Welcome to LITE Bites, an occasional podcast from Leeds Institute for Teaching Excellence
at the University of Leeds.
Episodes will be hosted by members of the LITE team.
And we'll be showcasing the scholarship of teaching and learning from across the university.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the LITE Bites podcast.
It's Emma Peasland here, Research and Impact Officer in LITE at the University of Leeds.
And today I'm joined by Dr. Gillian Proctor, who is nearing the end of a LITE Fellowship,
which is called Authenticity and Connection Online.
And it looks at the psychology of online learning.
So hi Gillian, how are you?
I'm good.
Excellent.
I'm glad to have you here on the podcast today.
Thank you.
And we're going to have a bit of a conversation today about your fellowship experience and
the research that you've done and the findings and you're drawing close to the end of your
fellowship at the moment.
And you've produced some kind of outputs and reports and things like that, which people
will be able to find and we can link to in the description for this podcast.
But yeah, I wondered if you might like to start our conversation by telling us a little
bit about your fellowship and your research and what it was that you wanted to investigate.
OK, so this all started during Covid and I was and still am a lecturer in counseling
and psychotherapy.
And as with everybody, when Covid arise, arose and when Covid arrived, everybody in the university
moved to online teaching just overnight.
And this was a real challenge for counseling and psychotherapy because all of our teaching
was experiential group work and all about student engagement.
And none of us really had any experience of teaching online.
But it was it was a really interesting challenge.
And during that first lockdown, I worked quite closely with a colleague of mine, Krista Suessman
in Austria, who was also working with counseling groups, clients and individuals online and
thinking a lot about the psychology of how we relate online and how that's different
from relating in person.
And we talked a lot about this and she wrote a paper about the paradoxes of relating psychologically
online.
And I wanted to think much more deeply about how this related to teaching and learning
and what this meant for our ability to be able to use active learning and student engagement
online.
So I developed a research proposal and on my second attempt to try and get some fellowship
funding, having liaised much more closely and consulted with people around the university
about how this fitted into lots of groups and streams.
And I was successful in getting the fellowship.
Great.
And you had a really kind of interesting method that you proposed and then used to collect
your data.
Yeah, could you tell us a little bit about how you tackled your fellowship?
Yeah, it was, I mean, it was really fortuitous, really, in a sense, the COVID context, because
everybody immediately then had the experience of either teaching or learning online in the
university context.
And I wanted to recognize the range of that experience and use it.
So I wanted to find a methodology that acknowledged that the people, the participants would also
be experienced people in the thing that I was looking at and to use some kind of democratic
methodology that didn't see me as the expert with the only agenda, but wanted, you know,
everybody involved to be part of it.
So I used participatory action research and developed or put together two groups, one
for educators and one for students.
And how many people did you have in each of those groups?
Well, that was interesting.
The aim was to get 10 in each group.
And I anticipated I'd really have a problem getting the educators because everybody was
so hard pressed and busy.
In the event, I had about 13 in the educators group and getting a group of students was
much harder.
Even though we had vouchers to pay students for their time.
And so we had an average of about six students each time, I think.
And was it the same people every time?
No, it was from a larger pool.
The educators were more or less the same people each time.
The students was a pool of about 10 for which an average of six came each time.
Okay, cool.
So that's interesting.
So I guess that you got perhaps a little bit of a community as people got to know each
other as they popped up in the same times.
And in fact, actually, I mean, I know a little bit about this study, but how often did the
groups meet?
How frequently and how long did they meet for?
We met six times over a period of about probably eight months in the end.
I think some of the one of the groups was cancelled, at least due to strikes.
I think there might have been another cancelled for some reason.
And so it was supposed to be monthly originally, and it took us about eight months.
And each time we met, it was for two hours.
And I'd love to hear a little bit about what happened in each of those two hour groups.
Okay.
I think you're right about the idea of a community developing certainly within the staff group
that was more stable in terms of who attended.
I think people got to know each other better during the time and it became easier, I guess.
The same with the student group to some extent.
I think after about the third group, that became a much more regular, stable group of
students who did attend and got to know each other a bit.
So my aim in the groups was to model, I guess, the idea of engagement online through the
groups and to make them as facilitative as possible and try and use some of the skills,
I guess, I was exploring about to use in active learning online.
So we did things like on arrival to do activities to help people to arrive, leave behind what
they had before, to be able to focus on what we were doing and for everybody to say something
at the beginning, whatever it was, whether it was how they were doing, where they were,
what the weather was like, that kind of thing, just so everyone got a chance to say something
early on and get to know each other a bit more personally.
And then I also worked with a student intern that I was lucky enough to have as part of
the project who was brilliant in getting together all the literature that was already out there
on online learning and the psychology of that, which was actually very little that was particularly
related to the paradoxes we were looking at.
They put together the information that was there along with the information from Krista
Seussman's paper about the paradoxes and presented each time at the beginning of the four main
groups and a particular theme that we were going to focus on in those groups.
