you You're listening to Pods with Nick and James.
I'm James. Say hi, Nick. Hi, how you doing? Okay,
so today's subject is one which has dominated,
well, less so now, but dominated the news in
early 2022. It is one which some people have...
uh said is a long time coming it's definitely
a topic that again the moment i've touched upon
this i realized i could have split this into
uh seven or eight different topics but uh the
topic we're going to be talking about today is
the russian ukraine war um which is still ongoing
currently uh has been going on now for three
years um just trying to get look at it try and
figure out How has this happened? How is it still
going on? What are some of the major points that
have led to this? At another point, I'll probably
try and do maybe logistics of how things have
started and how they're going on. But for now,
we're just going to stick with a loose overview.
Doing some research into this, I found that it's
impossible not to come across as... uh either
opinionated or ignorant so um to any of our listeners
out there i apologize for anything that i say
that uh that may offend but just i've i've got
opinions on this but once again this is one of
those depressing topics which like um yeah uh
like To be fair, like so many of the topics that
we've covered before, it's just turned out to
be confusing and a little bit depressing, a little
bit like the Palestine -Israeli episode that
we did a good, was it a year back or like several
months back at least? Yeah, I think I know what
you're talking about, where you expect it to
be quite clear -cut and there to be a good reason
behind why there's such conflict, and yet it's
really vague and muddy water. Yeah, and everybody
seems to say things from a different angle. It's
almost like the two different narratives for
the two different sides just don't seem to have
any middle ground. My two main sources for this
episode was two books. So you've got the Russo
-Ukrainian War. by Cyril Polsky, published by
Penguin Books. And then you've got How the West
Brought War to Ukraine, Understanding How US
and NATO Policies Led to Crisis, War, and the
Risk of Nuclear Catastrophe by Benjamin Abloh.
Just for a couple of minutes here. the second
of those books is it's well written and it's
honest and it has for me it has intellectual
integrity in that when it makes assertions it
admits they are assertions when it makes assumptions
it admits they are assumptions but because of
the amount that it does that it's also i wasn't
i i was partially convinced but i wasn't fully
convinced uh by that second book like the there
were too many what -ifs and there were two there
was too much uh too much using of certain analogies
like um American foreign policy, how America
reacts to other nations building up weapons and
arms close to its border, compared to how Russia
reacts to NATO building up arms on its border.
And they kept on using this ridiculous analogy
of, well, what would happen if Russia started
doing military exercises in canada and it was
just like oh well the canadians and the americans
might not always get on but they share a language
and that's not the border i'd go for i'd go i'd
say use mexico but anyway um i get it i found
a lot of the data sources as i was like uh looking
through a lot of research you know i i tend to
do uh research for these episodes has not really
come from any one particular source i i go through
so many different how many different sources
um yeah you do a lot wider anger and there's
some that i come across where i'm like this feels
really biased really one -sided i don't want
that i want um an unbiased um perspective like
if it paints like that If it paints a picture
that is leaning more one way or the other, fair
enough. As long as it's fact -driven, and as
long as it doesn't lean into emotional reaction,
it's justified. I'm okay with that. But most
of the time, when I was looking through the number
of sources, I closed the page and moved on. because
of how emotionally i'm okay with emotive language
as long as it's backed up yeah don't say what's
what i struggle with is when like people make
an accusation and then don't necessarily use
an example or act like it's self -evident yeah
which i get use people do in interpersonal arguments
all the time but if you're writing something
in black and white about a socio -political conflict
you've got to back up yeah you've got to back
it up you know but anyway exactly i mean um i
was just exactly exactly said like um the okay
to be passionate about what you're saying but
when you're writing a a publicity on publication
on But in such a grand event, very careful, because
otherwise you can't. It makes it feel like propaganda.
And you may well be absolutely right in what
you're saying, but the way that you're saying
it makes it feel like propaganda trying to make
me. need to be fair i got the same from some
of the russian documents they were very i mean
russian or they are really wrong on how wrong
the world is but you look between the lines you
can what points they're trying to make Some of
the less bias is a bit more of a two. But yeah.
