1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,640 Hi, Nick here from Pods with Nick and James. 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,200 Just a quick one before we get into this podcast. 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:12,000 I want to say a massive thank you for the support that we've received since starting these podcasts. 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,240 We thoroughly enjoy it and we look forward to creating more. 5 00:00:16,240 --> 00:00:22,960 If you want to have your say on any topics that we've discussed or suggest future topics, 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:30,400 then you can do so at www.reddit.com slash r slash nickandjamespods. 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:35,200 And if you want to support us you can do so for from as little as one pound a month 8 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,560 and you can do that at www.patreon.com slash podswithnickandjames. 9 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:54,080 Anyway, back to the podcast. 10 00:00:54,080 --> 00:01:18,000 Welcome to Pods with Nick and James, a podcast about, well mostly my own and Nick's attempts 11 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:26,000 to overcome ignorance and to have discussions about either hot topics or political or historical issues. 12 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:40,880 Today's subject is a brief and massively summarized version of the historical, 13 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:48,480 well the modern historical context of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. 14 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:57,440 Yeah, you know what, I up until recently was very ignorant about this. 15 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:03,600 I thought that this conflict had come about when after the Holocaust, 16 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,400 I thought England and America had sent a load of troops into Palestine 17 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:14,800 and just carved out an area for the Jews to live in 18 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,480 and the Palestinians had been trying to take it back since then. 19 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:26,880 So I thought it started in 1945 and was just a bit of a shit show. 20 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,520 Turns out it's way more complicated than that and we'll be getting into it. 21 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,720 I will just to mention my sources here. 22 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:41,040 I've read the book, The Palestinian-Israeli Conflict, a very short introduction, 23 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,720 by the Oxford Press, by Martin Bunton. 24 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,600 I have not memorized the whole book by any stretch of the imagination 25 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,600 and unfortunately there will be some key points that I miss out. 26 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,720 So if you are an expert on this and you are listening to this podcast, 27 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:03,440 maybe switch off or just get incredibly high before listening to this 28 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,640 because there will be things that I miss that will probably frustrate you 29 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:08,400 if you are genuinely an expert. 30 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:10,560 Let's start off though. 31 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,520 One thing I have learned is in some of my stunts, I've done too much talking. 32 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,600 So I'm going to start with some questions. 33 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,880 Nick, how much were you taught about this in school? 34 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,120 I'll be completely honest. 35 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:32,080 When it's come to Israel and Palestine, I am probably your stereotypical British citizen. 36 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,360 By which I mean I am naive to hell by it. 37 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,400 I know little bits but not enough. 38 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,240 I mean honestly if I was going to be completely straight with you, 39 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,960 I could even ask you the question, who's the bad guy? 40 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:47,760 You know what I mean? 41 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:48,960 That's how little I know. 42 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,360 There's obviously a good side, bad side. 43 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:54,400 Look at Russia and Ukraine. 44 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,200 It's quite clear that there's a good side, bad side, shall we say. 45 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,800 But it's all perspective. 46 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:07,440 There's definitely an invader and a UN territory which has been invaded. 47 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,320 Okay, so I'm so naive to it. 48 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:11,200 I have no idea. 49 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:12,720 Please do enlighten me. 50 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:17,120 I look forward to learning more about the world. 51 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,680 I'm looking forward to learning from you. 52 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:29,600 Okay, well the annoying thing here is like I hadn't even done research into the ancient 53 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:30,320 history of this. 54 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:37,200 So I'll just use what knowledge I have learned from being like a church member for 10 years. 55 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:45,040 Okay, so in the area of the Middle East, in modern-day Palestine 56 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:54,480 and well in modern-day Palestine, there were lots of different kingdoms which were carved 57 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:06,800 by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then Joseph and following several hundred years later, 58 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,960 Moses moved, sorry, originally it was Abraham, Isaac, 59 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:18,240 and Jacob lived in what is modern-day Palestine. 60 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,080 They then moved to Egypt during a famine in the land. 61 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:30,720 Several hundred years passed and the good favor of the Egyptians towards the Jews was 62 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,280 forgotten and they became complete slaves. 63 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:40,960 During Moses, he busted them out of there for a shorter version of doing it. 64 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:46,880 They wandered around in the desert for an extended period of time even though geographically 65 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:48,080 this would have been impossible. 66 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,560 I'll cover that and another top point. 67 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,960 And then yeah, I'm just assuming it was like almost like game physics, like they got turned 68 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:57,760 around or something. 69 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,520 But anyway, anyway, wait a minute. 70 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:00,080 Right. 71 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:03,200 They moved. 72 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:09,200 They moved back in, they invaded the land slowly but surely like there was the fall 73 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:15,120 of Jericho, there were the 12 spies and the two good spies, Joshua and Caleb. 74 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:23,840 And there's lots of stories in the Bible how the Jewish people migrated from Egypt into 75 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:33,440 the land, into this land which God said he had given to them and that was overflowing 76 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:34,960 with milk and honey. 77 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,960 There is that, I can't remember off the top of my head. 78 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,960 I know which book it's in. 79 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:42,160 It's in Genesis. 80 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,360 I know which chapters it's in. 81 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,360 It's in the later chapters of Genesis. 82 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,720 I can't tell you which chapter and which verse off the top of my head. 83 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:50,240 I haven't done my research in this. 84 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,800 I've looked at it as a modern political conflict. 85 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,360 But it's nice to get some historical context as well. 86 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:00,480 Yeah, exactly. 87 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:09,920 So the Jewish people have it written in the Torah in the first five books of the Old Testament 88 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:11,600 which is also included. 89 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,560 So the Torah is included in the Old Testament. 90 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,240 It's also included in the Bible. 91 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:22,800 It's also included in anything which isn't Islam. 92 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:30,960 You would be the only Abrahamic faith which doesn't necessarily include the Torah as 93 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,960 scripture per se. 94 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,760 However, all three are linked and we covered that before. 95 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,280 Yeah, yeah. 96 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:44,960 Okay, so the Jewish people were promised this land and they moved into this land and they 97 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:52,880 were fruitful and they continued to expand and their population continued to grow. 98 00:07:52,880 --> 00:08:12,080 They then had the judges and the judges were like these prophets who were like our biters 99 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:18,880 or I'm trying to think of it like they didn't rule over everywhere. 