The four themes we looked at were contact, first of all, which was basically kind of
what gets in the way or what helps us to be in contact with each other on a really basic
level, as in noticing that the other person's there and obviously with connection problems
and multitasking that there are problems with that at a really basic level.
The second theme is authenticity.
And so that was really about how much does everyone feel able to be themselves in this
environment.
The third theme was connection, which was a much deeper level of noticing each other,
but feeling resonance with each other, having some sense that you're not alone and have
some shared thing to talk about.
And then the fourth theme was inequalities and how those inequalities arise, particularly
in the digital environment.
So we had an introduction session too, and then we had a final session after those themes
where the recommendations that we'd pulled out got fed back to the groups for feedback
and to refine and to kind of check whether the recommendations we'd pulled out from
the data were valid for those groups.
So it sounds then like each group had a topic and everyone would kind of discuss that topic
in the group and then you had an opportunity to reflect on that.
So how did you get data out of those conversations?
Well, that was the best bit really in terms of how pragmatic this was as a methodology.
So we recorded each session, so we had the data to go back to, but in the event it was
quite easy to get from the discussions, which had already been focused on a topic and a
theme to then pull out from the discussions what people were suggesting were the main
themes and what the potential recommendations about how we could best facilitate online
learning that came from that.
So it really was a kind of, so what would this mean in practice?
How could we, what's the best way we could do that?
And then going back in the last group to say, this is what we thought might come out of
this particular theme.
What do you think?
When might that work?
When might it not?
And coming up with as many possible recommendations as we could really.
Great.
So those conversations kind of elicited practical approaches to addressing some of the problems
that people discussed in those groups, perhaps about being present or being authentic when
or connected when you're sat in.
In my case, when I work at home, I'm sat in my back bedroom, which is quite cold and someone
else might be in a really busy kitchen or something like that.
So how are we really present and connected in the context of the call that we're on rather
than being in our cold back bedroom or a busy kitchen or something like that?
Yeah, exactly.
And a lot of the recommendations, the whole point was to pull out practical recommendations
really as an output.
But a lot of the recommendations were not, this is what everyone should do.
It was more about these are some of the difficulties you might want to try, A, B or C.
Excellent.
So, yes, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about what you did find out from
these groups and these conversations then.
Well, probably the main finding, I think, that came out from it was a realisation that
this sudden move to online learning for a lot of people, I mean, I know online learning
had pre-existed COVID for some people by a long way, but for the majority of people who
move suddenly online, a kind of new online culture arose that hadn't been decided on,
but just happened.
So, for example, most people had the experience that as educators that they were teaching
to rooms of black tiles and none of the students were putting their cameras on, for example.
And that was just something that happened, you know, at the time and wasn't terribly
questioned even though a lot of people struggled with it.
But it was kind of seen to be such an anxiety provoking time anyway that people were just
glad that students were turning up, I think, really on the whole.
And so one of the major recommendations that came from this is that we really need to kind
of set up a new culture for online learning and to establish clear kind of protocols or
guidelines about what we're expecting from people attending synchronous sessions.
And my research was specific to synchronous sessions because that's the only time that
you've got an opportunity to engage psychologically with other people who were there at the same
time.
So what came from that was the idea of an online student synchronous session protocol,
which said things like multitasking is a myth, but you know, you're likely when you're online
to be pulled in varying directions with many things that are going to grab your attention.
And these are but we hope, you know, we're expecting that you try and focus on your teaching
and learning.
And these are the things that you could do to try and do that.
So things like turning off notifications, trying not to be disturbed and thinking about
ways to do that.
And one of the things that came in the protocol was to say we expect people to attend with
their cameras on to increase engagement.
And obviously that can't always happen for everybody all the time for all sorts of reasons,
whether it's connection problems or accessibility issues.
But as a general protocol and as a general kind of learning culture, we wanted that to
be the culture that was established.
So the online student protocol was one of the main outputs that came from it.
The second main thing was to say that synchronous sessions should really be an opportunity in
online teaching to promote engagement rather than an opportunity where everybody is expected
to turn up at a certain time, but just watch, you know, that it should be more of an engagement
taking part in activity rather than a spectator sport.
So really moving in with the principles of active learning and not the kind of old style
pedagogical student doesn't know anything.
The teacher is the expert conveying knowledge.
And so the other main kind of recommendation was how to create or design a curriculum that
was coherent, where the synchronous sessions fitted in with other material that was available
online, whether that was through flip learning or whatever else and through non-synchronous
discussion boards, for example, but how to fit it all together so that the synchronous
sessions would maximise the student engagement.
Excellent.
So there's kind of two key strands there.
There's almost a student facing online protocol so that staff can say to students, these are
the terms on which we would all engage in this session and for these reasons.
And then kind of some staff facing resources to encourage staff to think about how they
can best use synchronous online sessions to promote engagement.
Definitely.
And the promoting engagement was a big part of that staff facing output as well.
And there's a third bit really spoke in this wheel, I guess, which is about the resources
and support needs of the staff and the students to make this possible.
