WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.240 Hi, Nick here from Pods with Nick and James. 00:00:02.419 --> 00:00:04.559 Just a quick one before we get into this podcast. 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:08.279 I want to say a massive thank you for the support 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:11.140 that we've received since starting these podcasts. 00:00:11.820 --> 00:00:14.580 We thoroughly enjoy it and we look forward to 00:00:14.580 --> 00:00:17.899 creating more. 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Our 00:01:21.060 --> 00:01:25.579 subject today is looking a little bit at comic 00:01:25.579 --> 00:01:30.000 books, a little bit about, well, a tiny bit about 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:33.680 the history of the two giants of the comic book 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:37.959 industry. I myself will be... talking a little 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:42.000 bit about DC Comics, although they've had a number 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:47.359 of names over the years. And my, well, the main 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:50.239 host, Nick, shall be talking about. Tell them 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:51.420 what you're going to be talking about, Nick. 00:01:51.579 --> 00:01:53.400 I'm going to be talking about Marvel and, of 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:56.459 course, the many different renditions therein. 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:02.939 Okay, brilliant. Well, I find it interesting 00:02:02.939 --> 00:02:06.840 that although comics... were a bit of a thing 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:11.819 in England and have been a bit of a thing. It's 00:02:11.819 --> 00:02:15.000 never been quite the same as the entire comic 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:18.800 book culture that you have in America. And I 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:23.680 also find it surprising that although things 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:29.199 have taken off, I don't feel... I was surprised 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.800 by my own ignorance when it came to this subject. 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:35.520 So it's been fun doing a little bit of research 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:40.120 into it. I guess I'll start with a little bit 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:44.599 of DC's history. A lot of this I've learned from 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:46.939 just kind of various sources online, and it's 00:02:46.939 --> 00:02:49.939 not going to be super detailed, as is the style 00:02:49.939 --> 00:02:53.300 of these podcasts. This is all about just kind 00:02:53.300 --> 00:02:54.939 of getting a little bit of background information 00:02:54.939 --> 00:02:58.460 and giving our listeners just a little something 00:02:58.460 --> 00:03:02.460 to think about, not a huge essay to... warp your 00:03:02.460 --> 00:03:07.280 mind into something different um okay so dc comics 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:11.719 uh weirdly enough has a number of founders um 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:15.020 and you could argue it has in fact five founders 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:21.719 um which is is interesting um although stan lee 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:25.120 is arguably the most one of the most comic sorry 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:28.860 one of the most famous people to do with modern 00:03:28.860 --> 00:03:33.479 day comics and is kind of portrayed as the original 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:37.520 guy. It turns out that the history of comic books 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:40.680 stretches back a lot further than either of these 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:44.840 companies, but we're just going to dive in. DC 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:52.159 Comics was originally, so it's really interesting 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:58.330 to consider, but it was originally known, well, 00:03:58.469 --> 00:04:01.509 it was originally under the name National Allied 00:04:01.509 --> 00:04:06.969 Productions, and it was owned by a former cavalry 00:04:06.969 --> 00:04:11.009 officer called, I think it was Major Malcolm 00:04:11.009 --> 00:04:16.430 Wheeler, Wheeler Nicholson, sorry. However, the 00:04:16.430 --> 00:04:21.670 more, although that's what your immediate Google 00:04:21.670 --> 00:04:24.529 search says, When you look into it a little bit 00:04:24.529 --> 00:04:31.949 deeper, Wheeler was involved. Don't get me wrong. 00:04:32.050 --> 00:04:35.949 He was involved and he owned the original rights 00:04:35.949 --> 00:04:38.709 to the company, but there's several other characters 00:04:38.709 --> 00:04:46.569 who are important in starting the business. Now, 00:04:46.689 --> 00:04:50.930 National Allied Productions eventually is renamed 00:04:51.470 --> 00:04:55.470 as DC Comics. However, there were some earlier 00:04:55.470 --> 00:05:03.449 companies called Fun Comics and Action Comics 00:05:03.449 --> 00:05:15.589 that were owned by two gentlemen who was owned 00:05:15.589 --> 00:05:19.689 by two guys called Jack and Harry. The two people 00:05:19.689 --> 00:05:26.629 I'm speaking to here is Jack Lebowitz and Harry 00:05:26.629 --> 00:05:32.910 Donofell. Jack Lebowitz was an accountant, and 00:05:32.910 --> 00:05:35.930 there's not a huge amount of information on him, 00:05:35.970 --> 00:05:38.850 simply because it seems like he was just a fairly 00:05:38.850 --> 00:05:42.990 solid businessman who was somewhat overshadowed 00:05:42.990 --> 00:05:48.709 by his business partner. Harry Donnefeld, who 00:05:48.709 --> 00:05:56.750 was very much a bit of an American socialite, 00:05:56.750 --> 00:06:00.990 but also a little bit of a borderline mobster, 00:06:01.029 --> 00:06:04.129 for lack of a better way of putting it. In order 00:06:04.129 --> 00:06:10.490 to set the scene, this is America during the 00:06:10.490 --> 00:06:18.779 1930s. already kind of been and gone uh the great 00:06:18.779 --> 00:06:23.759 depression uh like new york is very much the 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:27.240 center of where this story is told and new york 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.040 is a great place for is a great kind of hub of 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:37.079 uh well of the american dream of uh of kind of 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:41.959 desperation of trying of immigration and of people 