Hi, Nick here from Pods with Nick and James.
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james anyway back to the podcast Hi, and welcome
back to Pods with Nick and James. My name's Nick,
and this is James. Hiya, how you doing? I'm good,
mate. Yourself? Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad
at all. Yeah, things are ticking along all right.
So my topic that I chose today is the loneliness
pandemic. And I say the loneliness pandemic because
it's a firm belief of mine that this is a genuine
thing, but there's a lot of talk that this isn't.
educated enough in such a way that they they
see it as it is um what's your thoughts on it
so far um i think it is a thing like i think
um for certain the pandemic literally isolated
a lot of us and made us think about certain um
so we're talking about the covid pandemic here
right yeah yeah so like the company panda i'd
say it's gotten worse since then although I know
some places are saying that it's been going on
since the 2010 I think I mean I think loneliness
has always been an issue you know like I don't
think it's ever literally just been I mean I
can't think of a single time in history where
everyone was happy all the time you know like
obviously people get isolated and whether that's
just because like they were literally in a time
when they couldn't afford to go out or it could
be enforced uh loneliness or lack of transport
links or um yeah just kind of being maybe ostracized
slightly from society for i don't know certain
behaviors i i don't know Like, there's a lot
that's gone on. I'm not saying this right. Loneliness
isn't a new thing, but I can understand why it
would have gotten worse. Yeah. So let's start
with the simple stuff, right? I like to use analogies
to explain things like this, right? loneliness
is loneliness i'd say is the long -term emotional
effect of a unfulfilled desire for company very
very good i think that's fantastic i i like to
say something along the lines of it's not just
being alone, it's the ache of disconnection,
even in a crowd. And it's hitting us harder now
with endless info and screens. Oh, absolutely.
Like, it doesn't... The fact that we can't...
I know there's lots of different types of loneliness
as well. Like, for some people... you you can
be in a room and if you're if your headspace
is in the wrong place like you will feel alone
even though you're physically not yeah i remember
when i was 16 years old i lived in um supported
housing in a ymca in in south end and i during
that time uh i had loads of people come and go
from my room all the time um but i had a little
book that i used to write like how I was feeling
at that time, like just quotes. And one of the
quotes that I wrote was, there's 8 billion people
on this planet and I feel alone. And it's a saying
that has stuck with me throughout my entire life.
Another one that I wrote was, why do I feel like
a bystander in my own life? That seriously kind
of makes you evil wonder if you did you just
feel disconnected from your your own words and
actions or did you feel like you had no say and
that your choices had no consequence? Yeah, I
just felt like I wasn't. I just felt like my
life was happening and I wasn't part of it. I
was just watching. Yeah. You know, so. Obviously,
we're going to explore why society's setup feeds
into this sense of loneliness. Then I'm going
to try and share some stories. Some might hit
home, a bit close to home. But I do want to also
share potential ways to fight back against this.
That's always good to hear. As we get through
it. But I suppose, let's start with... What's
your take on loneliness? How has it affected
you in your life? In the way society is at the
moment, what kind of influences have you felt
that have added into this feeling of loneliness
in the world? I think it's... Because there's
loneliness and then there's the feeling of being
alone. So I'd say I'm more insecure than I am
lonely. um luckily i've over the years i will
admit when i went to uni i felt incredibly lonely
despite um calling a friend of mine every week
um despite doing my best to be in contact with
my brother um and yeah despite kind of getting
involved with clubs getting involved with church
and stuff um i'll admit the first yeah the first
year was the most difficult um loneliness wise
i guess growing up i uh i lived in a village
and i you know what if i had been smart about
it i could have gotten out like i could have
you know like um yeah i might have had to wait
a couple of hours for a bus but i could have
done it you know yeah um but just i was lonely
i was insecure and even though looking back i
physically could have you know gone into tunbridge
gone into seven oak could have done things a
large part of me didn't want to because i was
genuinely scared like just scared of people and
i think fear is such a large part of what feeds
into loneliness isn't it i mean insecurity itself
is is a is an element of fear isn't it it's fear
of how you are perceived It's fear of not being
good enough. Anxiety is fear of what's to come,
of what could happen. And depression is fear
of what you've lost, of the past, of all of that.
