1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 Hi, Nick here from Pods with Nick and James. Just a quick one before we get into this podcast. 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:12,000 I want to say a massive thank you for the support that we've received since starting these podcasts. 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,000 We thoroughly enjoy it and we look forward to creating more. 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:23,000 If you want to have your say on any topics that we've discussed or suggest future topics, 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:30,000 you can do so at www.reddit.com slash r slash nickandjamespods 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:35,000 and if you want to support us you can do so from as little as £1 a month 7 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:40,000 and you can do that at www.patreon.com slash Pods with Nick and James. 8 00:00:40,000 --> 00:01:06,000 Anyway, back to the podcast. 9 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Hello and welcome back to Pods with Nick and James. My name's Nick and this is James. 10 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,000 Hi there. 11 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:19,000 Today we're going to be discussing intelligence agencies. 12 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:27,000 So what are your thoughts on intelligence agencies just from a blank canvas? 13 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:32,000 From what you've heard through history or through your own lifetime? 14 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Do you agree with the need for them or do you not really have an opinion? 15 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,000 Well, before the agency came the individual and I mean there's always been spies 16 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:54,000 even as far back as ancient history and there's always been traitors I guess to the point where... 17 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,000 You know what, the fact that I'm even using words like that is incredibly judgemental 18 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,000 but I respect... we all think or... 19 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:11,000 A popularised character of spies is that they're cool and in control 20 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:19,000 but what they're officially are are professional liars so it's kind of the moral quandary 21 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:25,000 versus the kind of aesthetic and... 22 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:31,000 I don't even know what the right word is here. 23 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,000 The glamification? The glorification? 24 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:38,000 Yes, that's it. That's exactly the right word. I apologise listeners. 25 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,000 Even if I did make it up! 26 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:45,000 No, no, no, no. That's what I was going for. That's exactly what I was going for. 27 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:51,000 So yeah, my understanding is there's always been spies as the years have gone on 28 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:58,000 like individual nobles, individual monarchs have had spies in other people's courts 29 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:09,000 the idea of them being agencies and them all being organised together is terrifying 30 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:19,000 the fact that things like CIA agents have been used to destabilise countries 31 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:24,000 or at least I remember stories, hopefully we'll go into some of those stories, I don't know 32 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:34,000 it's just... it's concerning. It's also really worrying that if we don't do this 33 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:40,000 what is the result other than the eventual result of peace, trust and love? 34 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:48,000 What shit does the world need to go through if we start disarming spies? 35 00:03:48,000 --> 00:04:00,000 I think the need comes out of the existence. So it's the same with my belief behind armies 36 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:06,000 you need an army to protect yourself from the next army. It's the same with spies 37 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:11,000 you need an intelligence agency to protect you from the next intelligence agency 38 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:19,000 I mean the intelligence agencies themselves would defend themselves and say the easiest form of defence 39 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:26,000 is to know when things are going to happen and for that you need intelligence agencies and spies 40 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:42,000 but if every nation wasn't cloak and dagger and full of deceit and deception 41 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:48,000 then the need for that wouldn't be there 42 00:04:48,000 --> 00:05:04,000 No. No that's it. But then again our spies like... in my mind spies are better than massive armies 43 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:21,000 at least in that they are... well okay in that spies steal secrets and can in some cases ruin people's lives 44 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:33,000 and can kill individuals but I guess one of the few redeeming features about it is it's still small scale 45 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:45,000 you know? Like it's not... sending in a spy to infiltrate a certain government isn't the same as 46 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:55,000 gassing a civilian population centre or setting nuclear weapons off again... no I'm not going to... 47 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:03,000 no no no you know what fuck it I'll say it... or setting off nuclear weapons above two Japanese cities 48 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:12,000 it's not great, it's not what I want definitely, it's definitely not how I believe politics should be conducted 49 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:26,000 yet it is what it is and I think it's rather better to steal information than to directly kill 50 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:34,000 Yeah I think there needs to be a better directive with some of it though because stealing the information 51 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:42,000 for the sake of stealing information is one thing and the target should always be to save lives 52 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:50,000 in my opinion. If you're going to use power use it properly, use it for the right reasons 53 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:56,000 not for personal gain, not to get ahead of the competition but to save lives 54 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:06,000 Anyway do you know the... I'm going to ask a really obvious question here... do you know the English intelligence agency? 