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:45.480 trying new things and innovation because of the 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:52.139 number of people there trying new things. Harry 00:06:52.139 --> 00:07:03.939 and Jack basically did, before they started going 00:07:03.939 --> 00:07:07.600 into comic books and bought out Wheeler from 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:12.459 DC Comics, They did pulp magazines, which I'm 00:07:12.459 --> 00:07:14.120 trying to find a nicer way of putting it, but 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:15.980 I'm just going to be straight here. They were 00:07:15.980 --> 00:07:20.000 basically just the porno mags of the 1930s. So 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:23.920 it wasn't like... Just the smart, yeah. Yeah, 00:07:23.939 --> 00:07:26.939 yeah. So, you know, like, it's 1930s, so it's 00:07:26.939 --> 00:07:31.399 nothing like that bad. Yeah, yeah. But it's still, 00:07:31.579 --> 00:07:35.019 like, these were not the... the shiny up -and 00:07:35.019 --> 00:07:37.560 -coming citizens. They still would have got more 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:40.279 raised eyebrows than pornography does nowadays. 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:47.160 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, yeah, in fact, Harry 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:53.040 at one point had to convince one of his co -editors 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:56.420 within the company to do some jail time for him 00:07:56.420 --> 00:08:01.560 because they'd made the material just a little 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:06.329 bit too racy. um now i know that censorship isn't 00:08:06.329 --> 00:08:09.329 all well it's it's very much a mixed bag and 00:08:09.329 --> 00:08:14.730 often not a good thing um but uh yeah so these 00:08:14.730 --> 00:08:20.329 guys on the the edge of uh criminality the edge 00:08:20.329 --> 00:08:25.529 of just kind of getting it right you know so 00:08:25.529 --> 00:08:30.970 um so jack and harry were kind of struggling, 00:08:31.050 --> 00:08:36.450 and they were looking for a business venture, 00:08:36.549 --> 00:08:40.610 which they decided to go more straight rather 00:08:40.610 --> 00:08:44.370 than more legal, which is fantastic. However, 00:08:44.470 --> 00:08:47.409 I find it interesting that the internet constantly 00:08:47.409 --> 00:08:51.009 says that Major Malcolm Wheeler was the original 00:08:51.009 --> 00:08:54.909 owner of DC Comics, and it's just like, well, 00:08:55.029 --> 00:09:02.220 he was, but... These two guys bought it, used 00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:08.519 the company with him, and it was Jack and Harry 00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:14.440 who did fun comics and then action comics. And 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:21.039 I think I know that this was around 1935 that 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:24.379 all of this started happening. And it was 1938 00:09:24.379 --> 00:09:30.440 when... The first superhero. And this is the 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:32.159 thing I find interesting as well. There's, you 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:35.720 know, there's characters who might have extra 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:37.759 abilities, but it's never the main theme of, 00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:41.000 like, cowboys in Indian comics or sci -fi comics. 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:47.600 The first written kind of superhero as a superhero 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:53.820 is Superman. Yeah, that was 1938. Yeah, in 1938. 00:09:54.480 --> 00:10:03.870 Like, issue one. And at this point, Major Malcolm 00:10:03.870 --> 00:10:10.330 Wheeler has been bought out of his company. I'm 00:10:10.330 --> 00:10:12.870 not sure if he's still around. He may have still 00:10:12.870 --> 00:10:14.929 had a position in the company, but he was no 00:10:14.929 --> 00:10:19.309 longer the owner. It was Jack Lebowski. Sorry, 00:10:19.409 --> 00:10:22.889 is it Lebow? No, it's not Lebowski. Lebow. Lebow. 00:10:23.309 --> 00:10:26.120 Yeah, sorry, after you. It's Lebowski, is it? 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.779 Yeah, Lebowski and Harry Donnerfield own the 00:10:31.779 --> 00:10:40.100 company, which then gave two really... I mean, 00:10:40.139 --> 00:10:43.039 to be fair, all the people I've spoken about 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:46.120 are the business people behind the company. I 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:54.629 see the pairing of Joe and Jerry as... They're 00:10:54.629 --> 00:11:01.370 the makers of Superman, you know? Joe was the 00:11:01.370 --> 00:11:08.730 artist. Both of them were young Jewish teenagers 00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:12.269 growing up in New York, not a huge amount of 00:11:12.269 --> 00:11:15.549 money. Joe would constantly be drawing on things 00:11:15.549 --> 00:11:20.450 which wasn't necessarily... What's the right 00:11:20.450 --> 00:11:23.960 word? yeah just he wasn't he didn't he wasn't 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:26.000 sat there with a privileged sketch pad he was 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.179 constantly drawing on things that he shouldn't 00:11:28.179 --> 00:11:31.519 be or you know like just constantly that's the 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:33.220 wrong way i'm making it sound like he wasn't 00:11:33.220 --> 00:11:36.899 a graffiti artist but it's just he found ways 00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:42.000 to practice art you know even though he was poor 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:53.100 and struggling um and jerry was read all of the 00:11:53.100 --> 00:11:56.139 cheap magazines that he could get. He read all 00:11:56.139 --> 00:12:04.779 the sci -fi, all the fantasy that he could. It 00:12:04.779 --> 00:12:10.500 doesn't really surprise me. Unfortunately, Jerry 00:12:10.500 --> 00:12:21.519 lost his dad during a butchered robbery. So it's 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:23.340 not, unfortunately, it's not really surprising 00:12:23.340 --> 00:12:27.039 that he comes up with this, the idea of this 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:31.960 father figure who's bulletproof, Superman. And 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:37.580 it's really interesting that that's, yeah, that 00:12:37.580 --> 00:12:44.299 that's the case, you know? Yeah. So Marvel, I 00:12:44.299 --> 00:12:46.559 don't know the depth of history when it comes 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:50.820 to, like, what Marvel started out like. like 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:54.559 comparative to your knowledge around DC. However, 00:12:54.779 --> 00:13:01.399 Martin Goodman founded a company called Timely 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:05.179 Productions, and they released their first comic, 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:08.379 which, do you know what the characters were for 00:13:08.379 --> 00:13:13.519 Marvel in their first comic? I mean, I imagine 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:16.720 it wasn't the X -Men. Was it Spider -Man? No, 00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:23.250 no. It was the Human Torch and Namor the Submariner. 