Hi, Nick here from Pods with Nick and James.
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james anyway back to the podcast back to Pods
with Nick and James. It's been a while since
we've done our last one, so any of our dedicated
fans out there, thank you very much for your
patience and hope you enjoy it this week. Our
subject today is looking a little bit at comic
books, a little bit about, well, a tiny bit about
the history of the two giants of the comic book
industry. I myself will be... talking a little
bit about DC Comics, although they've had a number
of names over the years. And my, well, the main
host, Nick, shall be talking about. Tell them
what you're going to be talking about, Nick.
I'm going to be talking about Marvel and, of
course, the many different renditions therein.
Okay, brilliant. Well, I find it interesting
that although comics... were a bit of a thing
in England and have been a bit of a thing. It's
never been quite the same as the entire comic
book culture that you have in America. And I
also find it surprising that although things
have taken off, I don't feel... I was surprised
by my own ignorance when it came to this subject.
So it's been fun doing a little bit of research
into it. I guess I'll start with a little bit
of DC's history. A lot of this I've learned from
just kind of various sources online, and it's
not going to be super detailed, as is the style
of these podcasts. This is all about just kind
of getting a little bit of background information
and giving our listeners just a little something
to think about, not a huge essay to... warp your
mind into something different um okay so dc comics
uh weirdly enough has a number of founders um
and you could argue it has in fact five founders
um which is is interesting um although stan lee
is arguably the most one of the most comic sorry
one of the most famous people to do with modern
day comics and is kind of portrayed as the original
guy. It turns out that the history of comic books
stretches back a lot further than either of these
companies, but we're just going to dive in. DC
Comics was originally, so it's really interesting
to consider, but it was originally known, well,
it was originally under the name National Allied
Productions, and it was owned by a former cavalry
officer called, I think it was Major Malcolm
Wheeler, Wheeler Nicholson, sorry. However, the
more, although that's what your immediate Google
search says, When you look into it a little bit
deeper, Wheeler was involved. Don't get me wrong.
He was involved and he owned the original rights
to the company, but there's several other characters
who are important in starting the business. Now,
National Allied Productions eventually is renamed
as DC Comics. However, there were some earlier
companies called Fun Comics and Action Comics
that were owned by two gentlemen who was owned
by two guys called Jack and Harry. The two people
I'm speaking to here is Jack Lebowitz and Harry
Donofell. Jack Lebowitz was an accountant, and
there's not a huge amount of information on him,
simply because it seems like he was just a fairly
solid businessman who was somewhat overshadowed
by his business partner. Harry Donnefeld, who
was very much a bit of an American socialite,
but also a little bit of a borderline mobster,
for lack of a better way of putting it. In order
to set the scene, this is America during the
1930s. already kind of been and gone uh the great
depression uh like new york is very much the
center of where this story is told and new york
is a great place for is a great kind of hub of
uh well of the american dream of uh of kind of
desperation of trying of immigration and of people
trying new things and innovation because of the
number of people there trying new things. Harry
and Jack basically did, before they started going
into comic books and bought out Wheeler from
DC Comics, They did pulp magazines, which I'm
trying to find a nicer way of putting it, but
I'm just going to be straight here. They were
basically just the porno mags of the 1930s. So
it wasn't like... Just the smart, yeah. Yeah,
yeah. So, you know, like, it's 1930s, so it's
nothing like that bad. Yeah, yeah. But it's still,
like, these were not the... the shiny up -and
-coming citizens. They still would have got more
raised eyebrows than pornography does nowadays.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, yeah, in fact, Harry
at one point had to convince one of his co -editors
within the company to do some jail time for him
because they'd made the material just a little
bit too racy. um now i know that censorship isn't
all well it's it's very much a mixed bag and
often not a good thing um but uh yeah so these
guys on the the edge of uh criminality the edge
of just kind of getting it right you know so
um so jack and harry were kind of struggling,
and they were looking for a business venture,
which they decided to go more straight rather
than more legal, which is fantastic. However,
I find it interesting that the internet constantly
says that Major Malcolm Wheeler was the original
owner of DC Comics, and it's just like, well,
he was, but... These two guys bought it, used
the company with him, and it was Jack and Harry
who did fun comics and then action comics. And
I think I know that this was around 1935 that
all of this started happening. And it was 1938
when... The first superhero. And this is the
thing I find interesting as well. There's, you
know, there's characters who might have extra
abilities, but it's never the main theme of,
like, cowboys in Indian comics or sci -fi comics.
