1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000
Hi, Nick here from Pods with Nick and James. Just a quick one before we get into this podcast.

2
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:12,000
I want to say a massive thank you for the support that we've received since starting these podcasts.

3
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,000
We thoroughly enjoy it and we look forward to creating more.

4
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:23,000
If you want to have your say on any topics that we've discussed or suggest future topics,

5
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:30,000
you can do so at www.reddit.com.com.au.

6
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:35,000
And if you want to support us, you can do so from as little as £1 a month.

7
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:40,000
You can do that at www.patreon.com.au.

8
00:00:40,000 --> 00:01:08,000
Anyway, back to the podcast.

9
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:14,000
Hello and welcome back to Pods with Nick and James. My name's Nick. This is James.

10
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,000
Hey there.

11
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:22,000
And today our topic is mental health. I didn't want to start with a pun on this one because

12
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,000
A. I don't have the creativity to think of a good one for mental health.

13
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:32,000
But B. I wanted to think about this topic as a bit more of a serious topic.

14
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:40,000
People I don't think, especially in the country we live in, take this topic as seriously as they should.

15
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,000
I think mental health is a universal problem.

16
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:49,000
I know back in the 10th century, 11th century, it wasn't seen as such.

17
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,000
It was seen as a weakness of the minority.

18
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,000
But I think everybody suffers from mental health issues at some point.

19
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,000
And people need to be free and open to discuss that.

20
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,000
Anyway, hi James. How are you doing?

21
00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:16,000
Hi there. I would start by saying that in olden times the process of mourning was not used as a cover up,

22
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,000
but it was endorsed.

23
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:26,000
So people were allowed to have mental health issues if they were mourning the loss of a loved one.

24
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:33,000
Outside of that, yeah, absolutely, it was weakness, choice, scum.

25
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,000
The short of it.

26
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:42,000
Absolutely. So I thought I'd start with quite an easy one.

27
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:48,000
We'll see if we can name some common causes of mental health issues.

28
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:54,000
So obviously money is quite a big cause of mental health issues, isn't it?

29
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,000
It is. It is. I think it is.

30
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,000
Annoyingly though, and this is going to sound really bad,

31
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:08,000
but it's more of an issue in adults who do and don't have money.

32
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:16,000
I think when it comes to kids, like as long as the basic needs are met,

33
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:24,000
and as long as the social needs are met, people can be happy.

34
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,000
But yeah, money is a huge contributing factor.

35
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:32,000
I think the pressure of society of if do you own your own house?

36
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:40,000
If you don't and you lose your job and you're not necessarily signed on or anything like that,

37
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:47,000
or just the battle that people have to go through to get signed on and to get provision,

38
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,000
can have a huge toll on people's mental health.

39
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,000
But sorry, I'm going off on one. You're leading this one.

40
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,000
No, you're absolutely fine.

41
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,000
As I said, I wanted to go over a list of common reasons for mental health issues.

42
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,000
And as you said, society is a massive pressure and it does add to mental health issues.

43
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,000
The stipulations and the... I mean, I know I've said this in the past.

44
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,000
I'm autistic, yourself too.

45
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:16,000
There are certain social requirements that are unwritten.

46
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,000
And you know what? Growing up, I had to learn that the hard way.

47
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,000
And that was a massive issue with my mental health.

48
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,000
Because I didn't fit in society in the same way that everybody else did.

49
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:34,000
I was the kind of kid that wouldn't see why people needed to have to be quiet at a funeral.

50
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,000
Now I understand because somebody had the decency to explain that to me.

51
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,000
And you know what? It makes sense.

52
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,000
But at the time, because I was young and I was autistic,

53
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,000
I didn't have the capacity to look at the big picture and go,

54
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,000
you know what? This is mourning. People need to be reflecting.

55
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,000
And as such, talking through somebody's reflection is insulting.

56
00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,000
You know, those kind of intricacies of society,

57
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:07,000
they put unknown pressure on, I think, a lot of young people and adults especially.

58
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,000
I know I suffer a lot because of things like that.

59
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:17,000
I think...

60
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:22,000
I mean, it's...

61
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:30,000
It's hard because I think people have stuff explained to them.

62
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:36,000
It's interesting that mental health is becoming more and more of a thing like it.

63
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,000
And to begin with, it was just something for rich people.

64
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:46,000
But you know what? I think you can clearly see the stamp of mental illness throughout history.

65
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:53,000
I mean, the number of rulers who go mad, not just with power,

66
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:59,000
but you know, like just their own mental stability falling apart over the years,

67
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,000
the number of people who...

68
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:08,000
Well, I guess the endorsed coping mechanism for absolutely centuries,

69
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,000
if not thousands of years, was alcohol.

70
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,000
But we won't... Maybe we'll touch upon this a little bit,

71
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,000
but mental illness leading to alcoholism,

72
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:26,000
but also alcoholism being used as a way of not just the individual coping,

73
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,000
but, oh, this person's just drunk.

74
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,000
Yeah. It's the way you're perceived, isn't it?

75
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:39,000
You look at somebody who's sat at the side of the road,

76
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:50,000
and the common knee-jerk response, mental response, is druggy or alcoholic, you know.

77
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:56,000
Instead of going, sick person needs help, you know?

78
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,000
Yeah.

79
00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,000
Which is quite sad, really, isn't it?

80
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:04,000
It is sad, but at the same time it's also difficult to know how to help.

81
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,000
Yeah. And I think that's the fear, isn't it?

82
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:12,000
I think a lot of people don't respond out of fear of what reaction they're going to get.

83
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,000
You know, my mum always used to say,

84
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,000
oh, don't talk to the homeless people. They want to be where they are.

85
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,000
Whereas I was always like, but they're homeless. They've got nothing.

86
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,000
If I've got something, I want to give it to them.

87
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:29,000
Or if I've got more of something than they have, then I will share with them, you know.

88
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,000
But my mum was like, no, no, no, don't talk to them. They want to be where they are.

89
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,000
And I'm like, I'm not sure that's really true, mum.

90
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,000
Yeah, that's not always true anyway.

91
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,000
That is an oversimplification of an incredibly complex problem.

92
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,000
My mum is the queen of oversimplifications.

93
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:51,000
But to be fair, though, like, as you were having this conversation with her,

94
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,000
was she trying to get her shopping done?

95
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,000
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

96
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,000
There you go.

97
00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:00,000
It was normally outside Sainbury's supermarket in Southend.

98
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:08,000
Yes. She didn't have her A-frame with her and she didn't have 45 minutes to put aside to give you a brief overview.

99
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,000
She had four kids. She had four kids.

100
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,000
Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a... That'll do it.

101
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,000
That will give you a couple of syllables answer there.

102
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:24,000
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's another thing, isn't it, that is a common cause to mental health issues.

103
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:30,000
Like the pressure of parenthood. My mum was a single parent of four children.

104
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,000
And as a result, her mental health suffered massively.

105
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:44,000
And like as much as family, like her family, would help, they weren't obligated to help.

106
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,000
My mum certainly wouldn't push them to help.

