Welcome to Light Bites, an occasional podcast
from Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence
at the University of Leeds. Episodes will be
hosted by members of the Light team. And we'll
be showcasing the scholarship of teaching and
learning from across the university. Hello, you're
listening to Light Bites. I'm Robert Averys from
the Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence.
I'm joined today by Light Fellow Angela Newton.
Morning, Angela. Hello. I'm very well, thank
you. Thank you for inviting me. I'm very excited.
You're more than welcome. So perhaps to kick
things off, you could tell listeners a little
bit about what you do at the University of Leeds.
Yeah, yeah, that's right. So I'm a learning advisor
with the learning development team. That's part
of the library service here at Leeds. And we're
responsible for the skills at library service,
which faces students. So my particular job, I
work directly with law and sociology and social
policy. I work particularly with the academic
staff to sort of design really good learning
and teaching activities, particularly around
academic literacies. So things like writing,
deep reading. We're thinking a lot about AI,
of course, at the moment. And I work directly
with students as well, which is always just one
of the most rewarding things I can do. Brilliant.
Thanks for that introduction. A good question
to start with would be what first got you into
pedagogical research? What motivated you to apply
for your fellowship? I think there was just a
sort of increasing sense for me that there were
some quite exciting ideas that could be tapped
into, but I needed to know a lot more about them.
So, for example. One of the things that really
very directly led me to this is I was working
with one of my fantastic colleagues, Bethany
Robertson, in sociology and social policy. And
we were designing some learning for some first
year students. And when we ran it with students,
there was such an interesting reaction from them.
There was such enthusiasm and they joined in
so wholeheartedly and authentically that I thought
we have to tap into this. We have to understand
more about this. And the thing that we were doing
was we'd be using some magazine covers from Cosmopolitan
magazine. So we had one from the 90s. We had
one sort of contemporary cover. And we were asking
students to try and engage in critical thinking
by comparing the two, first analysing each one
and then making some comparisons. And the...
the reaction from the students was really interesting
and they were very excited to do this. So I wanted
to dig into that and find out a lot more about
what that was. And then simultaneously I was
having discussions with the then Director for
Student Education, Tom Campbell. I have to name
check Tom a lot because he's absolutely fundamental
to this. He's been incredibly supportive. And
we both had a very strong interest in reading
in libraries. Obviously, I trained as an academic
librarian. So this is just in me. It has to have
outlets. And we started talking about this idea
of using objects. And I think at some point I
Googled the term object based learning and went,
oh, this is a thing. It's a thing that we need
to understand. Fantastic. And I realise I forgot
to mention the name of your fellowship, which
is Developing Object -Based Learning at Leeds.
Could you give listeners a summary of what object
-based learning is all about? Yeah. So with object
-based learning, and this is it's not a new thing.
It's not something that I've created. I've literally
just walked into a discussion that was already
happening, essentially, but with enormous enthusiasm.
What object -based learning does is it allows
you to start conversations with students or indeed
research, whereby you use objects as the stimulus
rather than text. Or you might use the two together.
So, for example, you could run with, I don't
know, performance students, some sort of kind
of activity where you present them with objects.
And I was talking to the brilliant Jonathan Pitches
the other day in PCI. He was talking about dancing
with objects as a response to them and with them
and to make them part of a performance. Other
things that you can do which are slightly more
traditional might revolve around, say, archaeologists
and archaeology students interacting with things
like pottery shards. And you need to do that
many, many, many times in order to be able to
understand their context and where they came
from and many other things besides. The way in
which we're interested in using object -based
learning, and of course it happens in lots of
different contexts here at Leeds as well, is
in terms of allowing students to approach and
unfold an object within their discipline. So
within their disciplinary frameworks and bringing
all of their knowledge, we allow them to have
quite free discussions and to come up with their
own hypotheses and really explore together in
a very sort of collective way what these things
might mean. Fantastic. And I certainly experienced
that when participating in your recent spotlight
workshop on object based learning and we were
deconstructing and unpacking these really common
everyday. but we were looking at them through
a different lens. And it's really exciting for
me and I'm sure for listeners to consider how
they might use objects in their own teaching
practice or research practice and so on in different
disciplines and different contexts. We'll get
on to findings in a little bit. I think one thing
I'd be keen to ask you is we know some of the
reasons why you do object -based learning and
the kind of things it cultivates with students
in learning experiences. Why is it a particularly
relevant pedagogical approach at this moment
in time? Why do you feel it's particularly important?
Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I
think there's a lot of different answers to that.
The main ones for me are to do with, okay, we've
come out of, it feels crazy to say five years
post kind of the beginning of COVID, you know,
and it's hard to underestimate the impact that
that had. you know, in society generally, but
also on education and so many impacts. And so
we've come back, I think, to campus with a renewed
sense of, yes, what technology can do for us
and how powerful it is and how brilliant that
we can do stuff like this. We didn't even need
to be in the same room or the same continent
to have this discussion. But that also, I think,
definitely led to... for a lot of people, a feeling
of isolation. And I think higher education has
suffered from difficulty that a lot of students
have in returning to campus and live in -person
teaching. So with the kind of object -based learning
that I'm interested in, because it is so fundamental
to be in a room together, and in your case, you
were having to rely on one another's skills because
you were... unpacking a tent and putting a tent
up, albeit inside. Because we need one another
for those experiences, it combats that sense
of isolation that was definitely accelerated
in COVID. And I think because a lot of learning
is now mediated through screens, there is an
over -dependence perhaps on them. And that's
been absolutely blown... Out of all proportion
by the sort of blowout year of Gen AI last year.
So a lot of students have said to me very openly,
you know, if people say they're not using Gen
AI for their work, that they're basically lying
to you. Equally, I've met a lot of students who
say that's absolutely not the case. I'm not going
anywhere near it. So I think in terms of materiality.
Working with objects allows this multi -sensory
and in -person sort of joint action, which you
cannot replicate through things like Gen AI.
You don't need your phone if you're looking at
a fabric banner and discussing how it's made.
Because we've provided you with things like magnifying
glasses to get really close up to the detail.
So unless you wanted to, I don't know, photograph
it and then really zoom in in some sort of incredibly
detailed way, you don't really need your phone.
And that's been one of the interesting things
that I've definitely discovered in the process
of the project is that screen use during object
-based learning is almost non -existent because
there is this need to get really personal with
the thing that's in front of you. I promise listeners,
we'll come on to the research design in a second,
but just to comment further on my participation
in the workshop. One thing I found really enriching
was that, as you describe object -based learning
as a social experience, as a social practice,
when we were all looking at the same object,
we were doing it for our different lenses, both
in terms of lived experience, but also disciplinary.
So I was analysing... material through maybe
quite a sociological lens whereas I had other
colleagues who were looking at it from very different
perspectives and together we had this really
enriched understanding of how we look at it and
what it means to different people what it could
be illustrative of what it could suggest represent
and I found that really really good and reflective
so moving on Could you give listeners an overview
of your research design and how did you go about
your light fellowship? So the two sort of main
aims that I had were to, one, understand the
pedagogical underpinnings of this whole area,
because I was a novice and I instinctively felt
that it was going to be very rich and it was
going to enlighten me. I didn't quite appreciate
how changing and how enlightening I would find
it. So I did a lot of reading. I read some really
interesting stuff from lots of different disciplinary
perspectives, actually, just as you've just mentioned,
Robert. So I read a lot of stuff in terms of
sort of museum studies and archaeology. I also
read quite a lot of sociologists. I read quite
a lot in the fine art disciplines and I read
lots of multidisciplinary work as well. So there's
a wonderful project at Harvard called Project
Zero, which has been going on for a long time,
which is about visual thinking. So many, many
things came together to inform what I understood
about why we might do it and what the benefits
might be. I was also really fortunate to be able
to speak to a lot of people who were genuinely
just so knowledgeable, generous with their time,
just incredible experts. So people like Judy
Wilcox at Central Saint Martins, who's just incredibly
knowledgeable and generous. The wonderful Thomas
Cador at UCL. I spoke to several different people
in Australia. And yeah, and discussing with my
colleagues here back at Leeds. So all of that,
that was one big part of the project to really
get to grips with what underpins this practice.