100 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:25,120 They didn't necessarily demand tribute. 101 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:32,720 But when one of the judges showed up at your town in order to resolve a conflict, 102 00:08:35,680 --> 00:08:38,640 the whole town would show up and the whole town would listen. 103 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:39,840 They were met with reverence. 104 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:47,280 They were met with reverence and so they didn't build big old palaces for themselves which 105 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,080 is something you see way too often in any religion. 106 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,360 They didn't build big old houses for themselves. 107 00:08:53,360 --> 00:09:00,480 They didn't walk around with armies like their power came solely from God and from 108 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,600 the belief of people had in God. 109 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:09,680 Weirdly enough, because I'm going by the biblical accounts here, sometimes towns 110 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:18,400 wouldn't want to accept them at all and sometimes towns would be absolutely shit scared. 111 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,880 I know I certainly would be if a person who had performed... 112 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:30,720 Okay, again, I'm not going to go into the historicies of the miracles but if you had 113 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:39,520 seen someone pull an incredible feat, supernatural feat, and then they'd come to your town 114 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:47,840 to fix a dispute between your neighbor and somebody else, I'd be shit scared. 115 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,080 That's my own natural thing. 116 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,320 Especially given how superstitious people were back then as well. 117 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,000 Yeah, absolutely. 118 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,400 But anyway, sorry, you got the judges. 119 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,760 It also wasn't a clean sweep. 120 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,400 There were a number of times when the Jewish nation was overtaken by, for example, 121 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,200 the Babylonians with Nebuchadnezzar, the Syrians and the Assyrians. 122 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:32,160 The Ark of the Covenant was lost in this time and David created the first kingdom of Israel 123 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,360 and his son Solomon created the first temple. 124 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,400 Solomon balled it up a little bit towards the end. 125 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:46,640 Weirdly enough, the kingdom moved up and down and existed for an extended period of time. 126 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,920 As in it changed location or it grew or shrunk? 127 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:56,000 It did both. 128 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,160 It waxed and waned massively. 129 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:03,920 As did people's reverence of Yahweh or Jehovah the... 130 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,520 Yeah. 131 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:06,880 ...the God of the Old Testament. 132 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:08,880 Weirdly enough, there was a schism. 133 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,920 And this is the weird thing because I haven't actually looked into this 134 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:15,760 and I'm really sorry listeners. 135 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:25,440 I didn't look into why Israel slash Judea split from or why Samaria split from it. 136 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:26,640 I just know that it did. 137 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,160 So you have the 12 tribes of Israel, 138 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,960 which were the 12 sons of Jacob. 139 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,240 Jacob means grabber. 140 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:45,760 Weirdly enough, because he held on to Esau's heel when they were both born together. 141 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,960 James, as it turns out, the name James is just a derivative of Jacob. 142 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,600 So my name literally means grabber. 143 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,840 I have mixed feelings about that. 144 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:12,320 But Jacob was also renamed Israel and the Jewish people are the descendants of Jacob, 145 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,320 which is why they are called Israelites. 146 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:21,280 It's also why they have named the land Israel and why they've also called it a people group. 147 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:26,400 What really frustrates... Okay, sorry, I was still in the ancient history. 148 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:27,920 I need to speed this up and move on. 149 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:29,920 Right. Okay. 150 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:38,080 So the kingdom of Israel and Samaria was conquered by the Romans 151 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,200 a little time before the time of Jesus. 152 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:49,600 The... and also the original temple was destroyed in about 400 BC, I think. 153 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,600 We're talking about Temple Mount. 154 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:54,960 This is the thing. 155 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:02,240 No, the only... the Wailing Wall is the only bit that's left of Herod's temple, 156 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:08,160 which was the second temple, or the second temple of the Roman Empire. 157 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:14,960 The only bit that's left of Herod's temple, which was the second temple, or the third, 158 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,600 if you count the one in Samaria. 159 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,920 The Samaritans, which Samaria, the kingdom of Samaria, 160 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,720 which is where you get the parable of the good Samaritan, 161 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,440 where Jesus kind of tries to point out the fact that 162 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,280 it will be the people that you don't expect who will do the good thing. 163 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:40,320 Moral goodliness doesn't come from your birthplace, your birthright, 164 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,960 your position in society. 165 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,880 It's what you choose to do here in... 166 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,400 Sorry, back to the main topic. 167 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,080 Right. Oh dear. 168 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:51,200 Deary deary dear. 169 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:51,700 Right. 170 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,920 But you have these two kingdoms, which make up of the 12 tribes. 171 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:00,400 They are conquered by the Romans. 172 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:07,760 After several revolts and things not going well, the Romans walk in in about 70 AD. 173 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:16,400 They destroy the temple and they rename the area Palestine. 174 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:16,900 Right. 175 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:23,200 At that point as a way of trying to crush Jewish identity. 176 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:25,700 Okay. 177 00:14:25,700 --> 00:14:27,520 However, there's more to it than this. 178 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,080 There's more to it than this. 179 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,240 These places still exist and Jewish identity, 180 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:39,920 despite having their most holy of holy places destroyed, 181 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:47,280 the Jewish people spread throughout all lands as they are wanted to do, 182 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,320 or sorry, as they are want to do, as each family is directed. 183 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,880 Now, what I find weird is that the Jewish people spread throughout the land, 184 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:04,960 but a number of them stay in Palestine. 185 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:05,460 Yeah. 186 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:13,200 But they convert to Islam, or not even all of them, 187 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:20,240 most of them convert to Islam during the course of the Islamic Golden Age. 188 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:27,360 In 600 AD. 189 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,600 So you've got a number of the Jews, sorry, 190 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:38,960 a number of the Jewish people convert to Christianity when Christianity first occurs, 191 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:48,480 and a number more convert to Islam during the Islamic Golden Age and during the Ottoman Empire. 192 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:57,200 Now, this is where we start to bridge ancient history with modern history. 193 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,720 And I'm really sorry for people who know more about the Ottoman Empire than me. 194 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,160 My understanding of it is, 195 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:15,600 the Ottoman Empire, I know, took over Constantinople and renamed it Istanbul in 1453. 196 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:22,560 The Ottoman Empire existed before then, but it also existed all the way up until 1917. 