107
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,000
They wouldn't help as much as I see some families helping.

108
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:58,000
And that meant the pressure was all on her. So her mental health was a big problem growing up for me.

109
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:13,000
You know. Anyway, the reason why I didn't necessarily list, I didn't have a list in my notes of common causes of mental health issues is because I feel like it's an open book.

110
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,000
It's an open book.

111
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:21,000
Is it? Is it? Well, no, I completely agree. It is an open book. Should we try and go through some of those now?

112
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,000
Would you would you like us to try? Yeah. Let's go over some of those.

113
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:34,000
Absolutely. Let's let's as I said, like money and society, like parenthood, even the pressures of parenthood.

114
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:40,000
Like, yeah. What else can you think of that quite commonly causes?

115
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:45,000
Right. Change, loss of employment.

116
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:52,000
If I'm honest, mourning. Sorry, I realize I'm also I'm really worried I'm mispronouncing that. Is there a different way of pronouncing the loss of one?

117
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,000
No, absolutely. Grieving.

118
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:59,000
It does literally sound like the time of, okay, grieving. That's the better way.

119
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:13,000
Grieving in reaction in reaction to illness, in reaction to malnutrition to a point.

120
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,000
Sleeplessness. I know. Sleeplessness can also lead to it.

121
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:26,000
Yeah. Excess, I think. I say excess as a generalization, like excessive alcohol use, excessive drug use.

122
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,000
Addiction. Yeah. Generally addiction addiction of any kind.

123
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:39,000
The annoying thing is, is like so many of these things are a bit of a reciprocal circle or repeating circle.

124
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:45,000
You know, like you get addicted to something because you're in because you feel like you're in a bad place.

125
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,000
Yeah. Yeah. And then you get and then you get in a truly bad place.

126
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:57,000
And then you cause heal momentarily with that addiction that you've got, which gives you a momentary release of serotonin.

127
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:04,000
It makes you feel a little bit better. But then you crash again afterwards. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Any more?

128
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:15,000
Yeah. So annoyingly, like so I said change, but also stifling repetition, boredom.

129
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:23,000
Yeah. Unfortunately, I think you were right to not make a list because it is ongoing, isn't it?

130
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:28,000
That's the point I was making. I mean, I literally wrote star insert as necessary star.

131
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:38,000
The reason I did that was because what I feel affects my mental health isn't going to be the same as what you feel affects your mental health.

132
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:46,000
And who am I to judge how your mental health is affected? And it's the same with everyone else.

133
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,000
I think one of the biggest things that people are too quick to do, especially keyboard warriors,

134
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:58,000
sat on Facebook looking through their lists. They're too quick to judge what other people are being affected by.

135
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:07,000
You know what? Your cat died. Fair enough. I wouldn't necessarily be as affected by it as you are, but it was my cat. Yeah.

136
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:19,000
I should be respectful enough of you and you as a human being, not even as somebody that I know, but you as a human being to say, I hope you're okay, mate.

137
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:28,000
Because that's all it takes. Yeah. You know, I don't, I might not comprehend why that is affecting you as much,

138
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:33,000
but I do understand that if you're affected, what you need to know is that people are there.

139
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:41,000
And not have somebody go, oh, you're just being a wuss. You're just being a wuss. What a pathetic thing to get upset about.

140
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:46,000
Well, you don't need that. For Christ's sake, people, please. Yeah.

141
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:52,000
Or to be fair, the way that could be inflected is it's a cat. Yeah.

142
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:59,000
Or something along those lines. But then again, I haven't done that properly because I'm not going to put the levels of contempt.

143
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:06,000
No, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you're saying. Yeah. It's just like, but it's like,

144
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:16,000
it's if there was something in your life that brought you joy on a daily basis and then it is taken away from you,

145
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:27,000
it should not be surprising for anyone if you then behave differently or are grieving for a period of time.

146
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:43,000
It's the annoying thing is it's just what makes up the important things of every human being's day is completely.

147
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:48,000
It's so different for every single individual, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

148
00:13:48,000 --> 00:14:02,000
Like everybody's got their fix of some kind. And if stroking and feeding that cat was that person's fix, then yeah, it's going to mess them up.

149
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:11,000
Yeah. See, I'm a man of routine. Yeah. So I obviously I had two weeks off sick recently.

150
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:19,000
I had an operation and I had two weeks off sick. I went back yesterday and it's all changed.

151
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,000
It's all changed. My position in the office has changed.

152
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:27,000
Like I've got to now sit on the end of a bench as opposed to by the window, which is going to affect me.

153
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,000
Noise levels are going to be different because I'm in a more crowded area of the office.

154
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,000
My manager's changed. My teammates have all changed.

155
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:45,000
And like my anxiety, as soon as I realized all of those things I was going to have to deal with, like my desk has moved and none of my stuff been taken over.

156
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,000
So I've now got to go in and find all that stuff in the office and take it to my desk.

157
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:59,000
And like the anxiety that I felt immediately spiked and I was like I start by found myself by about three o'clock in the afternoon looking for other jobs.

158
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:05,000
I was like, hold on Nick, this is just because change. You need to just give it a minute. You'll be fine.

159
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,000
But I had that moment where I was like, no, I'm done.

160
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:14,000
But I know that's the autistic in me and I struggle with change as it is anyway and I overreact to it.

161
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,000
But I also understand that that's a trait of mine and therefore I need to give myself a moment.

162
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,000
So I was just allowing myself or I have a look at things, you know, have a look at other jobs.

163
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:28,000
You'll realize that it's not like you're going to go through more stress trying to find something to replace this minor inconvenience.

164
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,000
Then you are like to get over this issue.

165
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:39,000
But, you know, just it's horrible having to go through those remedial things.

166
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:45,000
And like I said, like some people you might get up in the morning and for three days in the morning exactly the same thing might happen.

167
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:50,000
It might be as simple as you stub your toe on the edge of the bed every morning for three mornings.

168
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,000
But that's going to affect by the third morning you're going to be like, oh, for Christ's sake, is nothing going to happen.

169
00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:02,000
And because that one thing happens in the morning, everything throughout the day is going to feel that little bit more bitter.

170
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:09,000
You know, and that is, people don't understand how the little things all stack up.

171
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,000
But it is. It's exactly that. It could be as simple as you stub your toe, you know.

172
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:23,000
But it puts a bit of pill in your mouth and all of a sudden everything else you view the world differently and everything else is just that little bit more bitter and feels that little bit worse.

173
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,000
You know, you can't get the right newspaper at the shop.

174
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,000
So that's obviously a personal attack against you.

175
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,000
You get stuck in traffic on the way to work.

176
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:40,000
Like, obviously that's personal and it's because it's you, you know.

177
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:48,000
I think weirdly enough, this thing where you're talking about it being personal has just made me think something.

178
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,000
There's a big cause of mental illness that we didn't cover.

179
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,000
Go on. Bullying. Bullying.

180
00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:01,000
Bullying, yeah. Yeah. I know. I suffered a lot of bullying when I was growing up, when we spoke about this during the education podcast.