55 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:13,000 Right so I know we've got the military police and I know that you've got military intelligence 56 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:23,000 that's what the MI stands for and I know it goes up in certain numbers, I know MI5... isn't MI5 the 57 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:36,000 highest either agreed upon or the highest... for lack of a way of saying it... acknowledged and publicised 58 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:46,000 agency within the UK government or does the UK government admit the existence of MI6? 59 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:54,000 It does admit the existence of MI6 but its operations aren't publicly disclosed 60 00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:04,000 so I think maybe that's where it goes but you're right MI6 is the name of our intelligence agency 61 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:14,000 well it's the top intelligence agency in the UK. Do you know what they started as? 62 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:20,000 I'm really tempted to come out with sarcastic answers here and I apologise this kind of shows how tired I am 63 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,000 There was an agency that they were before they were the MI6 64 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:32,000 Yeah... were they saboteurs? Like that would be the one that makes sense 65 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,000 unfortunately the first one that came to mind in my head were they bakers? 66 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:46,000 The direct precedent to MI6 was the secret service, Her Majesty's Secret Service 67 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:58,000 or at least His Majesty's Secret Service and they were formed in or just coming up to the First World War 68 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:08,000 as a means to gain intelligence on the growing German threat. It became MI6 in 1912 69 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:16,000 and over the next 40 years have steadily evolved into the intelligence agency that you don't see today 70 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,000 There's a pun there for you 71 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,000 Yeah that was well done 72 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:34,000 Do you know, you said about it being glorified and glamorous, do you know where it got that reputation from? 73 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:46,000 Well I imagine like books, I imagine the books, I hate to say it, the books of, was it Arthur Doyle? 74 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:56,000 I hate to say it, was it originally glamorized in the James Bond or was it glamorized way before then? 75 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:04,000 Ian Fleming specifically references MI6 in all of the James Bond films 76 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:10,000 even to the point where he was so obsessed with the spy life of MI6 77 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:22,000 that there's so many different references throughout the book such as M herself is in direct reference to C who is the head of the MI6 78 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:30,000 C was originally Captain Sir Mansfield Smith Cumming and he would always sign his documents in green ink with the letter C 79 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:42,000 and now all future heads since him, all the future heads of MI6 have signed all of their documentation with a green C 80 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:52,000 and that's one of the biggest references that Ian Fleming makes in the James Bond films is obviously M is C 81 00:10:52,000 --> 00:11:05,000 which I thought was really cool but you're right, the whole spy life, when you look into it more it's very seedy and backstabbing 82 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:16,000 but Ian Fleming made it a whole new ball game, world saving and martinis and bars and tuxedo events and stuff like that 83 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:23,000 but it really isn't all like that 84 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:38,000 one of MI6's greatest successes, I'll give you a hint, it was in the second world war, one of their greatest successes came in the second world war 85 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:44,000 and it is massively publicized, a lot of people do know about it, I wonder if you do? 86 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:55,000 OK, so is it based off of, well no it's not based off of it, was there a film about it? 87 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,000 Absolutely there was 88 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:04,000 With, oh my god, with Benedict Cumberbatch 89 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,000 With the actor with the best name in the world, yes absolutely 90 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:17,000 I love that in Doctor Strange there's two Benedicts, both Benedict Wong and Benedict Cumberbatch play two of the main characters 91 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:23,000 Alright well yeah, so I guess that would be the cracking of the enigma code 92 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:32,000 Yeah the imitation game was the film starring Benedict Cumberbatch, can you tell me who he played? 93 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:45,000 No, unfortunately I don't know this individual but I do know that, well he had a very hard life and he, yeah there was still a lot of homophobia 94 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:53,000 Well no there was not, there was still, there was a lot of homophobia back then and he ended up suffering as a result of it 95 00:12:53,000 --> 00:13:07,000 Absolutely, just by the fact that he created one of the first computers, like automatic calculator, ever seen by man in our generations anyway 96 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:17,000 His name's Alan Turing and he had a team of cryptologists put together by MI6 and they cracked the enigma code 97 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:28,000 One of the most disappointing things as is rightly outlined in the imitation game is the fact that even when they solved the enigma code or when they cracked the enigma code 98 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:38,000 They had to be very careful about how they used that information, their knee-jerk response was to stop the first attack they intercepted 99 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:43,000 And that would have immediately given away to the Germans that their code was cracked 100 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:49,000 If you're going to use the intelligence you have to use the intelligence intelligently 101 00:13:49,000 --> 00:14:01,000 Which was unfortunate because then they had to listen to the fact that numerous people were going to die and they knew about it and were choosing to do nothing about it 102 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:22,000 Yeah, that's got to be, yeah, and then also like every single letter of I'm really sorry that