197 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:30,560 So, the Ottoman Sultans were still knocking about at the time of the Titanic. 198 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:32,320 That's incredible. 199 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,000 I mean, it's not easy, but it is incredible, especially for modern day. 200 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:37,840 Well, absolutely. 201 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,560 But this is the really annoying thing. 202 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:45,360 So, okay, so what we're going to do at the time of the Ottoman Empire, 203 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:52,880 so we're talking several hundred years ago, and at this point, most of the most of the 204 00:16:52,880 --> 00:17:02,720 populace of Israel have converted to Islam and are now considered by the Ottoman Empire to be Arabs. 205 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:04,160 Right. 206 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,520 Rather than Jewish. 207 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:07,280 Okay. 208 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:07,760 Yeah. 209 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:18,320 So, the area of Palestine at the time of 1917 was just called the Levant. 210 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:19,920 Okay. 211 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:20,480 Yeah. 212 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,080 So, it had the ancient name of Palestine. 213 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:31,200 The whole area was named to the Levant under the Ottoman Empire, and there were a couple 214 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:40,320 of different provinces, but the name Palestine and the name Israel was not used. 215 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:42,320 Okay. 216 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:42,820 Uh-huh. 217 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:44,660 Right. 218 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,320 Here's another question for you, just so I'm not talking. 219 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,000 Do you have any idea how big the area of Palestine and Israel is? 220 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:57,600 I mean, I know how... 221 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,920 I mean, I know how... I'm going to say small. 222 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:11,280 I know how small Israel is in context, and if I'm right in thinking... 223 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,200 I'm probably going to get crucified for saying this, but Palestine sits inside... 224 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:21,680 Like, modern-day Palestine sits inside Israel, so I can imagine it's even smaller. 225 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:35,120 Well, the area... just to... the area is 26,790 square kilometers, 226 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,320 which is slightly bigger than Wales. 227 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:40,000 Okay. 228 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:40,500 Okay. 229 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,560 Is the way to... is the way to do this. 230 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:45,600 Okay. 231 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:47,760 There's probably just about the same amount of sheep. 232 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:50,000 Or goats. 233 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,840 Um, I mean, to be fair, I'd like to think there was slightly more. 234 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:55,220 In Israel? 235 00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:58,160 Just because... yeah, because the weird thing is, 236 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,200 although a lot of the fighting happens in the cities, 237 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,320 the majority of the land is barren hill country. 238 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:08,640 Yeah. 239 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,320 So I like to think that there's at least animals there, because otherwise it's just... 240 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,480 Well, it's just somewhat desolate farmland. 241 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,280 So it was called the Levant until 1917. 242 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,400 It was also known as the Greater Syria Empire. 243 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:31,600 In present day, you've got Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, and Turkey 244 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,640 all make up that the area of the Levant. 245 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:37,280 And Egypt. 246 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:37,780 Okay. 247 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:39,440 Why is it? 248 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,840 Yes. Well, Egypt's seen as very... Egypt's seen as separate. 249 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,800 Yeah, because I suppose Egypt never contested, did it? 250 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:47,760 Exactly. 251 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,840 Exactly. Although they've had their hand in things. 252 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:53,680 Right. Okay. 253 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:55,060 So... 254 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:58,640 All right. So, um... 255 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,720 I guess we'll start with... 256 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,360 All right. So a number... 257 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,400 One of the things that really frustrated me is that both sides have claimed the other 258 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,400 as entirely illegitimate at times. 259 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:26,000 So you've had the Arabs say that if the Zionists didn't exist, 260 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,880 then the Britons would have made them up. 261 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:39,920 The... And right-wing American, a number of Republicans have said that Palestine is a made-up country. 262 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:47,520 I find both of those views slightly ridiculous as if a person... 263 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,920 If people exist in front of you and they claim to be a thing, 264 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:57,360 yes, it might be something all culture is made up, 265 00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:06,720 but to claim that a group is illegitimate simply because it is man-made is ridiculous 266 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,720 because all countries are man-made. 267 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,720 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, from what I'm getting at the moment, 268 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,080 and please correct me if I'm wrong, 269 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,600 what I'm hearing is that a group of people that lived in this country 270 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,040 decided that they didn't want to be part of that country 271 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,560 but wanted to follow their own... 272 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:33,200 Be their own leaders, and therefore took a little area that grew and grew and grew 273 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,000 into its own country, which was the same country, 274 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,840 but they wanted to some... For some reason to keep it separate. 275 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,640 This is the really weird thing. Okay, so... 276 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,800 Also, just a fun fact to try and lighten the mood. 277 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,920 Do you know where the term... Like, have you heard of Jaffa oranges? 278 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:56,960 Yeah. 279 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,600 Okay, I hadn't. I hadn't even heard this. 280 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,440 I had no idea Jaffa cakes were called Jaffa cakes, 281 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:09,360 because they're named after Jaffa oranges, which in turn is a port city in Israel. 282 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:10,480 Oh. 283 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:11,120 Didn't know that. 284 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:12,480 Oh, okay. 285 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:18,080 Yeah. The second thing is, which came first, the oranges or the port city? 286 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,720 So are the oranges named after where they're from, 287 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,440 or is where they're from named after their produce? 288 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,160 Probably the first, but... 289 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,080 I'm going to go with the first, yeah. 290 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,720 Yeah, I think maybe... Yeah. 291 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,320 Okay. So, right, I've covered a brief. 292 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:44,320 So, in short, ancient land was conquered and inhabited by the Jewish people, 293 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,360 by the mandates of God and by their own will. 294 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:58,640 It was then captured, fractured, messed about all over the place, and eventually 295 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,360 attempted to be de-Jewified by the Romans. 296 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:06,400 That's a word and a half. 297 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:07,280 Which didn't really work. 298 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,640 Yeah, oh God, wrong word, but you know what I mean. 299 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,640 You know what, cut that. 300 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:19,920 You know what, cut that. The Romans tried to crush the Jewish people's spirit 301 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,400 and the Jewish people's way of doing things. 302 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,880 They tried to do what they do everywhere, which is make everyone Roman. 