181
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:08,000
And my mental health was ridiculous growing up. I had to have counselling on numerous occasions.

182
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,000
Obviously I was in foster care as well, so that didn't help matters.

183
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:18,000
But yeah, bullying was a massive cause of my mental health issues growing up.

184
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000
Well, sorry, mate. But it's just, yeah, you're right.

185
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:29,000
But it's just, it's interesting that we all learn to cope with little things.

186
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,000
So like we learn to tolerate the little things getting changed.

187
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,000
But it's not necessarily because we've learned to accept.

188
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:45,000
Like in that difference between acceptance and tolerance is like is massive.

189
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:58,000
Tolerance is you put a brave face on it, even though something pisses you off or something, you know, horribly affects you.

190
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:04,000
Tolerance is like going, it's not OK, but I'm going to just, you know, I'm going to be respectful.

191
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:09,000
I'm going to still abide by the expectations and laws of society.

192
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:25,000
Like it's just it just makes me think, though, that Mike is the process of growing up just put in a brave face on things.

193
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:32,000
And it is because I know we all get more resilient to a point.

194
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:40,000
But it's just kind of made me think about how when you're a kid, like I will admit things have gotten a lot better for myself,

195
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:48,000
like walking down the street as a teenager, you get shitty comments from other teenagers and from other people.

196
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:58,000
I don't know if society has just gotten kinder or if that's just an age thing or if it's the fact that I'm six foot four and way God knows how many stone now.

197
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:04,000
But I don't know. Sorry. I don't know where I'm going with that, mate.

198
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:10,000
It's just. No, you're right. It does.

199
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:22,000
It does feel like it can feel like things are a personal attack, like you'll always feel like the lights are turning red when you're late for something,

200
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:32,000
simply because the fact that they're turning red when you need to get somewhere causes that bit more stress and that bit more mental triggers.

201
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:40,000
And you may well face the same amount of red lights on a normal day, but because you're not faced with that time constraint, you don't notice them.

202
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,000
You can just sit back and enjoy the ride, you know.

203
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:59,000
But you know, you're absolutely right. Anyway, the main thing I wanted to make the main point I wanted to make in that is, yes, there are a broad spectrum of all the reasons why people are affected and the mental health is affected.

204
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:06,000
And they're going to be different for everybody. Just allow them to be different for everybody, you know.

205
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:17,000
It's not as bad as it used to be. I will say this. Mental health issues are new, as we know. As long as there's been a brain, there's been mental health issues.

206
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:26,000
However, our perception of them has changed massively over the last hundred years, let alone over the last 2000 years.

207
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:36,000
Let's go back. Let's go back. Let's go back to the first recorded instance of treatment of mental health.

208
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:44,000
Do you know what the first known treatment of mental health was?

209
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:52,000
I've got look at. Oh, I've got loads of guesses. How many how many guesses? You can have as many as you want. I would be amazed if you got it.

210
00:20:52,000 --> 00:21:07,000
Fantastic. OK, so the first one I imagine was they took a spear and then they shoved it through your heart and then and then and then and then you stop complaining and saying things that they disagree with.

211
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:24,000
Generally like that's the other option is they grab your head and then they chop it off specifically to stop you saying things that I want to just say to the viewers, to the listeners, as dark as it sounds like James is going here.

212
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:38,000
He's bang on the money. He is right in there with why like his reasoning behind his suggestions is bang on the money. And I'll get to that in a minute. I'll let you carry on.

213
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:57,000
OK, well, OK, so I can. All right, so I can talk. In in ancient days, if somebody was mentally unwell, for example, if you were a powerful ruler, they'd say, oh, you're eccentric.

214
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:11,000
If you were poor, you were demon possessed. You know, and now this is annoying because I don't want to weird out listeners too much, but I think there is more to this world than what we see in front of us.

215
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:29,000
And I do think that there there are elements where, you know, there's a lot of things that can be explained, but I still believe there are things which can't be explained. And I sometimes think that there are elements where.

216
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:42,000
You know what? No, I'll just say it truthfully. I believe in demons to a point. I don't you know, not necessarily fucking goat creatures with fucking horns, all of that stuff. But I do think there are, you know, spirits and there is stuff going on beyond the world.

217
00:22:42,000 --> 00:23:03,000
But it got to the you know it people didn't understand we're talking about times when people didn't understand germs. Yeah, we didn't understand light. Yeah, no, like they'd they'd light a fire, but they wouldn't understand why.

218
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:13,000
You know cozying up to a fire stopped them getting ill. You know, this is a society which didn't understand damp.

219
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:34,000
It's really interesting that the few, a few helpful customs in a number of religions and societies was if if you are sick, you are placed outside of the community, so that it doesn't spread to everyone else.

220
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:43,000
It's one of the few times when incredibly superstitious people and incredibly smart people would actually get on the same boat. Yeah.

221
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:54,000
But it's so first so first treatment would be death, the next treatment is imprisonment, and now, this is really.

222
00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:08,000
This is really weird, because this actually kept on going. This, this was still ongoing in the late 18th century so in the 1800s or 18th century this was still going on.

223
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:25,000
And I know this because I wrote a, I wrote a paper on. Well, you know, I maybe I didn't write a paper but I read a lot about Joseph mullard William Turner, the person who's the Turner prize that's named after is if you if people still use notes if you take

224
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:39,000
a 20 quid out your wallet if you're lucky enough to have 20 quid, and you turn it over that bloke that bloke his mum was mentally ill.

225
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:56,000
And a prison in those days at least was just a prison for the mentally ill so you take all of the undesirable behaviors, so I have got a story time with Nick, a bit later, which we're going to talk about Bethlehem.

226
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:09,000
Mainly, mainly because it's possibly the most famous of all assignments, especially in this country but potentially even if people don't know it.

227
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:29,000
Just through the words. But yeah, you're right, you're right. So, all right, so then the other ones include electro therapy, beating someone's act some is stoning hysteria I know was treated with sex toys in Victorian women.

228
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:45,000
Okay, yes, so sorry those those those are the quick ones. So, obviously, the reasoning behind mental health issues that they were given 1000 years ago was stuff like, like James said it was like demonic possession, they didn't know that mental health was linked with the brain

229
00:25:45,000 --> 00:26:00,000
they just took it as a demon was in your soul trying to get out. Or you were cursed. That's quite common one. And I've got a bit of a theory behind curses and, and witches because witches.

230
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:26,000
I don't personally believe in witches. However, I do think there is a strong link between the masculine society and witches and mental health. I think there's a strong link between the three which is why I'll get to that in a second anyway, curses sorcery and a vengeful God were a lot of reasons why you might get mental health problems.

231
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:43,000
But one of the earliest form of treatment, other than murder and imprisonment actual treatment somebody's got a problem we want to make it better was trepanning do you know what trepanning is.

232
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:53,000
Same as bloodletting in no no bloodletting is where they cut, and they allow, obviously, it's self explanatory they let blood in order to try and make you feel relief.