Fear is just such a big element in the world
where we are. And I think it feeds so heavily
into that sense of... Like you said, that sense
of insecurity, that sense of isolation. Let's
talk some numbers for a moment, right? So do
you know how many people, what the percentage
of the world's population experiences loneliness?
um like the entire population the entire world
okay so i actually think that would make things
lower because there's a lot of people who may
not have been reached by the survey but also
i think a lot of people i hate to say it but
you assume those in uh tribal communities don't
get lonely whereas surely they do but it is an
assumption that i have i yeah i mean when we
get further through the podcast and we talk about
triggers and causes, you might understand why
tribal communities experience less loneliness.
But for now, let's stick to the statistics that
we're working on. Okay. All right. So I'm going
to say, I'm going to guess 35%, Nick. 35? No,
no, no. You're all good. You're all good. Global
population is actually at 16%, right? That low?
Which is surprising. However, as you said, when
you tally in children, adults, and the different
communities that we have around the world. That's
actually still quite a high number. Bear in mind,
it's linked to over 871 ,000 deaths per year.
That's roughly 100 deaths per hour from isolation
-related causes. Do you know it actually rivals
smoking for early death? Okay. That's terrifying.
It increases the risk of heart disease by 29%.
Oh, dear. It's something that you don't attribute
to heart disease, right? But your well -being,
your sense of well -being, will feed into how
your body reacts to... alien entities entering
it and respond to infection and things like that.
So you being isolated makes you less willing
and less able to survive. So around 33 % of all
adults worldwide report feeling lonely, at least
sometimes. It's one third of the adult population.
It's huge. If we look at the rest of the population,
the elderly, obviously that's going to be quite
high. That's going to be huge. Globally, around
12 % report frequent loneliness, but it hits
about 30%. One in four seniors worldwide feel
alone or isolated all the time. Now, I'm... Hugely
concerned about the next numbers because it's
to do with the young, and if they start this
way, things will only get worse. But teenagers
and young adults, this is 13 to 29, between 17
and 21 % globally feel lonely. 13 to 17 -year
-olds is 15 to 18, sorry, is... One in five.
It's 20 .9 % for 13 to 17 -year -olds. One in
five teenagers feel lonely. Between 15 and 18,
it goes up to 25%. And between the ages of 19
to 29, it gets to around about one in three young
adults feel lonely or isolated. Is that all the
time, did you say? Yeah. Daily loneliness. 63
% of that one in three people link it to anxiety
or depression, this sense of fear in the community.
Yeah. I genuinely think it's terrifying how the
youngest, supposedly the most connected generation,
feels the most isolated. And I really do think
that social media is the reason for that. Do
you feel that it's, what, because of the fake
connection? Because it's... Yeah, yeah. So one
of the biggest causes of isolation is a lack
of meaningful connection. You mentioned it yourself
earlier on in the podcast. Yeah? It's that sense
of no depth to your connection, just surface
-level interaction. Social media, it breeds this
sense of surface -level interaction. It's like
standing in a hall of mirrors. Everybody is just
a sheet of glass. That's all you see. What you
don't see is what's behind their eyes, what's
going on inside their mind. How many times just
in your life can you remember posting something
on social media as almost like a cry for help?
And what you get is a thumbs up or a love heart,
but nobody calls you. Nobody comes around to
see you. Yeah. Yeah, and I can think of all the
times that people have asked me a question and
I've responded with just a thumbs up on their
message just because there's not anything I can
do or say in that situation, but I want them
to know that I've seen their message. And that
I've read it, but I'm aware that that's an inadequate
response. Yeah. Yeah. So society's influences
are like invisible currents pulling us apart.
And the information abundance that we're in,
it floods us, but it leaves us thirsty for real
connections, right? Yeah. Being able to get information
at the touch of a button. It's not just information
that you're getting. It's misinformation. Misinformation
is another important trigger to this sense of
helplessness. So let's talk about some themes.
Obviously, the information abundance, right?
Interconnectivity all around the world. You get
news from like... You can get news from bloody
Cambodia. And imagine, right, your brain is a
sponge. And it soaks up all that bad news, wars,
disasters, climate crises. And it feels, it makes
us feel responsible for fixing everything. But
what power do you really have to fix any of it?
See, the human brain, it's not designed to deal
with problems that it can't fix. And when it
is presented with issues that are larger than
its control, it will resolve back into this sense
of isolation, powerlessness, helplessness. How
many times have you heard that you're turning
the light off or you're turning the tap off or
only having a shower and not having a bath can
have an impact on climate change? I mean, I'm
told a fair amount, but it's... What's the reality?