303 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:28,400 Yeah. 304 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:30,880 But yeah, so apologies. 305 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,400 Clearly for the Jewish, they have not had it easy, 306 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,920 and yet I've met quite a few Jewish people, and they seem pretty nice people. 307 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,560 Yeah, well, all people are people. 308 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,160 Alright, right. Yeah, I'm just tripping up over myself. 309 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:55,840 Right. The point is people have... 310 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,080 So, some of the Jews converted to Christianity. 311 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,680 Some of the Jews converted to Islam. 312 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,960 Over the thousands of years between ancient history and modern day, 313 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:21,680 the Jewish people in the area of Israel and Palestine became mostly Arab... Arabic. 314 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:30,480 Until something very specific happened in 1897. 315 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,360 Okay, what happened in 1897? 316 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,560 Alright, so the Zionist movement was born. 317 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:43,280 Okay. Now, I already know, I'll be completely honest. 318 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,560 Have you been told anything about the Zionist movement? 319 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,520 No, the most I know about Zion is from Bob Marley. 320 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,160 Okay, that's fair enough. Yeah, that's Rastafarianism. 321 00:24:54,160 --> 00:25:02,160 No, I mean literally, Iron Like a Lion in Zion is the lyric, and I have never heard it before 322 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,840 and after. No context for it. It's just a word and a song to me. 323 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,840 No, that's fair enough. It's also used as the name of the city in the Matrix films. 324 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,640 Yes. As the last bastion of humankind. 325 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,640 Actually, yeah, you are completely right. I am naive. I didn't remember that. 326 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:26,080 Not at all. It's literally a pop culture film. I'm not judging your intelligence based on your 327 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:34,080 ability to remember that or not. Right. The Zionist... so the Jewish... at the time of... 328 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:43,840 by the 1800s, the Jewish people had spread throughout Europe and the people who now lived 329 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:53,600 in Israel and Palestine were mostly Arabic with a very small Jewish community still knocking 330 00:25:53,600 --> 00:26:03,200 around everywhere as they do, which is fair enough. A number of Jews moved back to Israel 331 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:12,400 during the Russian persecutions through the 1800s under the rule of the czar's Alexander, 332 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,360 the first, second and third. That in itself will be a topic for another time. 333 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:26,080 Yeah. However, having said that, the majority was still Arabic. 334 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:27,840 Okay. Okay. 335 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:44,560 Okay. Zionism was a meeting arranged by somebody called Theodor Haazel. 336 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:54,720 And in it, it was originally put forward for the creation of a Jewish nation 337 00:26:54,720 --> 00:27:03,680 as Theodor had realized that Jews, as you've said, have had a hard time of it. Wherever they go, 338 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:11,440 they're different customs, their own, not insular nature, but their own cultural identity, which 339 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:20,160 doesn't necessarily immediately bleed into the country or change to accommodate the country 340 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:26,960 where they're in. The fact that they have a separate identity means that they are always 341 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,480 targeted as the alien, as the immigrant, as the outsider. 342 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:42,320 I can't help but think that somehow that's got a large amount to do with their input into the most 343 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:54,640 core religious matters. Yeah. I think I'm misunderstanding here. Please. 344 00:27:54,640 --> 00:28:15,600 So if you think about Jewish input into history, they're right at the middle of the Bible, 345 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:24,560 they're right at the head. Like you said, they're the key part in the Torah. Even in Islam, there's 346 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:31,040 heavy input from Jewish. Yeah. Islam and Christianity 347 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,800 both share the same foundations of the patriarch of Abraham. Yeah. 348 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,120 I don't know whether this is the truth or whatnot, but it's almost like the Jews, 349 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:52,640 the Jewish were here first and everybody else now doesn't like them because they're 350 00:28:54,320 --> 00:29:00,000 like the old ways. Yes, to be fair, there is a sustain, there is, 351 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:10,160 there is always going to be, is it, ah disdain, there we go. Yeah. 352 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:21,440 Disdain for the old ways, for ideas of sacrifice, for ideas of you have to do this because it's the 353 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:30,400 way it's always been done. Yeah. Everybody likes their freedom and in society, in the media, 354 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:36,400 it's very much always put through that you should, it is your fundamental right to 355 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:43,520 choose your own destiny and to do your own thing. I agree with that to a point. And again, 356 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,400 that's another conversation for another time. I mean, I've got to give the Jewish people credit 357 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:57,520 because throughout all of their subjugation and oppression, should we say for lack of a better 358 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:04,960 term, I mean, they were exiled through a desert for I don't know how long, 40 years. Yeah. And 359 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:12,560 they were culled during the second world war is the only word I think, like massives. 360 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:20,400 Yeah, it happened everywhere. Yeah. You know, I mentioned the Reconquista. Yeah. In Spain, 361 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:27,920 you know, when I talked about almost what's kind of put forward as the utopia of 362 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:36,080 art, science, literature, tolerance in the, is it mogul base in mogul Spain, 363 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:49,040 when the Muslims ruled Spain for a time. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, just as the Muslims were pushed 364 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:58,880 out in that time, the Jewish people did not have it easy during that time either. 365 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,680 But you got to give them credit, right? Because throughout it all, 366 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,840 they are still adamant they're going to do things their way. 367 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:18,480 You know what? Yeah, that's entirely true. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? They haven't disappeared. 368 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:26,240 It's incredible resilience. It's either incredible resilience, or incredible stupidity. 369 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,400 And I'm going to go towards it being incredible resilience, because I don't want to insult them. 370 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,400 I've got no reason to insult them. Yeah. Well, I think 371 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:44,480 what the thing that kind of gets me here is that during the Zionist meetings, 372 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:56,080 it was decided that they were going to try and move to Palestine, or move to the area of Palestine, 373 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:07,600 move to the old kingdom of Israel, and make it Jewish again. And they were going to go there, 374 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:15,040 they were going to go there, and they were going to set up their own Jewish nation. Interestingly, 375 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:22,960 a couple of people, even who had scouted out the area, noticed that the land isn't empty. 376 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:31,360 Most of the fields are being sown, and those who are there will not give up their place easily. 377 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:40,960 Yet, everyone ignored this one bloke who reported that, and the 200 congruence of the first Zionist 378 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:48,160 meeting all decided that it would be a good idea to still move there and to make it happen. 379 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,800 So Jewish people started moving back to Israel 380 00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:06,880 as a defined and specific political and religious movement of Zionism from 1897 onwards. 381 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:16,240 Okay, so the problem is that I said that the Jewish people were a minority at this time. 382 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:17,760 Yeah. 383 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:24,960 That possibly understates it. I'm not going to say that it's not like there were no Jewish people 384 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:32,320 there, but we're talking population of Iceland. Yeah, we're talking population of Iceland. Well, 385 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:38,560 population of Iceland is just about a million now. The population of Iceland compared to the 386 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:44,560 Jewish population of Iceland is about a million. Yeah, it's about a million. 