00:13:25.389 --> 00:13:31.590 Really? Yeah. The Human Torch, as in from Fantastic 00:13:31.590 --> 00:13:34.850 Four. Yeah. But not yet part of the Fantastic 00:13:34.850 --> 00:13:38.029 Four. So the Human Torch, literally the person 00:13:38.029 --> 00:13:43.370 who they make fun of in the Deadpool versus Wolverine 00:13:43.370 --> 00:13:49.919 film. Yeah. He's the original, yeah. For Marvel, 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:56.440 anyway. Yeah, so they released that in 1939, 00:13:56.860 --> 00:14:02.720 so the year after Superman was released by what 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:07.840 was... What is it? The National... Was it National... 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:12.299 Yeah, it's National Allied Publications. National 00:14:12.299 --> 00:14:16.470 Allied Publications and Timely. Publications 00:14:16.470 --> 00:14:19.789 were the two companies back then, 1938 and 39 00:14:19.789 --> 00:14:27.850 respectively. It took until 41 for Marvel to 00:14:27.850 --> 00:14:31.870 release their second comic, which was Captain 00:14:31.870 --> 00:14:36.250 America. Now, you see, I would have thought I 00:14:36.250 --> 00:14:40.149 should have said Captain America. To begin with. 00:14:41.049 --> 00:14:45.299 Now, OK, when Captain America was released. I 00:14:45.299 --> 00:14:48.200 hate to say it quite this way. Had Pearl Harbor 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:52.179 already happened? Wasn't Pearl Harbor like 50s, 00:14:52.179 --> 00:14:57.399 60s? Oh, no. I thought Pearl Harbor was literally 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:58.460 what brought the... Oh, yeah, it's ended the 00:14:58.460 --> 00:15:01.019 World War, isn't it? It's ended, yeah. It's what 00:15:01.019 --> 00:15:06.419 brought the Americans into... Was it 30... Rather 00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:10.379 than just... It was later than the war had been 00:15:10.379 --> 00:15:12.720 going on. So, like, the Second World War started. 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:19.600 In 1939. In Europe at least. But it's interesting 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:23.879 that kind of like the golden age of comics. It 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:31.340 was 41. December the 7th, 41. Pearl Harbor. Okay. 00:15:31.419 --> 00:15:34.620 I'm just going to look up exactly when Captain 00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:41.080 America was founded. When that was first released. 00:15:54.290 --> 00:15:59.129 Yeah, December 20th, 1940. So a year before. 00:16:00.710 --> 00:16:03.070 Okay. All right. So they'd gone with nationalism 00:16:03.070 --> 00:16:06.629 before. Okay, that's good. Because I know that 00:16:06.629 --> 00:16:11.450 with... Ah, sorry. You know what? I've spent 00:16:11.450 --> 00:16:14.990 too much. How did the Marvel company keep going? 00:16:15.049 --> 00:16:17.350 And then I'll need to take a little step back 00:16:17.350 --> 00:16:19.590 to kind of like the beginning of the war for... 00:16:19.590 --> 00:16:26.929 DC. Yeah, for DC. Yeah, so Captain America, it 00:16:26.929 --> 00:16:29.750 says on my research that the books I was reading 00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:32.090 that it said 1941, but obviously it was December 00:16:32.090 --> 00:16:36.129 20th, 1940 when Captain America was released. 00:16:39.210 --> 00:16:43.110 I don't know. Yeah, I think that is the order. 00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:52.769 Then. Trying to look back through my research. 00:16:56.029 --> 00:16:59.789 I mean, obviously, Marvel came through with all 00:16:59.789 --> 00:17:03.029 the... I think the success of Marvel has been 00:17:03.029 --> 00:17:06.410 stronger over the years, even though the strength 00:17:06.410 --> 00:17:11.529 of DC started stronger. The weird thing is, I 00:17:11.529 --> 00:17:17.049 think Marvel is stronger now. Yeah. I think historically, 00:17:17.609 --> 00:17:24.220 I think DC... was the stronger company. I'd say, 00:17:24.220 --> 00:17:27.900 like, my awareness... When it was strictly comics, 00:17:28.339 --> 00:17:33.240 DC led the charge. And even early cinematography, 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:39.940 like, DC still had the edge, because... Did you 00:17:39.940 --> 00:17:43.079 know there was a radio show for Superman which 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:47.980 had over 2 ,000 episodes? Yeah, it doesn't surprise 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:54.500 me. So, I suppose, would you call that live -action 00:17:54.500 --> 00:17:56.960 broadcasts instead of, like, cinematography? 00:17:57.099 --> 00:17:59.420 Because that encompasses everything. Well, I 00:17:59.420 --> 00:18:02.460 guess so, but, like, I also learnt that Superman, 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.319 like, there was Superman Mania, which just kind 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:11.740 of swept America, like, by storm. Yeah. Like, 00:18:11.779 --> 00:18:14.980 it's weird that what's considered the Golden 00:18:14.980 --> 00:18:17.240 Age... Oh, sorry, mate, I'm talking too much. 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:20.980 No, no, no, you carry on. The Golden Age was 00:18:20.980 --> 00:18:25.000 the 50s, right? No. You see, this is the thing. 00:18:25.099 --> 00:18:29.200 The Golden Age seems to be right up to and including 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.519 the Second World War. And then after the Second 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:38.119 World War... Okay, so like... What's considered 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:43.940 the Golden Age of DC comics is partly where they'd 00:18:43.940 --> 00:18:49.329 moved from fun comics... to Action Comics, to 00:18:49.329 --> 00:18:56.369 Ally, to, sorry, to National Allied, this up 00:18:56.369 --> 00:19:02.529 again, National Allied Publications, to, yeah, 00:19:02.650 --> 00:19:07.250 like under those names. When they created Superman, 00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:09.670 that was like the start of something and that 00:19:09.670 --> 00:19:13.549 caused like a huge... a huge amount of mania. 