Honestly, speaking... frankly about what your
impact could have could be on that okay so realistically
unfortunately i've worked at i've in my early
20s i worked for a pub which went out of business
and something they used to do was rather than
pay for someone to take their recycling away
is they'd wait until there weren't any many too
many customers around and they'd burn it like
huge piles huge absolute massive bonfires and
they just they do that every I suppose every
month or so I'm really glad I didn't work there
for very long that I never had to do it and that
I wasn't directly responsible for that But it
did undermine... My mum's a good person and she
cares a lot about the environment and she does
her best to recycle as much as she possibly can.
But it does make it... It does... It makes your
efforts feel meaningless. Exactly. And then whenever
I've worked at any big company, just the wastage
is huge. Wastage, absolutely. I worked for Tesco.
And at the end of the day, the amount of food,
fresh food, that would just be binned. The amount
of times I have seen... adverts on tv telling
us how important it is to turn our lights off
and yet this tesco huge shop shuts at 10 o 'clock
of a night time did they turn any of their lights
off no did they have people literally still uh
shelf stacking all throughout the night no oh
no We would have an hour until 11 o 'clock. The
shop would shut at 10. We'd have an hour until
11 o 'clock to stack the rest of the shelves
and everybody would go home. Wow. And they would
leave their lights on because you can't advertise
stock that nobody can see. That's their policy.
So you tell me how me turning my lights off affects
the globe. But do you know how we can turn that
one instance, that example, into a sense of feeling
like you've done your bit? How can we turn that
feeling around and make your choice, your action
of turning that light off, mean something? I
guess you can... You can hold corporate or corporations
and like larger stores responsible. But when
it comes to the feeling, I mean, I guess you
can tell yourself that if you're all doing it
together, then it makes a difference. The reality
is in order to get that feeling back, you need
to turn it inwards. Why do I turn my lights off?
Because it helps you save money. There you go.
That's all that matters. Turn it into something
that you have an impact on. Turn it into something
that you have a sense of meaning in. I turn my
lights off because it costs me less money. If
I do so. And it has a positive effect on my life
because then I have more money to spend on things
that I need. And that, I know it's a very simple
example, but that's the reality. Don't think
too big. Think your community. And what is your
real community? How much can you impact? That's
your community. Who can you reach? Who can you
help? So that's how you turn news and information
from being an overload into digestible elements
that you can manage. Stop trying to consume global
news. in the grand scheme of things, are relevant.
It might well have a ripple effect that affects
you as an individual or your community, your
direct connections at some point. But the reality
is Donald Trump trying to start World War III
because he wants Greenland is going to have,
for the foreseeable future, minimal impact on
my direct life. So why do I need to know? You
see, the thing is, right, how many times have
you been in bed, on your phone, doing what I
call doom scrolling, right? Scrolling through
headlines and every time you read something else
that's happened, it fires you up. Fires you up
and you get a sense of excitement or anxiety.
at what impact that could have on you. And then
you've got no one to talk that through with.
You see, empathy overload is a real thing. Oh,
I've heard of compassion fatigue. Exactly. Compassion
fatigue, empathy overload. You're too exhausted.
What that does then, you're so worried about
everything else that's going on in the world.
When one of your friends comes round because
they've broken up with their girlfriend, you're
too exhausted to help them. And yet in the real
world, in your real world, that's the connection
you needed. That's the one you were looking for
when you were doomscrolling. That's what you
look for. So social media, hyper -connectivity,
right? This is another analogy that I wrote down
earlier. It's all a hall of mirrors. Everyone's
life looks so shiny, but yours feels flat. Hyper
-connected via likes, but there's no deep talks.
You know, on average, heavy users browse social
media two or more hours per day. And they're
twice as likely to feel lonely. And that literally
says it all. The more time you spend... Yeah,
like, the more time you spend scrolling, the
more time you're not talking with a human. like
person the less time you're looking them in the
eye like but how many times like i've got i've
got i've got young daughters right and i look
at them browsing social media and then i see
my 13 year old daughter unable to go to school
unless she's got her lashes on she's done her
makeup she's got her skirt right she's got her
her shirt right That's all because social media
tells her she has to look a certain way in order
to fit in. Yeah, in order to be accepted. At
13 years old. No. I'm going to be honest with
you. It does get ridiculous. I've worked with
several youth clubs. And I have had to correct
people. I've literally had to correct 12 -year
-olds body shaming someone. The annoying thing
is they were body shaming this person because
they were being ridiculous themselves. But I
had to be like, guys, what are you doing? She's
12. You're angry with her. Because she said this
and acted like this, not... Yeah, no, exactly.