Centuries, if not a millennia or more. Oh, yeah,
absolutely. Like all conflicts, it's not just
this one instance. Oh, exactly. Absolutely. Okay,
so I tell you what, let's talk a little bit about
the history of the two nations. So, Ukraine,
Belarus and Russia do have intertwining and shared
history. Both Belarus and Ukraine have been part
of multiple Russian empires. I use that term
loosely, I am saying the USSR was an empire in
and of itself. And there were the historical
empires, and it's changed over the years. What
I will say, though, is that although the Crimea
may have had a high Russian population recently,
looking back through history at the two nations,
they're separate. Yeah. Like, Ukraine is a separate...
nation um like russia before it was even named
russia by uh peter the great in like the late
around just after the time of the american revolution
like russia and ukraine like separate separate
languages separate similar but separate languages
separate culture they were muscovites weren't
they yeah yeah like like this but it's just okay
so yeah like ukraine is different different from
russia like it's not it's not like um it has
its own history england yeah like originally
if you go back far enough like it was like the
died in like started with the Kievan Rus', right?
Yes, but even that, when the people from Moscovite,
Moscovite, sorry, was that the name of? They
were Moscovites. Moscovites. When the Moscovites
travelled back to Kiev, that's when they realised,
oh shit, these people are different from us.
And yet the narrative still stuck that the people
were the same, and they're not. Sorry, you go
though, I'm talking too much. Even the Belarus,
you could say the same for the Belarus. There
is distinct historical stories for each of the
nations. It was the Russian Empire that kind
of... Actually, that's a lie. Ukraine has gone
through a number of different evolutions. a polish
rule it's been alien rule and then predominantly
in under russian rule um and like that has been
an ongoing theme throughout history um the russian
back tried to rule i think They feel that because
of the Kievan Rus history they share, they feel
like their ancestral capital Kiev. And they want
it, want it back. They want their... As you said,
the Muscovites were a separate... They came,
settled there alongside the kids and became part
of the same thing, if I remember correctly. Well,
I'm not certain, I'm afraid. I did some research
into this, but all I know is that the ancestral
homeland of... I didn't realize that Kiev was
this much of a. Cultural, historical, cultural
and political powerhouse and hub. I just I have
to put my hands up and say, you know, I didn't
know that. But it was the Mongols that overrun
it. Yeah. Also, again, it's still. Still surprises
me just how far -reaching the Mongols were and
how many of the Eastern European countries they've
kind of like literally overran at different points
throughout history. Absolutely. I mean, they
say Rome wasn't built in a day. Tell you what,
the Mongolian Empire, bloody, was. It was sharp.
It did literally cover so much of the globe.
so quickly in comparison and considering they
don't have modern technology it was and horse
uh like and and fair in transports like hearts
and foot work that they incredible but anyway
we're digressing um so the russian empire effectively
trained over about 200 years from about the 18th
then um fell under brought under the fold of
the soviet soviet union right was at the end
of the russian empire the beginning of the ssr
right yeah but like again it's It wasn't necessarily
a smooth transition and it's not one thing ended
immediately and the next thing popped up. It's
interesting that Ukraine has always been kind
of separate and it's always been Russia. I hate
to say it from the looks of things, like just
treating Ukraine... okay so i'm going to make
an analogy here and i apologize to any listeners
but and this is just my opinion but the way that
russia treats ukraine seems really really similar
to the way that england has traditionally treated
um ireland wales and scotland with just every
couple of hundred years some kind of atrocity
is committed by the the larger, more centralized
power against the other ones. And one thing that
I was really surprised to learn is that even
during the time of Stalin, like with the movement
of resources when Ukraine was under the USSR,
4 million people, like Ukraine is a fertile land
and at one point was the breadbasket of Europe.
But during Stalin's early reign, 4 million Ukrainians
were allowed to starve through the movement of
resources as a way of bringing the Ukrainians
to heal or to kind of stop the people from rising
up. And it's just... It's ridiculous. Like, just
the way... The way that neighbouring countries
seem to treat each other is just absolutely.
Sorry, I know that's really basic, but it was
just something that really surprised me because
this wasn't like way back in ancient times. This
is literally in the in the 20th century. And
I just I honestly didn't think. I know genocides
happen, but I didn't realise starvation, literal
starvation. There was a name for it, wasn't there?
I can't remember. Now I feel like I'm... Let's
go over... There is a... What about more recent?
Look at that. What is the reason the Ukrainian
-Russian war actually started when it did? Okay,
so the most recent, the recent conflicts have
happened for a while with the breakdown of the
USSR in the late 80s and early 90s. It's interesting
that the old president of the USSR, in their
letters and in their writings, literally saw
Ukraine as the latchkey. to any kind of Russian
empire. The way that they put it was that without
Ukraine, Russia can't have an empire. With Ukraine,
Russia immediately is an empire. So he kind of
saw Ukraine as pivotal. And it's understandable
considering... out of all of the USSR states,
Ukraine was always the second. You had Russia,
kind of like this absolute, you know, like the
area of Russia is absolutely vast. I should have
looked it up. Yeah, you look at a map and you
go, which bits Russia, which bits Asia? No, no,
no. All the top of Asia. Yeah, that's Russia.