233
00:26:53,000 --> 00:27:08,000
Apologies I just, I just remembered that the, the scientific atheistic Romans actually got it somewhat right in that they believed in humours and that mental illness was caused by a wrong type of.

234
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,000
Yeah, the four humans.

235
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:17,000
Exactly, exactly. But sorry we'll go in. Sorry I'm not going to take us off topic on that one. Okay, so what is trapeze and trepanning.

236
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:33,000
Trapeze, trepanning is the use it using rudimentary stone tools to bore a hole into the side of your skull to relieve the pressure on your brain, which I mean when it was successful it was successful.

237
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:50,000
I'll give them that. Like when you had like genuine mental health problems that were caused by brain trauma. Like yeah fantastic. You fell over and you banged your head it caused the brain to swell you end up with mental health problems because of that fine, trepanning bang, there's the swelling gone off your brain.

238
00:27:50,000 --> 00:28:09,000
Is that the earliest form of lobotomy. No, well yes, yes but they wouldn't insert anything into the brain. They would just remove the skull around the brain, and they were, it was, it was proved it was looked at in some of the graves that they found in India.

239
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:32,000
The holes, it was never, they rarely killed the people they were trepanning. Sometimes people would live on for days, weeks, months, even years because the hole itself in the skull would end up with healing marks around it and rounding where the skull had healed.

240
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:49,000
Despite the hole, it wouldn't seal again, but it would heal. But yeah trepanning is one of the reasons I mentioned that as well is there was a book, I don't know if you've read his dark materials.

241
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:58,000
Is that the title of the book, his dark material? No it's the trilogy, it's the trilogy. It's the Northern Lights, Amber Spyglass, Subtle Knife.

242
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:05,000
Yes, yeah the ones where people have familiars that are like called demons. Yeah, yeah.

243
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:33,000
Yeah so there's a man, Will Parry? No John Parry, his dad, John Parry had trepanning performed on him and it was quite a common trait of a certain part of that world. And I just read about it then and then obviously when I came upon it, came upon it when I was researching I was like oh god I know what that is, that's disgusting.

244
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:49,000
Yeah incredibly dangerous. Do you know when the first mental health hospital was founded and where it was founded?

245
00:29:49,000 --> 00:30:18,000
Now this is frustrating because annoyingly I know that there have been a number of quite advanced civilizations throughout history. I'm not talking anti-grav tech or any bullshit like that. I mean, I don't know maybe but like you get certain places at certain times where things have become incredibly advanced.

246
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:28,000
Yeah. You know, like Rome was an example of that and that's why it's... Yeah especially with their irrigation.

247
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:50,000
There's also talk of an ancient, of the first instance of the steam engine going back as far as Philippia. Yeah, I mean they've got pictures and they've got examples of the Baghdad battery, haven't they? Which is the earliest form of an electronic device.

248
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:59,000
It was just a jar with a copper filament and an iron rod and they used to use lemon juice to create an electrical current.

249
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:21,000
So what I'm struggling with here is if we're talking... I'll tell you what Nick, do you mind narrowing this down? Was the first mental health hospital a mental health hospital as we know them today in the western world?

250
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:39,000
Okay. All right. In which case then I'd say that possibly the first mental health hospitals might be an ancient temple like the temple of Apollo where the inscription on the side of it was know thyself.

251
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:52,000
Like I think people would go there for prophecies readings for all kinds of healing availments. Am I closer to the marker or am I way off?

252
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,000
I mean you're... it depends. What date range are you talking?

253
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:12,000
Okay, so this date range would be... I want to put it about maybe a thousand BC.

254
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:26,000
I mean the first recorded actual mental health hospital in history that we know of was in 792 C.

255
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,000
Okay. All right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Whereabouts was it? What did it look like?

256
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,000
It was in... it was in Baghdad.

257
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,000
Okay.

258
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:56,000
I'm trying to find out more about it now. It was... or more of an insane asylum. So it was an area that was... it was an area that was segregated from the city where people could... it was quite picturesque.

259
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:11,000
There was open areas. People could walk around and not... weren't confined to rooms necessarily but you were confined to that part of the town.

260
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,000
Were these people fed or were they like...

261
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:24,000
Yeah. Yeah. They were treated as in they were cared for.

262
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:34,000
Yeah. Back in 792 C.E. I can't remember if that's Anno Domino or BC.

263
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,000
Mainly because I'm not intelligent enough.

264
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:56,000
So I want to go back to the potential link between witches and... and this is only hypothesis. However during my research I quite often end up in philosophical thought... trains of thought when I'm researching the topics that I'm looking into.

265
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,000
And it made... it made a lot of sense, right?

266
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:21,000
Now go with me here. Male society has always been very strong and it would be a lot easier to blame a female for a male weakness than for the male to take the blame themselves.

267
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:40,000
And quite often witches were actually young beautiful women and they were told... they were said to have put spells on quite commonly men.

268
00:34:40,000 --> 00:35:01,000
And those men would eventually have... quite often were married and would end up having to out their feelings to their... their actual spouse.

269
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:13,000
Of which the spouse would go spare and demand that they did something about it. Of which the man would go but it's not my fault she put a spell on me.

270
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:21,000
It's unfortunate that even this language is used today. Yeah. Yeah. That woman is enchanting. Yeah.

271
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:35,000
Annoyingly I wouldn't use that cringeworthy language but yeah you know like unfortunately that sort of thought has crossed my mind.

272
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:46,000
I mean I will be the first to put my hands up and say I have done some stupid things in my time because I thought I was impressing a girl.

273
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:56,000
The reality of it is that I wasn't and the girl wasn't interested at all. But something in my brain made me go do that it will be really impressive.

274
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:02,000
And shock horror it wasn't you know.

275
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:16,000
But the main reason I wanted to say that is because society itself has always been quite heavily male led and males don't like to admit they're weak and yet...

276
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:26,000
And would much rather blame their shortcomings on somebody that doesn't have the ability to fight back as hard.

277
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:40,000
And in that day and age it was young women who didn't have the strength to fight back and they would end up scapegoated because of the infidelious sometimes even infidelious thoughts of that man.

278
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:49,000
Because the women themselves wouldn't have any bloody idea what was going on but the man would blame them.

279
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:59,000
It's kind of sad that what you're literally talking about here is summed up in the lyrics of a Disney song from the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

280
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,000
The one to do with I think it's is it called Hellfire or something?

281
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,000
I can't remember the last time I watched Hunchback of Notre Dame.

282
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:15,000
Yeah it's just I haven't watched it necessarily although I am a Disney fan I haven't watched this one recently but it was...

283
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,000
I'm sure they'll make a live action of it soon.

284
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,000
Maybe, maybe.

285
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,000
But it's about...

286
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:30,000
Really enough the plot of the lyrics of this song is exactly what you're talking about.

287
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:49,000
It's a man who is finding his heartstrings being tugged and pulled and changed in ways that he'd forgotten he could be changed or affected.

288
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,000
Sorry affected is the right word.

