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Welcome to LITE Bites, an occasional podcast from Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence

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at the University of Leeds.

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Episodes will be hosted by members of the LITE team.

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And we'll be showcasing the scholarship of teaching and learning from across the university.

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Hello and welcome to another episode of the LITE Bites podcast.

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It's Emma Peasland here, Research and Impact Officer in LITE at the University of Leeds.

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And today I'm joined by Dr. Gillian Proctor, who is nearing the end of a LITE Fellowship,

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which is called Authenticity and Connection Online.

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And it looks at the psychology of online learning.

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So hi Gillian, how are you?

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I'm good.

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Excellent.

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I'm glad to have you here on the podcast today.

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Thank you.

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And we're going to have a bit of a conversation today about your fellowship experience and

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the research that you've done and the findings and you're drawing close to the end of your

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fellowship at the moment.

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And you've produced some kind of outputs and reports and things like that, which people

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will be able to find and we can link to in the description for this podcast.

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But yeah, I wondered if you might like to start our conversation by telling us a little

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bit about your fellowship and your research and what it was that you wanted to investigate.

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OK, so this all started during Covid and I was and still am a lecturer in counseling

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and psychotherapy.

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And as with everybody, when Covid arise, arose and when Covid arrived, everybody in the university

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moved to online teaching just overnight.

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And this was a real challenge for counseling and psychotherapy because all of our teaching

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was experiential group work and all about student engagement.

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And none of us really had any experience of teaching online.

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But it was it was a really interesting challenge.

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And during that first lockdown, I worked quite closely with a colleague of mine, Krista Suessman

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in Austria, who was also working with counseling groups, clients and individuals online and

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thinking a lot about the psychology of how we relate online and how that's different

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from relating in person.

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And we talked a lot about this and she wrote a paper about the paradoxes of relating psychologically

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online.

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And I wanted to think much more deeply about how this related to teaching and learning

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and what this meant for our ability to be able to use active learning and student engagement

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online.

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So I developed a research proposal and on my second attempt to try and get some fellowship

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funding, having liaised much more closely and consulted with people around the university

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about how this fitted into lots of groups and streams.

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And I was successful in getting the fellowship.

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Great.

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And you had a really kind of interesting method that you proposed and then used to collect

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your data.

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Yeah, could you tell us a little bit about how you tackled your fellowship?

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Yeah, it was, I mean, it was really fortuitous, really, in a sense, the COVID context, because

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everybody immediately then had the experience of either teaching or learning online in the

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university context.

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And I wanted to recognize the range of that experience and use it.

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So I wanted to find a methodology that acknowledged that the people, the participants would also

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be experienced people in the thing that I was looking at and to use some kind of democratic

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methodology that didn't see me as the expert with the only agenda, but wanted, you know,

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everybody involved to be part of it.

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So I used participatory action research and developed or put together two groups, one

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for educators and one for students.

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And how many people did you have in each of those groups?

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Well, that was interesting.

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The aim was to get 10 in each group.

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And I anticipated I'd really have a problem getting the educators because everybody was

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so hard pressed and busy.

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In the event, I had about 13 in the educators group and getting a group of students was

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much harder.

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Even though we had vouchers to pay students for their time.

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And so we had an average of about six students each time, I think.

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And was it the same people every time?

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No, it was from a larger pool.

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The educators were more or less the same people each time.

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The students was a pool of about 10 for which an average of six came each time.

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Okay, cool.

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So that's interesting.

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So I guess that you got perhaps a little bit of a community as people got to know each

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other as they popped up in the same times.

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And in fact, actually, I mean, I know a little bit about this study, but how often did the

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groups meet?

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How frequently and how long did they meet for?

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We met six times over a period of about probably eight months in the end.

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I think some of the one of the groups was cancelled, at least due to strikes.

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I think there might have been another cancelled for some reason.

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And so it was supposed to be monthly originally, and it took us about eight months.

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And each time we met, it was for two hours.

