WEBVTT 00:00:01.320 --> 00:00:32.609 you You're listening to Pods with Nick and James. 00:00:34.189 --> 00:00:40.689 I'm James. Say hi, Nick. Hi, how you doing? Okay, 00:00:40.810 --> 00:00:47.649 so today's subject is one which has dominated, 00:00:47.729 --> 00:00:51.030 well, less so now, but dominated the news in 00:00:51.030 --> 00:00:58.729 early 2022. It is one which some people have... 00:00:59.039 --> 00:01:01.159 uh said is a long time coming it's definitely 00:01:01.159 --> 00:01:04.780 a topic that again the moment i've touched upon 00:01:04.780 --> 00:01:06.760 this i realized i could have split this into 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:11.140 uh seven or eight different topics but uh the 00:01:11.140 --> 00:01:13.260 topic we're going to be talking about today is 00:01:13.260 --> 00:01:18.359 the russian ukraine war um which is still ongoing 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:22.420 currently uh has been going on now for three 00:01:22.420 --> 00:01:27.519 years um just trying to get look at it try and 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:30.950 figure out How has this happened? How is it still 00:01:30.950 --> 00:01:35.730 going on? What are some of the major points that 00:01:35.730 --> 00:01:38.810 have led to this? At another point, I'll probably 00:01:38.810 --> 00:01:41.530 try and do maybe logistics of how things have 00:01:41.530 --> 00:01:44.689 started and how they're going on. But for now, 00:01:44.750 --> 00:01:47.609 we're just going to stick with a loose overview. 00:01:49.290 --> 00:01:52.769 Doing some research into this, I found that it's 00:01:52.769 --> 00:01:56.980 impossible not to come across as... uh either 00:01:56.980 --> 00:02:02.120 opinionated or ignorant so um to any of our listeners 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:04.260 out there i apologize for anything that i say 00:02:04.260 --> 00:02:08.539 that uh that may offend but just i've i've got 00:02:08.539 --> 00:02:11.280 opinions on this but once again this is one of 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:19.840 those depressing topics which like um yeah uh 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:25.300 like To be fair, like so many of the topics that 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:26.919 we've covered before, it's just turned out to 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:31.419 be confusing and a little bit depressing, a little 00:02:31.419 --> 00:02:35.120 bit like the Palestine -Israeli episode that 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:39.400 we did a good, was it a year back or like several 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:42.400 months back at least? Yeah, I think I know what 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:43.900 you're talking about, where you expect it to 00:02:43.900 --> 00:02:46.919 be quite clear -cut and there to be a good reason 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:50.560 behind why there's such conflict, and yet it's 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:54.830 really vague and muddy water. Yeah, and everybody 00:02:54.830 --> 00:02:59.050 seems to say things from a different angle. It's 00:02:59.050 --> 00:03:04.030 almost like the two different narratives for 00:03:04.030 --> 00:03:07.069 the two different sides just don't seem to have 00:03:07.069 --> 00:03:16.310 any middle ground. My two main sources for this 00:03:16.310 --> 00:03:21.210 episode was two books. So you've got the Russo 00:03:21.210 --> 00:03:29.939 -Ukrainian War. by Cyril Polsky, published by 00:03:29.939 --> 00:03:33.979 Penguin Books. And then you've got How the West 00:03:33.979 --> 00:03:38.020 Brought War to Ukraine, Understanding How US 00:03:38.020 --> 00:03:41.520 and NATO Policies Led to Crisis, War, and the 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:46.219 Risk of Nuclear Catastrophe by Benjamin Abloh. 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:52.180 Just for a couple of minutes here. the second 00:03:52.180 --> 00:04:01.699 of those books is it's well written and it's 00:04:01.699 --> 00:04:08.340 honest and it has for me it has intellectual 00:04:08.340 --> 00:04:14.300 integrity in that when it makes assertions it 00:04:14.300 --> 00:04:17.959 admits they are assertions when it makes assumptions 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:23.500 it admits they are assumptions but because of 00:04:23.500 --> 00:04:28.720 the amount that it does that it's also i wasn't 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:33.319 i i was partially convinced but i wasn't fully 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:38.259 convinced uh by that second book like the there 00:04:38.259 --> 00:04:42.000 were too many what -ifs and there were two there 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:47.959 was too much uh too much using of certain analogies 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:54.339 like um American foreign policy, how America 00:04:54.339 --> 00:04:58.740 reacts to other nations building up weapons and 00:04:58.740 --> 00:05:02.660 arms close to its border, compared to how Russia 00:05:02.660 --> 00:05:09.259 reacts to NATO building up arms on its border. 00:05:09.879 --> 00:05:12.100 And they kept on using this ridiculous analogy 00:05:12.100 --> 00:05:18.220 of, well, what would happen if Russia started 00:05:18.889 --> 00:05:24.509 doing military exercises in canada and it was 00:05:24.509 --> 00:05:26.829 just like oh well the canadians and the americans 00:05:26.829 --> 00:05:30.310 might not always get on but they share a language 00:05:30.310 --> 00:05:34.709 and that's not the border i'd go for i'd go i'd 00:05:34.709 --> 00:05:40.209 say use mexico but anyway um i get it i found 00:05:40.209 --> 00:05:43.810 a lot of the data sources as i was like uh looking 00:05:43.810 --> 00:05:47.870 through a lot of research you know i i tend to 00:05:47.870 --> 00:05:50.480 do uh research for these episodes has not really 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:54.040 come from any one particular source i i go through 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:58.079 so many different how many different sources 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:01.600 um yeah you do a lot wider anger and there's 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:03.620 some that i come across where i'm like this feels 00:06:03.620 --> 00:06:07.100 really biased really one -sided i don't want 00:06:07.100 --> 00:06:13.339 that i want um an unbiased um perspective like 00:06:13.339 --> 00:06:17.910 if it paints like that If it paints a picture 00:06:17.910 --> 00:06:23.490 that is leaning more one way or the other, fair 00:06:23.490 --> 00:06:27.389 enough. As long as it's fact -driven, and as 00:06:27.389 --> 00:06:33.509 long as it doesn't lean into emotional reaction, 00:06:33.910 --> 00:06:38.649 it's justified. I'm okay with that. But most 00:06:38.649 --> 00:06:41.930 of the time, when I was looking through the number 00:06:41.930 --> 00:06:46.459 of sources, I closed the page and moved on. because 00:06:46.459 --> 00:06:53.300 of how emotionally i'm okay with emotive language 00:06:53.300 --> 00:06:56.879 as long as it's backed up yeah don't say what's 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:58.939 what i struggle with is when like people make 00:06:58.939 --> 00:07:01.500 an accusation and then don't necessarily use 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:04.420 an example or act like it's self -evident yeah 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:08.019 which i get use people do in interpersonal arguments 00:07:08.019 --> 00:07:09.839 all the time but if you're writing something 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:13.000 in black and white about a socio -political conflict 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.759 you've got to back up yeah you've got to back 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:19.759 it up you know but anyway exactly i mean um i 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:26.860 was just exactly exactly said like um the okay 00:07:26.860 --> 00:07:29.420 to be passionate about what you're saying but 00:07:29.420 --> 00:07:43.519 when you're writing a a publicity on publication 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:54.439 on But in such a grand event, very careful, because 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:58.319 otherwise you can't. It makes it feel like propaganda. 