387 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:50,720 The population of Iceland compared to the population of the UK. 388 00:33:51,520 --> 00:34:05,200 Yeah, yeah. It was so incredibly minimal that if you were an Arabic person and all of a sudden 389 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,920 people from all over Europe came around and started buying land, 390 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,640 the annoying thing is that so often people say, oh, they're coming over here and taking their jobs 391 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:25,280 and seeing this outside force as an invading force rather than seeing it as people. The annoying 392 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:34,880 thing with Zionism is that it gives some truth to that claim because the immigration, the immigration 393 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:46,640 to that claim because the immigration is organized and because the goal is to take over the land. 394 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:53,680 Yeah. That is my only problem. Originally, it was the most peaceful way of doing it. It's just, 395 00:34:53,680 --> 00:35:02,320 we're going to go over there and buy the land. Fair enough, but not if nobody wants to sell. 396 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:10,080 So Zionism started at the time of the Ottoman sultans. They had some rules and some restrictions 397 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:19,120 on buying land, but not a huge amount. Unfortunately, this is during the time of 398 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:29,120 the First World War, the Ottoman sultans aligned themselves with Germany, which means that 399 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:39,840 unfortunately England then starts rearing up its head and pulling some shady shit. 400 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:47,680 I'll put it to you this way. Can you guess how many different groups we promised 401 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:57,280 the land of, well, the Levatt or the land of Palestine and Israel to? How many groups do 402 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:03,840 we promise to? If only they'd throw off the shackles. By groups, do you mean? 403 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:13,840 I mean, separate political entities. Okay. Okay. I mean, 404 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:25,200 it's got to be a large number. I'm going to say about 20, but from what I know about the size of 405 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:33,440 Israel, there wouldn't have been enough for 10, 20. How many? 406 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:42,800 Four. Which I realize might sound bad, but like there is official documentation 407 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:52,400 of the British government promising to recognize the land of Israel and 408 00:36:52,400 --> 00:37:06,320 Palestine as a state to four different groups if they should throw off the bonds of the Ottoman 409 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:13,680 Empire. Right. Okay. So these were oppressed by the Ottomans. 410 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:19,680 Well, this is the thing. They were oppressed to a point where they were 411 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:25,440 well, this is the thing. They were oppressed to a point in that they couldn't self-determine. 412 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,680 And they were seen as a province of an empire rather than as a country. 413 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:40,400 Kind of like Ukraine in USSR. Yeah. Well, yeah, like any part of any empire, 414 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:46,640 there is a certain amount of suppression, which comes from being under the umbrella of a larger 415 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:54,640 force. But as bad as they had it under the Ottomans, which the book that I've read doesn't go into, 416 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:03,680 what happened following is incredibly bad. What happened was there was Lord 417 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:20,640 Mahon spoke to somebody called Hussein. And he promised between the years of 1914 to 1918, 418 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:30,960 he promised to make Palestine a state and give them the right of self-determination. 419 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:41,520 We also did that to four other groups within Palestine. But additionally, there was this 420 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:51,600 thing called the Balfour Declaration, where also in 1917, at the same time of the Hussein correspondence, 421 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:58,000 the English government promised to help the Jews set up their homeland. 422 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:08,880 And promised the Zionist state our support. Now, the really bad thing that happens here is at the 423 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:24,840 end of the First World War, rather than consolidating our reach, our 424 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:34,920 our reach and doing what we were doing. Like we had built the series canal at this point. 425 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:41,480 Yeah. For our listeners, the series canal is the canal that goes through Saudi Arabia. 426 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:51,480 No, sorry, Saudi Arabia. It goes through Egypt. It is like a short canal which joins two seas, 427 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:59,320 which stops traders in the Mediterranean Sea having to sail all the way around Africa 428 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:07,000 in order to get to India. It saved everyone a lot of time, a lot of effort. And we'll probably do 429 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:13,960 a podcast on it on a different point. It's an amazing piece of engineering. But at the end of 430 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:20,040 the day, it's digging a ditch, but it still has revolutionized the world. Apart from when a big 431 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:27,560 container, container boat just turned sideways and blocks itself in. And then the entire world economy 432 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:38,520 is affected. That most certainly has happened at some point. Yeah. I'm pretty sure there was a 433 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,200 shortage of graphics cards when I wanted to buy a graphics card because they were all stuck in the 434 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:49,880 sewers canal. Yep. And there's also a reason for that as well. Yeah, we'll touch upon that in another 435 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:57,160 point. Okay, annoyingly, at the end of this, despite the fact that the Palestinians did revolt 436 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:05,960 against the Ottoman sultans and the Ottoman Empire fell apart, rather than sticking to the promises 437 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:13,320 of either the Balfour Declaration or the Hussein Correspondence, we make another agreement 438 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:21,880 called the Skies-Picot Agreement. And rather than let people alone and let them do their own thing, 439 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:29,080 we divvied up the land. That wasn't ours to divvy up? That wasn't ours to divvy up. We divvied up 440 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:35,960 the land between ourselves and the French. Seems fair. I mean, you can, I mean, if I go into your 441 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:43,560 house, I can just start giving out your things to whoever I want to give it out to, right? Yeah, no, 442 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:49,080 that's completely fine. And you'll be absolutely fine with it. And we'll never end up in a fight. 443 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:55,640 No, exactly. We'll never end up in a fight over it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So this is the annoying 444 00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:06,360 thing. The Skies-Picot Agreement massively screwed over the Arab nations. It was a, 445 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:15,720 it was shitting on every promise England had made. So rather than having self-determination, 446 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:22,680 they were now, rather than being ruled by Istanbul, they were now ruled by London. 447 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:33,080 The way that England legitimized this was that we started, well, I can't, again, 448 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:38,120 ladies and gentlemen, I'm very sorry. I've done some research into this. I haven't done nearly 449 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:45,000 enough. At this time, there was something called the League of Nations, which was mostly the allied 450 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,600 states and mostly the rich allied states. Not to be confused. The League of Nations. 451 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:56,840 Not to be confused with League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. That was a film with Sean Connery. 452 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:07,160 Well, annoyingly, it's pretty, the same amount of racism and just generally, aren't we fantastic? 453 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:17,480 Ha ha ha. Beware the foreigner. Seems to have gone around. The old colonial powers couldn't keep 454 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:22,280 doing things the way they did. So they gave themselves a new name, the League of Nations, 455 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:30,040 and then continued to do things the same way that they always had. The League of Nations recognized 456 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:38,520 Paris, Palestine as something as a, what's called a mandate. Now, a mandate is a state which isn't 457 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:46,280 quite ready for self-governance yet. Right. So we stuck that label on them and said, you're not 458 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:54,600 ready to rule yourselves yet. You know, we might have promised you self-determination, but we're 459 00:43:54,600 --> 00:44:02,200 not going to let you do that. We're going to prop up your government. And what we're supposed to do 460 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,840 in the terms of international law is prop up the government and provide advice. 