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And I'd love to hear a little bit about what happened in each of those two hour groups.

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Okay.

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I think you're right about the idea of a community developing certainly within the staff group

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that was more stable in terms of who attended.

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I think people got to know each other better during the time and it became easier, I guess.

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The same with the student group to some extent.

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I think after about the third group, that became a much more regular, stable group of

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students who did attend and got to know each other a bit.

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So my aim in the groups was to model, I guess, the idea of engagement online through the

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groups and to make them as facilitative as possible and try and use some of the skills,

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I guess, I was exploring about to use in active learning online.

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So we did things like on arrival to do activities to help people to arrive, leave behind what

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they had before, to be able to focus on what we were doing and for everybody to say something

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at the beginning, whatever it was, whether it was how they were doing, where they were,

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what the weather was like, that kind of thing, just so everyone got a chance to say something

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early on and get to know each other a bit more personally.

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And then I also worked with a student intern that I was lucky enough to have as part of

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the project who was brilliant in getting together all the literature that was already out there

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on online learning and the psychology of that, which was actually very little that was particularly

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related to the paradoxes we were looking at.

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They put together the information that was there along with the information from Krista

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Seussman's paper about the paradoxes and presented each time at the beginning of the four main

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groups and a particular theme that we were going to focus on in those groups.

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The four themes we looked at were contact, first of all, which was basically kind of

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what gets in the way or what helps us to be in contact with each other on a really basic

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level, as in noticing that the other person's there and obviously with connection problems

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and multitasking that there are problems with that at a really basic level.

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The second theme is authenticity.

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And so that was really about how much does everyone feel able to be themselves in this

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environment.

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The third theme was connection, which was a much deeper level of noticing each other,

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but feeling resonance with each other, having some sense that you're not alone and have

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some shared thing to talk about.

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And then the fourth theme was inequalities and how those inequalities arise, particularly

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in the digital environment.

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So we had an introduction session too, and then we had a final session after those themes

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where the recommendations that we'd pulled out got fed back to the groups for feedback

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and to refine and to kind of check whether the recommendations we'd pulled out from

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the data were valid for those groups.

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So it sounds then like each group had a topic and everyone would kind of discuss that topic

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in the group and then you had an opportunity to reflect on that.

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So how did you get data out of those conversations?

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Well, that was the best bit really in terms of how pragmatic this was as a methodology.

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So we recorded each session, so we had the data to go back to, but in the event it was

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quite easy to get from the discussions, which had already been focused on a topic and a

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theme to then pull out from the discussions what people were suggesting were the main

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themes and what the potential recommendations about how we could best facilitate online

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learning that came from that.

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So it really was a kind of, so what would this mean in practice?

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How could we, what's the best way we could do that?

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And then going back in the last group to say, this is what we thought might come out of

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this particular theme.

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What do you think?

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When might that work?

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When might it not?

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And coming up with as many possible recommendations as we could really.

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Great.

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So those conversations kind of elicited practical approaches to addressing some of the problems

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that people discussed in those groups, perhaps about being present or being authentic when

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or connected when you're sat in.

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In my case, when I work at home, I'm sat in my back bedroom, which is quite cold and someone

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else might be in a really busy kitchen or something like that.

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So how are we really present and connected in the context of the call that we're on rather

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than being in our cold back bedroom or a busy kitchen or something like that?

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Yeah, exactly.

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And a lot of the recommendations, the whole point was to pull out practical recommendations

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really as an output.

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But a lot of the recommendations were not, this is what everyone should do.

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It was more about these are some of the difficulties you might want to try, A, B or C.

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Excellent.

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So, yes, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about what you did find out from

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these groups and these conversations then.

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Well, probably the main finding, I think, that came out from it was a realisation that

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this sudden move to online learning for a lot of people, I mean, I know online learning

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had pre-existed COVID for some people by a long way, but for the majority of people who

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move suddenly online, a kind of new online culture arose that hadn't been decided on,

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but just happened.