The first written kind of superhero as a superhero
is Superman. Yeah, that was 1938. Yeah, in 1938.
Like, issue one. And at this point, Major Malcolm
Wheeler has been bought out of his company. I'm
not sure if he's still around. He may have still
had a position in the company, but he was no
longer the owner. It was Jack Lebowski. Sorry,
is it Lebow? No, it's not Lebowski. Lebow. Lebow.
Yeah, sorry, after you. It's Lebowski, is it?
Yeah, Lebowski and Harry Donnerfield own the
company, which then gave two really... I mean,
to be fair, all the people I've spoken about
are the business people behind the company. I
see the pairing of Joe and Jerry as... They're
the makers of Superman, you know? Joe was the
artist. Both of them were young Jewish teenagers
growing up in New York, not a huge amount of
money. Joe would constantly be drawing on things
which wasn't necessarily... What's the right
word? yeah just he wasn't he didn't he wasn't
sat there with a privileged sketch pad he was
constantly drawing on things that he shouldn't
be or you know like just constantly that's the
wrong way i'm making it sound like he wasn't
a graffiti artist but it's just he found ways
to practice art you know even though he was poor
and struggling um and jerry was read all of the
cheap magazines that he could get. He read all
the sci -fi, all the fantasy that he could. It
doesn't really surprise me. Unfortunately, Jerry
lost his dad during a butchered robbery. So it's
not, unfortunately, it's not really surprising
that he comes up with this, the idea of this
father figure who's bulletproof, Superman. And
it's really interesting that that's, yeah, that
that's the case, you know? Yeah. So Marvel, I
don't know the depth of history when it comes
to, like, what Marvel started out like. like
comparative to your knowledge around DC. However,
Martin Goodman founded a company called Timely
Productions, and they released their first comic,
which, do you know what the characters were for
Marvel in their first comic? I mean, I imagine
it wasn't the X -Men. Was it Spider -Man? No,
no. It was the Human Torch and Namor the Submariner.
Really? Yeah. The Human Torch, as in from Fantastic
Four. Yeah. But not yet part of the Fantastic
Four. So the Human Torch, literally the person
who they make fun of in the Deadpool versus Wolverine
film. Yeah. He's the original, yeah. For Marvel,
anyway. Yeah, so they released that in 1939,
so the year after Superman was released by what
was... What is it? The National... Was it National...
Yeah, it's National Allied Publications. National
Allied Publications and Timely. Publications
were the two companies back then, 1938 and 39
respectively. It took until 41 for Marvel to
release their second comic, which was Captain
America. Now, you see, I would have thought I
should have said Captain America. To begin with.
Now, OK, when Captain America was released. I
hate to say it quite this way. Had Pearl Harbor
already happened? Wasn't Pearl Harbor like 50s,
60s? Oh, no. I thought Pearl Harbor was literally
what brought the... Oh, yeah, it's ended the
World War, isn't it? It's ended, yeah. It's what
brought the Americans into... Was it 30... Rather
than just... It was later than the war had been
going on. So, like, the Second World War started.
In 1939. In Europe at least. But it's interesting
that kind of like the golden age of comics. It
was 41. December the 7th, 41. Pearl Harbor. Okay.
I'm just going to look up exactly when Captain
America was founded. When that was first released.
Yeah, December 20th, 1940. So a year before.
Okay. All right. So they'd gone with nationalism
before. Okay, that's good. Because I know that
with... Ah, sorry. You know what? I've spent
too much. How did the Marvel company keep going?
And then I'll need to take a little step back
to kind of like the beginning of the war for...
DC. Yeah, for DC. Yeah, so Captain America, it
says on my research that the books I was reading
that it said 1941, but obviously it was December
20th, 1940 when Captain America was released.
I don't know. Yeah, I think that is the order.
Then. Trying to look back through my research.