461 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:17,400 What we did between the years of 1917 and 1937 is actually, you know what? Yes. Can you guess what we 462 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:27,720 did? Stripped it, mined it, pilfered it as much as we possibly could. Fantastic. And what would be 463 00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:35,160 the best sort of government to do that? I mean, I would say shadow. I mean, like, 464 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:41,480 puppeteered. So an emplaced government. I can't think of the right word for it now. No, no, you're 465 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:46,600 absolutely right with emplaced, but we didn't even bother with the fucking puppets. Oh, right. 466 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:54,920 We just went, we didn't even pretend. We didn't even pretend. Your new leader is going, your new 467 00:44:54,920 --> 00:45:01,560 Sultan is going to be an Englishman. He was an Englishman. That's ridiculous. 468 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,920 Yeah. Most of the government was made up of ex army officers. 469 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:14,200 Yeah. You literally can't, you literally could not write this stuff. Unfortunately, 470 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:19,480 no idea. No idea why this war has continued for so long. 471 00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:28,280 Yeah. So understandably, the Palestinians were upset. Yeah. And there was, there was great civil 472 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:35,240 unrest. And to add to this, we weren't giving the Arabs the right to self-determine. 473 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,520 So whilst we were also supposed to be setting up their government for them, 474 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:51,240 rather than just acting as an advisory role, what we did instead was the government in Palestine 475 00:45:51,240 --> 00:46:01,960 reported to the British colonial office and the British treasury. It directly was accountable to 476 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:12,360 our colonial office. That's, well, that's not. It's not okay. Is it? No. Let's, let's just be 477 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:21,320 honest here. So having promised the Arabs the right to self-determine, we'd not even set up a 478 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:27,640 Shaft, Shaver government with, I'm not even, I'm not even sure if they, you know, we bothered to 479 00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:38,520 wear a turban or anything, just we put an Englishman and English people in charge of Palestine. And 480 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:44,840 we did that for 20 years and things got worse and worse as the Zionist movement at the same time 481 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:55,800 continued to move hundreds of thousands of Jewish people into a already overcrowded 482 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,160 place with which not enough room and resources for them. 483 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:10,120 All right. So, and so as you read this, you begin to understand both why, 484 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:18,040 well, we'll get to why the Israelis are angry in a minute, but you get to understand why the 485 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:24,120 Palestinians are annoyed. Yeah. I mean, annoyed is definitely the word I would use if I was in 486 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:33,400 their position. Yeah. No, well, it's, it's just, it, right. We'll move on to the next bit. In 1937, 487 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:42,600 uh, Britain, oh, by the way, just during this time, it was a shit show, just massive civil unrest and 488 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:50,520 too many, too many, too many, too many, too many, too many, too many, too many, too many, too many, 489 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:59,480 too many wars to count. And unfortunately, up until 1987, I'm not even going to list all the wars 490 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:07,160 I can imagine in Israel and Palestine. There's, there's, I'm sorry, listeners again, maybe another 491 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:12,120 time I'll probably redo that. If me and Nick are still doing this in 10 years, I will redo this 492 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,440 with everything bullet pointed right now. No, just too many. 493 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:24,120 Right. So the Zionists continued to move in and in 1937, um, as things got worse in Germany, more 494 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:34,680 of them also moved into Israel where they were not necessarily welcomed well, uh, by, by the Palestinians. 495 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:50,440 The Palestinians, so annoyingly during this time, um, England failed to even set up a puppet government. 496 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:57,880 It was just to set up a government which would be accepted by the people. Right. 497 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:04,040 Every time they brought somebody to the forefront, another group of people would shout, no, we don't want him. 498 00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:10,200 And I mean, with all due respect, I had a sneaking suspicion that that would be the case. 499 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:21,080 Yeah. Given the fact that they were there in the first place. Exactly. Um, when trying to use anybody of the, the, uh, 500 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:28,440 Arabic notable class, um, it just didn't work. It just, I don't know exactly what happened, 501 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:39,640 but England completely failed to set up, um, a, a government. Uh, the Arab Arabs were incredibly angry with, 502 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:49,320 with England and so would, so there was rioting on the streets. Um, and so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, 503 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:55,560 so there was rioting on the streets. Weirdly enough, the Jewish people were also angry with England and their hand, 504 00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:02,600 handling of the situation. And so at one point, uh, bombed the King David Hotel, 505 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:09,480 uh, which is where the, a number of British officials stayed. Um. 506 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,720 I bet that went down like a lead balloon. Massively. Uh, 507 00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:26,920 England, uh, at the time of the death of the League of Nations, as the UN, um, started to become a thing, 508 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:39,160 uh, England immediately handed over, uh, the problem of Israel and Palestine to the UN. 509 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:48,360 Um, the, there were also a number of accords and a number of iron illnesses and a number of attempts to 510 00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:55,880 make agreements, uh, between the Jewish and the Palestinian people. However, during this time, 511 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:04,760 no official government was set up. And when we left Mandate Palestine. 512 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:12,120 Right. We left no government in place. 513 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:20,680 The, the, the, the British colonial officer, or the British governor of that, of Palestine, 514 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:31,400 left his keys under the mat and a note saying, good luck with your experiments in non-anarchy. 515 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:40,760 Right. It's ridiculous. Yeah. Like you can't, I mean, this is the place on the planet, which is 516 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:54,040 probably the most significant, um, for the three Abrahamic faiths. It had a huge number of people 517 00:51:54,040 --> 00:52:01,160 living in this area, you know, like, and you gave no structure or system in which, after, 518 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:09,480 after having gone in and stirred the pot for 50 years, absolutely 30 years. Yeah. You've gone in, 519 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:15,640 stirred the pot, messed everything up and made it even more unsettled and then gone quick. 520 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:17,960 Midnight dash. 521 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:27,080 Let's get out. Yeah. It's frustrating. It's really frustrating. It's just, it's. 522 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,520 Were we ever held accountable as, like, were we ever held accountable for. 523 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:40,120 So, so this is, so this is some of the stuff that happened. Okay. So. 524 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:49,240 We stepped back way too quickly. We handed it over to the UN. The UN then tried to do negotiations 525 00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:57,400 again. There had already been several negotiations, but the, the Palestine people have had a number of 526 00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:04,520 groups represent them at different times. And so, and I think that's the, that's the, that's the 527 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:11,400 Palestine people have had a number of groups represent them at different times and have also 528 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:19,960 had a number of more local Arabic nations by an intervene on their behalf. Yeah. So the annoying 529 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:30,600 thing about Palestine and Israel is everybody's got their finger in the pie. And England at the 530 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:39,560 wrong time and in the wrong way decided we're going to take our finger out of this. Annoyingly. 531 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:48,680 The thing is the, like, you wouldn't trust if you were in their position, either Jewish or, 532 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:55,880 or Palestinian. So either Israeli or Palestinian. You wouldn't trust anybody 533 00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:01,480 that said they were there to help. Because, yeah. And that's it. And that's exactly why. 534 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:09,480 Cause a number of, a number of genuinely well-meaning people have actually come up with a 535 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:17,320 with a number of good, good, a number of good 536 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:24,120 suggestions, sorry, a number of good suggestions, a number of good things to put in place, which have 537 00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:33,320 them been rejected because there's no trust there. Yeah. Because historically there's no reason. 