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So, for example, most people had the experience that as educators that they were teaching

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to rooms of black tiles and none of the students were putting their cameras on, for example.

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And that was just something that happened, you know, at the time and wasn't terribly

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questioned even though a lot of people struggled with it.

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But it was kind of seen to be such an anxiety provoking time anyway that people were just

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glad that students were turning up, I think, really on the whole.

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And so one of the major recommendations that came from this is that we really need to kind

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of set up a new culture for online learning and to establish clear kind of protocols or

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guidelines about what we're expecting from people attending synchronous sessions.

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And my research was specific to synchronous sessions because that's the only time that

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you've got an opportunity to engage psychologically with other people who were there at the same

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time.

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So what came from that was the idea of an online student synchronous session protocol,

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which said things like multitasking is a myth, but you know, you're likely when you're online

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to be pulled in varying directions with many things that are going to grab your attention.

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And these are but we hope, you know, we're expecting that you try and focus on your teaching

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and learning.

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And these are the things that you could do to try and do that.

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So things like turning off notifications, trying not to be disturbed and thinking about

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ways to do that.

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And one of the things that came in the protocol was to say we expect people to attend with

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their cameras on to increase engagement.

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And obviously that can't always happen for everybody all the time for all sorts of reasons,

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whether it's connection problems or accessibility issues.

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But as a general protocol and as a general kind of learning culture, we wanted that to

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be the culture that was established.

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So the online student protocol was one of the main outputs that came from it.

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The second main thing was to say that synchronous sessions should really be an opportunity in

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online teaching to promote engagement rather than an opportunity where everybody is expected

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to turn up at a certain time, but just watch, you know, that it should be more of an engagement

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taking part in activity rather than a spectator sport.

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So really moving in with the principles of active learning and not the kind of old style

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pedagogical student doesn't know anything.

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The teacher is the expert conveying knowledge.

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And so the other main kind of recommendation was how to create or design a curriculum that

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was coherent, where the synchronous sessions fitted in with other material that was available

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online, whether that was through flip learning or whatever else and through non-synchronous

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discussion boards, for example, but how to fit it all together so that the synchronous

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sessions would maximise the student engagement.

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Excellent.

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So there's kind of two key strands there.

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There's almost a student facing online protocol so that staff can say to students, these are

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the terms on which we would all engage in this session and for these reasons.

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And then kind of some staff facing resources to encourage staff to think about how they

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can best use synchronous online sessions to promote engagement.

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Definitely.

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And the promoting engagement was a big part of that staff facing output as well.

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And there's a third bit really spoke in this wheel, I guess, which is about the resources

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and support needs of the staff and the students to make this possible.

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And that had much wider implications for the university.

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So in terms of campus design and needing private and soundproof spaces for people to attend

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synchronous sessions and how to address digital inequalities and make sure that the devices

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were feasible and the Wi-Fi is feasible for everyone to attend.

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Great.

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And am I right in thinking that you've also created an output that explains the novel

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method that you use to share that with people who might be interested in recreating your

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kind of approach to collecting data?

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You are absolutely right that that's the intention.

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And that's next on my list to do that.

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And I'm presenting at a conference in January about the method specifically.

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So that will kind of give me the basics of what I need to then create a sway for how

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to use this methodology, because I thought it was a great methodology.

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Excellent.

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I'd like to encourage other people to use it too.

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Brilliant.

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So that one's a coming soon.

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So the things that we've discussed already, the online learning protocol and the guidance

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for staff wanting to use synchronous online sessions to promote engagement, they exist

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already.

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They do.

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They were hosted on the LITE website on your page.

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So we'll include a link to that in the description for this episode.

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And then the method guide is a coming soon.

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And there are two other documents that people might want to access through my website, through

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the LITE website fellowship pages.

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One is a document about pedagogical approaches and active learning and the particular and

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philosophical foundations, I guess, of student engagement online.

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And the second one is a summary of the psychological paradoxes that we're investigating and looking

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at.

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Brilliant.