289
00:37:51,000 --> 00:38:05,000
And he realizes that what he's feeling goes against his beliefs so therefore it must be her fault.

290
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,000
Yeah, yeah.

291
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,000
And that was the reality of it back then wasn't it?

292
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,000
I say that was obviously with complete confidence that what I'm saying is true.

293
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,000
It's a hypothetical conversation guys please.

294
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,000
It makes a lot of sense in my head anyway even if it's not something that you personally...

295
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:32,000
What's your idea? What do you think? Is there any link between witches and mental health and men's ego shall we say?

296
00:38:32,000 --> 00:39:01,000
Well I think it's well known that the patriarchy has been somewhat toxic and it has come down to the basic biology that when we were fitter women would be able to have children.

297
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,000
I can't create life.

298
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:17,000
And men would tend, not always, but tend to be stronger or to grow slightly bigger or you know along those lines.

299
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:46,000
And I think unfortunately from that I know that what you've said there is true is that you do get this blame and I think it's also interesting that there are elements of this in society today when it comes to, I don't know, women being viewed as being unreasonable for being emotional.

300
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:52,000
Or like you know like hysterical or whatever.

301
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,000
And I think you shouldn't...

302
00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,000
Yeah, where am I going with this?

303
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,000
That should not be the case.

304
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:16,000
I think it's kind of frustrating as well because I'm not sure...

305
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:33,000
Because I'm certain some societies would have and a lot of people, some people would have been even back then, but I don't know how aware people were of subjective and objective reality.

306
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:46,000
Yeah, sorry in short, yes I can understand that. I don't think all mental health is to do necessarily...

307
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:51,000
No, well then I'm sorry I'm expanding on your words here in a way that I know you didn't intend.

308
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,000
I don't think all mental health is necessarily linked with witches.

309
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:09,000
I think that a lot of people accused of being heretics, witches and stuff were just people who saw things in a different light.

310
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:23,000
And I think sometimes those people, either as a result of just the way that they view things or as a result to the way that other people reacted.

311
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:33,000
Like I can't think of a more of a terrible effect that you can have on someone's mental health than being ostracized from your entire community.

312
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:49,000
Yeah, I mean just for the sake of the listeners, James was just making the point that it wasn't necessarily witches that he was linking to, it was supernatural.

313
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:56,000
Obviously we know that historically mental health issues were supernatural, they were seen as supernatural.

314
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:03,000
Which is why James was saying, I don't think previous, it wasn't just about witchcraft, it was about supernatural in general, wasn't it?

315
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:15,000
So absolutely, I think perceptions were, as I said back then, it was supernatural in some way.

316
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:29,000
It was either a god, or it was witchcraft, or it was sorcery, but reality now, like the sensible educated human now understands that mental health is down to lifestyle normally.

317
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:41,000
Or the pressures of society, or it's your brain's and body's way of saying something's wrong without actually going, like your limbs falling off.

318
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:51,000
You were right, I'm just going through my notes here so I'm trying to catch back up with where we were.

319
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:59,000
You were right, absolutely throughout the middle ages, the most common forms of treatment for mental health issues,

320
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:14,000
and when we say mental health issues I mean being possessed, and obviously having a demon living inside your soul, that quite commonly were beaten to death, or the demon was tried to be beaten out of them.

321
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:26,000
They were tortured, tied down, because they were sick people that had evil things inside them and they had to be drawn out with thumb screws and stuff.

322
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:41,000
And sometimes they'd even be just imprisoned. Imprisonment was the most common, I think is the most commonly used method of treatment throughout history for mental health issues.

323
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:46,000
Don't understand it, lock them away. Don't want to see them, put them in a cage.

324
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:59,000
To the point where even now, in certain countries in the world, normally those with an intense sense of familial pride,

325
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:11,000
they will still lock their mentally unwell relatives in their basement, or put them in a home.

326
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:23,000
Quite often, if you go somewhere, I'm using a generalisation here, but if you look at China for example, historically, they wouldn't necessarily put someone in a home.

327
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:27,000
Their family would look after that person if they were unwell.

328
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:32,000
But if they were mentally unwell, they would be locked in the basement of their house.

329
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,000
Nobody would know that person exists.

330
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:47,000
And it was the same in the western world. All throughout Europe, up through the middle ages, even into the early 16th, late 17th even,

331
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:57,000
you wouldn't necessarily put your loved one in, or your relative I should say, in a mental hospital.

332
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:04,000
You would look after them yourself. And by look after them yourself I mean lock them in the basement.

333
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:16,000
Quite often, rich families would renege their responsibility onto their servants, and have their servants look after the mentally unwell person.

334
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:23,000
They would abandon them on the streets and let them become beggars.

335
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:32,000
Completely do away with them, because the shame of having a mentally unwell member of the family was too much.

336
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:40,000
They would hide them or get rid of them. Thank God that's changed, otherwise I would have been screwed at a young age.

337
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:47,000
I think it's frustrating as well because there are so many different levels of mental unwellness.

338
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:58,000
So what you're describing there is when someone is mentally unwell to the point where they can no longer communicate,

339
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:07,000
or, and I hate to say it this way, but unfortunately, possibly I am just being a bit dark here,

340
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:18,000
it just sounds like, or the level of mental health that you're talking about there is where someone can no longer be controlled,

341
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:28,000
or can no longer behave, or can no longer meet the expectations of society.

342
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:55,000
Society expects you to commune with most people who address you directly, to only become angry when seriously aggravated,

343
00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:14,000
or when you're incredibly angry and normally it's the result of someone else's provocation.

344
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:25,000
So somebody who's mentally unwell to the point where they would attack someone would know, you know what, it's frustrating that this is the thing,

345
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:47,000
but there are so many, I don't know, it's interesting that throughout history madness is used as this derogatory label to,

346
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:57,000
it's used as an excuse to take away your rights as a human being under the guise of you, the conscious part of your mind,

347
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:06,000
the thing that makes you a thinking human is even no longer there or does not function.

348
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:13,000
Yes, so if I was talking about that professionally, obviously having the care experience that I've got, we call that mental capacity.

349
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:27,000
Do you have the mental capacity to make decisions for your own, make decisions of fair judgement on your own care, your own life, your own finances,

350
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:33,000
all of those things, those are the things that you would quite commonly be assessed if you're old and you're in a care home,

351
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:43,000
or if you're being cared for at all, or if you, I mean the last places I worked in were mental health homes,

352
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:55,000
predominantly for those with autism or other conditions that affect the neurological development of individuals.

353
00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:05,000
And I mean, I've got to say there was a lady, I won't name names obviously, it wouldn't be professional of me,

354
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:13,000
but it was a lady who had been in mental health homes her entire life, she was 74 years old this lady,

355
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:26,000
she came from, she lived in one of the oldest asylums in the area, one of the last asylums to shut in the UK,

356
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:36,000
and when she was young, as soon as she was put into this mental health hospital, the first thing they did was they removed her teeth.

357
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:46,000
They removed her teeth not because she was a threat of biting, but to remove the risk that it could ever happen.