your child, your husband, your whatever died in this attack 103 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:27,000 The fault lies with the other side, honestly we could have done nothing about it 104 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,000 That makes that complete lie 105 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:45,000 Yeah, yeah it does and I suppose the guilt is something that is, I can imagine it definitely stayed with the individuals, the cryptologists that were on that team 106 00:14:45,000 --> 00:15:02,000 Yeah, so the MI6 did have occasions of great success, there was another one, this one was a bit more spy kind of double agent 107 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:10,000 But they did stop world annihilation, so well worth an honourable mention 108 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:29,000 They managed to place spies in the KGB which was no mean feat and in 1983 NATO was doing a war game exercise which imitated the escalation to DEFCON 1 109 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:49,000 They had everything, they had the Navy, they had the President on the aircraft carrier and the idea was that it was going to be a reaction to the impending threat of a nuclear attack from Russia 110 00:15:49,000 --> 00:16:02,000 And as I said the plan was that they were going to have high ranking officials from both, from all the NATO countries and including the President of America present in this war game 111 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:23,000 And if it wasn't for Oleg Gordievsky who was a double agent for the KGB it would have resulted in the Russians nuking the UN or NATO and all the countries associated with 112 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Because they saw the war game not as a war game but as a threat and they thought it was a double bluff, they thought oh yeah they're saying it's a war game but it's really an attack 113 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:54,000 So they stepped up theirs but the problem was even though the Russian intelligence was telling us, oh no they mean business, they're going to nuke you, the MI6 and the CIA were like 114 00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:07,000 No, no, no they'd never do that, they wouldn't do that, they wouldn't risk total world annihilation and it was right at the last minute that as I said Oleg Gordievsky managed to get the right message through 115 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:21,000 And the NATO officials decided to step down the level of war game exercise they were doing, pull all the high ranking officials and the President from any involvement with it 116 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:32,000 And that was enough to step down the Russian assault, the pending assault, which is terrifying really 117 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:39,000 Well I had no idea things had gotten that close but that is 118 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:53,000 It was during the height of the Cold War wasn't it, so I suppose in many ways there were many occasions when the CIA and the MI6 felt massively under threat from the Russians during the Cold War 119 00:17:53,000 --> 00:18:04,000 Especially with the threat of nuclear warfare around every corner, I'm really surprised that no nukes were dropped at any point during the Cold War 120 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:11,000 And I think that's one of the most terrifying things about the current situation over in Ukraine 121 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:19,000 I know it's been going on for a number of years now but things seem to be stepping up at the moment don't they 122 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:37,000 There's recent mentions of potential conscription by the UK populace if NATO decide to go against Russia or start armed forces against Russia 123 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,000 Which is terrifying 124 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:52,000 So another occasion where the intelligence agencies have done their bit I suppose and have been necessary 125 00:18:52,000 --> 00:19:09,000 But would you say they were necessary? Once again if, absolutely in that occasion, if the intelligence agencies weren't involved bad things would have happened 126 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:22,000 However, if armed forces weren't involved in the first place and the threat of weaponry and what not else wasn't involved in the first place 127 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Is there really any need for them? Would it have got that bad? I don't think so 128 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:41,000 Because it would have just been handbags at dawn and an argument with the Russians and it would have been settled in a room over a glass of brandy instead 129 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:59,000 You know what we're going to need to do an episode on the Ukraine war at some point but that's going to take a lot of research 130 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:17,000 Just to make sure we've got our facts there. Okay well I'm really glad to hear that intelligence agencies have stopped the break out of war and that is, I completely agree with you in that's the correct use of information gathering 131 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:32,000 The correct use of, well basically lying simply to make sure you've got your hands on the truth rather than telling the truth and then being fed misinformation 132 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:48,000 Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I will admit that is something. Yeah. That's brilliant. Okay so that's two times that MI6 has done something right 133 00:20:48,000 --> 00:21:00,000 Can you name any times where either the CIA or the KGB have saved lives in the same manner? 134 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:13,000 So finding information on the KGB is more difficult and you would have thought, especially with their successes, they'd be a bit more outspoken 135 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:22,000 But they're not. It's only when they cock up and there's investigations with other agencies around the world that there seems to be any information on them 136 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:34,000 Which I think is entirely intentional on their part. Obviously you can't stop information from getting out but you want as little of it to go out as possible 137 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:52,000 Meaning that it's likely to be only when, I mean I suppose in their opinions the two KGB stories that I've got were successes but from the rest of the world 138 00:21:52,000 --> 00:22:03,000 They certainly weren't. For example, I don't know if you remember this, it was in 1998. Were you alive then? 139 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:19,000 Yes. You were alive then. I hate to admit it. I was 10 years old. I was turning 11. I think they had just released Return of the Jedi 140 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:25,000 Or the CGI adaptation of the Star Wars film Return of the Jedi in 1998. 