You see, we, speaking real here, my son, who's
12, and my daughter, who's 13. I have got two
other daughters, but they're 16 and 17. So we
haven't been as heavy handed, shall we say, with
them as we have been with the younger ones. the
12 and 13 year old, we have had them delete all
social media from their phones. And I will tell
you this, we did that. I mean, I'll tell you
the story from beginning to end, right? My son,
he embraced the change quite willingly. We've
allowed them to keep WhatsApp as a means to connect
like via text message to their friends, but they
have to know the people in order to have them
saved on their phone. So WhatsApp, fair enough.
But Snapchat, TikTok, anything else that allows
them to generate or views short form content,
unfiltered, submitted by users around the world.
We've stopped it. And the shocker for me was
my 13 year old daughter, because when we told
her that social media was going from her phone
and we explained why, she cried. She cried so
hard and she felt like we were attacking her.
But we've watched her for months now, become
more and more isolated, spend more and more time
in her bed, on her phone, scrolling along in
her room, becoming more and more miserable, more
and more zombified. You ask her, what do you
want to do today? She goes, I don't know, nothing.
And that, like you, it's almost like she's looking
to you to tell her what she should be doing instead
of how she's feeling, what she wants to do. And
we deleted social media from her phone two days
ago. The last two days, it has been night and
day with this girl. she is a different child
she is having to come out of her room to make
connections with people she has livened right
up embracing time with her family again making
connections with her friends going out to see
her friends because she can't just get them on
snapchat and she's a different kid she is an
absolutely different kid and It's incredible
the power that social media has over our young
people. And we need we need to be so careful.
Let me tell you a little story. This is I've
got a bigger story that I want to go through
later on is a bit of a narrative. But today on
the train, right, I went and got my son today
from his mom and travel on the train to do so.
Right. And there was a dad and a mom, an American
couple that were. obviously travelling with their
kids, and they had three kids, two boys and one
daughter. Young, maybe the oldest might have
been five or six, right? And the dad is on his
phone. Mum is browsing Facebook. The kids are
getting loud and rary. And the dad keeps getting
angry and snapping. Can you just sit down? Look
out the window. And all I could think was...
Why are these kids unable to sit quietly? Why
are they unable to find something to do amongst
themselves? And it dawned on me, the reason that
they can't is because they have not been shown
how. What method, and it's an assumption, I'll
admit. But based on their behavior, I think it's
a safe assumption. What method do you think when
they're home, mum and dad use to keep the kids
quiet? Is it stick them on their phones? Stick
them on a device or put a screen in front of
them. The simple fix, the quick fix. The same
as what mum and dad are doing. They need their
sense of dopamine. They're on their phone. They're
scrolling through. They're getting that quick
fix of dopamine. And they're teaching that to
their kids. If they taught their kids not to
use a screen, to use their brain, to be creative,
to find something to do. I mean, it's one thing
for a kid to be loud. Kids will be kids. Excited
kids are loud. But a happy child is a happy sound.
And an unhappy child is a horrible discordant
sound. And these kids were unhappy. And every
time that dad said, just sit down, just look
out the window, all I could think was you giving
them negative attention when all they want is
your attention. All they want is you to spend
some time with them. And when I went and got
my son, the journey home, I kept that in my mind
the whole way home, right? We, I've got a sticker
book in my bag, which I sometimes grab out when
we're on the train and I give it to my son who's
eight and he sits and does some stickers and
maybe I go on my phone whilst that's going on
or maybe I encourage him to do his puzzles if
I'm talking honestly. And today I decided, no,
none of that. We're going to be together. We're
going to play some games. So we played I Spy
out the window. we played um i don't know if
you've ever played 21 where you have to say like
one two three and then the next person says like
between one and three next numbers and then you
but the idea is you can't say the last number
so you have to try and set up the sequence so
that the other person ends up having to say 21
right um that means whoever whoever's like says
17 yeah Oh, no. No, no, no. It's no. Okay. Whoever
says 16, the next person can say 17, 18, 19.