358
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:57,000
That was quite common practice, to remove people's teeth, to stop the risk of you being bitten,

359
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:06,000
so whether she would ever have bitten anyone, let's just take it away, you know?

360
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:18,000
And the saddest thing about this lady was that she was the most adorable person, kind, gentle, and nobody visited her,

361
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,000
she had no family that came to see her in all the time that I was in that home.

362
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:33,000
The same can be said for a lot of the people that I cared for, they were put into a home where their loved ones had the conscience cleared,

363
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:38,000
and we put them somewhere, they're being looked after, that's all that matters, and then they just got on with their life,

364
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:55,000
and left them there, you know? And it was upsetting for me, being, what, 2019, 2018, 2017, and yet people were just dumped,

365
00:50:55,000 --> 00:51:02,000
don't want to look after you, you're too much asshole, off you go.

366
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:10,000
They're still your loved ones, you know what I mean? Is it their fault that they're in that state?

367
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:17,000
No. So why treat them like it's their fault? Is it your fault that they're in that state? No.

368
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:23,000
So why not just look at them with love? You know?

369
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:35,000
Anyway, I don't want to go on a dark turn, but the treatments of some mental health, even now, is still in the wrong direction, I think.

370
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:45,000
But treatment has got a lot better, I mean, we don't use electroconvulsive therapy anymore, that's a positive.

371
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:55,000
I mean, did that ever work? No! You have to ask, because there's got to be, with everything...

372
00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:03,000
But it's like lobotomies, did lobotomies ever work? If anybody doesn't know what a frontal lobotomy is...

373
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:12,000
It did make the people less violent, and it didn't always kill them. No.

374
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:21,000
So you're right, did it work in that? Did it remove their... it worked in that it removed their violent tendencies.

375
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,000
It did not make, it did not cure them by any stretch of the embankment.

376
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:38,000
So the theory behind a lobotomy is that in the frontal lobe of the brain, it controls your mood and a lot of your behaviours, your choices that you make surrounding those behaviours.

377
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:48,000
So what doctors thought would be a great idea is to place and implement, which I can only describe as an ice pick, into the soft tissue above the eye.

378
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:58,000
Hammer it until it disconnects the nerves that connect the frontal lobe to the rest of the brain, therefore shutting off your ability to have moods.

379
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:11,000
When it didn't kill you, it rendered the person extremely complicit for a very long time, until they died.

380
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:29,000
Normally because they did something completely stupid, because they didn't have that regulative part of their brain to tell them that was a stupid idea.

381
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:43,000
I'm having terrifying times. Okay. So let me go into a little bit about Bethlehem Hospital.

382
00:53:43,000 --> 00:54:01,000
So Bethlehem Hospital is, if you don't know it by name, that's not necessarily strange. It was founded, it was established in 1247 in the UK.

383
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:18,000
It was established in 1247 and still exists today. That is the most incredible thing about this hospital. It still exists as Bethlehem Hospital today.

384
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:36,000
Bethlehem Hospital is where we get the term Bedlam from. Craziness, insanity, Bedlam. Yeah, that's where it comes from. It's a bastardisation of the word Bethlehem.

385
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:51,000
It was a workhouse, if you don't know what a workhouse is. Workhouses were places where poor people could go work and then have lodgings and food provided to them free of charge.

386
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:59,000
As long as they worked, they were able to live in these houses. Now, workhouses were almost the first asylums.

387
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:10,000
People with unwell people quite often took them to workhouses and made them work in order to get them out of their house.

388
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:19,000
I don't know if you've seen Of Mice and Men, but I always think of Lenny going to that farm.

389
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:30,000
Think about that as a workhouse. They provided food and board and they work. Admittedly, Lenny's friend doesn't have mental health issues.

390
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:37,000
Or maybe he does. I don't know if mental health issues is the right word. Neurological development issues, I suppose, is the right wording there.

391
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:45,000
Lenny certainly does. And we all know what happened to Lenny if you've watched the film or read the books.

392
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:57,000
Anyway, so it was originally started by the Church of Bethlehem. It was a religious organisation.

393
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:06,000
All who lived there would have had a star sewn into their clothing to show its affiliation with the order.

394
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:21,000
It was eventually claimed by the Crown in 1350. The name Bethlehem Hospital was bastardised into Bethlehem Hospital and that's as it remained until today.

395
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:31,000
In 1403 the hospital would greet its first six mental health patients.

396
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:42,000
So obviously in 1247 it was a workhouse. In 1403 it would become more of a mental health hospice.

397
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:50,000
It's interesting that workhouses, I always used to think of workhouses as being very much a Victorian thing.

398
00:56:50,000 --> 00:57:04,000
They still existed in the Victorian days but they were less common I suppose in 1247.

399
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:11,000
But I suppose more than anything they would have been a religious institute like I said. It was started by the Church of Bethlehem.

400
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:20,000
So it wouldn't have been set up privately like they quite commonly were back in Victorian days.

401
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:26,000
Workhouses were quite often houses that were owned by a lord and lady.

402
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:39,000
They would typically be owned by a lord and lady who would make money off the fact that people were working essentially for free.

403
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:52,000
Yeah it's annoying as well because these things were in some instances, not in all, in some instances were seen as a charitable venture.

404
00:57:52,000 --> 00:58:15,000
The fact that because you had people who if you didn't have a skill, if you weren't a member of a guild, if you didn't have existing property or a way to provide for yourself, it provided somewhere for you to go.

405
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:29,000
The problem is though, that yes it provided somewhere for you to go, but these places, they are very rarely described in any positive light.

406
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,000
No that's it.

407
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:45,000
At all. Unfortunately you went there because you had no other choice in order to get the bare basics of life and the work was not pleasant. It was unskilled but it was not pleasant.

408
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:54,000
It was hard work, back breaking work. And as soon as you weren't able to work, you weren't able to stay there either. You were out.

409
00:58:54,000 --> 00:59:06,000
So it was a one trick thing. If you got injured because of the work, there was an insurance to pay you off for being injured at work.

410
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:13,000
If you were injured at work, it was quite commonly your fault. So you were stopped working.

411
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:29,000
Another example of the poor standards is that in 1403 when these six mentally held patients joined Bethlehem Hospital, how do you suppose they were treated?

412
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:44,000
They were locked in manacles alone and the demons that possessed them were beaten out of them. A theme which would last for the next 400 years.

413
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:52,000
The imprisonment and beating of patients anyway. It was a theme that evolved.

414
00:59:52,000 --> 01:00:00,000
Again, all that does is it forces the animalistic part of the human being.

415
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:05,000
The red blooded, instinctual part of the human being to enter that fight or flight state.

416
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:23,000
Or into that coward state to be afraid to enter that almost neonatal childish infantile state of fear.

417
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:32,000
Did things ever get better at this hospital?

418
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:43,000
As I said, it still exists today. I would like to think that that meant that it got better.

419
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:50,000
But history wasn't so kind. In 1619, Helkire Crook was appointed by the King.