I mean, obviously, Marvel came through with all
the... I think the success of Marvel has been
stronger over the years, even though the strength
of DC started stronger. The weird thing is, I
think Marvel is stronger now. Yeah. I think historically,
I think DC... was the stronger company. I'd say,
like, my awareness... When it was strictly comics,
DC led the charge. And even early cinematography,
like, DC still had the edge, because... Did you
know there was a radio show for Superman which
had over 2 ,000 episodes? Yeah, it doesn't surprise
me. So, I suppose, would you call that live -action
broadcasts instead of, like, cinematography?
Because that encompasses everything. Well, I
guess so, but, like, I also learnt that Superman,
like, there was Superman Mania, which just kind
of swept America, like, by storm. Yeah. Like,
it's weird that what's considered the Golden
Age... Oh, sorry, mate, I'm talking too much.
No, no, no, you carry on. The Golden Age was
the 50s, right? No. You see, this is the thing.
The Golden Age seems to be right up to and including
the Second World War. And then after the Second
World War... Okay, so like... What's considered
the Golden Age of DC comics is partly where they'd
moved from fun comics... to Action Comics, to
Ally, to, sorry, to National Allied, this up
again, National Allied Publications, to, yeah,
like under those names. When they created Superman,
that was like the start of something and that
caused like a huge... a huge amount of mania.
Superman was everywhere. He was in parades. He
was used all the time in everything. His character
back then was also completely different to what
it is now. He was very much more a man of action,
whereas now they have him as a very massive neoconservative,
just like they've got with Captain America. But
originally... Superman was a guy who would see
someone being mugged, and he would go out, he
just says, looks like this is a job for Superman.
Literally, very quickly change into his costume,
run on over there, and literally just pick up
the bloke and be like, what are you doing? Or
in the very first live -action film, which was
black and white, you'd literally have Superman
just saying, You're one of the people who makes
it difficult for people to understand each other.
You knew what was going to happen, but I'm afraid
this is just going to be a bunch of trouble.
I don't know. They've got him breaking through
walls, not caring about property damage, not
caring about any of that. And he's just constantly
fighting on the side of the underdog, which then
changes in the 50s and 60s. Because he was fighting
for the underdog, and then the character gets
institutionalized during the Second World War
as a way of supporting the morale of the troops
and all of that. Yeah, same thing they tried
to do with Captain America. And that's it. And
then when you become part of the system, when
all of a sudden the war ends, people don't want
to associate their entertainment. with the thing
that they used to read when they were being shot
at. A third of all entertainment materials that
were sent to the troops in Europe when the Americans
were over there was comic books. And unsurprisingly,
when a bunch of them came back, you don't want
to buy the thing that reminds you of the horrible
time. So it's interesting that... It was used
as a distraction for the troops, but even having
the association of the distraction still connects
it to a negative thing. But sorry, anyway, back
to the golden era of DC Comics was considered
to be after Batman was made and after Wonder
Woman was made. And I found it really interesting.
So what time period was that? When was Batman
and Wonder Woman added to the universe? Right
before. right before like so around the same
time as captain as captain america i think i
think it was like one year later for batman yeah
and then another year for for wonder woman but
and then once you've got those three characters
yeah the next the next 10 years or so is considered
the golden age of dc comics yeah i just want
to really go sorry right on the like right over
the second world war into the phase -out of that
kind of period. As it kind of goes into the 50s,
I know from Marvel's side of things, as it goes
into the 50s, they stepped away from superhero
titles and started going along with horror, romance,
and Western stories. Yes. Yeah, DC did the same.
Exactly the same. All of a sudden, heroes became
the people who told you what to do. They lost
their appeal. They lost their audience, so the
publishing houses just changed the media. Yeah.
Yeah, so Marvel actually didn't really start
to take off again until Stan Lee joined in 61.
Yeah, there's... It was interesting. I was watching
a documentary about this and one of the guys
on the DC team was talking about the Justice
League or the very first iteration of the Justice
League. Yeah, that's Superman, Batman and Wonder
Woman, right? Well, it is, but it's like a few
others as well. DC also had, like, Plastic Man,
Green Lantern, The Flash. Oh, Green Lantern and
The Flash, I know. I don't know about Plastic
Man. Yeah, he hasn't aged well. But, like, I
don't know. There's a lot of heroes out there
who haven't. Because plastic lasts for billions
of years. Forever. Yeah, exactly right. You know
what? I hadn't thought of that. That's a fair
point. But, like... Okay, so just really quickly,
the story behind Batman actually kind of interests
me because they said, okay, we need another hero
character. And they thought, okay, well, let's
make a Superman, but without the powers. It's
just him using his intellect and using willpower.