Oh, no. Yeah. He's 17. He's 17. And then the
next person goes 18, 19, 20. And then you're
stuck, basically. So if you say 17, you're pretty
much screwed. Right. But he's eight years old.
He didn't know that set up. Right. And we did
the same thing. Give him time. He did. He did.
Trust me. We changed it up. We did the alphabet
as well. We did the same theory. but with the
alphabet. So you're not allowed to say Z. Made
it a bit more complicated after he sussed that.
So it kept the game going for a bit longer. So
he's going to know his basic numbers and letters
pretty well. Well, and our train got delayed,
right? So our train got delayed. We got delayed
coming back for an extra hour. So we were on
the train for another hour. That's four hours
we were traveling on the train together for.
Right. And when we got back, I said to him. did
you have more fun today than you would have done
if I had have given you a sticker book or we
had a watched like Dragon Ball on my phone, which
is something he enjoys doing with me. And he
went, yeah, I had loads of fun. Really enjoyed
the journey. And I was like, you know, we were
on the train for longer today than we are normally.
And he was like, yeah, but it was fun. Really
enjoyed it. And I was like, and it just shows.
He was quiet. He was meanable. He was a really
polite kid. fist bump the train train director
when he came by and he bought his ticket off
him um or i bought his ticket off him it was
such a different experience and i was like you
know what that is proof in itself that connecting
with people directly with like around you it
it does make you happy and that's the important
thing to remember you know yeah No, that, like,
just an honest, real connection. Yeah. Yeah,
that's fair. Like, I love the fact that you were
able to keep your kid entertained for four hours,
and that's fantastic. The thing is, when I got
started, it wasn't a slog. It wasn't difficult.
It wasn't difficult at all. And not once did
he ask me if he could have another method of,
like, He was completely happy to just sit there
and say I spy out the window. My son's got this
inherent need to win every game that we play.
And when we were playing I spy, he started making
these really convoluted spies out of the window,
right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear you. Like, what
do you see? oh, it starts with an A, it's an
atom of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of
thing, right? And I was like, okay, what I want
you to try to do is actually think of things
that are visible to you right there and then,
apparent as anything, so that I can guess them.
And we did that, and I guessed every one, and
then I'd guess one, I'd say one, and he'd guess
it straight away, but the game went on ten times
longer than he would have done if he had made
it more difficult so that I didn't want to play
anymore. And he realized that it's not about
getting something that they don't guess. It's
about it being fun. And in order for something
to be fun, you need to be winning at it. And
that's both of you need to be winning at it.
And that keeps the excitement up, keeps you wanting
to keep playing. Because you're both winning
in your own way. Yeah. So there is another story
that I wanted to go into, but this is something
that I kind of wrote, and you have to go with
me here because I've just written some talking
points, and then I was going to use a bit of
creativity to try and go through it as we go,
right? But let's talk about Jamie, right? 25
-year -old, remote worker, lives isolated, works
from home. Okay, absolute disaster path, but
let's keep going. Sorry. There's so many people
now that work from home. I work from home. Yeah?
First thing they wake up to, they grab their
phone. They can see they've got notifications.
They've got notifications of a news alert, something
crazy's happened in America, shock horror. And
that immediately, it's like waking up and stubbing
your toe, right? You know, if you stub your toe
when you first wake up, you know you're going
to have a crap day. Then they start scrolling
Instagram. They get that dopamine fix before
they get out of bed. They're scrolling, scrolling.
respond to a couple of messages, and then they
get out of bed. They go to work, right? And at
work, they're met by their friends, their colleagues,
and they're like, Talking about, did you see
their Snapchat the other day? Did you see this
person, that person? This guy is really popular,
always surrounded by loads of people, right?
He's got loads of followers on social media.
Loads of people really like this guy, right?
They're all so worried about... What's he going
to say to do next? What's he going to suggest?
And he's like, well, what should I get them wearing
next? How shall I get them to have their hair?
And the thing that people always say about this
guy is he's always laughing. He's always so happy.