141 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:33,000 I didn't know it but you are actually a year older than me. Anyway, Alexander Litvinenko, do you remember him? 142 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:56,000 Oh, is that the guy who was fed the... basically they got... some spies got into a cafe and were able to get him served some... I know it was radioactive substance, I don't know... 143 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:09,000 It was polonium 210. They laced his teacup with polonium 210. They managed to get him served tea. 144 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:17,000 Which gave him lethal polonium 210 induced acute radiation syndrome. The first ever count of. 145 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:27,000 This was in reaction to himself and a number of other Russian intelligence officers that had been ordered to kill Boris Borosevsky. 146 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:36,000 Boris... oh Russian names, you know. Who was a Russian businessman. They decided they weren't going to do it. 147 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:50,000 And they spoke out about it. He fled to the UK where he then criticized Putin and the Russian government. 148 00:23:50,000 --> 00:24:01,000 And he worked for us and for the Spanish intelligence. Giving information on the KGB and the Russian mafia. 149 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:15,000 And then, as I said, on the 1st of November Litvinenko was poisoned in the cafe and by the 23rd of November he was dead. 150 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:31,000 And there's been no admission but there have been convictions. So Russia was charged with its involvement by the European Court of Human Rights in 2021. 151 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:40,000 It took until 2021. And there was actually two people that were prosecuted. 152 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:49,000 Hmm. OK, so that attack in our country... 153 00:24:49,000 --> 00:25:05,000 As far as the KGB was concerned, it was a success. It was only the second known assassination attempt in the UK by the KGB. 154 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:18,000 Do you know the first one? The first one was a Bulgarian dissident writer in 1970, Georgi Markov. 155 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:28,000 He came to the UK, came to London where he was... and this is the most James Bond-esque assassination that you'll ever hear of. 156 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:46,000 He was stabbed with an umbrella tip on Waterloo Bridge. Inside the umbrella tip was a substance that caused his internal organs to start failing. 157 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:51,000 He then stumbled into a hospital and said that I've been poisoned, I've been poisoned. 158 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:58,000 All of the health officials at the hospital were like this, no, absolutely not. Until he died. 159 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:10,000 And then the head of the chief of medical decided that he would investigate and found a pinprick on the back of his leg corroborating his assumptions. 160 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:24,000 And Bulgaria was... despite the fact that they assumed that the attack was Bulgarian intelligence, 161 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:33,000 it was closely allied with the Soviet Union during the Cold War and just before the Cold War. 162 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:40,000 And many assume heavy KGB involvement with that. 163 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:49,000 And that was the first known occurrence of assassination in someone else's country. 164 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:55,000 And it happened on English soil, UK soil. 165 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:10,000 KGB, what can I say, very good at making bad things go away, making bad information go away. 166 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:30,000 I mean the KGB were heavily involved in the cover-ups both just after the Chernobyl explosion and in the many years following the Chernobyl explosion. 167 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:48,000 In fact a lot of the information that was finally found out about the Chernobyl disaster was found out by the passing of information from officials within Russia, 168 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:58,000 or within the Soviet Union and intelligence agencies around the world outside of. 169 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,000 Absolutely unbelievable the amount that they tried to cover up. 170 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:20,000 Did you know that the Chernobyl power plant, the amount of radiation that was poured into the surrounding area was 400 times that of Hiroshima? 171 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:29,000 That's terrifying because I know the cancer rates in Hiroshima are still higher than the national average in Japan. 172 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:53,000 I mean there was a chance. 400 times. And it's not even as bad as it could have been because as the reactor core was melting down, it began moving towards a water reservoir underneath the reactor 4. 173 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:59,000 Because essentially it was a meltdown of reactor 4 that caused the nuclear waste. 174 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:08,000 The other three reactors, although damaged, were fine and will continue to be used until I think 10-15 years after the fact. 175 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:26,000 However, there was a molten core that was moving towards the water reservoir. Now if it had of hit the water reservoir it would have caused a steam explosion that would have damaged the other four reactors. 176 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:41,000 And that would have been a chain reaction. I mean it would have caused a chain reaction that humanity would not have survived. It would have been a miracle if humanity had come back from that. 177 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:56,000 Like the fallout would have reached, I think they say it, they think it would have covered two thirds of the planet. And remember that radiation has a half life of something like 500 years. 178 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,000 That's terrifying. 179 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,000 Yeah. 180 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:19,000 And the KGB have worked very very hard to cover up the shenanigans that took place. They knew that the reactors were faulty for years beforehand. 181 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:34,000 And it just built up and built up. It was just cost cutting that caused the reactor meltdown. 182 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:49,000 That's terrifying to think. I had heard that officials knew that they were faulty and that it was a kind of like a ticking time bomb. 183 00:30:49,000 --> 00:31:16,000 Like I've seen, well I know that even in the last episode you discussed kind of negligent or willful negligence that you would experienced in the care industry so it doesn't surprise me that kind of the thing that is always advertised as the big bad in the form of the Russian government would do something like that. 184 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:21,000 So that's possibly my own prejudice there which I'll need to look into. 185 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,000 Sorry. Sorry. 