And then I felt it was a little bit on the nose
that they had Bruce Wayne's parents being gunned
down. in a needless crime feels like really on
the nose. And considering you're literally working
with someone or working in the same publishing
house as someone when the physical building would
make a difference, the company that you were
working in would make a difference. So you're
working in close proximity to somebody who that's
actually happened to. So you're not only just
taking the idea of a hero and copy and pasting,
you're then inserting this person's life. And
I'm just wondering, did they ever talk about
this behind the scenes? Did the creator of Batman?
I should have his name memorised. I don't. But
did he ever have a chat with Jerry about, hey,
look... I don't know, but you think about Spider
-Man. Yeah, because Spider -Man has the same
scenario with... Oh, Uncle Ben. Yeah, the guy
that makes the rice. I was holding back. Well
done. Well done. But yeah, he has the same scenario,
doesn't he, where Ben's gunned down and that
kind of puts him on the road of being the justice
for all kind of superhero that he becomes. So,
I don't know, maybe they had a cross -company
meeting and said, OK, the theme for this year
is going to be unnecessary death leading to vengeful
superheroes. Need for justice, yeah. But it's
also interesting that, just really, really quickly,
the creator of Wonder Woman was also an interesting
character. Like, when Superman and Batman were
kind of like the only heroes. A reporter wrote
in criticizing the amount of toxic masculinity
in comic books. And DC's response was to hire
him as an editorial editor. And then this editorial
editor made Wonder Woman. And although he was
very much a feminist in the 1930s, It's really
weird that he talks about the role in women,
the importance of women, the need for there to
be good female role models and strong female
role models. Yet, so much of the Wonder Woman
original comics are just her constantly getting
tied up. It's all sexualisation, isn't it? It's
not just once per comic book either. Apparently,
it's most double -page spreads. there would be
somebody tied up somewhere like and a lot of
it a lot of um diana's strength comes from sublimation
so it's really interesting you've got this one
guy saying no we need to empower women but then
the way that he empowers them is now done in
a way which is considered undermining it's also
interesting that he had a wife and then he had
a grad student and they all lived together so
he kind of had two wives wow very big on women
then yeah well exactly exactly it's really i
mean i don't want to say like his eye the things
that he said about the some of the original comic
books are are absolutely true and there is a
need for strong female characters but I suppose.
It's just difficult to accept it. Yeah, knowing
it and doing it are two different things, right?
It's like the classic, it's the classic corrupt
priest thing. Yeah. Like what they're saying
might not very well be wrong, but it's really
hard to accept it when you know the person who's
saying it to you has done worse. Yeah. You know?
Yeah, absolutely. But it's the same, like any,
I mean, I'll use, I'll generalize here, but obviously,
Listeners, take it with a pinch. It's a generalization.
It's not literal. But if you give a pencil to
a bloke and get him to draw a female superhero
character, he will over -sexualize the crap out
of them. He will make them the most attractive
body physique. with the scantiest clothing on
and then be like, well, you just give her, like,
I don't know, the ability to fly and punch really
hard and that's it. Superhero. Who cares about
that bit? It's just the big boobs and the bum
that we're worried about. At least that's the
feeling, I guess. And if you look at, like, if
you go into manga, you get the same thing where,
like, especially when there's, like, male illustrators.
If there are female characters, my God, they're
sexualized. You know, it's, it's gotten to the
point though, where it's not even like, just,
I hate to say it. It's got, it's gotten to the
point where manga characters are sexualized.
If it's like, even if they're not, not even like
an adult, an adult, like literally it gets to
the point where even like a. a girl a child will
be kind of quite sexualized in in stuff and it
does i get why some people react incredibly negative
to that because it's not it's definitely not
like a it's not a pure black and white issue
but it's definitely not pure pure white on that
is it it's not like it's the it's the purest
thing ever i get why they do it though because
if you want to grab a 14 year old boy's attention
You can use certain shapes to make them think
and feel certain things. And so, you know, illustrators
will do that. It's not even just like manga and
things that have done that. You look at Pokemon.