00:07:58.779 --> 00:08:03.279 And you may well be absolutely right in what 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:07.120 you're saying, but the way that you're saying 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.519 it makes it feel like propaganda trying to make 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:18.149 me. need to be fair i got the same from some 00:08:18.149 --> 00:08:25.889 of the russian documents they were very i mean 00:08:25.889 --> 00:08:35.570 russian or they are really wrong on how wrong 00:08:35.570 --> 00:08:38.350 the world is but you look between the lines you 00:08:38.350 --> 00:08:44.330 can what points they're trying to make Some of 00:08:44.330 --> 00:08:53.309 the less bias is a bit more of a two. But yeah. 00:08:56.649 --> 00:09:00.250 Centuries, if not a millennia or more. Oh, yeah, 00:09:00.330 --> 00:09:03.009 absolutely. Like all conflicts, it's not just 00:09:03.009 --> 00:09:06.750 this one instance. Oh, exactly. Absolutely. Okay, 00:09:06.830 --> 00:09:08.870 so I tell you what, let's talk a little bit about 00:09:08.870 --> 00:09:15.490 the history of the two nations. So, Ukraine, 00:09:15.730 --> 00:09:21.990 Belarus and Russia do have intertwining and shared 00:09:21.990 --> 00:09:25.830 history. Both Belarus and Ukraine have been part 00:09:25.830 --> 00:09:32.370 of multiple Russian empires. I use that term 00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:36.429 loosely, I am saying the USSR was an empire in 00:09:36.429 --> 00:09:40.159 and of itself. And there were the historical 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:44.360 empires, and it's changed over the years. What 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:50.179 I will say, though, is that although the Crimea 00:09:50.179 --> 00:09:55.740 may have had a high Russian population recently, 00:09:55.940 --> 00:09:59.840 looking back through history at the two nations, 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:07.759 they're separate. Yeah. Like, Ukraine is a separate... 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:12.460 nation um like russia before it was even named 00:10:12.460 --> 00:10:18.600 russia by uh peter the great in like the late 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:21.519 around just after the time of the american revolution 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:29.000 like russia and ukraine like separate separate 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:33.580 languages separate similar but separate languages 00:10:33.580 --> 00:10:36.519 separate culture they were muscovites weren't 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:41.750 they yeah yeah like like this but it's just okay 00:10:41.750 --> 00:10:47.090 so yeah like ukraine is different different from 00:10:47.090 --> 00:10:52.330 russia like it's not it's not like um it has 00:10:52.330 --> 00:10:55.190 its own history england yeah like originally 00:10:55.190 --> 00:10:59.610 if you go back far enough like it was like the 00:10:59.610 --> 00:11:08.850 died in like started with the Kievan Rus', right? 00:11:09.769 --> 00:11:13.730 Yes, but even that, when the people from Moscovite, 00:11:13.870 --> 00:11:16.529 Moscovite, sorry, was that the name of? They 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:19.690 were Moscovites. Moscovites. When the Moscovites 00:11:19.690 --> 00:11:22.450 travelled back to Kiev, that's when they realised, 00:11:22.730 --> 00:11:25.370 oh shit, these people are different from us. 00:11:25.509 --> 00:11:28.809 And yet the narrative still stuck that the people 00:11:28.809 --> 00:11:31.629 were the same, and they're not. Sorry, you go 00:11:31.629 --> 00:11:34.330 though, I'm talking too much. Even the Belarus, 00:11:34.529 --> 00:11:36.029 you could say the same for the Belarus. There 00:11:36.029 --> 00:11:41.610 is distinct historical stories for each of the 00:11:41.610 --> 00:11:49.769 nations. It was the Russian Empire that kind 00:11:49.769 --> 00:11:58.029 of... Actually, that's a lie. Ukraine has gone 00:11:58.029 --> 00:12:03.019 through a number of different evolutions. a polish 00:12:03.019 --> 00:12:07.600 rule it's been alien rule and then predominantly 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:17.679 in under russian rule um and like that has been 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:23.559 an ongoing theme throughout history um the russian 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:34.450 back tried to rule i think They feel that because 00:12:34.450 --> 00:12:42.169 of the Kievan Rus history they share, they feel 00:12:42.169 --> 00:12:50.509 like their ancestral capital Kiev. And they want 00:12:50.509 --> 00:12:57.190 it, want it back. They want their... As you said, 00:12:57.210 --> 00:13:02.309 the Muscovites were a separate... They came, 00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:10.129 settled there alongside the kids and became part 00:13:10.129 --> 00:13:16.190 of the same thing, if I remember correctly. Well, 00:13:16.210 --> 00:13:21.970 I'm not certain, I'm afraid. I did some research 00:13:21.970 --> 00:13:25.730 into this, but all I know is that the ancestral 00:13:25.730 --> 00:13:30.049 homeland of... I didn't realize that Kiev was 00:13:30.049 --> 00:13:37.710 this much of a. Cultural, historical, cultural 00:13:37.710 --> 00:13:42.490 and political powerhouse and hub. I just I have 00:13:42.490 --> 00:13:46.389 to put my hands up and say, you know, I didn't 00:13:46.389 --> 00:13:51.070 know that. But it was the Mongols that overrun 00:13:51.070 --> 00:13:57.250 it. Yeah. Also, again, it's still. Still surprises 00:13:57.250 --> 00:14:03.929 me just how far -reaching the Mongols were and 00:14:03.929 --> 00:14:08.929 how many of the Eastern European countries they've 00:14:08.929 --> 00:14:12.309 kind of like literally overran at different points 00:14:12.309 --> 00:14:14.230 throughout history. Absolutely. I mean, they 00:14:14.230 --> 00:14:18.110 say Rome wasn't built in a day. Tell you what, 00:14:18.149 --> 00:14:23.350 the Mongolian Empire, bloody, was. It was sharp. 00:14:23.490 --> 00:14:25.649 It did literally cover so much of the globe. 