186 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:37,000 Okay, so that. So they've, they've done KGB have covered stuff up, but they've also covered up if they do have times when they've had humanitarian successes, then they've also covered that up. 187 00:31:37,000 --> 00:32:06,000 It seems so, yeah, because I can't find any information on it. It strikes me that they, they work less towards, especially when it involves other countries, they work less towards being the good guy and more towards being the bad guy, shall we say. 188 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,000 Yeah. 189 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:20,000 I think you can't talk intelligence agencies without having a discussion about the CIA really can you. 190 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:36,000 Well this is the big one this is the one that we were leading towards. What I also find interesting is that you've got the CIA, and then you've got the FBI. Now, I've got an assumption, but I was just wondering if you could correct this if this is wrong. 191 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:58,000 Is the FBI mostly for internal affairs and the CIA, looking at external affairs, or do their jurisdictions overlap, and if their jurisdictions overlap, which one has presidents, or which one takes presidents, or is it a case by case thing where they literally have to battle it out. 192 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:07,000 So as I understand it, as I understand it, the FBI are kind of like the president's policemen. 193 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:28,000 If you think about it like that, they, they have superseding powers over state police. Yes, they're involved in some big things around the world, but they mainly keep it USA based. And it's normally matters of Homeland Security that they kind of investigate. 194 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:46,000 They can be involved in the investigations within the state, within the Senate, within the part within Parliament in America, and within, and they can investigate agencies within the, within the different areas of government. 195 00:33:46,000 --> 00:34:01,000 However, the Intelli, the Central Intelligence Agency is exactly that. It's only agency, and it is centered around the gathering of intelligence, good or bad. 196 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,000 They are the American spies. 197 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:26,000 Okay. What are some of the, what do they, well what is known or advertised as the CIA's greatest successes. And I'll tell you what, like we, I heard you gave a history of the, so it was like Her Majesty's Secret Service was MI6. 198 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:48,000 What was the KGB's roots. Sorry to move it back because I want to hear the roots of the CIA but I've just realized, Evie you've told me and I've forgotten because I'm incredibly tired, or did we, did we cover, or did you cover the, what were the roots of the KGB, like was there, was there a clear defined history, or is that also? 199 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000 Not that we know of, we know they don't exist now. 200 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:13,000 They started, from what I understand they started around the fall of Beria in June 1953. 201 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:35,000 However, I don't, I don't know, there's so little information that we have surrounding, like when they actually started. I know, well we, we assume that they don't exist now. I think they went with the fall of the Soviet Union. 202 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:44,000 Because they were, I think the Soviet Union's intelligence agency. 203 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:51,000 Okay, so, 204 00:35:51,000 --> 00:36:05,000 All right, that's interesting, that's interesting. Okay, well, since we've got that covered. What was the foundation of the CIA, like when did it originally come about? 205 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:12,000 It started around 1947 just after the Second World War. 206 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,000 Surprisingly late. 207 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:28,000 And it started with creating a special plane that would go on to do many historical feats called the U-2 spy plane. 208 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:44,000 So it worked very closely in the development of the U-2 spy plane. The U-2 spy plane was most famously used in the spotting of the Soviet bunkers within Cuba. 209 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:54,000 That begun the Cuban missile crisis in 1962. 210 00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:12,000 However, in more modern days, they did, they were the agency that set up the attack in Pakistan, which killed a sum of Bin Laden. 211 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:30,000 They, in 1983, they also begun, well I think more than anything, there was a couple of points that I want to go into. 212 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:52,000 Which is more story time with Nick. However, they have, throughout the years, they've developed a couple of aircrafts, spy aircraft, that have been beyond the point of, like nothing that we've seen before as far as intelligence goes. 213 00:37:52,000 --> 00:38:04,000 The U-2 spy plane was incredible for its time. I mean, just after the Second World War, the U-2 spy plane was a hyperjet, which would not be picked up by radar. 214 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:22,000 And it was an incredible craft that was used for the next 30 to 40 years until the, what do they call it, it looked like a blackbird. The A-12, that was it. 215 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:40,000 Was replaced by the A-12 in 1990, I think 1990, was when the A-12 took over. So it was used for a long time. 216 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:50,000 And the A-12 is an incredible feat of engineering itself. 217 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,000 Okay, no that's fair point. What can the A-12 do? 218 00:38:54,000 --> 00:39:10,000 It's a lot faster than the U-2 and it is able to fly a lot higher and for a lot longer. The technology involved in the craft itself is probably where it excels though. 219 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:23,000 The sensors and the cameras and the ability to transmit data back was massively magnified in the A-12. And I do believe there are unmanned versions of it as well. 220 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:29,000 Yeah, right. Cool. 221 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,000 Which is terrifying. 222 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:41,000 Yeah. Alright, what are some of the major operations that the CIA has been involved with and what would you consider? Okay, I guess we'll start with the bad and move on to the good. 223 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:47,000 What are some of the least humane ones that they've been involved with? 224 00:39:47,000 --> 00:40:00,000 I mean, okay, so I don't know if you know about this, but there's a project called MKUltra. Have you ever heard of MKUltra? 