There are some female Pokemon that are sexualized.
And you're like, that's like having a crush on
your dog. Come on. that's not right why are you
doing this but it's literally just because the
imagery just grabs the attention and you're like
oh okay i quite like this one i don't really
know why i like this this pokemon yeah not to
ask why you like that one exactly because you
don't like the answers when your mind generates
them but anyway sorry um right moving swiftly
on golden golden age of comics was uh It was
late 1930s, like in the 1940s. And then you had
all of the service, like all of the people doing
the servicemen. There was even a comic book about
how Superman would end World War II. And it was
literally, he'd just go grab Hitler, Stalin,
bring them before the world court. But yeah,
like, and obviously they didn't over -focus on
that because ultimately there wasn't a Superman
to end that war, you know, and there wasn't any
quick solutions to that conflict. But it's interesting
how there was a slump in the 50s where they tried
to... What's the right word? Like, they... they
really kind of turned down the creativity and
really censored themselves. Yeah. I think they
were trying to give the general public more of
a sense of normality and move away from that.
I suppose it's what people wanted at that time.
They didn't want it like you mentioned earlier.
They didn't want... the constant reminder of
conflict. They just had that for 10 years or
more. So it's quite common for over -justification
or over -reactions to be taken. Hello? Can you
still hear me? You're cutting out there a little
bit, I'm afraid. Apologies. If you can just bear
with me, hopefully it will clear itself up. Let
me go back to what I was saying. If you can still
hear me? Yeah, can still hear you. Okay. So,
yeah, it's almost like an overreaction, right,
where you've had conflict for 10 or so more years,
and then you all of a sudden move away from it.
You're not in conflict anymore, so you definitely
don't want anything to do with conflict around
you at any point. I suppose there's still elements
of it with the Wild West and stuff like that,
that they did, but like those kinds of comics
were just, they were more relative to the, to
life, you know? And like how times used to be
and the good old days and things like that, you
know? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like, well,
I'll tell you what, let's hear. I've used up
a lot of my good material when it came to the
foundations of DC. I'm going to need to go in
a little bit, listeners, I'm afraid. But for
the next section, let's focus on how did Stan
Lee affect Marvel comments? How did he turn the
boat around, both in the industry and in the
films? Although I would say the original Superman
films are strong. The original Batman films are
strong. And even the animated series in the late
80s, early 90s was starring Mark Hammond as the
Joker. It was an incredibly strong time for DC.
But how has Stan Lee turned it around in the
60s? And then how has he turned things around
before his death? Stan Lee and Jack Kirby...
started revolutionising the Marvel side of storytelling
with, they started with the Fantastic Four. This
is when Marvel Comics was branded in like 61
and forwards. So Fantastic Four was started,
then Spider -Man, then Hulk, Iron Man, Thor,
X -Men, Avengers, Doctor Strange. That was all
between like... 61 when Marvel Comics was started
and 63 when Doctor Strange was released. And
those comics carried on. They shared a universe.
They all fought justice in the same world. And
then around the 70s and 80s, stronger anti -heroes
like the Punisher and the... Actually, it was
in the 80s that the Infinity Gauntlet saga was
written. Then they had a little bit of a boom,
and then they ended up having a file for bankruptcy
in 96. Oh, wow. You can imagine how we could
have not had any of the big cinematography from
the Marvel Universe if... They didn't get the
resurgence they got in like the millennium because
they managed to reprise with the Civil War storylines
and the House of M storylines. And then they
started the movies in 2008. Right. And then Disney
bought them. four billion in 2009 um and then
poured money into their um into the uh what's
it called the marvel cinematic universe um so
then that's when you ended up with the avengers
films the infinity war films the end game and
all the rest of it um and i hate to admit it
and just be a fan boy here but those are amazing
films Yeah, I mean, as far as superhero films
go, they're the ones you think about. I watched
all the Batman films growing up. I absolutely
loved all of them. I've watched all the Superman
movies. I used to watch the Superman TV show
that was on on a Sunday, I believe it was, with
my mum. I used to watch that. I think it was
the same Superman TV show that was out in the
60s or 70s. Proper old productions. I know there
was one that was in the 90s where Lois Lane was
then in Desperate Housewives. Yeah. Yeah, or
like actually the actress who played Lois Lane
was then one of the Bond girls in... Is it Tomorrow
Never Dies? You know what, it doesn't matter.