00:19:14.029 --> 00:19:17.410 Superman was everywhere. He was in parades. He 00:19:17.410 --> 00:19:24.150 was used all the time in everything. His character 00:19:24.150 --> 00:19:28.269 back then was also completely different to what 00:19:28.269 --> 00:19:30.750 it is now. He was very much more a man of action, 00:19:30.829 --> 00:19:35.190 whereas now they have him as a very massive neoconservative, 00:19:35.289 --> 00:19:38.089 just like they've got with Captain America. But 00:19:38.089 --> 00:19:41.750 originally... Superman was a guy who would see 00:19:41.750 --> 00:19:45.710 someone being mugged, and he would go out, he 00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:47.450 just says, looks like this is a job for Superman. 00:19:47.809 --> 00:19:50.630 Literally, very quickly change into his costume, 00:19:50.829 --> 00:19:55.549 run on over there, and literally just pick up 00:19:55.549 --> 00:19:59.009 the bloke and be like, what are you doing? Or 00:19:59.009 --> 00:20:04.630 in the very first live -action film, which was 00:20:04.630 --> 00:20:07.890 black and white, you'd literally have Superman 00:20:07.890 --> 00:20:12.430 just saying, You're one of the people who makes 00:20:12.430 --> 00:20:17.150 it difficult for people to understand each other. 00:20:17.670 --> 00:20:20.250 You knew what was going to happen, but I'm afraid 00:20:20.250 --> 00:20:22.210 this is just going to be a bunch of trouble. 00:20:22.430 --> 00:20:25.910 I don't know. They've got him breaking through 00:20:25.910 --> 00:20:28.990 walls, not caring about property damage, not 00:20:28.990 --> 00:20:32.190 caring about any of that. And he's just constantly 00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:35.690 fighting on the side of the underdog, which then 00:20:35.690 --> 00:20:39.650 changes in the 50s and 60s. Because he was fighting 00:20:39.650 --> 00:20:42.710 for the underdog, and then the character gets 00:20:42.710 --> 00:20:45.509 institutionalized during the Second World War 00:20:45.509 --> 00:20:49.150 as a way of supporting the morale of the troops 00:20:49.150 --> 00:20:50.869 and all of that. Yeah, same thing they tried 00:20:50.869 --> 00:20:53.450 to do with Captain America. And that's it. And 00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:57.450 then when you become part of the system, when 00:20:57.450 --> 00:21:04.549 all of a sudden the war ends, people don't want 00:21:04.549 --> 00:21:08.680 to associate their entertainment. with the thing 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:10.799 that they used to read when they were being shot 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:14.779 at. A third of all entertainment materials that 00:21:14.779 --> 00:21:20.839 were sent to the troops in Europe when the Americans 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:25.039 were over there was comic books. And unsurprisingly, 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:28.920 when a bunch of them came back, you don't want 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:32.940 to buy the thing that reminds you of the horrible 00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:36.950 time. So it's interesting that... It was used 00:21:36.950 --> 00:21:39.690 as a distraction for the troops, but even having 00:21:39.690 --> 00:21:42.190 the association of the distraction still connects 00:21:42.190 --> 00:21:45.289 it to a negative thing. But sorry, anyway, back 00:21:45.289 --> 00:21:48.450 to the golden era of DC Comics was considered 00:21:48.450 --> 00:21:54.269 to be after Batman was made and after Wonder 00:21:54.269 --> 00:21:56.809 Woman was made. And I found it really interesting. 00:21:57.569 --> 00:22:01.309 So what time period was that? When was Batman 00:22:01.309 --> 00:22:04.009 and Wonder Woman added to the universe? Right 00:22:04.009 --> 00:22:07.420 before. right before like so around the same 00:22:07.420 --> 00:22:11.180 time as captain as captain america i think i 00:22:11.180 --> 00:22:13.900 think it was like one year later for batman yeah 00:22:13.900 --> 00:22:17.180 and then another year for for wonder woman but 00:22:17.180 --> 00:22:19.539 and then once you've got those three characters 00:22:19.539 --> 00:22:23.799 yeah the next the next 10 years or so is considered 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:28.619 the golden age of dc comics yeah i just want 00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:32.039 to really go sorry right on the like right over 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:35.690 the second world war into the phase -out of that 00:22:35.690 --> 00:22:41.309 kind of period. As it kind of goes into the 50s, 00:22:41.309 --> 00:22:43.690 I know from Marvel's side of things, as it goes 00:22:43.690 --> 00:22:46.170 into the 50s, they stepped away from superhero 00:22:46.170 --> 00:22:50.450 titles and started going along with horror, romance, 00:22:50.509 --> 00:22:54.210 and Western stories. Yes. Yeah, DC did the same. 00:22:54.829 --> 00:22:58.849 Exactly the same. All of a sudden, heroes became 00:22:58.849 --> 00:23:01.849 the people who told you what to do. They lost 00:23:01.849 --> 00:23:05.339 their appeal. They lost their audience, so the 00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:09.880 publishing houses just changed the media. Yeah. 00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:17.920 Yeah, so Marvel actually didn't really start 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:25.619 to take off again until Stan Lee joined in 61. 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:34.369 Yeah, there's... It was interesting. I was watching 00:23:34.369 --> 00:23:37.130 a documentary about this and one of the guys 00:23:37.130 --> 00:23:44.369 on the DC team was talking about the Justice 00:23:44.369 --> 00:23:47.829 League or the very first iteration of the Justice 00:23:47.829 --> 00:23:51.190 League. Yeah, that's Superman, Batman and Wonder 00:23:51.190 --> 00:23:54.250 Woman, right? Well, it is, but it's like a few 00:23:54.250 --> 00:23:59.000 others as well. DC also had, like, Plastic Man, 00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:01.359 Green Lantern, The Flash. Oh, Green Lantern and 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:02.759 The Flash, I know. I don't know about Plastic 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:10.299 Man. Yeah, he hasn't aged well. But, like, I 00:24:10.299 --> 00:24:12.000 don't know. There's a lot of heroes out there 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.480 who haven't. Because plastic lasts for billions 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:16.720 of years. Forever. Yeah, exactly right. You know 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.099 what? I hadn't thought of that. That's a fair 00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:25.420 point. But, like... Okay, so just really quickly, 00:24:25.579 --> 00:24:29.180 the story behind Batman actually kind of interests 00:24:29.180 --> 00:24:32.740 me because they said, okay, we need another hero 00:24:32.740 --> 00:24:35.099 character. And they thought, okay, well, let's 00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:38.640 make a Superman, but without the powers. It's 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:44.539 just him using his intellect and using willpower. 