He's always laughing. And he works all day. And
then he goes, meets his friends for drinks and
they're at the pub and they're surrounded by
loads of people and his phone's going off and
he's constantly checking his phone and talking
to people. And people are always just talking
at him, not really talking about him, talking
to him. in conversation because nobody knows
how to now, right? You just talk about you. You
talk about people. You don't actively listen
to what they've got to say. So everybody just
gives their bit and then somebody else gives
their bit. Somebody else gives their bit. No
one person actually listens to what anybody else
has to say. It's more about what you've got to
say. It gets to the end of the night. And he
goes home. Opens the door at home. Goes in. Turns
the lights on. Dark, cold house. Sits on the
sofa. Picks up his phone. One of his mates, whilst
they were out, saw his ex -girlfriend. He was
hooked up with his ex -girlfriend. Pang. Oh,
shit. Any reason why he should feel that way,
but nope, nope, there it is. All the more justification
the reason the walls start closing in, right?
A sense of coldness in his house gets colder.
All the shadows seem to be creeping in around
him. He starts to hyperventilate. For all intents
and purposes to everybody else, there's no reason
why this guy should be sad. No reason why this
guy should feel alone. He hasn't got anybody
he can really call to talk to about how he's
feeling. And yet he's connected to so many different
people. Feels so hollow. So he decides he's going
to go for a walk. Needs to get out of the house.
Yep. Eyes still red and puffy from where he's
been crying. And on his way down these stairs,
as he's leaving his flat, one of his neighbours
opens the door. They're taking a bin bag out.
And they look at him, and they see that his eyes
are red and puffy, and they go, you're right.
And he stops. He thinks. And he goes, for the
first time, probably in a long time, honestly,
no. No, I don't think I am all right. And this
person, his neighbor, goes, come in, mate. Have
a cup of tea. He goes into this house. He sits
down with this person. He just starts talking
about how he's feeling. And this person just
sits and listens. And the more he talks, it's
like breaking the walls of a dam. Everything
just starts pouring out. And he starts to feel
not sad, but relieved. And he's looking at this
person he's never even thought of speaking to
before. Never really taken much notice of. And
they are looking at him like nobody's looked
at him in so long. Like they're seeing him and
they're hearing him. And he realizes at that
point, followers don't mean anything. The people
he surrounded himself with, it's pointless if
those people, you're not connected to them. Yeah.
If you can't tell them how you feel for fear
of how they might respond. If you can't listen
to how, if they don't feel safe enough to talk
to you about how they feel. Because the most
powerful thing about being connected to people
is that you can expose your flaws. You can expose
your vulnerabilities. And instead of judgment,
what you get from them is love. Support. And
embrace. Something that makes you feel human
again. That is the most important thing to remember.
Something that so many people, all of us I think
at some point, have forgotten. Your phone, your
social media account, the friends list on Facebook,
it's nothing compared to a cup of tea and a chat
with a real person. Let's bring back that. So
how? How do we change? Is that a... Sorry, is
that the start of a sentence or is that a genuine
question? That was a question. I just wanted
to make sure because I've... What kind of things
could we be doing to... I just go through the
stuff that I do because I was lonely and I don't
feel I am anymore. So the first thing is you've
got to, in a way, prepare yourself. So you've
got to understand that sometimes you're going
to get it wrong and you're going to share stuff
and it's not necessarily going to go down well.
And I don't mean that as in all doom and gloom,
but what I'm saying is... Be kind to yourself.
Yeah, sorry. If you fudge up, that's normal.
Exactly. It's normal to tell a joke and not have
people laugh. Go down like a leblun. Yeah, it's
normal to... try and offer someone some encouragement
but rather than encouraging them you've either
got your wording wrong and you've brought them
down a level or you've annoyed them yeah that's
not that's also normal i know that's a a weird
thing to say yeah like this this idea this something
that social media does which i really don't like
is it always Because of the way the algorithm
works, you always see like the most talented,
the most this, the most that, the most clicked
on. It makes you feel so inadequate, doesn't
it? Yeah, exactly. And it's just like that's,
you're going to tell a dad joke and they're either
not going to get it or they're going to take
offence. I tell the best jokes. And that's okay.
I'll be honest, I tell the best jokes and my
entire household just look at me with a blank
stare and I'm like. I'm wasted on you people.
Seriously, I am wasted on you people. That's
it. And that's how you've got to be. You've got
to be like, I am not understood in my own time.