Yeah, yeah. Like Russia might as well be. Yeah,
if Russia was separated from all the other countries
and was its own landmass, it would be considered
a continent, not an island. Yeah. You know what
I mean? Like, it stretches so far across the
world on... You know what, even just looking
at this world map now, yeah, it stretches halfway
across the world. It used to be able to go from
Russia to America, didn't you, but on foot. Yeah.
It used to be an ice bridge. It used to connect
between... That's how they made the oil pipelines
between Russia and America. It's crazy. But it's...
Russia is massive. Ukraine is still a large country
geographically. But it's just... Coming from
the UK, that's not a difficult thing. Yeah. No,
that's true. That's true. That's true. We're
tiny by comparison. But... Like, Ukraine was
always, like, a surprising close second when
it came to productivity, when it came to, like,
when looking at the things of, like, in the early
20th century, like, it was always, this is what's
made in Russia. This is what's made in Ukraine.
it was always surprising just how close the Ukrainians
were to keeping up with the Russians. Yeah. It
was just, yeah. So Ukraine seems to be like an
incredibly vibrant country. And yet since the
USSR broke down, Ukraine has not managed as well,
has it? No. No, that's absolutely true. So Ukraine,
so unlike, here's another, you know what, I'm
glad that, although we've got some listeners,
I'm glad that we don't have a huge listener base.
I'm not going to piss off too many people with
this one, but unlike Brexit, Ukraine did utilaterally
vote for its independence. You know, like, it's
interesting that the bits of Ukraine that are
further away from Russia voted 80 -90 % for independence.
The Crimea, which is currently part of Russia
and had the highest contingent of Russian people
within Ukraine. still voted 54 % for independence.
Yeah, for independence. To be part of Ukraine.
To be part of Ukraine. And yet Russia chose to...
What's the word? Russia chose to... I can't remember
the... I mean... But I'll tell you what, we'll
go for a quick timeline of events. So we won't
go back to ancient, ancient history, but we'll
just say the two nations have a muddy past. The
borders have moved. Russia has ruled over Ukraine
at different times of history. Ukraine has never
ruled over Russia, so it can't really be compared
to France and England, where things have gone
backwards and forwards massively. But like, okay,
so the breakdown of the USSR happens. Ukraine,
yeah, Ukraine goes about its business and doesn't
do so well financially, but it does at least
have a democratically elected government for
a time, from what I've read into Russian politics.
is that after the breakdown of the USSR, they
had a couple of people, but quite quickly, within
by about 1993, an individual, there's like coups
in Russia, and one individual, I can't remember
his exact name, but he basically, I hate to say
it, does a Palpatine. literally, despite being
held back by two different governing bodies,
literally says, I'm going to give myself emergency
powers. Gives himself emergency powers and then
just stops listening. And the democratically
parts of the Russian government can't get enough
majority in order to impeach and get him out.
Well, the year I made him was. Yeah. Yeah, sorry,
that is it. Yeah, no, that's it. That is it.
That's it. That's the bloke. Okay, so you got
that happening in the 90s. A lot more, unfortunately,
negative stuff happened with Croatia and a lot
of other eastern countries. Bad things happen
there. We'll cover that in another episode at
some point if we get round to it. Things keep
going. Now, things start to get hairy as more
nations join NATO. Now, America, American foreign
policy is somewhat contradictory in that They
react very poorly to people building up weapons
close to their borders. Yet they expect other
countries to be fine when they do it. If you
go back, the time period I'm going to focus at
now is the early 2000s. Right, yeah. When Ukraine
starts to show an interest in joining NATO. And
America keeps on running large -scale military
exercises in NATO countries. And specifically,
they start setting up missile systems, surface
-to -surface missiles with hundreds of miles
of range. not hundreds of miles from the russian
border yeah which in and of itself like i don't
blame russia for their initial response of saying
this is not okay um there was a famous paper
a famous um exchange where uh the russian I think
foreign minister literally said, nyet means nyet,
which is literally no means no. With all due
respect, if somebody is waving a gun at you,
you're going to be ducking down out of the way,
holding your hand out, going, oh no, stop, stop.
Even if they say to you, it's not loaded, mate.