And then secondly, the other big thing was to
run some experimental workshops based on all
of that knowledge. And I should say also, I was
very lucky. Thomas Cader at UCL invited me twice
to go down. to visit their laboratory facility
to see some object -based learning that they
do with their students, which is just incredibly
inspirational. And all of that informed the experimental
workshops that I ran with students. So I had
several different student groups. Some of them
were exclusively sociology and social policy
students. And the reason behind that was that,
as I say, my brilliant colleague Tom Campbell
was very interested in creating a module. about
objects within the discipline of sociology and
we wanted to use the findings from those workshops
to really inform that module design and to really
root it in very very recent research at our institution
and so I carried out several experimental workshops
with different groups of students and then you
know delved through all of their different responses
because they were brilliant, the students. They
all participated in a questionnaire activity
following the workshops. And they gave me such
thoughtful responses, such detailed, considered
responses to the questions, which was wonderful
because they could have just sucked it off and
sort of, you know, said quite sort of... not
facetious but um you know quite limited things
but they were incredibly thoughtful and because
of that it made the outcome so much richer so
i was i was really really grateful to their sincere
participation so with these questionnaires post
participation in the workshop yes is that maybe
indicative of how the workshop cultivates that
reflective mindset yeah i mean We it might be
partly to do with the space that we were in as
well. So we we took the students into the Bedford
room in special collections here at the University
of Leeds. And that's a purpose built room for
different types of activities. But because it's
within special collections, we and I have to
say a huge thank you to those staff as well,
because they were absolutely wonderful and very,
very encouraging and really enthusiastic about
what I was doing as well, which was fabulous.
So essentially, I selected a range of objects
from their collections, which is not an easy
thing to do, I have to tell you, because the
amount of just fascinating things that they have,
it's kind of embarrassing. And eventually, with
their help, I settled on using a selection of
objects which represented kind of protest. And
we have a wonderful... feminist archive and so
I picked several items from that feminist archive
including this incredible enormous Barbie fabric
banner for the Leeds lesbian line which I knew
nothing about. I still know very little about
it though I've read a brilliant book which is
about lesbian lines nationally within the UK.
Really really interesting stuff. So these objects
of protest I thought would give sufficient scope
for discussion. I picked things that weren't
going to be potentially sort of triggering for
people. So things like sexual violence were not
topics that were coming up. But I obviously was
careful to caveat the objects with the fact that
these were a result of their time, their context,
the opinions of their creators. And I also made
sure that we had a variety of different types
of materiality. I had a UCU armband from more
recent demonstrations at Leeds. And it was particularly
interesting because it was weatherproofed. So
I was hoping that students might pick up on the
fact that it had been adapted for conditions.
But that was really fascinating because their
interactions with that were confusion. They knew
about the strikes because their education had
been affected by them, but they didn't know what
this thing was. they were really puzzled you
know is it is it table decoration is it like
why has it got stickers on it they really really
puzzled about it so that all of that discussion
was really interesting and I said look you put
it on your arm they went oh I see it was winter
oh I see right that's why it's all plastic yes
that's right so yes I I had to think really carefully
about what I got out And the staff in special
collections were absolutely incredible at suggesting
things and giving their own expertise. And I
genuinely think that, of course, my work in object
-based learning isn't just to do with historic
and rare artefacts. As you know, we can look
at a tea bag. But the staff in our archives and
special collections departments have... just
the most incredible knowledge that we just do
not tap into enough. And what were your main
findings from your fellowship? If it's possible
to distill this really rich and, I guess, exploratory
and interpretive research methods you've used.
I don't mean that to restrict your reflections,
but is there an overarching kind of sort of conclusion?
I mean, very much. So object -based learning
works like a dream. Almost despite who is in
the room, as long as people are willing to chat
and participate and put ideas forward, they're
going to learn something and they're going to
practice some quite essential skills. So the
sorts of things that I observed and that came
very much out of the questionnaire results from
students were things like, this is really fun.
This has broken down some serious social barriers.
I've met people in one hour that I did not know
before and within five minutes we were having
a really good giggle about something that we
both found quite humorous or interesting. That
concept of kind of joint action really motivated
people to push their conversations forward. They
were leaning into one another's skills, leaning
into one another's knowledge. They were sharing
very rich cultural capital. So one of the objects
that we had was this absolutely incredible CND
T -shirt, I think from the 80s. And it has a
black cat kind of scratching through a kind of
nuclear disarmament logo. And two students were
having a really animated discussion about their
different perspectives of what a black cat symbolised.
Now, I don't think that that discussion would
have happened in many other contexts. But because
of that, they then went on to talk about other
things. And I think that that broke down such
a lot of barriers. So they had two very different
cultural contexts in terms of their upbringing,
their backgrounds, where they came from. But
they came together and had a really interesting
discussion about this, this thing that was puzzling.