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.299 And then I felt it was a little bit on the nose 00:24:47.299 --> 00:24:51.980 that they had Bruce Wayne's parents being gunned 00:24:51.980 --> 00:25:01.240 down. in a needless crime feels like really on 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:06.039 the nose. And considering you're literally working 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:08.920 with someone or working in the same publishing 00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:12.019 house as someone when the physical building would 00:25:12.019 --> 00:25:14.880 make a difference, the company that you were 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:16.440 working in would make a difference. So you're 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.980 working in close proximity to somebody who that's 00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:22.720 actually happened to. So you're not only just 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:26.059 taking the idea of a hero and copy and pasting, 00:25:26.140 --> 00:25:30.119 you're then inserting this person's life. And 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:32.599 I'm just wondering, did they ever talk about 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:36.400 this behind the scenes? Did the creator of Batman? 00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:39.920 I should have his name memorised. I don't. But 00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:44.940 did he ever have a chat with Jerry about, hey, 00:25:44.980 --> 00:25:49.319 look... I don't know, but you think about Spider 00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:51.900 -Man. Yeah, because Spider -Man has the same 00:25:51.900 --> 00:25:55.400 scenario with... Oh, Uncle Ben. Yeah, the guy 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:58.920 that makes the rice. I was holding back. Well 00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:04.880 done. Well done. But yeah, he has the same scenario, 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:09.319 doesn't he, where Ben's gunned down and that 00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:13.200 kind of puts him on the road of being the justice 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:21.130 for all kind of superhero that he becomes. So, 00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:23.730 I don't know, maybe they had a cross -company 00:26:23.730 --> 00:26:26.549 meeting and said, OK, the theme for this year 00:26:26.549 --> 00:26:34.049 is going to be unnecessary death leading to vengeful 00:26:34.049 --> 00:26:38.589 superheroes. Need for justice, yeah. But it's 00:26:38.589 --> 00:26:40.829 also interesting that, just really, really quickly, 00:26:41.069 --> 00:26:43.789 the creator of Wonder Woman was also an interesting 00:26:43.789 --> 00:26:48.230 character. Like, when Superman and Batman were 00:26:48.230 --> 00:26:51.819 kind of like the only heroes. A reporter wrote 00:26:51.819 --> 00:26:55.839 in criticizing the amount of toxic masculinity 00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:02.640 in comic books. And DC's response was to hire 00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:06.880 him as an editorial editor. And then this editorial 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:11.339 editor made Wonder Woman. And although he was 00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:19.920 very much a feminist in the 1930s, It's really 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:22.299 weird that he talks about the role in women, 00:27:22.339 --> 00:27:25.180 the importance of women, the need for there to 00:27:25.180 --> 00:27:28.619 be good female role models and strong female 00:27:28.619 --> 00:27:31.779 role models. Yet, so much of the Wonder Woman 00:27:31.779 --> 00:27:35.160 original comics are just her constantly getting 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:39.299 tied up. It's all sexualisation, isn't it? It's 00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:43.859 not just once per comic book either. Apparently, 00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:47.559 it's most double -page spreads. there would be 00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:51.619 somebody tied up somewhere like and a lot of 00:27:51.619 --> 00:27:57.279 it a lot of um diana's strength comes from sublimation 00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.539 so it's really interesting you've got this one 00:27:59.539 --> 00:28:02.680 guy saying no we need to empower women but then 00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:05.920 the way that he empowers them is now done in 00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:09.440 a way which is considered undermining it's also 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:13.200 interesting that he had a wife and then he had 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:18.819 a grad student and they all lived together so 00:28:18.819 --> 00:28:25.140 he kind of had two wives wow very big on women 00:28:25.140 --> 00:28:29.559 then yeah well exactly exactly it's really i 00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:33.559 mean i don't want to say like his eye the things 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:36.099 that he said about the some of the original comic 00:28:36.099 --> 00:28:39.220 books are are absolutely true and there is a 00:28:39.220 --> 00:28:44.519 need for strong female characters but I suppose. 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:47.900 It's just difficult to accept it. Yeah, knowing 00:28:47.900 --> 00:28:49.599 it and doing it are two different things, right? 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:52.900 It's like the classic, it's the classic corrupt 00:28:52.900 --> 00:28:55.140 priest thing. Yeah. Like what they're saying 00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:58.500 might not very well be wrong, but it's really 00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:01.720 hard to accept it when you know the person who's 00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:05.480 saying it to you has done worse. Yeah. You know? 00:29:05.619 --> 00:29:09.519 Yeah, absolutely. But it's the same, like any, 00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:12.619 I mean, I'll use, I'll generalize here, but obviously, 00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:17.200 Listeners, take it with a pinch. It's a generalization. 