It's not loaded. No, that's it. That's it. But
it's also like, it's the capabilities. Why put
missile systems which can... And this is the
annoying thing. The tactical flexibility of these
systems, I understand. I understand why a military
commander would want these missile systems which
can have thermonuclear missiles in them. Yeah.
But you don't put those on your border. You know?
Yeah. You don't... Yeah, like that's... When
Russia did it in Cuba, what did America do? Freaks
the fuck out. Sorry, I think is the technical
term. But it's pot kettle black, isn't it? Yeah.
Yeah, and it's just, it's ridiculous. So I completely
understand. But what I love is that Russia went
to the United Nations. And again, this is so
bad that I'm sorry that I've only heard this
and not written it down properly. But I'm not
going to pretend that I'm a massive fan of Putin.
He's literally taken his country into war. But
in 2007, he brought something to the UN's and
to the European Union's attention. And he tried
to get everybody to sign a missile accord. saying
that, okay, look, none of us, nobody, is going
to put nuclear missile facilities next to each
other's borders. And even if the phrasing in
it was unfair, even if the demands of it were
ridiculous, he still went, peaceably to the world
stage and tried to do things legally slash get
an accord going so that people weren't putting
nuclear weapons or missile systems which can
easily contain nuclear weapons on the border
of his country i think that That was reasonable.
That's where the reasonableness stops by the
end. But the very fact that he did that. I can't
say I can't fault that, you know. And then later,
when people are accusing him of coming up with
a false narrative, elements of of the narrative
spoken are false. But there are there is I completely
understand he why he would possibly feel or why
the Russian people could quite easily feel. by
the North Atlantic Task Force beginning to put
assault weapons on their border and then claiming
it's self -defence. Likewise, though, I also
can understand why NATO is a little bit scared
because another source of mine is a podcast called...
Trigonometry. And they talk a little bit about
Russia's military potential. Russia is making
more shells than the whole of Europe, or sorry,
the whole of NATO and America combined. Which
is terrifying. And they are upping their production
all the time. So again, it's... It's frustrating
that we've got this standoff of two powers which
are upping their military capacity, one through
the placement of weapons of... possible weapons
of mass destruction, and another through the
mass production of weapons on the ground. Yeah.
And it's annoying. Didn't Russia suggest... a
joint missile base in Azerbaijan as a compromise
for the US building these missile bases in Europe.
They basically said, look, we don't like it,
but we understand that you need them for the
rogue states that you're coming up against. But
if you feel that way, rather than do it on your
own, right on our doorstep, why don't we do it
over there and we'll do it... I mean, if that's
the case, that would have been a better... And
then it was rejected by the US. That it wasn't
in a good enough position to be beneficial. I
mean, that does just sound like a cop -out, doesn't
it? But again, I haven't seen the military report,
so I wouldn't know. But if, I don't know, if
the two, if the world's two largest powers are
America and Russia, and assuming, yeah, well,
it would be China now, yeah. But assuming that
that, if that's the case, if you're... frustrating
the world's other superpower and they come up
with a compromise. Although it's not the military
way of doing things, the diplomatic way would
be to shake their hand off. Yeah. Like, I don't
know. It just, all right, but sorry. Anyway,
after 2007, Russia continues to get frustrated.
America apparently backs a number of coups in
Ukraine, and a pro -Russian democratic government
is overthrown by an ultra -nationalistic government.
I don't know the exact parties, I don't know
the exact details, but I know that that happened,
that there was a pro -Russian government. And
it has been replaced through revolution. How
much the US has actually been involved with that,
I don't know. It sounds like political assassination.
It's a technique where the American government
essentially depose a leader and then appoint
one of their own. For lack of a better term.
Yeah, or somebody who is not even... Is pro -America.
Yeah, pro -America or whoever, whatever fits
their needs at the time. Yeah. And sometimes
that backfires horribly on them, but we'll go
into those at another point. So you've then got
this very anti -Russian government on Russia's
border. Unsurprisingly, the Russians get more
frustrated by this. And eventually they do literally
annex Crimea in 2014. And that causes a huge
amount of... Well, it's still an invasion of
sorts. There's a large amount of Russian people
in Crimea. It's not entirely bloodless, but it's
at least quick, is my understanding. Yeah, there's
not a lot that could have been done about it.
Yeah. Kind of like, well, this is ours now. Yeah.
That's it. What is weird is that... How do you
pronounce it? Is it Zelensky? Zelensky, yep.