00:14:26.509 --> 00:14:29.669 so quickly in comparison and considering they 00:14:29.669 --> 00:14:32.769 don't have modern technology it was and horse 00:14:32.769 --> 00:14:39.190 uh like and and fair in transports like hearts 00:14:39.190 --> 00:14:45.549 and foot work that they incredible but anyway 00:14:45.549 --> 00:14:52.269 we're digressing um so the russian empire effectively 00:14:52.269 --> 00:15:01.529 trained over about 200 years from about the 18th 00:15:01.529 --> 00:15:09.889 then um fell under brought under the fold of 00:15:09.889 --> 00:15:13.929 the soviet soviet union right was at the end 00:15:13.929 --> 00:15:16.850 of the russian empire the beginning of the ssr 00:15:16.850 --> 00:15:26.500 right yeah but like again it's It wasn't necessarily 00:15:26.500 --> 00:15:29.220 a smooth transition and it's not one thing ended 00:15:29.220 --> 00:15:34.039 immediately and the next thing popped up. It's 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:40.600 interesting that Ukraine has always been kind 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:46.120 of separate and it's always been Russia. I hate 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:49.019 to say it from the looks of things, like just 00:15:49.019 --> 00:15:53.190 treating Ukraine... okay so i'm going to make 00:15:53.190 --> 00:15:55.529 an analogy here and i apologize to any listeners 00:15:55.529 --> 00:16:00.590 but and this is just my opinion but the way that 00:16:00.590 --> 00:16:04.110 russia treats ukraine seems really really similar 00:16:04.110 --> 00:16:07.529 to the way that england has traditionally treated 00:16:07.529 --> 00:16:14.049 um ireland wales and scotland with just every 00:16:14.049 --> 00:16:17.990 couple of hundred years some kind of atrocity 00:16:17.990 --> 00:16:24.340 is committed by the the larger, more centralized 00:16:24.340 --> 00:16:28.519 power against the other ones. And one thing that 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:31.039 I was really surprised to learn is that even 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:38.559 during the time of Stalin, like with the movement 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.220 of resources when Ukraine was under the USSR, 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:48.139 4 million people, like Ukraine is a fertile land 00:16:48.139 --> 00:16:50.600 and at one point was the breadbasket of Europe. 00:16:51.370 --> 00:16:57.830 But during Stalin's early reign, 4 million Ukrainians 00:16:57.830 --> 00:17:03.429 were allowed to starve through the movement of 00:17:03.429 --> 00:17:07.089 resources as a way of bringing the Ukrainians 00:17:07.089 --> 00:17:12.309 to heal or to kind of stop the people from rising 00:17:12.309 --> 00:17:18.589 up. And it's just... It's ridiculous. Like, just 00:17:18.589 --> 00:17:21.700 the way... The way that neighbouring countries 00:17:21.700 --> 00:17:24.660 seem to treat each other is just absolutely. 00:17:26.619 --> 00:17:28.839 Sorry, I know that's really basic, but it was 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:30.500 just something that really surprised me because 00:17:30.500 --> 00:17:34.539 this wasn't like way back in ancient times. This 00:17:34.539 --> 00:17:39.299 is literally in the in the 20th century. And 00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:43.759 I just I honestly didn't think. I know genocides 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:48.240 happen, but I didn't realise starvation, literal 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:52.049 starvation. There was a name for it, wasn't there? 00:17:52.190 --> 00:18:15.369 I can't remember. Now I feel like I'm... Let's 00:18:15.369 --> 00:18:25.460 go over... There is a... What about more recent? 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:35.920 Look at that. What is the reason the Ukrainian 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:41.680 -Russian war actually started when it did? Okay, 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.539 so the most recent, the recent conflicts have 00:18:45.539 --> 00:18:47.680 happened for a while with the breakdown of the 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:53.319 USSR in the late 80s and early 90s. It's interesting 00:18:53.319 --> 00:19:00.180 that the old president of the USSR, in their 00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:03.519 letters and in their writings, literally saw 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:10.660 Ukraine as the latchkey. to any kind of Russian 00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:17.440 empire. The way that they put it was that without 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:25.480 Ukraine, Russia can't have an empire. With Ukraine, 00:19:25.660 --> 00:19:30.779 Russia immediately is an empire. So he kind of 00:19:30.779 --> 00:19:33.700 saw Ukraine as pivotal. And it's understandable 00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:39.119 considering... out of all of the USSR states, 00:19:39.579 --> 00:19:44.259 Ukraine was always the second. You had Russia, 00:19:44.420 --> 00:19:47.680 kind of like this absolute, you know, like the 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:51.119 area of Russia is absolutely vast. I should have 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:53.259 looked it up. Yeah, you look at a map and you 00:19:53.259 --> 00:19:56.079 go, which bits Russia, which bits Asia? No, no, 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.940 no. All the top of Asia. Yeah, that's Russia. 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:04.460 Yeah, yeah. Like Russia might as well be. Yeah, 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:09.619 if Russia was separated from all the other countries 00:20:09.619 --> 00:20:12.500 and was its own landmass, it would be considered 00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:16.180 a continent, not an island. Yeah. You know what 00:20:16.180 --> 00:20:21.900 I mean? Like, it stretches so far across the 00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:24.160 world on... You know what, even just looking 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:28.359 at this world map now, yeah, it stretches halfway 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:30.839 across the world. It used to be able to go from 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:34.599 Russia to America, didn't you, but on foot. Yeah. 00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:37.960 It used to be an ice bridge. It used to connect 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:40.299 between... That's how they made the oil pipelines 00:20:40.299 --> 00:20:46.359 between Russia and America. It's crazy. But it's... 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:50.779 Russia is massive. Ukraine is still a large country 00:20:50.779 --> 00:20:55.140 geographically. But it's just... Coming from 00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:59.420 the UK, that's not a difficult thing. Yeah. No, 00:20:59.500 --> 00:21:01.359 that's true. That's true. That's true. We're 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:07.089 tiny by comparison. But... Like, Ukraine was 00:21:07.089 --> 00:21:10.930 always, like, a surprising close second when 00:21:10.930 --> 00:21:16.089 it came to productivity, when it came to, like, 00:21:16.089 --> 00:21:20.869 when looking at the things of, like, in the early 00:21:20.869 --> 00:21:26.329 20th century, like, it was always, this is what's 00:21:26.329 --> 00:21:29.769 made in Russia. This is what's made in Ukraine. 