And that had much wider implications for the university.
So in terms of campus design and needing private and soundproof spaces for people to attend
synchronous sessions and how to address digital inequalities and make sure that the devices
were feasible and the Wi-Fi is feasible for everyone to attend.
Great.
And am I right in thinking that you've also created an output that explains the novel
method that you use to share that with people who might be interested in recreating your
kind of approach to collecting data?
You are absolutely right that that's the intention.
And that's next on my list to do that.
And I'm presenting at a conference in January about the method specifically.
So that will kind of give me the basics of what I need to then create a sway for how
to use this methodology, because I thought it was a great methodology.
Excellent.
I'd like to encourage other people to use it too.
Brilliant.
So that one's a coming soon.
So the things that we've discussed already, the online learning protocol and the guidance
for staff wanting to use synchronous online sessions to promote engagement, they exist
already.
They do.
They were hosted on the LITE website on your page.
So we'll include a link to that in the description for this episode.
And then the method guide is a coming soon.
And there are two other documents that people might want to access through my website, through
the LITE website fellowship pages.
One is a document about pedagogical approaches and active learning and the particular and
philosophical foundations, I guess, of student engagement online.
And the second one is a summary of the psychological paradoxes that we're investigating and looking
at.
Brilliant.
And those were the paradoxes that underpin the topics for the group discussions.
So it all sounds really positive.
I was just wondering if you encountered any challenges in your approach or throughout
the fellowship.
Well, looking back, it kind of feels like it's gone incredibly smoothly.
And to have finished the project before the end of the fellowship, I'm quite amazed by
really.
At the time, there were there were kind of anxious moments, probably mainly in terms
of students attending the action research groups and not being sure each time whether
enough people would attend for it to be a group.
However, each time enough people as in at least three.
And I think there was only one group there was where there was only three and most groups
had more than that.
So each time the anxiety kind of we got through the anxiety and it was OK.
And I'm not sure that anything I can't think of what I could do differently to do that.
I think it was just really hard to find a time and students are so pressured to complete
their course requirements and everything else they have going on in their lives.
I think vouchers were essential to provide some kind of incentive.
And I don't I don't know what else.
I mean, we did some work at the beginning kind of with seminars and trying to talk about
why this mattered.
I really don't know what else we could have done.
And in the event, we got quite a good range of students from different faculties, from
international students.
So, you know, it all turned out well in the end, really.
But it wasn't a smooth run all the way.
Brilliant.
And yeah, of course, offering vouchers is something that we encourage everyone to do
in the LITE Fellowship, because not only does it incentivise participation, it also
provides an acknowledgement of the contribution that students are giving to the research projects
absolutely undertaken through LITE Fellowship.
So that's really important.
And so then if we kind of zoom out and think about kind of the big picture, how are you
hoping that your findings, your outputs are going to be useful in practice?
Or what are you hoping might change as a result of your research and putting your outputs
out there?
OK.
Well, at the moment, we're piloting the resources with one fully online course and one hybrid
course.
So they've shared the online synchronous student protocol with their students and the educators
are using the Sway for student engagement.
So I'm hoping to be able to evaluate their use with those two programs before the fellowship
finishes or shortly afterwards.
And change the resources according to that.
And then hopefully find ways to implement it much more broadly.
So with all the fully online courses and with as many hybrid programs or online modules
as we possibly can, doing that in practice might take some time.
And I think changing the online culture again will take some time.
So kind of trying to implement this for programs from the start within the marketing material
before students arrive is going to be the most effective way to kind of rather than
changing a culture during the programs.
And that's going to take time, really.
But I'm hopeful it will make a difference.
There's enough people who are hopeful and wanting to do something different with synchronous
sessions at the moment that I'm hoping it will really make a difference.
But there's also some work to be done looking at how this might need to be different for
particular disciplines that are much more used to a different pedagogical style, shall
we say, where students and educators are less into student engagement in terms of principles.
So we need to think about that.
So might that be disciplines where there's perhaps more of a kind of tradition of lecturing
and a bit less maybe seminars or that kind of.
Disciplines.
Yeah, disciplines where they seem to be much more of a right and wrong answer rather than
anything to debate or discuss.
OK, yeah, that's interesting.
Well it's been an absolute pleasure watching this fellowship kind of take shape and grow
over the past, I think, two years.
So it's really exciting to be here having this conversation at the end where there are
outputs that you're able to share now and hopefully help people to maximise that student
engagement in online synchronous sessions and hopefully really enhance people's experiences
of leading and participating in them as well.
I hope so.
Yeah, it's been great to get to this point.
Yeah, so thank you for joining me today for this conversation.
It's been great to hear a little bit more about the research and how it's gone.
And as I've said, we'll put the links to all of Gillian's outputs and her page on the
LITE website in the description for the show.
And I'm sure that Gillian wouldn't mind if you have any questions, if you contact Gillian
directly.
Absolutely.
And just to say thanks to LITE, a fantastic resource to support research, really.
Marvellous.
Thank you very much.