Zelensky. He came to power with a huge... Like,
he was voted in, again, massively. But he came
under one of his campaign promises, was peace.
And yet somehow during his reign... not his reign
somehow through that Russia for some reason decided
that he wasn't going to stick to his guns and
there just seems to be a breakdown like Zelensky
has now said on multiple occasions that he doesn't
trust President Putin to honour any agreement
that they make which kind of makes peace accords
like if neither side trusts each other at all
there's no kind of way for a peace accord to
be to be found i mean i understand when dealing
with putin i understand the anxiety given how
paranoid putin if Can't trust you. Can't trust
him. There's never going to be that. That piece.
Yeah, that's it. Because it's built on respect
and Putin is constantly older. Aye. What I do
find Interesting. What I find kind of ridiculous
is that the two sides are at this stalemate.
At the beginning of the war, sorry, after Crimea,
it's then only, it's eight years, and then Russia
invades Ukraine. And I don't know about you,
but I remember hearing so many ridiculous stories.
About, like, are all the Russian tanks breaking
down or them running out of petrol? Yeah. Or...
You know, I basically hear about the initial
invasion being pretty much a disaster. A flop.
Complete flop. And yet, after an embarrassment
like that, the war's still going on. and then
months later russians have taken more ground
and then they've taken more ground and then there's
this that and the other and then we're um we're
sending all of our supplies to ukraine and we're
offering um ukrainians like um special because
they're because they're fluent fleeing well to
be fair many refugees are fleeing war zones but
because of the media attention on this one and
because i don't know because of the the strength
of the narrative that it's just russian expansionism
um and it is that to a point but it's also the
policies and stuff that with that have been put
in place on them again i don't think it's a clear
-cut thing one way or the other but i i don't
think the actually you know what that's another
question do you feel the no that's going off
top right okay i'll bring back a question in
a second Okay, so what really surprises me is
that the war is still ongoing. And that... I'm
going to get on my soapbox a little bit. Yeah,
by all means. I'm going to get on my soapbox
a little bit because people quite often look
at... They go... Why... A war... Look at a fight
in the playground, right? basically you punch
him he punches you it hurts you go ow and that's
the end right um like a war is a like a big fight
in a playground right you'd expect so you drop
a few bombs they drop a few bombs you shoot a
few people and then somebody goes ow that really
hurts please stop and that's the end of it Apart
from the fact that the longer a war goes on for,
the more money it makes. The more time that war
goes on for, the more arms are needed, the more
vehicles are needed, the more bombs are needed,
the more bullets are needed, etc. And it is a
massive money -making enterprise. So, when you
know that There are literally governments around
the world that are funded by organisations that
make money from war. They're going to want wars
to continue as long a period as possible in order
to maximise that profit margin, maximise the
funding that they get. That's the really sickening
thing about war that most people... just overlook
with considering why is a war going on for so
long because it makes a lot of people a lot of
money that's why but it makes a lot of i'd say
more people die than what than people who are
made rich in war like honestly enough and i realize
a lot of money has been sent to ukraine yeah
absolutely honestly though like that's irrelevant
to the people who make the money. There are 8
billion people in this. And the people that make
the money from war are a very, very, very small
handful of poor money. And all of those lives
are worth. And that's not me saying I don't care.
I'm saying that's their attitude. I do not want
to be misquoted. OK, like, fine. What I what
I don't understand is fine. So you talk about
like the industrial. What's it called? Military
industrial industrial complex. Yeah, the industrial
military complex. Yeah, making money from this
conflict. But it's the industrial military complex
of other countries. Yeah. Like... It's not countries.
It's not countries. It's companies. Corporate
of companies. Yeah, yeah. But how... Okay, but...
Russia... Okay, so... Russia's a powerful nature,
but I don't think... Is it in... where where
are they top you know i'm just going to type
in top 10 gdpr no that's not okay but you know
it's gross annual it's not gdpr cars capital
according to the russia's 47th yeah and total
wealth total wealth russia's 18th okay so Okay,
so considering that, and considering that...
Russia isn't Nazi Germany, but I'm going on the...
It's the last big... No. Okay, it's the last
massive... conflict between two large -scale
factions within um within western europe i now
realize it's eastern europe and i realize a lot
of other things have gone on but from my own
ignorant mind comparing it to world war ii that
that war in that war hitler built up the uh the
german The German war machine and made the country
incredibly industrial and warlike. And yet still,
that war machine would have collapsed without
helps of certain banks back in 1943. Yeah. Four
years after it started. What I'm wondering is...