538 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:41,320 You've created two of the most paranoid nations on the planet. Like they're living in the most 539 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:51,320 religious area on the planet for the vast majority of the population of the entire planet. And 540 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:59,960 then you've made them the most paranoid people. Well, this is the annoying thing. So during this 541 00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:07,080 time, the UN tried to come up with an idea and I'm just looking at something in the book here 542 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:17,080 called the 1937 Peel commission partition plan, which I can clearly see it and it does make sense. 543 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:25,080 And it's got a proposed Jewish state and it's got a proposed Arab state. And then it's got an area to 544 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:35,080 remain under the British mandate, which is the holy sites to give both peoples access to the 545 00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:43,080 peoples access. Now the annoying thing, why the English still wanted to hold those religious points? 546 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:51,080 Well, it's to be fair. I think it was literally a question of partition. Right. It's because the 547 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:59,080 people were getting on, were not getting on. Yeah. That it was done. The problem is, is that in the, 548 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:09,080 I'm trying to think of the right, it's so it's annoyingly, it's somewhat similar to the India 549 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:19,080 Pakistan thing where partition was done and it was done incredibly badly. The way that the problem, 550 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:31,080 the reason why it ended up not happening is because in the Jewish area, the new Jewish state 551 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:41,080 would have had over 100,000 Arabs who would then be subject to an entirely hostile government. 552 00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:49,080 And there were several, and there were a couple of thousand Jews in the Arab bit. So it's like, 553 00:56:49,080 --> 00:57:01,080 how do you hand over, how do you hand over the, this state or how do you hand over these people 554 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:09,080 to another set of people? And that seems to be the core of the conflict in that the lines keep on 555 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:19,080 moving. The people who live in certain areas feel a demand of, you know, everyone's got the right to 556 00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:31,080 live somewhere. Right. What really annoys me is that the Zionist movement is taking Jewish people 557 00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:44,080 of Jewish descent who have moved throughout the lands for thousands of years. And all right, you know, 558 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:50,080 I'll be honest with you. There would have been some interbreeding in that point. And although they are, 559 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:57,080 they are still legitimately Jewish. Yeah. Yeah. My problem is, is that the people in Palestine, 560 00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:06,080 they may have converted to Islam. Yeah. Yeah. And they may also, they may have interbred more with 561 00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:18,080 other races, but, and they may not identify themselves as Jewish, but they themselves are also 562 00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:26,080 going to be the descendants in part, at least, and probably a number of people will take offense at this, 563 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:34,080 but a number of Palestinians will be have, will be descended from the original ancient Jews. Yeah. 564 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:40,080 Like, you're not saying that they are Jewish in religion. You're saying that genetically they're the same. 565 00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:52,080 I'm saying, they've got the same roots. I'm saying genetically, like, both may very well be, 566 00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:58,080 may be mixed with other races or mixed with one part this and one part that or whatever, 567 00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:08,080 but all the people, both the people moving back to Palestine and the people in Palestine will have 568 00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:22,080 some Jewish heritage. And it, it frustrates me that both, it frustrates me that it's seen as, 569 00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:29,080 you know, I'm not doing a good job of this. I shouldn't have started this when I had a, am I going, 570 00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:45,080 right, I'm going to, I'll cover something really quickly. During the, this is the modern context. 571 00:59:45,080 --> 01:00:00,080 Israel has been, Israel is generally, from what I've read, more organized than Palestine 572 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:12,080 because it is backed by the West and the foreign nations and the Zionist movement. Yeah. 573 01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:26,080 And it has one clear, solid identity. The Palestinians are backed by a number of Arabic organizations 574 01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:37,080 and sorry, Islamic organizations, but there's still not enough of a core there. 575 01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:48,080 And none of the cores, the wrong word. There's no one group which represents the Palestinian people perfectly. 576 01:00:48,080 --> 01:01:01,080 What's happened over the years is that a, an organization will resist the, resist Israel, 577 01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:11,080 will get the backing of the people. It will then try and, it will then try and negotiate with Israel 578 01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:17,080 and with the West in order to get what they need. And whilst they do the negotiations, 579 01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:23,080 the fact that they back down on key points means they then lose the backing of the people 580 01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:33,080 and are then replaced by a more vehement and violent organization. 581 01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:45,080 So you had Fatiha, Fatiha was replaced by the LPO and the gentleman Arafat. 582 01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:51,080 And then when he wasn't able to deliver on the promises, people got frustrated with him. 583 01:01:51,080 --> 01:02:04,080 And he was then replaced by, by Hamas, which is now the organization doing it in, doing stuff currently. 584 01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:11,080 But Hamas is, it's got the support of the people, but it's, it is a fringe. 585 01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:16,080 It is part of the Muslim Brotherhood, but it's not all of the Muslim Brotherhood. 586 01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:26,080 And it's, it's weird that you just get this churning ideology where the moment some, 587 01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:32,080 the moment they get close to peace, time and time again, the people who have been negotiating 588 01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:41,080 on behalf of the Palestinians have lost the backing of their people because they're, 589 01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:49,080 because the agreements that they are now making aren't good enough for what both sides want. 590 01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:50,080 Yeah. 591 01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:51,080 If that makes sense. 592 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:52,080 Yeah. 593 01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:59,080 And annoyingly, it's really frustrating because like the number of wars is ridiculous. 594 01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:05,080 Israel has been, has been backed by the West and it's not just been backed by the West, 595 01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:16,080 it's been armed by the West and Israeli security forces on several occasions. 596 01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:25,080 They started, after a while, they, Zionists meant that the Israelites, sorry, 597 01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:32,080 that the Jewish people moved in, in massive numbers into Palestine. 598 01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:41,080 They also, rather than just going to the ancient hill countries of Judea and Samaria, 599 01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:46,080 they stayed in the cities, so where they can make life work. 600 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:58,080 In 1990, 75% of the Jewish people lived in cities and only 25% of the people lived in lands. 601 01:03:58,080 --> 01:03:59,080 Yeah. 602 01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:04,080 That could be, that is also, there were also restrictions on buying land, 603 01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:11,080 so it's not entirely their fault, but they were mostly in the cities. 604 01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:21,080 The Palestinian, the Palestinian people, after a while, didn't like the fact that loads of people are moving in. 605 01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:28,080 And so, you know, civil unrest and attacks and all kinds of horribleness happened. 606 01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:34,080 And then the Jewish people, after a while, rather than moving away, 607 01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:46,080 although between the years of 1927 and 1928, more Jewish people left Israel and Palestine than emigrated to. 608 01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:48,080 So the population diminished. 