00:21:31.349 --> 00:21:35.650 it was always surprising just how close the Ukrainians 00:21:35.650 --> 00:21:39.809 were to keeping up with the Russians. Yeah. It 00:21:39.809 --> 00:21:43.549 was just, yeah. So Ukraine seems to be like an 00:21:43.549 --> 00:21:49.509 incredibly vibrant country. And yet since the 00:21:49.509 --> 00:21:59.549 USSR broke down, Ukraine has not managed as well, 00:21:59.549 --> 00:22:05.519 has it? No. No, that's absolutely true. So Ukraine, 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:12.460 so unlike, here's another, you know what, I'm 00:22:12.460 --> 00:22:14.420 glad that, although we've got some listeners, 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:17.880 I'm glad that we don't have a huge listener base. 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:19.640 I'm not going to piss off too many people with 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:26.799 this one, but unlike Brexit, Ukraine did utilaterally 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:33.160 vote for its independence. You know, like, it's 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:36.380 interesting that the bits of Ukraine that are 00:22:36.380 --> 00:22:43.000 further away from Russia voted 80 -90 % for independence. 00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:49.200 The Crimea, which is currently part of Russia 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:56.680 and had the highest contingent of Russian people 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:07.059 within Ukraine. still voted 54 % for independence. 00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:08.480 Yeah, for independence. To be part of Ukraine. 00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:14.680 To be part of Ukraine. And yet Russia chose to... 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:21.519 What's the word? Russia chose to... I can't remember 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:29.079 the... I mean... But I'll tell you what, we'll 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.640 go for a quick timeline of events. So we won't 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.819 go back to ancient, ancient history, but we'll 00:23:35.819 --> 00:23:38.259 just say the two nations have a muddy past. The 00:23:38.259 --> 00:23:42.019 borders have moved. Russia has ruled over Ukraine 00:23:42.019 --> 00:23:44.740 at different times of history. Ukraine has never 00:23:44.740 --> 00:23:50.660 ruled over Russia, so it can't really be compared 00:23:50.660 --> 00:23:52.960 to France and England, where things have gone 00:23:52.960 --> 00:24:01.339 backwards and forwards massively. But like, okay, 00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:06.599 so the breakdown of the USSR happens. Ukraine, 00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:12.119 yeah, Ukraine goes about its business and doesn't 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.559 do so well financially, but it does at least 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:20.819 have a democratically elected government for 00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:25.039 a time, from what I've read into Russian politics. 00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:29.319 is that after the breakdown of the USSR, they 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:34.960 had a couple of people, but quite quickly, within 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:43.039 by about 1993, an individual, there's like coups 00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:46.700 in Russia, and one individual, I can't remember 00:24:46.700 --> 00:24:50.859 his exact name, but he basically, I hate to say 00:24:50.859 --> 00:24:57.279 it, does a Palpatine. literally, despite being 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.180 held back by two different governing bodies, 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.259 literally says, I'm going to give myself emergency 00:25:03.259 --> 00:25:09.059 powers. Gives himself emergency powers and then 00:25:09.059 --> 00:25:13.960 just stops listening. And the democratically 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:17.279 parts of the Russian government can't get enough 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.940 majority in order to impeach and get him out. 00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:23.799 Well, the year I made him was. Yeah. Yeah, sorry, 00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:29.099 that is it. Yeah, no, that's it. That is it. 00:25:32.380 --> 00:25:38.559 That's it. That's the bloke. Okay, so you got 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:43.259 that happening in the 90s. A lot more, unfortunately, 00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:49.240 negative stuff happened with Croatia and a lot 00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:53.589 of other eastern countries. Bad things happen 00:25:53.589 --> 00:25:56.170 there. We'll cover that in another episode at 00:25:56.170 --> 00:26:00.809 some point if we get round to it. Things keep 00:26:00.809 --> 00:26:07.930 going. Now, things start to get hairy as more 00:26:07.930 --> 00:26:17.809 nations join NATO. Now, America, American foreign 00:26:17.809 --> 00:26:24.620 policy is somewhat contradictory in that They 00:26:24.620 --> 00:26:28.119 react very poorly to people building up weapons 00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:33.839 close to their borders. Yet they expect other 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.660 countries to be fine when they do it. If you 00:26:38.660 --> 00:26:40.900 go back, the time period I'm going to focus at 00:26:40.900 --> 00:26:46.500 now is the early 2000s. Right, yeah. When Ukraine 00:26:46.500 --> 00:26:50.500 starts to show an interest in joining NATO. And 00:26:50.500 --> 00:26:58.500 America keeps on running large -scale military 00:26:58.500 --> 00:27:04.960 exercises in NATO countries. And specifically, 00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:12.500 they start setting up missile systems, surface 00:27:12.500 --> 00:27:16.720 -to -surface missiles with hundreds of miles 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:23.079 of range. not hundreds of miles from the russian 00:27:23.079 --> 00:27:31.039 border yeah which in and of itself like i don't 00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:34.720 blame russia for their initial response of saying 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:39.779 this is not okay um there was a famous paper 00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:47.660 a famous um exchange where uh the russian I think 00:27:47.660 --> 00:27:50.420 foreign minister literally said, nyet means nyet, 00:27:50.579 --> 00:27:56.160 which is literally no means no. With all due 00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:59.519 respect, if somebody is waving a gun at you, 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:01.920 you're going to be ducking down out of the way, 00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:04.279 holding your hand out, going, oh no, stop, stop. 00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:07.880 Even if they say to you, it's not loaded, mate. 