420
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:59,000
It was the first time a mental health specialist was appointed to run the mental health hospital.

421
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:05,000
That's 1619. It had been open for over 400 years by that point.

422
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:12,000
It was the first time a mental health, as I said loosely, specialist ran the hospital.

423
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:22,000
He had released a book which later came out that it was completely plagiarised from a number of different papers that were written by different people about the brain and body.

424
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:30,000
He was eventually investigated when they found out that he had plagiarised his book.

425
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:42,000
They investigated him at the hospital and found that he had been extorting the patients that he was caring for by not feeding them in order to pocket the money they were paying for their room and board.

426
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:48,000
Fucking ridiculous.

427
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:56,000
He was unseated and replaced by a member of the King's choosing again.

428
01:01:56,000 --> 01:02:06,000
The site itself, Bethlehem Hospital has been open for 800 years, nearly 800 years.

429
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,000
However, it's not been in the same site.

430
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:19,000
The first time it moved was because the original site was built over a sewer and that sewer started overflowing into the courtyard.

431
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:29,000
The King decided that it was unsanitary to have these people cared for in a cesspit essentially.

432
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:33,000
They decided they would move the site.

433
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:45,000
They relocated to Moorfields in London and this is where it actually got the name Bedlam.

434
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:51,000
The Munro family took over for the next century and a quarter.

435
01:02:51,000 --> 01:03:05,000
It was thought this was the darkest time with treatments becoming more torturous in a hospital which now could house over 150 patients.

436
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:12,000
Now I'm aware that there were worse places that existed throughout the years of the asylum.

437
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:22,000
However, the reason I picked this one out was because it existed as I said for nearly 800 years.

438
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:30,000
During that time can you imagine the amount of people that were, in inverted commas, treated for mental health illnesses.

439
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:45,000
Especially given the fact that by the late 17th century they were caring for upwards of 150 people at a time.

440
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:58,000
Using methods such as electroconvulsive therapy, insulin shock therapy and lobotomies all performed at this hospital.

441
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:06,000
What is insulin shock therapy? Isn't that insulin for diabetes?

442
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,000
Yeah, insulin is produced by the pancreas.

443
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:18,000
Let me get up the authentic description.

444
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:34,000
Insulin shock therapy or insulin coma therapy was a form of psychiatric treatment in which patients were repeatedly injected with large doses of insulin in order to produce daily comas over several weeks.

445
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,000
Wow.

446
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:41,000
Do you know when it was introduced?

447
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,000
When was it introduced and I'm hoping it's been banned?

448
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:48,000
It was introduced in 1927.

449
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:49,000
No, get out.

450
01:04:49,000 --> 01:05:02,000
And it was used extensively in the 40s and 50s mainly for schizophrenia before falling out of favour and being replaced by neuroleptic drugs in the 1960s.

451
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:10,000
Well again, that's completely understandable. Just like, cool, we don't know what to do with you. You can spend your life asleep.

452
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:23,000
Yeah, I mean, were people with frontal lobotomies any better? They were basically asleep. They were essentially turned into zombies.

453
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:31,000
I suppose people that had insulin shock therapy had the ability to wake up from their coma and go on with their life.

454
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:36,000
But there's no going back from a frontal lobotomy, I'll tell you that.

455
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:45,000
So yeah, two more relocations between the 16th century and the 20th century.

456
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:53,000
And in 1950 it was eventually incorporated into the NHS where it remains today.

457
01:05:53,000 --> 01:06:05,000
And although treatments were not as brutal as some asylums, as I said, I think the longevity of this hospital makes it possibly one of the worst asylums to have ever been.

458
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:12,000
The worst asylums to have ever existed, you think, are the amount of people that it would have treated in the most barbaric forms.

459
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:23,000
OK, maybe not at the intensity, at some of the asylums from around the world, but the numbers, the numbers, Mason.

460
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:40,000
We'll have a little bit of a debrief following that, shall we? So I'm going to ask you, who do you think has the highest level of depression?

461
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:49,000
Which country has the highest level of depression? Percentage. Let's go percentage per population first.

462
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,000
Sweden.

463
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:57,000
Sweden has the highest percentage of depression.

464
01:06:57,000 --> 01:07:07,000
Yeah, I'd say. Yeah, I reckon it's going to be one of the wealthy.

465
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:22,000
I'm going to say, think global events that may cause depression.

466
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:26,000
What are we talking, USA?

467
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:37,000
No, Ukraine. Ukraine is currently, understandably, the highest in percentage.

468
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:41,000
Yeah, that's a. Second place is the US.

469
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:51,000
It's absolutely. Ukraine has 6.7% of its total population suffering or reported to have suffered from suffering from depression.

470
01:07:51,000 --> 01:08:08,000
Understandably, given the war in Ukraine. However, Ukraine's Ukraine's population is 10% that of the US at 35 million.

471
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:31,000
The US has 335 million individuals living within its borders, at least, and its population, its percentage of depressed population is at 6.5% or 17.5 million people.

472
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:42,000
I should point out that is the third highest level, like the number of depressed people within the world.

473
01:08:42,000 --> 01:09:06,000
OK, beaten only by China and India, whose population is over a billion each. And their percentage of population is 4.2 and 4.5 respectively.

474
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:17,000
The US is ridiculously depressed in comparison.

475
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:21,000
That's really something to consider.

476
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:36,000
It's also sad in that America was founded on a number of things, but isn't the pursuit of happiness one of them? Yeah, love, being the pursuit of happiness.

477
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:48,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The I think the thing that lets them down is their choice of treatment for mental health problems.

478
01:09:48,000 --> 01:10:05,000
Now, there is, they do heavily use verbal therapies, which I think is possibly one of the most positive forms of treatment for mental health, stuff like counseling.

479
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:20,000
However, they follow that up with the administration of serotonin inhibitors, other neurological drugs.

480
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:43,000
If you actually read the side effects of these medications, quite often the side effects are to induce suicidal thoughts or to induce anxiety and nervousness, which are going to lead to mental health problems.

481
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:54,000
You know, and the other thing to be mindful of in the US is that pharmaceutical companies are some of the biggest money spinners.

482
01:10:54,000 --> 01:11:04,000
And why would they want to cure your depression when they can make a lot of money off it?

483
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:14,000
People say about the NHS, we need to privatize our health care. The minute you privatize health care, you make being sick a business.

484
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:20,000
When you make being sick a business, you do away with any kind of need for cures.

485
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:26,000
It all becomes treatment because treatment is a monthly subscription. A cure is a one time deal.

486
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:34,000
I think that's the problem with US. I think their privatized health care has led to conditions not being cured.

487
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:46,000
Companies not seeking to get people better because if they made the entire country better, they wouldn't have a business anymore.

488
01:11:46,000 --> 01:12:06,000
I won't go down this route properly, but I'm just going to throw out there that medical debt is either the third or second largest cause of personal bankruptcy in the US.

489
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:14,000
Well, do you know how much it costs to have a baby in the US?

490
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:18,000
And I'm assuming this isn't a backyard tub.