609 01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:52,080 Yeah, but other than that, it's always been on the rise. 610 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,080 Okay. 611 01:04:54,080 --> 01:05:04,080 As this has happened, as attacks have increased and stuff, the divide has gotten wider and wider, 612 01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:14,080 and the economies just haven't interacted well and the trade has been bad and it's not been good for either of them. 613 01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:34,080 As Israel has armed up all of its forces in order to try and, well, the attacks on its citizens, this creates more anger. 614 01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:45,080 Annoyingly, Israel then started, well, started in the 1960s, although it was before this, stuff did happen before this, 615 01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:59,080 but during the UN, after the UN partition, there was a particular gentleman who started this way of doing things. 616 01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:18,080 I'm trying to find his name here in the book, but there was a gentleman whose basic tactic was to overreact, 617 01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:23,080 because by overreacting, you stop the violence. 618 01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:31,080 And although that works in short term, what it does is it makes the person who attacked you no longer, 619 01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:35,080 they don't question, oh, well, maybe what I did was wrong. 620 01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:41,080 They then feel like a victim because what they did seems so small to the reaction. 621 01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:58,080 Unfortunately, this was something that started in the 1960s and then continued on, and is still, 622 01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:09,080 you can see it in the modern day news reports of the Israelis' actions to the terrorist actions of Hamas. 623 01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:12,080 Right. You know? 624 01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:23,080 And like, so it's kind of, it's really, really annoying that with this conflict, that it is just repeating itself time and time and time again. 625 01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:36,080 It's also incredibly annoying that we did, that Britain played such a terrible part in setting up the problem and that. 626 01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:38,080 Well, let's say adding to the problem. 627 01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:47,080 But additionally, America has tried to mediate peace talks and a number of. 628 01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:58,080 So like there's the Brussels Accord, there's the Oslo Accord, there's the Camp David Accord, 629 01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:14,080 there's several talks that happened in the White House in several presidential retreats over the years where America and the UN have tried to facilitate peace in this place. 630 01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:18,080 And just every single time. 631 01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:23,080 It has failed. 632 01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:27,080 Well, it doesn't sound like it's getting any better. 633 01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:29,080 Yeah, I'm really sorry listeners. 634 01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:39,080 I've just I've gone off on one and I don't mean to be entirely negative, but just the situation is horrible and learning about this stuff has just genuinely. 635 01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:48,080 Well, you said before when before we started the podcast that like your research into this has genuinely depressed you. 636 01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:57,080 Yeah, it's feel the turmoil of the entire situation. 637 01:08:57,080 --> 01:09:02,080 Both sides. 638 01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:05,080 You can call a reprisal a reprisal. 639 01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:18,080 But if you're if you're killing people armed with stones with machine guns. 640 01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:23,080 It really doesn't seem like an honorable fight or an honorable reaction. 641 01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:29,080 Yeah. So who in like in context, who is the one with the gun? 642 01:09:29,080 --> 01:09:37,080 So so so Israel has had military superiority. 643 01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:42,080 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the Israeli army is is one of the best in the world. 644 01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:45,080 That's why it being so small. 645 01:09:45,080 --> 01:10:00,080 And annoyingly, well, not annoyingly, but like the in the 1960s, there again have been wars and Israel has trumped everywhere. 646 01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,080 Everyone and everything. 647 01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:15,080 But I think the direct military assaults of your enemies does not quell the unrest of the people under behind them. 648 01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:17,080 If that makes sense. No, it doesn't. 649 01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:19,080 No, it's just you won a few games of chess. 650 01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:21,080 Well done. Exactly. 651 01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:43,080 Annoyingly, though, I can understand why Israel has resorted to violence because there have been so many accords, so many white papers, so many foreign nations putting forward proposals and making promises and trying to come up with solutions. 652 01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:53,080 And no one can agree like they apparently they came. 653 01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:57,080 Apparently, Bill Clinton came close. 654 01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:22,080 In his time, apparently Barack Obama came close, but there's just there's been no solid agreement. Both sides have a bloody nose and both sides are not willing to 655 01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:29,080 Yeah, just there doesn't seem to be a clear solution. Right. I'm really sorry about this. 656 01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:32,080 I'm done at this point. 657 01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:38,080 Listeners, thank you very much for bearing with me. 658 01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:48,080 Hopefully that gives some idea as to what's happened here or what's happened. 659 01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:57,080 I certainly feel a lot more enlightened as to what like the context for the entire fight is, but I don't still don't know whether or not. 660 01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:20,080 I agree with our approach. I don't know whether I agree with the perspective. I absolutely understand the anger that people have towards the actions, the current actions and the previous actions of both parties. 661 01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:28,080 But I mean, there is no there's genuinely no resolving this is there. 662 01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:53,080 Or it's there might there might be, but it would just require huge cooperation. I think with multiple with most with the most extreme volatile important part of the globe for so many people. 663 01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:58,080 Like this is going to be a cake that they fight over for a very, very long time. 664 01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:04,080 And has this is. Yeah, absolutely. It's. 665 01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:06,080 What you said. 666 01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:13,080 It is it's it's very, it's very sad. Like it's just. 667 01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:19,080 I'm not going to say the annoying thing is. 668 01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:27,080 Palestinians have the right to live. Yeah, as to as to the and is and is and exactly that's why that's where I'm going. 669 01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:33,080 As to the end is as the as do the Jewish people have the right to live. 670 01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:48,080 Arguably, if arguably Zionism wouldn't have happened if Europe wasn't so anti-semitic. 671 01:13:48,080 --> 01:14:10,080 And then if if Zionism hadn't have happened, then then the then some of the troubles wouldn't have happened. But then again, if England hadn't of lied to so many different Arabic groups. 672 01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:16,080 And then just gone in and carved up the country anyway, and then left. 673 01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:20,080 Yeah. And then left with nothing with it. 674 01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:28,080 It's weirdly enough, Mandate Palestine is the only colony left without out of government. 675 01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:33,080 In English history and in all in all other cases. 676 01:14:33,080 --> 01:14:36,080 There was something where there was something we're not. We're not struck. 677 01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:38,080 You know, yeah, build on. 678 01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:46,080 You could all you know, in some cases that it would have been better than others, but there was something. 679 01:14:46,080 --> 01:15:03,080 Maybe the or maybe the opportunity that was sought at that point by the British was the opportunity for a war not to find resolution, but to continue for a long time. 680 01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:14,080 Because war is one of the best moneymakers in the world. 681 01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:30,080 Yeah, no, but annoyingly, Russia, the US and several European countries, including us, do make weapons and. 682 01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,080 It's a hell of a business. Yeah. 683 01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:37,080 And there's there's definitely been sold. Yeah. 684 01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:46,080 To organizations in this area as well. So we cannot pretend that our hands are clean on this. 685 01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:48,080 Absolutely. I'm sorry. Right. 686 01:15:48,080 --> 01:16:02,080 You're actually listeners next time. I'm going to try and do a lighter topic or at the very least a more focused one on maybe an individual character of some kind. 687 01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:05,080 We'll we'll find we'll find out as and when it happens. 688 01:16:05,080 --> 01:16:08,080 Thank you very much for listening listeners. Yeah. 689 01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:36,080 And take care. 690 01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:53,080 Yeah.