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:13.319 It's not loaded. No, that's it. That's it. But 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:17.210 it's also like, it's the capabilities. Why put 00:28:17.210 --> 00:28:22.089 missile systems which can... And this is the 00:28:22.089 --> 00:28:26.130 annoying thing. The tactical flexibility of these 00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:28.869 systems, I understand. I understand why a military 00:28:28.869 --> 00:28:32.630 commander would want these missile systems which 00:28:32.630 --> 00:28:37.869 can have thermonuclear missiles in them. Yeah. 00:28:37.970 --> 00:28:43.690 But you don't put those on your border. You know? 00:28:43.869 --> 00:28:47.569 Yeah. You don't... Yeah, like that's... When 00:28:47.569 --> 00:28:54.309 Russia did it in Cuba, what did America do? Freaks 00:28:54.309 --> 00:28:57.910 the fuck out. Sorry, I think is the technical 00:28:57.910 --> 00:29:01.490 term. But it's pot kettle black, isn't it? Yeah. 00:29:02.309 --> 00:29:05.369 Yeah, and it's just, it's ridiculous. So I completely 00:29:05.369 --> 00:29:11.210 understand. But what I love is that Russia went 00:29:11.210 --> 00:29:15.289 to the United Nations. And again, this is so 00:29:15.289 --> 00:29:17.470 bad that I'm sorry that I've only heard this 00:29:17.470 --> 00:29:23.349 and not written it down properly. But I'm not 00:29:23.349 --> 00:29:25.250 going to pretend that I'm a massive fan of Putin. 00:29:25.410 --> 00:29:29.049 He's literally taken his country into war. But 00:29:29.049 --> 00:29:34.269 in 2007, he brought something to the UN's and 00:29:34.269 --> 00:29:37.230 to the European Union's attention. And he tried 00:29:37.230 --> 00:29:44.409 to get everybody to sign a missile accord. saying 00:29:44.409 --> 00:29:49.470 that, okay, look, none of us, nobody, is going 00:29:49.470 --> 00:29:57.470 to put nuclear missile facilities next to each 00:29:57.470 --> 00:30:05.410 other's borders. And even if the phrasing in 00:30:05.410 --> 00:30:09.369 it was unfair, even if the demands of it were 00:30:09.369 --> 00:30:16.829 ridiculous, he still went, peaceably to the world 00:30:16.829 --> 00:30:24.430 stage and tried to do things legally slash get 00:30:24.430 --> 00:30:27.809 an accord going so that people weren't putting 00:30:27.809 --> 00:30:31.930 nuclear weapons or missile systems which can 00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:36.269 easily contain nuclear weapons on the border 00:30:36.269 --> 00:30:40.279 of his country i think that That was reasonable. 00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:42.299 That's where the reasonableness stops by the 00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:46.619 end. But the very fact that he did that. I can't 00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:50.539 say I can't fault that, you know. And then later, 00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:54.059 when people are accusing him of coming up with 00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:57.039 a false narrative, elements of of the narrative 00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:01.940 spoken are false. But there are there is I completely 00:31:01.940 --> 00:31:05.759 understand he why he would possibly feel or why 00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:10.960 the Russian people could quite easily feel. by 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:18.039 the North Atlantic Task Force beginning to put 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:22.900 assault weapons on their border and then claiming 00:31:22.900 --> 00:31:26.900 it's self -defence. Likewise, though, I also 00:31:26.900 --> 00:31:31.119 can understand why NATO is a little bit scared 00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:38.200 because another source of mine is a podcast called... 00:31:39.889 --> 00:31:44.250 Trigonometry. And they talk a little bit about 00:31:44.250 --> 00:31:52.869 Russia's military potential. Russia is making 00:31:52.869 --> 00:31:57.430 more shells than the whole of Europe, or sorry, 00:31:57.470 --> 00:32:02.670 the whole of NATO and America combined. Which 00:32:02.670 --> 00:32:05.130 is terrifying. And they are upping their production 00:32:05.130 --> 00:32:08.650 all the time. So again, it's... It's frustrating 00:32:08.650 --> 00:32:14.250 that we've got this standoff of two powers which 00:32:14.250 --> 00:32:18.430 are upping their military capacity, one through 00:32:18.430 --> 00:32:23.930 the placement of weapons of... possible weapons 00:32:23.930 --> 00:32:27.690 of mass destruction, and another through the 00:32:27.690 --> 00:32:30.769 mass production of weapons on the ground. Yeah. 00:32:30.869 --> 00:32:37.460 And it's annoying. Didn't Russia suggest... a 00:32:37.460 --> 00:32:45.720 joint missile base in Azerbaijan as a compromise 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:56.279 for the US building these missile bases in Europe. 00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:58.819 They basically said, look, we don't like it, 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:03.839 but we understand that you need them for the 00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:08.559 rogue states that you're coming up against. But 00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:12.019 if you feel that way, rather than do it on your 00:33:12.019 --> 00:33:14.640 own, right on our doorstep, why don't we do it 00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:19.259 over there and we'll do it... I mean, if that's 00:33:19.259 --> 00:33:22.539 the case, that would have been a better... And 00:33:22.539 --> 00:33:25.440 then it was rejected by the US. That it wasn't 00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:36.839 in a good enough position to be beneficial. I 00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:39.700 mean, that does just sound like a cop -out, doesn't 00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:43.319 it? But again, I haven't seen the military report, 00:33:43.500 --> 00:33:48.559 so I wouldn't know. But if, I don't know, if 00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:52.480 the two, if the world's two largest powers are 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:57.960 America and Russia, and assuming, yeah, well, 00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.660 it would be China now, yeah. But assuming that 00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:07.579 that, if that's the case, if you're... frustrating 00:34:07.579 --> 00:34:12.579 the world's other superpower and they come up 00:34:12.579 --> 00:34:16.579 with a compromise. Although it's not the military 00:34:16.579 --> 00:34:19.179 way of doing things, the diplomatic way would 00:34:19.179 --> 00:34:24.500 be to shake their hand off. Yeah. Like, I don't 00:34:24.500 --> 00:34:26.639 know. It just, all right, but sorry. Anyway, 00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:33.039 after 2007, Russia continues to get frustrated. 00:34:35.630 --> 00:34:40.530 America apparently backs a number of coups in 00:34:40.530 --> 00:34:46.909 Ukraine, and a pro -Russian democratic government 00:34:46.909 --> 00:34:53.590 is overthrown by an ultra -nationalistic government. 