225 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,000 I have not heard of that particular project, no. 226 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:11,000 Okay, so this is a project that ran between 1953 and 1973. So it ran for about 20 years. 227 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:20,000 And I've got to give you a bit of backstory before I can tell you about MKUltra in its entirety. 228 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:31,000 So during World War II, Nazi scientists experimented on Jewish prisoner of war to try to develop a truth serum. 229 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:43,000 They wanted to take the will of the person away with a drug in the hopes that they would be able to extract intelligence from them. 230 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:59,000 Between 1945 and 1959, 1600 German scientists were taken into the employment of the American government in a project they called Project Paperclip, 231 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:09,000 forming things such as NASA, as well as joining high-ranking agencies, as well as the CIA. 232 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:21,000 Now, MKUltra was a continuation of the works begun in Germany. They began with hypnosis. 233 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:29,000 They tried to remove the will of the human mind by hypnotizing people. 234 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:39,000 They hoped to induce anxieties and regurgitate information in detail that was only picked up by the subconscious. 235 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:45,000 So, like, replay events from their lives, normally with high-ranking officials from other countries, 236 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:58,000 in the hopes that they could piece together almost entire meetings instead of just getting dribs and drabs through paperwork. 237 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:08,000 They moved on to using drugs in order to break the will of the human mind. 238 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:26,000 They were using LSD, and later they would use things such as amphetamines, mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, alcohol, sodium pentothal. 239 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:36,000 They had a technique which is possibly one of the most cruelest techniques that would ever be used on a human being, 240 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:48,000 where they would inject a barbiturate or a sedative into one arm, and just as the subject was falling asleep, 241 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:59,000 they would then inject amphetamines into the other arm and send their brain into a frenzy, a kind of hyper-psycho state, 242 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:05,000 where the two drugs were working against each other. 243 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:20,000 The incredible thing about MKUltra is that they tested on over 150 people, all of which were American nationals. 244 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:31,000 Oh, shit. Okay, well, to be fair, like, still 150 people, even that in and of itself, is bad, 245 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:39,000 but for a government to do tests on, like, were they... was there any kind of thing that made sense here? 246 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,000 Like, was there any... I'm trying to think of the right way of putting this. 247 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,000 Rationale? 248 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,000 Yeah, was there any rationale? Were these, like, people that... were these drug dealers that they were... 249 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,000 Murderers or murderers, rapists, no? 250 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,000 Yeah, something like that. 251 00:43:52,000 --> 00:44:02,000 Normally, they were kidnapped from orphanages, or they were children that wouldn't be missed, or adults that wouldn't be missed, 252 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:17,000 and they would be taken away and tested upon for years, and then they would be released to asylums or into the general public with no sense of... 253 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:28,000 Like, they'd almost be, like, that homeless guy, you know, that everybody kind of ignores, despite having been treated the way that they were. 254 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:42,000 As a matter of fact, the government are paying damages to numerous Americans after being sued following the release of the documentation surrounding MKUltra. 255 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,000 Wow. 256 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:48,000 So there is actually official documentation that backs all this up. This isn't just conspiracy. 257 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:53,000 I mean, there are a number of conspiracies surrounding all of the agencies that I've discussed, 258 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:58,000 but what I've tried to do is stick to what is documented as much as possible, 259 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:06,000 and this... the fact that there's documentation that backs up what I'm saying here is absolutely disgusting. 260 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,000 Mm. 261 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:16,000 But it's not the craziest thing the Americans have ever done, or the CIA has ever done. 262 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,000 I would say... 263 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,000 Okay, what's the cra... 264 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:30,000 The craziest thing, the... one of the craziest things that is documented, once again, like I said, it's important to remember that I try to stick to documented facts. 265 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:45,000 There was a project that ran called Project Gateway, and the Project Gateway was working on something called the Gateway Process, 266 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:51,000 and this process was thought to enable... wait for it... 267 00:45:51,000 --> 00:46:01,000 It was thought to enable individuals to convert their brain energy into a concentrated beam of energy which could transcend space time. 268 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:06,000 The aim was to access knowledge of the... the communal knowledge of the universe, 269 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:21,000 and to talk to interdimensional beings and to travel through time. 270 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,000 I mean, it sounds... it sounds like a terrible B-movie. 