Yeah. You're absolutely right. It is about accepting
that you can't always be right. You can't always
be good at what you're doing. That's fine, you
know? But that's the start of it. Yeah. From
there. Yeah, okay. So from there, what I'd do
is understand that arguing with people or not
necessarily having their full approval of everything
that you do doesn't mean that they don't care
about you and isn't necessarily a rejection.
Like people have been disagreeing since the beginning
of time. And they're going to continue to disagree.
Like a book I really need to read, I think is
called Something Aiders, The Courage to Be Disliked.
Ah, my daughter's got that book. Yeah. Yeah,
so you know that it's important to kind of just
understand that you're not going to... You know,
if you hit it off with people, brilliant, but
you're not always going to. Right. Sorry. Now
that I've got that negative stuff out of the
way. No, no, no. You're right. Ricky Gervais
actually says it's normal to be offended. Just
because you're offended, though, it doesn't mean
you're right. Yeah. You know what? I'm going
to say things that are going to rub you up the
wrong way. That's life. You know what? With all
due respect, I didn't say it to offend you. You
chose at that point to take my words as offence.
That's on you. I'm not going to take that and
I'm not going to have you put that back on me.
that's yours because i wouldn't if this whole
like i'm going to step closely let's step closely
to the line here but i'm going to speak frankly
woke culture is a real pain point of mine because
people seem to think that offense is justification
for Making someone change. But that's not. That's
not the truth. Truth is, offense shows that you
have boundaries and morals that don't align with
someone else. We are all individual people. We're
allowed to be different. We're allowed to have
strong opposing feelings. That's fine. Just because
I walked up to you, a person who was born male,
and said, good morning, sir, does not mean because
you chose to call yourself a different pronoun
that I attacked you. I didn't get that wrong.
Use your words and communicate my... wrongdoing,
for lack of a better term, in a way that says,
I appreciate you weren't trying to offend me,
but I don't call myself sir. I call myself madam.
And I will say, thank you for enlightening me.
I wouldn't have meant to cause any offence, madam.
Don't throw it back at me. have you had people
throw it back at you i was just using that as
an example because it's a very plain example
but it's the same thing right yeah no i i just
i know that i've made mistakes and people haven't
said anything but i have wanted to apologize
afterwards and i just i know that i've gotten
it wrong is if you had if you educate me in a
way that points my flaws out while accepting
that i didn't know that in the first place so
how could i get it right I will do everything
I can to make sure it doesn't happen again. But
if you tell me that I am offensive and attack
me because you took offense, what you'll get
from me is a defense. And you don't want me when
I get defensive. Because I will not take that
feeling that you're trying to give back to me.
I will give it back to you. Take responsibility
and understand that everybody has their own way
of being, their own thinking, and it doesn't
always have to be the same as yours. Yeah, understandable.
Like, completely. I think when we talk, going
from that place of responsibility, and it's kind
of taken it in a different direction here, but
once you know that certain things are on you,
then I'd recommend the way to solve loneliness
is to clearly communicate your points. Do your
best not to get emotional or find thought patterns
that, or kind of get rid of thought patterns
that make you feel emotional, like you've talked
about people taking offense. And then I hate
to say it, just go out and reach out to people.
Like I'm not saying you bother the same people
all the time and you don't message the same people
time after time after time. But what you do do
is you message people. You build connections.
You build a connection. You make contact with
people. You make contact. You make plans. You
maybe make reoccurring plans. It doesn't have
to be a reoccurring plan, but it can be. Like
I'll be honest with you. I keep myself busy because
I struggle with loneliness, but I'm, at the moment,
I'm not alone at all. Like, I go to clubs and
play X -Wing miniatures. Doesn't mean I'm always
going to get on with my opponent. I definitely
don't always win. Like, I lose a lot. And I don't
always get it right. Like, sometimes, you know,
I'll try a bit of banter or... something with
my opponent and they just either won't get it
or I'm getting it wrong. But I keep on trying.
Like, I by no means get on with everyone at my
church. But you keep on trying. You keep on finding
that common ground. You keep on trying to...
to talk to people and, and be genuine. I guess
I'd be honest with you. I'm a bit too much in
a rush nowadays. So maybe I'm, I am getting that
wrong recently, but it also means that the other
aside to that is that it's okay. If you just
don't get on with people, that's fine too. It
doesn't mean that person's a horrible person.