There was also a really distinctive emotional
impact that a lot of the objects had. And this
is something that I think is really super interesting
and it's worthy of further investigation because
there is clearly a link between the emotional
impact that objects have and your engagement
with them. So I think it's something to do with
attention and also to do with unpicking. what
other people think about them, but I don't fully
understand it and I really want to. I think connected
to all of this is the sort of democratising effect
of using an object. We could both sit and look
at the coffee cup that I've got in front of me
and we could make observations about it and have
a discussion about it and neither of us would
be wrong. It's not about who is cleverer than
who. It's not about I'm going to get a first
and you're not going to get a first. Not that
I think our students think in those particular
ways. But there is something that very much breaks
down barriers also between facilitators, academic
staff and students as well. That putting an object
in front of us all makes us curious. And that...
seems to me to be a really valuable aspect of
this because we can change the teaching dynamic.
We can move away from the didactic norm and we
can introduce this much more sort of fluid dynamic
which really is accented by our abilities to
listen actively. And active listening is something
that I became very, very interested in during
the pandemic and I feel that it's... deepened
my understanding of object -based learning having
an interest in active listening so there's there's
a lot to celebrate definitely i really enjoyed
listening to your reflections there angela feels
as if this is circling back around to some of
the challenges post -covid for example that you
cited at the beginning yeah you know emotionality
and that having that emotional resonance partnership
you described just then They sort of come together
to create learning experiences that transcend
learning about a discipline or a body of knowledge
into relations. Yes. You say the democratising
effect of using objects. I also think it's wonderfully
accessible. As you say, if you're teaching a
subject and you're an expert in the area and
you've got a whole bunch of students that might
be new to thinking about a theory or just working
in that context with an academic. feels like
using an everyday object is a way in which you
can reflect together in a way that's less perhaps
hierarchical as more accessible entry points
yes it absolutely does and i think it's also
worth saying that this is this is something that
you can use at any level of study i think within
with with great impact the the caveat that i
would always give is that if you overload students
with this kind of experience, it may start to
lose its impact and power. I'm not 100 % firm
on that opinion, but you do have to think carefully
about how you situate it. So the module that
I work with Tom Campbell on, the Sociology of
Objects, is actually a third year module. And
initially I was a little disappointed that it
wasn't a second year module because I said, oh,
but you know, we could... We could get students
thinking about this for their dissertations and
it might lead into these really exciting projects.
But actually having run the module for the first
time in 24 -25, what I then realised is actually
third year is possibly a perfect time to run
this specific module because those students are
bringing all of their previous accumulated knowledge
and understanding into a really reflective space.
where they can utilise their disciplinary understandings
in a way that I don't think they could have done
a year previously. So in actual fact, you know,
you could use this with first year or foundation
level students. I spent some time with Lifelong
Learning recently who had a group of students
and we, you know, poor things, I inflicted some
taxidermy on them. But gosh, that was a conversation
starter. So you can do this at any level of study,
but you have to think really carefully about
how you scaffold it, how you want it to, you
know, what outcomes do you want? There's a craft
that needs to be developed and honed. Absolutely.
The intention has to be there, but also the skill
to kind of develop it and reflect on your practice.
It's very much that you need to think about running
this as guided discourse. rather than I am the
expert and I am going to give you a lecture about
this object. I'm not saying there's anything
wrong with that, but that's not for me. That's
not object based learning. For me, that's a lecture
with materiality. Before we go on to sort of
going forwards and the kind of changes you'd
like to see made or occur. And I'm thinking back
to Paul Ashwin's fantastic 2024 Student Education
Conference keynote. How important is it for you
to explain to students? Yes, it's a democratised
form of learning, but the outset to explain why
you've adopted this approach. I do think that
there is a real value in that. I was very explicit
about the fact that this was a different thing.
And actually, in some of the feedback, the students
were saying, I'm so excited that the university
thinks about teaching in this way. And they were
really sincere in saying, I love the fact that
you're experimenting with teaching techniques.
That wasn't a response I was expecting at all.
So it always pays to really pay attention to
what our students say in that respect. I think
in the sociology of objects module I mentioned
previously, we've also been quite clear with
students that they're going to do things that
are not the norm within their discipline. So
when we take them, for example, on a field trip
to the Discovery Centre. which is the warehouse
for Leeds museums. And they walk in the door
and it's literally a warehouse full of the insane
history of Leeds. There is, you know, there's
a hippo taxidermy. There's a bear standing in
a Victorian shower cubicle. There's a butcher's
block from Hull from the 1700s. And they're faced
with... a really unusual learning situation.