00:34:57.250 --> 00:35:00.409 I don't know the exact parties, I don't know 00:35:00.409 --> 00:35:02.849 the exact details, but I know that that happened, 00:35:02.889 --> 00:35:06.150 that there was a pro -Russian government. And 00:35:06.150 --> 00:35:10.309 it has been replaced through revolution. How 00:35:10.309 --> 00:35:13.690 much the US has actually been involved with that, 00:35:13.730 --> 00:35:17.949 I don't know. It sounds like political assassination. 00:35:18.010 --> 00:35:25.590 It's a technique where the American government 00:35:25.590 --> 00:35:31.969 essentially depose a leader and then appoint 00:35:31.969 --> 00:35:36.519 one of their own. For lack of a better term. 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:43.199 Yeah, or somebody who is not even... Is pro -America. 00:35:43.780 --> 00:35:47.059 Yeah, pro -America or whoever, whatever fits 00:35:47.059 --> 00:35:51.340 their needs at the time. Yeah. And sometimes 00:35:51.340 --> 00:35:53.400 that backfires horribly on them, but we'll go 00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:57.119 into those at another point. So you've then got 00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:01.719 this very anti -Russian government on Russia's 00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:05.989 border. Unsurprisingly, the Russians get more 00:36:05.989 --> 00:36:18.309 frustrated by this. And eventually they do literally 00:36:18.309 --> 00:36:26.250 annex Crimea in 2014. And that causes a huge 00:36:26.250 --> 00:36:31.050 amount of... Well, it's still an invasion of 00:36:31.050 --> 00:36:34.639 sorts. There's a large amount of Russian people 00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:43.280 in Crimea. It's not entirely bloodless, but it's 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:48.739 at least quick, is my understanding. Yeah, there's 00:36:48.739 --> 00:36:50.059 not a lot that could have been done about it. 00:36:51.019 --> 00:36:59.360 Yeah. Kind of like, well, this is ours now. Yeah. 00:37:00.460 --> 00:37:08.690 That's it. What is weird is that... How do you 00:37:08.690 --> 00:37:11.269 pronounce it? Is it Zelensky? Zelensky, yep. 00:37:12.010 --> 00:37:18.889 Zelensky. He came to power with a huge... Like, 00:37:18.889 --> 00:37:21.690 he was voted in, again, massively. But he came 00:37:21.690 --> 00:37:23.889 under one of his campaign promises, was peace. 00:37:26.050 --> 00:37:31.639 And yet somehow during his reign... not his reign 00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:37.260 somehow through that Russia for some reason decided 00:37:37.260 --> 00:37:44.380 that he wasn't going to stick to his guns and 00:37:44.380 --> 00:37:48.659 there just seems to be a breakdown like Zelensky 00:37:48.659 --> 00:37:53.980 has now said on multiple occasions that he doesn't 00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:59.639 trust President Putin to honour any agreement 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:03.860 that they make which kind of makes peace accords 00:38:03.860 --> 00:38:08.360 like if neither side trusts each other at all 00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:12.559 there's no kind of way for a peace accord to 00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:16.820 be to be found i mean i understand when dealing 00:38:16.820 --> 00:38:23.119 with putin i understand the anxiety given how 00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:31.159 paranoid putin if Can't trust you. Can't trust 00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:36.800 him. There's never going to be that. That piece. 00:38:39.900 --> 00:38:43.500 Yeah, that's it. Because it's built on respect 00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:56.659 and Putin is constantly older. Aye. What I do 00:38:56.659 --> 00:39:00.280 find Interesting. What I find kind of ridiculous 00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:04.840 is that the two sides are at this stalemate. 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:09.980 At the beginning of the war, sorry, after Crimea, 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:14.820 it's then only, it's eight years, and then Russia 00:39:14.820 --> 00:39:20.840 invades Ukraine. And I don't know about you, 00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:23.420 but I remember hearing so many ridiculous stories. 00:39:24.139 --> 00:39:26.460 About, like, are all the Russian tanks breaking 00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:30.699 down or them running out of petrol? Yeah. Or... 00:39:30.699 --> 00:39:35.320 You know, I basically hear about the initial 00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:40.960 invasion being pretty much a disaster. A flop. 00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:48.159 Complete flop. And yet, after an embarrassment 00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:53.639 like that, the war's still going on. and then 00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:55.739 months later russians have taken more ground 00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:58.380 and then they've taken more ground and then there's 00:39:58.380 --> 00:40:03.860 this that and the other and then we're um we're 00:40:03.860 --> 00:40:06.260 sending all of our supplies to ukraine and we're 00:40:06.260 --> 00:40:11.820 offering um ukrainians like um special because 00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:13.760 they're because they're fluent fleeing well to 00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:16.500 be fair many refugees are fleeing war zones but 00:40:16.500 --> 00:40:18.760 because of the media attention on this one and 00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:23.989 because i don't know because of the the strength 00:40:23.989 --> 00:40:28.289 of the narrative that it's just russian expansionism 00:40:28.289 --> 00:40:33.389 um and it is that to a point but it's also the 00:40:33.389 --> 00:40:35.710 policies and stuff that with that have been put 00:40:35.710 --> 00:40:38.530 in place on them again i don't think it's a clear 00:40:38.530 --> 00:40:42.349 -cut thing one way or the other but i i don't 00:40:42.349 --> 00:40:44.730 think the actually you know what that's another 00:40:44.730 --> 00:40:48.949 question do you feel the no that's going off 00:40:48.949 --> 00:40:50.750 top right okay i'll bring back a question in 00:40:50.750 --> 00:40:56.300 a second Okay, so what really surprises me is 00:40:56.300 --> 00:41:00.739 that the war is still ongoing. And that... I'm 00:41:00.739 --> 00:41:03.260 going to get on my soapbox a little bit. Yeah, 00:41:03.260 --> 00:41:05.079 by all means. I'm going to get on my soapbox 00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:08.760 a little bit because people quite often look 00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:18.920 at... They go... Why... A war... Look at a fight 00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:21.809 in the playground, right? basically you punch 00:41:21.809 --> 00:41:28.130 him he punches you it hurts you go ow and that's 00:41:28.130 --> 00:41:35.889 the end right um like a war is a like a big fight 00:41:35.889 --> 00:41:38.989 in a playground right you'd expect so you drop 00:41:38.989 --> 00:41:41.389 a few bombs they drop a few bombs you shoot a 00:41:41.389 --> 00:41:44.369 few people and then somebody goes ow that really 00:41:44.369 --> 00:41:48.699 hurts please stop and that's the end of it Apart 00:41:48.699 --> 00:41:52.239 from the fact that the longer a war goes on for, 00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:59.539 the more money it makes. The