You just don't get on with them. And you can
try your damnedest to find similarities and likes
and dislikes, but sometimes that person is just
not your person. That's fine. Respect them. Let
them go their own way. Don't put yourself under
an immense unnecessary pressure to try and change
yourself to fit with what they want. You don't
have to be friends with everyone. You don't have
to be connected to everyone. It's important that
you have meaningful connections. And in order
to have meaningful connections, it has to be
connected with that person in a way that makes
sense to you and has resonance with you. You
all right? Would you agree? Yeah, I agree with
that. And it's important as well, like, let's
all just take a step back from social media for
a start, right? I'm not saying to everybody,
like, stop. with social media, right? It's such
a big tool in society that to try and stop it
would be ridiculous. But let's not have such
an incredible dependence on it, right? Limit
your intake. And another thing, problem solved.
Without getting your phone out of your pocket.
Just try once a week to fix a problem without
Googling it. Use your creativity. Get that sense
of fulfillment from resolving a problem on your
own. And give yourself that sense of purpose.
That sense of. experience and fulfillment back.
Because you can fix problems all day long by
Googling it. But you didn't fix that. Someone
over in Montauk did. And they shared it online
and you read it and did the same thing as them.
You didn't find your way. It feels hollow. Ultimately,
these changes start small. Don't revolutionize
your life overnight because you will get sick.
We are all addicted to this lifestyle to some
degree, some a lot more than others. And as with
all addictions, Giving them up will make you
feel worse for a while. But I wholeheartedly
believe that withdrawing from my phone is going
to make me better over time. Disconnecting from
everybody is going to make the relationships
that I have more fulfilling, more valuable, and
make me feel less lonely and less isolated. Yeah.
Yeah. Completely agree. How did you, like...
Obviously, I don't want to go too personal here,
but you said that you were quite a lonely person.
Well, growing up, I had anxiety. My autism was
undiagnosed, so I just felt like something was
wrong with me. I didn't understand people. I
wanted approval and connection, but I just didn't
get it. at all just just plain old didn't get
it you know um yeah i'm trying to think of the
right way of putting it but um there there isn't
another way to put it i just didn't get it didn't
really understand um didn't kind of get the teenagers
act the way they do because everybody's scared
And how did you learn that? Well, it's just slowly
you learn it over time and you see it in media
and you see it when you're older and you're watching
the younger generation interact with each other
and seeing how everybody's just kind of clambering
over each other for approval, for status, to
be the person. who says the sarcastic thing and
then walks away you do that thing right like
you ever do that thing where you like you get
angry at the way that people behave right and
then one day you catch yourself doing it and
you're like oh absolutely i've done three years
three days three days is normally the time that
it will take me that I've kind of condemned someone
else for doing in my mind. Sorry, it's not a
good thing to admit, but it is a thing. The reason
I brought it up is because I've done it too,
right? And what I'm saying is it's completely
normal, right? It's completely normal to have
this sense of, I don't like that about that.
I don't like that person doing that thing. And
actually, you do it yourself, mate. So stop looking.
out there and look in here stop getting angry
at like i thought about it in a way today right
um i went across the road and a car just turned
right and i had that initial anger spat at the
car for just turning yeah and then i went What
control have I got over what they're doing? Why
am I getting angry that they turned? I should
be happy that I realized. Why can I not do that?
If somebody doesn't move out your way, move out
theirs. It's not impossible. It's not about them.
Sometimes the change has to come from you for
you to be happy. The world isn't going to change.
The only person who can change for you is you.
And as difficult as it can be, accepting that
and embracing that probably will make you a happier
person. You know? Thank you very much for taking
the time to discuss this serious subject, a bit
more of a deep subject than, I mean, this is
coming from the two of us where we've discussed
Israel and Palestine and things like that, right?
But I do genuinely feel like this was a bit of
a deeper subject and I really appreciate it.
Definitely more of an emotional one, for sure.
I really appreciate you sharing and taking part
in this conversation with us. If that was to
me and not to our listeners, then you're very
welcome. I do struggle with, yeah, sometimes
get it wrong. Absolutely. And remember, everybody,
and this is to the listeners, it's okay to get
it wrong. Absolutely fine to get it wrong. Be
kind to yourselves, guys. I'm going to wrap it
up there. Thank you all so much for listening
today. Thanks, James, for taking part. It's a
goodbye from me. And a goodbye from me as well.