can. So just looking 00:37:37.460 --> 00:37:41.420 at you over the table, Robert, I've thanked a 00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:43.480 lot of people, but I have to thank you massively. 00:37:43.539 --> 00:37:45.940 That's too kind. Because you are so, so supportive 00:37:45.940 --> 00:37:50.079 and continue to be so. And I'd give you a gigantic 00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:55.059 pay rise. I use that as evidence. Absolutely. 00:37:55.500 --> 00:37:59.840 And last but not least, what next for you? So 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:02.960 lots, just lots, really. I'm trying to pack in 00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:05.820 an awful lot in the next few months on object 00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:08.880 -based learning. I'm also doing quite a lot of 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:11.760 work on deep reading at the moment. So I'm thinking 00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.579 a lot about that in terms of Gen AI and deep 00:38:14.579 --> 00:38:18.829 reading. reading as a response to gen ai so i 00:38:18.829 --> 00:38:23.710 have um i have a bunch of really crazy unachievable 00:38:23.710 --> 00:38:27.250 plans including a couple of podcast series so 00:38:27.250 --> 00:38:30.670 uh let's see how far i get with that list that's 00:38:30.670 --> 00:38:35.550 a tantalizing kind of hook will be eagerly anticipating 00:38:35.550 --> 00:38:38.909 not one but two podcast series that's yeah I 00:38:38.909 --> 00:38:41.909 mean go big go big or go home right I don't really 00:38:41.909 --> 00:38:43.969 do things by halves it has to be said I really 00:38:43.969 --> 00:38:46.989 do if I'm interested in something I will really 00:38:46.989 --> 00:38:50.369 really try and push the boat out um because I 00:38:50.369 --> 00:38:52.030 can't do it any other way it's just the way I 00:38:52.030 --> 00:38:54.530 am yeah no one would want to quell your passion 00:38:54.530 --> 00:38:59.070 yeah well in that case then um thank you so much 00:38:59.070 --> 00:39:02.079 for your time today recording this podcast angela 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:04.840 to return the favor thanks for all the time and 00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:07.059 energy you've spent working on your light fellowship 00:39:07.059 --> 00:39:10.039 and i know you do it for yourself but we also 00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:11.900 really appreciate what you've given to light 00:39:11.900 --> 00:39:14.619 and the light community as well for things like 00:39:14.619 --> 00:39:17.059 the spotlight workshop um that you did which 00:39:17.059 --> 00:39:20.840 was amazing and please you know keep in touch 00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:24.409 and we look forward to hearing about all the 00:39:24.409 --> 00:39:26.269 upcoming workshops and events that you're involved 00:39:26.269 --> 00:39:29.489 with, and this definite podcast, double podcast 00:39:29.489 --> 00:39:32.829 series that's going to be on the horizon. Thanks, 00:39:33.050 --> 00:39:36.949 everybody, for listening. We'll link in any resources 00:39:36.949 --> 00:39:39.750 mentioned in this episode in the show notes. 00:39:40.170 --> 00:39:43.090 But I'm sure Angela will be happy if you reached 00:39:43.090 --> 00:39:47.429 out to her with any questions or ideas and so 00:39:47.429 --> 00:39:50.489 on. Fantastic. Great. Okay. Thanks for listening 00:39:50.489 --> 00:39:52.849 and we'll see you in the next episode. Bye for 00:39:52.849 --> 00:39:53.010 now.