271 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:38,000 It does, doesn't it? I... rather than give you a Nick-sized rundown of the Gateway Process, anybody that's really interested, 272 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:47,000 check out the YouTube channel The Y-Files. They've got a whole video on the Gateway Process, and he explains it so much better than I do. 273 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:53,000 Him and Hegelfish explain it so much better than I do, and definitely deserves a shout out for this one. 274 00:46:53,000 --> 00:47:02,000 So go and check him out. But, yeah, it's definitely one of those things that the CIA have done that you kind of sit there and scratch your head and go, 275 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:14,000 but why would they do that? It's an incredible thing. If it turned out that it was true, then... amazing. 276 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,000 Yeah, that really is something. 277 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:25,000 Yeah. I mean, there's the scientists that actually begun the Gateway Process, like the investigation into the Gateway Process, 278 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:38,000 started as a skeptic. Started heavily as a skeptic. And towards the end, begun to doubt his skepticism. 279 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:49,000 However, he hadn't managed, to his own volition, hadn't managed to prove the Gateway Process was possible. 280 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:55,000 Mm-hmm. 281 00:47:55,000 --> 00:48:02,000 Which is another mind-blowing fact. The fact that a complete skeptic went, you know what, fine, I'll investigate it. 282 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,000 Started doing all these experiments and kind of went, uh... 283 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,000 I buy this now. 284 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:13,000 Yeah, maybe this is possible? I don't know. This is a bit crazy, man. 285 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:18,000 Maybe he just started to see things that, um, not see things in kind of like a hallucinogenic way, 286 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:28,000 but start to see things in his results that he can't explain, that maybe left him with more questions than answers. 287 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:37,000 But, yeah, once again, CIA. Incredible. 288 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:49,000 Yeah, but as I said, one of their main successes was that they managed to find, locate and kill Osama Bin Laden following 9-11. 289 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:55,000 So, half-half. 290 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,000 Aye. Wow. 291 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:05,000 Okay, well that's... I've definitely learnt something. 292 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:11,000 So my question is, what are your thoughts? 293 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:17,000 Do you feel the need for intelligence agencies? 294 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:26,000 Well, I'm really worried that if we don't have them, then other people will do it, but could we not just have our agencies be... 295 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:38,000 Rather than meddling in the affairs of other countries, could we not just have agencies which are... 296 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:45,000 Ah, kind of along the lines of anti-terrorist agencies, but just kind of... I don't know, spies? 297 00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:51,000 I mean a lot of what the MI6 does now is anti-terrorist. 298 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:56,000 But is it within our own... I was thinking within our own borders. 299 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:04,000 Yeah, I think its main scope of operations is within the UK. 300 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:21,000 And from what I understand, it doesn't employ the same high invasive techniques that the KGB or the CIA employ. 301 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:31,000 However, it's still invasive wherever it sees necessity. 302 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:40,000 And ultimately, the thing to remember is that spying is illegal. 303 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:48,000 And whether it be spying on your own country or spying internationally, it's illegal. 304 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:54,000 And therefore, the agents that are spies... 305 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,000 Are technically criminals? Is that what... 306 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:06,000 They're criminals, but as a result of being criminals from the get-go, they employ any method necessary. 307 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,000 In for a penny, in for a pound kind of thing. 308 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,000 I know James Bond has the license to kill. 309 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:20,000 That's once again one of those fictional adaptations of Ian Fleming. 310 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:32,000 But the general meaning behind it is kind of like I said, in for a penny, in for a pound. 311 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:39,000 What I'm doing is already illegal. I will employ any method necessary to do my job. 312 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:53,000 And even that in itself is terrifying, especially when you think about that being turned in on your own. 313 00:51:53,000 --> 00:52:01,000 Yes, anti-terrorist operations, but how do you mull out the non-terrorist? 314 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:10,000 You can't get 100% success rate, so you're going to be invading the privacy of innocent people along the way. 315 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:16,000 Yeah, like there will be collateral damage, regardless. 316 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:24,000 Exactly. So you're going to do the wrong thing, no matter how much you try to do the right thing. 317 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:32,000 And I think that's kind of the catch-22 that the government find themselves in. 318 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:41,000 Like for the sake of the greater good, to coin a phrase, is it not the right decision? 319 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:56,000 However, for the sake of the greater good, has been used as a means to give motion to many of the world's greatest offences over the years. 320 00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:03,000 Yeah, for the greater good, God wills it, any of that. 321 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:15,000 So you can't justify the means by the end. I had to take a second to think that through, I always get that mixed up. 322 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:21,000 Yeah, or just the ends don't justify the means. 323 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:29,000 Yeah, that definitely works, better to say it that way, but I always mess it up. 324 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:37,000 But yeah, I mean, I'm with you in the fact that, like, I think you want to feel secure, don't you? 325 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:48,000 And what intelligence agencies have the potential to provide you with is the one step ahead feeling of being secure, 326 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,000 being safe because you know what's going to happen ahead of you. 327 00:53:52,000 --> 00:54:03,000 But you only need to know what's going to happen ahead of you because the nations and the people around you are untrustworthy. 