And to be able to say, this is going to be really
different. You've got to engage your senses,
which you can't help but do when you're in an
environment like that. And we want you to basically
just be curious. And actually, last year when
we did take the students to the Discovery Centre,
they basically ran that session with their questions.
So we had a wonderful guide. who took us around
the storehouse, and the students were just saying,
what do you do when this piece of taxidermy,
this antelope, falls to bits? Do you just put
it in the bin? What's the rationale for that?
How do you collect new items? What's your criteria
for that? Why have you got this big bunch of
chairs over here? They just led the whole thing
with their questions, and they were as... you
know, you would expect from, you know, we both
think sociology is a very important discipline.
As you would expect, they were talking a lot
about ethics and they were really thinking carefully
about how this stuff is relevant to their discipline.
Fantastic. And going forwards then, what sorts
of changes would you like to see? And feel free
to answer this at any level of scale. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, so things that I'm specifically working
on right now. And I'm working on creating a national
network for object based learning, which which
does not currently exist. I'll have a symposium
coming up in June for that. And we're going to
try and build a proper sort of connected network
for that. That's definitely something that has
to happen. I want to do the same at Leeds. So
we have a local network and we can meet regularly,
share really good practice and be a community.
I think more generally experiential learning.
is something that I want to see more of in our
curriculum, in our university curriculars, you
know, not just at Leeds, but in other places
as well. There's some wonderful, wonderful things
going on here at Leeds. You know, there are lots
of things that you would expect to be experiential
in certain curricula, like our fashion students,
deconstructing garments and things like that.
It's all experiential learning. But then also
I know of someone who's working with brilliant
social work students who's trying to create a
kind of interactive hoarding experience for them
so that you really get a sense of what it might
be like to go into somebody's house where there
is a hoarding issue. Those kind of things I think
are incredibly creative and engaging responses
to really intellectual but also very practical
issues. So I would love to see experiential learning
just... you know, making a huge impact. I also
think that the element of active listening is
just so important. It reaffirms for me more than
ever that active listening is such an important
part of creating communities, creating healthy
democracies, you know, at a really high level
combating fascism. you know, some very worrying
things happening across the world right now.
And if we don't listen, this is the result. But
also, I think all of the things that I've talked
about have critical thinking at their heart as
well. And I know a lot of people, maybe on the
far right, would say that they do think critically.
But I think that if they engaged in a session
like some of those that I've been involved with,
they would have a very different... understanding
of what criticality actually means and that you
cannot just pick the evidence that fits your
worldview. You need to be able to actually engage
with, in this case, an object and understand
what it really tells you about the way the world
works or has worked. Something we're talking
about at the minute at Light, because we have
a few colleagues who are really interested in
this and Light fellows, such as I imagine yourself,
is reflexivity. Because there's always that interaction
between, in this case, the object you're looking
at and yourself. And when you were talking there,
it struck me that object -based learning can
be quite a vulnerable experience in a good kind
of way because you are allowing yourself to be
challenged. You're allowing yourself to see something
you've seen previously in a different way. Yes.
And that might disappoint or upset you or it
might make you challenge what you previously
believed. Or... Indeed, mostly, as I've discovered,
be utterly revelatory and it can connect people
in a really exciting way. So I'll just give you
a quick example in the sociology of objects.
And this is something that lots of modules do,
actually, in many different disciplines and in
many universities. So you invite students to
bring an object that they think is significant.
And some people will rock up with nothing and
just pull something out of their bag. Absolutely
fine. And that can be fascinating in itself.
A charging cable. You know, my laptop died this
morning and I was desperate to find a plug. I
needed a plug. I literally needed connectivity.
I needed to connect my laptop with a network.
And without that, I was lost. However, some students
will also bring incredibly rare and precious
objects. So the example I'm going to give you
is of a student who came to one of the seminars.
I wasn't there. I wish I'd been there, but I
think I would have just been a blubbering mess.
And she came along with a lock of her own hair,
which she had cut off for her son before she
started cancer treatment. So I imagine the impact
of that within the room was pretty hefty because
they were, yes, they were being very vulnerable.
in a reasonably public sphere, but they also
felt that they could trust the other people in
the room and the facilitator to treat that object
and treat her emotions with incredible respect.
So that for me is an act of hope and that is
an act of trust and it's ultimately very humane
and the fact that that became something that
we reflected on quite a lot. It became highly
significant and symbolic of the fact that universities,
I think, can allow you to make those connections
in an intellectual space as well as an emotional
space. Brilliant. Let's imagine I'm an academic
working in a discipline that's not sociology.