491
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:30,000
No, no, no. This is go on the ward, have doctors deliver your baby. How much are you going to pay?

492
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:33,000
Oh, this is really difficult because there is a huge amount in there.

493
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:50,000
But at the same time, this is a basic human right. 50, 70 years down the line, I don't know what stuff will happen, but this is fundamental to our continuation as a species.

494
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:54,000
So you'd think there would be.

495
01:12:54,000 --> 01:13:00,000
Having a first baby voucher. So you get your first one free.

496
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:09,000
Something like that. Yeah, you know, like there should maybe be a coupon in your tax book.

497
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:13,000
Go on. All right. You know what? You know what? I'm going to be obscene.

498
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:17,000
I'm going to be no. OK, right.

499
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:21,000
Bare minimum.

500
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:28,000
Three and a half thousand pounds or I'll say five thousand dollars.

501
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:35,000
No. The bare minimum. No, no, we're close.

502
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:38,000
OK, so we are talking about the obscene sorts of figure.

503
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:45,000
All right, fine. Fifteen, fifteen thousand dollars.

504
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:48,000
That's where it starts.

505
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:58,000
Double it for the most common price you will pay to have a baby in the US.

506
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:05,000
Do you know how much it costs to call an ambulance to your door?

507
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:11,000
In the US. And this isn't something I've researched. This is just something I know is ridiculous.

508
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:27,000
So people say that every single time a ambulance leaves the pad, as it were, as in leaves its designated station at a hospital, it costs the NHS eight hundred pounds.

509
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:31,000
Now, considering that's in dollars, that's going to be, I don't know, somewhere around.

510
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:36,000
Fourteen hundred, twelve hundred. Yeah, it's going to be around twelve hundred.

511
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:45,000
OK, so we're looking. So assuming that it's the same and we're looking at the same sort of stuff here, then that's twelve hundred.

512
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:51,000
I'm going to assume that the minimum markup would put it at two thousand dollars.

513
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:56,000
Six.

514
01:14:56,000 --> 01:15:00,000
Seriously. Six thousand dollars to have an ambulance come to your door.

515
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:08,000
Basically, if you get ill in the US. Tough.

516
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:16,000
Anyway, yeah, absolutely. You can see why health is a common form of bankruptcy in the US.

517
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:20,000
You can also see why mental health problems exist so predominantly in the US.

518
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:25,000
There's so much pressure on people to stay well.

519
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:30,000
And to stay OK and to continue earning. My God.

520
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:40,000
The reason I kind of go over that is because the US have always prided themselves on treating mental health the right way.

521
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:44,000
As a matter of fact, when I was working in the care home that he used to work in,

522
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:58,000
the format of treatment that we used to use to support the individuals was originally developed in America.

523
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:06,000
However, when it came to us, to the UK, we added the UK's touch on it.

524
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:18,000
It was called Pro Act Skip, which is the positive range of actions to avoid crisis and use therapies, strategies for crisis intervention and prevention.

525
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:26,000
Namely, it's how do you get someone that can't communicate to you what they need and find out what they need?

526
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:32,000
And on the absolute last resort, how do you help someone that is in crisis,

527
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:40,000
that is having a meltdown and may be causing injury to themselves or to local people or to the staff?

528
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:44,000
How do you control that situation? And that's why I used to train.

529
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:52,000
Now, the reason I bring that up is the US have always been very, very heavy on control and restraint.

530
01:16:52,000 --> 01:17:00,000
However, they developed this strategy of restraining people in the least harmful possible way.

531
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:09,000
It comes over to the UK and we add the there is no alternative before using that strategy.

532
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:15,000
We exhaust every other effort before that, where we put them in an environment where they're happy,

533
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:21,000
where they have everything they could possibly need and we make their quality of life better.

534
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:26,000
And we get them doing the things they want to be doing in a positive way,

535
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:35,000
meaning you tend to find that negative behaviors like acting out and violence, they've all got a purpose.

536
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:44,000
People are doing that because getting you to understand what it is they actually need is a lot more difficult than just punching you and taking it.

537
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:46,000
Yeah. Yeah.

538
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:57,000
All behavior has a purpose and all that we had to do when like through the training that I used to provide is work out what's the purpose of that behavior?

539
01:17:57,000 --> 01:18:00,000
What are they trying to say? You know?

540
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:13,000
Anyway, the reason I say that is because what I found through my experience is that the best form of treatment for mental health problems is actually love.

541
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:17,000
And I don't want to sound corny when I say that.

542
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:29,000
It starts with you. When I've had mental health issues, the biggest thing that I've done that has helped me is give myself a break.

543
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:35,000
Do you understand how much pressure you put on yourself first thing in the morning to get up, get dressed and get to work

544
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:41,000
and then to maintain a standard that keeps you employed all the way throughout the day?

545
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:50,000
And then you come home and you have to maintain your home life with your kids or you have to maintain your home structure with meals, etc, etc.

546
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:54,000
And then you go to bed and then you go and do it all again the next day.

547
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:58,000
And that wheel keeps turning day after day after day after day.

548
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:08,000
The pressure you put on yourself when predominantly the most fundamental thing that you need to do is wake up in the morning, survive the day and go to sleep.

549
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:13,000
When I have been unwell mentally, that's the pressure that I put on myself.

550
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:21,000
I go, let's start from simple, let's cut it back to basics, let's get up in the morning, let's get through the day, let's go to sleep.

551
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:25,000
No more pressure. Can't do anything else, won't do anything else.

552
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:32,000
Give yourself the time. Let's get through it slowly. One more thing. Let's add the things that are necessary into your life.

553
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:37,000
I need a job in order to pay the rent. Right, let's try and go back to work.

554
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:43,000
But no more pressure. Let's not put pressure on ourselves to maintain these ridiculous standards.

555
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:47,000
Let's just do the work. Yeah?

556
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:52,000
And then eventually you begin to acclimatise, I began to acclimatise myself better.

557
01:19:52,000 --> 01:20:01,000
And it wasn't because I have this wonderful wand of fixing it, I didn't take massive amounts of pharmaceutical drugs to get better.

558
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:11,000
I just took care of myself. I gave myself a break and people around me told me it was okay to do so.

559
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:16,000
Essentially I love myself and the people around me love me too.

560
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:24,000
That's the best cure. That's the best treatment for mental health issues.

561
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:27,000
That's incredibly powerful.

562
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:37,000
Just remember that saying which I see everywhere, that it's okay to not be okay.

563
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:47,000
I think that's a really powerful note and a good thing to end it on there. That's a powerful message there Nick.

564
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:53,000
I think there's a lot more to cover. As there has been with every single topic we've covered.

565
01:20:53,000 --> 01:21:01,000
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good first stab into mental health.

566
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:08,000
Well, thank you all for listening. Thank you for taking the time to get through the podcast with us once again.

567
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:15,000
I hope you all have a wonderful time and we look forward to joining you again on the next one.

568
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,000
Goodbye from me.

569
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:27,000
Goodbye from me.

570
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:57,000
Goodbye from me.