more time that war 00:41:59.539 --> 00:42:02.639 goes on for, the more arms are needed, the more 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:05.699 vehicles are needed, the more bombs are needed, 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.880 the more bullets are needed, etc. And it is a 00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:16.019 massive money -making enterprise. So, when you 00:42:16.019 --> 00:42:20.480 know that There are literally governments around 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:23.659 the world that are funded by organisations that 00:42:23.659 --> 00:42:30.559 make money from war. They're going to want wars 00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:35.119 to continue as long a period as possible in order 00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:39.539 to maximise that profit margin, maximise the 00:42:39.539 --> 00:42:44.039 funding that they get. That's the really sickening 00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:47.179 thing about war that most people... just overlook 00:42:47.179 --> 00:42:51.019 with considering why is a war going on for so 00:42:51.019 --> 00:42:54.059 long because it makes a lot of people a lot of 00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:59.800 money that's why but it makes a lot of i'd say 00:42:59.800 --> 00:43:03.239 more people die than what than people who are 00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:06.119 made rich in war like honestly enough and i realize 00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:08.900 a lot of money has been sent to ukraine yeah 00:43:08.900 --> 00:43:12.380 absolutely honestly though like that's irrelevant 00:43:13.809 --> 00:43:22.530 to the people who make the money. There are 8 00:43:22.530 --> 00:43:28.809 billion people in this. And the people that make 00:43:28.809 --> 00:43:33.050 the money from war are a very, very, very small 00:43:33.050 --> 00:43:40.550 handful of poor money. And all of those lives 00:43:40.550 --> 00:43:47.679 are worth. And that's not me saying I don't care. 00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:52.539 I'm saying that's their attitude. I do not want 00:43:52.539 --> 00:43:57.360 to be misquoted. OK, like, fine. What I what 00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:00.280 I don't understand is fine. So you talk about 00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:07.500 like the industrial. What's it called? Military 00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:11.039 industrial industrial complex. Yeah, the industrial 00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:13.780 military complex. Yeah, making money from this 00:44:13.780 --> 00:44:16.500 conflict. But it's the industrial military complex 00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:20.280 of other countries. Yeah. Like... It's not countries. 00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:22.800 It's not countries. It's companies. Corporate 00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:26.079 of companies. Yeah, yeah. But how... Okay, but... 00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:34.099 Russia... Okay, so... Russia's a powerful nature, 00:44:34.179 --> 00:44:37.579 but I don't think... Is it in... where where 00:44:37.579 --> 00:44:39.440 are they top you know i'm just going to type 00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:57.119 in top 10 gdpr no that's not okay but you know 00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:47.409 it's gross annual it's not gdpr cars capital 00:45:47.409 --> 00:45:53.489 according to the russia's 47th yeah and total 00:45:53.489 --> 00:46:06.159 wealth total wealth russia's 18th okay so Okay, 00:46:06.219 --> 00:46:09.780 so considering that, and considering that... 00:46:09.780 --> 00:46:21.380 Russia isn't Nazi Germany, but I'm going on the... 00:46:21.380 --> 00:46:32.019 It's the last big... No. Okay, it's the last 00:46:32.019 --> 00:46:38.019 massive... conflict between two large -scale 00:46:38.019 --> 00:46:45.300 factions within um within western europe i now 00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:47.159 realize it's eastern europe and i realize a lot 00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:50.219 of other things have gone on but from my own 00:46:50.219 --> 00:46:55.800 ignorant mind comparing it to world war ii that 00:46:55.800 --> 00:47:01.539 that war in that war hitler built up the uh the 00:47:01.539 --> 00:47:06.940 german The German war machine and made the country 00:47:06.940 --> 00:47:12.780 incredibly industrial and warlike. And yet still, 00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:16.940 that war machine would have collapsed without 00:47:16.940 --> 00:47:25.840 helps of certain banks back in 1943. Yeah. Four 00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:29.539 years after it started. What I'm wondering is... 00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:38.159 What I'm wondering is, since Russia is... Sorry, 00:47:38.219 --> 00:47:43.760 what was it GDPR -wise? Was it 47th? 47th. And 00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:48.599 yet, despite its huge landmass, huge landmass, 00:47:48.820 --> 00:47:58.000 is 18th in the total wealth, how are these two 00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:06.050 countries... Because companies make money, yeah? 00:48:06.309 --> 00:48:11.230 Yeah. But the governments themselves don't. They 00:48:11.230 --> 00:48:16.570 spend money. They spend money. And I realise 00:48:16.570 --> 00:48:20.769 that we have dropped... We've sent money to Ukraine. 00:48:20.789 --> 00:48:25.510 We've all sent money to Ukraine in England. But 00:48:25.510 --> 00:48:32.260 how are both sides... still going at this point 00:48:32.260 --> 00:48:36.599 you know considering that it's not a worldwide 00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:44.000 conflict you know like you can in order for countries 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:48.360 to become fast as neutral they have to provide 00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:54.940 um equal um support to both sides of the war 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:11.800 okay all right well it it frustrates uh it frustrates 00:49:11.800 --> 00:49:15.940 me that it's still it's still going on and that 00:49:15.940 --> 00:49:22.199 with you know like what what prompted me to choose 00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:24.820 this as a topic and looking at the background 00:49:24.820 --> 00:49:27.500 of this topic was first off my own ignorance 00:49:27.500 --> 00:49:29.840 second off that i hadn't heard much about it 00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:32.780 in the news and third off I chose this topic 00:49:32.780 --> 00:49:36.099 during the most recent peace talks a couple of 00:49:36.099 --> 00:49:40.480 weeks ago at this point, when I was hoping that 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:42.340 the war was coming to an end and we could do 00:49:42.340 --> 00:49:45.619 a nice overview of it. Was that during a time 00:49:45.619 --> 00:49:51.420 when Trump actively verbally placed himself? 