Can I reinterpret object -based learning into
my own practice? I think I know the answer to
this. And then secondly, what outputs do you
have available? stemming from your fellowship
that i can use to inform my work yeah yeah so
absolutely yes object -based learning is something
that can be used in many many disciplines it's
obviously it has roots in some specific disciplines
you know fine art and museology history archaeology
those kinds of things however i met wonderful
people in the course of my research who were
doing things in very different disciplines so
there's a Great. I can't remember his name, which
is very embarrassing. It's a great guy who works
at Sheffield Hallam University who 3D prints
things like protein, like different proteins,
and then distributes them in his lecture theatres.
So these are things which actually, you know,
they're too small for you to interact with. So
his solution is object -based learning, which
allows students to literally see how such things
work. And to literally feel them as well. So,
yeah, there are loads of really brilliant, unexpected
examples where you might be able to use object
based learning really successfully. And it doesn't
have to be an in -person experience either. You
can do it online. In terms of sort of outputs,
obviously, my report is on the Light website.
I also recently did an episode of the L &T chat
show with Tom Campbell. That's series five of
the L &T chat show. So that's hopefully quite
a fun lesson. We do a lot of reflection. I've
got a journal article which is about to be submitted,
which is a full write up of the research. There
are two articles now on the European Teaching
with Objects website, one about playful learning
with objects and another that, again, I wrote
with Tom Campbell. We've got, I mean, God, the
list is really embarrassing. Just looking at
your light report slash snapshot now and there's
loads of great stuff in there. Perhaps we can
link those two articles into that. Yes, absolutely.
There's just a lot. And the padlets as well.
Yes, I created three padlets, which are designed
to be very, very practical for somebody who wants
to find out more, who wants to do this in practice
with their students. Brilliant. I've got two
more questions and then I'll let you go. Firstly,
what advice would you have for anyone considering
a pedagogical research project, perhaps in the
form of a light fellowship? And is there anything
that you might have done differently? Yeah, so
I think you do have to begin with the reading.
I think it's great to throw ideas around with
other people, but you have to root it in what
the literature is telling you or not telling
you. And so I think certainly for me, I began
with, yes, some really interesting ideas and
conversations with other people, but it became
more realistic when I started to do the reading.
So the more reading I did, the more confident
I became in the concepts that I was proposing
to deal with. So that for me is the kind of route,
really. I think some things obviously don't quite
go as you expect. So my big problem was an IT
problem. So my ethical approval really went sideways
just as I was about to submit it because there
was a technical issue. So some things go wrong.
It's always good to build in some slack time
for problems. And the other really great advice
that I've got is if you are doing a light project,
just bother the person who's going to help you
in light as much as you can. So just looking
at you over the table, Robert, I've thanked a
lot of people, but I have to thank you massively.
That's too kind. Because you are so, so supportive
and continue to be so. And I'd give you a gigantic
pay rise. I use that as evidence. Absolutely.
And last but not least, what next for you? So
lots, just lots, really. I'm trying to pack in
an awful lot in the next few months on object
-based learning. I'm also doing quite a lot of
work on deep reading at the moment. So I'm thinking
a lot about that in terms of Gen AI and deep
reading. reading as a response to gen ai so i
have um i have a bunch of really crazy unachievable
plans including a couple of podcast series so
uh let's see how far i get with that list that's
a tantalizing kind of hook will be eagerly anticipating
not one but two podcast series that's yeah I
mean go big go big or go home right I don't really
do things by halves it has to be said I really
do if I'm interested in something I will really
really try and push the boat out um because I
can't do it any other way it's just the way I
am yeah no one would want to quell your passion
yeah well in that case then um thank you so much
for your time today recording this podcast angela
to return the favor thanks for all the time and
energy you've spent working on your light fellowship
and i know you do it for yourself but we also
really appreciate what you've given to light
and the light community as well for things like
the spotlight workshop um that you did which
was amazing and please you know keep in touch
and we look forward to hearing about all the
upcoming workshops and events that you're involved
with, and this definite podcast, double podcast
series that's going to be on the horizon. Thanks,
everybody, for listening. We'll link in any resources
mentioned in this episode in the show notes.
But I'm sure Angela will be happy if you reached
out to her with any questions or ideas and so
on. Fantastic. Great. Okay. Thanks for listening
and we'll see you in the next episode. Bye for
now.