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And those were the paradoxes that underpin the topics for the group discussions.

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So it all sounds really positive.

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I was just wondering if you encountered any challenges in your approach or throughout

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the fellowship.

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Well, looking back, it kind of feels like it's gone incredibly smoothly.

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And to have finished the project before the end of the fellowship, I'm quite amazed by

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really.

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At the time, there were there were kind of anxious moments, probably mainly in terms

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of students attending the action research groups and not being sure each time whether

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enough people would attend for it to be a group.

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However, each time enough people as in at least three.

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And I think there was only one group there was where there was only three and most groups

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had more than that.

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So each time the anxiety kind of we got through the anxiety and it was OK.

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And I'm not sure that anything I can't think of what I could do differently to do that.

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I think it was just really hard to find a time and students are so pressured to complete

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their course requirements and everything else they have going on in their lives.

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I think vouchers were essential to provide some kind of incentive.

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And I don't I don't know what else.

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I mean, we did some work at the beginning kind of with seminars and trying to talk about

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why this mattered.

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I really don't know what else we could have done.

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And in the event, we got quite a good range of students from different faculties, from

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international students.

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So, you know, it all turned out well in the end, really.

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But it wasn't a smooth run all the way.

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Brilliant.

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And yeah, of course, offering vouchers is something that we encourage everyone to do

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in the LITE Fellowship, because not only does it incentivise participation, it also

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provides an acknowledgement of the contribution that students are giving to the research projects

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absolutely undertaken through LITE Fellowship.

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So that's really important.

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And so then if we kind of zoom out and think about kind of the big picture, how are you

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hoping that your findings, your outputs are going to be useful in practice?

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Or what are you hoping might change as a result of your research and putting your outputs

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out there?

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OK.

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Well, at the moment, we're piloting the resources with one fully online course and one hybrid

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course.

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So they've shared the online synchronous student protocol with their students and the educators

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are using the Sway for student engagement.

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So I'm hoping to be able to evaluate their use with those two programs before the fellowship

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finishes or shortly afterwards.

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And change the resources according to that.

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And then hopefully find ways to implement it much more broadly.

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So with all the fully online courses and with as many hybrid programs or online modules

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as we possibly can, doing that in practice might take some time.

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And I think changing the online culture again will take some time.

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So kind of trying to implement this for programs from the start within the marketing material

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before students arrive is going to be the most effective way to kind of rather than

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changing a culture during the programs.

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And that's going to take time, really.

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But I'm hopeful it will make a difference.

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There's enough people who are hopeful and wanting to do something different with synchronous

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sessions at the moment that I'm hoping it will really make a difference.

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But there's also some work to be done looking at how this might need to be different for

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particular disciplines that are much more used to a different pedagogical style, shall

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we say, where students and educators are less into student engagement in terms of principles.

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So we need to think about that.

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So might that be disciplines where there's perhaps more of a kind of tradition of lecturing

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and a bit less maybe seminars or that kind of.

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Disciplines.

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Yeah, disciplines where they seem to be much more of a right and wrong answer rather than

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anything to debate or discuss.

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OK, yeah, that's interesting.

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Well it's been an absolute pleasure watching this fellowship kind of take shape and grow

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over the past, I think, two years.

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So it's really exciting to be here having this conversation at the end where there are

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outputs that you're able to share now and hopefully help people to maximise that student

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engagement in online synchronous sessions and hopefully really enhance people's experiences

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of leading and participating in them as well.

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I hope so.

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Yeah, it's been great to get to this point.

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Yeah, so thank you for joining me today for this conversation.

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It's been great to hear a little bit more about the research and how it's gone.

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And as I've said, we'll put the links to all of Gillian's outputs and her page on the

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LITE website in the description for the show.

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And I'm sure that Gillian wouldn't mind if you have any questions, if you contact Gillian

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directly.

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Absolutely.

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And just to say thanks to LITE, a fantastic resource to support research, really.

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Marvellous.

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Thank you very much.