Sorry, keep going. I don't mean to interrupt
your flow. It's all good. I think it was Roger
Moore, wasn't it, that was Superman? Was it Roger
Moore or was it the guy that fell off the horse?
I can't remember his name. It was Christopher...
Christopher Reed. Christopher Reed. And it is
a shame because I'll be honest with you, even
in the interviews, actually comes across as a
reasonably nice bloke. Yeah, but it's like, is
it Henry Cavill that does The Witcher? If you
talk to him in person, not that I've actually
spoken to him in person, but you see him in interviews
and he's such a realist. And it's really nice
to talk to people like that. I get the same kind
of vibe when, like, watching interviews with
Christopher Reed. Like, down to earth, level
-headed, not arrogant at all. Completely just
a real human being, if you know what I mean.
Awesome, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I get what you're
saying there, because I think the same when it
comes to, like, Henry Cavill. No, that's fine.
So what I'm hearing is, like, Although he wasn't
one of the founders of Marvel, he wasn't the
founder of Marvel, he wasn't the founder of the
superhero genre, but he has made the most number
of successful, consistent characters which have
survived through the ages with multiple With
multiple retellings. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah, yeah.
So Stan Lee obviously was involved in so much
of the... Like, you list superheroes, and 90
% of them have had input from Stan Lee to be
able to create, you know, and drive the story
forward. I didn't actually know that the Infinity
Saga, like the Thanos stuff... Like, that was
written back in the 80s, the 70s and 80s. It's
just, I genuinely thought Disney had got hold
of Marvel and gone, oh, we'll put this crazy
story together. But no, no, no, they just made
films of the comics that were out, like, decades
before. Oh, so it's all been, it's literally
all been done before. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean,
don't get me wrong, the films are incredible,
and it's such an awesome story. If you can get
your head around watching these 13 or 14 movies,
then watch every single one of the Avengers and
similar movies in their chronological order because
it gives a really good story. Fantastic. Well,
okay, I know that... Christopher Reeve's Superman
was considered a high point in DC history. And
I will also admit, I think the TV legacy that's
kind of been happening, although Marvel has caught
up recently, I'd say in the last 10 years, over
the last 10 years, like 2015, the retelling of
the Green Arrow and the Flash. Yeah. oh, sorry,
which they just changed to the name Arrow, was
done incredibly well. And I know that I've, by
focusing too much on the beginning, I haven't
looked enough at the ups and downs of DC over
the years, but I just, I thought the story of
the foundation was pretty damn strong. Yeah,
I mean, it's pretty different to the story of
the foundation of Marvel, anyway. When it comes
down to it, just before we go and stuff, are
you Marvel or are you DC? And has the research
you've done in this changed your opinion? I was
always more Marvel because I think the more modern
stuff is better when it comes to Marvel. However...
You've got to give respect to DC for their hand
in crafting the superhero genre over, what, the
best part of 80 years. Yeah. Absolutely. Like,
if both of us are lucky, we'll probably be alive
to see the 100th year. Yeah, that'd be pretty
incredible. Pretty incredible. especially considering
how many young people are engaged in the storylines
nowadays. That's it. Absolutely. All right, cool.
Well, I hope our listeners will forgive me, but
I've got to disappear. So I hope you've enjoyed
listening to me and Nick talk a little bit about
the history of comic books, or at least the history
of these two companies, which arguably, There
is a lot outside of them, and I don't mean to
minimize that, but the superhero genre. If you
think comic books, you generally will think superheroes.
And if you think superheroes, nowadays you will
think movies. But before the movies, there were
the comic books. All right. Are there any key
points that you want to cover with the material
that you've researched? No, no, I think I've
covered everything that I had. It was a nice,
easy, casual topic to get back into. I know it's
been a little while since we last did one. But
a nice, not -so -serious, casual topic that we
can just have a chat over. It was really nice
catching up. And it was really nice talking to
the listeners. I hope to speak to you again soon.
Hi. Speak to you again soon. And, yeah, I hope
you're all doing well, listeners. Bye.