328 00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:13,000 Which in itself is terrifying. 329 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:22,000 But such is the world we live in. 330 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,000 A lot of silence following that. 331 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,000 I don't know, I just don't know what to say. 332 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,000 It's a difficult thing to follow. It's a difficult thing to follow. 333 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:38,000 I think it provokes more thought than it does speech, than it does to open discussion. 334 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:44,000 You find yourself kind of arguing with yourself, like there's so many arguments for and so many arguments against. 335 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,000 It's difficult to pick a side, isn't it? 336 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:58,000 It is, like I can see the need, but you're right, the need exists because of historical, but also because of the continual use of spies. 337 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,000 Or because of the use of... 338 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:03,000 Danger, risk, threat. 339 00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,000 Yeah, yeah, that's it. 340 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:14,000 The existence of threat causes the need for intelligence against those threats. 341 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:22,000 Surely the only real threat that we should be protecting ourselves from is that that is out of our control as human beings. 342 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:30,000 And that is, of course, Mother Nature itself and the happenings around the universe. 343 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,000 We have no say in that in the grand scheme of things. 344 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:38,000 But if a comet started heading towards the Earth, that's the kind of intelligence that I want forewarning against. 345 00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:51,000 If there's a means to predict when earthquakes are happening and save hundreds of thousands of lives, then that's what I want the intelligence to forewarn me of. 346 00:55:51,000 --> 00:56:03,000 I don't want to be having to look over my shoulder against people that are in the same boat that I am. 347 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:08,000 Yeah, well that... yeah. 348 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:13,000 It makes no sense. 349 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:22,000 But then again, mankind throughout history has had no problem kind of creating its own disasters. 350 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,000 Its own issues, yeah. 351 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:35,000 Despite the horrendousness of several... yeah, well, not several. 352 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:45,000 Despite almost unlimited, terrible, horrible things throughout history, we still seem to feel the need to add to it. 353 00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,000 And it's ridiculous. 354 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,000 We can be such conceited people. 355 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:54,000 Oh, it's okay, this time will be different. 356 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:58,000 And oh no, it wasn't caused by me, so it's not my problem. 357 00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,000 Yeah. 358 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:04,000 This is the world we live in. This is what's happening right now. 359 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:13,000 We need to be responsible as human beings, as nations, as a world, and take responsibility and take ownership. 360 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:23,000 And you work together in order to overcome these problems that have been created by ourselves and by our predecessors. 361 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,000 Yeah. 362 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:37,000 And go past the mistakes of older generations. 363 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:41,000 Yeah, which in its... 364 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:46,000 You know what? 365 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:51,000 I'm just... I'm literally lost for words. 366 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:58,000 It's difficult. I always kind of feel or felt in the past I have strong views on things, but you know what? 367 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:03,000 I honestly don't know what to make of this. 368 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:16,000 I'm hoping that a call back to honesty would be fantastic, but I don't think any government will take that seriously or... 369 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,000 No, no, that's the thing, isn't it? 370 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,000 ...will abide it. 371 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:28,000 And the other thing, of course, is that you're made to feel so insignificant in yourself, as an individual, 372 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:39,000 that you kind of step away from wanting to make any change yourself, because powerless, you're one person and you're amongst eight billion others. 373 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:45,000 So what difference is the change that I make going to make in the world? 374 00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,000 Mm. 375 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:54,000 And the reality of it is, in the grand scheme of things, probably not a lot, which is why I always try to tell people, 376 00:58:54,000 --> 00:59:01,000 but knowing is the power. Knowing is the opportunity that you have. 377 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:12,000 And as long as you act on that knowledge when an opportunity presents itself, then you've made your impact. You've done your bit. 378 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,000 Yeah. 379 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,000 Yeah, that's entirely true. 380 00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:24,000 Well, I think I'm going to round off there tonight, James, and listeners. 381 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:32,000 Thank you once again, everybody, for being here with us and listening to another podcast. 382 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,000 We look forward to joining you again next time. 383 00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:45,000 But for now, take care. 384 01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:15,000 Thank you.