00:29:17.420 --> 00:29:22.640 It's not literal. But if you give a pencil to 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:28.579 a bloke and get him to draw a female superhero 00:29:28.579 --> 00:29:33.220 character, he will over -sexualize the crap out 00:29:33.220 --> 00:29:35.859 of them. He will make them the most attractive 00:29:35.859 --> 00:29:44.000 body physique. with the scantiest clothing on 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:48.019 and then be like, well, you just give her, like, 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:50.960 I don't know, the ability to fly and punch really 00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:52.980 hard and that's it. Superhero. Who cares about 00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:54.559 that bit? It's just the big boobs and the bum 00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:57.059 that we're worried about. At least that's the 00:29:57.059 --> 00:30:00.200 feeling, I guess. And if you look at, like, if 00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:04.079 you go into manga, you get the same thing where, 00:30:04.259 --> 00:30:09.500 like, especially when there's, like, male illustrators. 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:13.039 If there are female characters, my God, they're 00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:16.140 sexualized. You know, it's, it's gotten to the 00:30:16.140 --> 00:30:19.839 point though, where it's not even like, just, 00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:23.160 I hate to say it. It's got, it's gotten to the 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:25.200 point where manga characters are sexualized. 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:30.640 If it's like, even if they're not, not even like 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.819 an adult, an adult, like literally it gets to 00:30:33.819 --> 00:30:38.019 the point where even like a. a girl a child will 00:30:38.019 --> 00:30:41.579 be kind of quite sexualized in in stuff and it 00:30:41.579 --> 00:30:45.480 does i get why some people react incredibly negative 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.640 to that because it's not it's definitely not 00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.119 like a it's not a pure black and white issue 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:55.619 but it's definitely not pure pure white on that 00:30:55.619 --> 00:30:58.180 is it it's not like it's the it's the purest 00:30:58.180 --> 00:31:00.119 thing ever i get why they do it though because 00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.799 if you want to grab a 14 year old boy's attention 00:31:05.769 --> 00:31:09.029 You can use certain shapes to make them think 00:31:09.029 --> 00:31:12.710 and feel certain things. And so, you know, illustrators 00:31:12.710 --> 00:31:18.210 will do that. It's not even just like manga and 00:31:18.210 --> 00:31:20.009 things that have done that. You look at Pokemon. 00:31:20.190 --> 00:31:25.329 There are some female Pokemon that are sexualized. 00:31:25.329 --> 00:31:28.049 And you're like, that's like having a crush on 00:31:28.049 --> 00:31:35.089 your dog. Come on. that's not right why are you 00:31:35.089 --> 00:31:37.569 doing this but it's literally just because the 00:31:37.569 --> 00:31:39.890 imagery just grabs the attention and you're like 00:31:39.890 --> 00:31:42.890 oh okay i quite like this one i don't really 00:31:42.890 --> 00:31:47.250 know why i like this this pokemon yeah not to 00:31:47.250 --> 00:31:50.750 ask why you like that one exactly because you 00:31:50.750 --> 00:31:53.009 don't like the answers when your mind generates 00:31:53.009 --> 00:31:55.930 them but anyway sorry um right moving swiftly 00:31:55.930 --> 00:31:59.630 on golden golden age of comics was uh It was 00:31:59.630 --> 00:32:03.450 late 1930s, like in the 1940s. And then you had 00:32:03.450 --> 00:32:07.410 all of the service, like all of the people doing 00:32:07.410 --> 00:32:09.569 the servicemen. There was even a comic book about 00:32:09.569 --> 00:32:14.970 how Superman would end World War II. And it was 00:32:14.970 --> 00:32:19.569 literally, he'd just go grab Hitler, Stalin, 00:32:19.710 --> 00:32:25.789 bring them before the world court. But yeah, 00:32:25.890 --> 00:32:27.930 like, and obviously they didn't over -focus on 00:32:27.930 --> 00:32:31.710 that because ultimately there wasn't a Superman 00:32:31.710 --> 00:32:36.069 to end that war, you know, and there wasn't any 00:32:36.069 --> 00:32:41.210 quick solutions to that conflict. But it's interesting 00:32:41.210 --> 00:32:43.809 how there was a slump in the 50s where they tried 00:32:43.809 --> 00:32:51.049 to... What's the right word? Like, they... they 00:32:51.049 --> 00:32:54.529 really kind of turned down the creativity and 00:32:54.529 --> 00:33:00.450 really censored themselves. Yeah. I think they 00:33:00.450 --> 00:33:05.250 were trying to give the general public more of 00:33:05.250 --> 00:33:10.369 a sense of normality and move away from that. 00:33:10.829 --> 00:33:13.390 I suppose it's what people wanted at that time. 00:33:13.450 --> 00:33:14.890 They didn't want it like you mentioned earlier. 00:33:14.930 --> 00:33:17.619 They didn't want... the constant reminder of 00:33:17.619 --> 00:33:20.640 conflict. They just had that for 10 years or 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:27.640 more. So it's quite common for over -justification 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:33.039 or over -reactions to be taken. Hello? Can you 00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.259 still hear me? You're cutting out there a little 00:33:35.259 --> 00:33:40.839 bit, I'm afraid. Apologies. If you can just bear 00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:45.769 with me, hopefully it will clear itself up. Let 00:33:45.769 --> 00:33:47.549 me go back to what I was saying. If you can still 00:33:47.549 --> 00:33:51.690 hear me? Yeah, can still hear you. Okay. So, 00:33:51.690 --> 00:33:57.349 yeah, it's almost like an overreaction, right, 00:33:57.450 --> 00:34:00.970 where you've had conflict for 10 or so more years, 00:34:01.009 --> 00:34:06.910 and then you all of a sudden move away from it. 00:34:06.930 --> 00:34:08.670 You're not in conflict anymore, so you definitely 00:34:08.670 --> 00:34:10.750 don't want anything to do with conflict around 00:34:10.750 --> 00:34:15.500 you at any point. I suppose there's still elements 00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:17.559 of it with the Wild West and stuff like that, 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:20.880 that they did, but like those kinds of comics 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:23.480 were just, they were more relative to the, to 00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:30.639 life, you know? And like how times used to be 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:33.480 and the good old days and things like that, you 00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:39.760 know? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like, well, 00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.730 I'll tell you what, let's hear. I've used up 00:34:42.730 --> 00:34:45.829 a lot of my good material when it came to the 00:34:45.829 --> 00:34:50.610 foundations of DC. I'm going to need to go in 00:34:50.610 --> 00:34:52.329 a little bit, listeners, I'm afraid. But for 00:34:52.329 --> 00:34:55.090 the next section, let's focus on how did Stan 00:34:55.090 --> 00:34:58.949 Lee affect Marvel comments? How did he turn the 00:34:58.949 --> 00:35:02.869 boat around, both in the industry and in the 00:35:02.869 --> 00:35:06.309 films? Although I would say the original Superman 00:35:06.309 --> 00:35:09.829 films are strong. The original Batman films are 00:35:09.829 --> 00:35:13.969 strong. And even the animated series in the late 00:35:13.969 --> 00:35:19.429 80s, early 90s was starring Mark Hammond as the 00:35:19.429 --> 00:35:23.329 Joker. It was an incredibly strong time for DC. 00:35:23.789 --> 00:35:27.409 But how has Stan Lee turned it around in the 00:35:27.409 --> 00:35:30.090 60s? And then how has he turned things around 00:35:30.090 --> 00:35:34.469 before his death? Stan Lee and Jack Kirby... 00:35:34.829 --> 00:35:39.289 started revolutionising the Marvel side of storytelling 00:35:39.289 --> 00:35:45.190 with, they started with the Fantastic Four. This 00:35:45.190 --> 00:35:49.170 is when Marvel Comics was branded in like 61 00:35:49.170 --> 00:35:52.610 and forwards. So Fantastic Four was started, 00:35:52.750 --> 00:35:56.429 then Spider -Man, then Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, 00:35:56.610 --> 00:36:00.690 X -Men, Avengers, Doctor Strange. That was all 00:36:00.690 --> 00:36:04.750 between like... 61 when Marvel Comics was started 00:36:04.750 --> 00:36:08.190 and 63 when Doctor Strange was released. And 00:36:08.190 --> 00:36:12.110 those comics carried on. They shared a universe. 00:36:12.190 --> 00:36:17.489 They all fought justice in the same world. And 00:36:17.489 --> 00:36:28.130 then around the 70s and 80s, stronger anti -heroes 00:36:28.130 --> 00:36:32.000 like the Punisher and the... Actually, it was 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.199 in the 80s that the Infinity Gauntlet saga was 00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:40.900 written. Then they had a little bit of a boom, 00:36:41.139 --> 00:36:46.099 and then they ended up having a file for bankruptcy 00:36:46.099 --> 00:36:51.500 in 96. Oh, wow. You can imagine how we could 00:36:51.500 --> 00:36:55.219 have not had any of the big cinematography from 00:36:55.219 --> 00:36:59.780 the Marvel Universe if... They didn't get the 00:36:59.780 --> 00:37:03.699 resurgence they got in like the millennium because 00:37:03.699 --> 00:37:16.380 they managed to reprise with the Civil War storylines 00:37:16.380 --> 00:37:18.800 and the House of M storylines. And then they 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:24.219 started the movies in 2008. Right. And then Disney 00:37:24.219 --> 00:37:30.019 bought them. four billion in 2009 um and then 00:37:30.019 --> 00:37:36.460 poured money into their um into the uh what's 00:37:36.460 --> 00:37:40.519 it called the marvel cinematic universe um so 00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:42.440 then that's when you ended up with the avengers 00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:45.139 films the infinity war films the end game and 00:37:45.139 --> 00:37:48.840 all the rest of it um and i hate to admit it 00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:51.019 and just be a fan boy here but those are amazing 00:37:51.019 --> 00:37:53.980 films Yeah, I mean, as far as superhero films 00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:57.940 go, they're the ones you think about. I watched 00:37:57.940 --> 00:38:01.119 all the Batman films growing up. I absolutely 00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:05.579 loved all of them. I've watched all the Superman 00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:08.800 movies. I used to watch the Superman TV show 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:13.420 that was on on a Sunday, I believe it was, with 00:38:13.420 --> 00:38:15.320 my mum. I used to watch that. I think it was 00:38:15.320 --> 00:38:18.179 the same Superman TV show that was out in the 00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:22.869 60s or 70s. Proper old productions. I know there 00:38:22.869 --> 00:38:27.349 was one that was in the 90s where Lois Lane was 00:38:27.349 --> 00:38:31.989 then in Desperate Housewives. Yeah. Yeah, or 00:38:31.989 --> 00:38:34.170 like actually the actress who played Lois Lane 00:38:34.170 --> 00:38:37.510 was then one of the Bond girls in... Is it Tomorrow 00:38:37.510 --> 00:38:40.750 Never Dies? You know what, it doesn't matter. 00:38:40.809 --> 00:38:42.269 Sorry, keep going. I don't mean to interrupt 00:38:42.269 --> 00:38:44.750 your flow. It's all good. I think it was Roger 00:38:44.750 --> 00:38:47.650 Moore, wasn't it, that was Superman? Was it Roger 00:38:47.650 --> 00:38:49.130 Moore or was it the guy that fell off the horse? 00:38:49.170 --> 00:38:52.869 I can't remember his name. It was Christopher... 00:38:52.869 --> 00:38:56.409 Christopher Reed. Christopher Reed. And it is 00:38:56.409 --> 00:38:58.449 a shame because I'll be honest with you, even 00:38:58.449 --> 00:39:00.849 in the interviews, actually comes across as a 00:39:00.849 --> 00:39:03.750 reasonably nice bloke. Yeah, but it's like, is 00:39:03.750 --> 00:39:12.070 it Henry Cavill that does The Witcher? If you 00:39:12.070 --> 00:39:15.030 talk to him in person, not that I've actually 00:39:15.030 --> 00:39:16.849 spoken to him in person, but you see him in interviews 00:39:16.849 --> 00:39:19.579 and he's such a realist. And it's really nice 00:39:19.579 --> 00:39:22.440 to talk to people like that. I get the same kind 00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:24.739 of vibe when, like, watching interviews with 00:39:24.739 --> 00:39:27.820 Christopher Reed. Like, down to earth, level 00:39:27.820 --> 00:39:32.679 -headed, not arrogant at all. Completely just 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.900 a real human being, if you know what I mean. 00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:39.420 Awesome, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I get what you're 00:39:39.420 --> 00:39:41.639 saying there, because I think the same when it 00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:46.019 comes to, like, Henry Cavill. No, that's fine. 00:39:46.179 --> 00:39:50.900 So what I'm hearing is, like, Although he wasn't 00:39:50.900 --> 00:39:55.659 one of the founders of Marvel, he wasn't the 00:39:55.659 --> 00:40:02.599 founder of Marvel, he wasn't the founder of the 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:06.320 superhero genre, but he has made the most number 00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:11.420 of successful, consistent characters which have 00:40:11.420 --> 00:40:17.960 survived through the ages with multiple With 00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:21.119 multiple retellings. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. 00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:24.659 So Stan Lee obviously was involved in so much 00:40:24.659 --> 00:40:30.480 of the... Like, you list superheroes, and 90 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:33.599 % of them have had input from Stan Lee to be 00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:37.780 able to create, you know, and drive the story 00:40:37.780 --> 00:40:42.940 forward. I didn't actually know that the Infinity 00:40:42.940 --> 00:40:47.590 Saga, like the Thanos stuff... Like, that was 00:40:47.590 --> 00:40:51.989 written back in the 80s, the 70s and 80s. It's 00:40:51.989 --> 00:40:54.409 just, I genuinely thought Disney had got hold 00:40:54.409 --> 00:40:55.889 of Marvel and gone, oh, we'll put this crazy 00:40:55.889 --> 00:40:57.550 story together. But no, no, no, they just made 00:40:57.550 --> 00:41:00.650 films of the comics that were out, like, decades 00:41:00.650 --> 00:41:05.230 before. Oh, so it's all been, it's literally 00:41:05.230 --> 00:41:08.809 all been done before. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, 00:41:08.829 --> 00:41:10.110 don't get me wrong, the films are incredible, 00:41:10.250 --> 00:41:12.929 and it's such an awesome story. If you can get 00:41:12.929 --> 00:41:16.309 your head around watching these 13 or 14 movies, 00:41:16.389 --> 00:41:20.909 then watch every single one of the Avengers and 00:41:20.909 --> 00:41:25.789 similar movies in their chronological order because 00:41:25.789 --> 00:41:32.730 it gives a really good story. Fantastic. Well, 00:41:32.809 --> 00:41:37.000 okay, I know that... Christopher Reeve's Superman 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:39.440 was considered a high point in DC history. And 00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:46.820 I will also admit, I think the TV legacy that's 00:41:46.820 --> 00:41:50.780 kind of been happening, although Marvel has caught 00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:54.079 up recently, I'd say in the last 10 years, over 00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:58.440 the last 10 years, like 2015, the retelling of 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:02.079 the Green Arrow and the Flash. Yeah. oh, sorry, 00:42:02.199 --> 00:42:06.539 which they just changed to the name Arrow, was 00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:12.099 done incredibly well. And I know that I've, by 00:42:12.099 --> 00:42:14.039 focusing too much on the beginning, I haven't 00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:16.679 looked enough at the ups and downs of DC over 00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:20.659 the years, but I just, I thought the story of 00:42:20.659 --> 00:42:24.760 the foundation was pretty damn strong. Yeah, 00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:28.260 I mean, it's pretty different to the story of 00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:34.489 the foundation of Marvel, anyway. When it comes 00:42:34.489 --> 00:42:39.070 down to it, just before we go and stuff, are 00:42:39.070 --> 00:42:41.250 you Marvel or are you DC? And has the research 00:42:41.250 --> 00:42:46.190 you've done in this changed your opinion? I was 00:42:46.190 --> 00:42:51.989 always more Marvel because I think the more modern 00:42:51.989 --> 00:42:58.730 stuff is better when it comes to Marvel. However... 00:43:00.269 --> 00:43:03.949 You've got to give respect to DC for their hand 00:43:03.949 --> 00:43:11.469 in crafting the superhero genre over, what, the 00:43:11.469 --> 00:43:18.369 best part of 80 years. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, 00:43:18.369 --> 00:43:21.929 if both of us are lucky, we'll probably be alive 00:43:21.929 --> 00:43:25.570 to see the 100th year. Yeah, that'd be pretty 00:43:25.570 --> 00:43:30.809 incredible. Pretty incredible. especially considering 00:43:30.809 --> 00:43:35.369 how many young people are engaged in the storylines 00:43:35.369 --> 00:43:41.530 nowadays. That's it. Absolutely. All right, cool. 00:43:41.670 --> 00:43:44.969 Well, I hope our listeners will forgive me, but 00:43:44.969 --> 00:43:48.110 I've got to disappear. So I hope you've enjoyed 00:43:48.110 --> 00:43:51.510 listening to me and Nick talk a little bit about 00:43:51.510 --> 00:43:54.570 the history of comic books, or at least the history 00:43:54.570 --> 00:44:00.139 of these two companies, which arguably, There 00:44:00.139 --> 00:44:02.960 is a lot outside of them, and I don't mean to 00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:06.719 minimize that, but the superhero genre. If you 00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:10.440 think comic books, you generally will think superheroes. 00:44:11.019 --> 00:44:13.940 And if you think superheroes, nowadays you will 00:44:13.940 --> 00:44:18.659 think movies. But before the movies, there were 00:44:18.659 --> 00:44:23.619 the comic books. All right. Are there any key 00:44:23.619 --> 00:44:25.300 points that you want to cover with the material 00:44:25.300 --> 00:44:27.099 that you've researched? No, no, I think I've 00:44:27.099 --> 00:44:30.420 covered everything that I had. It was a nice, 00:44:30.460 --> 00:44:34.460 easy, casual topic to get back into. I know it's 00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:37.539 been a little while since we last did one. But 00:44:37.539 --> 00:44:40.860 a nice, not -so -serious, casual topic that we 00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:43.239 can just have a chat over. It was really nice 00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:45.659 catching up. And it was really nice talking to 00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:49.940 the listeners. I hope to speak to you again soon. 00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:55.699 Hi. Speak to you again soon. And, yeah, I hope 00:44:55.699 --> 00:44:58.119 you're all doing well, listeners. Bye.