What I'm wondering is, since Russia is... Sorry,
what was it GDPR -wise? Was it 47th? 47th. And
yet, despite its huge landmass, huge landmass,
is 18th in the total wealth, how are these two
countries... Because companies make money, yeah?
Yeah. But the governments themselves don't. They
spend money. They spend money. And I realise
that we have dropped... We've sent money to Ukraine.
We've all sent money to Ukraine in England. But
how are both sides... still going at this point
you know considering that it's not a worldwide
conflict you know like you can in order for countries
to become fast as neutral they have to provide
um equal um support to both sides of the war
okay all right well it it frustrates uh it frustrates
me that it's still it's still going on and that
with you know like what what prompted me to choose
this as a topic and looking at the background
of this topic was first off my own ignorance
second off that i hadn't heard much about it
in the news and third off I chose this topic
during the most recent peace talks a couple of
weeks ago at this point, when I was hoping that
the war was coming to an end and we could do
a nice overview of it. Was that during a time
when Trump actively verbally placed himself?
Are you going to fall over if I walk away? No,
it was short, but it was a couple of weeks after
that. So it was a similar time. I don't think
Trump necessarily was involved. It was Zelensky
and Putin possibly going to the table to talk
about peace. And there was supposed to be a ceasefire
over three days. Both sides have reported that
the other has broken that ceasefire dozens upon
dozens of times. So it looks like the whole thing
was a bit of a farce, but when I heard peace
talks were happening, literally, my heart kind
of raised. So, although I don't... I don't necessarily
see the Ukraine war as solely Russian expansion.
What's your views on it? Like, do you see it...
How much do you think, from the research that
you've done into Russians' narrative of them
being backed into a corner and wanting to demilitarize
Ukraine... How much do you feel the West is responsible?
How much do you feel Russia is responsible? And
do you think there's an end in sight? Well, I
didn't know until America played cards that way.
I don't know, but I think that there is a power
in America building bases for other people. right
on your um threatened or threat pause acromo
option um would mean box would start turning
action um though i don't agree with the asian
of you i can understand why it happened why it
has come about both from a historical element
um the fact that it like people in you to get
hung up on oracle ties um and um name ownership
things that because they've they've like the
fact that They were visitors to that nation.
I think the provocation was there. My reaction
came on long enough. Oh, absolutely. I don't
think... Russian listeners, Russian army, there's
never, I mean, I'm a personal advocate for armies
to be abolished because you only need an army
because somebody else, yeah, you only need an
army because somebody else has an army and this
is the 21st century for Christ's sake, please.
Just sit down and talk through problems. And
even if you don't agree, compromise. Find a means
to get past it. It shouldn't be worthy of...
Yeah. That's a fair point. That's a fair point.
And to be fair, although I... I can understand
people who have respect for military backgrounds,
military traditions, military pride, but that
should be secondary to human life. Like, absolutely.
Like, it just... You can also argue about the
needs for certain... For the ability to... For
the ability to fight. But at the same time, there's
got to be peaceable ways of dealing with situations.
And I don't think anyone can take endlessly,
you know, without realising that they're... that
they're doing something wrong. Like, I don't
believe that all people are necessarily inherently
good, but I also don't think that anybody is
pure evil. You know? And do what, right? If Russia
can go home, then I can... All got that, mate.
Not even that, mate. They're just someone who
hangs around with you. They're there, and they're
annoying as hell, and stupid things, question
one. Yeah. If somebody were to start on that
person, still defend them, it might be a dick.
They're yours, and... but you look after one
of you and get to the point where you accept
the fact that people are different and you're
not always going to want to abandon them but
you are going to respect the fact that they are
their own entity get past i don't know i don't
know maybe um definitely think conflict is better
settled with words that's easy to get easy thing
to get behind do you think that the um How long
do you think that this particular conflict will
continue going on for? Do you think we've got,
you know, do you think it's months, years? I
think there are a few more surprises. Yeah. Okay.
All right. Well, thank you for listening, everybody.
I've gone through a fair amount of... of material
i realize this one's been a little bit uh more
haphazard but it's uh hopefully you've gotten
a a basic uh build up or the basic timeline um
towards uh the invasion uh the russian uh invasion
of ukraine in uh 2022 and will uh if when the
if the war ends when we're still doing this podcast.
I'm very much hoping it does. We'll definitely
cover this again. Yeah, Nick, thank you very
much for your time and for your chance. And we'll
end it here for there. Everybody that has listened,
take care. Bye -bye.