00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:59.659 Are you going to fall over if I walk away? No, 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.340 it was short, but it was a couple of weeks after 00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:08.420 that. So it was a similar time. I don't think 00:50:08.420 --> 00:50:12.800 Trump necessarily was involved. It was Zelensky 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:20.219 and Putin possibly going to the table to talk 00:50:20.219 --> 00:50:24.480 about peace. And there was supposed to be a ceasefire 00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:31.929 over three days. Both sides have reported that 00:50:31.929 --> 00:50:35.849 the other has broken that ceasefire dozens upon 00:50:35.849 --> 00:50:39.550 dozens of times. So it looks like the whole thing 00:50:39.550 --> 00:50:42.809 was a bit of a farce, but when I heard peace 00:50:42.809 --> 00:50:48.909 talks were happening, literally, my heart kind 00:50:48.909 --> 00:50:58.110 of raised. So, although I don't... I don't necessarily 00:50:58.110 --> 00:51:02.230 see the Ukraine war as solely Russian expansion. 00:51:03.630 --> 00:51:06.230 What's your views on it? Like, do you see it... 00:51:06.230 --> 00:51:10.449 How much do you think, from the research that 00:51:10.449 --> 00:51:13.690 you've done into Russians' narrative of them 00:51:13.690 --> 00:51:18.170 being backed into a corner and wanting to demilitarize 00:51:18.170 --> 00:51:23.380 Ukraine... How much do you feel the West is responsible? 00:51:23.659 --> 00:51:27.840 How much do you feel Russia is responsible? And 00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:30.019 do you think there's an end in sight? Well, I 00:51:30.019 --> 00:51:38.679 didn't know until America played cards that way. 00:51:40.739 --> 00:51:45.780 I don't know, but I think that there is a power 00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:52.730 in America building bases for other people. right 00:51:52.730 --> 00:52:01.329 on your um threatened or threat pause acromo 00:52:01.329 --> 00:52:12.190 option um would mean box would start turning 00:52:12.190 --> 00:52:23.320 action um though i don't agree with the asian 00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:28.840 of you i can understand why it happened why it 00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:32.480 has come about both from a historical element 00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:37.619 um the fact that it like people in you to get 00:52:37.619 --> 00:52:45.820 hung up on oracle ties um and um name ownership 00:52:45.820 --> 00:52:51.039 things that because they've they've like the 00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:54.559 fact that They were visitors to that nation. 00:52:55.619 --> 00:53:09.679 I think the provocation was there. My reaction 00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:16.239 came on long enough. Oh, absolutely. I don't 00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:38.599 think... Russian listeners, Russian army, there's 00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:43.480 never, I mean, I'm a personal advocate for armies 00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:47.719 to be abolished because you only need an army 00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:50.659 because somebody else, yeah, you only need an 00:53:50.659 --> 00:53:53.039 army because somebody else has an army and this 00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:55.159 is the 21st century for Christ's sake, please. 00:53:56.139 --> 00:54:04.320 Just sit down and talk through problems. And 00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:11.300 even if you don't agree, compromise. Find a means 00:54:11.300 --> 00:54:17.699 to get past it. It shouldn't be worthy of... 00:54:17.699 --> 00:54:29.380 Yeah. That's a fair point. That's a fair point. 00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:36.659 And to be fair, although I... I can understand 00:54:36.659 --> 00:54:41.219 people who have respect for military backgrounds, 00:54:42.659 --> 00:54:45.099 military traditions, military pride, but that 00:54:45.099 --> 00:54:49.099 should be secondary to human life. Like, absolutely. 00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:56.139 Like, it just... You can also argue about the 00:54:56.139 --> 00:55:01.360 needs for certain... For the ability to... For 00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:07.940 the ability to fight. But at the same time, there's 00:55:07.940 --> 00:55:11.960 got to be peaceable ways of dealing with situations. 00:55:12.179 --> 00:55:18.340 And I don't think anyone can take endlessly, 00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:23.789 you know, without realising that they're... that 00:55:23.789 --> 00:55:26.070 they're doing something wrong. Like, I don't 00:55:26.070 --> 00:55:28.949 believe that all people are necessarily inherently 00:55:28.949 --> 00:55:33.090 good, but I also don't think that anybody is 00:55:33.090 --> 00:55:44.929 pure evil. You know? And do what, right? If Russia 00:55:44.929 --> 00:55:51.369 can go home, then I can... All got that, mate. 00:55:53.289 --> 00:55:55.090 Not even that, mate. They're just someone who 00:55:55.090 --> 00:55:58.789 hangs around with you. They're there, and they're 00:55:58.789 --> 00:56:02.750 annoying as hell, and stupid things, question 00:56:02.750 --> 00:56:09.530 one. Yeah. If somebody were to start on that 00:56:09.530 --> 00:56:17.469 person, still defend them, it might be a dick. 00:56:19.849 --> 00:56:26.199 They're yours, and... but you look after one 00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:31.400 of you and get to the point where you accept 00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:34.480 the fact that people are different and you're 00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:37.219 not always going to want to abandon them but 00:56:37.219 --> 00:56:40.900 you are going to respect the fact that they are 00:56:40.900 --> 00:56:59.150 their own entity get past i don't know i don't 00:56:59.150 --> 00:57:07.190 know maybe um definitely think conflict is better 00:57:07.190 --> 00:57:14.570 settled with words that's easy to get easy thing 00:57:14.570 --> 00:57:21.150 to get behind do you think that the um How long 00:57:21.150 --> 00:57:23.309 do you think that this particular conflict will 00:57:23.309 --> 00:57:25.889 continue going on for? Do you think we've got, 00:57:25.969 --> 00:57:30.409 you know, do you think it's months, years? I 00:57:30.409 --> 00:57:38.309 think there are a few more surprises. Yeah. Okay. 00:57:39.190 --> 00:57:44.190 All right. Well, thank you for listening, everybody. 00:57:45.130 --> 00:57:50.139 I've gone through a fair amount of... of material 00:57:50.139 --> 00:57:53.219 i realize this one's been a little bit uh more 00:57:53.219 --> 00:57:56.260 haphazard but it's uh hopefully you've gotten 00:57:56.260 --> 00:58:02.760 a a basic uh build up or the basic timeline um 00:58:02.760 --> 00:58:08.659 towards uh the invasion uh the russian uh invasion 00:58:08.659 --> 00:58:15.260 of ukraine in uh 2022 and will uh if when the 00:58:15.260 --> 00:58:18.440 if the war ends when we're still doing this podcast. 00:58:18.539 --> 00:58:20.179 I'm very much hoping it does. We'll definitely 00:58:20.179 --> 00:58:25.019 cover this again. Yeah, Nick, thank you very 00:58:25.019 --> 00:58:28.460 much for your time and for your chance. And we'll 00:58:28.460 --> 00:58:31.639 end it here for there. Everybody that has listened, 00:58:31.739 --> 00:58:34.159 take care. Bye -bye.